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GM Moderation - Why can't we discuss it?

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Lucio Gallente Incorporated Holdings	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:06:00 - [1] Ok, so I'm not discussing GM moderation here but instead I'm asking why people think we're banned from talking about it? Does it make the GM's jobs harder if their every decision could be scrutunised? Is there an imbalance in the way GM's handle people that CCP doesn't want us to find out about? Has there been past incidents that have forced them to start this policy to prevent similar things happening again? I'm sure there's good reasoning for it, but really, what is it? (Please do not use this thread for complaining about the GM's/Mods, this is a thread for thinking, not ranting) ************************************************ Yes, I know I have a negative sec. status but I'm not a pirate damnit!
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:07:00 - [2] GM's from time to time give you diffrent answers, if people could compare answers in public this would obviously lead to problems. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:11:00 - [3] GM's every action being judged by the players is a bad idea. For example, player X gets his ship back but player Y does not. Then you have a thread comparing the actions and the evidence, and the GM's have to argue in defence using the forums. Can you imagine the soap opera being the result? So.. no thanks. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kaell Meynn	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:19:00 - [4] Yeah, lets keep these forums civil, polite, and free of any tinfoil hattery. Wait.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:19:00 - [5] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/09/2006 07:20:34 Are we even allowed to discuss why we're not allowed to discuss it? GMs are like football refs - their decision is theirs alone, it's a tough job that mostly gets done well, and they deeserve a bit of respect for doing it. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Crunch Hardiron Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:23:00 - [6] Discussing moderation violates the privacy policy between you and CCP. OMG! I contributed something! At 3 in the morning! ---- "Everyone who doesn't believe the sky is falling is an ass-kissing fanboi! EVE is going to fail, mark my words!" -Customers
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:31:00 - [7] Originally by: Rules Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue. You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned. Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum. Such matters shall remain private between the CCP and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread, please contact [email protected]. Whenever I read those rules, all I think it that they only exist to cover-up the corrupt GMs that break the rules/eula... Some things I have seen posted were: GM giving their other account uber items. GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner. But what is worst than corrupt GMs are the really rude forum mods you say to "put on a t2 tinfoil hat" when someone posts about them...
Mrmuttley House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:40:00 - [8] Originally by: Eilie Some things I have seen posted were: GM giving their other account uber items. GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner. A large percentage of forum posts are a complete load. If you belive everything you're told on the forums your a fool Samuel L Jackson is the famous one that alot of people believed for a long time. People like to create roumors and stories around things that will never ever be possible to verify. It either starts as chinese whispers or its a blatent attempt to start a roumor for either personal amusement or for gain in some other way. If you had any proof of GM's being corrupt i trust you would take the matter up with CCP. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated. Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve is not supposed to be fair
Ephemeron	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:40:00 - [9] It's much harder to control people if they have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people in power to exercise censorship, because it's so easy to get away with.
Niccolado Starwalker Syncore Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:43:00 - [10] I find it pretty obvious why its not allowed to discuss it for many reasons. Lets say a player does something, and get a temp ban for it. The banned person looses his mind, and hits on the forums, spreading hatred and demanding info why he got banned. Telling the GM is being unfair blah blah blah. The GM then goes online and telling to everyone that he was banned for lets say, buying isk? using exploits? i dunno. any reason really. Now, the bannzored person reclaims his vits a few hours, but by then the reason is spread to everyone in the game, who now knows that that bastard tried to use bookmark exploits against someone in the last PvP battle. Or, he is an exploiter. we dont want to have anything with exploiters to do etc. The CCP uphelds your privacy. And by not allowing you to spread the communicatsion, you are not in risk by destroying for yourself, for others, and for CCP. Communication has to be private. Its your right. And its CCPs right.
Spanker	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:48:00 - [11] Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot. - Shpank
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:50:00 - [12] Edited by: Caleb Paine on 07/09/2006 07:55:22 Because people are growing tired of the endless "why ask why" things that would just clog up the forums. Also, they serve people a nice cup of STFU after they have been idiots, because why discuss things with an obvious idiot. It's the reason I could never do their work, they always have to be friendly and keep their tone neutral, I want to be able to TELL people they are total idiots when that's the case and then just ignore them. I had thought about signing up for volunteering but never went through with it when I realised that fact... You have to be superman to control yourself when dealing with all the idiots, all the dumb petetitons, zillions... every day. Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Mrmuttley Originally by: Eilie Some things I have seen posted were: GM giving their other account uber items. GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner. A large percentage of forum posts are a complete load. If you belive everything you're told on the forums your a fool Samuel L Jackson is the famous one that alot of people believed for a long time. People like to create roumors and stories around things that will never ever be possible to verify. It either starts as chinese whispers or its a blatent attempt to start a roumor for either personal amusement or for gain in some other way. If you had any proof of GM's being corrupt i trust you would take the matter up with CCP. The first one is popular knowledge. It happened about a month ago and the GM was fired, but CCP almost didn't find out about it because of their stupid forum rules... So I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened other times too... The second one happened to a friend of mine. He quit for a while and when he came back, someone else had stolen his account. The GMs gave the account back empty and left the character with the theif. We sent in lots of petitions but CCP didn't care and even banned my other friend who tried posting about it on the forums... (Watch this post be deleted within 5 min )
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Spanker Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot. Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's. Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Shaikar Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:54:00 - [15] Three reasons imo. First you already mention - having a thousand armchair wannabe-GM's scrutinising everything that is done and screaming about how it is all wrong would make the GM's job well nigh impossible to do. Second is that a discussion needs evidence to be remotely sensible. Fine, but as soon as enough evidence starts getting posted about how the GM's work for such a discussion to take place you have more than enough evidence about how the GM's work for the dodgy people to find out how to exploit the system. Third is because CCP says so, and it is their ball after all. It is a very hard job to get right, a precarious balancing act and one which is impossible to do in such a way to please all the people all the time, especially given forums are involved - a job which they have done well imo, given my limited GM contact so far. For some reason forums make people (in general) feel like they have an equal and vastly important right to be heard and obeyed. They don't. Now, hear me and obey!
