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Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:36:00 - [1] This is not a thred about back when the Megathron could fit four launchers. It's not a thred about when the Scorpion was a railgun ship with optimal range bonus. It's a thred about how (I feel) the devs have stopped talking to us. I turn to all the older players. Those who've been with the game for more than two years and remember Castor patching, etc. Back in the days we didn't have EON, we didn't have proper new channels, the blogs were shorter, the forums smaller. We were a smaller bunch of players and marveled over 7,000 players online on a busy sunday. T2 ammo abomination was but a rumour and TomB told us that it was wasn't ever going to be released. Most of us were struggling to get battleships. We didn't even have fancy "in development" CCP release patches now, and they released patches then. The patch notes were always lacking, of course, but something's different now a days. I cannot help but feel that the devs aren't talking to us as much as they used to. No offence to Jiekron (sp?) or the others who do the best to brighten our moods, I'm talking mostly about game balance and game contents devs. And patch notes. We used to have these large threds or dev blogs with patch information. They used to come weeks in advance. They used to be "we're thinking about doing this" and then when patch comes "we're doing this". Today we get patch notes while server is being patched - and we can't read them since forums are down. Even worse is that all the flashy information about new contents is released through EON only and those of us who do not feel like paying for a magazine with 80% gibberish (I'm not interested in what CYVOK has to say, and those ship tests are always so wrong anyway since it's so subjective, OK?) have to ask mates who did buy it to read/scan/lend the paper to you. It's not even released in large enough batches to cover 10% of the EVE players. Does anyone else feel the same way? That information about the future gameplay of EVE has been nerfed over the years. More information channels with more words and less information. Devs at CCP, could you talk with us once more? - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:41:00 - [2] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/09/2006 15:43:03 Well, I havent been here 2 years, but I spend alot of time in the forums. All I see is whine, whine, whine these days from the playerbase. Of course the devs arent going to feel like talking to them/us. Maybe the playerbase was more mature back then? Also I think the game was new so the devs were more interested in getting feedback etc. These days its like no matter what ccp says, somebody thinks there is a conspiracy going on and that they spend more time counting money than working on the game. I cant blame them for spending less time in the forums. Wouldnt you do the same? Also they have said in the blogs that they prefer to blog their replies instead of answering to some forum post that will be hard to find for people. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Agnar Koladrov Gallente Hurricane Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:44:00 - [3] Even though my char is 1 year and 2 month old, so im not a really old player. But I do notice a differance compared even to last year. Remember the MK2 threads, fenominal they were (as in informative and fun discussions), with good informations and ideas in there. But now, maybe it is because of the summer holidays that there is little respons from the dev team, I dunno really. Maybe they are just sick of the *****ing of the majority of ppl, with that I mean the "tone" in some and rather large number of discussions. ________________________________________________ Bring The Stabber in line with the other two versions. Add a 4th low!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:44:00 - [4] Edited by: Ithildin on 07/09/2006 15:46:51 Well... yes. It was more mature back then. Read Ships and Modules forum and go back to page 1105 or something. Found a post called "Why does TomB hate Caldari", and while it was basically whining, it was done in an arguing form rather than me-wants-now form (and yes, Caldari missiles really did suck back then). But still, two points remain CCP needs to go back and get better at: * releasing information about what they intend to implement * releasing information about what is to come in next patch Can be easily done by having someone update the in-development and in-testing sections. You shouldn't need to buy a fan-mag to get to know their visions. You shouldn't need to know the devs personally to get to know what's slated for the next patch when it comes to game balance. - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Benco97 Gallente Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:51:00 - [5] Yes, I remember the old days of EVE, when it was young. They are still trying to talk to us you know, can't you feel that? it's us that is stopping them now. I've always cried my love for the mods/devs/gods of CCP, i've seen them all, name a game and i've played it but CCP guys were the best, still are in my opinion, it's US that have changed. The influx of fresh blood brought a new breath to Eve but it seems to have drowned our mature side, the very foundation roots of our little society. reading as many threads, mails and scraps as I can from CCP I see that they are still trying as they were back then and I feel sorry for the ones who have to deal with us these days, it's the players doing a disservice to the Game, not the other way around. I'm sorry if that doesn't make any sense..but those are my feelings on the matter, from my secret heart. Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (F.A.G) and Registered Fedo breeder
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Ithildin But still, two points remain CCP needs to go back and get better at: * releasing information about what they intend to implement * releasing information about what is to come in next patch I would love some more discussions about what they are planning to do too. But I do remember them listening to the blog comments when it came to the design of Contracts for example. People wanted it global, and they made it possible to at least view it globally. So thats good. Some other blogs havent been so good... I would have loved some more actual discussion with Tuxford about the tier 3 battleship bonuses, but he doesnt comment much on it. I have to admit its frustrating, and I think alot of the whine lately might actually be because he doesnt comment on some of the ship balancing threads that keep popping up (about the same things). --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:56:00 - [7] I sort of agree. I think the communication is good in general. I think there's a difference between what CCP say they are going to do and what they actually do. We are promised improvements around the corner and Kali was quoted as the magic bullet for everything for the past year. Now that Kali is imminent we'll find out that it didn't actually address the things we were lead to believe it would. Instead it will be implemented or fixed SoonÖ Or maybe I'm just jaded...
Laythun Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:57:00 - [8] time are different. the eve-o forums used to be a source of knowledge and a place to talk constructively about problems. But recently....its just whine whine moan moan by all the wannabe bedroom gamers that theink there experts on server systems. Its a shame. when i joined it was great, the forums were reverred and you'd dare not post on them unless you have a constructive thing to say. Maybe its down to the explosion in numbers, i dont know, but i see a lot of people (expecially new people) thinking these boards are for general whinage about the game. and its sad, the newer community (not all) is letting the game down. Letting everyone down. Today i see a post about a retriever being popped in 0.4, i mean W T F, was that thread worthy? i dont think so. people these days seem to want to whine and have stuff changed instead of still believing in CCP's vision. they may not get it right all the time, but whining and hitting the boards with any little problem WILL never be the solution. Quite honestly i dont blame the devs for not showing up on the forums as much, i mean if you scan the top 20 threads, gurantee most are whines, with no constructive criticism. Its a shame. *See You In Space Cowboy*
Labtest	Posted - 2006.09.07 15:57:00 - [9] Edited by: Labtest on 07/09/2006 15:58:51 I agree with you Ithildin, it seams something has changed over at CCP for the past 6-8 months maybe more. Just look at how the horrible stacking penatly affected amarr and now months later no dev has even commented on it. Its redicilous. what was the point of that stacking penalty really? It was rubbish. There has been many older players that has spoken their mind for the past month or so. You are not alone.
Labtest	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Laythun Quite honestly i dont blame the devs for not showing up on the forums as much, i mean if you scan the top 20 threads, gurantee most are whines, with no constructive criticism. Its a shame. They dont have to reply to all the rubbish whines, but they could share their thoughts about what they are doing and how/why they are doing it.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:13:00 - [11] Originally by: Labtest They dont have to reply to all the rubbish whines, but they could share their thoughts about what they are doing and how/why they are doing it. they do - more then any other game. period. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
Labtest	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:15:00 - [12] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: Labtest They dont have to reply to all the rubbish whines, but they could share their thoughts about what they are doing and how/why they are doing it. they do - more then any other game. period. Read op's post. Period.
Weirda Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Benco97 Yes, I remember the old days of EVE, when it was young. They are still trying to talk to us you know, can't you feel that? it's us that is stopping them now. qft. every time a dev DOES come out, a pack of angry immature wolf tear them apart. tell them they 'fail at life'. start 30 more threads about how retarded they are and whine at 3am iceland time about them not responding NOW. oveur have stated in a recent blog their reasons for NOT answering all the threads (has more to do with giving us BETTER more SOLID information), but trying to make up communication in dev blogs and limited responses. __ Weirda Join QOTSA Now
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Jim McGregor Well, I havent been here 2 years, but I spend alot of time in the forums. All I see is whine, whine, whine these days from the playerbase. Of course the devs arent going to feel like talking to them/us. Best way to stop a baby from crying is to give it a bottle. The devs (recently) have been lacking in giving us a nipple to suck on. Just my .02 I await Kali, but I have to tell you I'm getting pretty sick of waiting for SOMETHING. I mean, we have what less than a month to Kali? Practically no info. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Labtest	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:20:00 - [15] Edited by: Labtest on 07/09/2006 16:20:56 Originally by: Weirda you are a good example of why devs do not post here (and why weirda rarely post here anymore). or at least your post is. Is that so? Its obvious you failed to connect my reply with the op's post. I never said they dont reply, yet in your brain you somehow read that I wrote just that.
