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Learning skills holding back this game?

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Reason58	Posted - 2006.09.09 05:55:00 - [1] Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all. I started playing this game with 7 other friends from other MMOs, and as of now I am the only one left. One by one they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come. I'm sure there are plenty of well though out arguments as to why these skills are essential, but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players... and probably in greater numbers than you realize.
Anti Protagonist Gallente Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2006.09.09 06:16:00 - [2] If the skills "literally do nothing for you" then why did you train them? What forces you to train the learning skills immediately? (nothing)
Reason58	Posted - 2006.09.09 06:22:00 - [3] Originally by: Anti Protagonist If the skills "literally do nothing for you" then why did you train them? What forces you to train the learning skills immediately? (nothing) The only thing they do is decrease the training time of the real skills, the ones that actually have any affect on your character. As for there being nothing forcing players to train them, that is obviously incorrect. New players are for all intents and purposes forced to train them so that they can start training skills at speeds comparable to every other player in EVE. Look at it this way. If you intend to only play the game a short time then you can go without many learning skills and just jump right into the actual gameplay skills. If you intend to be an actual subscriber who plays this game for a an extended period of time, then you would literally be wasting weeks/months by ignoring learning skills. New players very quickly realize this, and they also very quickly realize just how long they have to spend training those skills up and it turns a lot of them off.
Tsoplika	Posted - 2006.09.09 08:33:00 - [4] Well I agree with you reason58. Training learning skills is the most boring part of the game and it's made even worse because of the need to do it so early in the game. While there's no denying that they are absolutely necessary to anyone who intends to stay in Eve, this doesn't make training them any more appealing. After all, it's in these early days that someone makes the crucial decision to stay or leave the game. My suggestion is simple: why not double the rate at which a new player gets to learn his first 2 million skill points. That way he is introduced faster and sooner to the more interesting parts of the game while at the same time he poses no threat to any experienced player. As we all know a player with less than 2 mil sp is extremely limited to what he can do (if not totally useless) so he should get a little help to be put on his way.
Marine HK4861 Caldari Seoltachd	Posted - 2006.09.09 08:39:00 - [5] In my opinion that's a good thing. EVE rewards patience and intelligent gameplay. It's not a game for those who crave instant gratification - there are plenty of other games out there which can provide that. I play EVE because I have other demands on my time and a game where I can still be competitive with game junkies who can afford to play 10+ hours a day is ideal. A lot of new players are often amazed at the relative maturity of the EVE community and that's because, for better or worse, the EVE game system and learning curve keeps out the attention deficient 'l33t' style power gamers.
BIG Builder BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.09 09:42:00 - [6] The Learning skills, while important in the long run - don't matter too much early on. best bet is to learn a couple of levels of the skills you need and train the learnigs ones when you cannot play for a day \| couple of days sort of thing - move them up slowly . it is easy to get level 1 or level 2 in most early skills anyway in my mind it would of been betetr for ccp to make the reuiremnts for advanced learnings to be level 4 of the learnign skills not 5 - there whould of been an advantage [slight] to newer player - and the hard core older ones would have them @ 5 anyway [then learnign the last level 5 of the normal ones would of been quicker] -- Born to build BIG
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.09 11:38:00 - [7] Originally by: BIG Builder in my mind it would of been betetr for ccp to make the reuiremnts for advanced learnings to be level 4 of the learnign skills not 5 - there whould of been an advantage [slight] to newer player - and the hard core older ones would have them @ 5 anyway [then learnign the last level 5 of the normal ones would of been quicker] They need level 5 for the same reason barges need mining and astrogeology 4: the people most concerned had it trained already. And if the long times bother you, put the 5's off until you're well under way with missions or mining or whatever your cup of tea is. The only time it matters is the "I have more SPs!" game, which you aren't going to win if you're just now joining us. ***
Andreask14 Sensus Numinis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.09 11:54:00 - [8] Yes, the learning skills slow your progress in the game, by two months initially. Then again, EvE is a game that is build around an average lifespan of a character of 7 months, so it isnt that bad. Just imagine these skills would have been rank 3 or more.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.09 12:21:00 - [9] Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 09/09/2006 12:22:54 Originally by: Korovyov And if the long times bother you, put the 5's off until you're well under way with missions or mining or whatever your cup of tea is. The only time it matters is the "I have more SPs!" game, which you aren't going to win if you're just now joining us. QFT ... it doesn't matter how many SP you have if know how to use your modules (though there might some skills which are imho a must-have like the capskills, the fitting and the tanking skills like engineering, mechanic and then the shield/armor skills) ... and it's still a trade-off. if you learn the learnings from start - it will be quite boring - you won't be flying anything big ... but when it is done you can learn faster - but it still takes some time to catch up with someone who started at the same time as you and has learned module/ship related skills. if you learn in the beginning ship relevant skills and switch the learning skills for some month 'til you reach higher rank/level skills - you'll still have fun playing the game. you can fly bigger ships with better overall stats then those who learned learnings. e.g. i trained the learnings allmost from the begining (though i trained some frig related skill so far that i can use the needed modules) .. i flew allmost 3 month crappy frigs - i mean crappy in the sense of skillpoints ... i had 60k sp in gunnery and 1.8mio sp in learnings - guess what .. even if someone who hasn't trained the learnings he'd atleast accumulated 1.2-1.5mio sp (depending on starting attributes) ... and those skillpoints would have been in ship/module related skills, which means his weapons and shipssystem would be much more efficient than mine. so in the first few month those newbies who trained the learnings are on a quite big disadvantage ... while the other newbies can have some fun. for example: newbie #1 trains the learnings to adv. lvl4 ... he's spending around 2month of training and more than 1.8mio sp in them .. his average sp gain might be around 1.1mio sp per month newbie #2 trains straight for shipskills and stuff ... his average sp gain might 700k sp so what? newbie #2 has after two month around 1.4mio sp in ships skills ... newbie 1 has allmost 0 sp in those skills. how long might it take for newbie #1 to CATCH up?? a bit more than 3 months ... so newbie #2 has actual around 5 month BETTER skills regarding ships and modules. if you believe the statistics that the average player stays 7 month - you only gain 800k more sp in the last two month of your stay. and if you have the baseskills to use all essential modules quite well (lvl3 to 4 - where there's not so much difference in training time between those with and without learning skills) you're mostly only optimizing. which might not influence your gameplay that much than not beeing able/or beeing able to use certain ships/modules. yeah - it's true - a newbie without the learnings will have the disadvantage when it comes to gain of SP ... but SP won't win you battles (at least to a certain point - it's more likely for a newbie to loose a battle in the initial phase where he doesn't have all necessary skills to use his ship proper - but look at the example above .. if you train learnings your initial phase will be substantial longer ... and when you're done with learnings and you caught up with newbie #2 .. you're allreay "optimizing" .. so that SP don't matter THAT much.) so - no, i don't see a real point why the systems need changing ... only thing that needs changing are the "vets" that tell every newbie "train the learnings at the start or you'll loose eve!!!1!11 ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Naylon	Posted - 2006.09.09 14:55:00 - [10] I have a second account. I trained the learning skills to 4 over the time I have had it. About 18months. I've only now started training the advanced learning skills, at the point when I already have 13mil SP on the account. It's not been necessary. I'm already getting good results using PVP from the account, and NPCing in 0.0 where I am atm is no problem. Advanced Learning skills should be a secondary consideration when you want to go for the bigger stuff such as BS 5 and so on.
Dagam Dagam Corp	Posted - 2006.09.09 15:08:00 - [11] I agree with you Reason58, learning skills are a poor game mechanic that only serves to slow newbies down. But there's nothing we can change about it now.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.09 16:07:00 - [12] Edited by: Aramendel on 09/09/2006 16:12:42 IMO new chars should start with the basic learning skills on lvl 5. Cannot see anything but advantages by this. And the "you do not have to train them" argument is crap. You do nothave to train anything. You can fly in shuttles for years if you want to - does not mean it is a good idea, though. While it is generally better to train a few basic skills before the lvl 5 basic learning skills - for example, I trained my first month for some basic skills to be able to do lvl 3 missions while I went into learning skill hell - it does notmatter much. If you halfway plan your skill progressing you will spend 33% of your first 6 months with learning skills. Essentially those are some kinda of stupid "manhood ritual" for eve.
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.09 16:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Aramendel IMO new chars should start with the basic learning skills on lvl 5. Cannot see anything but advantages by this. And a full set of +3 implants? And a torp raven? And insta-BMs for the entire eve universe? Just because everyone has it or uses it, doesn't mean CCP has to make it a starting crutch. And it would arbitrarily give something to new people for free, something that the vets waited for, and thus paid for (time is not free in EVE). This brings up the fact that CCP would lose a 2+ month time-sink that can be held over the perfectionists that come along. That's $30+ they lose. Save the whales, BTW. ***
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.09.09 16:49:00 - [14] learning skills are the built in nubbin filter tbh whiners Maybe not herpes, but I'll give ya goat!-Tirg
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.09 17:59:00 - [15] Edited by: Aramendel on 09/09/2006 18:03:08 Originally by: Korovyov And a full set of +3 implants? And a torp raven? And insta-BMs for the entire eve universe? Those you get actively (doing missions, earning isk). You get these thing by playing the game. Training the basic learning skills you do passively. You do not have to play the game for this sans logging in to change skills now and then. Huge difference. Quote: This brings up the fact that CCP would lose a 2+ month time-sink that can be held over the perfectionists that come along. That's $30+ they lose. Extremly flawed viewpoint. Why would they "loose" these 30$? You would have to train 10 years+ to max all skills, so it's not like they would get bored faster if they would not have to train the basic learning skills. In fact, it's the complete opposite. If a player who would have otherwise stayed 1 year or more quit because the boredom of the learning skill "grind" thats 150$+ they loose... Learning skills do not increase the amount of time a player keeps playing eve on average, they decrease it.