Eron Lygera Gallente Sharded Awareness	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim McGregor ... Can you imagine the soap opera being the result? So.. no thanks. :) Roger that! GM's are humans, and as such not in complete sync with eachother. Differences occur. Not for 100k+ people to discuss. Ps. Dont nerf WCS!
Rabbitgod Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.07 07:56:00 - [17] click-a-roo ---{24th member of the 23}---
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:00:00 - [18] Why should moderation be discussed? Either you have proof that a GM did something wrong, or it's only your opinion. In the first case, you should contact CCP and posting on the forums won't help you. In the second, CCP has no reason to act against the GM, so it won't, regardless of how much you whine. Basically, discussing moderation on the forums is only a way to gather pressure against GMs without having proof that they misbehaved. Very handy for people that break the rules: you're wrong, you know you're wrong, the GM knows you're wrong, but let's ***** about it anyway. Nothing good can come out of it.
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Spanker Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot. Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's. Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this. LOL, that's very true about Bush. I do understand the forum rules for stopping 1000s of whines about how the GMs didn't give back their stuff from a reimbursment petition, but for more major issues like asking a GM if something is an exploit or not you should be able to post their response on the forums so everyone knows...
Mrmuttley House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:03:00 - [20] Edited by: Mrmuttley on 07/09/2006 08:04:31 Originally by: Eilie The second one happened to a friend of mine. He quit for a while and when he came back, someone else had stolen his account. The GMs gave the account back empty and left the character with the theif. We sent in lots of petitions but CCP didn't care and even banned my other friend who tried posting about it on the forums... (Watch this post be deleted within 5 min ) If your freinds account did have that sort of problem then surely you dont think that a public forum was the best way to go about getting a resolution. As for the first one if I had definate proof that GM A credited pilot B with a Caldari Navy Raven BPO or something like that then I would not take it to the forum I would contact CCP directly. If your right then CCP do deal with corrupt GMs harshly. Why any forum involvement is needed is beyond me. FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated. Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve is not supposed to be fair
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Jim McGregor Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's. Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this. Ah, the democracy argument. This is a private board. The principle of freedom of speech does not apply to private places. Neither online, nor in real life.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Za Po Originally by: Jim McGregor Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's. Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this. Ah, the democracy argument. This is a private board. The principle of freedom of speech does not apply to private places. Neither online, nor in real life. I think you misunderstood me. The rules on these forums are perfectly fine and makes sense. They make the forums a better place. The analogy to Bush was to make the point that ruling by fear and threats ALONE must never be accepted. That is NOT the case with these forums. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:15:00 - [23] Originally by: Jim McGregor I think you misunderstood me. Ah... yeah, probably. My apologies.