EvilNate Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:21:00 - [16] I can see both sides of the coin. When the devs talk to us, there tends to be alot of whining, but tbh, there is alot to whine about now days. Nate. -------- www.bydi.org - Mercanaries for Hire
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Benco97 Yes, I remember the old days of EVE, when it was young. They are still trying to talk to us you know, can't you feel that? it's us that is stopping them now. I've always cried my love for the mods/devs/gods of CCP, i've seen them all, name a game and i've played it but CCP guys were the best, still are in my opinion, it's US that have changed. Are you kidding me? That is NOT the reason the devs don't talk to us. You really think they care that much? If they do they are a bunch of babies. They supply us with a game and thus we expect certain things from them. God forbid that someone actually gets upset!!! As a playerbase should we really sit down and think... Man, maybe I should just not worry at all about where my $15 a month is goin. Dude, it's a game that WE PAY FOR. It's their job to provide us with information. I'm sick of this being blamed on an increasingly immature playerbase. Take WoW for example... Ummm hello (Most immature playerbase in the world)!!! Do you see how many dev posts there are in their forums? Sincerely, Not a Fan Boy ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:28:00 - [18] I think it's playerbase that has changed and over time it has burnt out the devs/gms etc Think about it this way... How long would seeing page upon page of people critising something you have cherished from the middle 90's and watched grow? What about the constant bombardment of posts from people who demand satisfacted on certain things changing which goes directly against the whole concept of what eve is meant to be. I have seen a spectacular rise in posts from people saying 'I pay to play this game, I will play it how I want to' This is not what EVE is about, from it's very concept EVE is about player interaction good or bad. Also any good posts that CCP would have replied to in the old days are lost in the sea of gibberish. I honestly would love to hear that one day all the Devs in a meeting one day go 'That's it EVE has went off track, time to pull the brakes and bring it all back on course' ================================================
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:29:00 - [19] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/09/2006 16:34:30 Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO As a playerbase should we really sit down and think... Man, maybe I should just not worry at all about where my $15 a month is goin. Dude, it's a game that WE PAY FOR. It's their job to provide us with information. Nope. Its their job to provide a game. Ive always seen stuff like the test server, devs sharing their feelings about things etc as something extra. Something to be grateful for and not demanded. It doesnt say anywhere that they have to respond to threads in the forums if they dont want to. I would like them too, and im thankful when they do reply. Also I think its good for the company if they communicate with us. But to go from that to saying that they are ignoring us, or lying to us, or dont care about us... thats extreme imo. All it does it alienating the devs so they respond less and less instead of more and more. Its very simple. Im not saying you should kiss their ass. But some of the whines here are just awful in their constant negativity. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Auldare I honestly would love to hear that one day all the Devs in a meeting one day go 'That's it EVE has went off track, time to pull the brakes and bring it all back on course'
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:31:00 - [21] No arguing over who read what or what monthly payment entitle us to. Stay on topic, I do not want to have to mail CCP to get this thred cleaned. You didn't need to write that in the good old days, either. - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Bad Andy Mystical Awakening	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:34:00 - [22] The dev's had a dream that was frequently shared back then. If they are doing the same now it is heard less frequently. What is their dream now? EveTV? EON? Have they acheived so much of what they originally set out to do that they don't feel so excited? Has so much new-blood been brought in that's diluted the hardcore original three? Or are they so busy with their vision that they haven't told us what it is? Communication is key. It seems that new companies know this from the start (Roma Victor on one side) and others don't (Dark and Light on the other) but it's true that the community here seems a little less directed and little more run-away than it was a few years back.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/09/2006 16:30:41 Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO As a playerbase should we really sit down and think... Man, maybe I should just not worry at all about where my $15 a month is goin. Dude, it's a game that WE PAY FOR. It's their job to provide us with information. Nope. Its their job to provide a game. Ive always seen stuff like the test server, devs sharing their feelings about things etc as something extra. Something to be grateful for and not demanded. It doesnt say anywhere that they have to respond to threads in the forums if they dont want to. Well I'm telling you that a good way to captivate your paying customers is to form and maintain a relationship with them. Otherwise they feel neglected and leave. The test server... hmmm I've had a second account re-activated from a while back running for almost 3 months now... Can I even get in the test server? I think not. Its the little things. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Ithildin No arguing over who read what or what monthly payment entitle us to. Stay on topic, I do not want to have to mail CCP to get this thred cleaned. You didn't need to write that in the good old days, either. Forums are for discussion, no one is arguing here. Our monthly payment entitles us to play a game. Other things can/should be expected from a company that wishes to keep its clients around. As far as Dev involvement? One word. Sloppy ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:42:00 - [25] Edited by: Auldare on 07/09/2006 16:42:50 kk Ithildin, I'll try to keep on track It is an interesting point but I think there is no simple answer. A lot of people just joining may come from a different culture of online games where the game was created as a service and not really made the way EVE was made. CCP was created by a group of guys who had a vision that is eve, this is a game of dreams more so than a game of business. With the way the player base has reacted lately to when a CCP does post they have to tragically make asolutely sure what they do say is what will happen. There is no more posting thoughts CCP have to post 'official' comments that prob have to be vetoed in God knows how many meetings before it can go public to minimise hysteria amognst a certain porportion of the player base which tragically has been growing recently ================================================
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:42:00 - [26] Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Well I'm telling you that a good way to captivate your paying customers is to form and maintain a relationship with them. Otherwise they feel neglected and leave. The test server... hmmm I've had a second account re-activated from a while back running for almost 3 months now... Can I even get in the test server? I think not. Its the little things. Yes, but our relationship with them is being poisoned by all the whines. Would you like to have a relationship with someone who dont even seem to like you? When CCP posts they are happy about the PCU 30k record, people whine about that being wrong too, because there are still bugs in the game and ccp shouldnt be happy until they all are fixed... I mean, come on.... About the test server, its just an extra thing. Its not included in the sub. They mirror it every now and again, and if your account was not active when its mirrored, you wont get in. Thats technical reasons - not ccp deciding to block you out because they dont like you... You say its the little things - well, im betting thats what ccp thinks when they read these forums and see all the whines. They all add up and makes them dont want to communicate unless they have to. I also remember kieron sounding happy 6 months ago.. usually using smileys in the posts and seemed to enjoy things. Now his posts are just official sounding with no personality. That happens when you complain all the time. People even complain about the language not being 100% accurate, or the MOTD having a spelling error... I mean, isnt it time to just give it all a rest? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Well I'm telling you that a good way to captivate your paying customers is to form and maintain a relationship with them. Otherwise they feel neglected and leave. The test server... hmmm I've had a second account re-activated from a while back running for almost 3 months now... Can I even get in the test server? I think not. Its the little things. Yes, but our relationship with them is being poisoned by all the whines. Would you like to have a relationship with someone who dont even seem to like you? When CCP posts they are happy about the PCU 30k record, people whine about that being wrong too, because there are still bugs in the game and ccp shouldnt be happy until they all are fixed... I mean, come on.... About the test server, its just an extra thing. Its not included in the sub. They mirror it every now and again, and if your account was not active when its mirrored, you wont get in. Thats technical reasons - not ccp deciding to block you out because they dont like you... You say its the little things - well, im betting thats what ccp thinks when they read these forums and see all the whines. They all add up and makes them dont want to communicate unless they have to. I also remember kieron sounding happy 6 months ago.. usually using smileys in the posts and seemed to enjoy things. Now his posts are just official sounding with no personality. That happens when you complain all the time. People even complain about the language not being 100% accurate, or the MOTD having a spelling error... I mean, isnt it time to just give it all a rest? Ya, exactly. Give it a rest. Start thinking about yourself and not about CCP. They are a company not your girlfriend. If you're an ass to your girlfriend and she gets upset she can pout and sulk and wallow in her tears all she wants. However, CCP is a company and if they really are (as you suggest) getting tired of the playerbase "whining" I'm serious in saying that they don't deserve our monthly payment. On the other hand! I do NOT beleive this is the case. I really have a tough time thinking that a company lacks communication with their clients because they are mad at them. That would be highly unprofessional and extremely immature on their part. It is my beleif that they are hard at work making fixes/adjustments/expansions to the game and have little time to tell us what is going on. With that in mind, I expect to see new dev/community manager hirings after Kali. I'm sure the Public Relations, Human Resources, and Customer Service departments aren't comprised of total idiots. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Harisdrop Gallente RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.07 16:56:00 - [28] Answer: Thier game we play. The devs are still here in the forums and have always been. Players from others games have now joined "my" EVE and see the truth and the strength of CCP. They love it and I love them for loving it. Nothing has changed. The only perceived change is now 50k are posting on the forums and you dont get what you want done.... WHINE.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Harisdrop Answer: Their game we pay to play. Fixz0red ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Lardarz B'stard Amarr Out Of Exile	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:02:00 - [30] Edited by: Lardarz B''stard on 07/09/2006 17:03:45 I actually think they talk to us more than they used to. You can even notice it now on the forums as they have little gold bars on their posts. There are a lot more blogs, and they do interviews, eg on Eve TV etc. Spend any time on the chaos irc channel and they talk too. Previously, everything used to be communicated through Pann as I recall. Nowadays you get them all posting ballocks on the forums, which is a good thing in my opinion. There is also more communication about the issues they have with patches and the state of the server and such. Hammer and Valar seem more forthcoming with lots of techie stuff that I dont understand. I think they are doing a very good job of keeping the community involved etc. Eon magazine is a good example of a communication channel that didnt use to exist. If anything, there are many more players posting complete rubbish 55 times over. You can't expect them to respond to all of it. Join Out Of Exile Today
