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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14172
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Posted - 2014.12.12 22:54:54 -
[61] - Quote
d0cTeR9 wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Out of all the possible reasons you could find to justify why EVE combat pilots are so risk averse, KBs are near to number one. They're the bane of the game. Mr Epeen Agreed. Can't fly anything expensive, or else, 'zomg killboard!!!!!!!'... So what's the point of having nice things in EVE?...
Your organisation sucks then, I have no limitations imposed upon me and I am free to exorcise my rights to be a special snowflake.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Paranoid Loyd
2988
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Posted - 2014.12.12 22:56:42 -
[62] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:OP I just looked at your killboard, you are either the greatest PVPer in this game or you choose your fights wisely just like the people you are accusing of running from a fight because of the reasons you wanted to make up in your head. Greatest pvper? What are you talking about? You know people like Dalikah? :) I just lost a comet today because I turned on my reps too late..derp. You either completely missed my point or chose to ignore it. So why am I, in your opinion, one of the best pvpers? You can have 10 000 kills and 100 deaths but if most of the kills were blobs, it doesn't mean you're good. Most of my small gang/solo pvp kills are from 2014, and my K/D ratio and all isn't that awesome. Yes, after you spend years in low you learn how to fit and fly ships well, so getting small gang/solo kills isn't that hard. Instead of suicide ganking visit us dirty pirates in low :) You might like it. And yes, I do know how to pick up fights. I don't fight blobs when I'm alone and I don't fight super fast kity ships and worms when I'm alone, but comets, firetails etc are pretty fair fights. Hell even a tristan can kill a comet with its neuts. You are still missing the point or ignoring it.
I'll make it simple for you: Your conclusion is baseless. People will bail from a fight for a plethora of reasons, concluding it is because of kill boards is what you made up in your head.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
176
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:00:53 -
[63] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:I don't probe in faction frigates
No one has ever decloaked and jammed me in a plex
I talk in local when I feel like it
If we're recruiting? Warp to cyno is a great alliance and we are a great corp full of brave men, so if you feel like joining, sure. Nonononono, you got that wrong.
I meant that, you and your friends fight and some guy shows up in a 1400mm tornado from distance and starts unloading on you.
I also meant ... you and your friends fight and some guy shows up in a cloaky jammer and starts jamming your side so the other side can kick your candy asses.
Also ... uhm ... you sit in a PLEX, at warp-in, and wait for an idiot to come?
And you dare using "brave men" in connection with you and making this thread?
Also, in regards to your conversation with Paranoid Loyd ... WHOOOOOOOSH! |
Mashie Saldana
Lock'n'Point Warp to Cyno.
1247
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:02:55 -
[64] - Quote
Sol Project wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:I don't probe in faction frigates
No one has ever decloaked and jammed me in a plex
I talk in local when I feel like it
If we're recruiting? Warp to cyno is a great alliance and we are a great corp full of brave men, so if you feel like joining, sure. Nonononono, you got that wrong. I meant that, you and your friends fight and some guy shows up in a 1400mm tornado from distance and starts unloading on you. I also meant ... you and your friends fight and some guy shows up in a cloaky jammer and starts jamming your side so the other side can kick your candy asses. Also ... uhm ... you sit in a PLEX, at warp-in, and wait for an idiot to come? And you dare using "brave men" in connection with you and making this thread?
I'm usually the idiot who warps into the plex :) |
Ian Morbius
163
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:05:00 -
[65] - Quote
One leaderboard to rule them all.
Death Valley & Mojave real world hardcore.
www.acronymfinder.com
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Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
176
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:05:18 -
[66] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:I'm usually the idiot who warps into the plex :) Then I sincerely apologise! :) |
Mashie Saldana
Lock'n'Point Warp to Cyno.
1247
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:06:50 -
[67] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:OP I just looked at your killboard, you are either the greatest PVPer in this game or you choose your fights wisely just like the people you are accusing of running from a fight because of the reasons you wanted to make up in your head. Greatest pvper? What are you talking about? You know people like Dalikah? :) I just lost a comet today because I turned on my reps too late..derp. You either completely missed my point or chose to ignore it. So why am I, in your opinion, one of the best pvpers? You can have 10 000 kills and 100 deaths but if most of the kills were blobs, it doesn't mean you're good. Most of my small gang/solo pvp kills are from 2014, and my K/D ratio and all isn't that awesome. Yes, after you spend years in low you learn how to fit and fly ships well, so getting small gang/solo kills isn't that hard. Instead of suicide ganking visit us dirty pirates in low :) You might like it. And yes, I do know how to pick up fights. I don't fight blobs when I'm alone and I don't fight super fast kity ships and worms when I'm alone, but comets, firetails etc are pretty fair fights. Hell even a tristan can kill a comet with its neuts. You are still missing the point or ignoring it. I'll make it simple for you: Your conclusion is baseless. People will bail from a fight for a plethora of reasons, concluding it is because of kill boards is what you made up in your head.
