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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
4102
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Posted - 2014.12.16 01:45:05 -
[151] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:But it doesn't require pretending that one Faction is responsible for all the Cluster's ills and that a certain other faction poops kittens and rainbows and happy things.
Exactly.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
418
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Posted - 2014.12.16 01:46:10 -
[152] - Quote
In all fairness, I think there is somewhat of a disparity between military espionage and mistreatment of prisoners of war - Which every Empire indulges in to some extent, I am certain - And slave raids on mostly civilian populations. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4334
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Posted - 2014.12.16 02:12:56 -
[153] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:In all fairness, I think there is somewhat of a disparity between military espionage and mistreatment of prisoners of war - Which every Empire indulges in to some extent, I am certain - And slave raids on mostly civilian populations.
I suppose so. If you're a civilian.
Since everyone in the State works for a corporation and all the corporations maintain military forces, the Feddies are not above claiming ANY citizen of the Megas to be a combatant.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
4102
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Posted - 2014.12.16 02:23:51 -
[154] - Quote
The Federation aren't conducting slave raids.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
4334
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Posted - 2014.12.16 03:10:27 -
[155] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:The Federation aren't conducting slave raids.
They are simply detaining POWs in illegal black facilities where they are subjected to Maker knows what with little hope of eventual release.
Your concern for your countrymen is touching, though.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
419
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Posted - 2014.12.16 03:38:27 -
[156] - Quote
While the Federations treatment of Caldari prisoners of war (Especially under Rodens administration) has been shown to be considerably unpleasant at times, it must be said that when one makes the choice to take up a sword, one is also inherently accepting that ones life is being thrown into the winds of fate. That you are choosing to bring ill things to your enemy, and thus will likely have ill things brought to you, in turn. It is foul and unacceptable that those men and women are being treated in the way that they are, but to some degree, they chose to willingly throw themselves into danger.
I've heard no accounts of the Federation abducting anyone other than military personel or those who work extremely close to them, but whatever the case, they certainly don't go down to planets or into stations and round up Caldari men, women and children in the regard Amarrian slavers do. The situations are both grim, but this does not make them comparable. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5156
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Posted - 2014.12.16 07:29:47 -
[157] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Considering some of the things that Federal forces get up to behind Amarrian and Caldari borders, do you really want to go down this path? So we're right back to "it's alright that we break treaties because other people do it too," and the Amarr Empire still has no moral high-ground.
Stitcher wrote:The Federation aren't conducting slave raids. But the Amarrians are - and do you know what? They're doing it in State space, too.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5156
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Posted - 2014.12.16 07:52:01 -
[158] - Quote
Actually, you know what? I'm going to come right out and say it. Every time I, as a Federal loyalist, make some criticism of another empire's supposed moral superiority, I'm inundated with a deluge of whining, wheedling pissants wringing their hands, stamping their feet and screaming "b-b-but the Federation...!"
Let me address this inept red-herring clearly and concisely.
Vast weight of historical evidence on the IGS demonstrates that almost any conversation in which someone has to bring up "but the Federation...!" has absolutely nothing to do with the Federation. This thread, in fact, is not about the Federation. It's about the Empire, and the many, many false claims of moral superiority or righteousness that people supporting it - and hilariously enough, it's not even actual Amarrian loyalists who are doing most of this defending, it's the foreign mercenaries who won the battle for them. Fun times, guys, but if the Amarr ever did conquer the cluster, your day of the rope would be quick to arrive.
I could, at this moment, spend paragraphs defending the Federation. But I don't need to. That's the point of a red herring - to get people to waste time and effort arguing a point they don't actually need to argue. This is not a conversation about the Federation. This is a conversation about the Empire and how flimsy their justification for their actions is. You want this to be a conversation about the Federation because it's easier to attack the Federation's misdeeds than to defend your own.
Even if the Federation is as unethical as you claim, the most this argument even accomplishes is to say "well, the Federation's not an immaculate moral paragon, so we don't have to be either!" Surprise - you're Amarr (or you support them). Your religion literally says that you have to do that. Your misdeeds are not absolved by the misdeeds of others.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
996
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Posted - 2014.12.16 08:32:31 -
[159] - Quote
We have defended ourselves, and we've denounced the illegal activities that do tarnish our blessed nation.