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:02:00 - [31] LUGAL MOP'N'GLO, your arrogance is astounding. EVE was created to be diferent from other MMO's and how they operate, if they wanted a successful business they could have made a drone similar to other MMO's. They didn't for the pure fact that they wanted to push the boundries and do something unique that a 'proper' business wouldn't touch with a barge pole, look at earth and beyond for example it was doing well still making money. Why did EA pull it? Probably to free resources to put in their dull, boring run of the mill games and give the professional service you so hungrily desire. EVE is like a hobby company more than anything else, if you cannot understand that then CCP does not need your sub ================================================
Erilias Ilthis Gallente Chronodynamics	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:04:00 - [32] I'm playing for 2 years and about 3 months now, and Ithildin has a point. While there is indeed a lot of pointless whining, it all holds some truth. As far as me concerns I saw it all change from the period when devs communicated with us, shared info when it was relevant as asked how things looked when they did this or that. It all changed to a period when we started getting more "boobies" and "devX was drunk on this or that occasion" than actual relevant answers. Adding to that, I spotted an increasingly saracstic tone in more and more replies. Today we're at a point we don't get a lot of practical info when it's more needed than ever. Eve is crowded and more crowded every week. I have the feeling it was once a mature game, slower paced, with more room for strategy and long term thinking (from the point of view of the player I mean). Nowadays, it all seems based on numbers, kills and pvp (actual battle I mean, not the kind of market pvp) and the devs seem to stimulate it more and more. The irony of this is that the game does not seem able to support it in terms of hardware and structure. I have the feeling the dev silence - yes I say silence, because face it, the blogs are not a lot more than we already know, or very short or extremely general- was a real conscience choice, not an evolution if you know what I mean. We need communication more than ever, and yet we get no solid info. Eg. while we know the petition queue is nuts, why can't we know what is being done about it, by when you want to have reduced the lot by that many cases. How are you going to do it ? etc. Same for the cluster and it's bad shape. Dragon, 2 fixes/patches haven't changed a bit, it' still lagging and fleet battles are impossible. Adding more yarrdware and resources is not going to cut it. What is actually being done, what are the targets, give us real info and manage your playerbase and especially the info you give them. give us things to speculate. Have Oveur post on what he thinks will be done in the future, what his ultimate ingame phantasies are... From a game where the players were included in the building process, we seem to have evolved towards a situation in which the devs have chosen their path and there's no changing that anymore. It has been said by many... we don't need new this or that or factional warfare. Fix the current situation please. We really don't need Eon, we don't wish for a cardgame. Put your time in Eve and game mechanics please.
Siri Blue Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:07:00 - [33] What I find shocking is that the Devs seem to not care about content gameplay issues... Many people enjoy interacting with NPCs in order to get missions and then getting rewards, climbing through ranks and such... Eve is VERY lacking in this regard and indtead of adding content, a lot has been removed with the dragon patch...and noone cares about fixing the remainders, adding acceptable replacements or at least giving an estimate on when the "good stuff" aka Kali will come... I know...to many this will sound like whining again... But neither on a petition about broken agents, a bug report, posting suggestions in the forums nor posting findings in the missions section there was any feedback at all... So whining in the general discussions section was the first and only thing that gave at least a reaction... And even then...the feeling remains that noone cares... Probably the devs are working on some new cool stuff like nicer graphics, better designs and all this...but they need to realise, THAT IS UNIMPORTANT! It is unimportant as long as so many things in the game are broken! I'd rather play a game with much worse graphics but a good content background... And no, there is no better game than Eve out there atm... But Eve could be so much better if the Devs worked on the important things first...and important things are what makes the customers happy. I'm done. Flame ahead...
Frash Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:08:00 - [34] I'm not sure if you have ever played another MMO before or during your EVE career, but Devs in the MMO industry are generally secretive. They hardly ever give any concrete news til its in a patch notes and being sent to the live server. Every game I've played they give vague answers to everything. Don't like EVE-Radio.com? Try ETN.FM or Afterhoursdjs.com
Garramon Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:16:00 - [35] I think it is funny about all the people complaining about how content patches and stuff take so long these days when Soon™ was coined before they even started playing the game TBH the only posts I read these days are ones started by people who have gained my respect OVER THE YEARS. Such as DigitalCommunist, Weirda, Pottsey, Ithilidin, Jade(Jasmine) Constantine and the devs of course. Ever notice the devs seem to turn up in these posts? There is a reason. As far as the devs not talking...well we used to have the IRC meeting with them back in the day, that was cool. I looked forward to reading the transcripts. Thinking back though... The blog didn't exist though, and I barely remember seeing them post on the forums. For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:17:00 - [36] EVE devs don't seem particularly inactive or uncommunicative compared to other games. Honestly, they get pretty decent marks for it compared to many. I think mostly you're just experiencing one of the costs of having a larger playerbase. If you have 10x as many players, then each one can only get 1/10th as much attention from the devs. If you're lucky, they've got a good filtering system, to pick the gems from the chaff among forum spew. If not, then I'm afraid its just part of the cost of progress.
Allan Robertson Gallente Trojan industries	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:20:00 - [37] An intresting post with an intresting question, I'm not that old a player, but old enough to remmeber some big changes. I used to enjoy the fourms with a place for constructive comments, it all started to change around the time the missile change happend. This was when torps could deal loads of dmg to anything even as small as a frig, I remmeber reading a load of moans and rants and people getting very angry. I still trust the Devs desisions but I really would like to know more information about what is up and coming in development and when and what is changed in the next patch, for example I'm still not clear on what will happen to insta jumps or cloaks, I heard they are looking to change them, but I've no information to go on. Lastly I think the two problems are CCP not giving out clear informaton on where they are going or what they are going to change, even those changes might be the right direction I just need to know more about it, secondly the EVE comunity is in the gutter, if EVE was a house the fourms/conunuty would be the toilet :(. it's only my opinion but the comunity barr all but some people is very negitive and agressive, This is why I don't post much as I used to some time ago, your OP stood out from the rest.
Epsilon 1	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:27:00 - [38] Have to agree with the OP poster here Had this feeling since RMR was deployed Originally by: Steven Gerrard Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
Garramon Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Siri Blue ...But Eve could be so much better if the Devs worked on the important things first...and important things are what makes the customers happy. I'm done. Flame ahead... What is important is very subjective. EVE is very open ended and I am sure every profession wants things extended in their personally style of play. In my personal style of play, nothing is really broken, so I would prefer the DEVs worked on content. If it wasn't for this forum, I would have no idea about issues with courier missions, POS warfare, etc. --> Side track Personally, if I could ask for one part of EVE to be changed/extended, I would want more skills added, so that I could advance my character down a more specific path. Something along the lines of Advanced Capacitor Regeneration and Advanced Engineering. I wanted to be a defensive specced character when I started the game, but I have had all engineering/mechanic at 5 since as long as I can remember. Now I find this exceptionally funny because of the amount of people on here that complain about there being too many skills, and that they hope the devs do not release more any time soon. See how subjective important is? For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
Siri Blue Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:33:00 - [40] I have to agree with Erilias Ilthis... And as for Garramon...yes, it is subjective... And I do not demand that they only work on what I find important (though atm they just ignore it)... There is much broken and much to be improved in the gameplay in Eve (especially content and storyline wise)...yet they work on new designs and graphics...that is what I meant...
