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Reason58
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Posted - 2006.09.09 05:55:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all.
I started playing this game with 7 other friends from other MMOs, and as of now I am the only one left. One by one they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come.
I'm sure there are plenty of well though out arguments as to why these skills are essential, but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players... and probably in greater numbers than you realize.
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Anti Protagonist
Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.09 06:16:00 -
[2]
If the skills "literally do nothing for you" then why did you train them? What forces you to train the learning skills immediately? (nothing)
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Reason58
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Posted - 2006.09.09 06:22:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Anti Protagonist If the skills "literally do nothing for you" then why did you train them? What forces you to train the learning skills immediately? (nothing)
The only thing they do is decrease the training time of the real skills, the ones that actually have any affect on your character.
As for there being nothing forcing players to train them, that is obviously incorrect. New players are for all intents and purposes forced to train them so that they can start training skills at speeds comparable to every other player in EVE.
Look at it this way. If you intend to only play the game a short time then you can go without many learning skills and just jump right into the actual gameplay skills. If you intend to be an actual subscriber who plays this game for a an extended period of time, then you would literally be wasting weeks/months by ignoring learning skills. New players very quickly realize this, and they also very quickly realize just how long they have to spend training those skills up and it turns a lot of them off.
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Tsoplika
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Posted - 2006.09.09 08:33:00 -
[4]
Well I agree with you reason58.
Training learning skills is the most boring part of the game and it's made even worse because of the need to do it so early in the game. While there's no denying that they are absolutely necessary to anyone who intends to stay in Eve, this doesn't make training them any more appealing. After all, it's in these early days that someone makes the crucial decision to stay or leave the game.
My suggestion is simple: why not double the rate at which a new player gets to learn his first 2 million skill points. That way he is introduced faster and sooner to the more interesting parts of the game while at the same time he poses no threat to any experienced player. As we all know a player with less than 2 mil sp is extremely limited to what he can do (if not totally useless) so he should get a little help to be put on his way.
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Marine HK4861
Caldari Seoltachd
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Posted - 2006.09.09 08:39:00 -
[5]
In my opinion that's a good thing.
EVE rewards patience and intelligent gameplay. It's not a game for those who crave instant gratification - there are plenty of other games out there which can provide that.
I play EVE because I have other demands on my time and a game where I can still be competitive with game junkies who can afford to play 10+ hours a day is ideal.
A lot of new players are often amazed at the relative maturity of the EVE community and that's because, for better or worse, the EVE game system and learning curve keeps out the attention deficient 'l33t' style power gamers.
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BIG Builder
BIG R i s e
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Posted - 2006.09.09 09:42:00 -
[6]
The Learning skills, while important in the long run - don't matter too much early on. best bet is to learn a couple of levels of the skills you need and train the learnigs ones when you cannot play for a day | couple of days sort of thing - move them up slowly .
it is easy to get level 1 or level 2 in most early skills anyway
in my mind it would of been betetr for ccp to make the reuiremnts for advanced learnings to be level 4 of the learnign skills not 5 - there whould of been an advantage [slight] to newer player - and the hard core older ones would have them @ 5 anyway [then learnign the last level 5 of the normal ones would of been quicker]
-- Born to build BIG |
Korovyov
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.09.09 11:38:00 -
[7]
Originally by: BIG Builder in my mind it would of been betetr for ccp to make the reuiremnts for advanced learnings to be level 4 of the learnign skills not 5 - there whould of been an advantage [slight] to newer player - and the hard core older ones would have them @ 5 anyway [then learnign the last level 5 of the normal ones would of been quicker]
They need level 5 for the same reason barges need mining and astrogeology 4: the people most concerned had it trained already.
And if the long times bother you, put the 5's off until you're well under way with missions or mining or whatever your cup of tea is. The only time it matters is the "I have more SPs!" game, which you aren't going to win if you're just now joining us.
***
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Andreask14
Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.09 11:54:00 -
[8]
Yes, the learning skills slow your progress in the game, by two months initially.
Then again, EvE is a game that is build around an average lifespan of a character of 7 months, so it isnt that bad.
Just imagine these skills would have been rank 3 or more.
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.09.09 12:21:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 09/09/2006 12:22:54
Originally by: Korovyov
And if the long times bother you, put the 5's off until you're well under way with missions or mining or whatever your cup of tea is. The only time it matters is the "I have more SPs!" game, which you aren't going to win if you're just now joining us.
