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Highsec needs higher level content with worse rewards.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Quintessen Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos 457	Posted - 2014.12.07 00:37:50 - [1] - Quote Currently high sec is limited to low-end content. What I'm looking for is more difficult content that is harder to accomplish, and I'm willing to take lower rewards to compensate for the lower risk of doing that content in high sec. Right now the content in high sec is not only easy, but boring. I understand CCP's strategy of trying to entice people away from high sec and into low and null, but some people just aren't interested and crappy content feels like it is just driving players away.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 4014	Posted - 2014.12.07 01:36:20 - [2] - Quote Quintessen wrote: Currently high sec is limited to low-end content. What I'm looking for is more difficult content that is harder to accomplish, and I'm willing to take lower rewards to compensate for the lower risk of doing that content in high sec. Right now the content in high sec is not only easy, but boring. I understand CCP's strategy of trying to entice people away from high sec and into low and null, but some people just aren't interested and crappy content feels like it is just driving players away. I don't necessarily see any problem with this. More challenging but not necessarily more rewarding. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Aran Hotchkiss Phoibe Enterprises 19	Posted - 2014.12.07 01:53:26 - [3] - Quote Taking into account the delicate balance of risk/reward, hisev, lowsec, null, blue doughnuts, wormholes, and isk inflation etc. how do you feel incursions sit into the scheme of content in hisec?
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 352	Posted - 2014.12.07 01:57:17 - [4] - Quote Quintessen wrote: Currently high sec is limited to low-end content. What I'm looking for is more difficult content that is harder to accomplish, and I'm willing to take lower rewards to compensate for the lower risk of doing that content in high sec. Right now the content in high sec is not only easy, but boring. I understand CCP's strategy of trying to entice people away from high sec and into low and null, but some people just aren't interested and crappy content feels like it is just driving players away. Why would people do more risky things for lesser rewards? I mean you could put L5s back at L4 reward levels, but why would anyone do them? If the content gets much harder you would also need to let people use capital ships in highsec.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 4014	Posted - 2014.12.07 02:03:28 - [5] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: Why would people do more risky things for lesser rewards? I mean you could put L5s back at L4 reward levels, but why would anyone do them? If the content gets much harder you would also need to let people use capital ships in highsec. For the challenge/entertainment. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 352	Posted - 2014.12.07 02:57:00 - [6] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: Why would people do more risky things for lesser rewards? I mean you could put L5s back at L4 reward levels, but why would anyone do them? If the content gets much harder you would also need to let people use capital ships in highsec. For the challenge/entertainment. Can you give some examples in the game of people voluntarily doing high risk PvE activities for lesser reward? The staggering risk aversion and min/maxxing of PvE players would suggest that these things would remain as desolate as nullsec incursions.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 4014	Posted - 2014.12.07 03:07:26 - [7] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: Can you give some examples in the game of people voluntarily doing high risk PvE activities for lesser reward? The staggering risk aversion and min/maxxing of PvE players would suggest that these things would remain as desolate as nullsec incursions. Are there even high-risk PvE activities in high-sec? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
zus evefinity 24	Posted - 2014.12.07 03:17:25 - [8] - Quote A thought, What if missions are more alive more adaptive and adjust to their adversary - Starting soft and testing you and then asking for more reinforcements - Depending your weaknesses and their needs in defense attack and in E-War,with less ships but more intelligent , Missions are ease because we know what to expect and we are prepared
Tear Jar Emolgranlan Code Enforcement Branch 187	Posted - 2014.12.07 03:25:25 - [9] - Quote The proper way to handle this is to give rewards that are orthoganal to current rewards. Like, the new harder content gives a special type of LP that can be used to get unique implants, so the free market dictates how hard the content is.