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:34:00 - [41] Originally by: Auldare LUGAL MOP'N'GLO, your arrogance is astounding. EVE was created to be diferent from other MMO's and how they operate, if they wanted a successful business they could have made a drone similar to other MMO's. They didn't for the pure fact that they wanted to push the boundries and do something unique that a 'proper' business wouldn't touch with a barge pole, look at earth and beyond for example it was doing well still making money. Why did EA pull it? Probably to free resources to put in their dull, boring run of the mill games and give the professional service you so hungrily desire. EVE is like a hobby company more than anything else, if you cannot understand that then CCP does not need your sub My arrogance? Ummm okie dokie masta. EVE is most definately a unique game and does not cater to 'normal' MMO gamers. Why do you make the excuse that the reason CCP lacks communication with the player base is because they are not a 'proper' business? CCP is a company and thus conducts business. While their business and company alike can be different than others and stand alone in a realm that it rules there are still guidlines that they should be taking into consideration (as a business). I beleive it was your mistake to not read or misread the intent with which my posts were made. Its not my beleif that CCP is the worst customer orientated company in the world, I just think they could be doing alot better. Like so many posts on these forums, whines are usually followed with the simple answer "learn to adapt". Well, with the 30,000 players playing EVE nearly every night I think its time for CCP to adapt. I understand its a 'hobby company'. I even understand them wanting to stay that way. They can! On that note: One of the most precious things that small companies usually have going for them is superb customer service and a great relationship with their clients. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Alexis Machine Minmatar Gypsies	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:35:00 - [42] Originally by: Garramon TBH the only posts I read these days are ones started by people who have gained my respect OVER THE YEARS. Such as DigitalCommunist, Weirda, Pottsey, Ithilidin, Jade(Jasmine) Constantine and the devs of course. Ever notice the devs seem to turn up in these posts? There is a reason. Me too. And it's sad. I tried to read most of the posts.. but I just get angry and sad. Almost makes me wanna quit. Not the game. Not the devs. Not their designs I don't agree with, or any of that. The player base. This community makes me want to quit. Player base sucks now to be honest. We used to have such awesome debates about balancing the game and how to improve it on a fundamental level. Now.. blah. All I see are self centered whines. Crap. You guys make me cry.
Siri Blue Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:38:00 - [43] Its not just the whines Alexis Machine... Its also the cynical and agressive answers by anti-whiner-troll trolls that make many threads in eve o forums unbearable.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:39:00 - [44] I hear what you say Siri Blue, I am kinda from the other side on content and storyline myself though. I feel the history of eve etc shouldn't be in-game but more as fiction here on the website, unless all the content and storyline stuff was only possible as a group. Too much has catered to the solo player which is detracting from what Eve-online was originaly designed to be. Now I am not saying you are wrong and I am right, this is just a different point of view imho having to work with/against someone within eve should be the defining factor in every single aspect of eve ================================================
Shittake RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:41:00 - [45] Edited by: **take on 07/09/2006 17:41:44 I've been playing since the first week of release. and I disagree with you on a couple things. (1) You mention game balance. Since launch alot of new things have been added to the game. When you add things, you increase complexity. This means as new stuff is added to the game it will become increasingly more complex to balance mechanics so that things are not overly powerful or underly worthless. If new stuff wasn't added to the game then people would have left. I think the devs are working hard at balancing because we've seen alot of changes over many patches to better balance things out. (2) You say that the devs are not talking to us enough. But now they have things such as "In Development" and "On the Drawingboard" and "In Testing". These sections do give you a look at what's comming and what they are working on. While you may not like the EON magazine it is an additional channel of communications from them to us. So I think we are hearing MORE from them now than in the early days. Ithidin, I do feel differently about the game we play today compared to the game we played early on. Perhaps you do to. I remember those early days and they were lotsa fun, no doubt. But I believe (for the most part) that the game is better now. More ship options, more specialization options for you characters, etc etc. CCP is adding people and growing. The lack of communications that you wish to be corrected could be a side effect of the "growing pains" that CCP are experiencing. Give them time.
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:42:00 - [46] Originally by: Alexis Machine Originally by: Garramon TBH the only posts I read these days are ones started by people who have gained my respect OVER THE YEARS. Such as DigitalCommunist, Weirda, Pottsey, Ithilidin, Jade(Jasmine) Constantine and the devs of course. Ever notice the devs seem to turn up in these posts? There is a reason. Me too. And it's sad. I tried to read most of the posts.. but I just get angry and sad. Almost makes me wanna quit. Not the game. Not the devs. Not their designs I don't agree with, or any of that. The player base. This community makes me want to quit. Player base sucks now to be honest. We used to have such awesome debates about balancing the game and how to improve it on a fundamental level. Now.. blah. All I see are self centered whines. Crap. You guys make me cry. Among the threads that are filled with dirt there are many worth reading. There are an inordinate amount of good threads about how to fix instas. Kritsi's (sp?) 200km warp idea, another that was mentioned included the interm warp point (staging area if you will). There is a way to filter out all the crap, ignore it. If anything I've posted above makes you flustered, ignore it. Its what I do and I find many good discussions on the forums. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:42:00 - [47] Originally by: ***take Edited by: ***take on 07/09/2006 17:41:07 I've been playing since the first week of release. and I disagree with you on many things. (1) You mention game balance. Since launch alot of new things have been added to the game. When you add things, you increase complexity. This means as new stuff is added to the game it will become increasingly more complex to balance mechanics so that things are not overly powerful or underly worthless. If new stuff wasn't added to the game then people would have left. I think the devs are working hard at balancing because we've seen alot of changes over many patches to better balance things out. (2) You say that the devs are not talking to us enough. But now they have things such as "In Development" and "On the Drawingboard" and "In Testing". These sections do give you a look at what's comming and what they are working on. While you may not like the EON magazine it is an additional channel of communications from them to us. So I think we are hearing MORE from them now than in the early days. Ithidin, I do feel differently about the game we play today compared to the game we played early on. Perhaps you do to. I remember those early days and they were lotsa fun, no doubt. But I believe (for the most part) that the game is better now. More ship options, more specialization options for you characters, etc etc. CCP is adding people and growing. The lack of communications that you wish to be corrected could be a side effect of the "growing pains" that CCP are experiencing. Give them time. 1 question, do you mine?
Siri Blue Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:43:00 - [48] Edited by: Siri Blue on 07/09/2006 17:44:01 I do not disagree with you completely (Auldare)... There should be multi-player storyline content and I'd bet that is what factional warfare in Kali will be about. BUT I also think you should be able to experience nice storyline content on your own when you feel like it...for example relaxing an hour or two doing some PvE content in Eve after you came home from a long shift at work...when I am in this kinda mood I really don't want to have to cope with the **** of some PvP fanatic kids. I want choice. And I want to be able to chose from a variety of GOOD alternatives. Eve has all the potential for that! It just needs some more work and development...just sooner than later
Karunel Nuevos Horizontes	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:43:00 - [49] Quote: I think it is funny about all the people complaining about how content patches and stuff take so long these days when SoonÖ was coined before they even started playing the game Very Happy Got a winner. I really can't agree with the OP point, I think I can understand why he feels that way but I don't really think the devs communicate with us less than they used to, maybe they use other ways now, relying more on blogs, but there're still dev posts on threads that are interesting enough. Something to keep in mind too is that an expanded playerbase means everytime a dev posts the masses rush to the thread and start asking for the dev attention; that's probably one of the reasons why devs prefer to avoid forums if possible. Anyone mentioning the IRC dev chats as a better source of communication never attended one or forgot what was said in them. (Stuff like "yeah, player owned structures will be in in some weeks" -June 2003 )
Alexis Machine Minmatar Gypsies	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:44:00 - [50] Originally by: Siri Blue Its not just the whines Alexis Machine... Its also the cynical and agressive answers by anti-whiner-troll trolls that make many threads in eve o forums unbearable. That's true too.. I throw those in the same category as self centered whines. Probably not the best choice of words.. but I'm too much of a sad panda to think of a better way to put it.
Shittake RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:44:00 - [51] Originally by: Exiled One 1 question, do you mine? I mine, shoot people's ship, sell stuff, buy stuff, make stuff. I do a bit of everything in the game. What do you do?
Exiled One Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:45:00 - [52] Originally by: **take Originally by:** Exiled One 1 question, do you mine? I mine, shoot people's ship, sell stuff, buy stuff, make stuff. I do a bit of everything in the game. What do you do? Explains your opinion. You didn't experience EVE back in the good days.
Shittake RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Exiled One Originally by: **take Originally by:** Exiled One 1 question, do you mine? I mine, shoot people's ship, sell stuff, buy stuff, make stuff. I do a bit of everything in the game. What do you do? Explains your opinion. You didn't experience EVE back in the good days. I have played this game since the FIRST WEEK!!!