But even though we're in agreement that those illegal activities are wrong, that Amarr does, in fact, have an issue with criminals and heretics plaguing us, that we like any other empire have our own problems that we need to purge, those arguments haven't been good enough for you. Because you're so intent on wanting to prove that we support it, that we allow it, that we sanction it.
I'm not sure what you want from us here? What do you want us to say? That we're evil incarnate? That we're the source of all of the cluster's ills? Does that make it easier for you, to believe we're the devil so you can just feel hatred for us?
It's funny how you, Mr. Ixiris, will voice support when I refuse to accept the State's illegal invasion of the Federation in YC110 as being any better than the Republic's. But when we say it here, reminding that in this, the Empyrean War, the war that started in YC110, that we were the the ones attacked in violation of interstellar peace treaties, you go and pull out all the standard bile and demonizing about how the Empire deserves it, it's okay that the Republic did it if it's against the Empire.
There is a hypocrite here, but it isn't us. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5156
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Posted - 2014.12.16 09:04:07 -
[160] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:We have defended ourselves, and we've denounced the illegal activities that do tarnish our blessed nation.
But even though we're in agreement that those illegal activities are wrong, that Amarr does, in fact, have an issue with criminals and heretics plaguing us, that we like any other empire have our own problems that we need to purge, those arguments haven't been good enough for you. Because you're so intent on wanting to prove that we support it, that we allow it, that we sanction it. Because you do sanction it. Because it's literally so trivial to prove that it could be done in ten minutes if anyone with sufficient standings were to go to a level 2 security agent anywhere in Minmatar space and recover the requisite documents.
Samira Kernher wrote:I'm not sure what you want from us here? What do you want us to say? That we're evil incarnate? That we're the source of all of the cluster's ills? Does that make it easier for you, to believe we're the devil so you can just feel hatred for us? I want the Amarr Empire to admit that it doesn't have a divine right to conquer or rule the cosmos. I want the Amarr to renounce the reclaiming. I want the Amarr to stay inside their own borders. I want the Amarr to treat other races as equals, not as inferiors and potential servants. Until this happens, I will continue to rebuff any effort whatsoever they make to do otherwise - with force, if neccessary.
As for the source of all the cluster's ills? Hardly, but the Empire is the source of the Blood Raiders, the Equilibrium of Man and it had a very significant hand in allowing Sansha Kuvakei to become as powerful as he did, it's utlimately responsible for a vast number of problems the Minmatar had and continue to have, it's responsible for the total annihilation of two entire ethnic groups and their attendant cultures, one of your heirs went crazy and invaded the Federation and it provided financial and political support to Tibus Heth's disastrous tyranny until the very last possible second. Not all of the cluster's ills, but a damn sight more than its fair share.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Mizhara Del'thul
T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan
68
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Posted - 2014.12.16 09:11:24 -
[161] - Quote
Except they're neither criminals nor heretics, are they? If it were so, I'd be rather horrified given the size and number of the fleets conducting slave raids through all of New Eden indicating fairly extreme numbers of them in your quite sanctioned and official navy.
Be honest, at least with yourself, little kin. Pretending doesn't make reality go away and there'll never be change if you pretend the problem doesn't exist, or is something entirely different than what is real. I've personally taken on Imperial fleets in Republic space before the proxy war even started and so have countless others, not much different from how your PIE comrades have rebuffed Republic fleets in Empire space.
The Elders certainly kicked off the "official" war this time around, but the reality is that the war started on the Day of Darkness and never ended. Can't deny that there isn't a sort of beautiful symmetry in having a millennia of peace, unprecedented in human history, ended by an Amarrian invasion and followed by a war as endless and unprecedented in scope, but let's not pretend it is something other than it is.
It will one day end, but not until every trace of our people are either gone or the Empire ends the slavery and war they inflicted on New Eden. That is really all there is to it. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
170
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Posted - 2014.12.16 09:51:26 -
[162] - Quote
Congratulations to 24IC and the other Imperial affiliates on their victory, I hope that lasting security can now be achieved in the region.