Mate, you've clearly never done any frig pvp in plexes, otherwise you'd know it can go either way. Many guys, not saying all- but many don't go into fights because they don't want their loss on kb, coz they'd be ashamed for it. I know a few guys like these, I know what I'm talking about. I dont know what you're trying to prove, really. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3593
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:09:32 -
[68] - Quote
Sorry, haven't read any posts beyond the first page yet, but, totally agree with OP. KBs are immersion breaking as hell.
People complain "I can't find good solo fights".
Shouldn't the game be about, "I want to avoid solo fights, I want to avoid predatory entities, I don't want to train 6 alts, I want to bully people weaker than me, while evading their furious inbred siblings and maybe meeting a few cool people along the way."
One also thing that bugged me recently, possibly unrelated. I played through the newly revised NPE combat missions ona minmatar alt earlier this week and I was told by my agent that projectiles were the best weapon system available and that I should join faction warfare immediately.
One problem.... Where is the career agent for factional warfare? Where is the introductory experience for new players who do not understand the factional warfare mechanics???
I think the work CCP does is very good and very slow and I know they always strive hard to make all content as relevant and meaningful as possible. I hope they can find time to make an NPE tutorial for FW!
Oh god.
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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Cynosural Field Theory.
1442
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:09:49 -
[69] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:So, I was roaming in lowsec again with my favorite fed navy comet. I saw another fed navy in the novice, so I pursued him in. As I was landing, he warped away. I asked him why he did it and he told me he's too scared. He lost his comet about 30 minutes later to a kiting tristan.
This happens a LOT to me in lowsec. Last night, 2 comets bailed. About 2 weeks ago, I was sitting in a novice with a republic fleet firetail and another firetail appeared on dscan, he was sitting in front of the novice for about a minute and then he warped.
I asked him in local why he did it, and he told me he's worried about losing his ship.
In my opinion, the public killboard is CANCER. It kinda reminds me of call of duty and kills/losses ratio.
With eve, it's the same thing. People are too scared to take risks because of the possible loss. I'm pretty sure if there weren't any public killboard sites, there would be much more pvp in eve.
I have a little nasty daredevil with a faction web sitting in a lowsec station, but my corp/alliace wouldn't be happy if I lost it. I have a vindicator I'm eager to use in solo pvp, but my corp members would kill me if I caused 2 billion loss on KB. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
I just wish there weren't no public killboards.
Combat log stats in eve should definitely stay, and imo one should be on the kill it even if he doesn't cause the final blow. You ***** on a killmail, it should appear in the combat log. That way, if there weren't public killboards, you'd still see and could link what you've lost/killed.
This is probably not going to happen, but it would be awesome if it did!
And it wouldn't be a problem for corp recruiters, either. They could just see all your kills/losses in your API.
I disagree. In pvp it is all about winning. There is no 2nd place, you either win or you die. I hate losing ships or pods...that does not mean I do not pvp but I try to pick my fights. There is no reason why I would go in a fight with a Garmur when I am sitting in a blaster ship. When I am in the right ship and local does not look fucky then I engage...and man do I love to win.
TunDraGon is recruiting!
"Also, your boobs [:o] " -á
CCP Eterne, 2012
"When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
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Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
178
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:13:06 -
[70] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Mate, you've clearly never done any frig pvp in plexes, otherwise you'd know it can go either way. Many guys, not saying all- but many don't go into fights because they don't want their loss on kb, coz they'd be ashamed for it. I know a few guys like these, I know what I'm talking about. I dont know what you're trying to prove, really. Thing is that the losses aren't actually shamefull at all.
What's shamefull is the cowardish attitude of believing that what other people think matters.
People who care about losses of others ignore that losses are needed to learn, that they themselves lost ships and that they are stupid idiots with no life who think it matters.