Coran Ordus Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:49:00 - [54] No disrespect to the OP, but I think the Devs are actually doing a pretty good job of communicating. Yeah, I bet it is different from back in the day, when they could interact more via threads and conversations, because of the smaller player base. Blogs are the only practical way at the moment, without repeating themselves in a dozen threads, or getting threads swamped in 'Oh, well, you commented on penguins, but while you're here, fix X'. But I work at a big company making a product, and we have forums. And I know we don't do a 10th of as good a job. It's a tricky business. Come out and promise things, and suddenly it's written in stone and quoted everywhere. You feel like you're walking on eggshells so that you don't get your buddy who decided that feature was too hard in trouble. I believe I have a good idea of what the general focus is in the future, what features are coming for the game just from reading blogs/posts. The one thing I do agree is that balancing-related commentary has been scarce, and I think somewhat needed (esp for the hot topics, ECM, Instas, stabs, combat range). But overall dev communication-wise... I have never, ever seen a company do so well and be so involved. Just remember, in the end there's only so many hours in the day. You can sit around talking about a thing, or you can get it done. Given the choice, I prefer the latter.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:53:00 - [55] Lugal, your last post makes more sense of your point of view. There is mainly 2 ways CCP can do their communication, 1. As informal with everyone adding their little bit voicing each Dev's opinion. This is the way it used to be, you could really understand what they were planning and what the future will be. This is the way they used to do it but sadly a lot of people were saying they were unprofessional and constantly whined about this that and the other, this most likely caused them to start using the next model 2. Formal vetoed posts, which are revised meeting after meeting before allowing to be posted. This gives professional posts which are clearly worded to prevent misconceptions and ultimately whines on the forums. but this adds time to 'official' posts being released and adds to the 'service over information' perception that is slowly happening. Maybe due to my line of work in the real life the whole 'they should just suck it up and act properly' makes me cringe but thats just the difference in our mentalities. I feel we all have a responsibility in what the Op has talked about, it's not just CCP it's every single group. be that the service or the service users ================================================
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:57:00 - [56] Siri Blue the single player content which you can do to just kick back and relax doing could be interesting to do but I would like to make sure that the bonus you get for completeing it could not have any great effect on your ship or your wallet. If the content allowed some kind of reward that was unique and only useable for the storyline stuff I would be all for it but this is touching on lvl4 missions and I don't wanna railroad the topic ================================================
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 17:58:00 - [57] Hmm, going back a bit. My concern is not that the devs aren't talking, but rather how and what they are saying. I'm fond of the odd jokes here and there, helps and so on. However, my concern is that the real changes and visions aren't communicated anymore, or at least not through open or up to date channels. Pann was before my time, or more accurately, Pann didn't post what I felt was interesting. I've never been to concerned for what most topics in the General forum is about (Pann has 80% of her posts in General, with the remaining spread mostly in New player Q&A and Corp/Alliance forums). What I've always been concerned for is issues such as game balance and what will be new in EVE. TomB used to do most of those things. Remember his thred about the turret tracking nerf? It was way ahead of time before patch, plus he read and commented in it. ****take (oh, mushroom whom is nerfed by forum filters), I'm not asking to partake in game balance, I'm asking that devs state their visions, communicate their intended changes, and do so a bit ahead of time. Balancing becomes more complex as more stuff is added, but writing an up-to-date patch notes does not become more complex, nor is posting and polling the player base. Had they communicated before the release of T2 ammo, that misstake would not have been commited, for instance. If you refere to my original post, you will find that I've got issues with the "In development" and "In testing" sections. Additionally, a channel that you have to pay for is not precisely a good channel. The information released in EON about, for example, constellation sovreignty is more or less exclusive - I've not seen that information anywhere else, and it is more than a little worrying (in a strictly negative sense) what they intend to do with gates (and thus PvP) in such systems. But the point is, I don't feel like they are keeping me informed anymore. It is announcements at the latest hour that is the game of today, with information ahead of time being the name of yesterday. - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:00:00 - [58] Early on I guess CCP were making the game they wanted, and we tagged along for the ride. Pretty much everyone, especially those from the beta, knew what Eve was about, and they shared the vision. We wanted to make Eve the game the Devs wanted it to be, and whilst we didn't always agree on the exact path we were all trying to get to the same destination. Now Eve is more than that. It is more diverse, and interests a wider playerbase. They don't share the vision, mostly because they were never part of it. That isn't anyone's fault, it is really an expected consequence of growth. Now, many old players, myself probably included, feel that somehow we are redundant. Worse, we feel that "the vision" has become an illusion, lost in the mists of mass appeal. We are no longer a small group of people, devs and players alike, proud of the unpopular niche we lived in; and we miss that. Our "chats" have become one-sided lectures to the masses. The question is, what would we rather have? A small, unpopular, but desirable, niche game as Eve was; or the compromised success it is now? CCP deserve success. Unfortunately for us oldies, product > passion. *Disclaimer: I know some devs are still very passionate about Eve, and rightly so. However, it is definately my impression that CCP no longer have the conviction to steer Eve back on course. I guess when you had nothing you had nothing to lose. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
LUGAL MOP'N'GLO	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Auldare Lugal, your last post makes more sense of your point of view. There is mainly 2 ways CCP can do their communication, 1. As informal with everyone adding their little bit voicing each Dev's opinion. This is the way it used to be, you could really understand what they were planning and what the future will be. This is the way they used to do it but sadly a lot of people were saying they were unprofessional and constantly whined about this that and the other, this most likely caused them to start using the next model 2. Formal vetoed posts, which are revised meeting after meeting before allowing to be posted. This gives professional posts which are clearly worded to prevent misconceptions and ultimately whines on the forums. but this adds time to 'official' posts being released and adds to the 'service over information' perception that is slowly happening. Maybe due to my line of work in the real life the whole 'they should just suck it up and act properly' makes me cringe but thats just the difference in our mentalities. I feel we all have a responsibility in what the Op has talked about, it's not just CCP it's every single group. be that the service or the service users Well I suppose CCP is in a bit of a pickle. The way I see it they are on the dividing line between a small and medium sized corporation. More importantly is the number of players (really that determines the size of your corporation). So they are torn. 1) Proper business-like posts that are drivel, drab, and avoid conflict? OR 2) Personable, fun, playerbase oriented posts that address issues, are up for debate and may cause conflicting opinions among the playerbase and developers? ...Problem is, they can't do both. Right now they are sitting on the fence imho. The older players are feeling a difference in their attitudes because they felt that they had a relationship with the developers. However, with more users CCP had to modify their business model to make it 'safer' and avoid confrontation with the playerbase. Just my .02 on that. Note that I could be completely wrong here. ~~~~~~~~~ I wish my lawn was EMO so it would cut itself. I approve of this message.
Siri Blue Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:11:00 - [60] Avon, that is exactly why I quit my last online game...and eventually joined Eve... I was thrilled in the beginning... And while I am only 9 months old now I am beginning to experience the boundaries... And what you just posted...it makes me sad to hear such things about Eve
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:15:00 - [61] Nah your post does bring up an interesting point of view Lugal. As you say it, CCP do seem to be kinda lost right now in how they should communicate these days. I personally would like the personal approach again but more emphasis put on that it's just the way things are run here, don't like it there is no point moaning. Having it all professional would imho break the relationship the players and devs have had for a long time and in the end alienate CCP too much ================================================
Mervent Caldari RONA Deepspace Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:20:00 - [62] I really miss the "23". They would ***** slap most posters who whined or did not know what they were talking about, and at the sametime, inform you of the truth/fact, and you as the reader would learn something.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:23:00 - [63] Heh heh they prob got burnt out maybe we could start the '2300' and start keeping the whiners in line for CCP ================================================
Syzdothyx	Posted - 2006.09.07 18:59:00 - [64] This is the most satisfying, mature and informative thread I've read on these forums. As a newcomer of 1 year playing, I've always found the forums full of ranters and whiners. Perhaps this thread contains an interesting solution to the information gap between devs and players. Obviously you veteran players are experienced in dealing with the assorted personalities present in this community..as well you have a keen understanding of gameplay and to some extent what goes on behind the game. You have also spoken at one time to the devs themselves. Perhaps a new forum position with "Information Translator" might work both as a way to satsify your need to know what the devs are really doing, and the whiners to understand the game. It would mean the devs give interviews to you the mature,level-headed and experienced players. And you would in turn field it out to us. It would mean more work for the forum mods, but at least it would be constructive posting to begin with.