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 352	Posted - 2014.12.07 03:50:58 - [10] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: Can you give some examples in the game of people voluntarily doing high risk PvE activities for lesser reward? The staggering risk aversion and min/maxxing of PvE players would suggest that these things would remain as desolate as nullsec incursions. Are there even high-risk PvE activities in high-sec? Sure...nullsec incursions. The risk comes from the PvP element. The only legitimately risky PvE activity would be L5 missions or escalations in highsec where you couldn't use capitals. That would be...scary....and no one would do them.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2035	Posted - 2014.12.07 04:03:50 - [11] - Quote You realise ppl do level 5's in subcaps in low already right? incursions kind of already are the more difficult content in hi-sec. edit- oh and there are burner missions as well now. Hopefully being expanded in the future. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2035	Posted - 2014.12.07 04:05:11 - [12] - Quote Read title, gave like without reading post body. Read post. Yep, I was right. This was worth a like. I'd like to see more difficult mission content (in all space) designed for smaller ships. I dislike that battleships and battlecruisers are the go-to ship for running missions and anomalies. I think that larger ships should struggle to pop the smaller rats, and that missions should be designed for optimum performance with a specific ship size. It'd be neat to have level 3 frigate missions, or level 1 cruiser missions, for instance. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Sgt Soulless Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 20	Posted - 2014.12.07 04:05:36 - [13] - Quote The problem with PvE content in high-sec is mostly that it's super repetitive. The solution isn't "harder" content with crappy rewards. It's randomized content that you can't google and get a solution for off a website. In Eve, intelligence is the biggest part of combat (pve or pvp), and the static nature of PvE content is what really makes it too easy. The other problem is that what makes a good ship for most PvE content is not a good ship for PvP. A lot of that is the result of the fact that most NPCs don't behave like player ships at all. If they did, then PvE ships and PvE players might be more prepared to deal with PvP when moving into low and null sec space, and so the currently enormous jump in risk would be mitigated somewhat.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2036	Posted - 2014.12.07 04:40:47 - [14] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: It'd be neat to have level 3 frigate missions, or level 1 cruiser missions, for instance. Hell yes. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1753	Posted - 2014.12.07 05:03:26 - [15] - Quote Do most of those lvl 4's without a guide or having done them before and you will find them difficult as anything. Triggers will be popped wrongly (since they operate on triggers), you won't know where each wave comes from, or what weapons/range they like. Or if they come with Ewar. Seriously, try missions without a guide and without having memorised them. They are plenty hard enough. The problem comes from the scripted nature making it easy to perfectly negate that difficulty.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2037	Posted - 2014.12.07 05:03:31 - [16] - Quote Sgt Soulless wrote: The other problem is that what makes a good ship for most PvE content is not a good ship for PvP. A lot of that is the result of the fact that most NPCs don't behave like player ships at all. Especially when it comes to electronic warfare. Rats have extremely high sensor strengths, virtually unlimited targeting range (so remote targeting range reduction is completely useless on them), and I've heard that in the rare instances in which a rat would try to warp away, having it warp disrupted wouldn't stop it. Neutralizers have no negative effect on NPCs and while nosferatus seem able to draw capacitor from them, they work for about one cycle before draining the rat completely (with no adverse effects upon it). I'd figure tracking disruption likely works on them but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't. Remote scan resolution dampening works but it is actually a lot easier to mitigate them targeting you by simply ignoring their group entirely until you are ready for it. It seems the only EWAR that actually works properly on rats is webs and painters. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Bullet Therapist Caldari Provisions Caldari State 210	Posted - 2014.12.07 05:18:22 - [17] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: Arthur Aihaken wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: Can you give some examples in the game of people voluntarily doing high risk PvE activities for lesser reward? The staggering risk aversion and min/maxxing of PvE players would suggest that these things would remain as desolate as nullsec incursions. Are there even high-risk PvE activities in high-sec? Sure...nullsec incursions. The risk comes from the PvP element. The only legitimately risky PvE activity would be L5 missions or escalations in highsec where you couldn't use capitals. That would be...scary....and no one would do them. People would figure out a way to do them. People do l5s, high end DED sites, and c4 content solo. Hell, people mine in null sec. I mine in nullsec occasionally for some reason, if you want to talk about high risk low reward.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2037	Posted - 2014.12.07 05:23:07 - [18] - Quote Level 5 missions may be difficult to solo but even level 4 missions are designed to be completed by a group. It works wonders, too. I've found that I can run level 4 missions easily with a friend, one of us in a battlecruiser and one in a destroyer. We shoot the targets our size and we get shot by the targets our size (neat new mechanic) and thus neither ship gets all the damage on them at once. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Quintessen Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos 459	Posted - 2014.12.07 05:45:41 - [19] - Quote I agree that less-predictable scripting would be nice. As for why do them in high sec for less reward? That's where a lot of friends are. Also I keep a home there. I have a personal home and a roaming home based on where people are spending time. So if a corp of people I know stop playing as much, then I can retreat to a place where there might be regular events or events I can do solo. The problem isn't a difficulty one, it's a personnel one. High sec can have lesser rewards but it shouldn't be boring or at least not all of high sec should be boring content -- group or otherwise.
