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Coby Descent
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.08 22:57:00 -
[121]
Wish I'd been around to see that. Glad to hear the conflict continues smack-free 
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dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.08 23:04:00 -
[122]
Edited by: dalman on 08/09/2006 23:12:24
Originally by: Coby Descent Wish I'd been around to see that. Glad to hear the conflict continues smack-free 
To see what? The node-crash? Cause that was really all ppl saw in the lag.
/me ponders if he should petition the 273 rounds of faction ammo that has magically dissappeared.
load other ammo during warpin fire one round server goes boom find yourself with the old ammo type magically in guns and the one you loaded just gone   
Oh, and this server performance really is bad. Hard to call it 'huge'; We had 60-70 pilots, and local was at 160-something (dunno how many of those were active unity/iss/whatever). It's really embarassing that the server can't handle that when it's kind of a 'small' engagement for what's usually 'required' by the stupid POS mechanics  Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |

Audrea
Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.09.08 23:15:00 -
[123]
Yeah, seems that really since Blood patch, lag only gets worse and worse. If before Dragon, 400+ local was usually laggy, now its under 200 and already laggy 
PS: So did CCP reimburse the dread loss? or did they just say 'We have no logs showing any problems'? lol ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE
All posts are my personal opinions.  |

Ange1
Gallente The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.09.08 23:18:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Ange1 on 08/09/2006 23:18:41
I believe the Dread died to pure firepower, probably would've died lagged or not. Could be wrong though.
The Establishment is at your service...
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dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.08 23:26:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Ange1 Edited by: Ange1 on 08/09/2006 23:18:41
I believe the Dread died to pure firepower, probably would've died lagged or not. Could be wrong though.
The argumentation for re-imbursement on that would be;
The unity/iss guys had all activated their stuff on the dread before lag struck. Without lag, our fleet could swiftly have taken out much of the ships/fighters activated on the dread, to a level where it could tank the damage. Now we couldn't lock or do anything.
I'd expect a big 'NO!' stamp on a petition responce though :/
Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |

Mangold
Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.09.08 23:30:00 -
[126]
You had a fleet defending the dread? I never saw that. We had another dread in structure before the server died.
Only winner here is lag.
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.08 23:48:00 -
[127]
Originally by: dalman
The argumentation for re-imbursement on that would be;
The unity/iss guys had all activated their stuff on the dread before lag struck. Without lag, our fleet could swiftly have taken out much of the ships/fighters activated on the dread, to a level where it could tank the damage. Now we couldn't lock or do anything.
I'd expect a big 'NO!' stamp on a petition responce though :/
I can confirm that ISS experienced huge lag on warp in to the POS. It personally took me several minutes to load, weapon activations took 30 seconds. All of our gang members experienced this. I only got a few rounds off on the Dread we called primary.
I understand the lag was about equal on both sides. Its a shame.
However, we assigned nearly 100 fighters to that dread. A dread in seige mode CANNOT tank that kind of DPS. Yes, the lag was bad on both sides, but the sheer DPS on that dread ensured it was going down whatever happened.
We were about to pop a second dread before the node crashed. We ran our calculations prior to the assault. We knew we could do it. It worked.
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Audrea
Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.09.09 00:19:00 -
[128]
Edited by: Audrea on 09/09/2006 00:22:02
Originally by: Butter Dog However, we assigned nearly 100 fighters to that dread
lol, that must have been largely responsible for the lag hehehe
how many carriers was that? 9-10?
PS: Nevertheless, try to petition it like Dalman said. there is nothing to loose by trying. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE
All posts are my personal opinions.  |

Pylse
Gallente The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2006.09.09 00:24:00 -
[129]
Dreads would go down to the firepower no doubt. The interesting thing to see would have been how much of you guys would have died if our fleet hadn't had to lag-around to get there. I bet you had warp in lag aswell, but the difference lies in that we had our lag happening WHILE you were shooting the dreads.
All in all it was a terrible fight that can not be concluded by more then one thing: give more power to 9UY =P
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.09 00:26:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Audrea Edited by: Audrea on 09/09/2006 00:22:02
Originally by: Butter Dog However, we assigned nearly 100 fighters to that dread
lol, that must have been largely responsible for the lag hehehe
how many carriers was that? 9-10?
PS: Nevertheless, try to petition it like Dalman said. there is nothing to loose by trying.
About that many. Remember, ISS are in the business of running public outposts. We think a lot about how to kill dreads :)
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Karn Mithralia
Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.09.09 01:35:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Pylse ... give more power to 9UY =P
QFT. The lag is shocking in 9UY.
Petitioning for reimbursement is laughable though, we all know what to expect when we committ and where would it stop? Should CCP replace 90% of the ships lost on everyones killboards? 
Every battle has been lagged to hell and back, if you don't like it don't deploy.  -----------------------------------------
Now recruiting. |

dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.09 02:03:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Butter Dog However, we assigned nearly 100 fighters to that dread. A dread in seige mode CANNOT tank that kind of DPS. Yes, the lag was bad on both sides, but the sheer DPS on that dread ensured it was going down whatever happened.
Read:
Originally by: Pylse I bet you had warp in lag aswell, but the difference lies in that we had our lag happening WHILE you were shooting the dreads.
A sniping BS fleet can almost kill off all your 100 fighters in a minute. Or down a whole lot of your battleships while you're shooting the dreads, in such a way that the isk loss is 'equal' on both sides. If it isn't totally lagged out. And that's the point I was trying to make above...
Don't get me wrong, I'm always expecting lag losses. And capital ships goes boom just like everything else in battle. Kinda surprised we hadn't lost a dread earlier than this. But what could have been an awesome battle instead never was a battle at all, thanks CCP
And I guess this 'fix lag by reducing drones'-change has been kinda overrun by how fighters work  Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |

Marn Prestoc
Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.09 02:43:00 -
[133]
I'm finding this quite amusing, Providence used to be so boring, that station seems to of been the best thing for the region.
Oh and to those who question ISS's attempts at neutrality remember they reset standings to all -ve people in June, that means all the -ve people have shot ISS recemtly. That sounds fair to me, if you don't want them to shoot you then don't shoot them.
Hope you've got some video makers getting pleanty of footage.
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Emeline Cabernet
Amarr KVA Noble Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.09 02:51:00 -
[134]
Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 08/09/2006 23:12:24
Originally by: Coby Descent Wish I'd been around to see that. Glad to hear the conflict continues smack-free 
To see what? The node-crash? Cause that was really all ppl saw in the lag.
/me ponders if he should petition the 273 rounds of faction ammo that has magically dissappeared.
load other ammo during warpin fire one round server goes boom find yourself with the old ammo type magically in guns and the one you loaded just gone   
Oh, and this server performance really is bad. Hard to call it 'huge'; We had 60-70 pilots, and local was at 160-something (dunno how many of those were active unity/iss/whatever). It's really embarassing that the server can't handle that when it's kind of a 'small' engagement for what's usually 'required' by the stupid POS mechanics 
/me looks at corp tag.... you know.. when some of us started,... you were 1 of the good guys..
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zoolkhan
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.09.09 04:35:00 -
[135]
Everybody stop the whining.
The lag affected both war parties equally.
U'K recruit!
contact me ingame for free eve webhosting |

Trinity Faetal
Gallente 0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.09.09 05:22:00 -
[136]
whatever this thread was about it seems lag won again  
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Wild Rho
Amarr Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2006.09.09 06:54:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Verone
Oh btw, Hi Rho, my sexeh Amarrian man  ♥
wub <3
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
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Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.09 09:45:00 -
[138]
I might remind our foes that the lag and node crash saved their second dread, which was entering structure when the node crashed.
You didn't lose your first dread because of lag. You lost it because you deployed it in a system with 100 ISS and U'K, who were waiting for dreads to be deployed so they could pop them. It was a tactical faux pas.
Now, perhaps we should petition CCP to remove the second dread from the game, seeing as the only thing which saved it was a node crash?
I'm not being serious about that of course, just making a point. Do remember the lag works both ways, and the node crash certainly prevented the loss of a second Revelation 
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Darius Shakor
Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.09.09 09:58:00 -
[139]
I have an idea to stop the lag.
All the pirates leave. It was lag free before you came... j/k btw people. ------
Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3 |