Hakera	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:07:00 - [65] Hmm interesting topic the past is. I think the lyrics from wear sunscreen are appropiate; Quote: Accept certain inalienable truths, prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old, and when you do youÆll fantasize that when you were young prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders. Respect your elders. or to change it to eve lyrics Quote: Accept certain inalienable truths, patches will come, devs will philander, you too will get bored, and when you do youÆll fantasize that when you were noob patches were reasonable, devs were noble and noobs respected their elders. Respect your elders. Anyway, imo, the only things that have changed is that we are now a smaller number of voices trying to shout above a louder and noiser din. Not because there is louder shouting, but because there is more people doing so. In the past, say 2003, I would guess there was less than 1000 forum users, of which say 500 were active and present consistantly. It was much easier to get heard and much slower paced, new threads did not come as fast as they do now, it was easier to get opinions heard and devs had a much easier time tracking topics. Now ofc, you have only to look at the ships & modules forum to see the first two pages pre-occupied with a whole raft of silly suggestions and questions, nevermind general discussion where everyone now seems obliged to post about anything, no matter how insignificant, under the false belief they have a greater chance of being heard here than they would in the appropiate forum eg features & ideas forum. Eve is better imo than it was back then as a game, albeit we are stuck with game mechanics and features that cannot be really changed because they have always been that way, no matter how imbalanced, the sympton of creating everything from concept rather than experience, wheras I am sure Eve 2 will be much better and balanced from the beginning having built the foundations and been tested thouraghly here. As for your opinions on pathc notes, general information, as a hoover of information in my past life at Eve-I when rss feeds didnt exist. I think its more or less the same still, patch notes have always missed some information and devs ideas have always posted where they felt neccessary. I support the fact devs dont need to respond to every post just to say they have read it as it opens you to be obliged to provide comments on it. Hak
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:16:00 - [66] I wonder if Chribba (or CCP?) could provide statisics on dev posts over time since launch? I would guess that the number of dev posts has basically stayed the same, however thread "turnover" due to post counts have increased with the playerbase. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Hathi	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:26:00 - [67] What's changed? We have. Once it would be "I've been blown up" response would be useful advice, and that would be about it. Now it's "Arrggh I've been ganked, the griefers..." and the response "Go back to WoW", "insert leet speak" or "pwnd". Once upon a time cruisers were BIG, BS rarely seen and no T2 anything. You could do what you wanted, no (or little) name calling, or "My way is best, you are wrong". It was fun. Now I'm not so sure. I don't PvP (fight), never saw the fun, no reason to stop others. I like missions, or just pottering about; why do people seem hellbent on stopping that? Noobs could ask, and get help. Wonder why that's changed? I rarely post in here, others have more experience (I've only been here 2 1/2 years), are more articulate and alot quicker. Starting to wonder why I'm actually posting here, or (in most cases, exceptions DO, thankfully, still exist) reading the drivel that seems to fill most threads.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:34:00 - [68] Originally by: Hllaxiu I wonder if Chribba (or CCP?) could provide statisics on dev posts over time since launch? I would guess that the number of dev posts has basically stayed the same, however thread "turnover" due to post counts have increased with the playerbase. TomB, for example That's Chribba's search engine and feature - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:35:00 - [69] Hathi, I think the informative posts stopped because, as with all things, the way you interact with people changes over time. If you have a good exp in taking part with a well discussed topic it's all good an you pass that standard to others. BUT if you get one bad response it does taint how you reply from then on, you get a lil bit more defensive. and then this builds over time with every negative response you get. In the end it all ends the same, if you see a post and know nothing good will come will adding suggestions and advising (and dont' aggree with the op's point of view exactly) you just automatically reply with something quick and negative i.e, 'Go play wow' All we, as forums posters, need to do is reset our current point of view. reply to posts again in a well informed manner and as a whole shout down the guys who don't add anything to the forums but negativity. but thats easier to say than do. ================================================
Zissou 5 November	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:37:00 - [70] I started playing just after release in 2003 and I think EVE's come a long way since then; I don't think anyone would disagree. One thing I do miss is the weekly dev chats. It was good to read what was going on and see the devs responding to players questions about bugs etc. It seems that after the original Morkt Drak(t) left, (someone explain the name change for me btw) that sort of stopped. I think it would be good to get it back in some fashion (monthly?). Now I have to admit I've done my fair share of whining and the fact that I'm still waiting for my first T2 blueprint to drop from an R&D agent is a HUGE source of pain for me. But I don't think theres generally so much to complain about now as there was when I started playing - anyone remember, 'jumping, black screen, black screen, sound of explosion, black screen, black screen, cloning station'? That used to be how you knew the system you just jumped into was camped! It would be nice to get a bit more info from the devs sometimes but I'd sacrifice this for content patches like RMR and Kali anyday. One of the criticisms the devs were getting in 2004 was the lack of content patches - seems like they sorted that out.
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:47:00 - [71] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/09/2006 16:34:30 Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO As a playerbase should we really sit down and think... Man, maybe I should just not worry at all about where my $15 a month is goin. Dude, it's a game that WE PAY FOR. It's their job to provide us with information. Nope. Its their job to provide a game. You're both wrong, their job is to provide what the customer wants, the customer defines these terms by deciding to pay or not. If the customer is paying, then CCP are doing their job satisfactorily in the eyes of the consumer. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Suze'Rain	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:49:00 - [72] Edited by: Suze''Rain on 07/09/2006 19:50:53 I've been an acive member on these forums - and their predecessors - for something approaching 6 years now. The difference in attitudes is incredible - the hostility and venom people spit out nowadays is awful compared to then. the "**** off to WOW" type attitudes, the "STFU Noob" mentality. Yes, we have a game now, unlike all those yeras ago, and yes, there are many areas which are'nt satisfactory. if we'd thought we'd get 30,000 subscribers, yet alone 30,000 concurrent subscribers when we started talking about the ground-breaking mmo back then, we'd have been in a pipe-dream. Eve has not grown for the better in many ways, and it's a terrible shame that with popularity has come hostility in the forums. Frankly, I can't blame the devs for having taken steps away from the forums as a result of our behavior.
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.09.07 19:50:00 - [73] I've been playing since 2k3 (I think) and the forums have really changed for the worst. When CCP would suggest a change a while back, people would discuss, enquire and generally be curious. These days you have people going absolutely ape**** over ships which haven't yet been tested or even released. There is a shed load of flack heading towards the devs atm, where in the past there used to be a lot more respect floating about. I remember also the occasional dev chat which I don't think we've had this year. The community is getting bigger and it's not for the better. The boards are so full of trolls and whiners it's really quite concerning. In the good old days you'd go into low sec with the acknowledgement you may get you're arse kicked and now people seem to get upset when any little thing happens. Devs don't chat as much as they used to and I don't blame them. What used to be a great little community has become a pit for arsehats, morons and trolls. That thread about the tier 3 bs's will always remain in my mind the blazing example of what the eve community is bocomming...or maybe it's more to do with the amount of people who have access to the internet shrugs. Lets have player Quality Control! (that is a joke, for any morons who don't know any better)
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:02:00 - [74] Ah yes, good old dev chats. Someone with a bit higher Dev Connections and IRC Operations skills than me really should start those up again. One of the most entertaining and up to date information about the devs' short and long term visions and ideas could be found in those. The questions were seldom all you'd like to hear, or the ones you really wanted answers to, but there'd always be a few that caught your eye and fancy "never thought of that, that's a great question". - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Wanoah Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:17:00 - [75] I have fond memories of new content being heralded by news pieces, event arcs and chronicles. Over the last year it's been: dreadnaughts plonk carriers plonk outposts plonk TITANS plonk shiny stuff! plonk.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:22:00 - [76] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 07/09/2006 20:22:21 Originally by: Ithildin Originally by: Hllaxiu I wonder if Chribba (or CCP?) could provide statisics on dev posts over time since launch? I would guess that the number of dev posts has basically stayed the same, however thread "turnover" due to post counts have increased with the playerbase. TomB, for example That's Chribba's search engine and feature It'd be unfair to compare TomB 2003-2004 to 2005-2006 as he no longer has the same job - Tuxford has it. There are also far more members of the dev team, so thats why I asked for statistics for the entire class of people "devs" - perhaps an option to exclude the community managers from those statistics. (as for Tuxford vs TomB - Tuxford is averaging 1.0 post/day since he started on the forum, TomB averages .95 over the period that he was the nerfbat guy) BTW: WE WANT MORE DEV CHATS!!!! --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.09.07 20:37:00 - [77] I think the OP is spot on, so is Epsilon regarding changes to the game after RMR. Maybe the (original)devs are just tired, god knows how many hours they work per year. Maybe they feel that they 'made it'(and they certainly did!) and are handing over more work to other and never devs who dont have the same way of thought? All we can do is wait and see I guess. Recruitment
Paul Castrin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.07 21:50:00 - [78] Originally by: Garramon As far as the devs not talking...well we used to have the IRC meeting with them back in the day, that was cool. I looked forward to reading the transcripts. Thinking back though... The blog didn't exist though, and I barely remember seeing them post on the forums. I was just thinking of the IRC days too. I too never got the chance to attend one but loved reading the transcripts. The give and take, the shear amount of information in those chats (some real some inferred), was what made the devs feel more a part of the gamescape than anything else. But then maybe that is why the OP feels that the level of communication has changed. There is no doubt the content has but in a universe that has grown 300% since I've been on I think the devs are just tired of constantly defending each comment they make. It used to be far more casual and fun to talk to them. Now ever post they make there are those that feel they have to demand to be heard by them and kneel to their $14.95 they spend to play here. So I doubt it's as much fun as it used to be for them. If personal experience means anything I know that people hate doing things they don't find fun and/or interesting. The habit of devs posting in blogs now I think is an outgrowth of all this. A sort of defense mechanism where in they can post what they feel and not be directly attacked for it. Oh sure the blogs are linked in the forums but remember when the blogs had a comments section UNDER the blog themselves? Gone now so if people flame them they can just easily ignore it and focus on following the path they set out in the blog itself. This is not a dig at this evolution in communication but just to point out that indeed the way as well as the amount (per the OP) that the devs communicate to us has changed ... mostly for the worse. We need only look around here to see why.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:35:00 - [79] I have been around since... well, I have forgotten that, and yes this is a main character, proberly the longest one who have ever stayed active in the "noob" corps. Doesn't matter, to me NOTHING has changed, especially in regard to the forums complaints. With the introduction of the regular blogs communication with the playerbase has never been better. And EVE is still far superior game play vise to any other MMO out there and that is all that matters. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Alisha Retaris Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.07 22:57:00 - [80] Well I Have been Around since B4 the Open Beta and I can honestly say that the "whine" factor has increased exponentialy in the past year. IMO the devs have been posting less because of the "Gimmie Now or I'll cry" attitude of 80% of the people who post on the forums. I personally am sick of it. Adapt to the current game or leave! quit the Damm whining like a 2 year old. In the past yes the devs comunicated more with us but you didn't have all the whining complaining ect from the player base that you do now. EvE unlike other MMOG's is in constant development with new content that is FREE (omg imangine that). Games Like DAOC charge you for the additional content in addition to the monthly subscription fee. Devs ask (not as frequent as they used to) what we wan't to see in the game (not likely to happen with other MMOG's) and to date 90% of what was promised to come has been acheived along with stuff never imanged upon conception. So to put it Bluntly. Quityour*****in.