Removing killboards won't turn these children into grown-ups. |
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Paranoid Loyd
2988
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:17:18 -
[71] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Mate, you've clearly never done any frig pvp in plexes, otherwise you'd know it can go either way. Many guys, not saying all- but many don't go into fights because they don't want their loss on kb, coz they'd be ashamed for it. I know a few guys like these, I know what I'm talking about. I dont know what you're trying to prove, really.
You don't know anything about me (besides I suicide gank with this toon ) or what other toons I might have roaming around, so don't tell me what I have and haven't done. I have fought in plexes and I do know what I am talking about, it could be as simple as the fact that your toon is from 06 that so many people bail from fights from you, it could be you have other corp mates in the system and they think they will get blobbed if they take the fight, it could be they are just farming and are not even interested in fighting or it could be they don't want a fair fight and will only engage if they know/think they are going to win, none of these reasons have anything to do with kill boards except maybe the last one. As far as you not saying all, please see the title of your thread.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3593
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 23:20:49 -
[72] - Quote
orfkno
Oh god.
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Mashie Saldana
Lock'n'Point Warp to Cyno.
1247
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:22:32 -
[73] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Mate, you've clearly never done any frig pvp in plexes, otherwise you'd know it can go either way. Many guys, not saying all- but many don't go into fights because they don't want their loss on kb, coz they'd be ashamed for it. I know a few guys like these, I know what I'm talking about. I dont know what you're trying to prove, really. You don't know anything about me (besides I suicide gank with this toon ) or what other toons I might have roaming around, so don't tell me what I have and haven't done. I have fought in plexes and I do know what I am talking about, it could be as simple as the fact that your toon is from 06 that so many people bail from fights from you, it could be you have other corp mates in the system and they think they will get blobbed if they take the fight, it could be they are just farming and are not even interested in fighting or it could be they don't want a fair fight and will only engage if they know/think they are going to win, none of these reasons have anything to do with kill boards. As far as you not saying all, please see the title of your thread.
It seems you haven't read anything at all. I've convoed guys after they bailed from fights, many of them told me they're too scared to lose it BECAUSE of the killboard stats, I know guys who only fight in blobs because they're SO obsessed with green kb's.
I know a guy I do pvp with who's too scared to fly solo coz he doesn't want losses on his kb. |
Mharius Skjem
Opacity Circles
232
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 23:24:43 -
[74] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Remove killboards and they will think up another excuse to not fight you.
Now that clone grades have gone, there's one less on the list.
A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...
Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
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Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
178
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 23:25:47 -
[75] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Mate, you've clearly never done any frig pvp in plexes, otherwise you'd know it can go either way. Many guys, not saying all- but many don't go into fights because they don't want their loss on kb, coz they'd be ashamed for it. I know a few guys like these, I know what I'm talking about. I dont know what you're trying to prove, really. You don't know anything about me (besides I suicide gank with this toon ) or what other toons I might have roaming around, so don't tell me what I have and haven't done. I have fought in plexes and I do know what I am talking about, it could be as simple as the fact that your toon is from 06 that so many people bail from fights from you, it could be you have other corp mates in the system and they think they will get blobbed if they take the fight, it could be they are just farming and are not even interested in fighting or it could be they don't want a fair fight and will only engage if they know/think they are going to win, none of these reasons have anything to do with kill boards. As far as you not saying all, please see the title of your thread. It seems you haven't read anything at all. I've convoed guys after they bailed from fights, many of them told me they're too scared to lose it BECAUSE of the killboard stats, I know guys who only fight in blobs because they're SO obsessed with green kb's. I know a guy I do pvp with who's too scared to fly solo coz he doesn't want losses on his kb. And you blame killboards, instead of the people.
I'll give you a hint.
Next time you encounter a person that worries so much about what others think ... ... (and that's what this is actually about) ... ... you will threaten to hunt him and kill him over and over again until his killboard is ruined.
That'll fix it one way or the other. |
Mashie Saldana
Lock'n'Point Warp to Cyno.
