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time to "fix" the ishtar

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MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2023	Posted - 2014.11.28 00:30:06 - [1] - Quote So the Ishtar got a slight nerf early in the year but with the news that the ishtar is still doing 8% of all pvp damage it seems that the nerf was more of a tickle. my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets... this should be enough to still allow the ishtar to be a sentry ship if needed but it will truely shine as a close range blaster/heavy drone ship. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 683	Posted - 2014.11.28 04:53:48 - [2] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: So the Ishtar got a slight nerf early in the year but with the news that the ishtar is still doing 8% of all pvp damage it seems that the nerf was more of a tickle. my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets... this should be enough to still allow the ishtar to be a sentry ship if needed but it will truely shine as a close range blaster/heavy drone ship. Your tears are as always, delicious. -Someone who does not even own an Ishtar. Having absolutely never been in a position where the best choice of ship would be a flimsy yet short range ship with poor slot layouts for both armor and shield tanking, I'm going to have to disagree with your proposal. It would be like the pre-change diemost, but squared.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2023	Posted - 2014.11.28 05:22:22 - [3] - Quote Anhenka wrote: MeBiatch wrote: So the Ishtar got a slight nerf early in the year but with the news that the ishtar is still doing 8% of all pvp damage it seems that the nerf was more of a tickle. my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets... this should be enough to still allow the ishtar to be a sentry ship if needed but it will truely shine as a close range blaster/heavy drone ship. Your tears are as always, delicious. -Someone who does not even own an Ishtar. Having absolutely never been in a position where the best choice of ship would be a flimsy yet short range ship with poor slot layouts for both armor and shield tanking, I'm going to have to disagree with your proposal. It would be like the pre-change diemost, but squared. what makes you think i dont have an ishtar... i also think the tengu needs adjustment too. 5 low slots is more then enough for an armor tank or you can go with shields and go dps... if anything i would swap the tracking bonus from the eos and put it on the ishtar and put the sentry drone optimalrange/tracking bonus on the eos. personally i think the sentry bonus on a cruiser sized hull is a tad op. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Komi Toran Paragon Trust The Bastion 401	Posted - 2014.11.28 06:59:57 - [4] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets... Let's take a look: Cerberus: Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Muninn: Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Zealot: Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Proposed Ishtar: Heavy Drone Drone Drone Medium Hybrid Turret One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong.
Presidente Gallente Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes 135	Posted - 2014.11.28 07:19:36 - [5] - Quote Who in a Ishtar killed your main and what did you lose?
Abrazzar Vardaugas Family 5316	Posted - 2014.11.28 07:37:15 - [6] - Quote Maybe remove the sentry spec and make it a heavy spec. T1 bonuses remain the same. T2 bonuses could be +25m-¦ drone bay and +5% heavy drone velocity, agility and tracking. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics
Presidente Gallente Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes 135	Posted - 2014.11.28 07:53:46 - [7] - Quote I would recommend to boost people that they might fix their overview and try to kill the Ishtar's drones. FIXED.
Leonard Nimoy II Dark Force Protectorate Special Operators Federation Alliance 94	Posted - 2014.11.28 07:58:23 - [8] - Quote Presidente Gallente wrote: Who in an Ishtar killed your main and what did you lose? ^^ This. EDIT: Also - why would Ishtar get a gun bonus? It's a drone boat. Mine hardly even has guns on it.
elitatwo Eve Minions Poopstain Removal Team 487	Posted - 2014.11.28 08:29:11 - [9] - Quote Abrazzar wrote: Maybe remove the sentry spec and make it a heavy spec. T1 bonuses remain the same. T2 bonuses could be +25m-¦ drone bay and +5% heavy drone velocity, agility and tracking. But she would be a Navy Vexor then. signature
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 529	Posted - 2014.11.28 09:27:12 - [10] - Quote Presidente Gallente wrote: I would recommend to boost those lazy people without a proper overview and they should start to kill the Ishtar's drones. FIXED. Apparently you've not been in a fight with 50-75 ishtars if you think this wont result in a whelp of epic magnitude.
Presidente Gallente Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes 136	Posted - 2014.11.28 09:40:48 - [11] - Quote afkalt wrote: Presidente Gallente wrote: I would recommend to boost those lazy people without a proper overview and they should start to kill the Ishtar's drones. FIXED. Apparently you've not been in a fight with 50-75 ishtars if you think this wont result in a whelp of epic magnitude. I've been in fights like this and we killed them because we had Guardians. Any other wrong arguments? Btw: the alpha of 50-75 Oracles does hurt. Let's start a thread to nerf them. Numbers are bad anyway.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 529	Posted - 2014.11.28 09:49:21 - [12] - Quote So killing their drones had nothing to do with it. That many ishtars will start alphaing things. I doubt it was that many and I very much doubt you shot their drones or even had similar numbers. Point being killing the drones is pants on head dumb after about the 5th ishtar is on field.