This post does not constitute, unless clearly indicated otherwise, a statement of policy, opinion or approval by my corporation, alliance or coalition and should not be treated as such.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
996
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Posted - 2014.12.16 10:07:17 -
[163] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Because you do sanction it. Because it's literally so trivial to prove that it could be done in ten minutes if anyone with sufficient standings were to go to a level 2 security agent anywhere in Minmatar space and recover the requisite documents.
What does this prove?
No one has denied that it happens. We know it happens. It's wrong but it happens.
But it is not sanctioned. It is not legal. What, you think the fact that they have Imperial Navy tags means that the Navy okayed it? All it means is that the perpetrators are members of the Imperial Navy and therefore it is the Imperial Navy that must take a hard look at itself and purge the corrupt from its ranks.
How many times do I have to say it? These things are illegal under the interstellar law to which we agreed and signed, and when it happens it needs to be stopped. It is not good, it is not okay, and we ourselves hunt these traitors too.
Our most vile demon is the Deceiver. To lie, to break our word, that is one of the greatest sins in Amarr. Those who act in defiance of our word are disgracing themselves and they are disgracing Dam-Amarr.
Quote:I want the Amarr Empire to admit that it doesn't have a divine right to conquer or rule the cosmos. I want the Amarr to renounce the reclaiming. I want the Amarr to stay inside their own borders. I want the Amarr to treat other races as equals, not as inferiors and potential servants. Until this happens, I will continue to rebuff any effort whatsoever they make to do otherwise - with force, if neccessary.
The Amarr have a divine mandate to conquer, though conquering can take many forms that do not require swords or lasers. But to renounce the Reclaiming is to renounce God. What you are demanding is not for Amarr to act in a way you consider decent, but for us to discard and spit on everything that we are. That will never happen. We must work to stop the things that are wrong, like the swelling of heresy and crime and atrocity that has happened across the cluster since the start of the empyrean age, but we will not stop the things that are not wrong. |
Kalaratiri
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
416
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 10:17:23 -
[164] - Quote
Shut up. Everybody is in the wrong. We've seen this argument hashed out so many times I expect most of us can repeat it by rote. Literally very major group in the cluster has done something that the others can point at and claim moral superiority. Repetitive arguments on a glorified message board are not going to suddenly prove that one viewpoint is right and, by god, how had we not seen this all along?!
For the sake of your own blood pressure, just stop.
Go suck on some drop or something equally useful.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
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Ridha Shakir
Gradient
5
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Posted - 2014.12.16 10:31:02 -
[165] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:
But it is not sanctioned. It is not legal. What, you think the fact that they have Imperial Navy tags means that the Navy okayed it? All it means is that the perpetrators are members of the Imperial Navy and therefore it is the Imperial Navy that must take a hard look at itself and purge the corrupt from its ranks.
How do you get this deep insight into what is sanctioned or not? Does the Navy send it's weekly plans to you to be sanctioned by you? If yes - respect! If no - keep closing your eyes and ears to reality. It won't just go away though.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
996
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Posted - 2014.12.16 10:36:34 -
[166] - Quote
Because it breaks our laws. Our laws do not sanction those activities. Ergo, they are not sanctioned. |
Darc Kaahar
The Gaping Maw The Periphery
60
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Posted - 2014.12.16 10:57:12 -
[167] - Quote
Desiderya wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote: Tell that to the families of the hundreds of thousands of dead Navymen in Algogille.
Exactly, peanuts. John Revenent wrote:Although late. On behalf of the Ishukone-Raata Enforcement Directive, I wish to congratulate our allied pilots within Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris and those loyal to the Amarr Empire for their victory. It is indeed an accomplishment. Thank you for your heartfelt congratulations, it means a lot. I'll relay it to the team.
It's fair to say that this monumental achievement would never have happened without the efforts of the brave pilots of PY-RE. So, therefore I would like to extend my sincere congratulations to you and your team, Desiderya.
Well done you glorious sky gods. Well done.