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Spanker Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot. Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's. Finding it hard to agree here. On the GM issue it is common knowledge that different GMs treat similiar or identical cases differently- just look at the SVE scam where the victims got reimbursed. But at least we're allowed to debate the rules that GMs have to adhere to. We can claim it is unfair that people do not get reimbursed when they get blown up in a gatecamp and argue that this should be petitionable. It would of course never happen, but at least you'd be allowed to post such a thread and discuss it on the forum. Now as to forum moderation, that's a different case altogether. If you don't like the way a mod acts in a specific case, you can't complain using forum posting. That's okay I guess, the mods are volunteers (unlike GMS) so they deserrve not to be flamed on a daily basis. The really distasteful thing is, however, that you can't debate the forum rules themselves. You can't even debate why you're not allowed to debate the forum rules. Those threads get locked and deleted, gone from public knowledge. I kinda expect the same to happen with this thread since the OP mentioned moderators as well as GMs. And it is this hampering of open debate that is ****ing me off. This has nothing to do with civility, this is tbh only about not being open to suggestions and preferring not to listen to the wishes of the community. The forums exist so that the EVE-O community can have a place to discuss life in the EVE Universe and everything. They do not exist so mods can go on power trips. -----
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:23:00 - [25] I am glad other people see htings in the same way.. Please take a look at the following link And pelase give comments Linky
Kalki Nibiru Gallente ISS Navy Task Force	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Lucio Ok, so I'm not discussing GM moderation here but instead I'm asking why people think we're banned from talking about it? Does it make the GM's jobs harder if their every decision could be scrutunised? Is there an imbalance in the way GM's handle people that CCP doesn't want us to find out about? Has there been past incidents that have forced them to start this policy to prevent similar things happening again? I'm sure there's good reasoning for it, but really, what is it? (Please do not use this thread for complaining about the GM's/Mods, this is a thread for thinking, not ranting) Its the same reason why Pro Sport referee's aren't put under a microscope and forced to answer questions after a game. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Eilie Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Mrmuttley FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee. It wasn't a rumor (although the rude mods accused people of spreading rumors at first) and some devs did eventually post and confirm it. You can still read the thread here. I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know) (I'm surprised this thread isn't even locked yet...)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:33:00 - [28] Originally by: Eilie I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know) I dont think the devs would appriciate being disturbed by players complaining about their treatment in the forums... :p --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Boonaki Caldari Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:37:00 - [29] Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
Spanker	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:40:00 - [30] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Spanker Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot. Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's. Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this. I was only joking, gawd. CCP obviously have the right to moderate all they want without people spreading their infectious accusations of unfair treatment, and not only just because it says so in some long and incomprehencible EULA that nobody reads anyway. It's a business and I'd do the same. I mean what do you expect if you don't follow the rules. - Shpank
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.07 08:49:00 - [31] Originally by: Eilie The first one is popular knowledge. It happened about a month ago and the GM was fired, but CCP almost didn't find out about it because of their stupid forum rules... So I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened other times too... And in the public discussion that was allowed about that case, the GMs and Devs made it clear that that he would have been caught anyway during the regular audits of GM account activity. The forum post just sped up the process a bit, at the cost of generating a lot of angst and ranting because of the incomplete or incorrect imformation coming from players, exaserbated because so many forum readers are too impatient to even wait 12 hours until normal working hours so someone of sufficient seniority could resolve the situation. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.07 09:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Boonaki Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing.
Terraform Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.07 09:59:00 - [33] Edited by: Terraform on 07/09/2006 09:59:10 Originally by: Rodj Blake GMs are like football refs - their decision is theirs alone, it's a tough job that mostly gets done well, and they deeserve a bit of respect for doing it.[/quote Is that so? Indeed! My new sig, like it?
Baldour Ngarr Artemis Rising	Posted - 2006.09.07 10:00:00 - [34] Originally by: fuze Originally by: Boonaki Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. Then go pay for a forum that has it. ________________________________________________ "I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked."
Benco97 Gallente Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.07 10:06:00 - [35] I think they do fine, yes, i've been on their bad side too over the years. If we all knew everything thery did it would be utter chaos. "But blahblah got HIS ship back, why can't I have mine?!" It's a good thing that we don't know it all about their actions. Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (F.A.G) and Registered Fedo breeder
Zikke Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.07 10:26:00 - [36] I DMed (Basically a GM) on a popular Neverwinter Nights server a while back and let me tell you: It's tough work. Every single player is watching your actions. If the entire server knows about it, conflicts may arise. One GM may tell someone different than another. Chaos ensues and the entire world explodes. Then rabid chipmunks from the kingdom far far down below us begin gnawing at our toenails. Er anyways, I think the reason why it's not allowed to be talked about is because it would cause too many problems. No one's perfect but some people expect GMs to be. Just my .02 isk. -------- Get over it. (TM)
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.07 10:34:00 - [37] GM's are regular people like us and having their very actions constantly scutinised and judged by people who don't have all (or any) facts at hand would make their job miserable. It's already a fairly thankless task, no point in making it harder. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Mrmuttley House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.09.07 10:47:00 - [38] Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Mrmuttley FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee. It wasn't a rumor (although the rude mods accused people of spreading rumors at first) and some devs did eventually post and confirm it. You can still read the thread here. I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know) (I'm surprised this thread isn't even locked yet...) Okay I read that thread ( took me a while as I read it in between calls at work ) Bearing in mind I only have the details from that thread I surmise that - Noobie GM screwed up and got dealt with quite correctly by CCP Games - Public ruckus on the forums only speeded up detection of the problem. Problem would have been detected anyways - Could have been dealt with a little more effectively but end result was good. - All I see in the thread are mods suggesting people settle down and let the GMs Investigate. If I suspected a problem then I personally would probablyhave emailed [email protected]. Him being the community manager I would assume he would be ideally placed to pass on to the correct parties for investigation. Again I ask you why do uninvolved parties need to be allowed to discuss the details on the forum. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated. Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve is not supposed to be fair
Valkazm Amarr Cursed Spawn Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:13:00 - [39] All your answers are here OP Cursed Spawn recruitment
pilgrim8	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:26:00 - [40] hmm, just get a forum/message based program and make your private game/forum message thingie make it with no title of whats it about no references to any name/title that will discern who/what's it about(i.e. not mentioning the games name) i gotta try and dig up the one i used in my last game for our forums
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Ephemeron It's much harder to control people if they have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people in power to exercise censorship, because it's so easy to get away with. This is your answer. Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Zaphod Jones Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:28:00 - [42] In the two and a half years I've played I have never had a problem with GM's, Dev's or any CCP personnel, they have always acted in a professional manner and listened to reasoned arguments and usually acted upon them as such. The only problem as I see it at present is the over zealous moderation by ISD's new forum police. These guys should, in my book should be first against the wall when the revolution comes. My personal opinion is that they have probably recruited some newer members of the EVE community to act as forum police and these members have not actively participated in the forums in which they are moderating enough to justify their presence. This post will probably get deleted, as such I will copy it to http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com (where all free speaking forum warriors end up) as well so that a permanent record is kept.