Bullet Therapist Caldari Provisions Caldari State 210	Posted - 2014.12.07 07:36:48 - [20] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Level 5 missions may be difficult to solo but even level 4 missions are designed to be completed by a group. It works wonders, too. I've found that I can run level 4 missions easily with a friend, one of us in a battlecruiser and one in a destroyer. We shoot the targets our size and we get shot by the targets our size (neat new mechanic) and thus neither ship gets all the damage on them at once. It depends on what missions you're doing. Some l5s can be accomplished on various passive tank projectile or missile shield based ships, others require a carrier alt. All of them can be made substantially easier with boosts. Most of the people that do them cherry pick the easiest missions, there are a few that require you to kill and loot a specific NPC or bash a structure. The LP payout is so high that it's still worthwhile to do them, even if you have to turn down quite a few.
King Fu Hostile Imperial Collective Unsettled. 303	Posted - 2014.12.07 08:39:50 - [21] - Quote Quintessen wrote: I agree that less-predictable scripting would be nice. As for why do them in high sec for less reward? That's where a lot of friends are. Also I keep a home there. I have a personal home and a roaming home based on where people are spending time. So if a corp of people I know stop playing as much, then I can retreat to a place where there might be regular events or events I can do solo. The problem isn't a difficulty one, it's a personnel one. High sec can have lesser rewards but it shouldn't be boring or at least not all of high sec should be boring content -- group or otherwise. It's not the PVE that makes non-hisec interesting. Highsec is and will be boring because it lacks meaningful interactions with other players, which is the core of an MMO game.
Steppa Musana Republic University Minmatar Republic 25	Posted - 2014.12.07 08:52:37 - [22] - Quote harder content is never really harder content. eventually the "right way" to do it is exposed and it's just as easy as anything else. thats why PVE is all about min-max. if youre doing pve in a storyline game its different because youre playing that content for the first time. user created missions would be the only way around this in eve
Veers Belvar Swordmasters of New Eden 352	Posted - 2014.12.07 16:08:09 - [23] - Quote King Fu Hostile wrote: Quintessen wrote: I agree that less-predictable scripting would be nice. As for why do them in high sec for less reward? That's where a lot of friends are. Also I keep a home there. I have a personal home and a roaming home based on where people are spending time. So if a corp of people I know stop playing as much, then I can retreat to a place where there might be regular events or events I can do solo. The problem isn't a difficulty one, it's a personnel one. High sec can have lesser rewards but it shouldn't be boring or at least not all of high sec should be boring content -- group or otherwise. It's not the PVE that makes non-hisec interesting. Highsec is and will be boring because it lacks meaningful interactions with other players, which is the core of an MMO game. This is totally false. Incursions, for one, provide lots of meaningful interaction. So do manufacturing and trading plays, defending against gankers, wars (even mutual ones!), etc.... Highsec is not "boring," and the proof is really in the pudding, as per CCP like 70+% of the playerbase eschews low/null and spend its days in highsec.
Dave stark 7211	Posted - 2014.12.07 17:00:24 - [24] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: You realise ppl do level 5's in subcaps in low already right? incursions kind of already are the more difficult content in hi-sec. edit- oh and there are burner missions as well now. Hopefully being expanded in the future. yeah but burner missions are both boring and ****.