DropZone 187	Posted - 2006.09.07 23:09:00 - [81] Originally by: Laythun time are different. the eve-o forums used to be a source of knowledge and a place to talk constructively about problems. But recently....its just whine whine moan moan by all the wannabe bedroom gamers that theink there experts on server systems. Its a shame. when i joined it was great, the forums were reverred and you'd dare not post on them unless you have a constructive thing to say. Maybe its down to the explosion in numbers, i dont know, but i see a lot of people (expecially new people) thinking these boards are for general whinage about the game. and its sad, the newer community (not all) is letting the game down. Letting everyone down. Today i see a post about a retriever being popped in 0.4, i mean W T F, was that thread worthy? i dont think so. people these days seem to want to whine and have stuff changed instead of still believing in CCP's vision. they may not get it right all the time, but whining and hitting the boards with any little problem WILL never be the solution. Quite honestly i dont blame the devs for not showing up on the forums as much, i mean if you scan the top 20 threads, gurantee most are whines, with no constructive criticism. Its a shame. QFT. I honestly this this is the best post in the thread. Even if I dislike the likes of some greifers, they still uphold the spirit of the game which has made it so unique. For that they deserve the respect of all players (and a round at the bar if Eve gets popular enough to warrant a super convention) who respect the game values and what to see it progress. Unfortunately the influx of players from less respectful mmos has introduced quite a bit of complaining that worked for them on their last mmo to get them everything they wanted inturn ruining that game. There is so much CCP does for the player community that is different from everywhere else. Eve TV, tournaments, active participation in forums, etc are all things that we all enjoy and are unfortunately taking for granted.
Sharupak	Posted - 2006.09.08 00:30:00 - [82] Couldnt disagree more! In the begining, they talked about more ships, space stations, missions that worked, Hell If you remember, 90% of the loot you picked up on a mission was either completely useless and couldnt be sold in the market. 0.0 was a joke to anyone flying cruiser or more. In fact, rats in 0.0 only chance to beat you was if your 30 minutes on the server were up and everyone was going to get kicked off at the same time! Just about all that is fixed and the game that CCP told us we were getting is here! They are getting alot more players now and I am sure they are busy trying to handle it, thats all.
Auldare Soundless Storm	Posted - 2006.09.08 01:04:00 - [83] Sharupak, it's not about The content within EVE read the ops post. We are discussing about the way CCP communicated and how it has changed this past year ================================================
Lazuran	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:08:00 - [84] For the perceived non-responsiveness of the devs on the forum, there is a simple explanation: the number of players has grown faster than the number of devs, so they cannot reply as often to individual questions/threads anymore. As for the stagnation in development - it may be blamed on the scaling issues, which CCP doesn't have under control yet, but I guess most people also would like bugs fixed first. The fanboys on the forum disgust me - they should get a life, they're so much in denial of everything that they should seek out medical help for their addiction. ;-) "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:45:00 - [85] In the year I've been playing, I've seen the ammount of info we are given INCREASE. But you know what has increase far more? The ammount of whining, ***ing, and players who can't ever be satisfied. Remember when the band of bloggers started, and there was a week pause or so? People FREAKEd. Every time I saw a 'OMG WE GET NO INFO CCP *** HATES US' thread during that time, I wanted to do very mean things to that character, and rip them a new *** via a forum post. I did that only once though, and coincidentally, I have 1 forum warning, but it was worth it. Why are you ***ing about EON, saying it's junk, then saying how they don't make enough for more than 10% of players? That's like saying that HACs suck, and CCP should seed 50 more BPOs for each of them. What information is only in EON? I remember seeing the new ship models before corpmates who ordered EON (since the pack was posted on this website). You may think the devs talk less, but you fail to realize those days of 7k being HUGE are gone, and have been since before I started august of last year. There are more players, and more ground for them to cover, more employees for them to guuide, and more work for them to do. The information may not be as 'personal', but it's still there, and as I've already said, we get more info now than I remember seeing when I started a year ago. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.08 07:49:00 - [86] Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO Our monthly payment entitles us to play a game. Other things can/should be expected from a company that wishes to keep its clients around. Are you playing a game? You are? shut the hell up then, or point to me where in the TOS/EULA it says you can demand information from CCP on a regular basis. If you don't like the 'lack' of information, you're SOL as far as MMOs go. You can expect whatever the hell you wantm but that doesn't mean you get it. I can expect to win the lotto if I play, but that won't make it happen. Time devs spend chatting with us is time they don't spend working on the game. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.08 08:00:00 - [87] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 08/09/2006 08:05:08 Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Alyssa Keliaster Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.09.08 09:09:00 - [88] I remember...a long time ago, when missiles exploded on roids and Battleship were rare. When getting blown up was just that, not a chance for someone to spam you with "I kiiled you so yo is cr*p!!". When the forums were full of 'conversations' and not arguments or even ceaselessly censored (why put the word in if you know its going to be censored?) slagging matches. I remember...taking risks to glean that little more cash out of missions. Running gatecamps (before instalocks/pops). I remember talking to people in system, just cause they were there. I remember ganging with complete strangers because we could, and it was more fun to work together. I remember...playing a game for fun. A lot of that seems to have gone now. Anyone know where it went? ------------------------------------- Inhale....Kill....Exhale Proud Lieutenant of the Hadean Drive Yards Sign up to The Yards HERE
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.08 12:44:00 - [89] Before you ask the question why the devs seem to communicate less you could ask yourself why. Together with many new players there came many new *ssholes. And a large portion seem to be attracted by the forums. Their criticism isn't constructive but plain egocentric and childish. And pherhaps in the old days the devs could have IRC sessions because a smaller group liked to talk with them. But now with that many people it's simply not possible anymore. Pherhaps the working pressure on the devs has increased so much that they cannot afford to hang out and chat up to us. Taking too much friggin time. I guess if you wanna know more stuff you simply will have to get involved. Either go to the Fanfest or team up as a bughunter. And read up as much as possible with the blogs. When it comes to patchnotes and releases I agree 100% that it should be as informative as possible so that everyone has the same advantage when it comes to knowing about vital parts of the game. And its good fun to know about whats happened with the patch anyway. Good old times never will come back but expecting things to change for the better by itself is too easy. To help change it for the better actually works faster.
Sharupak	Posted - 2006.09.08 13:04:00 - [90] Originally by: Auldare Sharupak, it's not about The content within EVE read the ops post. We are discussing about the way CCP communicated and how it has changed this past year I know, I think they are just super busy right now...they are sort of remarketing this game if you have noticed. We are getting a steady increase of players...I think they are handleing that and just havent gotten on top of it yet. These guys are pretty small! They dont have the resources like SOE or Blizzard! I just wanted to point out that even though they arent communicating much lately, they are fixing and improving the game. Which is more than you can say for SOE games! Thats all.
