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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Lucio
Gallente
Incorporated Holdings
   |
Posted - 2006.09.07 07:06:00 -
[1]
Ok, so I'm not discussing GM moderation here but instead I'm asking why people think we're banned from talking about it?
Does it make the GM's jobs harder if their every decision could be scrutunised? Is there an imbalance in the way GM's handle people that CCP doesn't want us to find out about? Has there been past incidents that have forced them to start this policy to prevent similar things happening again?
I'm sure there's good reasoning for it, but really, what is it?
(Please do not use this thread for complaining about the GM's/Mods, this is a thread for thinking, not ranting)
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Yes, I know I have a negative sec. status but I'm not a pirate damnit! |
Joshua Foiritain
Gallente
Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:07:00 -
[2]
GM's from time to time give you diffrent answers, if people could compare answers in public this would obviously lead to problems. 
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:11:00 -
[3]
GM's every action being judged by the players is a bad idea. For example, player X gets his ship back but player Y does not. Then you have a thread comparing the actions and the evidence, and the GM's have to argue in defence using the forums. Can you imagine the soap opera being the result?
So.. no thanks. :)
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:19:00 -
[4]
Yeah, lets keep these forums civil, polite, and free of any tinfoil hattery.
Wait.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:19:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 07/09/2006 07:20:34
Are we even allowed to discuss why we're not allowed to discuss it?
GMs are like football refs - their decision is theirs alone, it's a tough job that mostly gets done well, and they deeserve a bit of respect for doing it.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Crunch Hardiron
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:23:00 -
[6]
Discussing moderation violates the privacy policy between you and CCP.
OMG! I contributed something!
At 3 in the morning!
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"Everyone who doesn't believe the sky is falling is an ass-kissing fanboi! EVE is going to fail, mark my words!" -Customers |
Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:31:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Rules
Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue.
You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned.
Warnings and bans are not to be discussed on the forum.
Such matters shall remain private between the CCP and the user. Questions or comments concerning warnings and bans will be conveyed through e-mail or private messaging. Likewise, discussions regarding moderator actions are not permitted on the forum. If you have questions regarding a post or thread, please contact [email protected].
Whenever I read those rules, all I think it that they only exist to cover-up the corrupt GMs that break the rules/eula...
Some things I have seen posted were:
GM giving their other account uber items.
GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner.
But what is worst than corrupt GMs are the really rude forum mods you say to "put on a t2 tinfoil hat" when someone posts about them...
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Mrmuttley
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eilie
Some things I have seen posted were:
GM giving their other account uber items.
GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner.
A large percentage of forum posts are a complete load. If you belive everything you're told on the forums your a fool
Samuel L Jackson is the famous one that alot of people believed for a long time. People like to create roumors and stories around things that will never ever be possible to verify. It either starts as chinese whispers or its a blatent attempt to start a roumor for either personal amusement or for gain in some other way.
If you had any proof of GM's being corrupt i trust you would take the matter up with CCP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am Dyslexic of Borg.
Your ass will be laminated.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Eve is not supposed to be fair
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:40:00 -
[9]
It's much harder to control people if they have freedom of expression. It's too tempting for people in power to exercise censorship, because it's so easy to get away with.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Syncore
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:43:00 -
[10]
I find it pretty obvious why its not allowed to discuss it for many reasons. Lets say a player does something, and get a temp ban for it. The banned person looses his mind, and hits on the forums, spreading hatred and demanding info why he got banned. Telling the GM is being unfair blah blah blah. The GM then goes online and telling to everyone that he was banned for lets say, buying isk? using exploits? i dunno. any reason really.
Now, the bannzored person reclaims his vits a few hours, but by then the reason is spread to everyone in the game, who now knows that that bastard tried to use bookmark exploits against someone in the last PvP battle. Or, he is an exploiter. we dont want to have anything with exploiters to do etc.
The CCP uphelds your privacy. And by not allowing you to spread the communicatsion, you are not in risk by destroying for yourself, for others, and for CCP.
Communication has to be private. Its your right. And its CCPs right.
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Spanker
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:48:00 -
[11]
Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot.
- Shpank |
Caleb Paine
Infinite Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:50:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Caleb Paine on 07/09/2006 07:55:22
Because people are growing tired of the endless "why ask why" things that would just clog up the forums. Also, they serve people a nice cup of STFU after they have been idiots, because why discuss things with an obvious idiot.