Vizgoth	Posted - 2006.09.09 18:49:00 - [16] Edited by: Vizgoth on 09/09/2006 18:51:08 I like learning skills the way the are. This whole game is about trade offs and strategy at training your character for what you want to do. I have only been playing this game for 3 months. I have 2 accounts that pay for themselves with isk. My main I didnt start by training learning, I did missions while training to fly a cruiser. Got into a decent duramaller and then started learning. My other character I started with learning right away. The one I started with learning now has over 4 million sp with 1.8+ in learning All advanced to lvl 4 except char which is to lvl 4 basic skill. Now he is in an AF with pretty descent skills. While my main I am also now finished with all learning and about 3.8 million sp and can fly amarr BS (mainly used for mining op as tanker with 6 tech II mining lasers) and can do lvl 3's easily still using duramaller. So while I did not start learning first I still went back to them and I was able to play while they were training. It is all about being smart how you train. Besides, not everyone is interested in competing with the guys that have been around 3 years. I am in a 0.0 alliance and can mine with my corp and pvp with corp and still blow the **** of experienced players as a team. Even flying with just my own 2 characters I do well in pvp. Playing smart is all that matters. Also by doing missions and mining with main both my characters now have full +3 implants to make it alot easier to train.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.09 19:07:00 - [17] I trained all basic learning skills to 3 in no time, then to 4 when planning to use that stat to learn lots of skills. Once I had money to burn I would pick a learning skill, learn it to 5 and shell out the mucho-isk to get the advanced skill, which went to 3 pretty quick. I now use the character manager to work out whether learning an advanced learning skill to 4 will cause much of an improvement in my immediate plans. If so then I learn it to 4. 5s can likely wait a while. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Esaka Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.09 19:15:00 - [18] I don't like the whole learning setup as well. I wouldn't mind to give every newbie lvl5 in every learning skill out there. Or remove the ability to learn 'advanced learning' within the first 2 months. It is one of the most unrewarding and annoying things in eve. Yes you don't need to do it, but literally everybody preaches "oh and get your learning skills up asap" and if everybody says so you have the tendency to follow the vets advice. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com
000Hunter000 Gallente Dummy Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.09 19:31:00 - [19] ok no offence people but me and prolly most other vet of this game would then be very very ****ed off about that. If ccp ever did that, they better give me: 1. my isk back that i wasted on the learning skillbooks and 2. give the time i used in training them back, which would do what? yes, give me like 1 or 2 months (not sure how much it exactly is) i could use on some other skills, increasing the headstart i have even more hm... perhaps this isn't such a bad idea afterall hehehe. Banner will be updated shortly
Yllse	Posted - 2006.09.09 20:06:00 - [20] Edited by: Yllse on 09/09/2006 20:07:13 Edited by: Yllse on 09/09/2006 20:06:55 Originally by: Reason58 Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all. The thing I see is that people force themselves into this kind of mega boredom then complain. My char is about a year old but I've played (and trained) about 7 months of that and, yes, I have all the advanced to 4 except charisma. The difference is, I made choices. I trained for mining and missions and trade and research and switched off with learning skills so they were never that painful. Anyone who started in the last two years will never catch the top SP holders so why try? Play the game for fun and fit learning in where you can and when it doesn't hurt your gameplay. Even now, when I am working on adv. level 5 learning skills, I train them then see a skill "I gotta have right now," switch, train that up and go back to plugging on the learning. I don't feel sorry for other noobs, like me, and you only have yourself to account to and to make the decisions you live and play by.
Esaka Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.09 20:09:00 - [21] Oh yeah, the poor poor vets... they have the time advantage anyways. If anybody had the right to complain it would be rather ppl like me who just went through the retarded learning phase. And if you're such a poor vet that has problems to spend the money for the learning books, then you fail at eve anyways. -------------------------------------- Agent & Mission-Info: http://www.eveinfo.com
Croesus Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.09 22:30:00 - [22] they should reduce the price on adv learning skills and they shold reduce the req to train them so you only have to train specific learning skill to 4 to start training adv learning skills.
Croesus Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.09 22:33:00 - [23] Originally by: 000Hunter000 ok no offence people but me and prolly most other vet of this game would then be very very ****ed off about that. I honestly doubt that.
Kai'tural	Posted - 2006.09.10 03:49:00 - [24] Personally i like the way it works now...i started playing the free trial in mid august..too lazy to check date srry...the option is there too increase learning times..which the way i see it will become handy for later on down the road when the training times become really really long..but right now im training a bunch of skills to lvl1-3....this usually doesnt take to long...train the ones ya can use to get the next little edge in your firepower,shields whatever...then you can play and not be bored when you do start on your learning skills....if you spread out your sp amongst a wide range of skills itl also give ya a decent feel for whats available fairly quickly...but without a major time investment or having to redo a character
Morp p'LLoran Redemption EnterpriseS Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.10 06:50:00 - [25] The problem is that new players get the wrong advice (ADVANCED LEARNING TO LVL4 FTW!!!!) If you do progressive training of your learning skills while also training the basic skills needed for your chosen profession, you will have fun, and be much further ahead of the noob who sat in the station training learnin skills to max. As an example, a missionrunner character that don't do learning skils will be in a decent Raven in about three to four months, running lvl 4s. With progressive learning skills, he will be in that Raven faster, running lvl 4'. He will also be about a mill+ SP ahead of the previous character, and will start to accelerate ahead in terms of skills gained at a rapid pace. Starting out with all learning skills, he will be there only slightly faster, but won't be able to run lvl 4's or have the funds to buy a Raven, plus he will most likely have quit due to extreme boredom. CCP should maybe explain this better to the new player in the tutorial - there is not much benefit in training learnin skills before most of your basic skills are at lvl 3 or higher, and advanced learnin skills only really help when you start looking at lvl 4+ in a spesific skill.
hangnoose Caldari Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.10 07:36:00 - [26] Edited by: hangnoose on 10/09/2006 07:36:22 I didn't start on learning skills till 3 months into the game.... now about 8-9 months old I am just finishing them. You don't need them early on all that much, take the first month or two to decide if you want to stick with eve, then train up the learning skills since they can take awhile to train. That way you can decide if you plan to stick with the game rather then getting the skills, training them, then thinking this game is boring and quitting.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.10 11:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Morp p'LLoran ...there is not much benefit in training learnin skills before most of your basic skills are at lvl 3 or higher, and advanced learnin skills only really help when you start looking at lvl 4+ in a spesific skill. This is incorrect. Learning skills give you exactly the same speed boost over time. Does not matter if you spend 1 day training 3 skills to a next lvl or spend 1 day training 20% of one skill. It is not the boost per skill which matters, but the boost over time. Originally by: hangnoose ...You don't need them early on all that much, take the first month or two to decide if you want to stick with eve, then train up the learning skills since they can take awhile to train. That way you can decide if you plan to stick with the game rather then getting the skills, training them, then thinking this game is boring and quitting. It does not really matter when you train them for the effect they have. Boredom, resulting in increased disinterest for the game. It's the same at the start, after 1 months or 2 months. They simply do not "give" the game anything.
Pestillence Revelations Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.10 13:01:00 - [28] Originally by: 000Hunter000 ok no offence people but me and prolly most other vet of this game would then be very very ****ed off about that. I doubt most other vets (myself included) are so self absorbed and selfish. Learning skills are just one more timesink in a game that has more than it's fair share.
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.10 14:51:00 - [29] The point is that its driving away new players, and EVE needs to maintain a steady inflow of new subscribers if its going to stay up. I suggested once before that new players be given the learning skills for free, and all the players who had already trained them, would get an equivalent amount of SP to distribute freely. The skill guide stickied on this forum is what most new players will read when trying to figure out what path to take, and they're basing their bad decision on that. While there's a lot of vague advice about "getting into the game first" or alternating, etc. the skill guide provides a clear-cut definitive tree to follow. Maybe if someone could make a more newbie-geared guide to skill selection for the first few months, so we don't die of boredom, there would be fewer people who think eve is a boring game.
Veetor Gallente Acme Manufacturing	Posted - 2006.09.10 16:20:00 - [30] The first time I got smashed in EVE I looked up the skills and equip needed to compete with my aggressor. A year nad a half. I'm not the instant gratification type but almost quit right there. "Im just meat for a year and a half!!??" I visited the forums and learned how to stay alive as a little fish. Most wont. This game needs a sandbox badly. It also needs a "usage based" skill "effectiveness" bonus. If you use your rails at long range a lot you get better results. If you train for them and switch you are stuck at "somewhat competent". This will give the oldtimers the bonus they deserve for being specialists and the noobs can try more stuff till they find their 'niche'.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.10 17:35:00 - [31] Edited by: Aramendel on 10/09/2006 17:37:52 Originally by: Esaka There is a blog entry from Oveur which says that the average player stays for seven months. But it would be wrong to claim that eve is build around that timespan, given that Oveur says 'only' i'd think they're aiming for a higher average. It makes me wonder though how many player are going the advanced learning route and quit before they get anything out of it. People often confuse "average" with "most common" I think. For example, you can have 2 players which quit after 1 month and 1 who plays still after 1.5 years. This also gives you 3 "average" players of 7 months. Another thing are these two 2for1 offers so far. I would think those also created "population surges" since many older players created alt accounts then.
Vizgoth	Posted - 2006.09.10 17:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Veetor The first time I got smashed in EVE I looked up the skills and equip needed to compete with my aggressor. A year nad a half. I'm not the instant gratification type but almost quit right there. "Im just meat for a year and a half!!??" I visited the forums and learned how to stay alive as a little fish. Most wont. This game needs a sandbox badly. It also needs a "usage based" skill "effectiveness" bonus. If you use your rails at long range a lot you get better results. If you train for them and switch you are stuck at "somewhat competent". This will give the oldtimers the bonus they deserve for being specialists and the noobs can try more stuff till they find their 'niche'. Just because your aggressor has 40 mil sp doesnt mean you need that many. He could have 30 mil in industrial/mining or have them all in BS5 and Large TechII spec, but now is flying an AF. You might be able to take him with just 3-4 mil sp. OR get a friend and take him easier.
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.09.10 18:34:00 - [33] i was helping my corp pvp with less than 1.5million sp. -----------------------------------------------
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.10 21:13:00 - [34] Actually, this has largely been accounted for with the falling price of implants. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Bolt Crimson	Posted - 2006.09.11 05:17:00 - [35] i find this thread kinda funny. Yes, advanced learning skills to IV helps you alot. But you really don't NEED them. Is it important to you, to reach high SPs ASAP, or do you just want to enjoy the game? I'm still a new player, 7 days old. The first couple of days, was spent on getting basic learning skills to III, then some to IV. After that, i started to train various fun skills, and i'm now flying around in my Caracal with decent skills to back it up. Snip from another thread: "The Learning skill from level 4 to level 5: 243-406 Days (varies a lot player to player) The Advanced learning skills from level 4 to level 5: 3 Years, 235 Days, 11 Hours, 3 Minutes, and 38 Seconds The 5 Elite learning skills from level 4 to level 5: 5 Years, 191 Days, 20 Hours, 23 Minutes, and 41 Seconds (Note: The Elite Learning Skills currently are not a planned feature.) These ôpayoffö times are defined as the total skill points invested divided by the average improved training speed." Now, one can argue.. Is EVE really for me? Am i really that sure, from day one, that i want to start getting my advanced learning skills up fast? No, i'm not. Most are not. Why do you think so many drops out in that boring process? Mixing a bit of learning skills here, and a bit of 'fun' skills there, is the best way to go IMO. You get to experience the game, while still enjoying it. You won't have to feel like you make no progress at all, for the next 2 months.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.11 10:49:00 - [36] Bolt has the right idea. Learning skills are important, but having fun is more important. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.11 11:23:00 - [37] I did exactly the same thing as bolt at his "age". But the problem is not, I repeat: NOT that you "have" to train them at day 1. Also, that "you do not "need" to train them" is also no solution because it applies for everything in the game. There is not a single skill which you "have" to train. This enables you to avoid problems (for example, if ship A is a lot weaker than other ships you do not "have" to train for it) but does not remove the existance of said problems (ship A is still too weak). Training learning skills is, as Tripoli said in another thread "just a good idea". Realistically, the majority of all new players will train them sometime in their first 6 months. And yes, if you find a good guild where you can do stuff the learning skill phase can be less painfull. But note the "painfull". No matter when you do it or under which circumstances you do it, training the learning skills have a negative effect on your general fun of the game. All you really can do is some "damage control" to limit their effect. How do you call something which is decreasing your fun in a game? Bad design.
