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250mm Railguns. Ishtars. Heavy Missiles

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Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 914	Posted - 2014.11.27 19:50:26 - [1] - Quote These things need changes, and I think most of the community knows it. Why are you not addressing these and instead doing 2% changes to scorch range? Why are you so scared to even talk about the stupidity in the game at the moment that is the Ishtar? Why do you think 250mm rails out-damaging and out-ranging all the alternatives is ok? Why do heavy missiles apply less damage than a flight of light drones? I'm tired of **** posting in all the meaningless "balance" threads with irrelevant changes and just want to see some actual meaningful changes for once in my goddamn life. Some simple tweaks that would make everyone happy are nerfs to 250mm damage, buffs to heavy missile application (its damage can remain pathetic if you really want) and massive fitting reductions for the Ishtar as well as a bandwidth reduction to 100mb. Hey maybe those aren't the answers but at least I'm trying, it really feels like development doesn't care about balance at this stage when the patch involves 2% changes to scorch range while the Ishtar runs rampant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Warde Guildencrantz Tundragon Cynosural Field Theory. 1132	Posted - 2014.11.27 19:56:10 - [2] - Quote rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. TunDraGon Director ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us My ship fits
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 2557	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:02:07 - [3] - Quote Ishtars, they say that drones don't have a size category but that mentality needs to change. Cruiser and Battlecruiser drone ships need to be balanced using medium drones not large drones. -
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 526	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:02:30 - [4] - Quote Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hills bonused for other weapons for gods sakes.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 914	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:03:38 - [5] - Quote Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Damage choice doesn't end up mattering that much when the damage output is so high - and their tracking is in fact not that bad due to the fact that they are cruiser weapons and thus have small turret signature resolution and end up tracking much much better than their battleship equivalent. Heavies do not have obscene projection or reasonable damage, and I don't know how you can say either of those things just after talking about rails. Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Lugh Crow-Slave 234	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:07:46 - [6] - Quote afkalt wrote: Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 916	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:09:57 - [7] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: afkalt wrote: Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 679	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:21:13 - [8] - Quote Capqu wrote: I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you. If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS.
Arronicus Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx 1309	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:25:51 - [9] - Quote Heavies do just fine when you apply that whole 'teamwork' thing. Also rails aren't OP, they're just on the side of being the best medium turret right now. But yes, we know, ishtars are overused. The sooner CCP removes the ability to delegate sentry drones, the sooner we can move on a little.
El Space Mariachi Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 182	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:27:12 - [10] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: afkalt wrote: Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter that's a key difference, heavies will apply a decent (I still wouldn't say they do it exceedingly well) portion of their abysmally low raw damage potential when paired with outside help. Railguns will benefit quite a significant amount when helped by webs to hit a moving target but it's hardly essential to them to hit it, and they certainly don't need a god damned EWAR module to apply full damage to a stationary ship of a similar sig to them, something that can't be said for heavy missile boats. HMLs are single worst weapon system in the game, even worse than medium autocannons. The supposed pros of heavy missiles ; "guaranteed" damage at whatever level (assuming HMLs can catch up to the target), selectable damage type (when many of the hulls they can be used on will punish you for not using kinetic because they only have a hull bonus for scourge), good range (compared to competitors far inferior, are all outweighed by the cons : anaemic DPS even at best and poor application which is mitigated further if the target sneezes in any direction and doesn't just sit still, and excessive vulnerability to smartbombs (shared with cruises and arguably light missiles but more apparent on Cruise/HML boats). HMLs are straight inferior at the moment to all of their competitors both on paper and in a realistic scenario and the playerbase is demonstrating their understanding of this by not ***** using them in pvp, but Fozzie still doggedly sticks to the stance that because they were utterly broken once back when every idiot had a HML drake they don't ever deserve to be viable, let alone competitive. Anhenka wrote:** If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS. If missiles need to worry about explosion velocity and explosion radius, the least railguns should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a web. Not a massive bar FFS. gay gamers for jesus

Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2006	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:32:38 - [11] - Quote Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 917	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:32:43 - [12] - Quote Arronicus wrote: Heavies do just fine when you apply that whole 'teamwork' thing. Also rails aren't OP, they're just on the side of being the best medium turret right now. But yes, we know, ishtars are overused. The sooner CCP removes the ability to delegate sentry drones, the sooner we can move on a little. Delegation honestly hasn't been an issue for the Ishtar pretty much ever. You're wrong about heavies doing "just fine". Even if you manage to apply their paper dps to a target, it is still lower than the alternatives, delayed and destroyable. Having to work harder for less is not balance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
BadAssMcKill ElitistOps 910	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:32:48 - [13] - Quote Also make battlecruisers not suck thx
El Space Mariachi Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 182	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:36:23 - [14] - Quote BadAssMcKill wrote: Also make battlecruisers not suck thx lets be realistic gay gamers for jesus
F3X5ON Zero Fun Allowed 22	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:38:45 - [15] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Capqu wrote: I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you. If turrets need to worry about tracking, the least missiles should have to deal with is that one or two people carry a TP. Not a massive bar FFS. let me bring a rapier to paint stuff for my 300dps hml tengu, instead of just bringing 2 ishtars.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 917	Posted - 2014.11.27 20:43:25 - [16] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu? What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay. Unbonused ship used (Typhoon). Range: http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees. This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km. Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1716	Posted - 2014.11.27 21:20:20 - [17] - Quote It's almost like they are releasing a new small laser using ship, so taking the opportunity to also do some tuning touches to small lasers along side the release of said ship.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 918	Posted - 2014.11.27 21:32:34 - [18] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: It's almost like they are releasing a new small laser using ship, so taking the opportunity to also do some tuning touches to small lasers along side the release of said ship. In the same vein that new ship is going to get zonked by any Ishtar that gives it a glance, why not take this opportunity to do the right thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 527	Posted - 2014.11.27 21:48:40 - [19] - Quote Capqu wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: afkalt wrote: Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you. TIL painters do nothing for guns..... Medium rails SMOKE HML at sub 50km ranges. Anything passed that and travel time kills you.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 527	Posted - 2014.11.27 21:56:23 - [20] - Quote Capqu wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: afkalt wrote: Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you. TIL painters do nothing for guns..... Medium rails SMOKE HML at sub 50km ranges. Anything passed that and travel time kills you. I've posted graphs of this before.

Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 310	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:20:32 - [21] - Quote Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. weakness in tracking is directly mitigated by their increased range. Being able to reduce rad/s with extreme range or by using tracking scripts where arty or beams would need optimal to achieve the same range pretty much negates the "disadvantage" of bad tracking. Damage selectability isn't nearly that big of deal, since every other weapon system is more-or-less subject to similar restrictions (beams obviously, Tremor is kin/exp, most long range missile ships are only bonused for kinetic damage, etc.) and everyone plugs their resist holes anyway Quote: heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. wanna have your mind=blown?? here goes: heavy missiles were never very OP. The big clue is that they were only widely used on two hulls: tengus and drakes (funny how this "OP" weapon system never manifested in the popularity of Cerbs, or Caracals, or Nighthawks). Anyway, Tengus because they're an intrinsically powerful hull, and are currently flexing that power with the oh-so-balanced 250mm railguns, and Drakes mostly because they're mindless and very newbie friendly. Low-SP corps could get all their guys in drakes in a few weeks and have a halfway-decent fleet, while their line members could happily rat in their purger-rigged drakes to fund PVP. Outside of that, blob drakes were a one-trick counter to the AHACs of the day, and even then didn't work very well. Furthermore they got completely slaughtered by battleships, namely Hellcats, were easily countered by firewalls (just like Tengus), and were even more vulnerable to bombing than BS are, having nearly the same sig but about 2/3rds the EHP. In small gangs, drakes were either used as point-and-click low DPS ships for newbies to fly, or as decent kiting ships that could fit a tank, two webs, and a point. For the former, they were terrible and worse than most other BCs, and for kiting they were made completely obsolete by the introduction of tier3 BCs. The ultimate irony is that by the time CCP got around to nerfing HMLs and especially Drakes the metagame had already moved onto bigger and better things, yet out-of-the-loop scrublords on EVE-O are still bleating on about how supposedly broken they were. But hey you're a step ahead of CCP; at least you recognize HMLs suck. watch me be a scurb and get owned
Liam Inkuras Mafia Redux 1347	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:23:52 - [22] - Quote "I may have over buffed Medium Rails a little" - CCP Rise, May 2nd 2014 I wear my goggles at night. Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 311	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:33:41 - [23] - Quote anyway while we're living in a fantasy world where CCP actually takes an interest in the balance of their game, i've compiled an abridged list of things that are a complete joke in PVP for the highly-competent balance wizards of Crowd Control Productions to consider: Medium autocannons Hurricanes Drakes Harbingers Prophecies Brutixes Heavy missiles Cruise missiles Torpedoes Pretty much every tech 1 battleship, but especially the Raven and Whyphoon (named because why would you fly one??) Target spectrum breakers (i forgot these existed for the better part of a year) Pilgrims Every sansha ship Cynabals Dragoons Coraxes Exequror NIs Nighthawks while we're at it, whatever genius thought it was a good idea to give bubble immunity to interceptors needs his brain examined, maybe even replaced watch me be a scurb and get owned
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 926	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:48:56 - [24] - Quote Capqu wrote: Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees.. I wanna draw more attention to this. Unbonused medium rails with absolute worst case damage ammo [Iron], outdpsing heavy missiles significantly across the range of engagement. The railgun can be loaded with much higher dps ammo with equivalent or better tracking at any range the heavies can hit for an even more ridiculous looking graph, not to mention that rails damage application can be augmented by modules where heavy missile cannot. Railgun damage applies instantly, missile damage is delayed. Railgun damage cannot be destroyed, missiles can be smartbombed. How is that considered balanced? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 926	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:51:42 - [25] - Quote I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered *not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Gorski Car 423	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:58:06 - [26] - Quote oy vey my friend you forgot medium autocannons Collect this post
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 681	Posted - 2014.11.27 22:59:22 - [27] - Quote Capqu wrote: I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered *not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are* That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time. Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure. Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed. Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors which are the only thing that can catch them, vagabonds online, whine whine whine! When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 927	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:02:52 - [28] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Capqu wrote: I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered *not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are* That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time. Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure. Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed. Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors, nothing else can catch them, whine whine whine! When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs. Yeah you're right, I think Ishtars are overpowered because I only fly my favourite ships [Ishtars]... You can't trick me CCP Rise, I know that's you on an alt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 927	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:04:23 - [29] - Quote Gorski Car wrote: oy vey my friend you forgot medium autocannons People have PTSD from when Cynabals/Hurricanes were good and will never admit that medium autocannons are trash now. It's a lost cause Gorksi, there is no point in trying - she's gone. If you really loved her, let her go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2007	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:05:09 - [30] - Quote Capqu wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu? What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay. Unbonused ship used (Typhoon). Range: http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees. This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km. Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage. im not getting that... EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"

Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 681	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:05:26 - [31] - Quote Capqu wrote: You can't trick me CCP Rise, I know that's you on an alt. God I wish :) That means I would be currently employed and have decent job security. But then I'd also be living in Iceland with winter coming in..... tough choice.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 927	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:06:36 - [32] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Capqu wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu? What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay. Unbonused ship used (Typhoon). Range: http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees. This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km. Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage. im not getting that... update your eft you may be missing the 500% damage bonus fozzie fell down the stairs and tripped over his keyboard and accidentally added a few patches back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
JEFFRAIDER Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 367	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:08:01 - [33] - Quote Hear hear, tho you'd have better results if your tone didn't sound like you were in the middle of a rectal prolapse surgery.
xXWeedGoku666Xx Freeport Ratting Appreciation Guild Phoebe Freeport Republic 0	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:09:01 - [34] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Capqu wrote: I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered *not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are* I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed The only thing that counters Ishtars are Ishtars. true facts.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 927	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:11:10 - [35] - Quote JEFFRAIDER wrote: Hear hear, tho you'd have better results if your tone didn't sound like you were in the middle of a rectal prolapse surgery. eveo changes a man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 983	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:13:33 - [36] - Quote Viribus wrote: anyway while we're living in a fantasy world where CCP actually takes an interest in the balance of their game, i've compiled an abridged list of things that are a complete joke in PVP for the highly-competent balance wizards of Crowd Control Productions to consider: Medium autocannons Hurricanes Drakes Harbingers Prophecies Brutixes Heavy missiles Cruise missiles Torpedoes Pretty much every tech 1 battleship, but especially the Raven and Whyphoon (named because why would you fly one??) Target spectrum breakers (i forgot these existed for the better part of a year) Pilgrims Every sansha ship Cynabals Dragoons Coraxes Exequror NIs Nighthawks while we're at it, whatever genius thought it was a good idea to give bubble immunity to interceptors needs his brain examined, maybe even replaced corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
Andy Koraka Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion 47	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:35:55 - [37] - Quote 250mm Rails are actually in a good spot, they have a very solid niche but if you rely on them too heavy (like BNI) your enemy will fill the resist hole and come out with some stupid EHP against kin/therm. The other weapon systems just need to be improved to the point that outperforming rails in their intended niches validates the lost range. The gap isn't huge (except for HMLs which are trash), but it needs a lot more than a 2% range change to Scorch. Ishtars though are so hideously broken it's dumb, compared to any other HAC they have an overwhelming advantage in both damage and application. In the Ishtar you combine both selectable damage like Projectiles, 250mm Railgun range/tracking, and do twice the damage of comparable rail boats like the Eagle once they start switching to range ammo.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 486	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:40:08 - [38] - Quote afkalt wrote: Capqu wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: afkalt wrote: Warde Guildencrantz wrote: rails are not broken, if they are OP it would be by a very small margin. Their lack of damage choice and tracking is their weakness. heavies suck indeed, but only in comparison to how OP they were before, they still have obscene projection and reasonable damage. Neither of these statements are true. Medium rails hit too hard and heavy missiles are a complete joke. I mean, I do more DPS fitting rails on hulls bonused for other weapons for gods sakes. Heavies do apply damage exceedingly well you just need to team it up with a bonused painter I don't think you understand what applying damage exceedingly well means if you think it means you require help from another ship bonused specifically to help you. TIL painters do nothing for guns..... Medium rails SMOKE HML at sub 50km ranges. Anything passed that and travel time kills you. I've posted graphs of this before. ...cough...cough...COUGH... If I say now that my missile thread from four weeks ago does make sense now, would it sound really bad if I drop an "I told you so" in? signature
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 983	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:42:16 - [39] - Quote cruisers doing more dps than combat bc's is a little broke Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 313	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:52:04 - [40] - Quote Harvey James wrote: corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get corax is an inferior talwar, there's really no reason for it to be in the game nighthawk has a bizzare slot layout, horrible fitting, and uses missiles without having a rapid light bonus dragoons are just terrible, literally nobody thinks they're good prophecy's are a worse myrmidon, it's just a big slow garbageheap of a ship that does worse damage than most cruisers watch me be a scurb and get owned

Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 987	Posted - 2014.11.27 23:57:48 - [41] - Quote perhaps if they undone the big buff they made too light missiles then the tracking bonus on the corax might be more meaningful Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 486	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:05:28 - [42] - Quote Viribus wrote: Harvey James wrote: corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get corax is an inferior talwar, there's really no reason for it to be in the game nighthawk has a bizzare slot layout, horrible fitting, and uses missiles without having a rapid light bonus dragoons are just terrible, literally nobody thinks they're good prophecy's are a worse myrmidon, it's just a big slow garbageheap of a ship that does worse damage than most cruisers Well the Nighthawk used to be a good command ship, capable of good semi-passive tank, you know back in the day when heavy missiles could be used. Rapid launchers are the worst thing ever to hit Tranquility, that's like giving all cruisers and battlecruisers alike a 400% range and damage bonus to small turrets. Nothing could go wrong. signature
St'oto Hell's Death Squad Enemy Spotted. 2	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:06:34 - [43] - Quote Capqu wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu? What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay. Unbonused ship used (Typhoon). Range: http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees. This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km. Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage. Ok, I have to point out one massive flaw with all of your arguments regarding missiles in general. - You act like EVERY PVP fitted ship in the game carries a smartbomb or two that is specifically designed for negating missiles. When in reality 2% of PVP fits have smartbombs in them. Usually those utility highs are for nos/neut. So repeating "destroyable damage" in every post means nothing. As it has never been a REAL WORLD problem for as long as I've been playing EVE. And that's been 11 years now. Yes missiles can be destroyed - but hardly anyone bothers to do so. They either fight the missile boat and win, or die. They don't bother to mitigate damage with a smartbomb. Instead if they want to mitigate damage they use range(less applied damage) or kiting(going faster then what is it...missile velocity to mitigate damage). NOT SMARTBOMBS! I mean whenever missiles are the "flavor of the month" on the "buff list" everyone uses this "point" in all of their arguments. Which leads me to believe either A) they have no real point to argue on so they have to fall back to this or B) they don't actually PVP at all. Or at least with or against missile boats. EDIT: I mean hell even "guaranteed" utility slots in the case of Marauders usually end up being filled with Neuts/Nos. Not Smartbombs. So the ONE ship in the game that usually has room to put a decent rack of smartbombs - hardly ever does. So please stop using "but they can be destroyed" as a point in your argument.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2023	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:06:37 - [44] - Quote to fix the ishtar follow these stepps. 1. change the sentry optimal range/tracking bonus to medium hybrid turret fall off bonus 2. ???? 3. Profit. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MMcha Broski North 0	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:10:24 - [45] - Quote Well, Cappu, I really must protest. I personally don't see how the Ishtar is at all overpowered. I don't see why heavy drones shouldn't be able to go as fast as warriors on ALL ships inherently. I also don't see why they shouldn't be able to track absolutely anything and carry 2 backup sets of sentries. They already knerfed drones into the ground by preventing people from assigning to a trigger, are you trying to get drones made useless? for god sake man grow up and stop being a little baby. The Endgame of EvE Online being dominated by 1 single ship is not a problem its just because people are too LAZY to counter it! Get good scrub and practice more, perhaps the test server is where you need to go for a while, maybe one day your stupid alliance will be relevant enough to own space. (but i doubt it, LOL) Peace nerds. p.s Keep up the great work CCP you're on track to being the best company at losing subs I have ever subscribed too by simply IGNORING the player base on every issue and having no communication with the general public whatsoever.
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 314	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:14:46 - [46] - Quote St'oto wrote: blah blah blah i've spent a decade in a scrub-filled echochamber i take it you've never heard of the "firewall" before well gather 'round and i'll spin you a yarn of long ago, when people actually flew missile doctrines it used to be common practice to have a few brick-tanked T3s with smartbombs in your fleet to position between your fleet and the drakes or tengus shooting you it was actually very effective fin watch me be a scurb and get owned
El Space Mariachi Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 183	Posted - 2014.11.28 01:32:26 - [47] - Quote St'oto wrote: So repeating "destroyable damage" in every post means nothing. As it has never been a REAL WORLD problem for as long as I've been playing EVE. And that's been 11 years now. Yes missiles can be destroyed - but hardly anyone bothers to do so. They either fight the missile boat and win, or die. They don't bother to mitigate damage with a smartbomb. as viribus pointed out in the post above firewalling used to be an incredibly common counter to drake/thundercat tengu/cruise missile fleets and has even been used recently against anyone unfortunate enough who attempts to use missiles in fleets for some reason (source : i was in one of those fleets). I don't know what you've spent the last 11 years doing but whatever your area of focus in the game, taking five minutes to learn anything about mid-to-large scale fleet fights is not it. of course not everybody fits smartbombs just in case they encounter a heavy missile user in small gang or solo situations because A) nobody uses heavy missiles in small gang or solo (or any) pvp situations and B) fitting reactively to something you aren't certain will be there "just in case" when it gimps the rest of your fit so hard would be ******. It's not the same as fitting ECCM in lowsec because at least in lowsec you're certain to find a falcon(s). None of that says firewalling isn't still a weakness of heavy missiles in large scale encounters, because it quite emphatically is. St'oto wrote:** EDIT: I mean hell even "guaranteed" utility slots in the case of Marauders usually end up being filled with Neuts/Nos. Not Smartbombs. So the ONE ship in the game that usually has room to put a decent rack of smartbombs - hardly ever does. So please stop using "but they can be destroyed" as a point in your argument. Actually I have a smartbomb fit to my Golem right at this very moment see i can bring up an edge case to deflect an argument too but yeah smartbombs are fantastic for killing drones on a marauder and you have the capacity to comfortably fit one alongside a neut and a cyno, so I do. I guess I could also use it to near-totally neutralise a HML drake fleet but if I encounter one of those I'd be more concerned with working out how I'd gone back in time to 2011 and telling my past self not to give away my first character. gay gamers for jesus
Omega Crendraven Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 219	Posted - 2014.11.28 01:49:03 - [48] - Quote Lets not forget the RLML Genocide the slaved Caldari race to the kinetic damage the TE nerf Where is the strong HML, the independent caldari who needs no scourge? now you make "scorch rebalance", the "light missile rebalance", but what about the Ishtar, the 73km Rep range without falloff and siqq t3 subsystem resistance. Listen to valuable feedback dumb brutors, this thread is full of serbian wisdom. fukk thera, fukk the confessor and the scorch, I want the ishtar beheaded and the HML king to return " REMOVE RLML remove rlml you are worst light missile, you are the missile idiot you are the missile smell. return to rubicon. to our hml cousins you may come our fitting. you may live in the hangarGÇª.ahahahaha" CCP Rise
El Space Mariachi Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 183	Posted - 2014.11.28 01:59:50 - [49] - Quote Omega Crendraven wrote: Lets not forget the RLML Genocide the slaved Caldari race to the kinetic damage the TE nerf Where is the strong HML, the independent caldari who needs no scourge? now you make "scorch rebalance", the "light missile rebalance", but what about the Ishtar, the 73km Rep range without falloff and siqq t3 subsystem resistance. Listen to valuable feedback dumb brutors, this thread is full of serbian wisdom. fukk thera, fukk the confessor and the scorch, I want the ishtar beheaded and the HML king to return xaxaxa 6pytna yes one day railgun rascal wil returned to the zoo and hml/scortch overlord reign supreme ishtar spels no match for strong CJIABA tactics fozzie may live in a yurt XAXAXAXA gay gamers for jesus
Zavand Crendraven Rolling Static Gone Critical 3	Posted - 2014.11.28 02:03:24 - [50] - Quote Viribus wrote: anyway while we're living in a fantasy world where CCP actually takes an interest in the balance of their game, i've compiled an abridged list of things that are a complete joke in PVP for the highly-competent balance wizards of Crowd Control Productions to consider: Medium autocannons Hurricanes Drakes Harbingers Prophecies Brutixes Heavy missiles Cruise missiles Torpedoes Pretty much every tech 1 battleship, but especially the Raven and Whyphoon (named because why would you fly one??) Target spectrum breakers (i forgot these existed for the better part of a year) Pilgrims Every sansha ship Cynabals Dragoons Coraxes Exequror NIs Nighthawks while we're at it, whatever genius thought it was a good idea to give bubble immunity to interceptors needs his brain examined, maybe even replaced i dunno cruise missiles seems quite ok and sansha ship seems to kinda work but yea else cant say i disagree. though i think raven and phoon might be tied to torps being quite literal ****