Presidente Gallente Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes 136	Posted - 2014.11.28 09:54:18 - [13] - Quote afkalt wrote: So killing their drones had nothing to do with it. That many ishtars will start alphaing things. I doubt it was that many and I very much doubt you shot their drones or even had similar numbers. Point being killing the drones is pants on head dumb after about the 5th ishtar is on field. Do you really understand what EVE exactly is all about? When you jump into a 10 ship gatecamp you are usually dead. Everything gank fitted will alpha you at a special point. It's not just the Ishtar. RnK will own you with their pipe-bomb Rohk's. So what's the point here?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 529	Posted - 2014.11.28 09:55:24 - [14] - Quote You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 284	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:00:23 - [15] - Quote afkalt wrote: You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire. Which is exactly the same with any ship in game, except you can't even blow up their dps.
Presidente Gallente Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes 136	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:03:12 - [16] - Quote afkalt wrote: You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire. No it's essential if you fight a drone boat. Finally you can kill their drones if you have a counter setup with logistics. When I have a Proteus with two Guardians and I get attacked by 5 shield Ishtars using sentry drones and kiting me at warp disrupt range I would burn towards their drones and kill them while I get repped up. If they don't give up you fight them as long as they get out of drones and have to bail. EVE is special because there's no walkthrough or pattern you are dreaming about. You need a counter setup otherwise you have to live with what you fight. If you have 10 Ishtars or 10 Oracles. Where's the difference? Both fleets alpha you to hell of you are in the wrong setup. Or mor worst: if you are alone.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 529	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:06:25 - [17] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: afkalt wrote: You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire. Which is exactly the same with any ship in game, except you can't even blow up their dps. Rubbish. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about. As the number of ishtars rise, the number of drones rise x5. The ability to split fire/not waste volley fire on drones of the FC/fleet members becomes an impossible task. So a HUGE amount of your dps is wasted. In the interim, the ishtars are tearing into your fleet and god forbid they might need to drop a fresh set. To suggest killing drones is an effective ishtar fleet counter is an utter fabrication. It will work in the very small scale, but the not in the problem area which is bigger fleet combat.
Evora Pirkibo Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 41	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:06:26 - [18] - Quote Yes the ishtar needs work. The trouble is a combination of things, however what stands out is it's large fleet usage in combination with the assist mechanic of drones. With a field of sentries assisting the fc, they don't even have to call targets, there is no discrepancy in the timing of locks or shots. The host ships aren't even f1 grunts anymore, simply deploy and assist, then just worry about mitigating incomming damage and calling for reps. I believe this is no bueno, as it leads to much less active involvement from fleet members. However the assist and guard mechanics shouldn't go anywhere.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 284	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:29:01 - [19] - Quote afkalt wrote: King Fu Hostile wrote: afkalt wrote: You're trying to say that killing the drones is a good idea/counter to ishtars. This is fundamentally bullshit as soon as you have more than a handful on field and you will die in a fire. Which is exactly the same with any ship in game, except you can't even blow up their dps. Rubbish. You know perfectly well what I'm talking about. As the number of ishtars rise, the number of drones rise x5. The ability to split fire/not waste volley fire on drones of the FC/fleet members becomes an impossible task. So a HUGE amount of your dps is wasted. In the interim, the ishtars are tearing into your fleet and god forbid they might need to drop a fresh set. To suggest killing drones is an effective ishtar fleet counter is an utter fabrication. It will work in the very small scale, but the not in the problem area which is bigger fleet combat. What I'm saying is that the option to shoot the drones still exists, unlike in the case of non-drone ships. Whether you have an AF wing to send upon the sentries depends on your resources. For any other ship in X numbers, they also alpha your guys but they will never have to abandon or pull their dps. Consequently the Ishtar isn't overpowered in small scale engagements, and what happens in blobs doesn't really concern anyone.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 534	Posted - 2014.11.28 10:55:33 - [20] - Quote the option exists, but it is a terrible idea at the levels ishtars become troublesome. The ishtar threshold isn't blob levels though. At least not to me. I'd consider blobs at 100+ for fleet/asset defence warfare. 30+ ishtars is about the tipping point where you need them to be bad or you need to significantly outnumber them and drown them in logi. Anyway, veering off topic. Ishtars still far offer too much compared to the peer group. It can fight from point blank out to over 100km with insane DPS, survivability, speed, neuts and ewar resilience. All with one fit <<<< this is the crux of the issue. The ishtar has ZERO fitting compromises.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 428	Posted - 2014.11.28 11:05:33 - [21] - Quote Just make drone controls use like 1000grid. Now an ishtars max range is inside of 60km which allows for other things to actually take effect. Also damps lower drone control range should become a thing too. Join channel Aussies in space to chat with AU/NZ players