It's the reason I could never do their work, they always have to be friendly and keep their tone neutral, I want to be able to TELL people they are total idiots when that's the case and then just ignore them. I had thought about signing up for volunteering but never went through with it when I realised that fact... You have to be superman to control yourself when dealing with all the idiots, all the dumb petetitons, zillions... every day.
Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back. |
Eilie
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.09.07 07:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mrmuttley
Originally by: Eilie
Some things I have seen posted were:
GM giving their other account uber items.
GM allowing account thiefs to keep the character and only giving the empty account back to the original owner.
A large percentage of forum posts are a complete load. If you belive everything you're told on the forums your a fool
Samuel L Jackson is the famous one that alot of people believed for a long time. People like to create roumors and stories around things that will never ever be possible to verify. It either starts as chinese whispers or its a blatent attempt to start a roumor for either personal amusement or for gain in some other way.
If you had any proof of GM's being corrupt i trust you would take the matter up with CCP.
The first one is popular knowledge. It happened about a month ago and the GM was fired, but CCP almost didn't find out about it because of their stupid forum rules... So I wouldn't be surprised if it had happened other times too... 
The second one happened to a friend of mine. He quit for a while and when he came back, someone else had stolen his account. The GMs gave the account back empty and left the character with the theif. We sent in lots of petitions but CCP didn't care and even banned my other friend who tried posting about it on the forums... 
(Watch this post be deleted within 5 min  )
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Spanker
Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot.
Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's.
Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this.
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Shaikar
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:54:00 -
[15]
Three reasons imo.
First you already mention - having a thousand armchair wannabe-GM's scrutinising everything that is done and screaming about how it is all wrong would make the GM's job well nigh impossible to do.
Second is that a discussion needs evidence to be remotely sensible. Fine, but as soon as enough evidence starts getting posted about how the GM's work for such a discussion to take place you have more than enough evidence about how the GM's work for the dodgy people to find out how to exploit the system.
Third is because CCP says so, and it is their ball after all.
It is a very hard job to get right, a precarious balancing act and one which is impossible to do in such a way to please all the people all the time, especially given forums are involved - a job which they have done well imo, given my limited GM contact so far.
For some reason forums make people (in general) feel like they have an equal and vastly important right to be heard and obeyed. They don't. Now, hear me and obey! 
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Eron Lygera
Gallente
Sharded Awareness
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
... Can you imagine the soap opera being the result?
So.. no thanks. :)
Roger that!
GM's are humans, and as such not in complete sync with eachother. Differences occur. Not for 100k+ people to discuss.
Ps. Dont nerf WCS! |
Rabbitgod
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.07 07:56:00 -
[17]
*click-a-roo*
---{24th member of the 23}---
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Za Po
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:00:00 -
[18]
Why should moderation be discussed? Either you have proof that a GM did something wrong, or it's only your opinion. In the first case, you should contact CCP and posting on the forums won't help you. In the second, CCP has no reason to act against the GM, so it won't, regardless of how much you whine.
Basically, discussing moderation on the forums is only a way to gather pressure against GMs without having proof that they misbehaved. Very handy for people that break the rules: you're wrong, you know you're wrong, the GM knows you're wrong, but let's ***** about it anyway. Nothing good can come out of it.
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Eilie
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Spanker
Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot.
Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's.
Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this.
LOL, that's very true about Bush.
I do understand the forum rules for stopping 1000s of whines about how the GMs didn't give back their stuff from a reimbursment petition, but for more major issues like asking a GM if something is an exploit or not you should be able to post their response on the forums so everyone knows... 
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Mrmuttley
House of Tempers
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:03:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Mrmuttley on 07/09/2006 08:04:31
Originally by: Eilie
The second one happened to a friend of mine. He quit for a while and when he came back, someone else had stolen his account. The GMs gave the account back empty and left the character with the theif. We sent in lots of petitions but CCP didn't care and even banned my other friend who tried posting about it on the forums...
(Watch this post be deleted within 5 min )
If your freinds account did have that sort of problem then surely you dont think that a public forum was the best way to go about getting a resolution.
As for the first one if I had definate proof that GM A credited pilot B with a Caldari Navy Raven BPO or something like that then I would not take it to the forum I would contact CCP directly. If your right then CCP do deal with corrupt GMs harshly. Why any forum involvement is needed is beyond me.
FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am Dyslexic of Borg.
Your ass will be laminated.