Severe McCald Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.11 11:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Aramendel In fact, it's the complete opposite. If a player who would have otherwise stayed 1 year or more quit because the boredom of the learning skill "grind" thats 150$+ they loose... Learning skills do not increase the amount of time a player keeps playing eve on average, they decrease it. That is complete rubbish. If a player has put in the effort to develop his or her learning skills to adv. 4, they will stay longer than if they had not. People who choose not to stay at all because of the perceived need (not actual need) to train learning skills from the start, are the ones that are lost to CCP. This is a well documented trait (known as cognitive dissonance) whereby we value things the more effort we put into acquiring/keeping them. I think CCP are well aware of the psychology involved Sev I saw a squirrel today jumping from one tree to another, the branch it landed on snapped. So the squirrel was on this falling branch, clambering like mad, thinking it was doing something about it.'
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.11 11:59:00 - [39] Edited by: Aramendel on 11/09/2006 11:59:30 Originally by: Severe McCald That is complete rubbish. If a player has put in the effort to develop his or her learning skills to adv. 4, they will stay longer than if they had not. People who choose not to stay at all because of the perceived need (not actual need) to train learning skills from the start, are the ones that are lost to CCP. How is training the adv. to 4 any different to training cruiser to 5 or in fact any other skills? It's the same investment for exactly the same effort. Does having more fun in that investment reduce it? Besides, you are missing the point. If we have 1 person "which stays longer" and 3 which quit because they got too bored during the learning "grind", is that a win or loss for CCP?
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.11 12:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Aramendel Besides, you are missing the point. No, he's not. You call it a grind, which is what it is. Everything in an MMO is a "grind" and if they get bored with EVE's style of grind, it doesn't matter, they're not going to stay. Giving them all the skills deemed "essential" isn't going to take away the grind. Their skills will advanced faster, but now they have to ISK grind. But you said we don't need to give them anything else to start, so hey, whatever. [And don't assume this thread will change anything. The arguement has been around for a very, very long time.] ***
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.11 12:41:00 - [41] Edited by: Aramendel on 11/09/2006 12:47:08 Originally by: Korovyov No, he's not. You call it a grind, which is what it is. Everything in an MMO is a "grind" and if they get bored with EVE's style of grind, it doesn't matter, they're not going to stay. So training the learning skills has for you the same enjoyment factor like training other skills? Quote: Giving them all the skills deemed "essential" isn't going to take away the grind. Their skills will advanced faster, but now they have to ISK grind. But you said we don't need to give them anything else to start, so hey, whatever. Again, since you ignored my last reply to this particular argument: Isk grinds you can effect yourself (and besides it isn't really hard to get isk if you know what to do once you have some start capital). The learning skill grind you cannot. You can only wait it out (implants can reduce it, but not by a significant amount). This is an huge difference. It's basically active vs passive. One you "solve" by doing stuff, one you "solve" by...waiting. Which do you think is leaps and bounds more boring?
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.11 12:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Reason58 Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12I started playing this game with 7 other friends from other MMOs, and as of now I am the only one left. One by one they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. People that stupid wouldn't have lasted long in Eve anyway. I presume you and they had rigged their attributes to suit exactly what they intended to do in Eve, and that they had a skill plan all set out in advance, and were never going to miss even a minute of training time by forgetting to set a skill training? That's the level of insanity you're talking about. It's pretty obvious if you have a clue about the skill system that the first few levels are worth doing early, as they only take a few days, but why go any further early on? To save a few hours, maybe a few days in long training plans? Diminishing returns FTL. Look at it this way, you say the learning skills hold noobs back. Say you're first objective is to get into a cruiser. This'll take a few weeks (assuming you go for decent support skills). So you can a) train the cruiser and then the learning skills or b) do the learning skills first to knock a few days off the cruiser training time, but add a month before it. In a you add a few days to your end total training time (you have years ahead of you, a few days is nothing), and get to fly around in your cruiser while grinding the learning skills. In b you spend ages with nothing to do, and get in your cruiser very late. A lot of Eve is tradeoffs like this. Gimp your tank slightly for a big increase in firepower. Buy stuff at higher prices closer so you can spend the travel time mining instead. Train your skills in such a way that you get access to some stuff now, and can use that stuff while grinding the support skills. If you can't get your head around this stuff, you're not cut out for the game. People who train learning skills on day one are on a par with people who sell manufactured goods below cost because minerals they mine themselves 'cost nothing'. ----------
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.11 13:14:00 - [43] Edited by: Korovyov on 11/09/2006 13:15:59 Originally by: Aramendel So training the learning skills has for you the same enjoyment factor like training other skills? Get a job. Walk the dog. Do something else. I don't spend 14 hours a day playing eve, every day. And now that I'm taking classes full time, yet again, I don't care. Something is grinding in EVE while I'm grinding in life. This game has no advantages for the "powerleveler." That's what WOW and the others are good for. Originally by: Aramendel Again, since you ignored my last reply to this particular argument: Isk grinds you can effect yourself (and besides it isn't really hard to get isk if you know what to do once you have some start capital). See my above statements. Some of us have obligations outside of the internet. Originally by: Aramendel The learning skill grind you cannot. You can only wait it out (implants can reduce it, but not by a significant amount). A full set of +3 implants took two weeks+ off the "full training skill" plan for me. And if you're rolling in isk, then I guess you're wrong. You can affect it with your playtime. (Of course, I was rolling in isk because I had a friend that let me 'borrow' his mining alt for two weeks.) Originally by: Aramendel This is an huge difference. It's basically active vs passive. One you "solve" by doing stuff, one you "solve" by...waiting. Which do you think is leaps and bounds more boring? Which is the fundamental difference between EVE and the rest and why level 5 learnings will never, ever be added to the starting slate. Have a real life? Fret not! You can fill that time with AFK timesinks! Meanwhile the powerlevelers wallow in "painful" training because they have to wait just like everyone else. But hey, they can grind out the 100+ mil isk for a full set of +3 implants. ***
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.09.11 13:37:00 - [44] The learning skills are ridiculous. Can someone name another game where you "level" slower than the norm for the first few months of the game? It's actually quite the opposite in all other cases. The first few months usually show the quickest advancement, a progression which tapers off as a player gets settled into the game. EVE, on the other hand, has a slow start, relatively quick mid progression (3-10 months), and a tapering off at the high end. It's just poor game design. An easy solution to this would be to drop the prerequisties for the advanced learning skills to level 4 in the basic learning skills. It's a snap to implement, doesn't punish the vets, and allows new players to get +7 to all attributes relatively quickly (basic +4, advanced +3). People can claim that "intelligent" players will stick around, but I beg to differ. Intelligent people understand how the system works, and if their goal is to fly some tech 2 ship, the fastest path to that goal is ALWAYS to train the learning skills ASAP. In this case, EVE rewards patience but punishes intelligence. The learning skills are a bizarre flaw in an otherwise brilliantly designed game.
Anders Chydenius Phoenix Industries	Posted - 2006.09.11 13:40:00 - [45] I don't think it's necessary at all. In fact, I think new players should get the skills they need to be effective in level 1 missions, then train learning while they accumulate enough money for a cruiser and fittings, then work the skills for level 2 missions, and so on. It took me 4 months to get my learning skills done, but I had the money to buy the advanced learning books when I needed them, and I had fun doing it. Learning skills became good 'overnight' skills very quickly. Too many people have the mindset that they MUST spend the first 2 months docked and training learning. I don't know if that's the way people really think, but that's certainly the way it comes across on the forums >< ------ {o,o} (__(\| -"-"- EVEMon
SuperID	Posted - 2006.09.11 14:04:00 - [46] Edited by: SuperID on 11/09/2006 14:05:50 Why were learning skills put into the game? Was it to simply decrease skill training time throughout a pilots career or was it because more of the higher rank skills started to appear? IIRC it was the latter and this was something that reduced the training time of the higher skills. Unfortunately the side effect is that the lower ranks skilled faster as well. Also to all the people comparing the time invested to time rewarded that is great if all skills relied on the same number of SPs but they don't. If you simply want a urinating contest on number of SPs then your arguments are correct. But if you try and compare to actual relevant skills learned then it will take some serious maths to work out the relative worth of a SP. Therefore some form of sliding scale would have to be used whereby you don't benefit from learning skills on low rank skills but on the higher ones only. This would mean that a Rank 8 skill would only get a boost if you had advanced learning of the requisites to 3 and it would only be a 1/2/3 point attribute increase (not the full 8 currently), conversely a rank 1 skill would benefit from relevant learning at level 1 and again a 1/2/3 point increase. Of course this puts implants and learning skills completely out of whack but to compare bonuses of learning with skill acquisition can never be a straight line as the benefits are never linear. I don't believe this will ever happen due to sheer complexity but there is no fair way to change a MMO halfway through it's simply a nerf to somebody and a boost to others.
Rad06	Posted - 2006.09.11 14:28:00 - [47] I am quite new to eve, but i think the learning system is fine. Newbies have to do the time in levels and learning in order to compete with the big guys. You have to work within your limits or join a corp and find where you can fit in there. I also will have advanced 3, learning 4 (except charisma) in about 10 days. I've traind a fair amount of other stuff that enables me to solo level 2's and some complex's. I've dome some mining as well. I may be of some assistance to team pvp but solo pvp is out of my range atm. It is all about trade-off's and your decisions. Work within your limits until you are fit to do more. Rad
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.11 15:15:00 - [48] Originally by: SuperID Edited by: SuperID on 11/09/2006 14:05:50 Why were learning skills put into the game? Was it to simply decrease skill training time throughout a pilots career or was it because more of the higher rank skills started to appear? IIRC it was the latter and this was something that reduced the training time of the higher skills. Unfortunately the side effect is that the lower ranks skilled faster as well. Also to all the people comparing the time invested to time rewarded that is great if all skills relied on the same number of SPs but they don't. If you simply want a urinating contest on number of SPs then your arguments are correct. But if you try and compare to actual relevant skills learned then it will take some serious maths to work out the relative worth of a SP. Therefore some form of sliding scale would have to be used whereby you don't benefit from learning skills on low rank skills but on the higher ones only. This would mean that a Rank 8 skill would only get a boost if you had advanced learning of the requisites to 3 and it would only be a 1/2/3 point attribute increase (not the full 8 currently), conversely a rank 1 skill would benefit from relevant learning at level 1 and again a 1/2/3 point increase. Of course this puts implants and learning skills completely out of whack but to compare bonuses of learning with skill acquisition can never be a straight line as the benefits are never linear. I don't believe this will ever happen due to sheer complexity but there is no fair way to change a MMO halfway through it's simply a nerf to somebody and a boost to others. the original basic learning skills were available on release. The advanced were added later.
