Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Serious Bob
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 09:57:00 -
[61]
Grinding learnings to 5/4 immediately is boring. Not training the basic learning skills to 3 in the first week is really stupid. You get base + 12 * 1.06. For barely more than a days training.
|
Korovyov
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 11:49:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Aramendel Learn to read?
Keep it civil.
This is why the OP left. People result to insults to argue. The very fact that you have means that you just want to be right, you don't care about actual debate.
So, have fun with your thread, because the OP left.
***
|
Frank Draconian
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 12:04:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Korovyov
Originally by: Aramendel Learn to read?
Keep it civil.
This is why the OP left. People result to insults to argue. The very fact that you have means that you just want to be right, you don't care about actual debate.
So, have fun with your thread, because the OP left.
Try not making blanket statements that everyone who dislikes having to train learning skills must be a powerleveller with no life who should be playing WoW. Her point is one touched on by most in this thread, that training learning skills is holding back the enjoyment of the game. Even if there are ways to minimize the boredom yt slowing it down, like alternating learning and other skills, it still feels like a chore, but a necessary one to play the game.
|
Korovyov
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 12:28:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Frank Draconian Try not making blanket statements that everyone who dislikes having to train learning skills must be a powerleveller with no life who should be playing WoW.
That wasn't me, that was you, just now.
One last time...
The long, boring, painful skill system of EVE is CCP's solution to ballancing the game between people who play every waking hour, and people who play a few hours each week. (AKA the Powerleveler, and the Person-Who-Doesn't-Have-Time.)
If this system bothers you, then EVE is not your MMO.
***
|
Frank Draconian
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:22:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Korovyov Edited by: Korovyov on 11/09/2006 13:15:59
Originally by: Aramendel So training the learning skills has for you the same enjoyment factor like training other skills?
Get a job. Walk the dog. Do something else. I don't spend 14 hours a day playing eve, every day. And now that I'm taking classes full time, yet again, I don't care. Something is grinding in EVE while I'm grinding in life.
This game has no advantages for the "powerleveler." That's what WOW and the others are good for.
Originally by: Aramendel Again, since you ignored my last reply to this particular argument: Isk grinds you can effect yourself (and besides it isn't really hard to get isk if you know what to do once you have some start capital).
See my above statements. Some of us have obligations outside of the internet.
Originally by: Aramendel The learning skill grind you cannot. You can only wait it out (implants can reduce it, but not by a significant amount).
A full set of +3 implants took two weeks+ off the "full training skill" plan for me. And if you're rolling in isk, then I guess you're wrong. You can affect it with your playtime. (Of course, I was rolling in isk because I had a friend that let me 'borrow' his mining alt for two weeks.)
Originally by: Aramendel This is an huge difference. It's basically active vs passive. One you "solve" by doing stuff, one you "solve" by...waiting. Which do you think is leaps and bounds more boring?
Which is the fundamental difference between EVE and the rest and why level 5 learnings will never, ever be added to the starting slate.
Have a real life? Fret not! You can fill that time with AFK timesinks!
Meanwhile the powerlevelers wallow in "painful" training because they have to wait just like everyone else. But hey, they can grind out the 100+ mil isk for a full set of +3 implants.
Yes it was you, as implied by this post :p
|
Frank Draconian
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 13:27:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Korovyov
Originally by: Frank Draconian Try not making blanket statements that everyone who dislikes having to train learning skills must be a powerleveller with no life who should be playing WoW.
That wasn't me, that was you, just now.
One last time...
The long, boring, painful skill system of EVE is CCP's solution to ballancing the game between people who play every waking hour, and people who play a few hours each week. (AKA the Powerleveler, and the Person-Who-Doesn't-Have-Time.)
If this system bothers you, then EVE is not your MMO.
again, this is the kind of attitude that drove the OP to quit. This essentially reads as : "critical of a certain aspect of eve? Then quit because you're obviously a stupid, immature powerleveller that should be playing WoW." even if you didn't say it explicity, it's the underlying attitude behind it.
|
Dagam
Dagam Corp
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 15:26:00 -
[67]
Agreed. Korovyov you need to relax and stop pointing fingers.
|
icechip
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 15:43:00 -
[68]
|
Flashflood
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 15:43:00 -
[69]
I been playing a month and a half, I fly a Ferox BC i have 5 heavys. I can do lvl 2 missions no problem. My learning skills are almost done, I can have a jump clone, i can fight, i can fly a good ship I dont see the valid complains about learning skills.
Take your basics to lvl 3 dont take to long, get other skills up. Do your ship ones so you can fly a ship you like, Get basics do you can have basic stuff to have fun. The do your learning skills again. All the basic skills that you need take under a hour each. Right now all lvl 3 fighting skills are 1h 33m.
