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Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:19:04 -
[361] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:
2) Extra accounts - if any mechanic in the game requires you to use alts, its flawed mechanic.
I must have a fleet of some 20+ ships to gank a freighter. Under your logic this mechanic is broken as I should be able to gank and loot said freighter solo.
No you must have 20+ to successfully gank a freighter. You can attempt it solo. The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it. |

Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10775
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:22:16 -
[362] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it.
Nothing prevents them from attempting to align. They just won't succeed.
Just like how you automatically fail to solo gank a freighter, right?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|

Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:22:54 -
[363] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote: CCP really needs to purge the type of player who thinks exploiting a broken mechanic is ok.
There wouldn't be any carebears left if they banned people who exploited broken mechanics. Dec dodging is a textbook exploit. Hey, I am going to declare war on you and you have to say yes because.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................because I say so. As opposed to what you're saying? "they should remove bumping because I can't be bothered to escort my freighter". But hey, you're the one asking for a "purge" of people who exploit broken mechanics, and playing games with the corp creation system is as broken as it gets, and nearly all carebears are guilty. Or, you can just shut your mouth for once, quit crying about bumping, and accept the GM ruling from a long damned time ago that bumping is legit.
Insults already...a sign someone has nothing valid to back up what they are saying.
I win.
Got some advice for you, bring some friends and maybe I wont be able to bump you into tilt so easily....maybe. |

Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:24:31 -
[364] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it. Nothing prevents them from attempting to align. They just won't succeed. Just like how you automatically fail to solo gank a freighter, right?
Nothing prevents them from attempting to align...other than the ship bumping them risk free.
|

Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:30:14 -
[365] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it. Nothing prevents them from attempting to align. They just won't succeed. Just like how you automatically fail to solo gank a freighter, right? Nothing prevents them from attempting to align...other than the ship bumping them risk free.
How about solo ganking a freighter in Low or 0.0? Theres actually a very high chance of success here. However, attempting to align will always fail, even there so its basicaly the same as if it didnt exist. |

Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1387
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:32:02 -
[366] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote: Every valid and legal mechanic in ANY game should have counter-mechanic otherwise it can be marked as "overpowered".
It has one. You're just ignoring it to suit your own purposes. ECM is not a counter that a single ship applies to itself, it's something your friends or alts do for you. Same with remote reps. The counter to being bumped in the single most non-combat ship in the game is to bring friends. Deal with it. You can actually have very capable combat solo blackbird or falcon build that actively ECMs people and then attempts to kill them (sometimes successfully, sometimes not). And if that was a typo and you ment ECCM: ECCM - Magnetometric II: A secondary electronic array that provides a significant boost to sensor strength for a short time. This module affects your ship and nearly doubles your sensor strengh, meaning theres lower chance that your enemy will jamm you on the next cycle. Meaning it counters (to a certain degree) enemy ECM module. All reps fall under "Hitpoint regen mechanic" regardless if its local rep or remote rep. And as for the counter being "bringing more friends"..................All hail the N+1 strategy and lets all welcome the future of EVE which is one giant megablob where everyone holds hands together.
The "giant blob" required to slingshot a freighter is 1 (one) dude with you in fleet. It's not like it require 20+ webs...
I still think bumping mechanic as a bit silly how they can be pushed but we can't really have a better system either so this one works. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14109
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:32:10 -
[367] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:
2) Extra accounts - if any mechanic in the game requires you to use alts, its flawed mechanic.
I must have a fleet of some 20+ ships to gank a freighter. Under your logic this mechanic is broken as I should be able to gank and loot said freighter solo. No you must have 20+ to successfully gank a freighter. You can attempt it solo. The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it.
So, because I can suicide into the side of a freighter causing no damage and having zero chance of every killing it let alone looting its cargo you think you should get a way to beat the efforts of a fleet over 20+ people all by yourself?
Every month that goes by the more I think Idiocracy was a documentary.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|

Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10775
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:32:29 -
[368] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote: Insults already...a sign someone has nothing valid to back up what they are saying.
I win.
Got some advice for you, bring some friends and maybe I wont be able to bump you into tilt so easily....maybe.
I didn't insult you. Idk what post you read.
Next time, bring an actual argument and you won't have to resort to just flagrantly making stuff up.
Quote: Nothing prevents them from attempting to align...other than the ship bumping them risk free.
So then nothing is wrong. Heck, unlike with failing a solo gank, it is actual player actions preventing you from doing something, instead of the worthless NPCs. And one player action can get you out of it, webbing.
Sounds like it's working to me.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|

Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1387
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:40:20 -
[369] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:
2) Extra accounts - if any mechanic in the game requires you to use alts, its flawed mechanic.
I must have a fleet of some 20+ ships to gank a freighter. Under your logic this mechanic is broken as I should be able to gank and loot said freighter solo. No you must have 20+ to successfully gank a freighter. You can attempt it solo. The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it. So, because I can suicide into the side of a freighter causing no damage and having zero chance of every killing it let alone looting its cargo you think you should get a way to beat the efforts of a fleet over 20+ people all by yourself? Every month that goes by the more I think Idiocracy was a documentary.
I am not versed into ganking so would freighter gank fail if you had to hold point on it? |

Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:42:58 -
[370] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:
2) Extra accounts - if any mechanic in the game requires you to use alts, its flawed mechanic.
I must have a fleet of some 20+ ships to gank a freighter. Under your logic this mechanic is broken as I should be able to gank and loot said freighter solo. No you must have 20+ to successfully gank a freighter. You can attempt it solo. The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it. So, because I can suicide into the side of a freighter causing no damage and having zero chance of every killing it let alone looting its cargo you think you should get a way to beat the efforts of a fleet over 20+ people all by yourself? Every month that goes by the more I think Idiocracy was a documentary.
You can sucessfully gank it in low and 0.0. Hell, if you have 2 points, you can kill two of them just by yourself (assuming no one else gets invloved). However, attempting to align will ALWAYS fail, regardless of place and sec. status. So its the same as if it didnt exist at all.
And please, dont go into "personal insults" stage. I really dont want this thread to spiral into something childish and I guess you dont want it either. |

Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10775
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:48:29 -
[371] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: I am not versed into ganking so would freighter gank fail if you had to hold point on it?
*cough gate guns cough*
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|

Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:52:48 -
[372] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: I am not versed into ganking so would freighter gank fail if you had to hold point on it?
*cough gate guns cough*
What if you gank it in place where there are no gate guns like POCO, unfinished POS or even player Outpost? |

Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10775
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 18:55:21 -
[373] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: I am not versed into ganking so would freighter gank fail if you had to hold point on it?
*cough gate guns cough* What if you gank it in place where there are no gate guns like POCO, unfinished POS or even player Outpost?
What in the hell are you talking about? I was answering their question.
Freighters aren't solely bumped to prevent warp, they are very often bumped off grid to avoid the onerous reach of gate guns.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|

Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1387
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 19:01:19 -
[374] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: I am not versed into ganking so would freighter gank fail if you had to hold point on it?
*cough gate guns cough*
The ships live long enough to DPS the freighter down but not enough to hold point?
If it's for the setup time, then you are telling me it's normal to have a warp disruption effect of unlimited duration without any single aggression mechanic just because the ship is a whale. That is where my small issue with bumping come from. It will of course never get changed because anything would probably be worse but saying it's just normal sound kinda stupid to me. |

Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 19:10:05 -
[375] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: I am not versed into ganking so would freighter gank fail if you had to hold point on it?
*cough gate guns cough* What if you gank it in place where there are no gate guns like POCO, unfinished POS or even player Outpost? What in the hell are you talking about? I was answering their question. Freighters aren't solely bumped to prevent warp, they are very often bumped off grid to avoid the onerous reach of gate guns.
Ok so now you are saying, that bumping also creates a mechanic that effectively allows you to "tractor" any ship to desirable position. A mechanic that cannot be directly generated by using any module in the game.
If that isnt the meaning of "not working as intended" and "broken mechanic" then i dont know what is.... |

Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
226
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 19:37:20 -
[376] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:Ok so now you are saying, that bumping also creates a mechanic that effectively allows you to "tractor" any ship to desirable position. A mechanic that cannot be directly generated by using any module in the game.
If that isnt the meaning of "not working as intended" and "broken mechanic" then i dont know what is....
It's an emergent mechanic resulting from the fundamental design of the game - just like so much warfare revolves around station docking mechanics, or gate camping because of how ships move around the game universe. Therefore, as CCP has ruled, it is working as intended.
I am not sure what you are trying to get out of continuing this conversation. Do you have a practical suggestion to make things better? If so please share it - or better yet post it in the F&I forum. You seem to just be ranting about something that has long been accepted as a valid mechanic/tactic in the game.
Perhaps we should confine our discussion the best practical ways to deal with bumping as the OP asked.
Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
|

Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 20:02:09 -
[377] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:Ok so now you are saying, that bumping also creates a mechanic that effectively allows you to "tractor" any ship to desirable position. A mechanic that cannot be directly generated by using any module in the game.
If that isnt the meaning of "not working as intended" and "broken mechanic" then i dont know what is.... It's an emergent mechanic resulting from the fundamental design of the game - just like so much warfare revolves around station docking mechanics, or gate camping because of how ships move around the game universe. Therefore, as CCP has ruled, it is working as intended. I am not sure what you are trying to get out of continuing this conversation. Do you have a practical suggestion to make things better? If so please share it - or better yet post it in the F&I forum. You seem to just be ranting about something that has long been accepted as a valid mechanic/tactic in the game. Perhaps we should confine our discussion the best practical ways to deal with bumping as the OP asked.
How about making it that ships can be bumped only by ships with the same or bigger mass? If the number is lower, bigger ship doesnt move and smaller ship bumps itself away.
As for giving advice on how to deal with bumping, my best advice is to simply fit armor tank on provi (it can pull pretty insane numbers) and bulkheads on the rest to discourage any attack and suicide gank attempt and just wait it out. I dont think that 24 seconds with agi fit is enough to avoid any bumping attempt. If they leave, continue with hauling. If, after a bit longer time they dont, report them for harassment without taking any hostile action. |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14109
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 20:24:37 -
[378] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:Ok so now you are saying, that bumping also creates a mechanic that effectively allows you to "tractor" any ship to desirable position. A mechanic that cannot be directly generated by using any module in the game.
If that isnt the meaning of "not working as intended" and "broken mechanic" then i dont know what is.... It's an emergent mechanic resulting from the fundamental design of the game - just like so much warfare revolves around station docking mechanics, or gate camping because of how ships move around the game universe. Therefore, as CCP has ruled, it is working as intended. I am not sure what you are trying to get out of continuing this conversation. Do you have a practical suggestion to make things better? If so please share it - or better yet post it in the F&I forum. You seem to just be ranting about something that has long been accepted as a valid mechanic/tactic in the game. Perhaps we should confine our discussion the best practical ways to deal with bumping as the OP asked. How about making it that ships can be bumped only by ships with the same or bigger mass? If the number is lower, bigger ship doesnt move and smaller ship bumps itself away. As for giving advice on how to deal with bumping, my best advice is to simply fit armor tank on provi (it can pull pretty insane numbers) and bulkheads on the rest to discourage any attack and suicide gank attempt and just wait it out. I dont think that 24 seconds with agi fit is enough to avoid any bumping attempt. If they leave, continue with hauling. If, after a bit longer time they dont, report them for harassment without taking any hostile action.
How about the freighter pilot uses the simple, cheap and easy to use tools they currently have to stop bumping?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14109
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 20:27:48 -
[379] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:
2) Extra accounts - if any mechanic in the game requires you to use alts, its flawed mechanic.
I must have a fleet of some 20+ ships to gank a freighter. Under your logic this mechanic is broken as I should be able to gank and loot said freighter solo. No you must have 20+ to successfully gank a freighter. You can attempt it solo. The same way a freighter pilot should be able to attempt to get "unbumped" IF there were any mechanic or module allowing it. So, because I can suicide into the side of a freighter causing no damage and having zero chance of every killing it let alone looting its cargo you think you should get a way to beat the efforts of a fleet over 20+ people all by yourself? Every month that goes by the more I think Idiocracy was a documentary. You can sucessfully gank it in low and 0.0. Hell, if you have 2 points, you can kill two of them just by yourself (assuming no one else gets invloved). However, attempting to align will ALWAYS fail, regardless of place and sec. status. So its the same as if it didnt exist at all. And please, dont go into "personal insults" stage. I really dont want this thread to spiral into something childish and I guess you dont want it either.
That wasnt a personal insult, that was me calling a stupid argument a stupid argument.
As for the rest, ganking only happens in high sec so any refrences to activities outside of high sec is pointless.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Sugar Smacks
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 21:32:36 -
[380] - Quote
Setting freighters aside for a secound i do see bumping in the list of harrassment and you should ask when does harassment start?
I can sit in and mine away then i get bumped, thats ok ill just head back, then they offer to duel over and over until i block it, then come the form fleet spams, when exactly is that line crossed?
When do we see it go from a gank (that never happens) to a pathetic outreach to achieve someones results by any illicit way possible? Sounds more like grief play.
Defend away, "this is EVE". |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14109
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 22:02:05 -
[381] - Quote
Sugar Smacks wrote:Setting freighters aside for a secound i do see bumping in the list of harrassment and you should ask when does harassment start?
I can sit in and mine away then i get bumped, thats ok ill just head back, then they offer to duel over and over until i block it, then come the form fleet spams, when exactly is that line crossed?
When do we see it go from a gank (that never happens) to a pathetic outreach to achieve someones results by any illicit way possible? Sounds more like grief play.
Defend away, "this is EVE".
Using the same logic people should be banned from using guns in high sec because someone could follow you around and blow you up every time you undock. Also we need to ban the ability to loot so people cant follow you around and swipe your mission objectives. Oh and lets not forget about people mining out your rocks from under you everywhere you go.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders DARKNESS.
2590
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 22:04:18 -
[382] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Using the same logic people should be banned from using guns in high sec because someone could follow you around and blow you up every time you undock. Also we need to ban the ability to loot so people cant follow you around and swipe your mission objectives. Oh and lets not forget about people mining out your rocks from under you everywhere you go.
Man, people suck. |

Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 22:19:32 -
[383] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Sugar Smacks wrote:Setting freighters aside for a secound i do see bumping in the list of harrassment and you should ask when does harassment start?
I can sit in and mine away then i get bumped, thats ok ill just head back, then they offer to duel over and over until i block it, then come the form fleet spams, when exactly is that line crossed?
When do we see it go from a gank (that never happens) to a pathetic outreach to achieve someones results by any illicit way possible? Sounds more like grief play.
Defend away, "this is EVE". Using the same logic people should be banned from using guns in high sec because someone could follow you around and blow you up every time you undock. Also we need to ban the ability to loot so people cant follow you around and swipe your mission objectives. Oh and lets not forget about people mining out your rocks from under you everywhere you go.
This is different. All of the above can be solved by changing system (jump cloning or pod express - limited but still possible) or logging off once in station. However, the instant someone bumps your ship they can keep you in space for eternity. You simply cant change system (since you even cant warp) and you cant log off (well you can, but your ship will then warp back to the same spot assuming it managed to pull the emergency warp). |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14110
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 22:37:36 -
[384] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote:
This is different.
Its exactly the same argument.
Senyu Takashi wrote: All of the above can be solved by changing system (jump cloning or pod express - limited but still possible) or logging off once in station.
Nope, in order for the above to be classed as harassment the victim needs to be followed by the assailant everywhere he goes, the same rule applies to bumping.
Senyu Takashi wrote: However, the instant someone bumps your ship they can keep you in space for eternity. You simply cant change system (since you even cant warp) and you cant log off (well you can, but your ship will then warp back to the same spot assuming it managed to pull the emergency warp).
Still not harassment. There are ways to get out of being bumped, you choosing to not use them does not mean CCP needs to step in to protect you.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 23:21:19 -
[385] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote:
This is different.
Its exactly the same argument. Senyu Takashi wrote: All of the above can be solved by changing system (jump cloning or pod express - limited but still possible) or logging off once in station.
Nope, in order for the above to be classed as harassment the victim needs to be followed by the assailant everywhere he goes, the same rule applies to bumping. Senyu Takashi wrote: However, the instant someone bumps your ship they can keep you in space for eternity. You simply cant change system (since you even cant warp) and you cant log off (well you can, but your ship will then warp back to the same spot assuming it managed to pull the emergency warp).
Still not harassment. There are ways to get out of being bumped, you choosing to not use them does not mean CCP needs to step in to protect you. I guess by "ways to get out of bumping" you mean, for example, bringing a friend to web you or having a webbing alt. And what should the pilot do when all of his friends/corpmates are offline (sleeping, at work etc....)? Are you seriously proposing that people should be forced to drop another 15 EUR on this game for second account just to get out of bumping? If yes, then I have to question your judgement (no offense). |

Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 23:22:43 -
[386] - Quote
Setting freighters aside for a secound i do see bumping in the list of harrassment and you should ask when does harassment start?
I can sit in and mine away then i get bumped, thats ok ill just head back, then they offer to duel over and over until i block it, then come the form fleet spams, when exactly is that line crossed?
When do we see it go from a gank (that never happens) to a pathetic outreach to achieve someones results by any illicit way possible? Sounds more like grief play.
Defend away, "this is EVE". |

baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14110
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 23:34:55 -
[387] - Quote
Senyu Takashi wrote: I guess by "ways to get out of bumping" you mean, for example, bringing a friend to web you or having a webbing alt. And what should the pilot do when all of his friends/corpmates are offline (sleeping, at work etc....)? Are you seriously proposing that people should be forced to drop another 15 EUR on this game for second account just to get out of bumping? If yes, then I have to question your judgement (no offense).
Nanofibers and inertia stabilizers.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Senyu Takashi
NGC research and development Imperium of Rising Luna
5
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 23:49:42 -
[388] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Senyu Takashi wrote: I guess by "ways to get out of bumping" you mean, for example, bringing a friend to web you or having a webbing alt. And what should the pilot do when all of his friends/corpmates are offline (sleeping, at work etc....)? Are you seriously proposing that people should be forced to drop another 15 EUR on this game for second account just to get out of bumping? If yes, then I have to question your judgement (no offense).
Nanofibers and inertia stabilizers. That doesnt work for all ships. Orca, for example will still have big align time. Even nano-fit deep space transport (which is ship purely intended for solohauling) has align of about 10 seconds, which is enough to initiate bumping. |

Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
299
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 23:51:45 -
[389] - Quote
If I'm expected to have alts in order to fly my titan properly, why do you expect any different when flying the largest ships capable of flying in high security space. |

Kaarous Aldurald
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
10777
|
Posted - 2014.12.05 23:57:15 -
[390] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:If I'm expected to have alts in order to fly my titan properly, why do you expect any different when flying the largest ships capable of flying in high security space.
Because they think they're special.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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