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
910
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Posted - 2014.12.16 11:46:04 -
[168] - Quote
That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5156
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Posted - 2014.12.16 11:50:50 -
[169] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:But it is not sanctioned. It is not legal. What, you think the fact that they have Imperial Navy tags means that the Navy okayed it? All it means is that the perpetrators are members of the Imperial Navy and therefore it is the Imperial Navy that must take a hard look at itself and purge the corrupt from its ranks. Then you should purge the entire Amarr Civil Service as well, and the Court Chamberlain, and the Ministry of War, and probably kill some of your Heirs too, because you can find documents from almost every single Amarrian authority sanctioning these raids if you go digging in the wreckage of the camps.
They might be illegal according to CONCORD, but they most certainly are sanctioned. Either that or everyone in your entire Empire has absolutely no idea what anyone else in it is doing. Either these raids are sanctioned, or the Empire is in a state of complete, all-consuming bureaucratic paralysis that means no information on anything is known further away than the desk in which it is collated on.
Samira Kernher wrote:The Amarr have a divine mandate to conquer, though conquering can take many forms that do not require swords or lasers. But to renounce the Reclaiming is to renounce God. If you cannot renounce the Reclaiming without renouncing God, then renounce God. You most certainly do not have a divine mandate to conquer. You do not have a divine mandate to do anything - and yes, until the Amarr admit that and accept it, I will keep doing what I do. And if it requires it, I will do it with force.
Unless the Amarr Empire changes, Samira, there are only two possible outcomes - the Amarr Empire and all within it will be burnt to sterile ash, or the same will happen to the rest of the universe. There can't be peace with the Amarr Empire, not really, because the Amarr will not, and seemingly cannot accept that people have absolutely no interest in being ruled by them or following their religion, and we will resist it until our dying breath. We do not wish to be a part of your culture. We will resist it culturally, we will resist in politically, and if neccessary we will resist it with as much force as is neccessary. If there is no other option than the utter destruction of the Amarr Empire, we will do it. I know the Minmatar would not hesitate. If the Caldari believed you posed a dire threat to their cultural or political independence and your utter destruction was their only chance at freedom, I know they would not hesitate either. You are probably talking to a man whose society would have among it the most hesitant to engage in the full-scale obliteration of another civilization. But I do not think that the Federation is so hesitant that in a choice between its own destruction and your destruction they would meekly lay down and accept oblivion.
The Minmatar Republic will never be your slaves again - as I have said previously, they would die first and as they were doing so, they would take as many of you with them as they can. The Caldari State's principle of "Never Again" does not just apply to the Federation - I have seen many capsuleers loyal to the State not-so-politely remind Amarrians that the State will not be bowed by any external force. The Federation of course, has blessedly never had to deal with a danger so severe that it threatens its continued existence - but I know that maintaining the Federation's core values is a difficult enough task in times of peace and tranquility, which are increasingly rare. I hope I never have to see the Federation driven to extremity - and that is a hope that every sane individual in the cluster should share with me. The Jove? Well, who knows what they think - if, indeed, there are any of them left to think - but they gave you an answer to your attempt to force them into bondage once.
If the Amarr cannot accept that we will never let ourselves be a part of the Empire, that we will never worship your god and that we will never submit ourselves to your culture, there will be war. There will be war upon war, and though at times there may be the illusion of peace, it will only be breathing room for the next conflict. The Amarr will not subvert our culture through deception or conversion, and so it must try to bring us to heel by force. We will die before we surrender, and so either you must destroy us or we must destroy you.
The Amarr will have ultimate victory over a desolate world utterly devoid of the people they sought to conquer, or they will have oblivion. This is the only result of continuing to believe in the divine mandate.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1502
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 11:55:53 -
[170] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Stitcher wrote:The Federation aren't conducting slave raids. They are simply detaining POWs in illegal black facilities where they are subjected to Maker knows what with little hope of eventual release. Your concern for your countrymen is touching, though. Tuulinen-haan, Mr. Stitcher is a traitor, you shouldn't expect from him any feelings towards our countrymen. He isn't Caldari anymore. He even hides from doing Caldari duty in some Maker-forsaken wormhole and pirates against neutral haulers. I believe a "gurista" would be a proper term for him. |
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1502
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Posted - 2014.12.16 11:57:30 -
[171] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote: Go suck on some drop or something equally useful.
Selling, buying, holding in posession, transporting or consuming narcotics is illegal. Please refrain from committing or asking others to commit prohibited actions. |
Kalaratiri
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
422
|
Posted - 2014.12.16 12:15:13 -
[172] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Kalaratiri wrote: Go suck on some drop or something equally useful.