I have higher skills that are lvl 4 some that are lvl 1 Biggest thing for new ppl is they need to figure out what ship/ weapon system and how there gonna make there money so they can specialize there skills and focus. If you do that in a few months you can hang with the corp in 0.0 Mix the skills up have fun. I have already got 600k SP in learning skills and over over 600k in fighting skills ( dont plan to mine ). Its the game take it as it is. I love the game cause i can have a life, and i can play other games and play this one. This is the casual persons game UNLIKE WOW that requires alot of time at lvl 60.
|
Reincarnator
Amarr Brute Force Missions inc
|
Posted - 2006.09.12 16:37:00 -
[70]
God is this argument still goin on? The solution isnt to remove learning skills. Instead, just be smart about what you train. Don't train the learnings up right away if you cant have fun while they are training. The problem isnt the skills, its people's attitudes towards those skills.
Quote: You will never quote this sig!
QFT |
|
Niccolado Starwalker
Syncore Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.09.13 12:49:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Vechloran I am a newb, I am training my learning skills to lvl5 as we speak. It's so boring and tedious that I want to shoot my self, multiple times.
This is where you do your first mistake. If you just sit there and watch the skill point count down timer, yes, its boring. BUT, its not part of the game as such! The game is roaming the space - mining, PvP fighting, ratting, trading etc. making friends. podding enemies. In general: HAVING FUN! While you are waiting for the skills to complete!
Think of this. I have currently completed training Gallente Battleship level 5. It took me 44 days... Now I have just started on Battlecruiser level 5. this one will take me 33 days. If I should shoot myself each time I trained a long skill, I would be looking very much like a cheese right now.
If you feel you cant have fun in EVE before the skills are complete, then you play the wrong game. Because you can!!!
|
Ghoest
|
Posted - 2006.09.13 14:58:00 -
[72]
A good arguement can be made for giving all current players sp equal to all the learning skills. Then from here on out starting newbs with learning skills maxed.
Wherever you went - here you are.
|
Benco97
Gallente Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.09.13 15:15:00 -
[73]
The problem is that new players come on and the first thing they do is say "How do I get the best?" Nobody is forced to train those skills at all, you train them for a BONUS. I REALLY have gotten tired of all the whining posts complaining about how their stats are broken and they need to re-roll their char, thats the stupidest thing i've ever heard in this game, it's not a race, no matter what your attribs are you can still train every skill and use every module, who cares if personB can use moduleX before you? nobody does, suck it up and train it yourself instead of complaining that some people have already got it. Sorry.
Head of the Fedo Appreciation Group (F.A.G) and Registered Fedo breeder |
Qual
Gallente
|
Posted - 2006.09.13 17:45:00 -
[74]
Learning skills are nice to have. Not a must have. I did train them to level 5 more or less right after start 3 years back, sure. But I had played the beta and made the calculations. I Knew I wanted to be ehre till teh lights go out, so training them would likely be a good investment (provided EVE survived more than 12 months).
Now my alts... Different story. They trained them as needed, alas when I found out that I wnated to keep them around, and they had a basic usefullness.
When to train them is all part of the stategy of play.
I short: If you have an attentionspan of less thatn a year, dont train 'em to much.
[TBA]
"The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf |
Sol Flare
Caldari The White Star Consortium
|
Posted - 2006.09.13 18:50:00 -
[75]
I wasn't able to read all of these posts... but let me just pass on the way that I trained my learning skills and maybe that will help others that feel that you have to train them from day one.
First... Pick a target such as Frig you want to fly (normally lvl 3 is required) check the ship for its bonuses (turrets,missiles,mining) then SET A PLAN!!! Expect to take your skills to at least 2 or 3 then move to the next... but train your ship skills while you play and your learning skills as you sleep and go to work...
I would come home from work, log in, change my skill to something in my PLAN log off and and take care of things around the house until my normal play time or just before I went to bed... then I would log back on.. switch skills and go. Also you don't have to FINISH a skill... you can switch at any time and your progress will be saved.
In the first month you shouldn't have to take learning skills past 3... catch yourself up in other skills or you are just missing out on all the fun! Eventually you will see a time you can start spending some more time in the learning skills again.
Important thing to remember... MAKE A PLAN and then follow it.
|
Frash
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2006.09.13 18:54:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Marine HK4861 In my opinion that's a good thing.
EVE rewards patience and intelligent gameplay. It's not a game for those who crave instant gratification - there are plenty of other games out there which can provide that.
I play EVE because I have other demands on my time and a game where I can still be competitive with game junkies who can afford to play 10+ hours a day is ideal.
A lot of new players are often amazed at the relative maturity of the EVE community and that's because, for better or worse, the EVE game system and learning curve keeps out the attention deficient 'l33t' style power gamers.