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.11 15:29:00 - [49] The arrogance in one of the above posts is amazing. Nothing to drive players away from a game than someone calling newbies stupid, and telling them they aren't cut out, because they followed advice given in other sections of the forum. I played around with eve-mon and set up a training regiment into january. Nothing too fancy, just a basic combat setup with a few trade skills thrown in. Putting my learnings all together at the beginning, as opposed to splitting them up, saved me nearly a month, not just a few days. But I decided to go with the longer regiment, bc I know it would get boring.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.11 16:08:00 - [50] Originally by: Korovyov Edited by: Korovyov on 11/09/2006 13:15:59 Originally by: Aramendel So training the learning skills has for you the same enjoyment factor like training other skills? Get a job. Walk the dog. Do something else. I don't spend 14 hours a day playing eve, every day. And now that I'm taking classes full time, yet again, I don't care. Something is grinding in EVE while I'm grinding in life. This game has no advantages for the "powerleveler." That's what WOW and the others are good for. And this has what to do with learning skills not being fun? Originally by: Aramendel Again, since you ignored my last reply to this particular argument: Isk grinds you can effect yourself (and besides it isn't really hard to get isk if you know what to do once you have some start capital). See my above statements. Some of us have obligations outside of the internet. See the statement you quoted. A month ago I was visiting friends for 2 weeks and was actively online (aka not afk) for at most 30 minutes a day. I made about 100 mil in these 2 weeks simply by selling items I bought elsewhere using 200 mil starter capital. "Isn't really hard to get isk" means that you can do it with very little time investment. Nice try with the "OMG powergamer" argument, but it does not apply here. Originally by: Aramendel The learning skill grind you cannot. You can only wait it out (implants can reduce it, but not by a significant amount). A full set of +3 implants took two weeks+ off the "full training skill" plan for me. 2 weeks out of 2.5 months. If you have very low mem & int. A 20% reduction is, as said, no significant amount. Quote: Originally by: Aramendel This is an huge difference. It's basically active vs passive. One you "solve" by doing stuff, one you "solve" by...waiting. Which do you think is leaps and bounds more boring? Which is the fundamental difference between EVE and the rest and why level 5 learnings will never, ever be added to the starting slate. Have a real life? Fret not! You can fill that time with AFK timesinks! Meanwhile the powerlevelers wallow in "painful" training because they have to wait just like everyone else. But hey, they can grind out the 100+ mil isk for a full set of +3 implants. The training is painful for everyone. And just how exactly are the training skills needed as "AFK timesinks" when you have tons and tons of other skills? Those fill the role just nicely and give players actually a real sense of accomplisment because they have some direct improvment when they finish it.
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.11 16:29:00 - [51] Originally by: Aramendel I made about 100 mil in these 2 weeks simply by selling items I bought elsewhere using 200 mil starter capital. Nobody starts with 200mil. Which means you grinded until you had 200mil, you had a benefactor that donated you 200mil, or you bought 200mil with a GTC. None of which backs your arguement. Originally by: Aramendel A 20% reduction is, as said, no significant amount. Then there is no reason to train any skill beyond bare minimum at all. A turret skill, at most, gives 25% bonus, for example. If 20% is nothing, then you don't need any skills. And if you don't need any skills, why do you need to start with learning 5? ***
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.11 16:36:00 - [52] Originally by: Frank Draconian The arrogance in one of the above posts is amazing. Nothing to drive players away from a game than someone calling newbies stupid, and telling them they aren't cut out, because they followed advice given in other sections of the forum. I played around with eve-mon and set up a training regiment into january. Nothing too fancy, just a basic combat setup with a few trade skills thrown in. Putting my learnings all together at the beginning, as opposed to splitting them up, saved me nearly a month, not just a few days. But I decided to go with the longer regiment, bc I know it would get boring. My post was undeniably harsh, but accurate. A bunch of people bored themselves out of the game doing something voluntary. How is that not stupid? ----------
Reason59	Posted - 2006.09.11 16:53:00 - [53] For all the intelligence I see on these forums, it makes me sad to see that under the surface it is exact same community as WoW. I guess it's just human nature to lash out at people rather than work with them. It seems like this game isn't as much for me as I had originally thought. Regardless, as of last night I joined my friends in cancelling my account. A move which I am sure will receive much praise from the people calling me stupid. You won't have Nixon to kick around anymore, because, gentlemen, this is my last press conference.
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.11 18:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Reason59 For all the intelligence I see on these forums, it makes me sad to see that under the surface it is exact same community as WoW. I guess it's just human nature to lash out at people rather than work with them. Don't confuse internet forums with a real life town hall. Think of internet forums more like a nationalist rally to war, or woodstock. Just a bunch of people like me (see: nerds and clowns) posting drivel to make work/school/mining go by faster. And I sincerely hope you find your MMO that proves me wrong. ***
Cykles	Posted - 2006.09.11 19:14:00 - [55] WEll, I'm a Noob. And i've been reading this thread, and thought i'd throw my noobish perspective on this. Take it for what it's worth right, cause i am just a noob... But i'm coming up on ym second full month of game play. Now i'm not going to go into some silly mathmatics on time versus time of learning skills etc. and write out graphs, or pie-charts, i'm not even going to make an adhoc poll. I'm just gonna give my experience thus far. I haven't trained any learning skills, untill this morning. Didn't see much point to, at the time. And where am i now ? Well, i'm at about 1.1 million skill points. I have a huge selection of skills in Engineering and in Electronics. I am currently flying Ferox BC. and am doing fairly well if might say so. I've even Won, a few PvP fights. Yay for my team, right ? I also have some decent gunnery and missile skills for a guy thats been playing a month and a half. Right now, i'm working towards a Battleship. Why ? Cause well, doesn't everyone want a bad ass B.S. ? Maybe not, i do anyways... Because of the time requirements of 8 days to reach Cruiser 4, so that i can finally start learning the BS pilot skill.. I should mention i already meet all other requiremnts. So anyways, i just today started training any learning skills, to help knock some time off. So, basicly im over a million SP into the game, working my way through to some big ships, and can already pilot a few decent ones, and JUST started training learning skills. In my opinion ( noobly as it may be ) i don't feel the least bit hindered by this " learning skill " set up. I really don't see, again as a noob, how new players are harmed by NOT training them immediatly through either a lack of knowing what they do, or through an urgencyy to just do " stuff. " Like i said, i feel i'm fairly far along, as a new player and haven't but recently delved into learning skills. In short, in my perhaps under-inform opinion, i don't see any problems with whats in action now. Infact, i see them not as a mandate for immediate learning, but as an " hey, after you can finally do 'stuff' look into these " skills group.
Namarus Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.11 19:41:00 - [56] Originally by: Cykles WEll, I'm a Noob. And i've been reading this thread, and thought i'd throw my noobish perspective on this. Take it for what it's worth right, cause i am just a noob... But i'm coming up on ym second full month of game play. Now i'm not going to go into some silly mathmatics on time versus time of learning skills etc. and write out graphs, or pie-charts, i'm not even going to make an adhoc poll. I'm just gonna give my experience thus far. I haven't trained any learning skills, untill this morning. Didn't see much point to, at the time. And where am i now ? Well, i'm at about 1.1 million skill points. I have a huge selection of skills in Engineering and in Electronics. I am currently flying Ferox BC. and am doing fairly well if might say so. I've even Won, a few PvP fights. Yay for my team, right ? I also have some decent gunnery and missile skills for a guy thats been playing a month and a half. Right now, i'm working towards a Battleship. Why ? Cause well, doesn't everyone want a bad ass B.S. ? Maybe not, i do anyways... Because of the time requirements of 8 days to reach Cruiser 4, so that i can finally start learning the BS pilot skill.. I should mention i already meet all other requiremnts. So anyways, i just today started training any learning skills, to help knock some time off. So, basicly im over a million SP into the game, working my way through to some big ships, and can already pilot a few decent ones, and JUST started training learning skills. In my opinion ( noobly as it may be ) i don't feel the least bit hindered by this " learning skill " set up. I really don't see, again as a noob, how new players are harmed by NOT training them immediatly through either a lack of knowing what they do, or through an urgencyy to just do " stuff. " Like i said, i feel i'm fairly far along, as a new player and haven't but recently delved into learning skills. In short, in my perhaps under-inform opinion, i don't see any problems with whats in action now. Infact, i see them not as a mandate for immediate learning, but as an " hey, after you can finally do 'stuff' look into these " skills group. Absolutely well said. You don't have to do the learning skills immediately. When I started play, many years ago, I trained the learning skills up to around level 3 or so, and then did "more useful" piloting skills, until I felt I needed to train up the learning skills further. If anything the newer players have it easier than I did. We had no implants, ships/modules etc... were 100% to 300% more expensive than they were now.