Quintessen Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos 460	Posted - 2014.12.07 19:04:31 - [25] - Quote When I see CCP announce higher end content for Exploration, or whatever it's usually for low sec, high sec and occasionally WH space. I don't play for just rewards. I play for interesting content. And with all due respect to the PvP in this game, so often it's been waiting two hours to get players together for 10 minutes of combat or fighting insane TIDI. I've done lo-sec roams and, so far, the content-to-wait ratio is pretty high. I've read literally hundreds of instances of people lamenting about how hard it is to find good fights here. So looking for some interesting PvE content to hold me over while I wait for that would be nice.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 135	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:06:24 - [26] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Veers Belvar wrote: Can you give some examples in the game of people voluntarily doing high risk PvE activities for lesser reward? The staggering risk aversion and min/maxxing of PvE players would suggest that these things would remain as desolate as nullsec incursions. Are there even high-risk PvE activities in high-sec? Problem here is not risk or reward. It is this self-righteous attitude. Yes, there are high-risk ~~PvE~~ security mission and some marketing activities in high-sec. A single mistake can trigger a chain of problems and they can escalate and cause you loose a billions-worth ship to a filthy npc. A single mis-click can cause you to loose your t2 frig in burner mission. These are the ones for your caliber I think. A single digit-missing and you're selling Vargur for 80m. isk instead of 800m. Since I learned it by discussing in these forums, I can assure you that what you imply as "activities" are all pvp activities. It doesn't necessarily have to be high-sec, but if you undock with a ship, especially worth more than 1b in fittings, that is your high-risk activity already. _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1754	Posted - 2014.12.07 20:10:58 - [27] - Quote Steppa Musana wrote: harder content is never really harder content. eventually the "right way" to do it is exposed and it's just as easy as anything else. thats why PVE is all about min-max. if youre doing pve in a storyline game its different because youre playing that content for the first time. user created missions would be the only way around this in eve Actually dynamic missions and dynamic Npcs creation would be the way to do it. Along with removing the terrible trigger system that makes reading guides basically compulsory.
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3172	Posted - 2014.12.07 21:03:37 - [28] - Quote Veers Belvar wrote: Quintessen wrote: Currently high sec is limited to low-end content. What I'm looking for is more difficult content that is harder to accomplish, and I'm willing to take lower rewards to compensate for the lower risk of doing that content in high sec. Right now the content in high sec is not only easy, but boring. I understand CCP's strategy of trying to entice people away from high sec and into low and null, but some people just aren't interested and crappy content feels like it is just driving players away. Why would people do more risky things for lesser rewards? I mean you could put L5s back at L4 reward levels, but why would anyone do them? If the content gets much harder you would also need to let people use capital ships in highsec. If L5s were put into highsec with L4 rewards, you bet I'd do them. Alone with no logi/booster alt. With my double-ASB'd Vargur. Just for the challenge of it.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 71	Posted - 2014.12.07 21:40:30 - [29] - Quote Because of the complexities of coding an AI I suspect that most PvE things in EVE will remain relatively unchanged for quite a while to come. Level 2 missions are hard for new players with low skills, cheap fits and no experience. Even the new burner missions are easy to complete once you figure them out, or look them up online. My son and a friend of is routinely solo 9/10 complexes and together they rountinly run 10/10 all in tech 3's. To those looking for a challenge I suggest that you try level 4 missions in an assault frigate, but be prepared for a long task while they are possible it can take a huge time investment to chew through the BS.
Skydell Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums 650	Posted - 2014.12.07 22:10:41 - [30] - Quote Steppa Musana wrote: harder content is never really harder content. eventually the "right way" to do it is exposed and it's just as easy as anything else. thats why PVE is all about min-max. if youre doing pve in a storyline game its different because youre playing that content for the first time. user created missions would be the only way around this in eve This. There is no hard in a video game. Not just EVE, every video game, ever. Can/ Can't Don't/ Do Yes/ No CCP has one option just like every developer for every game has one option. Make it take longer.