Rexthor Hammerfists
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.09 11:14:00 -
[140]
Dalman "A sniping BS fleet can almost kill off all your 100 fighters in a minute. Or down a whole lot of your battleships while you're shooting the dreads, in such a way that the isk loss is 'equal' on both sides."
i doubt that, since u cant call a primary, and pickin the right fighter uder a hundred is kinda impossible. means u got bs shoot random fighters which tank single bs for quiete a while, and in that time the enemie force can shoot ur bs`s.
a pretty good strategy iss has there. - Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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dalman
Finite Auxiliary
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Posted - 2006.09.09 13:09:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists Dalman "A sniping BS fleet can almost kill off all your 100 fighters in a minute. Or down a whole lot of your battleships while you're shooting the dreads, in such a way that the isk loss is 'equal' on both sides."
i doubt that, since u cant call a primary, and pickin the right fighter uder a hundred is kinda impossible. means u got bs shoot random fighters which tank single bs for quiete a while, and in that time the enemie force can shoot ur bs`s.
a pretty good strategy iss has there.
Yes yes, I agree that their assigned fighters is a very good tactic to combat Dreads at a POS. It sure helps to create lag, but that's CCP's fault.
Rexthor, you don't really need to primary fighters. A fighter has, what, like 8k something hp... With normal resist. A normal fleet battleships with longrange ammo puts out like 22-25,000 hp in a minute. One BS would almost kill off 2 fighters in a minute.
50BS would almost take down 100 fighters in a minute in a lag-free situation. And no, we didn't have 50 BS, but uk/iss didn't have 100 fighters.
Butter Dog, tracking is not an issue, with fighters orbiting a dreadnaught, and a BS 150+ km away shooting at that fighter.
Yes we did warp in at ~300km, to a 'pre-set' point. We started to warp to that point as soon as scouts reported that you warped off to the POS, in other words before you arrived at the POS. From this point we would then have warped in to a 150km point. But in my case, I didn't get a single frame for 5 minutes after landing at the POS.
Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |

Butter Dog
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.09 13:30:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 09/09/2006 13:35:05
Your DPS calculations are way off.
You won't get perfect hits all the time, and you have to take native resists into account.
Trust me, I've tried killing fighters with sniping BS many times. Its hard work. 30 seconds? No way. Not unless you get VERY lucky.
Looking at the logs it took us just about 2 minutes to pop the dread. There was *nothing* you could have done to save it, lag or no lag.
Edit: As an example, a templar has well over 8000hp plus native resists. Your hits will be 'mixed' from scratches upward. You're looking at a minute or two, possibly more, per fighter. And how many sniping BS did you have?
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Chode Rizoum
Minmatar Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2006.09.09 14:10:00 -
[143]
hehe this thread is getting old 
less talk more action
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Audrea
Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.09.09 14:14:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Audrea on 09/09/2006 14:14:17
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Audrea Edited by: Audrea on 09/09/2006 00:22:02
Originally by: Butter Dog However, we assigned nearly 100 fighters to that dread
lol, that must have been largely responsible for the lag hehehe
how many carriers was that? 9-10?
PS: Nevertheless, try to petition it like Dalman said. there is nothing to loose by trying.
About that many. Remember, ISS are in the business of running public outposts. We think a lot about how to kill dreads :)
Fair enough, you came up with very good tactic to stop any dread attacks. each carrier has 9 fighters or something, and many more to replace them in its fighter bay.
I doubt CCP thought of this sort of use for carriers when they planned them out, because the way you use them, renders any POS assaults impossible:
All you need is hardened deathstar POS, 9-10 carriers, and the lag will take care of the rest (especially since fighters arent affected by the lag).
Even 20+ dreads would not stand a chance, as you said, it would take 2 mins to kill off 1 dread with so many fighters, and 20 dreads will need at least half hour (IIRC) to put such hardened POS into reinforced.
With enough dreads, I guess the fighters wont stop it, but the loss will be so big, that I cant imagine many systems worthy of such loose. In fact, I cant imagine single one.
Originally by: Rexthor Hammerfists
i doubt that, since u cant call a primary, and pickin the right fighter uder a hundred is kinda impossible.
I disagree. Lets imagine (just imagine ) for a sec that there is no lag, or it is minimal: Now, gang leader gives out lead to the cov ops pilot, who in turn prepares tagging for about 36 fighters (26 A-Z letters and 10 numbers). Now FC orders everyone to add tag column to overview, gang lead is handed back to FC. Now, they warp to their sniper spot.
Result: Focused fire on 1/3 of the fighters  In fact even under the lag, its not hard to tag the fighters during 5 mins before the battle, since they are already out and assigned to ships. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE
All posts are my personal opinions.  |

Seleene
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.09 15:32:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Audrea Fair enough, you came up with very good tactic to stop any dread attacks. each carrier has 9 fighters or something, and many more to replace them in its fighter bay.
I doubt CCP thought of this sort of use for carriers when they planned them out, because the way you use them, renders any POS assaults impossible:
All you need is hardened deathstar POS, 9-10 carriers, and the lag will take care of the rest (especially since fighters arent affected by the lag).
Lag? Who gives a **** about lag, m8? Lag or no lag, OF COURSE that's what you're going to use carriers for. It was the entire point of assigning fighters in teh first place.
You're correct - if you attack a POS that I'm defending, prepare to see 8-10 carriers pop up inside of it at some point, many of which will be launching not nine, but more like 13-14 fighters each. Lag or no lag, whatever the carrier FC calls as a target is going to die rather horribly fast.
What ISS is doing isn't just smart - it's common sense.
As to Dalman's 'sniping at fighters' thing, he's not completely wrong, nor is Butter Dog. I think the truth is somewhere in teh middle of their respective arguments. The problem is, obviously, that until the servers can handle the kind of tactics they are describing... we'll probably never know.  -
Remember Shaelin |