Respectus Dominous Minmatar Option D Corp	Posted - 2006.09.11 20:27:00 - [57] Edited by: Respectus Dominous on 11/09/2006 20:30:30 I like one of the gentlement above said am a noob. And like him I'm enjoying this game greatly. I however went the other route and I'm still stuck in a destroyer. I have my learning skills up. My starting skills were Intelligence 8 Perception 4 Charisma 11 Willpower 4 Memory 12 As you can all see my character is in the worst possible position to be an ace pilot. But I don't look at it that way. I didn't join for the grind of fighting and blowing stuff up. I came in with the knowledge that this game doesn't require you to kill in order to advance because a friend of mine found this game specifically for me. I'm a bit of a gaming snob and games like WOW that the only way to get ahead is by killing plain and simply boor me to tears. No thought process involved simply kill and kill and kill..... and so on. To me I took on the chanllenge in this game that the worst stat character can still be effective and efficent in his ability to progress and while I didn't grind out 200mil in a month I did produce 40 mil through being smart about market trades and doing level 1 missions. Yet I do see value in acquiring bigger ships that require skill and time to increase my characters capabilities. Now I'm not crazy <GRIN> ..... ahem but without those learning skills I'm in a pretty bad spot. so I decided to work on them first and now listed below is my stat line after 1 month and 10 days. Now Intelligence 17 Perception 8 Charisma 15 Willpower 8 Memory 23 As you can see I've doubled my lowest stat's which means I'm working at half the time I would have to otherwise to achive my skills. but here is a comparison and if were gonna do this lets just do it for what the ultimate unattainable goal is max every friggin skill in this game <GRIN>. I'm looking at with all learning skills at max somwhere between 23 to 24 years but that's for everything. and yes I am that greedy. Now without 65 to 66 years. I might live a long time but to gain everything in a game, that is an extrodinarily long time for me to work on some skills. As for what I've read earlier about being forced to do learning skills- Plain and simple nope. I don't let anyone force me to do anything. Was I swayed by tripoli post to newbs. Nope I can do the math myself. Have I lost out on some arbitrary definition of fun. Hell no I'm having a blast especially since my friends who are going the I need to learn X to fly ship y route and I've been givning them money because they aren't making enough. I'm having a blast. My suggestion to my fellow newbs is only one thing if you boored it's your own fault. This game doesn't have any quick solutions and there is no quick way to get ahead. It's a time in equals results. This game is what you make it into and if it isn't your cup of tea there are plenty of other games out there. Have fun. P.S. I'll see you all in 23 years <GRIN>
Sight Unseen Amarr Ordo Adeptus Astartes Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.09.12 01:30:00 - [58] I like the learning skills, if they are treated properly. They key is finding a happy medium. The learning skills help even out porely constructed characters. with +3 implants and advanced learning its quite easy to get +12 to a current stat, making the actualy balance of characters less crippling. The entire eve skill system has been constructed around the concept of not letting the creation, those first five minutes or so, make or break your character and determine your enjoyment of the game. Sure the learning skills take ages, but thats OK. Lots of things in EVE take ages. I personaly decided to forgoe advanced learning skills, or even getting my current ones past 4 untill I could succesfuly pilot and equip a BC for level 3 missions. Now I'm working on my advanced learning skills, while earning significant money, allowing me to buy what i want+ any implants I need. The game is still fun, although for me the next good bit its going to be a timesink. The way I worked it made that timesink [ok. Everybody has thier own happy medium. Its not about min/maxing, its about enjoying the game while its still new =P --------------------------------------------- "Whats wrong little girl? Hard knock life?" "A roflcopter killed my entire family..." Oo!
Vechloran	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:01:00 - [59] I am a newb, I am training my learning skills to lvl5 as we speak. It's so boring and tedious that I want to shoot my self, multiple times. The one thing they REALLY should of done was make attribute advancement mission based and you could spend the first two months while learning the game also spent doing "storyline" missions to get your different characteristics up. Would it really be that hard to program? no the quest rewards would just be a new skill book, and with only one lvl per book to learn they can quickly learn their new gained treasure. (assuming 10 books per attribute, raising in difficulty for each mission). Skill learning is what makes this game interesting and characters so vastly different from each other. Learning skills though are a timesink of the korean MMO kind, aka boring/long/and hurt the growth of the game. Even after I have spent my time on learning these skills, I would still rather see this new system put in so others don't have to put up with it.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Korovyov Nobody starts with 200mil. Which means you grinded until you had 200mil, you had a benefactor that donated you 200mil, or you bought 200mil with a GTC. None of which backs your arguement. Learn to read? I said you need some starter capital for that. Also, I could have done the same thing with 20 mil as well, would just have had to make an afk trip to resupply once a day instead once a week. And getting that much is not that difficult. Originally by: Aramendel Then there is no reason to train any skill beyond bare minimum at all. A turret skill, at most, gives 25% bonus, for example. If 20% is nothing, then you don't need any skills. And if you don't need any skills, why do you need to start with learning 5? You are taking it out of context. The problem is that lvl 5 of the basic skills are the prerequs for he advanced learning skills. And those give you a bigger boost. And you cannot loose them. If they would only need lv 4 in the basic as Stephar suggested that would be ok, too.
Serious Bob	Posted - 2006.09.12 09:57:00 - [61] Grinding learnings to 5/4 immediately is boring. Not training the basic learning skills to 3 in the first week is really stupid. You get base + 12 * 1.06. For barely more than a days training.
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.12 11:49:00 - [62] Originally by: Aramendel Learn to read? Keep it civil. This is why the OP left. People result to insults to argue. The very fact that you have means that you just want to be right, you don't care about actual debate. So, have fun with your thread, because the OP left. ***
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:04:00 - [63] Originally by: Korovyov Originally by: Aramendel Learn to read? Keep it civil. This is why the OP left. People result to insults to argue. The very fact that you have means that you just want to be right, you don't care about actual debate. So, have fun with your thread, because the OP left. Try not making blanket statements that everyone who dislikes having to train learning skills must be a powerleveller with no life who should be playing WoW. Her point is one touched on by most in this thread, that training learning skills is holding back the enjoyment of the game. Even if there are ways to minimize the boredom yt slowing it down, like alternating learning and other skills, it still feels like a chore, but a necessary one to play the game.
Korovyov Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2006.09.12 12:28:00 - [64] Originally by: Frank Draconian Try not making blanket statements that everyone who dislikes having to train learning skills must be a powerleveller with no life who should be playing WoW. That wasn't me, that was you, just now. One last time... The long, boring, painful skill system of EVE is CCP's solution to ballancing the game between people who play every waking hour, and people who play a few hours each week. (AKA the Powerleveler, and the Person-Who-Doesn't-Have-Time.) If this system bothers you, then EVE is not your MMO. ***
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.12 13:22:00 - [65] Originally by: Korovyov Edited by: Korovyov on 11/09/2006 13:15:59 Originally by: Aramendel So training the learning skills has for you the same enjoyment factor like training other skills? Get a job. Walk the dog. Do something else. I don't spend 14 hours a day playing eve, every day. And now that I'm taking classes full time, yet again, I don't care. Something is grinding in EVE while I'm grinding in life. This game has no advantages for the "powerleveler." That's what WOW and the others are good for. Originally by: Aramendel Again, since you ignored my last reply to this particular argument: Isk grinds you can effect yourself (and besides it isn't really hard to get isk if you know what to do once you have some start capital). See my above statements. Some of us have obligations outside of the internet. Originally by: Aramendel The learning skill grind you cannot. You can only wait it out (implants can reduce it, but not by a significant amount). A full set of +3 implants took two weeks+ off the "full training skill" plan for me. And if you're rolling in isk, then I guess you're wrong. You can affect it with your playtime. (Of course, I was rolling in isk because I had a friend that let me 'borrow' his mining alt for two weeks.) Originally by: Aramendel This is an huge difference. It's basically active vs passive. One you "solve" by doing stuff, one you "solve" by...waiting. Which do you think is leaps and bounds more boring? Which is the fundamental difference between EVE and the rest and why level 5 learnings will never, ever be added to the starting slate. Have a real life? Fret not! You can fill that time with AFK timesinks! Meanwhile the powerlevelers wallow in "painful" training because they have to wait just like everyone else. But hey, they can grind out the 100+ mil isk for a full set of +3 implants. Yes it was you, as implied by this post :p
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.12 13:27:00 - [66] Originally by: Korovyov Originally by: Frank Draconian Try not making blanket statements that everyone who dislikes having to train learning skills must be a powerleveller with no life who should be playing WoW. That wasn't me, that was you, just now. One last time... The long, boring, painful skill system of EVE is CCP's solution to ballancing the game between people who play every waking hour, and people who play a few hours each week. (AKA the Powerleveler, and the Person-Who-Doesn't-Have-Time.) If this system bothers you, then EVE is not your MMO. again, this is the kind of attitude that drove the OP to quit. This essentially reads as : "critical of a certain aspect of eve? Then quit because you're obviously a stupid, immature powerleveller that should be playing WoW." even if you didn't say it explicity, it's the underlying attitude behind it.
Dagam Dagam Corp	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:26:00 - [67] Agreed. Korovyov you need to relax and stop pointing fingers.
icechip	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:43:00 - [68]
Flashflood	Posted - 2006.09.12 15:43:00 - [69] I been playing a month and a half, I fly a Ferox BC i have 5 heavys. I can do lvl 2 missions no problem. My learning skills are almost done, I can have a jump clone, i can fight, i can fly a good ship I dont see the valid complains about learning skills. Take your basics to lvl 3 dont take to long, get other skills up. Do your ship ones so you can fly a ship you like, Get basics do you can have basic stuff to have fun. The do your learning skills again. All the basic skills that you need take under a hour each. Right now all lvl 3 fighting skills are 1h 33m. I have higher skills that are lvl 4 some that are lvl 1 Biggest thing for new ppl is they need to figure out what ship/ weapon system and how there gonna make there money so they can specialize there skills and focus. If you do that in a few months you can hang with the corp in 0.0 Mix the skills up have fun. I have already got 600k SP in learning skills and over over 600k in fighting skills ( dont plan to mine ). Its the game take it as it is. I love the game cause i can have a life, and i can play other games and play this one. This is the casual persons game UNLIKE WOW that requires alot of time at lvl 60.
Reincarnator Amarr Brute Force Missions inc	Posted - 2006.09.12 16:37:00 - [70] God is this argument still goin on? The solution isnt to remove learning skills. Instead, just be smart about what you train. Don't train the learnings up right away if you cant have fun while they are training. The problem isnt the skills, its people's attitudes towards those skills. Quote: You will never quote this sig! QFT
Niccolado Starwalker Syncore Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.13 12:49:00 - [71] Originally by: Vechloran I am a newb, I am training my learning skills to lvl5 as we speak. It's so boring and tedious that I want to shoot my self, multiple times. This is where you do your first mistake. If you just sit there and watch the skill point count down timer, yes, its boring. BUT, its not part of the game as such! The game is roaming the space - mining, PvP fighting, ratting, trading etc. making friends. podding enemies. In general: HAVING FUN! While you are waiting for the skills to complete! Think of this. I have currently completed training Gallente Battleship level 5. It took me 44 days... Now I have just started on Battlecruiser level 5. this one will take me 33 days. If I should shoot myself each time I trained a long skill, I would be looking very much like a cheese right now. If you feel you cant have fun in EVE before the skills are complete, then you play the wrong game. Because you can!!!
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.09.13 14:58:00 - [72] A good arguement can be made for giving all current players sp equal to all the learning skills. Then from here on out starting newbs with learning skills maxed. Wherever you went - here you are.