Arthur Aihaken X A X 4018	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:20:57 - [31] - Quote Shivanthar wrote: Since I learned it by discussing in these forums, I can assure you that what you imply as "activities" are all pvp activities. Pretty sure I was fairly specific with respect to PvE. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 812	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:28:38 - [32] - Quote This looked surprisiingly like a well disguised nerf hisec income thread :D
Quintessen Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos 460	Posted - 2014.12.08 01:40:07 - [33] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: This looked surprisiingly like a well disguised nerf hisec income thread :D It's not. It's a please give us more interesting content in high sec thread. Along with the concession that less valuable loot would be okay. I play lots of games that don't have rewards beyond the satisfaction of completing a goal. I'm not asking for push button, get cookie/bacon, but I am asking for more interesting and difficult buttons to press. Give me a puzzle. Give me a challenge even if the rewards aren't as good. Just don't make me choose between bored from lack of human interaction and being bored from a lack of interesting activities.
Shivanthar Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2014.12.08 08:51:04 - [34] - Quote Arthur Aihaken wrote: Shivanthar wrote: Since I learned it by discussing in these forums, I can assure you that what you imply as "activities" are all pvp activities. Pretty sure I was fairly specific with respect to PvE. I discussed this and I was holding exactly same side as yours once. Unless people simply reminded me the fact: "If environment includes any competition, it is pvp environment and not pve anymore". Which clearly sounds ok. The only pve activity I can find out right now is ship turning counter in the station, where it doesn't have any competition. But it is also high-risk activity. Can cause severe headaches and eye restrain O.o _Half _the lies they tell about me aren't true.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 812	Posted - 2014.12.08 10:19:48 - [35] - Quote Quintessen wrote: Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: This looked surprisiingly like a well disguised nerf hisec income thread :D It's not. It's a please give us more interesting content in high sec thread. Along with the concession that less valuable loot would be okay. I play lots of games that don't have rewards beyond the satisfaction of completing a goal. I'm not asking for push button, get cookie/bacon, but I am asking for more interesting and difficult buttons to press. Give me a puzzle. Give me a challenge even if the rewards aren't as good. Just don't make me choose between bored from lack of human interaction and being bored from a lack of interesting activities. On the basis that this is a serious proposition there should be no need to nerf the income for harder/longer activities. The longer it takes the less loot you get so in theory the loot should be better to come out at the average isk per hour for hisec activities. I've argued for better exploration before for example where data/relic sites lead into exploration escalations for instance which would be a good way to get new players into losec too as they may well be flying a cloaky explo ship for this already. Many other options exist so I would support more convoluted hisec content on this basis but the end should justify the means or people would ignore it.
Tabyll Altol Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two 57	Posted - 2014.12.08 15:26:46 - [36] - Quote No Highsec don-¦t need such things get out of it, and try something new. Don-¦t ask CCP to change the game just change your position and be open to go to Low/0.0/WH. -1
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1391	Posted - 2014.12.08 15:35:57 - [37] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Do most of those lvl 4's without a guide or having done them before and you will find them difficult as anything. Triggers will be popped wrongly (since they operate on triggers), you won't know where each wave comes from, or what weapons/range they like. Or if they come with Ewar. Seriously, try missions without a guide and without having memorised them. They are plenty hard enough. The problem comes from the scripted nature making it easy to perfectly negate that difficulty. Setting all trigger to random ships in each wave would make some mission much harder even with a guide.
Quintessen Messengers of Judah Socius Inter Nos 461	Posted - 2014.12.08 15:42:08 - [38] - Quote Tabyll Altol wrote: No Highsec don-¦t need such things get out of it, and try something new. Don-¦t ask CCP to change the game just change your position and be open to go to Low/0.0/WH. -1 You cannot erect social change by blaming a single individual for their behavior. Systems are in place that make high sec a viable and desirable place to live and lots of people don't wish to live in low or null. The people who enjoy each other's company, but not the organizational effort of null sec often stay in high sec. And if you want to play with those people you have to keep at least some presence in high sec to do it. Saying people shouldn't use the thing that CCP has already provided them is pointless given the social structures in place.

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