You do need to realize that EVE is losing those new players to other games, because of patience and intelligent gameplay. Video games in general are all about instant gratification. EVE has pro's and con's about this. Yea you can train a few skills and rat/do missions, but to do anything worth while you need to spend months training. Powergamers will never feel the need to login and play, it won't speed up or slow down their progress. I'm sure people that don't play much during the week, but play a lot on the weekends feel the same way.
Its good and bad as you can see, but I think everyone but the hardcore EVE player is leaning with the OP.
Don't like EVE-Radio.com? Try ETN.FM or Afterhoursdjs.com |
Calantas
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 09:47:00 -
[77]
Upping the learning skills right when you first start Eve is incredibly stupid. I don't say that to attack the people that do it, but to attack the idea of it. People who say "if you're not willing to put up with it Eve is not for you" are not being realistic at all. When you first start any game you should be getting into the meat of it, trying it out to see if you like it. You might be willing to do it because YOU know you want to play Eve long enough for it to pay off, a new player does not have that luxury.
If your first 2 months in the game consists of "log on every hour/day and click a new skill" you'll get bored and move on. Would you play a game where the only "gameplay" was logging in to click skills and then afking/logging off? That is not Eve, Eve is meant to be played and for the skills to improve you over time. You can't do that until you have enough skills to get around in more than the ultra-crappy starter ship (or some other goal if you are noncombat, I wouldn't know).
Also, what is the difference between training all the learning skills on day 1 and learning them all after a month? How much do you save from learning skills? 10%? 20%? I'm sure the exact number is in this forum somewhere but I cbf'd looking it up, but suffice to say it's only going to cost you up to a week at most. That's nothing at all if you are going to be playing Eve long enough for learning to pay off.
Learning skills are fine I think, upping them right away as a newbie is NOT okay however. It leads to boredom and quitting. The advice every newbie needs to get is "get enough skills to get a start in what you intend to do in Eve and get the learning skills up once you can play AND learn at the same time." OR maybe CCP could make it so learning skills are tagged with "cannot be learnt on a trial account" or somesuch so people actually have to play the game sometime before they get given the ultimatum to pay up or quit.
|
Cipher7
Dark and Light inc. D-L
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 11:03:00 -
[78]
Learning skills are overrated. If I started over I would do the following :
Basic learning to 3 by the first week.
Basic learning to 4 by the first month.
Int/Per to Adv 3 by the first year.
That's it, thats all I would train.
You gotta realize, we have different kinds of personalities.
To some this game is about skillpoints. Those are the ones doing the adv skills.
To some this game is about economy. They study market and do trade.
To me this game is about ships and war. As long as I have a reasonable SP generation rate, I really don't care if I lose a few days/weeks/months in the long run.
Long as I get to have fun and shoot stuff, that's all I really want to do.
|
Adonis 4174
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 13:55:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Adonis 4174 on 14/09/2006 13:55:04 Um... Guys?
When I started the basic set of +1 implants would set you back over 5M with the cheapest being 600K for the social chip.
The social chip now costs 90K with the full set costing around 3M.
People starting now *can* get their stats up quicker for this reason. +1 mem still costs as much as it always did in my region, probably because of being primary for learning skills, but +1 int has halved in price.
----- Russell T Davies is my master now. |
LoganFire
Quam Singulari Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 14:57:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Reason58 Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all.
I started playing this game with 7 other friends from other MMOs, and as of now I am the only one left. One by one they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come.
I'm sure there are plenty of well though out arguments as to why these skills are essential, but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players... and probably in greater numbers than you realize.
30 thousand players must be wrong then
FEEL THE QUAM
|
|
Tareen Kashaar
eXin Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 15:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dagam I agree with you Reason58, learning skills are a poor game mechanic that only serves to slow newbies down. But there's nothing we can change about it now.
TBH, it only slows newbies down because the community is so helpful - I kept being told "Do your learning skills first" when I joined the game... of course I didn't have any clue at all, looked at my char sheet and saw the skill "Learning", trained it to 5 instantly - but then went and trained fun skills :)
There's nothing that forces you to train Learning really. As with many things in eve, it's a question of investment & reward. --- WTS: Forum Signatures, 30mil a piece. Evemail me!
|
Reais
Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.09.14 23:35:00 -
[82]
Simple really, give all of us with the learning skills trained a +3 permament modifier on all attributes above the current max, make our current learning skills modifier's permanent then start all new characters with the (total of) +10 modifier, where all of us will have a +13...