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 12:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Mrmuttley Originally by: Eilie Originally by: Mrmuttley FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee. It wasn't a rumor (although the rude mods accused people of spreading rumors at first) and some devs did eventually post and confirm it. You can still read the thread here. I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know) (I'm surprised this thread isn't even locked yet...) Okay I read that thread ( took me a while as I read it in between calls at work ) Bearing in mind I only have the details from that thread I surmise that - Noobie GM screwed up and got dealt with quite correctly by CCP Games - Public ruckus on the forums only speeded up detection of the problem. Problem would have been detected anyways - Could have been dealt with a little more effectively but end result was good. - All I see in the thread are mods suggesting people settle down and let the GMs Investigate. If I suspected a problem then I personally would probablyhave emailed [email protected]. Him being the community manager I would assume he would be ideally placed to pass on to the correct parties for investigation. Again I ask you why do uninvolved parties need to be allowed to discuss the details on the forum. Actually, you're very wrong...if people hadn't posted about it on the forum and made sure it was solved quickly, the officer mods that GM put on his ship would have been sold and traded left and right, possibly several times each, so that the problem would've been a real nightmare to solve without making a bunch of people very ****** off because the estamel item they just bought for 400 mill suddenly disappeared. -----
Mrmuttley House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.09.07 13:09:00 - [44] You say I'm wrong yet you haven't contradicted anything I said. Yes if the items had been traded some pilots would have got upset without doubt. The items being traded before the GMs took action is by no means certain as very high value items tend to take a bit longer to trade (think days to auction/transport) as the seller wants to get the best possible price for an ultra rare mod. Compare that to the forum discussion and a lot of uninvolved people getting upset with CCP apparently "Just on general principles" The OP was about not being allowed to discuss specifics of GM / Mod activity. I have yet to see a remotely convincing arguement in favour. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated. Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve is not supposed to be fair
Duranis Satosith Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.07 13:16:00 - [45] Because discussing GM/Forum mod decisions on this forum would be a stupid idea. For one we would not have and would never have the full facts. People whining that their account has been banned will always put a spin on it to make themselves look better and CCP employees would not be allowed to disclose private information about peoples accouts on a public forum. Therefore any discussion would be completely pointless. By using the forums and playing eve you basically agree to anything CCP say. In this case it makes perfect sense but even if it didnt you can either live with it or not.
Duranis Satosith Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.07 13:18:00 - [46] Originally by: fuze Originally by: Boonaki Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing. Most people demand freedom of speech to make up for freedom of thought which they seem to lack. (cant remeber who orginally said this but it is so true)
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.07 13:28:00 - [47] Originally by: Ephemeron It's much harder to control people if they have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people in power to exercise censorship, because it's so easy to get away with. Rephrasing for the other side of the argument: It's much easier to control people if you have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people without power to exercise falsehood, because it's so easy to get away with. If people can talk about something, some of them will inevitably lie about it. This is even more likely when they know that CCP staff can't post back and disprove your lies due to confidentiality. And even if they did, there's some people here who would inevitably believe any evidence posted was a cover-up. What I find interesting is the inequality on burdens of proof people on these forums apply. They'll believe pretty much anything another player says, however outgrageous or unlikely, but even the most well-structured and detailed responses from the Devs will bring accusations of lies and cover-ups. They automatically trust the "annonymous source", the "friend of a friend", the unknown, faceless player, who has nothing to lose and everything to gain by making things up. Yet they automatically distrust the CCP employee who's every action is overseen and audited, and who's job, their ability to pay their rent and put food on their table, depends on them behaving properly. Of course, we should not discount the possibility that the annonymous player is telling the truth, nor that the CCP employee is lying. But those should not be the starting assumption. There's also a significant inequality in the burden of behaviour that people seem to apply. It seems to be the expectation that the players can behave however badly they like, yet the GMs are expected to be perfect at all times. People want to come here and moan about the GM's as much as they like. How would you feel if the opposite happened? If GM's started posting whining threads "Look what player X called my mother!" etc, some of which even complained about things players hadn't actually done. I'm sure the clamour for moderating those posts would be deafening. If you want the GM's