1247
|
Posted - 2014.12.12 23:31:56 -
[76] - Quote
Sol Project wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Mate, you've clearly never done any frig pvp in plexes, otherwise you'd know it can go either way. Many guys, not saying all- but many don't go into fights because they don't want their loss on kb, coz they'd be ashamed for it. I know a few guys like these, I know what I'm talking about. I dont know what you're trying to prove, really. You don't know anything about me (besides I suicide gank with this toon ) or what other toons I might have roaming around, so don't tell me what I have and haven't done. I have fought in plexes and I do know what I am talking about, it could be as simple as the fact that your toon is from 06 that so many people bail from fights from you, it could be you have other corp mates in the system and they think they will get blobbed if they take the fight, it could be they are just farming and are not even interested in fighting or it could be they don't want a fair fight and will only engage if they know/think they are going to win, none of these reasons have anything to do with kill boards. As far as you not saying all, please see the title of your thread. It seems you haven't read anything at all. I've convoed guys after they bailed from fights, many of them told me they're too scared to lose it BECAUSE of the killboard stats, I know guys who only fight in blobs because they're SO obsessed with green kb's. I know a guy I do pvp with who's too scared to fly solo coz he doesn't want losses on his kb. And you blame killboards, instead of the people. I'll give you a hint. Next time you encounter a person that worries so much about what others think ... ... (and that's what this is actually about) ... ... you will threaten to hunt him and kill him over and over again until his killboard is ruined. That'll fix it one way or the other.
Of course I blame the people, killboard itself isn't guilty!
The people are the issue here!
Ah **** it, I'm exhaused..let's go bowling.
You've won ok? Let me be, I'm too old for this anyway. |
Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
91
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:35:28 -
[77] - Quote
The number one ranked character on zkillboard ran away from the alliance tournament. This alone speaks volumes on the value of killboard stats. |
Paranoid Loyd
2988
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Posted - 2014.12.12 23:41:36 -
[78] - Quote
Look man you are entitled to your opinion as much as I am, all I'm saying is you made a baseless claim encompassing everyone. I hate it when people do that. Do some people obsess over killboards stats? Of course. Does everyone that bails from a fight (especially one with someone who has most likely been around way longer than them) obsess over their killboard? No Do most people obsess over their killboard? Probably not, would be hard to properly quantify.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
208
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:04:31 -
[79] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Shelby Dusette wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote: what's your point?
Shadow Serpentis Warp Scrambler. I C wat U did there! Quote:I think killboards are fun. They're a nice, convenient summary of your fun time (or sadness) as well as a great intel and after-action tool. Most gamers love stats, numbers and spreadsheets about themselves, the game or other players and nothing wrong with that. It's a public record you can take pride (or horror) in. Sure, some people take it to extremes though like any other part of the game, but heh. http://i.imgur.com/Wujzy5l.jpg Well said. I tend to think that people who say "there would be more pvp without killmails/boards" are really saying " I would pvp more if my shameful losses were not made public, those public losses make me feel bad about myself and lets others ridicule me". It's basically a self-esteem issue.
Once you realize that you are the coolest cat you know life gets a lot more enjoyable. |
Sol Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
179
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 00:08:47 -
[80] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote:Of course I blame the people, killboard itself isn't guilty!
The people are the issue here!
Ah **** it, I'm exhaused..let's go bowling.
You've won ok? Let me be, I'm too old for this anyway. Boring! How about we get together in a non homosexual way and ruin some peoples killboards by jumping onto them while they are fighting others?
It seems that you know people who care enough to make this a worthwhile endeavour. |
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Steppa Musana
Republic University Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:18:41 -
[81] - Quote
PVP is just a different form of grinding for many players. Some players grind ISK, others grind killboard statistics. |
Ayx Shewma
0scope Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
71
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:34:41 -
[82] - Quote
Sol Project wrote:"killboard killboard"
Also, the issue isn't the killboard, but the people.
Unless you're a Nobel level geneticist, good luck changing people. we've been basically the same for hundreds of thousands of years and we'll still be basically the same 100,000 years from now.
It's easier and more effective in the near future, to just get rid of the damn killboards.
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Mijou Star
Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno.
15
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:38:43 -
[83] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:I have a little nasty daredevil with a faction web sitting in a lowsec station, but my corp/alliace wouldn't be happy if I lost it. I have a vindicator I'm eager to use in solo pvp, but my corp members would kill me if I caused 2 billion loss on KB. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. can guarantee alliance won't actually care about a faction web or we'd be nothing but a bunch of incredibly attractive hypocrites i personally don't care about a vindy on the board. ctq's lost expensive crap more than enough times in the past you have my permission as ctq's beauty pageant winner to explode hilariously
Confirming as long as you don't lose more then 1 super cap a month no one cares. |
Vestion Stenier-Tian
Icendus Corux Warp to Cyno.
