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Aiyshimin Shiva Furnace Unsettled. 171	Posted - 2014.12.04 08:42:46 - [181] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: To be clear...there will always be destruction available in low/null/whs. The question is how much destruction in highsec contributes to the game. And I think the evidence shows that the impact of a pvp free highsec would be minimal. There just isn't that much destruction right now...and it's mostly poor people losing ships. Other than CODE in Uedama, suicide ganking in the rest of empire is pretty sporadic and sparse. Let's see we got rid of it entirely? How much would the game really change? I disagree with this. I've done my own research on this, on top of being a high-sec warrior myself, and all evidence points to high-sec being the largest contributor to pvp destruction in the game. Furthermore, CCP has put out plenty of information on the matter, including in the QEN reports, such as this one: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf Page 36 is what you're looking for. "Figure 18:Total value of ships destroyed in PvP in each region in July 2010. The bigger the bubbles, the greater the value destroyed. More value is generally destroyed in empire space than in null security space, largely because of the population factor. The figures for the various null security regions undoubtedly vary significantly from month to month, based on the wars being waged. " I'd venture to guess that the ratio of destruction is even higher in high-sec today than it was back in 2010. Actual highsec PVP is 90% RvB, and destroyed value is simply due to freighter ganks. Suicide ganks, awoxing and wardecs in general have more negative consequences to the game and especially new player retention, and very little value would be lost if they were removed or made more difficult.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2364	Posted - 2014.12.04 08:50:07 - [182] - Quote Ascended Lantean wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: The cost of the hulls and equipment required to destroy a standard freighter approaches the cost of said freighter.. No it doesn't. It's nowhere near that. Let's look at the first kill I posted: https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/42791439/ 7 people, 4 of them in a Catalyst, which costs 15m fitted, and then 3 in Talos, which costs below 120m fitted. Right. You realize that 3 T2 expanders cut your EHP almost in half, right? I said standard freighter. Also, I'm not sure what's up with those Taloses, but 32,000 damage is a huge outlier. In the amount of time you have to work with in a .5, which is around 17 seconds, the average amount of overheated damage that you can pop out is around 24,000. A standard Freighter's EHP is around 225,000 (Obelisk: 137.5k hull, ~70k armor, ~20k shields), which means that you'd need at least 9 Taloses, on average, to guarantee a kill. Each one costs 110 million to set up, with a sunk cost of 90 million if half of the fittings are recovered, and they usually aren't. That's a sunk cost of almost 1 billion ISK, compared to an insured freighter's sunk cost of around 900 million. You see, I'm involved in these things, and knowing and understanding the math behind them is very important for me. And thus, you're wrong. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Ascended Lantean Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 2	Posted - 2014.12.04 08:56:18 - [183] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: [quote=Ascended Lantean][A standard Freighter's EHP is around 225,000 (Obelisk: 137.5k hull, ~70k armor, ~20k shields), which means that you'd need at least 9 Taloses, on average, to guarantee a kill. Or 20 catalysts, which brings the cost to 300M. In fact, you can kill a Jump Freighter with catalysts alone, below the 1B cost mark. The ship costs 7B.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2364	Posted - 2014.12.04 08:59:25 - [184] - Quote Ascended Lantean wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: [quote=Ascended Lantean][A standard Freighter's EHP is around 225,000 (Obelisk: 137.5k hull, ~70k armor, ~20k shields), which means that you'd need at least 9 Taloses, on average, to guarantee a kill. Or 20 catalysts, which brings the cost to 300M. In fact, you can kill a Jump Freighter with catalysts alone, below the 1B cost mark. The ship costs 7B. Catalysts are supremely ineffective for conducting ganks at gates. If you don't believe me, I recommend you go and try it out. However, generally speaking, destroyers are very efficient for ganking. You can blame CCP for that, and not the players. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Ascended Lantean Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 2	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:02:40 - [185] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: You can blame CCP for that, and not the players. I blame CCP for the whole situation, players are not expected to not take advantage of broken ingame mechanics.
Square PI Hedion University Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:03:04 - [186] - Quote This whole discussion remind me on the commercial spot in one Simpsons episode. TIC TAC TOE; X vs O. No idea why, but this picture cant get out of my head when i read this here :).