I'd be happy with that
|
TotensBurntCorpse
Minmatar Miners of Moria Corp
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 00:06:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Reason58 I started playing this game with 7 other friends now I am the only one left. they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come. but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players
cut ur question a bit... EVE is time pit not leveling Learning requires some resources and investment Blowing off learning blows off developing ur character as u have starting attributes (ie u can use learning to focus in attributes u want to grow)
lose learning then lose implants then lose what ???? more skills soon the complaint is time means i will never level up to older players then out goes time and we are left with what ? everquest ?
skills and character development are time. if u lose interest in the game in the first month then you prob would never play long anyways so why even bother with learning skills???
seems ur complaint is really get rid of attributes ??? then how do we do skill advancement??? TotensBurntCorpse Likes EVE, Starfleet Command Series, Earth & Beyond, Anything Battlefield, MOHAA, Call of Duty.
Dislikes Not much. |
ZigZag Joe
The Republican Guard The Phantom Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 00:54:00 -
[84]
Personaly, I just trained skills to get me going playing the game and am just now getting to learning skills(adv and such). That way I've never become "stuck" on a skll grind so I could just play the game. I did however train the basic learning skills to atleast 3; that was very much worth it. (6 months old charactor)
<< zigzag forever. >> |
Frank Draconian
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 01:01:00 -
[85]
Originally by: LoganFire
Originally by: Reason58 Edited by: Reason58 on 09/09/2006 05:56:12 Well, in another week or so I'll finally be done training learning skills. It took about a month and a half to two months, and that is with advanced 3, learning 4, and not touching charisma at all.
I started playing this game with 7 other friends from other MMOs, and as of now I am the only one left. One by one they all quit because of the boredom of being essentially forced to invest such a large amount of time in skills that literally do nothing for you. The first month or so is the extremely crucial time when you are supposed to get new players hooked on the game so they'll be subscribers for many months or years to come.
I'm sure there are plenty of well though out arguments as to why these skills are essential, but the simple fact of the matter is that learning skills are pushing away potential new players... and probably in greater numbers than you realize.
30 thousand players must be wrong then
FEEL THE QUAM
That's a very small suscriber base compared to most mmo's, and how many of those are multiple account holders? It's quite common for veteran players on here to have more than one account running at once.
|
Viktoria Maher
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 02:54:00 -
[86]
Compared to WoW, who's subscriber base is measured in millions, 30,000 is small indeed.
Learning skills are bad because they are basically a speed-hump. They delay you getting what you want and only pay off if you stick with the game for a long time. That said, I trained mine up to adv. 4 very early on and am now catching up to where I would be if I had just gone straight for the useful skills.
|
Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 11:05:00 -
[87]
We got 150.000 subscribers, 30.000 online at the same time.... And if you're gonna quit in 2 months anyway learning skills where pointless to train anyway.
|
Usotsuki
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 13:18:00 -
[88]
ok
Training skills up using repetition (ie. your gunnery skills go up the more you use guns) is just begging to be exploited by 3rd party macro apps. Any nub programmer can write an app that simulates mouse clicks. Plus it rewards power gamers too much.
And games like this always suck. One that comes to mind is RF Online, a totally decent/fun game (try not to think about the pointy ears) completely ruined by the above mentioned skill system.
Eve's system is excellent imo. The strength of your character (ignoring player skill) is based on ISK and skills. Power gamers can sit there playing 23 hours a day making loads of ISK, but their skills won't go up any faster than someone who plays one hour a day.
The dichotomy between ISK and skills is the best system i've ever seen in an mmo. Rewarding for both power gamers and casual gamers.
Back on topic, i simply don't understand how anyone can spend the first 2-3 months training nothing but learning skills.. The fact that people have done it and actually stuck with eve is miraculous.
|
Trojanman190
Caldari Everlasting Impact
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 15:06:00 -
[89]
Most players who shell out money for a subscription based game do so intending to stay for a prolonged period of time. So, logically, you would want to be time efficient with your learning skills, so you would train them to 5/4. But you really arent doing much else in that time. I dont have a problem with this system [not because im done mine...] except for the fact that it really DOES drive away new players. More people in the Eve universe will never be a bad thing [unless they all hang out in Jita =D ]. I too have convinced many of my friends to try the game only to have them leave after they get frustrated with the learning skills.
I do think there needs to be another system implemented... if only because it would be nice to have more players playing this game.
|
Skraelingz
Gallente Gallente Federal Bank
|
Posted - 2006.09.15 16:21:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Skraelingz on 15/09/2006 16:22:07
Originally by: LoganFire
That's a very small suscriber base compared to most mmo's, and how many of those are multiple account holders? It's quite common for veteran players on here to have more than one account running at once.
30k small? uhh its actually 140,000... 30k was just the most on at once average is about 20,000 somthing.
hey it could be worse this could be daoc where you cant even break 1000 on a single server during primetime let alone 30,000 on all the servers combined.
http://mmogchart.com/Chart2_files/Subscriptions_11327_image001.gif
Thats the july chart couldnt find a later one, but assume the same trends. -----------------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |