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Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:15:00 - [61] Nah your post does bring up an interesting point of view Lugal. As you say it, CCP do seem to be kinda lost right now in how they should communicate these days. I personally would like the personal approach again but more emphasis put on that it's just the way things are run here, don't like it there is no point moaning. Having it all professional would imho break the relationship the players and devs have had for a long time and in the end alienate CCP too much ================================================
Mervent Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:20:00 - [62] I really miss the "23". They would ***** slap most posters who whined or did not know what they were talking about, and at the sametime, inform you of the truth/fact, and you as the reader would learn something.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:23:00 - [63] Heh heh they prob got burnt out maybe we could start the '2300' and start keeping the whiners in line for CCP ================================================
Syzdothyx	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:59:00 - [64] This is the most satisfying, mature and informative thread I've read on these forums. As a newcomer of 1 year playing, I've always found the forums full of ranters and whiners. Perhaps this thread contains an interesting solution to the information gap between devs and players. Obviously you veteran players are experienced in dealing with the assorted personalities present in this community..as well you have a keen understanding of gameplay and to some extent what goes on behind the game. You have also spoken at one time to the devs themselves. Perhaps a new forum position with "Information Translator" might work both as a way to satsify your need to know what the devs are really doing, and the whiners to understand the game. It would mean the devs give interviews to you the mature,level-headed and experienced players. And you would in turn field it out to us. It would mean more work for the forum mods, but at least it would be constructive posting to begin with.
Hakera	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:07:00 - [65] Hmm interesting topic the past is. I think the lyrics from wear sunscreen are appropiate; Quote: Accept certain inalienable truths, prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old, and when you do youÆll fantasize that when you were young prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders. Respect your elders. or to change it to eve lyrics Quote: Accept certain inalienable truths, patches will come, devs will philander, you too will get bored, and when you do youÆll fantasize that when you were noob patches were reasonable, devs were noble and noobs respected their elders. Respect your elders. Anyway, imo, the only things that have changed is that we are now a smaller number of voices trying to shout above a louder and noiser din. Not because there is louder shouting, but because there is more people doing so. In the past, say 2003, I would guess there was less than 1000 forum users, of which say 500 were active and present consistantly. It was much easier to get heard and much slower paced, new threads did not come as fast as they do now, it was easier to get opinions heard and devs had a much easier time tracking topics. Now ofc, you have only to look at the ships & modules forum to see the first two pages pre-occupied with a whole raft of silly suggestions and questions, nevermind general discussion where everyone now seems obliged to post about anything, no matter how insignificant, under the false belief they have a greater chance of being heard here than they would in the appropiate forum eg features & ideas forum. Eve is better imo than it was back then as a game, albeit we are stuck with game mechanics and features that cannot be really changed because they have always been that way, no matter how imbalanced, the sympton of creating everything from concept rather than experience, wheras I am sure Eve 2 will be much better and balanced from the beginning having built the foundations and been tested thouraghly here. As for your opinions on pathc notes, general information, as a hoover of information in my past life at Eve-I when rss feeds didnt exist. I think its more or less the same still, patch notes have always missed some information and devs ideas have always posted where they felt neccessary. I support the fact devs dont need to respond to every post just to say they have read it as it opens you to be obliged to provide comments on it. Hak
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:16:00 - [66] I wonder if Chribba (or CCP?) could provide statisics on dev posts over time since launch? I would guess that the number of dev posts has basically stayed the same, however thread "turnover" due to post counts have increased with the playerbase. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Hathi	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:26:00 - [67] What's changed? We have. Once it would be "I've been blown up" response would be useful advice, and that would be about it. Now it's "Arrggh I've been ganked, the griefers..." and the response "Go back to WoW", "insert leet speak" or "pwnd". Once upon a time cruisers were BIG, BS rarely seen and no T2 anything. You could do what you wanted, no (or little) name calling, or "My way is best, you are wrong". It was fun. Now I'm not so sure. I don't PvP (fight), never saw the fun, no reason to stop others. I like missions, or just pottering about; why do people seem hellbent on stopping that? Noobs could ask, and get help. Wonder why that's changed? I rarely post in here, others have more experience (I've only been here 2 1/2 years), are more articulate and alot quicker. Starting to wonder why I'm actually posting here, or (in most cases, exceptions DO, thankfully, still exist) reading the drivel that seems to fill most threads.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Hllaxiu I wonder if Chribba (or CCP?) could provide statisics on dev posts over time since launch? I would guess that the number of dev posts has basically stayed the same, however thread "turnover" due to post counts have increased with the playerbase. TomB, for example That's Chribba's search engine and feature - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:35:00 - [69] Hathi, I think the informative posts stopped because, as with all things, the way you interact with people changes over time. If you have a good exp in taking part with a well discussed topic it's all good an you pass that standard to others. BUT if you get one bad response it does taint how you reply from then on, you get a lil bit more defensive. and then this builds over time with every negative response you get. In the end it all ends the same, if you see a post and know nothing good will come will adding suggestions and advising (and dont' aggree with the op's point of view exactly) you just automatically reply with something quick and negative i.e, 'Go play wow' All we, as forums posters, need to do is reset our current point of view. reply to posts again in a well informed manner and as a whole shout down the guys who don't add anything to the forums but negativity. but thats easier to say than do. ================================================
Zissou 5 November	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:37:00 - [70] I started playing just after release in 2003 and I think EVE's come a long way since then; I don't think anyone would disagree. One thing I do miss is the weekly dev chats. It was good to read what was going on and see the devs responding to players questions about bugs etc. It seems that after the original Morkt Drak(t) left, (someone explain the name change for me btw) that sort of stopped. I think it would be good to get it back in some fashion (monthly?). Now I have to admit I've done my fair share of whining and the fact that I'm still waiting for my first T2 blueprint to drop from an R&D agent is a HUGE source of pain for me. But I don't think theres generally so much to complain about now as there was when I started playing - anyone remember, 'jumping, black screen, black screen, sound of explosion, black screen, black screen, cloning station'? That used to be how you knew the system you just jumped into was camped! It would be nice to get a bit more info from the devs sometimes but I'd sacrifice this for content patches like RMR and Kali anyday. One of the criticisms the devs were getting in 2004 was the lack of content patches - seems like they sorted that out.
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:47:00 - [71] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/09/2006 16:34:30 Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO As a playerbase should we really sit down and think... Man, maybe I should just not worry at all about where my $15 a month is goin. Dude, it's a game that WE PAY FOR. It's their job to provide us with information. Nope. Its their job to provide a game. You're both wrong, their job is to provide what the customer wants, the customer defines these terms by deciding to pay or not. If the customer is paying, then CCP are doing their job satisfactorily in the eyes of the consumer. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Suze'Rain	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:49:00 - [72] Edited by: Suze''Rain on 07/09/2006 19:50:53 I've been an acive member on these forums - and their predecessors - for something approaching 6 years now. The difference in attitudes is incredible - the hostility and venom people spit out nowadays is awful compared to then. the "**** off to WOW" type attitudes, the "STFU Noob" mentality. Yes, we have a game now, unlike all those yeras ago, and yes, there are many areas which are'nt satisfactory. if we'd thought we'd get 30,000 subscribers, yet alone 30,000 concurrent subscribers when we started talking about the ground-breaking mmo back then, we'd have been in a pipe-dream. Eve has not grown for the better in many ways, and it's a terrible shame that with popularity has come hostility in the forums. Frankly, I can't blame the devs for having taken steps away from the forums as a result of our behavior.
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:50:00 - [73] I've been playing since 2k3 (I think) and the forums have really changed for the worst. When CCP would suggest a change a while back, people would discuss, enquire and generally be curious. These days you have people going absolutely ape**** over ships which haven't yet been tested or even released. There is a shed load of flack heading towards the devs atm, where in the past there used to be a lot more respect floating about. I remember also the occasional dev chat which I don't think we've had this year. The community is getting bigger and it's not for the better. The boards are so full of trolls and whiners it's really quite concerning. In the good old days you'd go into low sec with the acknowledgement you may get you're arse kicked and now people seem to get upset when any little thing happens. Devs don't chat as much as they used to and I don't blame them. What used to be a great little community has become a pit for arsehats, morons and trolls. That thread about the tier 3 bs's will always remain in my mind the blazing example of what the eve community is bocomming...or maybe it's more to do with the amount of people who have access to the internet shrugs. Lets have player Quality Control! (that is a joke, for any morons who don't know any better)
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:02:00 - [74] Ah yes, good old dev chats. Someone with a bit higher Dev Connections and IRC Operations skills than me really should start those up again. One of the most entertaining and up to date information about the devs' short and long term visions and ideas could be found in those. The questions were seldom all you'd like to hear, or the ones you really wanted answers to, but there'd always be a few that caught your eye and fancy "never thought of that, that's a great question". - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Wanoah Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:17:00 - [75] I have fond memories of new content being heralded by news pieces, event arcs and chronicles. Over the last year it's been: dreadnaughts plonk carriers plonk outposts plonk TITANS plonk shiny stuff! plonk.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:22:00 - [76] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 07/09/2006 20:22:21 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Hllaxiu I wonder if Chribba (or CCP?) could provide statisics on dev posts over time since launch? I would guess that the number of dev posts has basically stayed the same, however thread "turnover" due to post counts have increased with the playerbase. TomB, for example That's Chribba's search engine and feature It'd be unfair to compare TomB 2003-2004 to 2005-2006 as he no longer has the same job - Tuxford has it. There are also far more members of the dev team, so thats why I asked for statistics for the entire class of people "devs" - perhaps an option to exclude the community managers from those statistics. (as for Tuxford vs TomB - Tuxford is averaging 1.0 post/day since he started on the forum, TomB averages .95 over the period that he was the nerfbat guy) BTW: WE WANT MORE DEV CHATS!!!! --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:37:00 - [77] I think the OP is spot on, so is Epsilon regarding changes to the game after RMR. Maybe the (original)devs are just tired, god knows how many hours they work per year. Maybe they feel that they 'made it'(and they certainly did!) and are handing over more work to other and never devs who dont have the same way of thought? All we can do is wait and see I guess. Recruitment
Paul Castrin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:50:00 - [78] Originally by: Garramon As far as the devs not talking...well we used to have the IRC meeting with them back in the day, that was cool. I looked forward to reading the transcripts. Thinking back though... The blog didn't exist though, and I barely remember seeing them post on the forums. I was just thinking of the IRC days too. I too never got the chance to attend one but loved reading the transcripts. The give and take, the shear amount of information in those chats (some real some inferred), was what made the devs feel more a part of the gamescape than anything else. But then maybe that is why the OP feels that the level of communication has changed. There is no doubt the content has but in a universe that has grown 300% since I've been on I think the devs are just tired of constantly defending each comment they make. It used to be far more casual and fun to talk to them. Now ever post they make there are those that feel they have to demand to be heard by them and kneel to their $14.95 they spend to play here. So I doubt it's as much fun as it used to be for them. If personal experience means anything I know that people hate doing things they don't find fun and/or interesting. The habit of devs posting in blogs now I think is an outgrowth of all this. A sort of defense mechanism where in they can post what they feel and not be directly attacked for it. Oh sure the blogs are linked in the forums but remember when the blogs had a comments section UNDER the blog themselves? Gone now so if people flame them they can just easily ignore it and focus on following the path they set out in the blog itself. This is not a dig at this evolution in communication but just to point out that indeed the way as well as the amount (per the OP) that the devs communicate to us has changed ... mostly for the worse. We need only look around here to see why.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:35:00 - [79] I have been around since... well, I have forgotten that, and yes this is a main character, proberly the longest one who have ever stayed active in the "noob" corps. Doesn't matter, to me NOTHING has changed, especially in regard to the forums complaints. With the introduction of the regular blogs communication with the playerbase has never been better. And EVE is still far superior game play vise to any other MMO out there and that is all that matters. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Alisha Retaris Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:57:00 - [80] Well I Have been Around since B4 the Open Beta and I can honestly say that the "whine" factor has increased exponentialy in the past year. IMO the devs have been posting less because of the "Gimmie Now or I'll cry" attitude of 80% of the people who post on the forums. I personally am sick of it. Adapt to the current game or leave! quit the Damm whining like a 2 year old. In the past yes the devs comunicated more with us but you didn't have all the whining complaining ect from the player base that you do now. EvE unlike other MMOG's is in constant development with new content that is FREE (omg imangine that). Games Like DAOC charge you for the additional content in addition to the monthly subscription fee. Devs ask (not as frequent as they used to) what we wan't to see in the game (not likely to happen with other MMOG's) and to date 90% of what was promised to come has been acheived along with stuff never imanged upon conception. So to put it Bluntly. Quityour*****in.
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:09:00 - [81] Originally by: Laythun time are different. the eve-o forums used to be a source of knowledge and a place to talk constructively about problems. But recently....its just whine whine moan moan by all the wannabe bedroom gamers that theink there experts on server systems. Its a shame. when i joined it was great, the forums were reverred and you'd dare not post on them unless you have a constructive thing to say. Maybe its down to the explosion in numbers, i dont know, but i see a lot of people (expecially new people) thinking these boards are for general whinage about the game. and its sad, the newer community (not all) is letting the game down. Letting everyone down. Today i see a post about a retriever being popped in 0.4, i mean W T F, was that thread worthy? i dont think so. people these days seem to want to whine and have stuff changed instead of still believing in CCP's vision. they may not get it right all the time, but whining and hitting the boards with any little problem WILL never be the solution. Quite honestly i dont blame the devs for not showing up on the forums as much, i mean if you scan the top 20 threads, gurantee most are whines, with no constructive criticism. Its a shame. QFT. I honestly this this is the best post in the thread. Even if I dislike the likes of some greifers, they still uphold the spirit of the game which has made it so unique. For that they deserve the respect of all players (and a round at the bar if Eve gets popular enough to warrant a super convention) who respect the game values and what to see it progress. Unfortunately the influx of players from less respectful mmos has introduced quite a bit of complaining that worked for them on their last mmo to get them everything they wanted inturn ruining that game. There is so much CCP does for the player community that is different from everywhere else. Eve TV, tournaments, active participation in forums, etc are all things that we all enjoy and are unfortunately taking for granted.
Sharupak	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:30:00 - [82] Couldnt disagree more! In the begining, they talked about more ships, space stations, missions that worked, Hell If you remember, 90% of the loot you picked up on a mission was either completely useless and couldnt be sold in the market. 0.0 was a joke to anyone flying cruiser or more. In fact, rats in 0.0 only chance to beat you was if your 30 minutes on the server were up and everyone was going to get kicked off at the same time! Just about all that is fixed and the game that CCP told us we were getting is here! They are getting alot more players now and I am sure they are busy trying to handle it, thats all.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.08 01:04:00 - [83] Sharupak, it's not about The content within EVE read the ops post. We are discussing about the way CCP communicated and how it has changed this past year ================================================
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:08:00 - [84] For the perceived non-responsiveness of the devs on the forum, there is a simple explanation: the number of players has grown faster than the number of devs, so they cannot reply as often to individual questions/threads anymore. As for the stagnation in development - it may be blamed on the scaling issues, which CCP doesn't have under control yet, but I guess most people also would like bugs fixed first. The fanboys on the forum disgust me - they should get a life, they're so much in denial of everything that they should seek out medical help for their addiction. ;-) "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:45:00 - [85] In the year I've been playing, I've seen the ammount of info we are given INCREASE. But you know what has increase far more? The ammount of whining, ***ing, and players who can't ever be satisfied. Remember when the band of bloggers started, and there was a week pause or so? People FREAKEd. Every time I saw a 'OMG WE GET NO INFO CCP *** HATES US' thread during that time, I wanted to do very mean things to that character, and rip them a new *** via a forum post. I did that only once though, and coincidentally, I have 1 forum warning, but it was worth it. Why are you ***ing about EON, saying it's junk, then saying how they don't make enough for more than 10% of players? That's like saying that HACs suck, and CCP should seed 50 more BPOs for each of them. What information is only in EON? I remember seeing the new ship models before corpmates who ordered EON (since the pack was posted on this website). You may think the devs talk less, but you fail to realize those days of 7k being HUGE are gone, and have been since before I started august of last year. There are more players, and more ground for them to cover, more employees for them to guuide, and more work for them to do. The information may not be as 'personal', but it's still there, and as I've already said, we get more info now than I remember seeing when I started a year ago. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:49:00 - [86] Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Our monthly payment entitles us to play a game. Other things can/should be expected from a company that wishes to keep its clients around. Are you playing a game? You are? shut the hell up then, or point to me where in the TOS/EULA it says you can demand information from CCP on a regular basis. If you don't like the 'lack' of information, you're SOL as far as MMOs go. You can expect whatever the hell you wantm but that doesn't mean you get it. I can expect to win the lotto if I play, but that won't make it happen. Time devs spend chatting with us is time they don't spend working on the game. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:00:00 - [87] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 08/09/2006 08:05:08 Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Alyssa Keliaster Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.09.08 09:09:00 - [88] I remember...a long time ago, when missiles exploded on roids and Battleship were rare. When getting blown up was just that, not a chance for someone to spam you with "I kiiled you so yo is cr*p!!". When the forums were full of 'conversations' and not arguments or even ceaselessly censored (why put the word in if you know its going to be censored?) slagging matches. I remember...taking risks to glean that little more cash out of missions. Running gatecamps (before instalocks/pops). I remember talking to people in system, just cause they were there. I remember ganging with complete strangers because we could, and it was more fun to work together. I remember...playing a game for fun. A lot of that seems to have gone now. Anyone know where it went? ------------------------------------- Inhale....Kill....Exhale Proud Lieutenant of the Hadean Drive Yards Sign up to The Yards HERE
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:44:00 - [89] Before you ask the question why the devs seem to communicate less you could ask yourself why. Together with many new players there came many new *ssholes. And a large portion seem to be attracted by the forums. Their criticism isn't constructive but plain egocentric and childish. And pherhaps in the old days the devs could have IRC sessions because a smaller group liked to talk with them. But now with that many people it's simply not possible anymore. Pherhaps the working pressure on the devs has increased so much that they cannot afford to hang out and chat up to us. Taking too much friggin time. I guess if you wanna know more stuff you simply will have to get involved. Either go to the Fanfest or team up as a bughunter. And read up as much as possible with the blogs. When it comes to patchnotes and releases I agree 100% that it should be as informative as possible so that everyone has the same advantage when it comes to knowing about vital parts of the game. And its good fun to know about whats happened with the patch anyway. Good old times never will come back but expecting things to change for the better by itself is too easy. To help change it for the better actually works faster.
Sharupak	Posted - 2006.09.08 13:04:00 - [90] Originally by: Auldare Sharupak, it's not about The content within EVE read the ops post. We are discussing about the way CCP communicated and how it has changed this past year I know, I think they are just super busy right now...they are sort of remarketing this game if you have noticed. We are getting a steady increase of players...I think they are handleing that and just havent gotten on top of it yet. These guys are pretty small! They dont have the resources like SOE or Blizzard! I just wanted to point out that even though they arent communicating much lately, they are fixing and improving the game. Which is more than you can say for SOE games! Thats all.

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