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Eve is not supposed to be fair
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Za Po
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's.
Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this.
Ah, the democracy argument. This is a private board. The principle of freedom of speech does not apply to private places. Neither online, nor in real life.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Za Po
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's.
Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this.
Ah, the democracy argument. This is a private board. The principle of freedom of speech does not apply to private places. Neither online, nor in real life.
I think you misunderstood me. The rules on these forums are perfectly fine and makes sense. They make the forums a better place. The analogy to Bush was to make the point that ruling by fear and threats ALONE must never be accepted. That is NOT the case with these forums.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Za Po
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I think you misunderstood me.
Ah... yeah, probably. My apologies.
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James Snowscoran
Caldari
Coreli Corporation
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:19:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Spanker
Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot.
Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's.
Finding it hard to agree here. On the GM issue it is common knowledge that different GMs treat similiar or identical cases differently- just look at the SVE scam where the victims got reimbursed.
But at least we're allowed to debate the rules that GMs have to adhere to. We can claim it is unfair that people do not get reimbursed when they get blown up in a gatecamp and argue that this should be petitionable. It would of course never happen, but at least you'd be allowed to post such a thread and discuss it on the forum.
Now as to forum moderation, that's a different case altogether. If you don't like the way a mod acts in a specific case, you can't complain using forum posting. That's okay I guess, the mods are volunteers (unlike GMS) so they deserrve not to be flamed on a daily basis.
The really distasteful thing is, however, that you can't debate the forum rules themselves. You can't even debate why you're not allowed to debate the forum rules. Those threads get locked and deleted, gone from public knowledge. I kinda expect the same to happen with this thread since the OP mentioned moderators as well as GMs. And it is this hampering of open debate that is ****ing me off. This has nothing to do with civility, this is tbh only about not being open to suggestions and preferring not to listen to the wishes of the community.
The forums exist so that the EVE-O community can have a place to discuss life in the EVE Universe and everything. They do not exist so mods can go on power trips.
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Garia666
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:23:00 -
[25]
I am glad other people see htings in the same way..
Please take a look at the following link
And pelase give comments
Linky
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Kalki Nibiru
Gallente
ISS Navy Task Force
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lucio
Ok, so I'm not discussing GM moderation here but instead I'm asking why people think we're banned from talking about it?
Does it make the GM's jobs harder if their every decision could be scrutunised? Is there an imbalance in the way GM's handle people that CCP doesn't want us to find out about? Has there been past incidents that have forced them to start this policy to prevent similar things happening again?
I'm sure there's good reasoning for it, but really, what is it?
(Please do not use this thread for complaining about the GM's/Mods, this is a thread for thinking, not ranting)
Its the same reason why Pro Sport referee's aren't put under a microscope and forced to answer questions after a game.
Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate
.
<Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market?
<Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with |
Eilie
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2006.09.07 08:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mrmuttley
FWIW i didn't hear that particular roumor and nor do i want to know the details its between CCP and their employee.
It wasn't a rumor (although the rude mods accused people of spreading rumors at first) and some devs did eventually post and confirm it. You can still read the thread here.
I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know)
(I'm surprised this thread isn't even locked yet...)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Eilie
I'm not accusing any current GMs of anything, but my point is that with the forum rules, they could easily break the rules and no one would be able to say anything since it's impossible to directly contact the devs (as far as I know)
I dont think the devs would appriciate being disturbed by players complaining about their treatment in the forums... :p
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Boonaki
Caldari
Suffoco Noctis
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:37:00 -
[29]
Someone should create forums for discussing moderation, petitions, and GM responses.
Fear the Ibis of doom!
113 |
Spanker
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Posted - 2006.09.07 08:40:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Spanker
Even by posting in this thread you're all running the risk of being dragged off to a small dark sound proof room where you'll be shon in the face with a bright light and beaten up a lot.
Ruling by threats and fear must never be accepted. Its what the US government have done for years now. But people are starting to wake up...these forums are nothing like that. You have the rules and you have good reasons why they must exist. Explainations are given that makes sense. Unlike bush's.
Sorry for bringing politics into this... I just see similarities when I see posts like this.
I was only joking, gawd. CCP obviously have the right to moderate all they want without people spreading their infectious accusations of unfair treatment, and not only just because it says so in some long and incomprehencible EULA that nobody reads anyway. It's a business and I'd do the same. I mean what do you expect if you don't follow the rules.
- Shpank |
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