Arronicus Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx 1315	Posted - 2014.11.28 11:07:11 - [22] - Quote Every time this comes up, someone proposes just killing the drones, as if they believe it is a viable solution or something. It's rather mind boggling. What if we simply lost the ability to delegate sentries? The ishtar wouldn't lose any pve usefulness, or in small gangs. In fleets, while it wouldnt take any power away from the ishtar, it would force them to actually target and attack the ships being called primary, instead of assigning them to designated drone bunnies, who they can then hit with remote sensor boosts or ECCM.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2023	Posted - 2014.11.28 13:48:21 - [23] - Quote Presidente Gallente wrote: Who in an Ishtar killed your main and what did you lose? Not at all i currently fly ishtars as main fleet. Thing is ishtar is accounting for 8% of all pvp dps. Just like the drake or cane who at thier time were op they were nerfed and new doctrines took over. So too should this happen to tge drake. Its nothing personal and i am not petty to say this ship killed me now nerf. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 2023	Posted - 2014.11.28 13:49:23 - [24] - Quote Leonard Nimoy II wrote: Presidente Gallente wrote: Who in an Ishtar killed your main and what did you lose? ^^ This. EDIT: Also - why would Ishtar get a gun bonus? It's a drone boat. Mine hardly even has guns on it. Same reason eos has hybrid bonus so it encourage use of tge turret high slots. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote: Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Stitch Kaneland Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 53	Posted - 2014.11.28 14:30:39 - [25] - Quote Remove the drone durability bonus. Ishtar has a huge drone bay anyway. It doesnt need a durability bonus plus a damn near never ending supply of drones thanks to the huge dronebay. Durability bonus should really only exist for small and medium drones. This would make popping ishtar drones a bit more viable as a counter.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 130	Posted - 2014.11.28 14:44:17 - [26] - Quote Let ishtars do their damage with current state. - Change heavy drone bonus to medium drone bonus. - Reduce their dronebay/bandwith to 100/50 so they are basically limited to medium drones, which is equal size of the ship (medium fitting ship/medium drones). Also ishtar pilots will start watching their drones since there will be only 2 set of med drones at most. _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Debora Tsung The Investment Bankers Guild 1345	Posted - 2014.11.28 15:42:40 - [27] - Quote Komi Toran wrote: MeBiatch wrote: my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets... Let's take a look: Cerberus: Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Muninn: Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Zealot: Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Proposed Ishtar: Heavy Drone Drone Drone Medium Hybrid Turret One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong. The Zealot ofc, it's the only one that uses pure energy weaponry. Stupidity should be a bannable offense. Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2014.11.28 17:28:55 - [28] - Quote Debora Tsung wrote: Komi Toran wrote: MeBiatch wrote: my suggestion to fix the ishtar is to remove the sentry optial range/tracking bonus all together and replace it with a fall off bonus to medium hybrid turrets... Let's take a look: Cerberus: Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Light, Heavy, Heavy Assault Missile Muninn: Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Medium Projectile Turret Zealot: Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Medium Energy Turret Proposed Ishtar: Heavy Drone Drone Drone Medium Hybrid Turret One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong. The Zealot ofc, it's the only one that uses pure energy weaponry. No! Muninn ofc! It has the only weaponnary that insta-hitting target without any energy! ^.^ _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 995	Posted - 2014.11.28 18:47:21 - [29] - Quote -reduce dronebay to 250 - reduce tracking/velocity bonus too heavies to 5% - reduce drone damage bonus to 5% for sentries and heavies - make drones jammable and affectable by e-war Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 67	Posted - 2014.11.29 05:26:12 - [30] - Quote I know this is not popular in this game but for once please try to look at something other than your own narrow focused PvP mentalities and consider how other non-PvP players use the Ishtar. Since I started playing this game CCP has a habit of over nerfing instead of trying small adjustments over time. They made an adjustment to the Ishtar and now maybe it is time for another. Before we start with the nerf bat that will severely reduce it's usefulness to PvE areas of the game we need to try something like the quote below. Very few PvE players assign drones to assist someone else so this idea would have a minimal impact n the PvE players and it may be all that is needed to bring balance. Arronicus wrote: Every time this comes up, someone proposes just killing the drones, as if they believe it is a viable solution or something. It's rather mind boggling. What if we simply lost the ability to delegate sentries? The ishtar wouldn't lose any pve usefulness, or in small gangs. In fleets, while it wouldnt take any power away from the ishtar, it would force them to actually target and attack the ships being called primary, instead of assigning them to designated drone bunnies, who they can then hit with remote sensor boosts or ECCM. Besides I am not convinced that the Ishtar is OP. I have seen many of my circle of real life friends easily handle Ishtar fleets of 20 to 30 ships by using a 2 pronged approach. Long range heavy DPS with reps to destroy the sentry drones, after all they are literally sitting ducks in space. While a second wing of fast ships warps in close to harass the Ishtar's themselves forcing the pilots to make a choice recall sentries for closer in support options, or simply run away. Either works as it takes the sentry drones out of the battle.

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