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2364	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:06:37 - [187] - Quote Thing is, lowering destroyer DPS would render them nearly useless, like they were before the buff. Destroyers get shredded by gate guns in pretty much one volley, so one potential fix could be lowering gate gun dps while raising gate gun rate of fire, to make the gate guns chew through a destroyer blob quicker. This would bridge the cost/return ratio between destroyers and freighters a bit. But take my word for it: even now, gate guns pop destroyers like a fat kid pops jelly beans. One volley and you lose 2-3 of them each time. They're more survivable in mixed fleets, because there's other stuff to absorb the incoming damage for a while. They're good for popping low-end haulers, and belt miners, but freighter-ganking is more of a cruiser/battlecruiser affair. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lister Dax Intergalactic Trade and Harm 31	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:12:50 - [188] - Quote Ascended Lantean wrote: In fact, you can kill a Jump Freighter with catalysts alone, below the 1B cost mark. The ship costs 7B. And...
Aiyshimin Shiva Furnace Unsettled. 171	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:19:30 - [189] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK. Compare that to just the Marmite Collective, which averaged 325 daily kills in November, with a daily destroyed value of almost 30 billion ISK. And that's just one of hundreds of high-sec organizations conducting wars. 90% indeed. I can do this all day, guys. I have all the research in my pocket. RvB in December so far averages 1490 kills per day, at some point they accounted for 8% or all PVP kills in the game.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2364	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:24:36 - [190] - Quote Aiyshimin wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK. Compare that to just the Marmite Collective, which averaged 325 daily kills in November, with a daily destroyed value of almost 30 billion ISK. And that's just one of hundreds of high-sec organizations conducting wars. 90% indeed. I can do this all day, guys. I have all the research in my pocket. RvB in December so far averages 1490 kills per day, at some point they accounted for 8% or all PVP kills in the game. I'm looking at their boards right now, and the average is currently 23 kills per hour, or 555 kills per day. This includes out-of-contest kills as well, such as against other entities who are at war with them, low-sec/gank losses, etc etc. I have no idea where you're getting your info from. Yes, 555/day is bigger than their 325/day average over the past 22 months, but these numbers obviously oscillate, and December has traditionally been a month of higher activity. The daily combined average for RvB during the past 22 months is 325 kills, equating to 5.15 billion ISK per day. This doesn't even begin to compare with the sum total of the destruction that happens in all other high-sec wars in EVE on a daily basis. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Sabriz Adoudel Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 3926	Posted - 2014.12.04 09:41:27 - [191] - Quote Ascended Lantean wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: [quote=Ascended Lantean][A standard Freighter's EHP is around 225,000 (Obelisk: 137.5k hull, ~70k armor, ~20k shields), which means that you'd need at least 9 Taloses, on average, to guarantee a kill. Or 20 catalysts, which brings the cost to 300M. In fact, you can kill a Jump Freighter with catalysts alone, below the 1B cost mark. The ship costs 7B. Let's get the prices correct here. 20 Catalysts cost 180 M in ship fittings, plus six hours of player time (the most efficient freighter gank teams can't kill more than 1 per 18 minutes). Most are closer to 24 minutes so eight player hours. Six hours of player time is an opportunity cost of 300-400 million (if the players are low to medium SP) or 600+ million (if they are high SP). Finally the freighter pilot receives an insurance payout (net) of 40-70% of the hull base, and if the Cat pilots are not running -10, they need an average of 15m worth of tags each per gank. Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14084	Posted - 2014.12.04 10:26:12 - [192] - Quote Ascended Lantean wrote: So, we have the bumping mechanic that allows a single player to keep another in space indefinitely, and for the suicide ganks to happen without sec status penalty for the bumper. Then we have the cost of ganking so low that it allows gank fleets to effectively shut down a trade route with no risk or huge cost involved, for no apparent reason other than harassment. Then we have the bounty/kill right system, which for people with -10 sec status simply doesn't work, because: 1. They are shoot on sight anywhere, anyway. 2. They fly cheap ships like a Catalyst or a Tornado. So, several broken game mechanics are involved in this, and then we have the players being told it's their fault when the game heavily favors the gankers and leaves no chance for the peaceful players. Someone would say "There is no place for peaceful activities, the game is dangerous". Well, it is, but it's also a sandbox, which means anyone should be able to play it the way they like. If you want to be a happy carebear, you should be able to do so, and there should be a place in game which allows you that. Currently a group of people is destroying the sandbox nature of the game, trying to dictate their own rules and preventing entire styles of gameplay. Bumping is easily countered with a webbing ship or having a fast ship fly in front of the webbed freighter to provide a warp point or by counter bumping the bumpers. Cost of ganking starts in the hundreds of millions and goes into to the billions depending on how well protected the target is. if we are shoot on site then shoot us Nado is 80-90 mil each and can be blown up for profit by a gank cat. None of the thing you mention are broken and all have multiple counters. This game is indeed sandbox, you can play as you wish but that works both ways. The only person wanting to prevent entire styles of gameplay here is you. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Ascended Lantean Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 2	Posted - 2014.12.04 10:37:06 - [193] - Quote So, "easily countered" means you either need to pay for a second account or someone needs to escort you at all times, which is impossible if you make 300-400 jumps a day, half of them flying empty. You are effectively destroying solo play in high sec.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14084	Posted - 2014.12.04 10:46:07 - [194] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: There is a staggering amount of conflict free isk in the game. Nearly all PvE is done conflict free. Ratting, missions, mining, solo plexing fw, etc....these are all done conflict free 99% of the time. If you want a game where isk is earned through conflict....go somewhere else. The potential for conflict is there, and that's what matters. Potential for conflict is everywhere.....you can always be shot at. The actuality of conflict is not there. The fact that people feel safe AFK carrier ratting in a 3 billion isk ship in Dekklein while doing laundry and playing minecraft should tell you that the potential is theoretical, not practical. Yep Dek is 100% safe Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14084	Posted - 2014.12.04 10:48:50 - [195] - Quote Ascended Lantean wrote: So, "easily countered" means you either need to pay for a second account or someone needs to escort you at all times, which is impossible if you make 300-400 jumps a day, half of them flying empty. You are effectively destroying solo play in high sec. We need a fleet to gank you yet here you are complaining about needing ONE person. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14084	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:03:23 - [196] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK. Blue Republic3,021 Red Federation2,933 They are the most destructive corps in EVE let alone highsec. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2365	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:09:05 - [197] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK. Blue Republic3,021 Red Federation2,933 They are the most destructive corps in EVE let alone highsec. What period of time are those numbers for, and where are you getting them from? For the record, I'm getting the daily average over the past 22 months directly from the war interface in the game itself, and the daily numbers for November/December from their web killboard. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Square PI Hedion University Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:11:26 - [198] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: And I think the evidence shows that the impact of a pvp free highsec would be minimal. You thinking it means very little, if not literally nothing. You've demonstrated time and again you don't know enough about this game to come to a conclusion like this, not to mention how often you contradict yourself. If you want a PVP-free highsec then EVE is not for you, it's that simple, because EVE is in its entirety and in every aspect a PVP game. I find these comments always really interessting. Most mean with PVP only the pew pew. But lets see. What part of EVE can not be removed? What part is so essencial that the game can not live without? Just a small hint, it is not PVP (pew pew). It is not even the general PVP. Basicly you have to measure a game on the fundamental parts. Parts that have to be there so the game can work.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14084	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:12:54 - [199] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: baltec1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: I see a lot of assumptions here. You have any data to back these claims up? Because according to my calculations, RvB is responsible for a daily average of about 350 ship destructions, with a daily destroyed value of around 5 billion ISK. Blue Republic3,021 Red Federation2,933 They are the most destructive corps in EVE let alone highsec. What period of time are those numbers for, and where are you getting them from? For the record, I'm getting the daily average over the past 22 months directly from the war interface in the game itself, and the daily numbers for November/December from their web killboard. This months killmails. The pilot Rejuice K of Blue Republic for example has more kills this month than your average. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14084	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:16:15 - [200] - Quote Square PI wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: And I think the evidence shows that the impact of a pvp free highsec would be minimal. You thinking it means very little, if not literally nothing. You've demonstrated time and again you don't know enough about this game to come to a conclusion like this, not to mention how often you contradict yourself. If you want a PVP-free highsec then EVE is not for you, it's that simple, because EVE is in its entirety and in every aspect a PVP game. I find these comments always really interessting. Most mean with PVP only the pew pew. But lets see. What part of EVE can not be removed? What part is so essencial that the game can not live without? Just a small hint, it is not PVP (pew pew). It is not even the general PVP. Basicly you have to measure a game on the fundamental parts. Parts that have to be there so the game can work. Remove PvP and the entire economy collapses. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship

Remiel Pollard Layman's Terms. Don't Tell Me The Odds 6118	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:19:56 - [201] - Quote Square PI wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: And I think the evidence shows that the impact of a pvp free highsec would be minimal. You thinking it means very little, if not literally nothing. You've demonstrated time and again you don't know enough about this game to come to a conclusion like this, not to mention how often you contradict yourself. If you want a PVP-free highsec then EVE is not for you, it's that simple, because EVE is in its entirety and in every aspect a PVP game. I find these comments always really interessting. Most mean with PVP only the pew pew. But lets see. What part of EVE can not be removed? What part is so essencial that the game can not live without? Just a small hint, it is not PVP (pew pew). It is not even the general PVP. Basicly you have to measure a game on the fundamental parts. Parts that have to be there so the game can work. PVP is the foundation of EVE online. It's not a small part, but it is the very core of the game. Like a shooter can't be a shooter without guns, and a racing game can't be a racing game without race vehicles, EVE can't be EVE without PVP. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2366	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:22:34 - [202] - Quote baltec1 wrote: This months killmails. Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14084	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:24:43 - [203] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: baltec1 wrote: This months killmails. Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December. Last months I should have said. Still, 1023 kills in 4 days... Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2366	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:28:44 - [204] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: baltec1 wrote: This months killmails. Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December. Last months I should have said. Still, 1023 kills in 4 days... It's 1023 + 876 kills in 84 hours as of this writing, which is 542 kills per day, which is very much in line with the math I've previously posted, and shows that RvB is responsible for only a small fraction of destruction in high-sec by ship count, and an even smaller fraction of destruction in high-sec by ISK count, because something like 75% of the ships used in RvB are frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. And like I said before, Marmite gets ~300 kills per day alone, and they're just one of the countless warrior entities in high-sec. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 14085	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:34:59 - [205] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: baltec1 wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: baltec1 wrote: This months killmails. Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong, I see that Red scored 1023 kills and Blue scored 876 kills so far in December. Last months I should have said. Still, 1023 kills in 4 days... It's 1023 + 876 kills in 84 hours as of this writing, which is 542 kills per day, which is very much in line with the math I've previously posted, and shows that RvB is responsible for only a small fraction of destruction in high-sec by ship count, and an even smaller fraction of destruction in high-sec by ISK count, because something like 75% of the ships used in RvB are frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. And like I said before, Marmite gets ~300 kills per day alone, and they're just one of the countless warrior entities in high-sec. Oh my bad, I read that as monthly. Marmite were the seventh most destructive alliance in EVE last month, Red and Blue republics were 4th and 5th. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2366	Posted - 2014.12.04 11:38:38 - [206] - Quote Right, I don't dispute that they're in the upper echelons. I'm just saying that as part of the total, they're just a small fraction. Marmite is a small fraction as well, because the total is actually huge. The person to whom I originally presented the math to said that RvB accounted for 90% of all pvp destruction in high-sec, and that all other high-sec pvp is so insignificant in scope, that its removal wouldn't have any impact aside from making new players happier. Clearly that isn't true. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 302	Posted - 2014.12.04 12:20:43 - [207] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Right, I don't dispute that they're in the upper echelons. I'm just saying that as part of the total, they're just a small fraction. Marmite is a small fraction as well, because the total is actually huge. The person to whom I originally presented the math to said that RvB accounted for 90% of all pvp destruction in high-sec, and that all other high-sec pvp is so insignificant in scope, that its removal wouldn't have any impact aside from making new players happier. Clearly that isn't true. I think you are confusing ganking mission runners, rookie ships and pods in Jita for PVP RvB probably covers more than 90% of actual hisec fights also, nobody gives a **** about isk values
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 2366	Posted - 2014.12.04 12:29:05 - [208] - Quote I'm not confusing anything; pvp is pvp, and neither party has to be willing. Also, you're wrong and/or severely uninformed. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here: https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Remiel Pollard Layman's Terms. Don't Tell Me The Odds 6121	Posted - 2014.12.04 14:26:25 - [209] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: RvB probably covers more than 90% of actual hisec fights Citation needed. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 302	Posted - 2014.12.04 14:40:04 - [210] - Quote Go ahead and name some other PVP entity operating in hisec See?



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