Charlie McCaig
Gallente Astrum Contract Services Group
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Posted - 2006.09.09 15:37:00 -
[146]
My two pence:
Lag: The first Dread was a gonna lag or not. Under that sort of DPS it did not have a chance. Only difference would have been more loses on U'K / ISS side.
ISS Neutrality: A neutral force is only neutral until fired on. Anyone who stays neutral after being fired on doesn't have long to live. Besides the only people who are truely neutral are pirates: they shoot everyone 
EST 9UY Intentions: This thread is 5 pages long now and nobody has suggested it's a BOB alt conpiracy WTF 
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Pylse
Gallente The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2006.09.09 15:48:00 -
[147]
Please do not exaggerate the point I was making. It was not made in order to justify our loss. People who apprehend in that manner should be slower to jump on the arguments. I made it clear that there was no doubt our Dreadnought would die to the firepower. The people who decided to deploy those dreadnoughts knew the risks, and they also knew we would probably not get anywhere if we did not deploy at all.
We are a bunch of nearly non-industrial pirate corporations. We are fighting an alliance backed by another alliance that is not entirely unlikely to be the strongest sov-claiming alliance in the game. They live by building public outposts over a widespread area. In other words, they had better know their things. They have towers.
If we try to outrun U'K with towers in a system like 9UY which is CLATTERED with celestial objects that will be more foolhardy and not to mention more expencive then deploying a dreadnought fleet in a very hostile environment. The war has only just started, things may still change drastically.
Please do not blame us for trying a multitude of ways to fight a war =P
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B1uedrag0n
Immortalis Silens Atrocitas
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Posted - 2006.09.09 15:53:00 -
[148]
A quick scan of B1uedrag0n on our killboards indicates that he has not been involved in any kills nor have ushra'khan killed him. Given the fact this conflict has been going on for well over a month all I can do at this stage is laugh.
Ever hear of logistics. not all of the fighting is done on the battlefield my friend. (how many kills do u get in a covert opps)
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Audrea
Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum
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Posted - 2006.09.09 15:56:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Seleene
Originally by: Audrea Fair enough, you came up with very good tactic to stop any dread attacks. each carrier has 9 fighters or something, and many more to replace them in its fighter bay.
I doubt CCP thought of this sort of use for carriers when they planned them out, because the way you use them, renders any POS assaults impossible:
All you need is hardened deathstar POS, 9-10 carriers, and the lag will take care of the rest (especially since fighters arent affected by the lag).
Lag? Who gives a **** about lag, m8? Lag or no lag, OF COURSE that's what you're going to use carriers for. It was the entire point of assigning fighters in teh first place.
You're correct - if you attack a POS that I'm defending, prepare to see 8-10 carriers pop up inside of it at some point, many of which will be launching not nine, but more like 13-14 fighters each. Lag or no lag, whatever the carrier FC calls as a target is going to die rather horribly fast.
What ISS is doing isn't just smart - it's common sense.
As to Dalman's 'sniping at fighters' thing, he's not completely wrong, nor is Butter Dog. I think the truth is somewhere in teh middle of their respective arguments. The problem is, obviously, that until the servers can handle the kind of tactics they are describing... we'll probably never know. 
The thing is, through use of 9-10 carriers sitting inside POS shields, with frigs sending off fighters on primary dread, and then either hide inside the shields as well (not sure if this is still possible, but think it is), or just keep warping between 2-3 cans distanced further than 150km.
The problem with this tactic, is that the defenders no longer have slight advantage, but they have total upperhand, making their looses minimal at worst, and none at best.
The balance is tipped now, can you name one possible system, for which it would make sense sacrificing over half dozen dreads at least, for every POS which is taken down? ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE
All posts are my personal opinions.  |

Bazman
Caldari The Establishment Establishment
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Posted - 2006.09.09 17:06:00 -
[150]
Boy do I feel silly -----
Sig removed, maximum allowed image dimensions are 400x120 and maximum allowed size is 24,000 bytes. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your picture!) -wystler Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
I am a |
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