Arthur Aihaken X A X 3969	Posted - 2014.11.28 03:00:09 - [51] - Quote The Ishtar must die. That is all. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 647	Posted - 2014.11.28 03:05:36 - [52] - Quote The question is: how much does the Ishtar need to be nerfed so that it is neither useless nor OP. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 3969	Posted - 2014.11.28 03:09:12 - [53] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: The question is: how much does the Ishtar need to be nerfed so that it is neither useless nor OP. No heavy or sentry drones. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 647	Posted - 2014.11.28 03:12:46 - [54] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: The question is: how much does the Ishtar need to be nerfed so that it is neither useless nor OP. No heavy or sentry drones. This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries? This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 3969	Posted - 2014.11.28 03:15:28 - [55] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries? I think all ships aside from battlecruisers and battleships should be restricted to light and medium drones. No sentries and definitely no Geckos. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 934	Posted - 2014.11.28 08:18:01 - [56] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: The question is: how much does the Ishtar need to be nerfed so that it is neither useless nor OP. I think -25 drone mb & -75m3 drone bay would be a good start. Thats basically making it 20% worse across the board, which might just be enough without looking at doing anything radical like changing what weapon systems it uses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 529	Posted - 2014.11.28 08:35:52 - [57] - Quote Capqu wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: The question is: how much does the Ishtar need to be nerfed so that it is neither useless nor OP. I think -25 drone mb & -75m3 drone bay would be a good start. Thats basically making it 20% worse across the board, which might just be enough without looking at doing anything radical like changing what weapon systems it uses. Drop the drone range bonus and hack the cpu down so they have to chose between range or damage. I'd also nerf the capacitor slightly as it was left from a time when they were expected to fit guns, it's too stable. Drop a mid to a low, force an armor tank. Any combination of the above will work and will do no harm to the in your face brawler fits (which I quite like)
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 284	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:49:52 - [58] - Quote Capqu wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Capqu wrote: Daichi Yamato wrote: Capqu wrote: Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. Careful what you're saying here unbonused medium rails dont project anywhere near as much damage at as much range as unbonused heavies do. nerf tengu? What? Thats just a straight up lie so okay. Unbonused ship used (Typhoon). Range: http://puu.sh/d7Wji/99ea7590a3.png Application: http://puu.sh/d7Wl7/e7a79f690c.png Target used was an Ishtar burning at 45 degrees. This is WITHOUT any tracking mods for the railguns [which the missiles cannot have], and they are already better at every range over 15km. Again, don't forget that missiles deal delayed, destroyable damage. im not getting that... update your eft you may be missing the 500% damage bonus fozzie fell down the stairs and tripped over his keyboard and accidentally added a few patches back Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 936	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:56:43 - [59] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage. try loading higher dps ammo and putting down the crack, there is a reason tengus are flown with rails exclusively in fleet pvp and it's not because noone has heavies trained not to mention even if what you said was true [it isn't] then you have to bare in mind that it is not possible to keep huiginns alive vs railgus and you end up using the weaponsystem that doesn't require stupid amounts of nursing to deal reasonable dps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 487	Posted - 2014.11.28 11:22:25 - [60] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage. Oh gawd, that is so wrong on so many levels, I don't even.. That is like saying that long range turrets and missile are only to be used in scram range. Do you even ships at all? signature

Akemon Numon Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 2	Posted - 2014.11.28 11:34:02 - [61] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Capqu wrote: I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered *not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are* That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time. Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure. Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed. Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors which are the only thing that can catch them, vagabonds online, whine whine whine! When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs. ^ This +1 Learn how to fly what you have and HTFU!
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 534	Posted - 2014.11.28 11:41:40 - [62] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage. ORLY? Rails do more APPLIED dps than max THEORETICAL HML DPS at a max transveral target at 2000+ ms
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 937	Posted - 2014.11.28 11:46:31 - [63] - Quote Akemon Numon wrote: Anhenka wrote: Capqu wrote: I also like that even though a couple of [wrong] people are disagreeing about HMs being underpowered or railguns being overpowered *not a single person has disagreed with how rediculous Ishtars are* That's because we are so damn tired of people whining about it, we don't feel a need to get into an argument about it for the one thousandth time. Was Ishtar highly OP before the drone assist, nerfs, the sentry drone changes, and the reduction of the hull bonus? Sure. Is it still OP? I personally think not, that it's mainly people too damn lazy to fly the right ships in a way that can counter them instead of flying their favorite ship and then whining that since an Ishtar is a hard counter to the ships that they like, it needs to be nerfed. Remember vagabonds back 3-4 years ago? People whining about them constantly! "Whine whine vagabonds running through my gatecamps, outrunning my fleets, killing my ceptors which are the only thing that can catch them, vagabonds online, whine whine whine! When the solution was always to fly something besides only ever Drakes or Hurricane. I mean christ on a crutch, it's the same thing now. People don't want to fly the ships that kill ishtars fairly easily, so they whine that they must be OP and in need of nerfs. ^ This +1 Learn how to fly what you have and HTFU! deep core mining weighs in with a htfu classic thanks eveo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Zavand Crendraven Rolling Static Gone Critical 3	Posted - 2014.11.28 12:29:39 - [64] - Quote afkalt wrote: King Fu Hostile wrote: Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage. ORLY? Rails do more APPLIED dps than max THEORETICAL HML DPS at a max transveral target at 2000+ ms id have to say its kind of a bad idea to add drones on specific ships when comparing 2 weapons systems because you dont really get any objectivity bonuses with it.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 534	Posted - 2014.11.28 13:24:24 - [65] - Quote So take them off. Rails still crush them. And that's not even the 250s.... The point you're missing is HML have application issues vs a shield tanked MWD target. A sig the nearly the size of a poco! Before the "lolpainters" crowd arrive, painters aid the guns JUST as much. The ONLY use for HML is pounding fury missiles into a brawling BC or bigger out of their optimal. And even then, guns are better.
Holy Jihad Warrior Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2014.11.28 16:35:36 - [66] - Quote Can you stop leaqing, leaq would not approve of this.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 287	Posted - 2014.11.28 16:37:32 - [67] - Quote afkalt wrote: King Fu Hostile wrote: Put one web on the target and HMs suddenly outdamage rails from 0-62.9km, no matter how many tracking comps you pile on, while having twice as much alpha and selectable damage. ORLY? Rails do more APPLIED dps than max THEORETICAL HML DPS at a max transveral target at 2000+ ms Yeah, really, put web on it.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 539	Posted - 2014.11.28 17:31:37 - [68] - Quote How is that going to help when the HML max theoretical paper dps is STILL less than APPLIED rail damage to a moving target. I apply more damage with 200mm rails to a moving cruiser target with 2km/s transversal than a HML applies to a stationary, shield tanked battleship. You can't break 300 DPS with a caracal and 2 damage mods. I'm APPLYING 360 with 200mm rails in a thorax with 2 damage mods. Faction ammo in all cases. You're not even being truthful. Your claims are demonstrably false.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 945	Posted - 2014.11.28 19:34:58 - [69] - Quote With a game like EVE I guess it's unfair to expect everyone to know all the facts relating to all weapons - but please for all of our sakes, take a look before posting your opinions on balance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Zavand Crendraven Rolling Static Gone Critical 3	Posted - 2014.11.28 19:44:56 - [70] - Quote afkalt wrote: So take them off. Rails still crush them. And that's not even the 250s.... The point you're missing is HML have application issues vs a shield tanked MWD target. A sig the nearly the size of a poco! Before the "lolpainters" crowd arrive, painters aid the guns JUST as much. The ONLY use for HML is pounding fury missiles into a brawling BC or bigger out of their optimal. And even then, guns are better. isnt it better for the person making the argument to take them off? im not saying that your wrong just saying drones on a caracal and a thorax is different and if anything that would have to go with individual ship balance rather than weapon system balance. i mean if you would compare how fast a car is vs a boat you cant have the car being dragged by an airplane.