Karunel Nuevos Horizontes	Posted - 2006.09.08 14:56:00 - [91] Quote: The difference in attitudes is incredible - the hostility and venom people spit out nowadays is awful compared to then. the "**** off to WOW" type attitudes, the "STFU Noob" mentality. You mean, like when back in early 2002 a guy came along who was not exactly good at spelling and created a corporation named "Megacorp" if memory serves right and he was flamed to hell and back? While I generally agree with the oldies in this post and I also miss the good old days sometimes, I think many of you are suffering from selective memory. For example, talking about the game itself, it's easy to remember how entire corporations (Das Paragon comes to mind) left in early beta because the game at that time was hardly similar to what the expectations had created in people's minds. So, while I agree CCP's not perfect and it probably has been forced to make some compromises because of EVE's popularity, let's not forget that EVE wasn't all roses back in the day.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.09.08 16:14:00 - [92] I'm very glad for the many replies, as well as the constructive debate regarding the nature of people posting on the forums, but I'd also like to remind people that foul language and personal attacks aren't what this topic is about, so do not use it please. Now, I am aware of selective memory, and I know that the thing with selective memory is that you won't be aware it's affecting yourself. Memory is a fickle thing among the best of us at best. I do feel that the content of the information has decreased, although it's appeal has not. It is difficult to communicate feelings properly, but I feel something is missing. Also, again I wish to add that I am very concerned that EON may become an information channel, this is very volatile since it doesn't reach many players at all. Contributing to this is that giving essential and exclusive information to the magazine is a sure way of increasing it's value and appeal, but I wish to raise a warning flag that this is not a good way to go for everyone who are, for one reason or other, unable to acquire an EON magazine. - Base insurance payout: 40% of ship base price Platinum cost: 33% of ship base price Platinum payout: 100% of ship base price Ship base prices can be found in CCP's Item Database.
Paul Castrin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.09.08 16:18:00 - [93] I think the over all factor, and many have said it already, is the noise to signal ratio has gone way up. Substantively the info that the devs have been putting out has been as good if not better than it ever was. But the amount of useless posts and the reactions of those new to EVE in regards to things not to their liking has caused a general retreat of the Devs from the more interactive methods of communication. The other factor is that they simply have much more to do and less time to devote to lurking on forums or conducting hours long IRC meetings. Nature of the beast that EVE has become IMHO. Now don't get me wrong, I'm hard down on EVE and still recommend it to all I hear looking for a solid scifi MMOG. Or heck, just some MMOG they can really sink their teeth into. I'm just saying that I see where the OP is coming from and the reasons are there. It's not the devs fault per say but the outgrowth of EVE becoming just what they wanted it to be. For good or ill, EVE has grown to be many factors larger than it was 2-3 years ago. When you grow as much as EVE has, you find the intimacy that you once had with the developers a casualty of that success.

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.09.08 16:37:00 - [94] Thread cleaned. Please keep your replies polite, constructive and flame-free. -Jacques' forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website! Want to be an EVE-Online forum moderator? click here!

Karunel Nuevos Horizontes	Posted - 2006.09.08 17:37:00 - [95] Quote: nd I know that the thing with selective memory is that you won't be aware it's affecting yourself. Good comeback. Still, I think that while CCP ways of communicating may have changed, we still have a healthy and un-heard of for most other mmogs level of communication with the devs. I'm an optimistic person.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden	Posted - 2006.09.08 18:25:00 - [96] Maybe they just can't do evrything everyone wants... I heard a lot (and told a lot of) "me wants more" things : more information, more stability, more graphics, more this, more that... Hey it's a game made by mens, I think they already do all what they can do. They are doing a bad job now. Each time they try a thing they get... more whining. We should all ask them to take one full month of vacation now, rely on ourselves, get patient one month and voila. Dev team refueled and ready to smile and agree at our "more-more" requests. :)
Yello1	Posted - 2006.09.08 19:36:00 - [97] Originally by: Jim McGregor Of course the devs arent going to feel like talking to them/us. Thats a total cop out. Its when the players are whining that the Devs are MOST needed in the forums, to soothe frustration, dispute false statements and hold out the hope for better things to come, with discussions between the Devs and the players on what those things should be. It makes the players feel like they are a part of the process and thus less frustrated with whats happening. And even if that fails, it gives a counter balance to the whining to make those who are reading rather than posting get a more balanced perspective on whats going on in game. The MMOG I have played the longest is one where the Devs make the community feel like a part of the team by their constant and welcoming presence on the forums. Its a good thing. And if that was here and is now lost, thats not. Quote: Yes, Im THAT Yello1
Athren Soulsteal Gallente Orion Faction	Posted - 2006.09.08 20:09:00 - [98] Edited by: Athren Soulsteal on 08/09/2006 20:12:04 All right I admit I am jaded but actually the devs are communicating as well as they can. I believe that they are commenting less for several reasons. 1 There is less to comment on. Ok anyone that been here for more than 3 years knows that Kali is not new content but CCP is finely supplying the original promised content plus a few enhancements. Come on people, how much more they can tell us, itÆs like if you bought a house then 4 years later as the contractor is finishing the house, you canÆt complain that he is not giving you the same amount of information as when construction started. Usually early on you know what you are getting itÆs just a matter of time to be provided it with the finished project before making further announcements. 2. They are making sure that stuff is working before mentioning it. We have been told what will be released with Kali do we really need to be informed of every step. Using the house example, would you want the contractor to inform you: Day 1 we have framed the bed room. Day 2 we put in the electric and como lines. Day 3 we put on the drywall. Etcà No all the Devs need to tell us is, ôok we have RE workingö. What we do not need is ôReverse is in the game if you know where to lookö because that will just jade us after the first year. They should not inform us of where in the process anything is they should only inform us when it is being added. (The earliest would be when itÆs on the test server so we could see the skill reqs but no sooner) Quote: WoW for example... Ummm hello (Most immature playerbase in the world)!!! Do you see how many dev posts there are in their forums? Nope. Its their job to provide a game. Well I'm telling you that a good way to captivate your paying customers is to form and maintain a relationship with them. Otherwise they feel neglected and leave. I believe you are confusing forum base with player base. WOW has a great player base, you canÆt run down a road without being buffed or healed by strangers that happen by. You can not compare WOW players with EVE players as a blanket statement. Yes I have a Wow account and I had an EVE account since beta, I have run across more immature players in EVE than I have in WOW, but thatÆs for a differing discussion. Yes a lot of the forums Boys forget that we pay to play and what were are paying for the continuous addition of content. The difference between playing a game and paying to play a game is that the game you donÆt have to pay to play will be static which means that you will get to ôend gameö eventually. Players leave for several reasons, while not forming a relation ship with them may be one I believe that the reason the average EVE player only lasts 8 months is because of lack of content. It doesnÆt matter how much they talk to the player base if the game is the same now as it was 8 months ago then who cares, after about 6 months you realize you are simply repeating your actions. Sure you can try and switch things up, I have over 60 ships and will fly them all just to try and change the routine, but in the end without new content players are better off just taking a break until a new patch(with content is released). Quote: Early on I guess CCP were making the game they wanted, and we tagged along for the ride. Pretty much everyone, especially those from the beta, knew what Eve was about, and they shared the vision. QFT but I would add the caveat that there were several visions from holding the global market because you had created a product to holding a system by the strength of your corp. Sadly those original visions are not even a blip on the radar anymore. The Devs not providing as much information as they used to, is not a problem because it is better to have quality information instead of a quantity of posts that are no more than ideas that will never be implemented. Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE. I wish I could fit all the Quote
ArcticShadow Gallente Rome SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.08 20:24:00 - [99] TomB used to reply to tons of topics on the ships and moduals fourm, but then as the players grew increasingly hostile to every change, more and more people started insulting him and crying so much that he simply stopped posting. I do not balme him, you should see how he was treated for trying to balance the game. Also about a year ago when I was doing the Sansha 10/10 complex there were massive issues with the background casuing lag, and client sync problems. Where one client would show player x 10km from you, and player x's client shows you 30km away, and both of you are accually on the warp gate, but cant use it. Anyway, Oveur was around and he came into the complex and took some notes on what was happening. I also have played with Pan, who was the community manager before Kieron. Back then Pan would regulary do chat events with the players in IRC channels. I also remember there was a song about her, and that her 16 year old son heard the song about spanking Pan and something. But yes they used to be more vocal with us, but its our own damn fault for being so whining and hostile that they are more distant. --- ArcticWolf, member of Eve since February, 2003. My Story

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