to treat you in a professional manner, it's not too much to ask that you behave the same way towards them. You would expect a GM doing otherwise to be censured for their actions, so you should expect to be too. Originally by: James Snowscoran Actually, you're very wrong...if people hadn't posted about it on the forum and made sure it was solved quickly, the officer mods that GM put on his ship would have been sold and traded left and right, possibly several times each, so that the problem would've been a real nightmare to solve without making a bunch of people very ****** off because the estamel item they just bought for 400 mill suddenly disappeared. Even if that had happened, it's still a lot less people affected than the whole forum pubic outrage route. Besides, you're focussing on pretty much the only about-a-GM thread that actually had a positive effect, however minimal. Frankly, that one incident is not worth allowing the forums to be constantly spammed up with the usual pointless GM whine threads. Cause that's what would happen if the rule was lifted. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: James Snowscoran Actually, you're very wrong...if people hadn't posted about it on the forum and made sure it was solved quickly, the officer mods that GM put on his ship would have been sold and traded left and right, possibly several times each, so that the problem would've been a real nightmare to solve without making a bunch of people very ****** off because the estamel item they just bought for 400 mill suddenly disappeared. Even if that had happened, it's still a lot less people affected than the whole forum pubic outrage route. Besides, you're focussing on pretty much the only about-a-GM thread that actually had a positive effect, however minimal. Frankly, that one incident is not worth allowing the forums to be constantly spammed up with the usual pointless GM whine threads. Cause that's what would happen if the rule was lifted. Actually, that's not true, I didn't bring up the example myself, and if you had bothered to read my earlier posts you'd know I'm against discussing individual cases of moderation, I was just reposnding because some guy was saying it would've been better to have that issue solved in private, which I don't hold too much faith in tbh. And your arguing carries other wierd implications too. The GM abusing his priviledges thing was originally someone ganking a rattlesnake (I think?) and going zomg wtf when they found a full stash of officer loot in its hold. Are you seriously suggesting that when something extraordinary happens in EVE, people should shutup because they might be infringing on the comforts of some GM? -----
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:56:00 - [49] Imagine we could discuss GM decisions here. GM1 gives player1 his ship back which he lost to lag. GM2 gives player2 not back which he lost to lag. Can you imagine the consequences if player2 starts a forum war cuz player1 got his ships back? Its a case by case decision. They do a great job and the last what CCP/GMs would want to see is endless whining about petitions not worked out propers aka not as players want. GMs, you are doing a great job [insert noises of ass kissing here] Ship lovers click here
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:46:00 - [50] Originally by: Eilie Edited by: Eilie on 07/09/2006 07:53:48 Originally by: Rules Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue. You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned. Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum. Such matters shall remain private between the CCP and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread, please contact [email protected]. Whenever I read those rules, all I think it that they only exist to cover-up the corrupt GMs that break the rules/eula... Some things I have seen posted were: GM giving their other account uber items. GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner. But what is worst than corrupt GMs are the really rude forum mods who say to "put on a t2 tinfoil hat" when someone posts about them... I'd ask you for proof, but the only proof you'd give would be the thread that discussed the cheat ship which got a new GM fired. What is worse than 'corrupt' GMs are the morons that think privacy is always some sort of coverup. Now clearly, we can see from your condemnation of GMs, that you can do their job much better, and CCP should jump to hire you. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:37:00 - [51] Edited by: Kldraina on 07/09/2006 23:41:49 Edited by: Kldraina on 07/09/2006 23:39:25 Basically, giving people the ability to speak freely on the forums, is giving them power. Power corrupts, and in a game where lies and backstabbing are the norm, giving them more power is very dangerous. Giving players the ability to speak freely without giving GMs the same ability, would be downright suicidal. Do you really want every single petition you make to appear on the forums?
The1 Amarr ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:46:00 - [52] Edited by: The1 on 07/09/2006 23:48:25 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Spanker Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot. Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's. Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this. Really, so I guess taking out the guy who ruled by threats, fear, mass murder, repression, ect...was not a good idea? Wake up man, we are at war for the very soul of humanity. Its either islamic fasicism or freedom. I, for one, am glad we have a president who knows this. What has the rest of the world done to stop the rise of radical Islam?? Oh yes, nothing. The same countries who sat around and looked the other way while H1tl3r came to power are doing it all over again. I am sure gald at least one world leader has his head out of his a$$!