Catherine Laartii Dominion Fleet Group Templis CALSF 413	Posted - 2014.11.28 19:45:15 - [71] - Quote Viribus wrote: Harvey James wrote: corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get corax is an inferior talwar, there's really no reason for it to be in the game nighthawk has a bizzare slot layout, horrible fitting, and uses missiles without having a rapid light bonus dragoons are just terrible, literally nobody thinks they're good prophecy's a worse myrmidon, it's just a big slow garbageheap of a ship that does worse damage than most cruisers Coraxes and dragoons are excellent brawler boats in FW since they both can fit a fairly respectable tank while dealing quite a bit of dps at close ranges. That said, I do agree with you completely about the prophecy and dragoon. Unlike the armageddon, the prophecy lacks any kind of focus for its high slots. In an ideal setting, all of them (including the arbitrator now that I think about it) could ignore the weirdness of missiles of an amarr boat and go with a full rack of guns. Their bonuses work alright on them as they stand, they just need a little extra fitting room to use a full rack of guns; the goddamn gallente drone boats all get at least some usability with turrets; why should amarr drone boats be exempt from doing something so simple as fitting a full rack of class-specific turrets?
Catherine Laartii Dominion Fleet Group Templis CALSF 413	Posted - 2014.11.28 19:52:53 - [72] - Quote In regards to heavy missiles specifically, I would like to see them brought back to their pre-nerf stats, albeit with their current paper-dps stats intact. They should be applying their damage MUCH better than the do now, and the idea that they should somehow only be able to hit cruisers is a joke since their sig even with good bonuses is quite a bit over cruiser sig radius. Raven and typhoon getting bonuses to heavy missiles application bonuses along with firing rate for RHML would also be ideal. Raven has a lot of potential in fleet with that, and 50% moar capacity on the rapid heavies and rapid lights would be perfect. Or...just scrapping the burst dps idea would be nice, kthnx.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 684	Posted - 2014.11.28 19:58:57 - [73] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: In regards to heavy missiles specifically, I would like to see them brought back to their pre-nerf stats, albeit with their current paper-dps stats intact. They should be applying their damage MUCH better than the do now, and the idea that they should somehow only be able to hit cruisers is a joke since their sig even with good bonuses is quite a bit over cruiser sig radius. Raven and typhoon getting bonuses to heavy missiles application bonuses along with firing rate for RHML would also be ideal. Raven has a lot of potential in fleet with that, and 50% moar capacity on the rapid heavies and rapid lights would be perfect. Or...just scrapping the burst dps idea would be nice, kthnx. I have to smile every time I see someone propose that just about anything could make cruise missile ravens a viable fleet comp for large groups. Oh look, someones firing at me from 70km... good thing I have 7 seconds to align and warp out, or get even the laziest of logi prelocked on me. Edt: My bad, you said heavies. Still, not seeing a great future for BS's with a weapon that only hits out to 80 km with a significant travel time. I saved myself many times back in the drake days by just warping out during fleet fights long before missiles arrived.
Catherine Laartii Dominion Fleet Group Templis CALSF 413	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:03:13 - [74] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries? I think all ships aside from battlecruisers and battleships should be restricted to light and medium drones. No sentries and definitely no Geckos. I second the opinion that drone boats, specifically of the cruiser class, should be relegated to using medium and small drones. It gives them enough utility to be able to easily engage ships smaller than them, but they should NOT be able to field battleship damage to ships larger than them. To counter this loss though, I would propse that the prophecy and myrmidon respectively get their drone mbit and m3 increased by 25 and 50 respectively, making them specifically usable with heavies and sentries. This gives a clear role for heavy damage without being broken all to hell like the ishtar is with having excellent mobility to top it off. I would be fine with having the ishtar and ishkur respectively get a repair bonus; i think an armor rep bonus would be a nice offset to losing all that dps on the ishtar. Rolling the ishkur's drone bay bonus into the hull would be effortless.
Catherine Laartii Dominion Fleet Group Templis CALSF 413	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:07:06 - [75] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: In regards to heavy missiles specifically, I would like to see them brought back to their pre-nerf stats, albeit with their current paper-dps stats intact. They should be applying their damage MUCH better than the do now, and the idea that they should somehow only be able to hit cruisers is a joke since their sig even with good bonuses is quite a bit over cruiser sig radius. Raven and typhoon getting bonuses to heavy missiles application bonuses along with firing rate for RHML would also be ideal. Raven has a lot of potential in fleet with that, and 50% moar capacity on the rapid heavies and rapid lights would be perfect. Or...just scrapping the burst dps idea would be nice, kthnx. I have to smile every time I see someone propose that just about anything could make cruise missile ravens a viable fleet comp for large groups. Oh look, someones firing at me from 70km... good thing I have 7 seconds to align and warp out, or get even the laziest of logi prelocked on me. Edt: My bad, you said heavies. Still, not seeing a great future for BS's with a weapon that only hits out to 80 km with a significant travel time. I saved myself many times back in the drake days by just warping out during fleet fights long before missiles arrived. It's more having a missile battleship with viability vs smaller targets being a good thing; drone boats already have it, and the hybrid and laser boats can push it somewhat with good tracking speed. RHML raven with range bonus to heavies would make an excellent anti-cruiser boat if it was given a chance...same with the phoon getting an explosion velocity bonus to heavies. Or just ditching the explo bonus and getting a drone bonus. Because it's drones online anyway; might as well give it to another ship that already has the drone bay and bandwidth to make it work. :P
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 684	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:08:40 - [76] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries? I think all ships aside from battlecruisers and battleships should be restricted to light and medium drones. No sentries and definitely no Geckos. I second the opinion that drone boats, specifically of the cruiser class, should be relegated to using medium and small drones. It gives them enough utility to be able to easily engage ships smaller than them, but they should NOT be able to field battleship damage to ships larger than them. To counter this loss though, I would propse that the prophecy and myrmidon respectively get their drone mbit and m3 increased by 25 and 50 respectively, making them specifically usable with heavies and sentries. This gives a clear role for heavy damage without being broken all to hell like the ishtar is with having excellent mobility to top it off. I would be fine with having the ishtar and ishkur respectively get a repair bonus; i think an armor rep bonus would be a nice offset to losing all that dps on the ishtar. Rolling the ishkur's drone bay bonus into the hull would be effortless. Cause it's not like a hull armor rep bonus is completely useless on anything that's not either meant for 1v1's, lolfits like triple rep myrmidons, or PvE.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 542	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:09:27 - [77] - Quote Zavand Crendraven wrote: afkalt wrote: So take them off. Rails still crush them. And that's not even the 250s.... The point you're missing is HML have application issues vs a shield tanked MWD target. A sig the nearly the size of a poco! Before the "lolpainters" crowd arrive, painters aid the guns JUST as much. The ONLY use for HML is pounding fury missiles into a brawling BC or bigger out of their optimal. And even then, guns are better. isnt it better for the person making the argument to take them off? im not saying that your wrong just saying drones on a caracal and a thorax is different and if anything that would have to go with individual ship balance rather than weapon system balance. i mean if you would compare how fast a car is vs a boat you cant have the car being dragged by an airplane. It was ages ago I posted those. Here is a current version: [Caracal, HML] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Overdrive Injector System II Damage Control II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Faint Warp Disruptor I Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I 253 DPS vs [Thorax, Thorax Rails] Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Tracking Enhancer II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Faint Warp Disruptor I Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M 200mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I 408 DPS (CNAM) 306 DPS (CNThor) 204 DPS (CNTung) CNThor CNAM CNTung I forgot to highlight the target line in the first image. Transversal is 2117m/s. Even iron edges HML. These are the fits I had handy - sometimes people object to the TC II. The results do not massively swing without it. Essentially I can out DPS heavy missiles shooting a 2km/s transversal target with 200mm rails from 6km--50km. Target is a shield tanked MWD cruiser - and faction heavies barely chip the paint. Imagine an AB armor boat....or if the transversal isnt as crappy. If I lose nearly 33% of already anaemic DPS shooting a target with a sig of 953m...I don't even know what to say tbh. Painters boost the rails further, webs boost the rails further. Rails have the higher ceiling and get there easier and faster to boot. I fail to see how much clearer I can make this (not aimed at quotee, just in general) Just for laughs - shooting an ABing Armored ashimmu (sig 130) Depressing, if you use missiles.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 995	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:15:29 - [78] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: This would extend to the Vexor as well? So would BC's be able to use heavies and sentries? I think all ships aside from battlecruisers and battleships should be restricted to light and medium drones. No sentries and definitely no Geckos. I second the opinion that drone boats, specifically of the cruiser class, should be relegated to using medium and small drones. It gives them enough utility to be able to easily engage ships smaller than them, but they should NOT be able to field battleship damage to ships larger than them. To counter this loss though, I would propse that the prophecy and myrmidon respectively get their drone mbit and m3 increased by 25 and 50 respectively, making them specifically usable with heavies and sentries. This gives a clear role for heavy damage without being broken all to hell like the ishtar is with having excellent mobility to top it off. I would be fine with having the ishtar and ishkur respectively get a repair bonus; i think an armor rep bonus would be a nice offset to losing all that dps on the ishtar. Rolling the ishkur's drone bay bonus into the hull would be effortless. i think the prophecy should return too being the bigger brother of the maller ... develop the harbinger into a faster attack bc, push ABC's to being T2 bc's too make way for using 4 of the combat bc's as attack bc's Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 326	Posted - 2014.11.29 04:53:12 - [79] - Quote esteemed video game publication Kotaku's front-page headline 2 weeks from now: rhea: biggest disappointment of 21st century?? watch me be a scurb and get owned
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 946	Posted - 2014.11.29 11:43:47 - [80] - Quote please respond https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE

elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 492	Posted - 2014.11.29 11:54:25 - [81] - Quote afkalt wrote: How is that going to help when the HML max theoretical paper dps is STILL less than APPLIED rail damage to a moving target. I apply more damage with 200mm rails to a moving cruiser target with 2km/s transversal than a HML applies to a stationary, shield tanked battleship. You can't break 300 DPS with a caracal and 2 damage mods. I'm APPLYING 360 with 200mm rails in a thorax with 2 damage mods. Faction ammo in all cases. You're not even being truthful. Your claims are demonstrably false. God forbid you shoot an armor tanked ship. Don't forget dear, long range missiles are (let's call them) beta-guns, delayed alpha guns like artillery. DPS is of secondary nature. Gutta cavat lapidem said the romans, maybe if I repeat it often enough it sticks. signature
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 328	Posted - 2014.11.29 12:23:22 - [82] - Quote Zavand Crendraven wrote: i dunno cruise missiles seems quite ok and sansha ship seems to kinda work but yea else cant say i disagree. though i think raven and phoon might be tied to torps being quite literal **** well they suck for kiting in comparison to every turret, since they pretty much cannot apply dps to cruisers or frigates. Even a typhoon (with its explosion velocity bonus) can't even get 300 dps applied to a painted MWDing shield thorax. Cue morons saying "just bring a huginn with webs and paints!!!" Why would I do that when I can just bring another dps ship, one that doesn't require a recon to babysit them? and they suck for fleets because of missile travel time, which both effectively reduces the damage output of your fleet whenever a target dies with missiles in the air and telegraphs to enemy logi what the next primary is, and because, again, they absolutely require webs and paints to have a hope of doing any damage, pretty much limiting them to 75km (the range of a linked huginn's webs), completely wasting their range "advantage" over turrets they just suck in fact I'd say that torps and cruises are probably the two worst things in the entire game, worse even than heavy missiles, worse than small beams, worse than medium autocannons it's just they've been terrible for so long that people simply forgot they existed, and they exist only within the realm of EFT, never once appearing on any player's radar so they'll never get buffed watch me be a scurb and get owned
Red Teufel Mafia Redux 402	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:06:30 - [83] - Quote fleet of interceptors, t3s, or micro jump driving BCs will smoke ishtar fleets. the only reason you see so many ishtar fleets today is because coalitions using the assist exploit and forced their members into them. Also a good counter to ishtars are carriers.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 948	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:14:06 - [84] - Quote Red Teufel wrote: fleet of interceptors, t3s, or micro jump driving BCs will smoke ishtar fleets. the only reason you see so many ishtar fleets today is because coalitions using the assist exploit and forced their members into them. Also a good counter to ishtars are carriers. are you serious what https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 688	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:21:07 - [85] - Quote Red Teufel wrote: fleet of interceptors, t3s, or micro jump driving BCs will smoke ishtar fleets. the only reason you see so many ishtar fleets today is because coalitions using the assist exploit and forced their members into them. Also a good counter to ishtars are carriers. Exploit.... I don't think that word means what you think it does.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 544	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:34:32 - [86] - Quote BRB. Defending pos with inty fleet from ishtar blob. .... back. in station. podded.
El Space Mariachi Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 186	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:38:52 - [87] - Quote afkalt wrote: BRB. Defending pos with inty fleet from ishtar blob. .... back. in station. podded. should've brought your MJDing drake fleet so you can do a sick nasty 450 raw DPS to something with resists against your best damage type and a 50% MWD sig bloom reduction, or your MJDing AC canes that need 2 fitting mods to get a full rack of 720s and die to a stiff breeze that'll show those ishtars gay gamers for jesus
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 651	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:44:04 - [88] - Quote I think he meant the always popular Ferox fleet? This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
El Space Mariachi Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 186	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:48:49 - [89] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: I think he meant the always popular Ferox fleet? Feroxes actually aren't too bad in general, they tank like a drake but actually do damage (thanks 250mm railguns), but they are after all battlecruisers so they're slower than molasses and only really useful for close range, and watch if ishtars let you stay close to them for long. gay gamers for jesus
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 544	Posted - 2014.11.29 17:51:20 - [90] - Quote In fairness, 20 intys to 1 ishtar ratio will likely work. But then I'd just do 20 ishtars to 1 and....go home faster.

FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 651	Posted - 2014.11.29 18:28:20 - [91] - Quote El Space Mariachi wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: I think he meant the always popular Ferox fleet? Feroxes actually aren't too bad in general, they tank like a drake but actually do damage (thanks 250mm railguns), but they are after all battlecruisers so they're slower than molasses and only really useful for close range, and watch if ishtars let you stay close to them for long. I know they are not that bad. I remember you all used them against us in Delve. Still wouldn't be my first choice against Ishtars. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Mario Putzo Welping and Dunking. 960	Posted - 2014.11.29 18:39:11 - [92] - Quote Rails. Fine. Missiles. Need Help. (only nerfed to speed up drake shaming.) Ishtars. Not really an Ishtar issue...its deeper. 1) Missiles counter drone ships. Without like sized missiles being worth a ** drone ships are free to play. Period. 2) No threat from above. Except more drone ships. No BCs means Cruisers only threat are from drones. I think #2 is the much more serious issue, and not just because of Ishtars, but basically every fleet is comprised of cruisers. Get BC's back in the game and you invite Battleship fleets again. No reason to use BS other than Domi against cruisers cause you will never hit **. It should be a triangle. BC > AHAC > BS > BC. But without BC you get Tengus online, or Ishtars online, or LegionsOnline, or whatever flavor of the week cruiser gang is out the most. FIX BCs CCP!
Bullet Therapist Caldari Provisions Caldari State 199	Posted - 2014.11.29 20:36:33 - [93] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: El Space Mariachi wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: I think he meant the always popular Ferox fleet? Feroxes actually aren't too bad in general, they tank like a drake but actually do damage (thanks 250mm railguns), but they are after all battlecruisers so they're slower than molasses and only really useful for close range, and watch if ishtars let you stay close to them for long. I know they are not that bad. I remember you all used them against us in Delve. Still wouldn't be my first choice against Ishtars. They're OK, I think its worth pointing out that they also take a lot of rep power to keep up, and don't have all that much more buffer than a moa, particularly after you consider sig rad. At least they do plenty of damage to a good range, and have a good alpha strike for a medium gun platform.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 949	Posted - 2014.11.30 14:14:45 - [94] - Quote Honestly they should just remove 25MB. Would anyone stop flying Ishtars if they were 80% as powerful as they are now? Probably not, but at least it would bring them more in line numbers wise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Khan Wrenth Hedion University Amarr Empire 83	Posted - 2014.11.30 17:13:24 - [95] - Quote Capqu wrote: Honestly they should just remove 25MB. Would anyone stop flying Ishtars if they were 80% as powerful as they are now? Probably not, but at least it would bring them more in line numbers wise. I see this suggested often, and I agree with it, but I think it's a band-aid solution that doesn't solve a deeper problem. The problem isn't so much the Ishtar, but in sentry drones themselves. Fix sentry drones and people will still use and adore the Ishtar, and it won't need any sort of nerf. HTFU.-á Adapt or die.-á Beware the falcon punch.
Feffri Death By Design Did he say Jump 52	Posted - 2014.11.30 17:27:34 - [96] - Quote Rails need slight damage nerf but not much. Ishtar IMO is an easy balance. The problem is not the drones or the ship but the difficulty in counter with e war. What they should do for drone ships like ishtar is if you sensor damp the ship it effects the drone control range if you jam the ship(basically impossible with ecm nerf and hac sensor strength gain) then ships LOSE their ability to control drones not just oh i'll reassign them. I also think that drone assist should just be done away with. Make pilots pilot their freaking ships! I even think (gasp) tds should effect drones if you hit the ship itself i say make ewar able to counter and not nerf or power creep. let pilots pilot and see who is better. If you did that ishtars would be counterable and drones would get a nerf that they need. so in most ishtar scenario they drop sentries kite around with drones assigned to one person and your whole fleet sits there and dies and some warp off.. or in low sec you just don't engage and there is no bubble to hold you so boof. With changes i suggest bring your mobile depot and some damps you run into said ishtar gang refit damps and spread them now most the kity ishtars arn't in control range of their sentries and will have to come into your fleet to engage and can't just sit at 100km going 3km's so now ishtars would have to engage or warp off. and you can welp the majority of their damage with put a damp on and ishtar pilot thats name starts with yours. with ecm disconnecting drone control it gives ecm a slight buff in that you lose drone dmg now and have to reconnect probably not counter to ishtar because ecm sucks now and sensor strength buff but in small gang ishtars 10 or so one or two falcons/blackbirds could be useful. td's pretty self explanatory if td passes through to drones a fleet spreading tds takes out the majority of the ishtar fleets damage by being able to keep range or close and out track them. no drone asssist means nerf to ishtar gangs alpha if they don't have coordinated and skilled pilots just like with any other weapon system no just one guy hitting f1. thx for reading and any tweaks to my suggestions.
Feffri Death By Design Did he say Jump 52	Posted - 2014.11.30 17:32:52 - [97] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Rails. Fine. Missiles. Need Help. (only nerfed to speed up drake shaming.) Ishtars. Not really an Ishtar issue...its deeper. 1) Missiles counter drone ships. Without like sized missiles being worth a ** drone ships are free to play. Period. 2) No threat from above. Except more drone ships. No BCs means Cruisers only threat are from drones. I think #2 is the much more serious issue, and not just because of Ishtars, but basically every fleet is comprised of cruisers. Get BC's back in the game and you invite Battleship fleets again. No reason to use BS other than Domi against cruisers cause you will never hit **. It should be a triangle. BC > AHAC > BS > BC. But without BC you get Tengus online, or Ishtars online, or LegionsOnline, or whatever flavor of the week cruiser gang is out the most. FIX BCs CCP! i agree with this the pathetic state of bc's is also the problem why the hell would you nerf bc's before your cruiser buff.. they could easily return the bc's to previous form and with the way cruisers are now they would just be in balance.. now there is just no advantage to flying tech 1 bc's over a cruiser or battleship. if you could make nano arty canes like they were before or drakes you would have something to go at ishtars with. but i like my ewar suggestion as well... so allow ewar on ishtars and return bc's boof fixed. :)
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 334	Posted - 2014.12.01 12:52:24 - [98] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Capqu wrote: Honestly they should just remove 25MB. Would anyone stop flying Ishtars if they were 80% as powerful as they are now? Probably not, but at least it would bring them more in line numbers wise. I see this suggested often, and I agree with it, but I think it's a band-aid solution that doesn't solve a deeper problem. The problem isn't so much the Ishtar, but in sentry drones themselves. Fix sentry drones and people will still use and adore the Ishtar, and it won't need any sort of nerf. I dunno, sentries are fine on, say, Dominixes, where they have the damage and range that's appropriate for a battleship, and all the drawbacks that come along with it. The fact that a HAC can fit the same damage and range of a battleship without sacrificing any tank or mobility is just insane watch me be a scurb and get owned
Quesa D00M. Northern Coalition. 44	Posted - 2014.12.01 13:14:47 - [99] - Quote Sorry if this was already suggested: I think one way you can fix drone boats like Ishtars is to make Sentries a capital drone weapon system, increase their volume and then give heavy drones a boost in mobility. You might be able to come up with a medium sized sentry but their damage would need to be around that of a medium drone. HMLs do, indeed, suck. Their projection vs other long range weapon system seems bad and their ability to 'track' is completely dependent upon webs and paints. HAMs kind of lack in these ways too. I'm not really sure what to do about these. I think that for 250mm Rails it might be more about the hulls that use them than the gun itself.
Faltzs Thundercats The Initiative. 18	Posted - 2014.12.01 13:37:44 - [100] - Quote Personally I think the ishtar bonus to both heavy and sentry drone is the issue, I would rather see it focus on heavy drones (see below). Which is a class of drones that at current seeing alot less use. Ishtar bonuses: 100% to heavy drone max range per lvl 10% drone HP and Damage per lvl +5km drone control range per lvl -10% reduction to drone signature while mwding Also buff heavy missiles pls.

FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 660	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:34:13 - [101] - Quote Capqu wrote: Honestly they should just remove 25MB. Would anyone stop flying Ishtars if they were 80% as powerful as they are now? Probably not, but at least it would bring them more in line numbers wise. This seems to me to be the best and easiest solution. To me, what makes the Ishtar so powerful is that it combines great damage with mobility. With a standard shield Ishtar fit, all level V character, you can push out 751 DPS with Garde II's at 41.25 + 12 optimal. Other useful numbers: ~53k EHP and 1819 m/s. Dropping one drone from that takes it down to 601 DPS, which seems much more in line with other HACs. With Bouncer II's, you are looking at 657 DPS at 82.5 + 42 optimal, which goes down to 526 DPS with only four drones. Contrast this with a Zealot at 456 DPS with HPL II and Scorch at 44 + 8.2 range. ~46k EHP, 588 m/s (AB) Contrast this with a Carberus at 593 DPS with HAM II and CN Scourge at 45.6km range. ~56k EHP, 1730 m/s Contrast this with a Muninn at 532 DPS with 720s and RF Phased Plasma at 27 + 31 range (but a significant alpha). ~36k EHP, 1732 m/s The lesson I draw from this EFT experimenting is that even with a significant nerf, an Ishtar with only four drones is still very competitive against the other ships in its class. I don't want to see the Ishtar nerfed into the ground. I think removing one drone is a significant nerf that brings the ship more into line with other HACs. That would be a positive change. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 660	Posted - 2014.12.01 14:35:36 - [102] - Quote Faltzs wrote: Personally I think the ishtar bonus to both heavy and sentry drone is the issue, I would rather see it focus on heavy drones (see below). Which is a class of drones that at current seeing alot less use. Ishtar bonuses: 100% to heavy drone max range per lvl 10% drone HP and Damage per lvl +5km drone control range per lvl -10% reduction to drone signature while mwding Also buff heavy missiles pls. We don't really need to see the Afktar get any better. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1383	Posted - 2014.12.01 15:03:51 - [103] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Faltzs wrote: Personally I think the ishtar bonus to both heavy and sentry drone is the issue, I would rather see it focus on heavy drones (see below). Which is a class of drones that at current seeing alot less use. Ishtar bonuses: 100% to heavy drone max range per lvl 10% drone HP and Damage per lvl +5km drone control range per lvl -10% reduction to drone signature while mwding Also buff heavy missiles pls. We don't really need to see the Afktar get any better. You could always remove the aggressive setting from drones. Just that would already help with the drone ships current apparent strength.
Ceawlin Cobon-Han Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:05:58 - [104] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: You could always remove the aggressive setting from drones. Just that would already help with the drone ships current apparent strength. Bad idea. Unless you're using missile launchers for FoFs, aggressive drones are the only DPS to guard against jamming. Bear in mind some missions have obscene levels of jamming. -1 The idea of limiting the Ishtar to 4 sentries is a very good one, for the reasons stated. +1
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 697	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:11:36 - [105] - Quote Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor? Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd. Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 954	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:15:31 - [106] - Quote the problem is you actually believe what you are saying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE
Wolf Incaelum Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 58	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:22:47 - [107] - Quote I know the perfect way to achieve perfect balance for ALL weapon/ammo types. Give all of them infinite range, infinite tracking speed, infinite optimal, infinite falloff, and make them all do zero damage. Overheat them to make them do negative damage, i.e. repair any damage that has been done by all of the weapons/ammo that deal no damage. There you have it, folks. Balance problem solved. ANARCHYFOREVAAARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
scorchlikeshiswhiskey Cirrius Technologies O X I D E 342	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:31:29 - [108] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor? Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd. Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread. 1. Drones would only be protected by armor if gasp they were inside the armor. 2. No one has said anything, to my knowledge, about lowering the HP of Ishtars or their drones so you seem to be a bit confused. If you meant same HP, lower DPS, and still having killable weapon systems... Well, that's called balancing when a cruiser can use Battleship sized weapons (sentries) at long range and while jammed (drone assist) and scooting around at high speed. If you see nothing wrong with that, I am sure you would have no problem with me fitting cruise missiles onto my Cerb. 3. You can already toss your sentries into racks, it's called your drone bay. If you meant mounting them as effective weapons though, well I suppose the equivalent would be fitting artillery but that would be less effective since you would have to worry about fitting costs, ammo, tracking, jamming, or even controlling your own weapons instead of letting 1 ship have the massed alpha of a gangs worth of deployed artillery platforms. If you think " just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship" is an "acceptable compromise", can we revisit me fitting cruise missiles to my Cerb? Seems like an acceptable compromise to the drivel that was your attempt at input. Allow me to demonstrate how it should be done. Hello all, I do not have a lot of experience with Ishtars, I am not highly spec'd in the Gallente line, but I have encountered them in PvP. My impression was that a gang of Ishtars, flown as they typically are, is the next best thing to ISBoxing a gang of Ishtars. They, seemingly, get a warp in, drop drones, establish orbits and then assist their drones. It seems that the only thing they have to do is watch for significant range changes, watch for someone taking too much damage, and occasionally shift the drone assistance if someone is jammed. Sounds mildly harder than running incursions. In my opinion, it seems like there are counters to such a doctrine, however that is like saying that enough cruisers can counter a cap fleet. It seems like it might be reasonable to limit Ishtars to 4 sentries, this would bring their DPS back into line with their hull size without over-gimping them. Now, Anhenka, if you would care to take off the stupid cap and put on your thinking one, maybe you can try again. Wolf Incaelum wrote: buzz buzz mosquito-like buzz buzz buzz
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 697	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:48:51 - [109] - Quote scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote: Anhenka wrote: Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor? Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd. Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread. Now, Anhenka, if you would care to take off the stupid cap and put on your thinking one, maybe you can try again. Christ on a crutch you are cranky. Go eat something or do something you enjoy you miserable bastard. First of all, I was referring to the proposal to remove 25MB of drone bandwith, in order to place it in the same dps/range bracket as the other HAC's. At which point you have an Ishtar that deals about the same amount of damage, at around the same ranges, but with the additional penalties of having your weapon systems be deployed at a static location and be able to be killed. It was only a half serious proposal anyway, poking fun at the part where 80% of this thread seems to be insisting Ishtars be nerfed to equal or lower DPS while retaining all of the downsides of having your primary weapon systems be a deployed system. After all, if I only do the same damage as the other HAC's, with the same tank, at the same ranges, at the same speeds, but I'm highly vulnerable to having my DPS destroyed, why wold I ever want to fly an Ishtar? Might as well homogenize them completely, and let me strap drones on my hull so everything can be turrets, yeah?
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1383	Posted - 2014.12.01 19:54:22 - [110] - Quote Anhenka wrote: scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote: Anhenka wrote: Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor? Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd. Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread. Now, Anhenka, if you would care to take off the stupid cap and put on your thinking one, maybe you can try again. Christ on a crutch you are cranky. Go eat something or do something you enjoy you miserable bastard. First of all, I was referring to the proposal to remove 25MB of drone bandwith, in order to place it in the same dps/range bracket as the other HAC's. At which point you have an Ishtar that deals about the same amount of damage, at around the same ranges, but with the additional penalties of having your weapon systems be deployed at a static location and be able to be killed. It was only a half serious proposal anyway, poking fun at the part where 80% of this thread seems to be insisting Ishtars be nerfed to equal or lower DPS while retaining all of the downsides of having your primary weapon systems be a deployed system. After all, if I only do the same damage as the other HAC's, with the same tank, at the same ranges, at the same speeds, but I'm highly vulnerable to having my DPS destroyed, why wold I ever want to fly an Ishtar? Might as well homogenize them completely, and let me strap drones on my hull so everything can be turrets, yeah? You could always use that rack of empty high slots to fit utility which most non drone ships can't as they have guns/launcher there. It's not like you don't have at least some free fittings on the ship with an empty rack of highs.

Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 697	Posted - 2014.12.01 20:08:31 - [111] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: You could always use that rack of empty high slots to fit utility which most non drone ships can't as they have guns/launcher there. It's not like you don't have at least some free fittings on the ship with an empty rack of highs. Of the many bonuses Ishtar's have, excessive amounts of spare CPU fitting is not among them. I may have a full rack of 4 empty high slots, sure. I also only have 50 CPU to play around with on a fairly standard Ishtar fit, a bit more with engineering implants or genos. That will get me a fairly limited range of fittings. A single drone link augmenter with nothing to spare, or one medium smartbomb in the unlikely event someone is using light drones on an ishtar + a civvy gun to get on side KM's, a pair of medium energy neuts (on a ship that wants to stay as far as possible from the enemy).... Really only every use at most 2 of those slots, there's just not enough CPU left over to fit them all with anything all that useful. Most all utility slots an Ishtar would want are those that go in the mids.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 660	Posted - 2014.12.01 21:42:05 - [112] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor? Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd. Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread. The Ishtar will still do and apply more DPS than the other HACs after the loss of one drone. Not to mention that I left the drone bay unchanged- so still plenty of spare drones available. The DPS is destructible- but that's damage not being applied to the Ishtar. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 335	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:45:35 - [113] - Quote Anhenka wrote: It was only a half serious proposal anyway, poking fun at the part where 80% of this thread seems to be insisting Ishtars be nerfed to equal or lower DPS while retaining all of the downsides of having your primary weapon systems be a deployed system. maybe people are short with you because you're so dense that even after 5 pages you still don't realize there are huge advantages to using drones that outweigh their destructibility, namely: damage output is unaffected by EWar no cap usage no ammo usage totally selectable damagetypes, and by far the biggest one: you can fit for high dps and range without sacrificing tank or mobility. 1600 plate + dualprop? 100mn AB with a shield tank? No fitting mods, no problem! You'll still do more damage than a heavy pulse zealot that can't even fit an AB without using an ancillary current router but oh sentries are soo vulnerable! you only have to do 70k damage to get rid of an ishtars dps (until he warps off to a mobile depot) god ishtar apologists are just the worst watch me be a scurb and get owned
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 544	Posted - 2014.12.01 22:48:38 - [114] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: You could always use that rack of empty high slots to fit utility which most non drone ships can't as they have guns/launcher there. It's not like you don't have at least some free fittings on the ship with an empty rack of highs. Of the many bonuses Ishtar's have, excessive amounts of spare CPU fitting is not among them. I may have a full rack of 4 empty high slots, sure. I also only have 50 CPU to play around with on a fairly standard Ishtar fit, a bit more with engineering implants or genos. That will get me a fairly limited range of fittings. A single drone link augmenter with nothing to spare, or one medium smartbomb in the unlikely event someone is using light drones on an ishtar + a civvy gun to get on side KM's, a pair of medium energy neuts (on a ship that wants to stay as far as possible from the enemy).... Really only every use at most 2 of those slots, there's just not enough CPU left over to fit them all with anything all that useful. Most all utility slots an Ishtar would want are those that go in the mids. Your posts seem mainly sensible so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, I hope I'm right. Here is a sample ishtar I've fought in the field [Ishtar - Ishtar] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Internal Force Field Array I Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Large Shield Extender II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Drone Link Augmentor II Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Now I'm sure people will point out the lack of tackle to which I retort - naturally, but the ishtars don't present problems until they enter fleet territory where tackle is either provided, or not required. Fast. Neuts. Ewar immune. Can control the field of movement independent of weapon tracking. Tanky. Affordable. DPS in low battleship league. MWD sig bonus. 100+km no fly zone. Show me another ship that can do that in one fit.... Again, small gang they're less of an issue, brawling is fine and balanced too - hence the direction of the changes I've suggested previously. I don't want that area to change - I want to hurt the fleet ishtar and get some fitting compromises on it. This can be done with seriously hurting small gang/brawling ishtars without much grief.
Soldarius Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent 897	Posted - 2014.12.02 21:47:27 - [115] - Quote I agree with the Pizza guys on all but one point; the poor performance of cruise missiles. They have superior range and apply plenty of dps to frigates even without painters or webs. Train them support skills. I've personally fought off multiple AFs in a PvE active tanked cruise raven with no tackle. I don't deny the vulnerability of missiles to smartbombs or the delayed damage. Absolutely true. On the topic of Ishtars, reducing their available drone bandwidth would solve the problem. I can't understand why they're allotted 125mb. That's ridiculous for a cruiser of any kind. Or increasing the bandwidth requirements for Sentries would make them all but unfieldable on subcaps without effecting an Ishtar's ability to field a flight of heavies. Might want to readjust those drone-size-specific bonuses then. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Soldarius Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent 897	Posted - 2014.12.02 21:51:41 - [116] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Faltzs wrote: Personally I think the ishtar bonus to both heavy and sentry drone is the issue, I would rather see it focus on heavy drones (see below). Which is a class of drones that at current seeing alot less use. Ishtar bonuses: 100% to heavy drone max range per lvl 10% drone HP and Damage per lvl +5km drone control range per lvl -10% reduction to drone signature while mwding Also buff heavy missiles pls. We don't really need to see the Afktar get any better. So... +500% heavy drone range at level 5, + another 25km to drone control.... whut? Maybe you meant heavy drone velocity? I'd be ok with that, if it got its bandwidth reduced to 100mb. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 711	Posted - 2014.12.02 22:03:55 - [117] - Quote Soldarius wrote: So... +500% heavy drone range at level 5, + another 25km to drone control.... whut? Maybe you meant heavy drone velocity? I'd be ok with that, if it got its bandwidth reduced to 100mb. I too would be ok with this. I mean just think.... 6km/sec base * 1.25 for skills * 1.3 for a single Drone Navigation Computer II = 9.75km/sec. FLY MY PRETTIES! CHASE DOWN DEADSPACE FIT DRAMIELS! LET NONE ESCAPE!
J A Aloysiusz Precision Strike Brigade Easily Excited 92	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:37:22 - [118] - Quote Ishtars! Firstly, I think one of the issues that is being overlooked here is that there's simply no way for any armor fleet to hold down ishtars, especially in low sec. Only max-linked, faction-fit recons can tackle out to the ishtar's general range of 70-100km. But at 70km, bouncers tear the arazu and rapier apart, since they have crap for explosive resistance. I think a slight buff to the tank of armor-fit recons (IE, 1 extra low slot each, at the expense of 1 high slot), or even a balancing of their resistance profiles, would help. That being said, I think the MOST reasonable, pinpointed solution is a sizeable nerf to sentry tracking. With the 25% bonus from the ship hull, Gardes track at .045. That's almost as high as Void and Null in unbonused large neutron IIs (.048). Let's compare some stats (Max skills, unbonused hulls): 1x 425mm rail II w/ CN antimatter: .0126 tracking, 36km+30km opt+falloff, 316 damage, 46 dps. 1x tachyon beam II w/ IN multi: .0174 tracking @ 33+25, 472 damage, 52 dps. 1x 1400 II w/ RF EMP: .01125 tracking @ 30+43, 1117 damage, 39 dps. 1x Garde II: .036 @ 30+18, 244 damage, 56 dps 1x Curator II: .0276 @ 52+12, 211 damage, 52.8 dps 1x Bouncer II: .0192 tracking @ 52+48, 198 damage, 49.5 dps So the bouncer has better tracking, optimal, and falloff than all 3 of the largest racial guns, with a higher dps than 2 of 3. Due to the strong DPS alone, only a large-weapon ship with more than 5 large turrets stands a chance in projection, and other large-weapon ships have far weaker tracking. I don't like the idea of a straight-up nerf to the ishtar. It's a fun boat to fly, and I like its potential niche as the only large-weapon HAC. I think the issue is that it applies damage too well at too broad a range, simply making it the best choice (only choice) in far too many situations. Its raw DPS is not overwhelming; it is on par with other HACs, and can easily be outgunned by ABCs. Its projection, however, is absurd compared to the other HACs. Thus I think the real issue is sentry tracking. I think that (like ABCs, which I think are currently well-balanced), large weapon systems should be VERY RELIANT on tracking modules in order to apply their raw damage to Battlecruisers and smaller. Think of it this way: Ishtar is the only HAC that can use a large weapon system (within reason!). Shouldn't it, therefore, be nearly incapable of applying damage to other HACs? HACs are "supposed" to be a counter to large weapon systems, aren't they? So my ultimate recommendation is this: Leave sentry range as is, leave the ishtar as is, nerf sentry tracking to hell such that the ishtar is reliant on using multiple tracking modules to apply damage to anything smaller than a BS. I don't think anyone complains about the dominix outside of the AT, so perhaps raise its tracking bonus accordingly.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey Cirrius Technologies O X I D E 345	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:48:36 - [119] - Quote Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part...
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1015	Posted - 2014.12.02 23:54:39 - [120] - Quote scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote: Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part... drakes power has always been in its tank , which barely got touched, HML's only needed a slight nerf too its tracking of small ships really and maybe a little range. it still outperforms the ferox bar, the rail ferox setup, which is a shame .. making the drake more caracal like would have made more sense, less tank, remove the resist bonus, for more mobility and better projection.. changing the ABC's into T2 would allow for the brutix, drake, harbinger and hurricane too become proper ABC's Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please