QFT ... it doesn't matter how many SP you have if know how to use your modules (though there might some skills which are imho a must-have like the capskills, the fitting and the tanking skills like engineering, mechanic and then the shield/armor skills) ... and it's still a trade-off.
if you learn the learnings from start - it will be quite boring - you won't be flying anything big ... but when it is done you can learn faster - but it still takes some time to catch up with someone who started at the same time as you and has learned module/ship related skills.
if you learn in the beginning ship relevant skills and switch the learning skills for some month 'til you reach higher rank/level skills - you'll still have fun playing the game. you can fly bigger ships with better overall stats then those who learned learnings.
e.g. i trained the learnings allmost from the begining (though i trained some frig related skill so far that i can use the needed modules) .. i flew allmost 3 month crappy frigs - i mean crappy in the sense of skillpoints ... i had 60k sp in gunnery and 1.8mio sp in learnings - guess what .. even if someone who hasn't trained the learnings he'd atleast accumulated 1.2-1.5mio sp (depending on starting attributes) ... and those skillpoints would have been in ship/module related skills, which means his weapons and shipssystem would be much more efficient than mine.
so in the first few month those newbies who trained the learnings are on a quite big disadvantage ... while the other newbies can have some fun.
for example: newbie #1 trains the learnings to adv. lvl4 ... he's spending around 2month of training and more than 1.8mio sp in them .. his average sp gain might be around 1.1mio sp per month newbie #2 trains straight for shipskills and stuff ... his average sp gain might 700k sp
so what? newbie #2 has after two month around 1.4mio sp in ships skills ... newbie 1 has allmost 0 sp in those skills. how long might it take for newbie #1 to CATCH up?? a bit more than 3 months ... so newbie #2 has actual around 5 month BETTER skills regarding ships and modules. if you believe the statistics that the average player stays 7 month - you only gain 800k more sp in the last two month of your stay.
and if you have the baseskills to use all essential modules quite well (lvl3 to 4 - where there's not so much difference in training time between those with and without learning skills) you're mostly only optimizing. which might not influence your gameplay that much than not beeing able/or beeing able to use certain ships/modules.
yeah - it's true - a newbie without the learnings will have the disadvantage when it comes to gain of SP ... but SP won't win you battles (at least to a certain point - it's more likely for a newbie to loose a battle in the initial phase where he doesn't have all necessary skills to use his ship proper - but look at the example above .. if you train learnings your initial phase will be substantial longer ... and when you're done with learnings and you caught up with newbie #2 .. you're allreay "optimizing" .. so that SP don't matter THAT much.)
so - no, i don't see a real point why the systems need changing ... only thing that needs changing are the "vets" that tell every newbie "train the learnings at the start or you'll loose eve!!!1!11 ___________________
-Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
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Naylon
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Posted - 2006.09.09 14:55:00 -
[10]
I have a second account. I trained the learning skills to 4 over the time I have had it. About 18months. I've only now started training the advanced learning skills, at the point when I already have 13mil SP on the account.
It's not been necessary. I'm already getting good results using PVP from the account, and NPCing in 0.0 where I am atm is no problem.
Advanced Learning skills should be a secondary consideration when you want to go for the bigger stuff such as BS 5 and so on.
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Dagam
Dagam Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.09 15:08:00 -
[11]
I agree with you Reason58, learning skills are a poor game mechanic that only serves to slow newbies down. But there's nothing we can change about it now.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.09 16:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Aramendel on 09/09/2006 16:12:42 IMO new chars should start with the basic learning skills on lvl 5. Cannot see anything but advantages by this.
And the "you do not have to train them" argument is crap. You do nothave to train anything. You can fly in shuttles for years if you want to - does not mean it is a good idea, though. While it is generally better to train a few basic skills before the lvl 5 basic learning skills - for example, I trained my first month for some basic skills to be able to do lvl 3 missions while I went into learning skill hell - it does notmatter much. If you *halfway* plan your skill progressing you *will* spend 33% of your first 6 months with learning skills.
Essentially those are some kinda of stupid "manhood ritual" for eve.
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Korovyov
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.09.09 16:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Aramendel IMO new chars should start with the basic learning skills on lvl 5. Cannot see anything but advantages by this.
And a full set of +3 implants? And a torp raven? And insta-BMs for the entire eve universe?
Just because everyone has it or uses it, doesn't mean CCP has to make it a starting crutch. And it would arbitrarily give something to new people for free, something that the vets waited for, and thus paid for (time is not free in EVE). This brings up the fact that CCP would lose a 2+ month time-sink that can be held over the perfectionists that come along. That's $30+ they lose.
Save the whales, BTW.
***
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.09.09 16:49:00 -
[14]
learning skills are the built in nubbin filter tbh
whiners Maybe not herpes, but I'll give ya goat!-Tirg |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.09 17:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Aramendel on 09/09/2006 18:03:08
Originally by: Korovyov And a full set of +3 implants? And a torp raven? And insta-BMs for the entire eve universe?
Those you get actively (doing missions, earning isk). You get these thing by playing the game. Training the basic learning skills you do passively. You do not have to play the game for this sans logging in to change skills now and then.