Benco97 Gallente Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.13 15:15:00 - [73] The problem is that new players come on and the first thing they do is say "How do I get the best?" Nobody is forced to train those skills at all, you train them for a BONUS. I REALLY have gotten tired of all the whining posts complaining about how their stats are broken and they need to re-roll their char, thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard in this game, it's not a race, no matter what your attribs are you can still train every skill and use every module, who cares if personB can use moduleX before you? nobody does, suck it up and train it yourself instead of complaining that some people have already got it. Sorry. Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (F.A.G) and Registered Fedo breeder
Qual Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.13 17:45:00 - [74] Learning skills are nice to have. Not a must have. I did train them to level 5 more or less right after start 3 years back, sure. But I had played the beta and made the calculations. I Knew I wanted to be ehre till teh lights go out, so training them would likely be a good investment (provided EVE survived more than 12 months). Now my alts... Different story. They trained them as needed, alas when I found out that I wnated to keep them around, and they had a basic usefullness. When to train them is all part of the stategy of play. I short: If you have an attentionspan of less thatn a year, dont train 'em to much. [TBA] "The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf
Sol Flare Caldari The White Star Consortium	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:50:00 - [75] I wasn't able to read all of these posts... but let me just pass on the way that I trained my learning skills and maybe that will help others that feel that you have to train them from day one. First... Pick a target such as Frig you want to fly (normally lvl 3 is required) check the ship for its bonuses (turrets,missiles,mining) then SET A PLAN!!! Expect to take your skills to at least 2 or 3 then move to the next... but train your ship skills while you play and your learning skills as you sleep and go to work... I would come home from work, log in, change my skill to something in my PLAN log off and and take care of things around the house until my normal play time or just before I went to bed... then I would log back on.. switch skills and go. Also you don't have to FINISH a skill... you can switch at any time and your progress will be saved. In the first month you shouldn't have to take learning skills past 3... catch yourself up in other skills or you are just missing out on all the fun! Eventually you will see a time you can start spending some more time in the learning skills again. Important thing to remember... MAKE A PLAN and then follow it.
Frash Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.09.13 18:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Marine HK4861 In my opinion that's a good thing. EVE rewards patience and intelligent gameplay. It's not a game for those who crave instant gratification - there are plenty of other games out there which can provide that. I play EVE because I have other demands on my time and a game where I can still be competitive with game junkies who can afford to play 10+ hours a day is ideal. A lot of new players are often amazed at the relative maturity of the EVE community and that's because, for better or worse, the EVE game system and learning curve keeps out the attention deficient 'l33t' style power gamers. You do need to realize that EVE is losing those new players to other games, because of patience and intelligent gameplay. Video games in general are all about instant gratification. EVE has pro's and con's about this. Yea you can train a few skills and rat/do missions, but to do anything worth while you need to spend months training. Powergamers will never feel the need to login and play, it won't speed up or slow down their progress. I'm sure people that don't play much during the week, but play a lot on the weekends feel the same way. Its good and bad as you can see, but I think everyone but the hardcore EVE player is leaning with the OP. Don't like EVE-Radio.com? Try ETN.FM or Afterhoursdjs.com
Calantas	Posted - 2006.09.14 09:47:00 - [77] Upping the learning skills right when you first start Eve is incredibly stupid. I don't say that to attack the people that do it, but to attack the idea of it. People who say "if you're not willing to put up with it Eve is not for you" are not being realistic at all. When you first start any game you should be getting into the meat of it, trying it out to see if you like it. You might be willing to do it because YOU know you want to play Eve long enough for it to pay off, a new player does not have that luxury. If your first 2 months in the game consists of "log on every hour/day and click a new skill" you'll get bored and move on. Would you play a game where the only "gameplay" was logging in to click skills and then afking/logging off? That is not Eve, Eve is meant to be played and for the skills to improve you over time. You can't do that until you have enough skills to get around in more than the ultra-crappy starter ship (or some other goal if you are noncombat, I wouldn't know). Also, what is the difference between training all the learning skills on day 1 and learning them all after a month? How much do you save from learning skills? 10%? 20%? I'm sure the exact number is in this forum somewhere but I cbf'd looking it up, but suffice to say it's only going to cost you up to a week at most. That's nothing at all if you are going to be playing Eve long enough for learning to pay off. Learning skills are fine I think, upping them right away as a newbie is NOT okay however. It leads to boredom and quitting. The advice every newbie needs to get is "get enough skills to get a start in what you intend to do in Eve and get the learning skills up once you can play AND learn at the same time." OR maybe CCP could make it so learning skills are tagged with "cannot be learnt on a trial account" or somesuch so people actually have to play the game sometime before they get given the ultimatum to pay up or quit.
Cipher7 Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2006.09.14 11:03:00 - [78] Learning skills are overrated. If I started over I would do the following : Basic learning to 3 by the first week. Basic learning to 4 by the first month. Int/Per to Adv 3 by the first year. That's it, thats all I would train. You gotta realize, we have different kinds of personalities. To some this game is about skillpoints. Those are the ones doing the adv skills. To some this game is about economy. They study market and do trade. To me this game is about ships and war. As long as I have a reasonable SP generation rate, I really don't care if I lose a few days/weeks/months in the long run. Long as I get to have fun and shoot stuff, that's all I really want to do.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.14 13:55:00 - [79] Edited by: Adonis 4174 on 14/09/2006 13:55:04 Um... Guys? When I started the basic set of +1 implants would set you back over 5M with the cheapest being 600K for the social chip. The social chip now costs 90K with the full set costing around 3M. People starting now can get their stats up quicker for this reason. +1 mem still costs as much as it always did in my region, probably because of being primary for learning skills, but +1 int has halved in price. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
LoganFire Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.14 14:57:00 - [80] Originally by: Reason58 Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all. I started playing this game with 7 other friends from other MMOs, and as of now I am the only one left. One by one they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come. I'm sure there are plenty of well though out arguments as to why these skills are essential, but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players... and probably in greater numbers than you realize. 30 thousand players must be wrong then FEEL THE QUAM
Tareen Kashaar eXin Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.14 15:29:00 - [81] Originally by: Dagam I agree with you Reason58, learning skills are a poor game mechanic that only serves to slow newbies down. But there's nothing we can change about it now. TBH, it only slows newbies down because the community is so helpful - I kept being told "Do your learning skills first" when I joined the game... of course I didn't have any clue at all, looked at my char sheet and saw the skill "Learning", trained it to 5 instantly - but then went and trained fun skills :) There's nothing that forces you to train Learning really. As with many things in eve, it's a question of investment & reward. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
Reais Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.14 23:35:00 - [82] Simple really, give all of us with the learning skills trained a +3 permament modifier on all attributes above the current max, make our current learning skills modifier's permanent then start all new characters with the (total of) +10 modifier, where all of us will have a +13... I'd be happy with that
TotensBurntCorpse Minmatar Miners of Moria Corp	Posted - 2006.09.15 00:06:00 - [83] Originally by: Reason58 I started playing this game with 7 other friends now I am the only one left. they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come. but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players cut ur question a bit... EVE is time pit not leveling Learning requires some resources and investment Blowing off learning blows off developing ur character as u have starting attributes (ie u can use learning to focus in attributes u want to grow) lose learning then lose implants then lose what ???? more skills soon the complaint is time means i will never level up to older players then out goes time and we are left with what ? everquest ? skills and character development are time. if u lose interest in the game in the first month then you prob would never play long anyways so why even bother with learning skills??? seems ur complaint is really get rid of attributes ??? then how do we do skill advancement??? TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty. Dislikes Not much.
ZigZag Joe The Republican Guard The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.15 00:54:00 - [84] Personaly, I just trained skills to get me going playing the game and am just now getting to learning skills(adv and such). That way I've never become "stuck" on a skll grind so I could just play the game. I did however train the basic learning skills to atleast 3; that was very much worth it. (6 months old charactor) << zigzag forever. >>
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.15 01:01:00 - [85] Originally by: LoganFire Originally by: Reason58 Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all. I started playing this game with 7 other friends from other MMOs, and as of now I am the only one left. One by one they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come. I'm sure there are plenty of well though out arguments as to why these skills are essential, but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players... and probably in greater numbers than you realize. 30 thousand players must be wrong then FEEL THE QUAM That's a very small suscriber base compared to most mmo's, and how many of those are multiple account holders? It's quite common for veteran players on here to have more than one account running at once.
Viktoria Maher	Posted - 2006.09.15 02:54:00 - [86] Compared to WoW, who's subscriber base is measured in millions, 30,000 is small indeed. Learning skills are bad because they are basically a speed-hump. They delay you getting what you want and only pay off if you stick with the game for a long time. That said, I trained mine up to adv. 4 very early on and am now catching up to where I would be if I had just gone straight for the useful skills.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.15 11:05:00 - [87] We got 150.000 subscribers, 30.000 online at the same time.... And if you're gonna quit in 2 months anyway learning skills where pointless to train anyway.
Usotsuki	Posted - 2006.09.15 13:18:00 - [88] ok Training skills up using repetition (ie. your gunnery skills go up the more you use guns) is just begging to be exploited by 3rd party macro apps. Any nub programmer can write an app that simulates mouse clicks. Plus it rewards power gamers too much. And games like this always suck. One that comes to mind is RF Online, a totally decent/fun game (try not to think about the pointy ears) completely ruined by the above mentioned skill system. Eve's system is excellent imo. The strength of your character (ignoring player skill) is based on ISK and skills. Power gamers can sit there playing 23 hours a day making loads of ISK, but their skills won't go up any faster than someone who plays one hour a day. The dichotomy between ISK and skills is the best system i've ever seen in an mmo. Rewarding for both power gamers and casual gamers. Back on topic, i simply don't understand how anyone can spend the first 2-3 months training nothing but learning skills.. The fact that people have done it and actually stuck with eve is miraculous.
Trojanman190 Caldari Everlasting Impact	Posted - 2006.09.15 15:06:00 - [89] Most players who shell out money for a subscription based game do so intending to stay for a prolonged period of time. So, logically, you would want to be time efficient with your learning skills, so you would train them to 5/4. But you really arent doing much else in that time. I dont have a problem with this system [not because im done mine...] except for the fact that it really DOES drive away new players. More people in the Eve universe will never be a bad thing [unless they all hang out in Jita =D ]. I too have convinced many of my friends to try the game only to have them leave after they get frustrated with the learning skills. I do think there needs to be another system implemented... if only because it would be nice to have more players playing this game.