J A Aloysiusz Precision Strike Brigade Easily Excited 92	Posted - 2014.12.03 00:13:15 - [121] - Quote Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class. Instead of a heavy 250 nerf, I would greatly prefer the zealot and muninn get buffs, and/or 720s and heavy beams be made to fit more easily on the hulls that they are designed for. IE, Muninn does less DPS with 425's w/ hail (let alone 720s) than a 250 deimos, not to mention the deimos gets twice the drone bandwidth, so obviously something is wrong. But a heavy nerf to 250s would destroy the poor little Eagle and vulture, who finally have sort of found a niche! AHAC 720 muninns would be fun as [censored] if they didn't suck so terribly! And of course, HMLs are currently garbage and need a buff. Even the drakenstein monster of '12 would be balanced in today's environment. P.S. Battlecruisers+CSs are bigger than cruisers and HACs and should be able to fit the largest medium weapons with ease. Is that not a no-brainer?
J A Aloysiusz Precision Strike Brigade Easily Excited 92	Posted - 2014.12.03 00:25:02 - [122] - Quote scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote: Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part... I thought of that as well, and I'm not entirely sure whether or not I agree with you. But I think the comparison of projection is evidence enough that a tracking nerf is needed. Perhaps a combined slight nerf to sentry tracking, outright removal of the ishtar's sentry tracking bonus, and a decrease in drone bay to 250m3 (giving it less ability to field variety, and less resistance to drone smartbombing) would work well in conjunction for a more balanced ship?
J A Aloysiusz Precision Strike Brigade Easily Excited 92	Posted - 2014.12.03 00:40:43 - [123] - Quote Lastly, before I walk away from the computer (I swear, I'll do it!), I'll mention that I don't see much complaining about the heavy drone ishtar, despite its epic raw DPS. If ishtar loses a sentry, should it lose a heavy drone as well?
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 499	Posted - 2014.12.03 00:51:00 - [124] - Quote J A Aloysiusz wrote: Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class. No signature
Zavand Crendraven Rolling Static Gone Critical 3	Posted - 2014.12.03 02:27:38 - [125] - Quote J A Aloysiusz wrote: Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class. they do blaster dps basically but way better range
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1017	Posted - 2014.12.03 10:44:55 - [126] - Quote J A Aloysiusz wrote: Lastly, before I walk away from the computer (I swear, I'll do it!), I'll mention that I don't see much complaining about the heavy drone ishtar, despite its epic raw DPS. If ishtar loses a sentry, should it lose a heavy drone as well? i think the better ooption is just to reduce the damage bonuses for heavies/sentries to 7.5% removing a drone enitrely might be too heavy a nerf. reducing dronebay to 250 would force more sacrificies and stop the easy use of replacing sentry drones that die. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 500	Posted - 2014.12.03 11:44:19 - [127] - Quote Zavand Crendraven wrote: J A Aloysiusz wrote: Oh and I think 250 rails are fairly reasonable in the context of all weapon systems (maybe lose ~5% damage and tracking), but they are imbalanced within their own weapon class. they do blaster dps basically but way better range And tracking has nothing to do with it. The only boat in EVE that can hit something at close(r) range(s) is the vigilant. Everything has to be really fast to stay at range or be an abomination. signature
hungrymanbreakfast Repercussus Goonswarm Federation 35	Posted - 2014.12.06 00:07:49 - [128] - Quote J A Aloysiusz wrote: scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote: Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part... I thought of that as well, and I'm not entirely sure whether or not I agree with you. But I think the comparison of projection is evidence enough that a tracking nerf is needed. Perhaps a combined slight nerf to sentry tracking, outright removal of the ishtar's sentry tracking bonus, and a decrease in drone bay to 250m3 (giving it less ability to field variety, and less resistance to drone smartbombing) would work well in conjunction for a more balanced ship? Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 731	Posted - 2014.12.06 00:27:53 - [129] - Quote hungrymanbreakfast wrote: J A Aloysiusz wrote: scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote: Nerfing sentries to fix one ship makes about as much sense as nerfing HML's to fix Drakes. Just my thought on that last part... I thought of that as well, and I'm not entirely sure whether or not I agree with you. But I think the comparison of projection is evidence enough that a tracking nerf is needed. Perhaps a combined slight nerf to sentry tracking, outright removal of the ishtar's sentry tracking bonus, and a decrease in drone bay to 250m3 (giving it less ability to field variety, and less resistance to drone smartbombing) would work well in conjunction for a more balanced ship? Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars. That's because we wouldn't be discussing them the same way we don't discuss Hurricanes. Anyone seen a Hurricane lately in nullsec? How about a Brutix, or Ferox, or Harbinger. Or Nidhoggur, Hypherion, Abbadon, Typhoon? The solution (If you think there needs to be one) to a ship being excessively versatile is not to take the only decent attributes about them and trash them completely, reducing them to full on garbage tier. Drones chasing targets are not viable for anything other than a relatively small gang, relatively short range engagement. In any other situation other than clearing small tackle with warriors or hitting non or barely mobile structures, actual flight time between targets and immense vulnerability to both smartbombs and conventional bombs means that non sentry drones are an unreliable, weak, useless primary weapon systems.
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 959	Posted - 2014.12.10 01:22:25 - [130] - Quote Honestly amazed that there were 0 changes to any of the above at all in rhea. Hopefully not a sign of (the lack) of things to come. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE

FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 680	Posted - 2014.12.10 03:20:26 - [131] - Quote Capqu wrote: Honestly amazed that there were 0 changes to any of the above at all in rhea. Hopefully not a sign of (the lack) of things to come. I've noticed that CCP seems to eventually get around to agreeing with you guys. I wouldn't be surprised to see changes in the next couple of patches. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Rino007 2	Posted - 2014.12.10 03:31:00 - [132] - Quote hungrymanbreakfast wrote: [quote=J A Aloysiusz][quote=scorchlikeshiswhiskey] Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars. The problem with sentris is specifically the Ishtar. It is capable of battleship level dps without the drawbacks of being a battleship. If it had the drawbacks of being a battleship, it wouldn't be as overpowering because it could be countered.
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 2729	Posted - 2014.12.10 05:53:43 - [133] - Quote Capqu wrote: These things need changes, and I think most of the community knows it. I'm tired of ** posting in all the meaningless "balance" threads with irrelevant changes and just want to see some actual meaningful changes for once in my goddamn life. The above sentiment (at least in my mind) also applies to adding content and paradigm shifts for: Incarna Capital Ships PI And yet we're still making rant topics about the same old ship / module balancing drama that has been happening for the last 11 years.... Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!**
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 347	Posted - 2014.12.10 08:15:51 - [134] - Quote Asuka Solo wrote: Capqu wrote: These things need changes, and I think most of the community knows it. I'm tired of **** posting in all the meaningless "balance" threads with irrelevant changes and just want to see some actual meaningful changes for once in my goddamn life. The above sentiment (at least in my mind) also applies to adding content and paradigm shifts for: Incarna Capital Ships PI And yet we're still making rant topics about the same old ship / module balancing drama that has been happening for the last 11 years.... Incarna was a failed attempt to make a spaceship game about walking your barbie around and 95% of players would rather just forget about it Did you miss the massive change to capital mechanics that happened all of 6 weeks ago? PI by all accounts seems to work fine did you just want an excuse to use the phrase "paradigm shift"? watch me be a scurb and get owned
Adrie Atticus Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion 663	Posted - 2014.12.10 08:41:02 - [135] - Quote Capqu wrote: [quote=Warde Guildencrantz] Rails on a Tengu comfortably hit to 130km, Heavy missiles on the same ship will only hit to 88km and do significantly less applied damage at that range than the rails. That is without tracking or range mods for the rails, which the Heavies cannot even have. Not to mention the inherent disadvantage of delayed and destroyable [smartbombing] damage. Actually, slippery petes are effective up to 190km...
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 347	Posted - 2014.12.11 11:10:46 - [136] - Quote i killed a hurricane a month or two ago. he was cyno bait but didn't bring enough ozone. that's all the hurricane is good for. watch me be a scurb and get owned
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER 3	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:24:21 - [137] - Quote If we want to fix the Ishtar in a fashionable manner I'd suggest reducing the bandwitch to 50mb and change it's boni to medium-drones and armor-tank. Remove one med and give it an additional low slot. Low slots: 6 Medium slots: 4 High slots: 4 Drone bay: 175m3 Drone bandwidth : 50mb Gallente Cruiser skill bonus per level: 7.5% Armor Repair amount 10% Drone hitpoints and damage Heavy Assault Cruisers skill bonus per level: 10% Medium Drone damage 30% Medium Drone hitpoints Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty --- This makes the Ishtar into a viable medium-sized drone boat with brawler-capabilities. With three DDA II fitted and five Hammerhead II we'd be looking at ~600 DPS, and the drones would gain some needed survivability. The reduced drone-bay would still be plenty enough for three sets of mediums and a set of smalls.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1762	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:28:54 - [138] - Quote Grytok wrote: If we want to fix the Ishtar in a fashionable manner I'd suggest reducing the bandwitch to 50mb and change it's boni to medium-drones and armor-tank. Remove one med and give it an additional low slot. Gila says Hi! If you do this to it either the Ishtar or the Gila become never used.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1048	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:44:11 - [139] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Grytok wrote: If we want to fix the Ishtar in a fashionable manner I'd suggest reducing the bandwitch to 50mb and change it's boni to medium-drones and armor-tank. Remove one med and give it an additional low slot. Gila says Hi! If you do this to it either the Ishtar or the Gila become never used. i'd bet on the ishtar, when you consider how OP the gila is right now. the nerf needs too be more reducing its effectiveness with sentries and to a lesser extent heavies. nerf its dronebay too 250, this limits options and replacement waves and makes sense on a cruiser hull too have less bay than a battleship. VNI for example. and reduce its drone damage bonuses to 7.5% too sentries and heavies. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Grytok KL0NKRIEGER 3	Posted - 2014.12.12 16:37:10 - [140] - Quote The main-reason I actually see, why the Ishtar is now so popular is the Drone Damage Amplifiers and . Before those mods, the DPS wasn't that impressive and the reason nobody used the Ishtar like they do these days. Without DDAs the 5 Garde II do 420 DPS with max skills. Now slap on three DDA IIs and you'll up the DPS to 700. The damage-boni on the Ishtar haven't changed, and the range and tracking for the sentries isn't that important imho. Let's look at Ishtar vs unbonused sentries without mods. Garde II = 37.5 km vs 30 km - 0.045 r/sec vs 0.036 r/sec - 84 DPS vs 56 DPS Curator II = 65.6 km vs 52.5 km - 0.034 r/sec vs 0.028 r/sec - 79 DPS vs 53 DPS Bouncer II = 65.6 km vs 52.5 km - 0.024 r/sec vs 0.019 r/sec - 74 DPS vs 50 DPS Warden II = 93.7 km vs 75 km - 0.015 r/sec vs 0.012 r/sec - 69 DPS vs 46 DPS No big deal there really, especially with the tracking, as every cruiser or frig with a little transversal won't get hit at all or just brushed occasionally. If you fly straight into the fire nothings changed either. So yeah, maybe the only problem that needs fixing is the Drone Damage Amplifiers and the assigining of drones to other players. Or maybe there isn't something to be fixed at all, and you just need to bring a couple bombers or smart-bomb-ships to kill off the drones. Even with the 50% bonus to hitpoints the T2-sentries of an Ishtar die horribly to a battleship fitted with three or four smarties. So get a CovOps to provide a warp-in for those smartie-battleships and pooof... there goes all the Ishtars DPS.

Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 297	Posted - 2014.12.12 17:19:11 - [141] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor? Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd. Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread. Because, you know, it's impossible to deploy another drone. That argument is tired. Drones have been killable forever, yet the Ishtar is far and away the best and most widely used HAC. CLEARLY your argument doesn't hold up to balance. I don't understand why this is difficult for you to see. Seriously. +1 to appropriate drone bonuses. Cruisers get medium, BS get large, Frigs get small. It's really not that hard.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 754	Posted - 2014.12.12 17:24:32 - [142] - Quote Phaade wrote: Anhenka wrote: Hey if we are scaling back Ishtar DPS to match the DPS of other HACs, I presume we also get the option to strap our drones to the sides of our ships so they are protected by our shields and armor? Cause same dps, lower HP, but still having killable weapon systems seems a bit odd. Why can't I just toss my sentries into racks on the side of my ship? Seems an acceptable compromise to all the "NERF DPS NOW!" going on in this thread. Because, you know, it's impossible to deploy another drone. That argument is tired. Drones have been killable forever, yet the Ishtar is far and away the best and most widely used HAC. CLEARLY your argument doesn't hold up to balance. I don't understand why this is difficult for you to see. Seriously. +1 to appropriate drone bonuses. Cruisers get medium, BS get large, Frigs get small. It's really not that hard. It was a largely joke post at the time, since the threads were filled with "gut the Ishtar and let irrelevance sort it out" suggestions like "only let Ishtars deploy medium drones" "remove the drone bonuses and give it an armor tank" "Remove enough of the drone bay that it can't deploy an additional wave of drones" I figured I may as well toss in my own silly, bullshit suggestion to what seemed to be an obvious contest for worst balancing ideas. Many people here seems to be trying to "Balance" the Ishtar by turning it into a ship that is so bad, so useless that it has no application anywhere.
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 347	Posted - 2014.12.16 03:17:38 - [143] - Quote Anhenka wrote: The ones that were not were choosing to compare it to gun ships and cut back all the stats until they matced the other gun HAC's, so I was poking fun at the observation that if you want to cut it back to exact gun HAC stats, then it should be able to mount its weapon systems in a non vulnerable state, like gun HAC's. and yet you consistently ignore that drones have actual advantages over guns as a weapon system, namely independence from fitting restrictions (which make things like the no-fitting-mods 700 dps 100mn ishtar possible) and invulnerability to EWAR Sort of like how the dominix does a fair bit less DPS than comparable battleships yet still remains popular. Gee what a mystery??? I almost cannot believe you're seriously still arguing that, because you can kill an ishtar's drones (with 70k of damage), it makes it perfectly acceptable for the ishtar to have like 50% more damage at 70km than other HACs watch me be a scurb and get owned
hungrymanbreakfast Repercussus Goonswarm Federation 35	Posted - 2014.12.19 20:04:56 - [144] - Quote Rino007 wrote: hungrymanbreakfast wrote: [quote=J A Aloysiusz][quote=scorchlikeshiswhiskey] Sentry drones need to be outright removed or redesigned. Every drone ship doctrine uses sentries over any other drone except fighter bombers. If drones had to chase targets we wouldn't even be discussing ishtars. The problem with sentris is specifically the Ishtar. It is capable of battleship level dps without the drawbacks of being a battleship. If it had the drawbacks of being a battleship, it wouldn't be as overpowering because it could be countered. Simply decrease the number of sentries it can use to 4 and it wouldn't be as overpowering. That would trim it's dps down by 20% Truth be told I was comparing a Dominix 3 slot armor tank vs an Ishtar with a 3 slot shield tank a few days ago. The Ishtar would get a stronger tank (less buffer) than the dominix, with the same dps with sentries, and more with heavy drones, the only thing that the Ishtar might not beat the Dominix with is the effective range of the drones. Something doesn't seem right there in my opinion. In almost forms of context the Ishtar is superior to the Dominix and that is a problem rooted in the fact it has battleship level dps due to that 5th sentry. The Dominix can microjump away and then make the Ishtar go boom with enough of a fit, but at close range hands down the Ishtar wins (doing more drone dps via heavy drones than the Dominix). With 4 Warden 2's in this fit it can have 493 Drone dps. Granted it has 0 gun dps, but truth be told it doesn't need gun dps because it's close range dps is 599. And remember that is with 4 sentry drones, not the 5 that it is capable now (748 close, 616 far range) Sounds way more desirable than a Dominix to me considering its signature. The tracking needs a nerf as frigates can be alpha'd when mwd'ing at full transversal under 30k. Not many things can hit those, but sentries can. The dps needs a nerf since it has the same issue the old HM missiles had. DPS is always applied, so the travel time of the higher damage alternative is beaten. And since the tracking and range is pretty good they work at all ranges. If you aren't tracking with the drones just fight them a little further away from the drones. Carriers aren't using fighters anymore since the sentries are cheaper and are always applying instant ~1000 dps. You only see fighters in small gang engagements or PVE. You never see heavy drones in PVP or PVE anymore, which is kinda bad since they are supposed to be the high damage drone. The fact that the ishtar gets buffs to the sentry drones is just adding insult to injury. It also needs a bit of a nerf, but I would start with sentry drones and then see how they fare.
Adrie Atticus Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion 713	Posted - 2014.12.19 22:06:16 - [145] - Quote Khan Wrenth wrote: Capqu wrote: Honestly they should just remove 25MB. Would anyone stop flying Ishtars if they were 80% as powerful as they are now? Probably not, but at least it would bring them more in line numbers wise. I see this suggested often, and I agree with it, but I think it's a band-aid solution that doesn't solve a deeper problem. The problem isn't so much the Ishtar, but in sentry drones themselves. Fix sentry drones and people will still use and adore the Ishtar, and it won't need any sort of nerf. It's a double-whammy because Ishtars are the only sentry platform which is 100% safe from bombing runs at all times of the day, unless the bombing fleet wants to sacrifice 1 tackle ship per Ishtar just to kill them.
Esmanpir Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 6	Posted - 2014.12.19 22:16:28 - [146] - Quote Viribus wrote: Harvey James wrote: corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get corax is an inferior talwar, there's really no reason for it to be in the game nighthawk has a bizzare slot layout, horrible fitting, and uses missiles without having a rapid light bonus dragoons are just terrible, literally nobody thinks they're good prophecy's a worse myrmidon, it's just a big slow garbageheap of a ship that does worse damage than most cruisers Isn't a Corax a little better against frigs though?
Capqu Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 972	Posted - 2014.12.20 10:13:27 - [147] - Quote Esmanpir wrote: Viribus wrote: Harvey James wrote: corax's, highthawks,dragoons and prophecies whats up with them? .. the rest i get corax is an inferior talwar, there's really no reason for it to be in the game nighthawk has a bizzare slot layout, horrible fitting, and uses missiles without having a rapid light bonus dragoons are just terrible, literally nobody thinks they're good prophecy's a worse myrmidon, it's just a big slow garbageheap of a ship that does worse damage than most cruisers Isn't a Corax a little better against frigs though? in practise no, because it has worse fitting and terrible speed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPntjTPWgKE


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