20
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:42:30 -
[84] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote: If we're recruiting? Warp to cyno is a great alliance and we are a great corp full of brave men, so if you feel like joining, sure.
Just gonna jump in here and say, can confirm.
Also, only really care about alliance kb if someone has a **** fit or is in a mining barge. Dont really care about the isk or amount of losses, it shows activity if anything.
So basically, come join our alliance, we're really ******* good I promise <3 |
Mijou Star
Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno.
15
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:45:12 -
[85] - Quote
Sol Project wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:OP I just looked at your killboard, you are either the greatest PVPer in this game or you choose your fights wisely just like the people you are accusing of running from a fight because of the reasons you wanted to make up in your head. Greatest pvper? What are you talking about? You know people like Dalikah? :) I just lost a comet today because I turned on my reps too late..derp. You either completely missed my point or chose to ignore it. So why am I, in your opinion, one of the best pvpers? You can have 10 000 kills and 100 deaths but if most of the kills were blobs, it doesn't mean you're good. Most of my small gang/solo pvp kills are from 2014, and my K/D ratio and all isn't that awesome. Yes, after you spend years in low you learn how to fit and fly ships well, so getting small gang/solo kills isn't that hard. Instead of suicide ganking visit us dirty pirates in low :) You might like it. Where to go? In the spirit of your thread, I refuse to look up the information on your killboard. Please answer my questions, though: Do you mind combat probing 1400mm Tornados with the occasional cloak? Do you feel bothered by people who suddenly decloak and jam your side of the fight, while completely ignoring your enemies? Do you talk in local a lot?Are you recruiting?
i can answer this one.. yes we talk A LOT in local |
Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
15237
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:46:56 -
[86] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:The corporation my main resides in has one simple policy regarding Killboards: Don't post to them. *) Does that mean our kills/losses are not out there on those boards? Off course they are, probably mainly our losses. Is that relevant to us? Not in the slightest. The only relevant thing to us is having fun. And sometimes that leads to getting blown up. Big time.... *) We do use them for intel purposes though..... What is your corp so I can join it.
Bacon makes us stronger
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
14182
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Posted - 2014.12.13 00:55:11 -
[87] - Quote
Ayx Shewma wrote:Sol Project wrote:"killboard killboard"
Also, the issue isn't the killboard, but the people. Unless you're a Nobel level geneticist, good luck changing people. we've been basically the same for hundreds of thousands of years and we'll still be basically the same 100,000 years from now. It's easier and more effective in the near future, to just get rid of the damn killboards.
The people who run away from you will still run away and we all lose the ALOD.
We gain nothing and lose a good chunk of content.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11527
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 00:55:28 -
[88] - Quote
You should check out my killboard stats. I haven't lost a ship in 18 months!
Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."
-á-á - Abrazzar
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Daerrol
Death By Design Did he say Jump
8
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Posted - 2014.12.13 07:09:21 -
[89] - Quote
I have not seen any good pvp alliance that has the bahaviour OP describes. Sounds like Highsec wardec stuff. |
Remiel Pollard
Layman's Terms. Don't Tell Me The Odds
6181
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Posted - 2014.12.13 08:20:04 -
[90] - Quote
Mashie Saldana wrote: In my opinion, the public killboard is CANCER. It kinda reminds me of call of duty and kills/losses ratio.
Ah, now, back in the day, I'd be in agreement with you. However, as I've played the game I've learned how much intel the killboards can offer up on potential adversaries. That guy you're about to go after in that Prophecy, does he have any capitals or blops on killmails with it? If he does, he's probably cyno bait. So you get your own cyno and have your coalition standing by in their own stuff to counter.
What about that guy with all solo kills but a 90+ efficiency rating? He's probably not solo at all and has a logi alt nearby.
What are their favourite ships? Check their top monthly stats to see what they've been killing with lately, and how, etc.
I would estimate that 80-90% of the time, you can predict your opponent's moves just by his killboard alone. Personally, I don't put much stock in killboard stats as a reflection of anyone's ability. I got beat a few days ago by someone with a KB completely in the red, my Cynabal vs his Orthrus (I went and got revenge shortly after in a Fleet Scythe though). So while the killboards can show you someone's possible moves, they don't really show you how good they are, so never underestimate your opponent based on that.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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