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.09.15 16:21:00 - [90] Edited by: Skraelingz on 15/09/2006 16:22:07 Originally by: LoganFire That's a very small suscriber base compared to most mmo's, and how many of those are multiple account holders? It's quite common for veteran players on here to have more than one account running at once. 30k small? uhh its actually 140,000... 30k was just the most on at once average is about 20,000 somthing. hey it could be worse this could be daoc where you cant even break 1000 on a single server during primetime let alone 30,000 on all the servers combined. http://mmogchart.com/Chart2_files/Subscriptions_11327_image001.gif Thats the july chart couldnt find a later one, but assume the same trends. -----------------------------------------------
Caliwyrm O'Libr	Posted - 2006.09.15 17:27:00 - [91] Originally by: Adonis 4174 I trained all basic learning skills to 3 in no time, then to 4 when planning to use that stat to learn lots of skills. Once I had money to burn I would pick a learning skill, learn it to 5 and shell out the mucho-isk to get the advanced skill, which went to 3 pretty quick. I now use the character manager to work out whether learning an advanced learning skill to 4 will cause much of an improvement in my immediate plans. If so then I learn it to 4. 5s can likely wait a while. QFT. Saying that you need to max out your learning skills as early as possible is a left over min/maxing learned in other MMORPGs. Even with a 14 day trial you can take every basic learning skill from 1-3 in a single day. If you really want level 4 you can set it to train at night when you (finally) log off. As someone just starting out in the game it simply doesn't make sense to spend 7d training a learning skill to 5 just to shave 1 hour off training another skill to level 3 or 4. (ie. The returns for taking something like Analytical Mind to 5 isn't worth it until you start getting to the 28d or longer trains, IMHO) An exception could be for an alt that you plan on keeping around for a long time, but they then you already know the game mechanics and probably have utilities like EveMon.. Sure, learning skills to 5/advanced learning skills help but they are hardly NECESSARY for new players since Learning Skills to 3 or 4 will suffice with hardly any real time investment.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.15 18:57:00 - [92] Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr ...As someone just starting out in the game it simply doesn't make sense to spend 7d training a learning skill to 5 just to shave 1 hour off training another skill to level 3 or 4. (ie. The returns for taking something like Analytical Mind to 5 isn't worth it until you start getting to the 28d or longer trains, IMHO)... Training speed boost is identical for a rank 1 lvl 1 skill or a rank 14 lvl 5 skill. For example, +1 to all attributes gives you a bit more than 2k additional skillpoints per day, independant if you spend the day training 100 lvl 1 skills or 1 lvl 5 skill. The time when it is "best" to train the advanced learning skills is not dependant on the training time of the skills you want to train, but is when you think that your char can suffer the 2 month learning skill deadlock and still keep operational in the game.
Frank Draconian	Posted - 2006.09.15 21:43:00 - [93] I think we are all in agreement, generally. But the first time I joined Eve, the skill system was very off-putting. It is completely different from any RPG, even going back to the old pen & paper ones, so it takes some time to get used to, and to see its benefits. I could very much see how a lot of new people would not understand how to best utilize learning skills, when there are sections in this forum listing the optimal skill tree and such. So when people come and are frustrated about it, why not give friendly advice instead of acting all snotty and superior because you've been playing longer?
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.15 22:15:00 - [94] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Caliwyrm O'Libr ...As someone just starting out in the game it simply doesn't make sense to spend 7d training a learning skill to 5 just to shave 1 hour off training another skill to level 3 or 4. (ie. The returns for taking something like Analytical Mind to 5 isn't worth it until you start getting to the 28d or longer trains, IMHO)... Training speed boost is identical for a rank 1 lvl 1 skill or a rank 14 lvl 5 skill. For example, +1 to all attributes gives you a bit more than 2k additional skillpoints per day, independant if you spend the day training 100 lvl 1 skills or 1 lvl 5 skill. This is true if you are time indifferent. However, humans are not and I can prove it. If you offer somebody ú10 today or ú20 in a year's time they will take the ú10 even though the better offer is for the ú20. The reason for this is that a year is a long time, a lot can happen in a year and missing out on the extra tenner isn't so great a problem. Also, the perceived benefit of an increase in speed isn't about sp/day it's about % increase in speed. No coincidence that my last advanced learning skill to 4 is Eidetic Memory and I'm a Detei. Wow, I get a whole 3% increase on most of my planned skills involving Memory primary according to the character manager. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:30:00 - [95] Originally by: Adonis 4174 This is true if you are time indifferent. However, humans are not and I can prove it. If you offer somebody ú10 today or ú20 in a year's time they will take the ú10 even though the better offer is for the ú20. The reason for this is that a year is a long time, a lot can happen in a year and missing out on the extra tenner isn't so great a problem. This has nothing to do with this. Also, with this argumentation would apply on the advanced learning skills people would never train them. Quote: Also, the perceived benefit of an increase in speed isn't about sp/day it's about % increase in speed. No coincidence that my last advanced learning skill to 4 is Eidetic Memory and I'm a Detei. Wow, I get a whole 3% increase on most of my planned skills involving Memory primary according to the character manager. But this is exactly the point. Increase in speed is progress over TIME. People look at a lvl 4 skill and see they "only" get 1 hour less with the advanced learnings so think it is not worth it, then look at a lvl 5 rank 5 skill and see they get 1 day less and think that is worth it. But they completely ignore that the first skill takes 1 day to train and the latter 24 days. Saving 1 hour at a 1 day skill and saving 1 day at a 24 day skill is exactly the same speed increase. sp/day and % increase in speed is the same thing here. Of cource, the effective speed boost is lower for attributes which you have already high. But this still does not change anything here. Does not matter if your int/mem is 5 or 15, the learning speed boost you get for a lvl 1 or lvl 5 skill is the same (for lvl 1 vs lvl 5 with 5 int and lvl 1 vs lvl 5 with 15 int respectively, not 5 int vs 15 int).
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.16 10:50:00 - [96] I get really tired of the noobies have it rough! Lets give noobies a break with skills. Well f*** that. Noobies now have it easy. They can buy implants and learning skills that us old players did not have for the first YEAR of the game. Are noobs going to be as good total skill point wise as older players, no. Will they get SP faster that the old players, yes! Why, because for the first year I had a max SP gain of 17k SP per day. Now I have average of 51k, but the noobs that enter the game now have race choises that have better attributes, have all the learning skills available now, and all the implants. With very little effort noobs can achieve an average of 35k SP per day with in a few months. So, quit whining about how noobies have it so bad! svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Calantus Reik	Posted - 2006.09.16 11:11:00 - [97] Originally by: Aramendel But this is exactly the point. Increase in speed is progress over TIME. I think the point is more that you can train a whole bunch of quick skills before learning and you won't have lost much benefit from learning. You could train yourself into a battleship plus fittings in the time it takes to train a skill to level 5 for instance. So it's not so much that you save less per skill when they are fast, but that because they are so fast you wont lose all that much time by doing them before heavy learning.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.16 13:21:00 - [98] Originally by: Calantus Reik I think the point is more that you can train a whole bunch of quick skills before learning and you won't have lost much benefit from learning. Of cource. I was saying that the benefit you get form learning is independant to the skill training time, not that you have to train learning skills before everything else. As said: The time when it is "best" to train the advanced learning skills is not dependant on the training time of the skills you want to train, but is when you think that your char can suffer the 2 month learning skill deadlock and still keep operational in the game. Quote: You could train yourself into a battleship plus fittings in the time it takes to train a skill to level 5 for instance. Actually you cannot because BS size guns/missles need lvl 5 in gunnery/missle launcher to use them in the first place.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.16 13:50:00 - [99] Edited by: Adonis 4174 on 16/09/2006 13:50:44 Originally by: Aramendel sp/day and % increase in speed is the same thing here. False. Let's say I have INT 20 and PER 5 +1 int gives a 5% increase in speed, +1 per gives a 20% increase in speed, both give the same increase in sp/day (I know I've ignored secondary attributes in this example) Quote: Increase in speed is progress over TIME. However, the next ten minutes are worth more than the ten minutes after that which are worth more than the ten minutes after that. This is time preference, humans are impatient. Thus the feel of the benefit is only felt when you can quickly make up the time lost training the skill. However, if you spend 5 days training a learning skill to take 3 days off your next skill then the time you actually lost training the learning skill is only 2 days, so the benefit comes much quicker. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Aya Otosaki	Posted - 2006.09.16 14:47:00 - [100] Originally by: Miri Tirzan I get really tired of the noobies have it rough! Lets give noobies a break with skills. Well f*** that. Noobies now have it easy. They can buy implants and learning skills that us old players did not have for the first YEAR of the game. Are noobs going to be as good total skill point wise as older players, no. Will they get SP faster that the old players, yes! Why, because for the first year I had a max SP gain of 17k SP per day. Now I have average of 51k, but the noobs that enter the game now have race choises that have better attributes, have all the learning skills available now, and all the implants. With very little effort noobs can achieve an average of 35k SP per day with in a few months. So, quit whining about how noobies have it so bad! My, my arent we agressive. Looks to me that your a eve burnout that just joined rkk to add credability to your arguments on the forums. Atleast according to bob killboard. Tell you what, you can tell us to shut up when our sp whine exceeds the amount of whine we get from you vets about pos's. ok?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.16 16:00:00 - [101] Originally by: Adonis 4174 False. Let's say I have INT 20 and PER 5 +1 int gives a 5% increase in speed, +1 per gives a 20% increase in speed, both give the same increase in sp/day (I know I've ignored secondary attributes in this example) Read my whole post perhaps next instead of taking things out of context? Especially the paragraph after the text you quoted? Then you would have probably seen that for the actual issue I commented - namely the "effect" of learning skills on lvl 1 and lvl 5 skills - this is very much "true". It does not matter if you have a 1 per char or 100 per char. For one char you will get an 100% speed boost, for one a 1% speed boost. But this is completely meaningless for the matter at hand. The point is that the speed boost you get for each char is universal. The 1 per char will get a 100% boost for lvl 1, lvl 2, lvl 3, lvl 4 and lvl 5 skills. Meaning you do not need a 30 day skill to make the advanced learning skills "worth it". Also, as a sidenote, in case of your first exemple with memory even the argument with the speed boost is plain out wrong. If you have high memory getting +1 mem gives you a smaller bonus, yes. But it also lets you train the learning skill faster in the first place. It only gives you a 3% boost compared to a 4% boost for another attribute, but it also needs only 3 days to train instead of 4 days. The time invested : boost ratio is the same. Quote: However, the next ten minutes are worth more than the ten minutes after that which are worth more than the ten minutes after that. This is time preference, humans are impatient. Thus the feel of the benefit is only felt when you can quickly make up the time lost training the skill. However, if you spend 5 days training a learning skill to take 3 days off your next skill then the time you actually lost training the learning skill is only 2 days, so the benefit comes much quicker. What you "feel" is irrellevant. What is important is what happens in reality. And, again, the benefit comes not quicker. To repeat myself (again): But they completely ignore that the first skill takes 1 day to train and the latter 24 days. Saving 1 hour at a 1 day skill and saving 1 day at a 24 day skill is exactly* the same speed increase.* Train 24 1 day skills and you have saved 24 * 1 hour = a day. Train one 24 day skill and you have saved 1 day. The benefit comes back at the same speed. Actually, one might argue that it comes actually back "faster" with the 1 day skills. After 12 1 day skills you have already the direct benefit of having them all finished 12 hours earlier. After half of the 24 day skill you still have recieved no benefit at all.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.16 19:00:00 - [102] Where is the benefit in delaying your plans to make ISK on the offchance that a later plan will take less time to realise (so long as by then you have the ISK to make it happen)? Learning skills should take their place as part of a specific strategy, not in lieu of one. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.16 20:55:00 - [103] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Where is the benefit in delaying your plans to make ISK on the offchance that a later plan will take less time to realise (so long as by then you have the ISK to make it happen)? Learning skills should take their place as part of a specific strategy, not in lieu of one. Did I say something like that? Oh, wait, no, I did in fact say the complete opposite. The time when it is "best" to train the advanced learning skills is not dependant on the training time of the skills you want to train, but is when you think that your char can suffer the 2 month learning skill deadlock and still keep operational in the game. Are you even reading posts other than your own?