Selling, buying, holding in posession, transporting or consuming narcotics is illegal. Please refrain from committing or asking others to commit prohibited actions.
Oh boo hoo.
She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.
This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums. -á- CCP Falcon
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Jukko Riis
Black Rise Colonial Exploration
20
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Posted - 2014.12.16 12:17:32 -
[173] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:....a lot of words on why Amarr's imperialism is bad and how it is wrong to break treaties and take over other peoples' worlds and do bad things to the people who live there....
(quote condensed for brevity)
So we can expect the Federation to move out of Black Rise...when?
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5156
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Posted - 2014.12.16 12:29:09 -
[174] - Quote
Jukko Riis wrote:B-b-but the Federation...! I literally just addressed this.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Anslo
Scope Works Psychotic Tendencies.
24773
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Posted - 2014.12.16 12:33:22 -
[175] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Kalaratiri wrote: Go suck on some drop or something equally useful.
Selling, buying, holding in posession, transporting or consuming narcotics is illegal. Please refrain from committing or asking others to commit prohibited actions. Oh boo hoo. Rrrrrrrrip
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
4106
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Posted - 2014.12.16 13:04:21 -
[176] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Stitcher wrote:The Federation aren't conducting slave raids. They are simply detaining POWs in illegal black facilities where they are subjected to Maker knows what with little hope of eventual release. Your concern for your countrymen is touching, though.
That's entirely deserving of condemnation, I agree. And if this were a conversation about that subject I'd happily weigh in and voice my concern for our fellow Caldari.
But, that's not what we're discussing right now. What we're discussing right now is illegal Amarrian slave raids, and if we get sidetracked onto a different subject - however similar it may be, and however worthy that subject may be to discuss in its own right - then that just means that Blake's tu quoque will have succeeded in distracting us.
If we want to start discussing what the Federation gets up to, sure. I'll pitch in like I have so many times before. But let's do that in its own thread, is what I'm saying, rather than allowing these Amarrian distraction tactics to work again.
Andreus Ixiris wrote:you should purge the entire Amarr Civil Service as well, and the Court Chamberlain, and the Ministry of War, and probably kill some of your Heirs too, because you can find documents from almost every single Amarrian authority sanctioning these raids if you go digging in the wreckage of the camps.
They might be illegal according to CONCORD, but they most certainly are sanctioned.
The more accurate term might be "authorised". Somebody with the authority to do so has given the order, whether or not they are sanctioned by the highest authorities or by interstellar law.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Jukko Riis
Black Rise Colonial Exploration
20
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Posted - 2014.12.16 13:11:03 -
[177] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Jukko Riis wrote:B-b-but the Federation...! I literally just addressed this.
Ah, I see.
The whole "Scorched Worlds" campaign by your government is completely irrelevant and in no way makes you a hypocrite because we're supposed to be discussing the Amarr and what horrible things they do.
The horrible things YOU do make no difference and you're exempt from criticism because, AMARR.
Got it.
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
4106
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Posted - 2014.12.16 13:14:34 -
[178] - Quote
the funny thing about hypocrisy is that it doesn't actually reduce the validity of any arguments made against other wrong-doing. It's perfectly valid for pirates to feel nothing but contempt for slavers.
Andreus isn't suggesting that the Federation is exempt from criticism. What he's saying is one thing at a time.
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
1672
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Posted - 2014.12.16 13:19:01 -
[179] - Quote
Kalaratiri wrote:
Go suck on some drop or something equally useful.
Personally I prefer blue pill or crystal egg for my recreational drug use. They go so much better with smooth jazz.
The last time I had a hit of drop it was quite the bad trip. I think I left one secretary with a dislocated jaw and a fractured rib while the other I nearly asphyxiated with a silk stocking - and not in the proper erotic asphyxiation either.
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5160
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Posted - 2014.12.16 13:24:28 -
[180] - Quote
Jukko Riis wrote:The whole "Scorched Worlds" campaign by your government is completely irrelevant Yes, because firstly, I've never heard of it, and secondly, this thread isn't about the Federation.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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