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Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 57	Posted - 2011.11.29 21:52:00 - [1] - Quote Kal'ar Rinah wrote: but i have to say that it is in direct odds with what the dev blogs on PI have stated and there was nothing in the patch notes at all about the price increase you've got one dev blog that was advertised and pushed forward for attention that states that to keep costs as they were set the tax rate to 5% and then a wiki entry (which i haven't seen posted anywhere before this thread ) stating something completely different Yeah, agreed about that. Kal'ar Rinah wrote: also my main concern now is if they update the tax values on a monthly (or bi-monthly) basis then PI costs could very easily spiral out of control.. If they did that it would be ensured to spiral out of control. The market will raise prices by 17% to accomodate the new tax, then they'd update base prices to the new price, it'd go up another 17% to accomodate the tax again, and they'd update the base to the new prices, and so on...
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 57	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:04:00 - [2] - Quote Halcyon Ingenium wrote: Oh, did you ever stop to think that they gave it much consideration? The fact that the dev who made the blog post about it doesn't seem to have even been aware they were changing it makes me doubt it was thoroughly contemplated. But, I actually think it's a good thing. Driving people out of hi sec and encouraging turf wars in low sec over POCOs are both probably good things.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 57	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:35:00 - [3] - Quote Denidil wrote: 10k/s regen I believe it's actually 1k/s
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 57	Posted - 2011.11.29 22:35:00 - [4] - Quote Avila Cracko wrote: What??? what are rates of launchers compared to CO??? Just slightly lower. At least slightly lower in a wormhole launching coolant. Didn't check anything else or anywhere else.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 59	Posted - 2011.11.30 17:44:00 - [5] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: Please, close your mouth... you're leaking stupid on the carpet. Dude, quit being a ****. As a general rule of thumb on the internet, it's the guy who is calling everybody else stupid in every post that is the one that isn't quite following the arguments people are making and that seems to be the case here.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 59	Posted - 2011.11.30 17:48:00 - [6] - Quote Ad'Hakim Tahous wrote: The "market" will need time to adjust to this new mix of production costs: various tax rates per planet, volatility in the quantities of PI/T2 items actually reaching the market, sell off of stockpiles, and margin buy/sell orders by wealthy middle-market traders. I actually think the market already adjusted before the expansion came out. For example, robotics is up some 80% since they announced the changes. That's more than the cost of the tax even if you calculate in that you have to export, import to a factory planet, and re-export.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 59	Posted - 2011.11.30 18:44:00 - [7] - Quote Ad'Hakim Tahous wrote: Once the initial shock of the short-term reduction in cash flow has worn off, and these producers do what they must to meet their cash requirements, I'd expect to see these producers stockpiling as much as possible until average Buy order price > weighted average net cost of stockpiled items. Yeah I think that's right. But, where people will get in trouble is if they stockpile until their profits per unit would be equal to what they were immediately before crucible. That would be a mistake because immediately before crucible the market had already adjusted to the new costs. Right before crucible the prices were the market's estimate of what they should be AFTER the patch, but their costs were still what they were BEFORE the patch. So they were able to basically reap a windfall for a while and that won't continue to happen. The folks posting that they were making 1bil/month in high sec just doing PI shouldn't expect to make that now. It'll return to a normal level of profitability, not the windfall profits they got from the transition. But, yeah, it's possible the market didn't fully adjust. As you pointed out, a lot of people didn't expect this big of a spike. The dev who made the blog post was apparently not aware they were adjusting the base price. He claimed that a 5% tax post crucible would cost the same as a 5% tax before, which was off by orders of magnitude. The wiki did specify the new rates, but heck, even for folks that noticed that, who is to say whether the wiki or the dev blog post is the accurate one. That said though, I think in a transition like this the market factors in a fair amount of uncertainty. 80% is a big jump. I'm still not sure we'll see it go up beyond that. If POCOs end up working out and people set reasonable tax rates, we might even see the price fall.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 59	Posted - 2011.11.30 18:53:00 - [8] - Quote Anela Cistine wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: So, I say again (respectfully), bullcrap. There's no risk/reward being added by these damnable contraptions. Just unnecessary and ill-thought out expense. And like I stated, these things really show their true worthlessness in wormholes, where the couple K in exports you'll save with 0% tax settings won't recoup the cost of these abominations for months (or longer). Just wasted isk. No added risk/reward. Don't think of it as an added expense. Think of it as the normal expense, and the absurdly low cost of doing business before now was an introductory sale which has now ended. Don't even think of it as an expense. It's a profitable long term investment. The PI prices will likely balance out based on the cost of high sec PI, so that means with the tax priced in. If you don't build a POCO in a wormhole, you'll be making normal profits. If you build one and evade the tax, you'll make normal profits + the tax.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 59	Posted - 2011.11.30 18:54:00 - [9] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: How do you jetcan them back to a different planet for further refinement? Jet canning doesn't help anyways. It costs almost the same as the customs office.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 59	Posted - 2011.11.30 19:08:00 - [10] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: "Normal" tax was 2 or 3 K for a shipment of P2 goods up, half that to import to a different planet for further processing, and another small tax to export processed goods. Now? 5000 Precious metals... 617K or so in taxes. Importing them to the next planet brings the taxes to over a million, with comparable taxes on other imported goods, meaning something like robotics, which requires four P2 items, has already been hit for 4M in taxes just to consolidate 5K of each item. Then you're hit again on the refined products you're exporting. We've gone, without exaggerating, from around 10K to millions of isk in taxes for something that provides little to no benefit to the game, and absolutely no benefit to wormhole existance. It's pure cost, pure expense. No added risk, no added rewards. You don't understand. The prices of the goods you produce went way up prior to the patch to take the new expense into account. The prices you can sell the stuff for is not fixed, it fluctuates based on how much it costs to make the stuff, how much of a pita it is, etc. So if everybody's costs go up X ISK, the price goes up X too. But in a wormhole you at least have the option to avoid the tax increase and make the usual profits PLUS the amount that the taxes are costing other players.
Teamosil Good Time Family Band Solution 59	Posted - 2011.11.30 19:25:00 - [11] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: Most of what's produced, POS fuel, remains in the wormhole. Some excess will eventually get out to market, sure, and any non-fuels you may have going as well, but the majority remains in the hole and therefore is exempt from your line of reasoning. This is why this is pretty much simply a useless expense. Ah ok. Yeah, fueling POS's got more expensive with crucible for sure. For everybody, not just folks doing it with PI.

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