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replace laser cap use bonus on amarr ships

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Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1023	Posted - 2014.12.09 16:16:33 - [1] - Quote i think pretty much anyone who uses amarr ships would like too see this so called bonus removed and replaced with a useful bonus, no other race has a useless bonus like this , we have seen with other races removal of such bonuses and built into the hull instead, it also at T2 level leaves khanid ships gaining a bonus more and makes them more desirable too use aswell as their ships having the resists bonus. - speed bonus on minnie hulls, stabber hull - dronebay bonuses on gal hulls (only ishkur left with it for now) amarr ships with cap use bonuses on are -executioner - tracking -crusader - damage -tormentor - drone HP, add a drone -retribution - damage -coercer - damage -confessor - tracking -omen - optimal range -zealot - tracking -devoter - tracking -legion - remove on the liquid crystal sub and drone sub, damage bonus on covert sub. -harbinger - tracking -oracle - tracking -absolution - HP bonus -Armageddon Navy Issue - replace with armour HP bonus -redeemer - maybe optimal range or a damage bonus? -revelation - replace with armour HP bonus Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 294	Posted - 2014.12.09 16:29:25 - [2] - Quote Please, for the love of God CCP, get rid of this ancient, worthless bonus. EDIT: not that I necessarily agree with all the bonuses you have listed, some might be too much.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 849	Posted - 2014.12.09 16:38:26 - [3] - Quote I think we could apply what CCP did with HICs to Amarr hulls with a laser cap usage bonus. Replace the 10% reduction to laser cap usage per level with a more useful bonus and add a role bonus of 40% reduction to laser cap usage. Folks with the appropriate skill at V would take a hit 10% hit to cap usage, but everyone else would be as well of as before and everyone would gain an actual bonus. EDIT: For example, the Omen would go from Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost 5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire to Amarr Cruiser bounses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range (or tracking, damage, etc.) 5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire Role Bonus: 40% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost Thoughts? CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1023	Posted - 2014.12.09 16:46:11 - [4] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: I think we could apply what CCP did with HICs to Amarr hulls with a laser cap usage bonus. Replace the 10% reduction to laser cap usage per level with a more useful bonus and add a role bonus of 40% reduction to laser cap usage. Folks with the appropriate skill at V would take a hit 10% hit to cap usage, but everyone else would be as well of as before and everyone would gain an actual bonus. EDIT: For example, the Omen would go from Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost 5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire to Amarr Cruiser bounses (per skill level): 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range (or tracking, damage, etc.) 5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire Role Bonus: 40% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost Thoughts? i guess its an option , i did think about that but it seems a little odd as an role bonus on all laser ships and its not really a role. i would prefer either improving cap regen on the ship hulls that use them or maybe a mixture of that and reducing cap use on the weapons themselves. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 849	Posted - 2014.12.09 16:52:55 - [5] - Quote Harvey James wrote: i guess its an option , i did think about that but it seems a little odd as an role bonus on all laser ships and its not really a role. i would prefer either improving cap regen on the ship hulls that use them or maybe a mixture of that and reducing cap use on the weapons themselves. The problem with adjusting the base cap stats on the hulls in question is that they would suddenly get more cap for everything, not just lasers. So they'd be better at neuting, active tanking, remote repping, MWD-ing, etc. when all they really needed was some love to their laser cap usage. I'm sure the balance implications of half of the Amarr lineup suddenly getting a large boost to their base cap stats is obvious. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1023	Posted - 2014.12.09 16:57:06 - [6] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Harvey James wrote: i guess its an option , i did think about that but it seems a little odd as an role bonus on all laser ships and its not really a role. i would prefer either improving cap regen on the ship hulls that use them or maybe a mixture of that and reducing cap use on the weapons themselves. The problem with adjusting the base cap stats on the hulls in question is that they would suddenly get more cap for everything, not just lasers. So they'd be better at neuting, active tanking, remote repping, MWD-ing, etc. when all they really needed was some love to their laser cap usage. I'm sure the balance implications of half of the Amarr lineup suddenly getting a large boost to their base cap stats is obvious. until they start firing you mean .. then they will burn through that extra cap Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 220	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:08:50 - [7] - Quote if you're removing the bonus, you then need either to reduce laser cap use across the board (balance issues), or have a silly and out-of-place role bonus on a few select ships....... keep talking, but I'm not seeing a reasonable solution atm...... one that has just occured to me is to up the cap capacity and cap recharge rate on these ships, so that the cap use bonus is not required..... For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 849	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:09:19 - [8] - Quote Harvey James wrote: until they start firing you mean .. then they will burn through that extra cap And what's to say that they will be firing lasers all the time...or at all? All of the things I listed above can be done completely independently of lasers. Think outside the box. Unless you can guarantee that all of the extra cap only goes towards lasers, the hulls in question gain more ability to do other things longer. Imagine a neuting Harby with that much extra cap. Or a kiting Omen that can dictate range that much better by shutting down it's lasers for a few seconds. See where I'm going with this? CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
almanac Omaristos Hollow Blood Hunters Surely You're Joking 6	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:11:35 - [9] - Quote defiantly need we need another rebalance just for amarr
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1023	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:14:29 - [10] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Harvey James wrote: until they start firing you mean .. then they will burn through that extra cap And what's to say that they will be firing lasers all the time...or at all? All of the things I listed above can be done completely independently of lasers. Think outside the box. Unless you can guarantee that all of the extra cap only goes towards lasers, the hulls in question gain more ability to do other things longer. Imagine a neuting Harby with that much extra cap. Or a kiting Omen that can dictate range that much better by shutting down it's lasers for a few seconds. See where I'm going with this? then it needs too be weapon related .. just incase someone wants too fly a neuting harbi Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Ix Method Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 352	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:16:51 - [11] - Quote Wouldn't mind so much if half of them didn't still need a cap booster. Or didn't suffer from **** tracking on top. This bonus to free up a mid for ewar? Sure. Otherwise it's just needlessly gimping ships vs the competition. Travelling at the speed of love.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 849	Posted - 2014.12.09 17:29:33 - [12] - Quote Harvey James wrote: then it needs too be weapon related .. just incase someone wants too fly a neuting harbi Can you think of any other mechanism that helps the ships in question without changing their base cap, the base cap usage of lasers (which would cause balance issues of it's own), or wasting a skill level bonus like they do now? Please don't take this as sarcasm. I'm asking sincerely. A role bonus is the only way I can think of to help alleviate this problem without creating other problems somewhere else, but there may be other solutions. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Phaade Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF 294	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:11:08 - [13] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Harvey James wrote: i guess its an option , i did think about that but it seems a little odd as an role bonus on all laser ships and its not really a role. i would prefer either improving cap regen on the ship hulls that use them or maybe a mixture of that and reducing cap use on the weapons themselves. The problem with adjusting the base cap stats on the hulls in question is that they would suddenly get more cap for everything, not just lasers. So they'd be better at neuting, active tanking, remote repping, MWD-ing, etc. when all they really needed was some love to their laser cap usage. I'm sure the balance implications of half of the Amarr lineup suddenly getting a large boost to their base cap stats is obvious. Sooooo what? Stronger capacitor is perfectly fine if it is a ship bonus. The opportunity cost is less effective weapons, lower resists, or whatever else the bonus would be. Why is a neut harbinger with 25% more cap regen going to break the game? All serious neut ships have cap boosters to begin with, without them they are pointless. This is the best way to turn a garbage bonus into something reasonable without breaking the ships. Laser ships with optimal bonuses become powerful very quickly.
Omega Crendraven Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 227	Posted - 2014.12.09 18:12:07 - [14] - Quote Oracle needs a tracking bonus for sure
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1040	Posted - 2014.12.10 08:41:52 - [15] - Quote Omega Crendraven wrote: Oracle needs a tracking bonus for sure only concern there is it becoming better than the apoc in that role .. maybe the tank difference is enough at least in big fleets Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
James Baboli Ferrous Infernum 365	Posted - 2014.12.10 09:49:33 - [16] - Quote Harvey James wrote: Omega Crendraven wrote: Oracle needs a tracking bonus for sure only concern there is it becoming better than the apoc in that role .. maybe the tank difference is enough at least in big fleets Depending on which role you mean, it ends up either a somewhat superior sniper due to the native cap usage bonus on them already or a much worse midrange ship due to the significantly lower tank while maintaining a signature over that needed for cruisers to full damage most of the time. Making battleships worth the warp Tech 3 battleships. Moar battleships
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2042	Posted - 2014.12.10 10:14:54 - [17] - Quote I like having the capacitor cost reduction on Amarr ships. The ones that don't have it just need to have a strong enough base capacitor to run those lasers, and that means any capacitor you can save while not running them, or in finding alternate ways to reduce costs, will generate you a large marginal capacitor savings that can be used effectively for other things. The ships with the cost reduction as a skill bonus of course keep the strong capacitor, but no longer need it for the lasers. This means they are effectively capacitor-generating monsters. It also gives Amarr an advantage to the use of energy neutralizers. I like to think of lasers as an "overpowered" weapon system that is inherently more costly to use, to make up for their superior damage/range/tracking ratio. Ships with the capacitor cost reduction skill bonus are basically treating lasers as a more normal turret, with normal costs as well as one less ship weapon skill boost which leaves them at normalized output as well. If you remove the capacitor cost reduction skill bonus and roll it into the lasers themselves, then you must counter by reducing Amarr ships' capacitor generation into more normal levels. And that reduces racial flavor. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Major Trant Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 1268	Posted - 2014.12.10 11:45:42 - [18] - Quote Cap management is a feature of Amarr ships, the penalty to oppose the benefit of immediate crystal switching, never having to reload and awesome dps. There are crystals that reduce the cap load, but most people just ignore them choosing Multifreq or the T2 ammunition. The simple fact is that a ship bonus that reduces cap usage for lasers, effectively amounts to a DPS bonus because it allows you to fire Multifreq considerably longer, rather than say switch to Standard Crystals (45% reduced cap need). Last summer I took part in a series of sub cap POS bashes. We used ABCs and in a fleet of 20 with 5 of them Oracles firing T1 MultiFreq, the 5 Oracles consistently ended up as the top 5 damage dealers, with none of them needing to call for cap or use cap boosters. I've taken part in some deathstar POS bashes and in these cases (when dreads weren't an option) the preferred BS was an Abaddon. Now these did suffer cap problems. Guards or cap boosters was usually the solution, but another option could have been to simply drop the DPS, by switching to Standard crystals. However, to most people the thought of dropping DPS just to preserve cap is unthinkable. But that is how the system is designed to be and when you realize that, a bonus to laser cap usage does amount to a DPS boost. I use the example of POS bashes as these require sustained DPS over a considerable time - the worst case scenario for a laser boat and yet Laser boats are still the preferred choice. In shorter engagements the benefits of lasers are even more pronounced. -1
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2042	Posted - 2014.12.10 12:07:33 - [19] - Quote I once flew a Harbinger with only 3 laser crystal selections: gamma, ultraviolet, and radio. Aside from pretty-fying my brights, it made my car more fuel efficient without significantly impacting my ability to generate roadkill. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 859	Posted - 2014.12.10 12:09:27 - [20] - Quote Major Trant wrote: The simple fact is that a ship bonus that reduces cap usage for lasers, effectively amounts to a DPS bonus because it allows you to fire Multifreq considerably longer, rather than say switch to Standard Crystals (45% reduced cap need). I'm going to eat crow here for a moment and admit that, after seeing it explained like this, maybe the cap reduction bonus isn't broken like I had thought it was. It's similar to how I like to point out that optimal range bonuses on Caldari railgun ships is actually a damage bonus because it lets you use antimatter ammo out to longer engagement ranges when other ships would have had to switch to less-damaging ammo. Interesting.... CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2042	Posted - 2014.12.10 12:15:18 - [21] - Quote Or how a tracking bonus on autocannons allows them to hit the target without switching to depleted uranium, or a rate of fire bonus on any weapon gives slightly more DPS than a damage increase while giving some sort of drawback to balance it out: lasers: more cap usage missiles/autocannons: more ammo usage hybrids: more cap and ammo usage artillery: less alpha strike Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 860	Posted - 2014.12.10 12:32:22 - [22] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Or how a tracking bonus on autocannons allows them to hit the target without switching to depleted uranium, or a rate of fire bonus on any weapon gives slightly more DPS than a damage increase while giving some sort of drawback to balance it out: lasers: more cap usage missiles/autocannons: more ammo usage hybrids: more cap and ammo usage artillery: less alpha strike Yes, tracking and range bonuses are pretty clearly bonuses to damage application, which, in turn, increase DPS. I hadn't considered the laser cap usage bonus a bonus to damage application until just now. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1042	Posted - 2014.12.10 14:53:29 - [23] - Quote Major Trant wrote: Cap management is a feature of Amarr ships, the penalty to oppose the benefit of immediate crystal switching, never having to reload and awesome dps. There are crystals that reduce the cap load, but most people just ignore them choosing Multifreq or the T2 ammunition. The simple fact is that a ship bonus that reduces cap usage for lasers, effectively amounts to a DPS bonus because it allows you to fire Multifreq considerably longer, rather than say switch to Standard Crystals (45% reduced cap need). Last summer I took part in a series of sub cap POS bashes. We used ABCs and in a fleet of 20 with 5 of them Oracles firing T1 MultiFreq, the 5 Oracles consistently ended up as the top 5 damage dealers, with none of them needing to call for cap or use cap boosters. I've taken part in some deathstar POS bashes and in these cases (when dreads weren't an option) the preferred BS was an Abaddon. Now these did suffer cap problems. Guards or cap boosters was usually the solution, but another option could have been to simply drop the DPS, by switching to Standard crystals. However, to most people the thought of dropping DPS just to preserve cap is unthinkable. But that is how the system is designed to be and when you realize that, a bonus to laser cap usage does amount to a DPS boost. I use the example of POS bashes as these require sustained DPS over a considerable time - the worst case scenario for a laser boat and yet Laser boats are still the preferred choice. In shorter engagements the benefits of lasers are even more pronounced. -1 well the fact you can be neuted out fairly easily even with the cap bonus is a massive drawback already, but not being able too fire your guns for more than a few minutes at a time is quite absurd, lasers don't have the dps too compensate for even small periods of time not firing due too capping out. range isn't that much better than missiles for instance, instant ammo switching is nice but most crystals aren't worth using, after scorch the range, dps etc aren't good enough too justify the cap bonus. only way i think it can be justified is on something mobile (uses lots of cap) with a big ROF bonus not a piddly 5% ROF either Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 680	Posted - 2014.12.10 20:25:20 - [24] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Major Trant wrote: The simple fact is that a ship bonus that reduces cap usage for lasers, effectively amounts to a DPS bonus because it allows you to fire Multifreq considerably longer, rather than say switch to Standard Crystals (45% reduced cap need). I'm going to eat crow here for a moment and admit that, after seeing it explained like this, maybe the cap reduction bonus isn't broken like I had thought it was. It's similar to how I like to point out that optimal range bonuses on Caldari railgun ships is actually a damage bonus because it lets you use antimatter ammo out to longer engagement ranges when other ships would have had to switch to less-damaging ammo. Interesting.... I don't know what I like more - Major Trant's explanation or Bronson Hughes's unusual willingness to consider another person's opinion. Props to both you gentlemen. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2046	Posted - 2014.12.10 21:51:33 - [25] - Quote Harvey James wrote: well the fact you can be neuted out fairly easily even with the cap bonus is a massive drawback already, but not being able too fire your guns for more than a few minutes at a time is quite absurd, lasers don't have the dps too compensate for even small periods of time not firing due too capping out. I don't really have too much difficulty making lasers cap stable by themselves without the cap cost bonus, but I remember when I did. Perhaps the system is poorly setup for new players, as capacitor skills make such a tremendous difference in capacitor recharge rate. I think a good way to help mitigate this (and also ensure Amarr ships have a superior capacitor) is to boost their capacitor storage very significantly over other races' ships, without increasing their recharge rates from what they are now. This will have the advantages of making them more neut-resistant and will make newer pilots able to shoot longer, and the disadvantage of reducing how much capacitor recharge they get from capacitor batteries. I think that disadvantage is a pretty minor one, all things considered. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1760	Posted - 2014.12.11 03:00:19 - [26] - Quote CCP even officially acknowledged that Laser Cap bonuses were a problem when looking at the Battleships with Tiericide. And removed it from nearly all of them, leaving 1 which specifically has zero cap issues firing guns at all. Yet they are perpetuating the already acknowledged bad design in the small & medium classes. --- Also Amarr ships 'superior' capacitor is actually the weakest Capacitor once actually firing your weapon systems is taken into account.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1048	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:32:39 - [27] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: CCP even officially acknowledged that Laser Cap bonuses were a problem when looking at the Battleships with Tiericide. And removed it from nearly all of them, leaving 1 which specifically has zero cap issues firing guns at all. Yet they are perpetuating the already acknowledged bad design in the small & medium classes. --- Also Amarr ships 'superior' capacitor is actually the weakest Capacitor once actually firing your weapon systems is taken into account. indeed. also points at abbadons laughable cap regen. that thing needs an overhaul for sure .. less guns more utility highs and better dps. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2052	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:41:19 - [28] - Quote I would agree to a buff to Amarrian capacitor systems. Laser ships, as a design philosophy, should have uncommonly strong capacitors, even if it comes at the cost of something else. After all, Minmatar ships have smaller sig radius and higher velocity/agility at the expense of reduced hit points. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1762	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:10:20 - [29] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I would agree to a buff to Amarrian capacitor systems. Laser ships, as a design philosophy, should have uncommonly strong capacitors, even if it comes at the cost of something else. After all, Minmatar ships have smaller sig radius and higher velocity/agility at the expense of reduced hit points. Problem is a cap buff large enough to use lasers without the cap regen bonus makes them truly insane next to anything else. So Lasers still need a significant cap reduction. The Laser Cap use dates back to when Lasers were OP and people were putting them on everything.
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 1052	Posted - 2014.12.15 22:24:52 - [30] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: I would agree to a buff to Amarrian capacitor systems. Laser ships, as a design philosophy, should have uncommonly strong capacitors, even if it comes at the cost of something else. After all, Minmatar ships have smaller sig radius and higher velocity/agility at the expense of reduced hit points. and what would the penalty be? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists. ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.

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