Huge difference.
Quote: This brings up the fact that CCP would lose a 2+ month time-sink that can be held over the perfectionists that come along. That's $30+ they lose.
Extremly flawed viewpoint.
Why would they "loose" these 30$? You would have to train 10 years+ to max all skills, so it's not like they would get bored faster if they would not have to train the basic learning skills.
In fact, it's the complete opposite. If a player who would have otherwise stayed 1 year or more quit because the boredom of the learning skill "grind" thats 150$+ they loose... Learning skills do not increase the amount of time a player keeps playing eve on average, they decrease it.
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Vizgoth
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Posted - 2006.09.09 18:49:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vizgoth on 09/09/2006 18:51:08 I like learning skills the way the are. This whole game is about trade offs and strategy at training your character for what you want to do. I have only been playing this game for 3 months. I have 2 accounts that pay for themselves with isk. My main I didnt start by training learning, I did missions while training to fly a cruiser. Got into a decent duramaller and then started learning. My other character I started with learning right away. The one I started with learning now has over 4 million sp with 1.8+ in learning All advanced to lvl 4 except char which is to lvl 4 basic skill. Now he is in an AF with pretty descent skills. While my main I am also now finished with all learning and about 3.8 million sp and can fly amarr BS (mainly used for mining op as tanker with 6 tech II mining lasers) and can do lvl 3's easily still using duramaller. So while I did not start learning first I still went back to them and I was able to play while they were training. It is all about being smart how you train. Besides, not everyone is interested in competing with the guys that have been around 3 years. I am in a 0.0 alliance and can mine with my corp and pvp with corp and still blow the **** of experienced players as a team. Even flying with just my own 2 characters I do well in pvp. Playing smart is all that matters.
Also by doing missions and mining with main both my characters now have full +3 implants to make it alot easier to train.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2006.09.09 19:07:00 -
[17]
I trained all basic learning skills to 3 in no time, then to 4 when planning to use that stat to learn lots of skills.
Once I had money to burn I would pick a learning skill, learn it to 5 and shell out the mucho-isk to get the advanced skill, which went to 3 pretty quick.
I now use the character manager to work out whether learning an advanced learning skill to 4 will cause much of an improvement in my immediate plans. If so then I learn it to 4. 5s can likely wait a while.
----- Russell T Davies is my master now. |
Esaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.09 19:15:00 -
[18]
I don't like the whole learning setup as well. I wouldn't mind to give every newbie lvl5 in every learning skill out there. Or remove the ability to learn 'advanced learning' within the first 2 months. It is one of the most unrewarding and annoying things in eve. Yes you don't need to do it, but literally everybody preaches "oh and get your learning skills up asap" and if everybody says so you have the tendency to follow the vets advice. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com |
000Hunter000
Gallente Dummy Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.09 19:31:00 -
[19]
ok no offence people but me and prolly most other vet of this game would then be very very ****ed off about that.
If ccp ever did that, they better give me: 1. my isk back that i wasted on the learning skillbooks and 2. give the time i used in training them back, which would do what? yes, give me like 1 or 2 months (not sure how much it exactly is) i could use on some other skills, increasing the headstart i have even more
hm... perhaps this isn't such a bad idea afterall hehehe. Banner will be updated shortly |
Yllse
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Posted - 2006.09.09 20:06:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Yllse on 09/09/2006 20:07:13 Edited by: Yllse on 09/09/2006 20:06:55
Originally by: Reason58 Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all.
The thing I see is that people force themselves into this kind of mega boredom then complain. My char is about a year old but I've played (and trained) about 7 months of that and, yes, I have all the advanced to 4 except charisma. The difference is, I made choices. I trained for mining and missions and trade and research and switched off with learning skills so they were never that painful.
Anyone who started in the last two years will never catch the top SP holders so why try? Play the game for fun and fit learning in where you can and when it doesn't hurt your gameplay. Even now, when I am working on adv. level 5 learning skills, I train them then see a skill "I gotta have right now," switch, train that up and go back to plugging on the learning.
I don't feel sorry for other noobs, like me, and you only have yourself to account to and to make the decisions you live and play by.
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Esaka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.09 20:09:00 -
[21]
Oh yeah, the poor poor vets... they have the time advantage anyways. If anybody had the right to complain it would be rather ppl like me who just went through the retarded learning phase. And if you're such a poor vet that has problems to spend the money for the learning books, then you fail at eve anyways. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com |
Croesus
Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.09 22:30:00 -
[22]
they should reduce the price on adv learning skills and they shold reduce the req to train them so you only have to train specific learning skill to 4 to start training adv learning skills.
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Croesus
Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.09 22:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: 000Hunter000 ok no offence people but me and prolly most other vet of this game would then be very very ****ed off about that.