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2006.09.16 21:15:00 - [104] My fault. We are talking at cross-purposes over our definitions of "benefit". I stand by my learning skill strategy as quoted above, specifically that you train quick-to-train levels of the learning skills when available and slow-to-train (4s and 5s) when you plan to use those attributes a lot in the near future. ----- Russell T Davies is my master now.
Korosuke Shinko	Posted - 2006.09.17 04:30:00 - [105] You know, I think this who issue is one of competition. People want to "catch up" with other people by building up the learning skills and then doing the real ones. But really, CAN they do that? There are people who have been EVEing for a long time and are firmly entrenched in this universe. The best solution is for each individual to just do whatever they feel like, without regard to other people. Save yourself the hassle and plan your skills like there was nobody else in the universe. For the people who could easily spend 10 hours a day hacking away at small level goblins for a year so that they could enter a level 2 dungeon with a level 100 character, I would reccommend doing the learning skills first. Get your multipliers up, then go for the goodies. Delayed gratification. EXTREMELY delayed, but if you can do it, then go for it. If you're into the fast pace, gotta-do-something-all-the-time mentality, then do all the other, little stuff first. And when you have what you need to do for playing through as a beginner, then start to invest in some learning, while you're not doing anything else, or when you can't afford anything else. If you're like me, somewhere between the two, then do them both. Train up a level of frigate, then one of analytical mind, then one of mining, another into learning. When you can't afford other skills, or don't really need them at the moment, let your char train the heavy learning stuff while you build up money or have an adventure. It's less about time-management than it is about training based on your personal style. Sure, it's a competition, but you're already way behind other people and way ahead of the people after you. Take it easy and have fun, in whatever manner you define "fun".
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.17 13:04:00 - [106] Originally by: Aya Otosaki My, my arent we agressive. Looks to me that your a eve burnout that just joined rkk to add credability to your arguments on the forums. Atleast according to bob killboard. Tell you what, you can tell us to shut up when our sp whine exceeds the amount of whine we get from you vets about pos's. ok? Well, aren't you the clever little alt. When you actually have an arguement, try again. What I said was true, but why waste time with mewing noobies that want everything handed to them. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Aya Otosaki	Posted - 2006.09.17 13:32:00 - [107] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Originally by: Aya Otosaki My, my arent we agressive. Looks to me that your a eve burnout that just joined rkk to add credability to your arguments on the forums. Atleast according to bob killboard. Tell you what, you can tell us to shut up when our sp whine exceeds the amount of whine we get from you vets about pos's. ok? Well, aren't you the clever little alt. When you actually have an arguement, try again. What I said was true, but why waste time with mewing noobies that want everything handed to them. This is my main. but looking at your less then heroic efforts i wasnt sure if miri was yours. It was you who started to stir the hate. why did you do that when its almost obvious that you hardly play the game? oh and turning you ship around in your hangar does not count as playing.
Calantus Reik	Posted - 2006.09.17 16:02:00 - [108] Originally by: Aramendel Quote: You could train yourself into a battleship plus fittings in the time it takes to train a skill to level 5 for instance. Actually you cannot because BS size guns/missles need lvl 5 in gunnery/missle launcher to use them in the first place. Generally correct, but you can fit siege launchers and tech 1 torps with only Missile Launcher Op 4. It wouldn't surprise me if I was still wrong anyway though.
Ricky Starwalker	Posted - 2006.09.17 17:19:00 - [109] I'm a n00b, but I don't really mind the learning skills. As others have said, it's easy to get level 3 or 4 of those skills, and I certainly don't need them higher to learn a broad swath of other newb skills. Sure, I might shave 3 minutes off a 15-minute train, or 15 minutes off a 75-minute train, but I've already missed far more than that just by forgetting to log in at the right time, heh. Now that I've got a bunch of skills to level 4, the learning skills are looming larger, but again I don't mind: they give me something I can train when I know I won't be on for a couple days. And I like being required to decide about the trade-off between long-term and short-term goals. It's part of what makes Eve distinctive, to me anyway.
Aterna Minmatar M'8'S	Posted - 2006.09.17 18:09:00 - [110] After reading through this thread and finding the arguments in here being: "noobs need all learning to 5 at the start" "adv learning needs to have prereq of 4" "noobs dont need squat, they have to earn it like we did" "if we reduce the timesink, then they just have to make more money sooner" "People who spend 2 months doing nothing but training learning leave before they see the game." My response to argument 1: That would solve the problem of learning faster, but a noob is someone who doesn't know what they are doing. giving them all learning at 5 just speeds up their movement into ships that are too big for them. They spend less time sitting in small ships that they can afford to fly and lose. The longer it takes to get into a BS, the more time you have to learn how to fly your cruisers, and gain valuable experience that will let you fly a BS better Argument 2: This would benefit a noob somewhat, but they still have an initial month of agony to overcome. Argument 3: You aren't worth answering. Argument 4: If you give a person the ability to train rapidly into something they dont know how to fly, they end up spending a lot more money at the beginning, which is where it matters most, simply because their ability to make money is very low, compared to people with as few 4 or 5 months of experience and skills. It sets a steeper learning curve, which this game already has one thats like a [expletive] cliff. Argument 5: I'd tend to agree with this one, in that why play a game when there isn't anything to do but look at your noob ship in the hangar while you wait for a bar to fill? There isn't. But that's cool, I can play my Xbox instead. But wait, if that's all this is going to be for the next few months, then why bother to pay 15 a month? People mentioned how rewarding it was to see that next long skill finish, but for the first few months, most new players that go this route aren't even playing, they are logging on/off to change skills. there's no gratification in that. If they are actively playing, they are going to be losing ships, browsing the market, seeing that "jesus, i wish i could use that." That's when they break from their hallowed learning skill plan and start training skills that affect their performance... My personal experience with learning skills (I've been playing since march or april, I can't remember), is that initial ship skills, like the ability to fit an afterburner, armor/shield repper, plate, energized resist plates, webbers, cap rechargers and the like are more importan then getting learning up. And most of those modules only require 1 level of the required skills, so they take only minutes to train to use. Once I was able to use most of those skills, I went back and trained learning to 3 or 4. I bounced back and forth between learning and ship skills, slowly earning my way towards selected T2 modules like reppers and cap batteries. One thing i did that it looks like most people overlook, is that training up every single learning skill to adv 4 all at once, isn't as much of a benefit. I trained up the advanced skills i wanted, in order to learn certain skills quicker. I trained up Intelligence and Memory to learn Engineering, Mechanic, and Electronics skills quicker. I went back and trained Perception to advanced 3 for Drone skills, then I looked at Willpower and saw that from the requisite 7 or 8 days of training to go from basic 4 to advanced 4, i would only gain maybe 5 hours of time saved on a 12 day skill, I said F that and left it at 4. So i mixed my skill training and can now fly a damn good BC or cruiser, and I can sit in an assault frigate and in a few more days, T2 small guns to go with it. Summary: Mix ship skills with learning, it makes the game so much more rewarding.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.17 19:14:00 - [111] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/09/2006 19:25:00 Originally by: Calantus Reik Generally correct, but you can fit siege launchers and tech 1 torps with only Missile Launcher Op 4. It wouldn't surprise me if I was still wrong anyway though. Mhh.. true, I only checked cruise missles. But this is more the exeption than the norm. Originally by: Aterna My response to argument 1: That would solve the problem of learning faster, but a noob is someone who doesn't know what they are doing. giving them all learning at 5 just speeds up their movement into ships that are too big for them. They spend less time sitting in small ships that they can afford to fly and lose. The longer it takes to get into a BS, the more time you have to learn how to fly your cruisers, and gain valuable experience that will let you fly a BS better That is a bit too generalized. Not every person has the same learning curve and it also depends on what you are doing. For example, if you spend 6 months only flying missions with a raven and then go into 0.0 "to pown people"...well. Also, this is assuming people do the lvl 5 basic + advanced learning skills before getting into BSs. People can without them easily get into a BS within a month right now. Getting into them - if you really want to - a week earlier wouldn't change much there. Most new players have to learn the "do not fly something you cannot afford to loose" rule by practise.
Vasco Falcon	Posted - 2006.09.18 18:38:00 - [112] Edited by: Vasco Falcon on 18/09/2006 18:39:52 A couple of weeks into the game i made a post about learning skills and i remain 150% convinced their just a tedious time sink, many new players in my rookie corps are told to train them up first as myself did not knowing any better and if it wasnt the for the fact im determind to make a go of it in Eve i would have quit over it as several said they were and have done in my npc corps. I dont see what harm it would do giving +10 on each stat at charactor creation phase so people who could start learning interesting ship related skills instead of this nonsense, even with stat boots it still takes many many many long months before the charactor is a good all rounder in the best ships anyway.
Liam Accademy	Posted - 2006.09.19 13:50:00 - [113] I always say to the newcomers to do like this: Train the skill needed for do what you like without concerning at learning for like 1 week, for exemple if you like mining train your mining cruiser and your lvl4 mining, then, depending on what you would like to do, train the relative learning to about 4 in this way: I need to do lvl4 in a skill using perception, ok i trian lvl4 perception then i make that skill, when i need something with primary skill willpower i do the same, this is for the lvl4 trainings, then after like 1 month you will have about all the 4 primary learning to lvl4, then you will start working on something at level 5.. at that stage you make the same, but you make lvl5 of the related learning and then istantly lvl3 of the advanced (just for the realy short train time), and you do the same for all the others, and the learnig skills will be "splitted" in plenty of months for complete but you will never have to wait 1 month without skilling and at same time you don't lose the learning skills, the more time your skill need the more lvl of advanced you learn, until everything lvl5 :) I always say to do like this and people are happy with it.

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