Turin Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:09:00 - [53] It is quite simple. They dont want the users to compare notes. If we were able to do that, then people would see what a messed up job that is done. Case in point. Me and a frind of mine were killed a while back due to an exploit. We both petitioned. We both got DIFFERANT GM's. The situation was identicle, as we were together. I got my ship replaced, he didnt. So why the differant conclusions No one knows. The sad part is that The GM that helped my friend then convod me and threatened to ban me for discussing my ship replacement with the person I was ganged with. ________________________________________________________
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:35:00 - [54] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 08/09/2006 00:37:23 Originally by: Eilie knowledge. It happened about a month ago and the GM was fired, but CCP almost didn't find out about it because of their stupid forum rules... So I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened other times too... It's hard to tell if you're ignorant or just ignored osts in that thread. All GM actions are logged, and the logs get reviewed. The players posting about it made them look at it sooner, it still would've been discovered. edit: and iirc, you said with your friend that they had been gone a year or so? Why should your friend be given his old character + a year (or however long) of skills? That situation was lose-lose, and if the account was truly 'hacked', I have a hard time believing CCP just let the person keep something they stole. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:36:00 - [55] Because policy won't change, except to become harsher. There was a long thread. We were told at the end what CCP would do if they did make changes. After almost everyone asking for something else. There's no point. Move on. //Maya
Mrmuttley House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:36:00 - [56] Damn! So far people are keeping this pretty reasonable. Thank you to the mods for accepting this and not just locking it for just mentioning the words GM /Petition Response / Moderation etc etc. One thing I personally would love to see is the GMs posting the "Top Ten Dumbest Petitions" every month or so. Anyone who has ever worked with customer will know that there will be some really special ones. That alone 9technically0 is reason not to allow GMs to discuss petitions. If they can't discuss them then neither should we the players. One thing to remember is that you should always keep things in perspective. First of all if you can do a better job apply for the job. Secondly its a game. If the level of GM support is not acceptable stop playing and stop paying. Thats not meant as a "Go back to WoW" comment it is just reminding you that you do have a choice. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated. Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve is not supposed to be fair

Saucerhead Forum Moderator	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:45:00 - [57] Originally by: Za Po Why should moderation be discussed? Either you have proof that a GM did something wrong, or it's only your opinion. In the first case, you should contact CCP and posting on the forums won't help you. In the second, CCP has no reason to act against the GM, so it won't, regardless of how much you whine. Basically, discussing moderation on the forums is only a way to gather pressure against GMs without having proof that they misbehaved. Very handy for people that break the rules: you're wrong, you know you're wrong, the GM knows you're wrong, but let's ***** about it anyway. Nothing good can come out of it. I think this sums up the matter pretty well. -- Read the Rules!

James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:54:00 - [58] Originally by: Saucerhead Originally by: Za Po Why should moderation be discussed? Either you have proof that a GM did something wrong, or it's only your opinion. In the first case, you should contact CCP and posting on the forums won't help you. In the second, CCP has no reason to act against the GM, so it won't, regardless of how much you whine. Basically, discussing moderation on the forums is only a way to gather pressure against GMs without having proof that they misbehaved. Very handy for people that break the rules: you're wrong, you know you're wrong, the GM knows you're wrong, but let's ***** about it anyway. Nothing good can come out of it. I think this sums up the matter pretty well. Fair enough. So what about forum moderation? Why can't we discuss the rules of that? -----

Saucerhead Forum Moderator	Posted - 2006.09.08 09:11:00 - [59] Originally by: James Snowscoran Fair enough. So what about forum moderation? Why can't we discuss the rules of that? You can. What you cannot do is discuss specific instances of moderation - because: 1. We consider them involving only player being moderated and moderator team, not any third parties. 2. We communicate about it using email privately, not on forums. Note that threads about general rules of moderation have a sad tendency do degenerate into bringing up specific examples of moderation and flames against the moderator team, which often leaves us no choice but to lock them. -- Read the Rules!

Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.08 09:43:00 - [60] Originally by: James Snowscoran Actually, that's not true, I didn't bring up the example myself, and if you had bothered to read my earlier posts you'd know I'm against discussing individual cases of moderation, I was just reposnding because some guy was saying it would've been better to have that issue solved in private, which I don't hold too much faith in tbh. OK, so the question then becomes, how do you know beforehand which threads are going to be ones like that, with a (debatably) positive effect, and which are going to be the usual useless spam? The balance of probability is heavily skewed towards the spam. If a couple of useful posts, which should be being reported through the proper channels anyway, get suppressed in return for preventing this forum turning from "General Discussion" into "GM Bashing", then that's a price worth paying. Originally by: James Snowscoran And your arguing carries other wierd implications too. The GM abusing his priviledges thing was originally someone ganking a rattlesnake (I think?) and going zomg wtf when they found a full stash of officer loot in its hold. Are you seriously suggesting that when something extraordinary happens in EVE, people should shutup because they might be infringing on the comforts of some GM? Not shut up, no. Just express themselves through the appropriate channels in the appropriate way. Don't trust the petitions cause you think it's a corrupt GM, then email