I honestly doubt that.
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Kai'tural
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Posted - 2006.09.10 03:49:00 -
[24]
Personally i like the way it works now...i started playing the free trial in mid august..too lazy to check date srry...the option is there too increase learning times..which the way i see it will become handy for later on down the road when the training times become really really long..but right now im training a bunch of skills to lvl1-3....this usually doesnt take to long...train the ones ya can use to get the next little edge in your firepower,shields whatever...then you can play and not be bored when you do start on your learning skills....if you spread out your sp amongst a wide range of skills itl also give ya a decent feel for whats available fairly quickly...but without a major time investment or having to redo a character
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Morp p'LLoran
Redemption EnterpriseS Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.10 06:50:00 -
[25]
The problem is that new players get the wrong advice (ADVANCED LEARNING TO LVL4 FTW!!!!) If you do progressive training of your learning skills while also training the basic skills needed for your chosen profession, you will have fun, and be much further ahead of the noob who sat in the station training learnin skills to max. As an example, a missionrunner character that don't do learning skils will be in a decent Raven in about three to four months, running lvl 4s. With progressive learning skills, he will be in that Raven faster, running lvl 4'. He will also be about a mill+ SP ahead of the previous character, and will start to accelerate ahead in terms of skills gained at a rapid pace. Starting out with all learning skills, he will be there only slightly faster, but won't be able to run lvl 4's or have the funds to buy a Raven, plus he will most likely have quit due to extreme boredom.
CCP should maybe explain this better to the new player in the tutorial - there is not much benefit in training learnin skills before most of your basic skills are at lvl 3 or higher, and advanced learnin skills only really help when you start looking at lvl 4+ in a spesific skill.
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hangnoose
Caldari Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.10 07:36:00 -
[26]
Edited by: hangnoose on 10/09/2006 07:36:22 I didn't start on learning skills till 3 months into the game.... now about 8-9 months old I am just finishing them.
You don't need them early on all that much, take the first month or two to decide if you want to stick with eve, then train up the learning skills since they can take awhile to train. That way you can decide if you plan to stick with the game rather then getting the skills, training them, then thinking this game is boring and quitting.
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.09.10 11:21:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Morp p'LLoran ...there is not much benefit in training learnin skills before most of your basic skills are at lvl 3 or higher, and advanced learnin skills only really help when you start looking at lvl 4+ in a spesific skill.
This is incorrect.
Learning skills give you exactly the same speed boost over time. Does not matter if you spend 1 day training 3 skills to a next lvl or spend 1 day training 20% of one skill. It is not the boost per skill which matters, but the boost over time.
Originally by: hangnoose ...You don't need them early on all that much, take the first month or two to decide if you want to stick with eve, then train up the learning skills since they can take awhile to train. That way you can decide if you plan to stick with the game rather then getting the skills, training them, then thinking this game is boring and quitting.
It does not really matter when you train them for the effect they have. Boredom, resulting in increased disinterest for the game. It's the same at the start, after 1 months or 2 months. They simply do not "give" the game anything.
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Pestillence
Revelations Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.10 13:01:00 -
[28]
Originally by: 000Hunter000 ok no offence people but me and prolly most other vet of this game would then be very very ****ed off about that.
I doubt most other vets (myself included) are so self absorbed and selfish.
Learning skills are just one more timesink in a game that has more than it's fair share.
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Frank Draconian
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Posted - 2006.09.10 14:51:00 -
[29]
The point is that its driving away new players, and EVE needs to maintain a steady inflow of new subscribers if its going to stay up. I suggested once before that new players be given the learning skills for free, and all the players who had already trained them, would get an equivalent amount of SP to distribute freely. The skill guide stickied on this forum is what most new players will read when trying to figure out what path to take, and they're basing their bad decision on that. While there's a lot of vague advice about "getting into the game first" or alternating, etc. the skill guide provides a clear-cut definitive tree to follow. Maybe if someone could make a more newbie-geared guide to skill selection for the first few months, so we don't die of boredom, there would be fewer people who think eve is a boring game.
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Veetor
Gallente Acme Manufacturing
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Posted - 2006.09.10 16:20:00 -
[30]
The first time I got smashed in EVE I looked up the skills and equip needed to compete with my aggressor. A year nad a half. I'm not the instant gratification type but almost quit right there. "Im just meat for a year and a half!!??" I visited the forums and learned how to stay alive as a little fish. Most wont. This game needs a sandbox badly. It also needs a "usage based" skill "effectiveness" bonus. If you use your rails at long range a lot you get better results. If you train for them and switch you are stuck at "somewhat competent". This will give the oldtimers the bonus they deserve for being specialists and the noobs can try more stuff till they find their 'niche'. |
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