kieron. Don't trust anyone at CCP? Then why are you giving them your money and installing their software on your computer? This is the sort of thing i was talking about with the inequality in burdens of proof. People take the player at his word, but automatically assume that CCP is dishonest and covering it up. They then take a few hours delay in responding to be "proof" of the cover-up, when in reality it may be because it was the middle of the night and the Head GM and 99% of the devs were in bed. Or that they want to be sure of the facts before posting anything. After all, if "corrupt GM" accusations turn out to be true, it's someone's job on the line, with RL legal implications. You have to be very sure about publicly commenting on such things, otherwise you end up getting sued. Even after the situation has been resolved, and a full explanation of what had happend given out, even though someone may have lost their job, people still say CCP is covering up. Others claim that it was only the public exposure that had forced action, even if no other route had been tried first. That's the whole problem with the "keeping CCP honest" argument for free forum posting. If you don't trust CCP enough to feel you need that, then you're also not going to trust them enough to believe any solution they post. Another thing some people seem to take as evidence of cover-ups, is the innocent until proven guilty line taken by CCP in relation to accusations directed at GMs. Imagine if you were that GM. Do you really want GMs that have to fear for their job every time you make a decision someone doesn't like? Do you want players to be able to use that threat to sway GM decisions? That would just make it far harder to give equal treatment to all, rather than preferential treatment to anyone who can muster a forum lynch mob. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
DOGNOSH Minmatar SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2006.09.08 09:59:00 - [61] Edited by: DOGNOSH on 08/09/2006 09:59:24 recently i had a thread locked up,about cloaks being broke,it was meant to be informative until the bug fix(warning peeps to be careful in their covert ops ship) which meant it slid down the page in to obscurity at first i was annoyed,and said nothing now i see why,all i saw was lots of different threads flaming CCP about it,so i would guess ISDs thought my thread would fan this flame too being a GM or ISD is a very tough job i salute them because if they help 19 out of 20 people and reject just one claim ,we hear about that but not the 19 who were very satisfied ========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break mmmm pink Eris will approve - Xorus
James Snowscoran Caldari Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.08 10:16:00 - [62] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: James Snowscoran Actually, that's not true, I didn't bring up the example myself, and if you had bothered to read my earlier posts you'd know I'm against discussing individual cases of moderation, I was just reposnding because some guy was saying it would've been better to have that issue solved in private, which I don't hold too much faith in tbh. OK, so the question then becomes, how do you know beforehand which threads are going to be ones like that, with a (debatably) positive effect, and which are going to be the usual useless spam? The balance of probability is heavily skewed towards the spam. If a couple of useful posts, which should be being reported through the proper channels anyway, get suppressed in return for preventing this forum turning from "General Discussion" into "GM Bashing", then that's a price worth paying. Originally by: James Snowscoran And your arguing carries other wierd implications too. The GM abusing his priviledges thing was originally someone ganking a rattlesnake (I think?) and going zomg wtf when they found a full stash of officer loot in its hold. Are you seriously suggesting that when something extraordinary happens in EVE, people should shutup because they might be infringing on the comforts of some GM? Not shut up, no. Just express themselves through the appropriate channels in the appropriate way. Don't trust the petitions cause you think it's a corrupt GM, then email kieron. Don't trust anyone at CCP? Then why are you giving them your money and installing their software on your computer? (...) That's the whole problem with the "keeping CCP honest" argument for free forum posting. If you don't trust CCP enough to feel you need that, then you're also not going to trust them enough to believe any solution they post. Another thing some people seem to take as evidence of cover-ups, is the innocent until proven guilty line taken by CCP in relation to accusations directed at GMs. Imagine if you were that GM. Do you really want GMs that have to fear for their job every time you make a decision someone doesn't like? Do you want players to be able to use that threat to sway GM decisions? That would just make it far harder to give equal treatment to all, rather than preferential treatment to anyone who can muster a forum lynch mob. The fundamental flaw in your reasoning is that petitions take about 4 weeks to get processed- which means that anyone who wants a quicker response on an issue like this will go to the forums. Emails are also fundamentally broken, and answers can't really be expected in most cases. One could argue, I guess, that if petition queues were no longer than a day, people wouldn't be so quick to go to the forums with their conspiracy theories. But then again, the deliberate lack of transparency in GM actions must inevitably lead to oconspiracy theories popping up. Just like the 'Devs are in BoB!!!' threads will only stop if the Devs reveal their mains and which alliances they belong to. Mind you, I'm not saying that we need full transparency on these issues, but if we choose not to have it then some general paranoia and conspiracy theories is the price. Cloud something in mystery and you invite speculation. -----
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.08 10:17:00 - [63] Paranoia is good, knowing is boring. Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:04:00 - [64] Originally by: James Snowscoran The fundamental flaw in your reasoning is that petitions take about 4 weeks to get processed- which means that anyone who wants a quicker response on an issue like this will go to the forums. Petitions filed under the "exploit" and "harassment" categories get considerably faster responses - generally under 10 minutes in my experience. And "situations like this" would fall under one or the other, depending on exactly what you're complaining about. Originally by: James Snowscoran Emails are also fundamentally broken, and answers can't really be expected in most cases. One could argue, I guess, that if petition queues were no longer than a day, people wouldn't be so quick to go to the forums with their conspiracy theories. Your evidence for emails being broken is what, exactly? I think you overestimate the patience of people on these forums. Looking back at history, the cries of "we're being ignored, it's a cover-up", start coming out within a couple of hours of the first post, let alone even giving it 12 hours so the responsible staff member is actually awake and in the office to know what's going on. Besides, if you use the proper prioritised petition queues, your petition will probably get seen before anyone at CCP becomes aware of the forum thread you posted at the same time. Originally by: James Snowscoran But then again, the deliberate lack of transparency in GM actions must inevitably lead to oconspiracy theories popping up. Just like the 'Devs are in BoB!!!' threads will only stop if the Devs reveal their mains and which alliances they belong to. Mind you, I'm not saying that we need full transparency on these issues, but if we choose not to have it then some general paranoia and conspiracy theories is the price. Cloud something in mystery and you invite speculation. It's not that we just choose not to have it, it's that there are very good reasons for not having it. Having all the devs reveal which alliances they are in wouldn't stop the conspiracy theories, they would just change to "Devs in <insert alliance here>" instead. Every time someone fighting that alliance CTD'ed, lagged etc, it would be "Dev hax". The team warping right on top of the enemy sniper camp would be dev hax rather than a covert ops ship. The unusually strong raven shield tank would be dev hax instead of a pirate implant set. Large fleets of expensive ships would be dev hax rather than organised industrial ops. And there would still be those speculating that the devs had announced "decoy" mains, and all their alts were really still in BoB. Or that their chars in other alliances were just BoB spies. That's the problem with conspiracy theories. Any and all evidence intended to disprove them can be dismissed by the theorists as fake and part of the conspiracy. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

wystler Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:16:00 - [65] These are the forums which are monitored by ISD. Ingame issues are handled via petitions and answered by GMs. Why SHOULD you comment on something on the forums which have nothing to do with them? They're too busy answering petitions via the official channels to be watching the forums for questions also. GMs, like ISD, will NOT comment on another person's case. They will only liase with that person directly, due to privacy and data protection concerns. There's no tinfoil hattery involved here, its just a case of simple privacy and professional courtesy which assures you that your case will be kept private eve-crc.net \| forum rules \| c.a.o.d forum rules \| [email protected] Official keeper of the smilie. Yarr!

Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:24:00 - [66] AND it's an easy way to serve them a nice cup of STFU because you lot have more important things to do than listen to some whiner asking "why" the whole time while he fully understands he did something wrong but doesn't want to confess to it. Don't tell me you don't love the "click" at times :) Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Mrmuttley House of Tempers	Posted - 2006.09.08 11:52:00 - [67] Edited by: Mrmuttley on 08/09/2006 11:54:48 Originally by: Matthew It's not that we just choose not to have it, it's that there are very good reasons for not having it. Having all the devs reveal which alliances they are in wouldn't stop the conspiracy theories, they would just change to "Devs in <insert alliance here>" instead. Every time someone fighting that alliance CTD'ed, lagged etc, it would be "Dev hax". The team warping right on top of the enemy sniper camp would be dev hax rather than a covert ops ship. The unusually strong raven shield tank would be dev hax instead of a pirate implant set. Large fleets of expensive ships would be dev hax rather than organised industrial ops. And there would still be those speculating that the devs had announced "decoy" mains, and all their alts were really still in BoB. Or that their chars in other alliances were just BoB spies. That's the problem with conspiracy theories. Any and all evidence intended to disprove them can be dismissed by the theorists as fake and part of the conspiracy. MAtthew has a very valid point here. Take any major RL event. I guarantee that in some corner of the internet there is a conspiracy theory about it. Moon landings, JFK, 9/11, Death of Princess Diana, Challenger disaster. John Lennon, the list is endless. One thing that sometimes people fail to consider is that there may NOT be a cover up afterall. People who play Eve are no different to the rest of the world. There will always be a few people who prefer to believe the paranoia and in doing so reject the reasonable and more likely. /edit: Of course if you're really paranoid then maybe both Matthew and Myself are Devs posing as regular players to make you think most people think everythings OK with the game. Or possibly we posted " OMG i see there is a coverup afterall" and our posts mysteriously changed to one supportive of the GMs/Devs. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am Dyslexic of Borg. Your ass will be laminated. Originally by: Rod Blaine Eve is not supposed to be fair

wystler Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:07:00 - [68] Originally by: Caleb Paine Don't tell me you don't love the "click" at times :) No comment eve-crc.net \| forum rules \| c.a.o.d forum rules \| [email protected] Official keeper of the smilie. Yarr!

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:13:00 - [69] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 08/09/2006 12:13:24 Originally by: Mrmuttley /edit: Of course if you're really paranoid then maybe both Matthew and Myself are Devs posing as regular players to make you think most people think everythings OK with the game. I do think that now... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Caleb Paine Infinite Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:25:00 - [70] Everyone is a BOB alt, oh and every BOB is Oveur's alt. Everyone but YOU. /points and screams the "Bodysnatchers" style. Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
DOGNOSH Minmatar SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:44:00 - [71] wow i post supporting the hardwork of GMs and ISDs and it got deleted ========================================== stop moaning,give CCP a break mmmm pink Eris will approve - Xorus

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