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Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
192
   |
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:07:13 -
[1] - Quote
Please allow.
Do not allow cynos in high sec.
Do not allow sieging, triage, or industrial core activation in high sec.
Do not allow super capitals in high sec.
Make adjustments to carriers to prevent their combat abilities from being used without some kind of siege mode (that won't be allowed in high sec).
With this in place, let us move our caps around via gate travel in high sec. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
14324
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:15:51 -
[2] - Quote
If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
193
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:22:59 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place.
Nothing would be nerfed except the carriers, which need nerfing completely apart from any issue of high sec. The concept of unbridled firepower outside of a siege mode is the realm of the super cap. That carriers have monstrous power without a siege is fundamentally unbalanced anyway. It's why I have been on tower repping ops with the carriers boot fit. I think carriers should be given an extra high slot and be allowed to fit siege modules and require that the module be active in order to use drone cone control units and get drone number bonuses from the racial carrier skill.
Dreads wouldn't be nerfed at all. Rorqs wouldn't be nerfed at all. |
Catherine Laartii
Dominion Fleet Group
Templis CALSF
441
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place.
Aside from the bit about the carriers, at no point did he ever say anything about nerfing them. Carriers aren't that OP anyway so it would be fine to allow them to field their fighters, I think. |
Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD
Shadow Cartel
227
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:24:32 -
[5] - Quote
Lol |
Catherine Laartii
Dominion Fleet Group
Templis CALSF
441
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:25:48 -
[6] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place. Nothing would be nerfed except the carriers, which need nerfing completely apart from any issue of high sec. The concept of unbridled firepower outside of a siege mode is the realm of the super cap. That carriers have monstrous power without a siege is fundamentally unbalanced anyway. It's why I have been on tower repping ops with the carriers boot fit. I think carriers should be given an extra high slot and be allowed to fit siege modules and require that the module be active in order to use drone cone control units and get drone number bonuses from the racial carrier skill. Dreads wouldn't be nerfed at all. Rorqs wouldn't be nerfed at all.
Carriers are NOT overpowered. Fighter drones can be taken down like any other drones and are easy enough to tackle and avoid. Their dps isn't anything to write home about compared to a few cruisers. They also have the weakest tank in relation to other capitals, especially the minmatar and gallente ones. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
14325
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:27:19 -
[7] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place. Aside from the bit about the carriers, at no point did he ever say anything about nerfing them. Carriers aren't that OP anyway so it would be fine to allow them to field their fighters, I think.
"Do not allow sieging, triage, or industrial core activation in high sec."
Thats a big nerf to all capital classes. My point stands.
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Carriers are NOT overpowered. Fighter drones can be taken down like any other drones and are easy enough to tackle and avoid. Their dps isn't anything to write home about compared to a few cruisers. They also have the weakest tank in relation to other capitals, especially the minmatar and gallente ones.
Clearly you have never faced a boot fleet.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
194
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:31:52 -
[8] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place. Nothing would be nerfed except the carriers, which need nerfing completely apart from any issue of high sec. The concept of unbridled firepower outside of a siege mode is the realm of the super cap. That carriers have monstrous power without a siege is fundamentally unbalanced anyway. It's why I have been on tower repping ops with the carriers boot fit. I think carriers should be given an extra high slot and be allowed to fit siege modules and require that the module be active in order to use drone cone control units and get drone number bonuses from the racial carrier skill. Dreads wouldn't be nerfed at all. Rorqs wouldn't be nerfed at all. Carriers are NOT overpowered. Fighter drones can be taken down like any other drones and are easy enough to tackle and avoid. Their dps isn't anything to write home about compared to a few cruisers. They also have the weakest tank in relation to other capitals, especially the minmatar and gallente ones.
Fighters aren't the problem. Sentries are. The brunt of the carrier obscenity was taken care of with Phoebe, since they can't be everywhere instantly. However, requiring that they siege is to me a good idea. If it's not to you, fine. That's not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is that caps should be allowed to move through highs secbut not be allowed to utilize their distinctive there. There could still be misuse. A dread outside of siege does DPS like a BS but would still have an amazing tank and could be used as a ratter (with insanely expensive ammo - would not be popular).
But overall, my point is to lets caps in highest but clip their wings in highest. So they can be used as transport and be transported in high sec. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3627
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:35:53 -
[9] - Quote
Do you manufacture drones in high-sec by any chance, OP?
Oh god.
|
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:36:14 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place. Aside from the bit about the carriers, at no point did he ever say anything about nerfing them. Carriers aren't that OP anyway so it would be fine to allow them to field their fighters, I think. "Do not allow sieging, triage, or industrial core activation in high sec." Thats a big nerf to all capital classes. My point stands.
How is it a nerf? Caps cannot siege in high sec currently. Because they cannot go there. Allowing them to go there but not siege isn't a new. they are keeping their current inability to siege, lol. Just that they are able to relocate through high. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
6881
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:36:52 -
[11] - Quote
1. Do a search. This topic is redundant.
2. Really crunch the numbers behind capital ships. A dred without seige is useless (it deal battleship dps). A carrier using remote reps in any way will be overpowered (and without RR it is basically a heavily tanked drone battleship).
Both ships using their capital local reps will be able to actively tank small fleets (even wothout Siege/Triage), and capital HP in general makes them unreasonably hard to gank (making the Bowhead and frieghter obsolete).
If you want to use and move "special toys" then pay the penalty and be limited to certain areas of space.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
|
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:38:02 -
[12] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Do you manufacture drones in high-sec by any chance, OP?
Not anymore. And when I did I just sold them in Jita.
I just don't like 17 jump trips through low sec just to reposition my dread and I don't like having a dread in every region. And I'd like to use my carrier to haul my fitted ships. Screw the bowhead. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3627
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well if you still manufactured drones, you could also use your carrier to transport massive amounts of drones at no risk of being ganked, so that's another positive benefit to your idea.
Oh god.
|
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:41:35 -
[14] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Well if you still manufactured drones, you could also use your carrier to transport massive amounts of drones at no risk of being ganked, so that's another positive benefit to your idea.
Well that would just break the game, wouldn't it.
Drone builders would be so boss the Mitten would have to unsub. |
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
845
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:44:54 -
[15] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Do not allow sieging, triage, or industrial core activation in high sec...
Dreads wouldn't be nerfed at all.
Oh man you are funny. Now go away. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
14325
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:45:21 -
[16] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
How is it a nerf? Caps cannot siege in high sec currently. Because they cannot go there. Allowing them to go there but not siege isn't a new. they are keeping their current inability to siege, lol. Just that they are able to relocate through high.
Dreadnought goes from 10k DPS to 1700 and repping power is reduced by fivefold when it enters high sec. Thats a nerf.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
845
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:48:45 -
[17] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Carriers are NOT overpowered. Fighter drones can be taken down like any other drones and are easy enough to tackle and avoid. Their dps isn't anything to write home about compared to a few cruisers. They also have the weakest tank in relation to other capitals, especially the minmatar and gallente ones.
You really have no idea what fighters can do to subcaps do you? |
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:50:23 -
[18] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:
How is it a nerf? Caps cannot siege in high sec currently. Because they cannot go there. Allowing them to go there but not siege isn't a new. they are keeping their current inability to siege, lol. Just that they are able to relocate through high.
Dreadnought goes from 10k DPS to 1700 and repping power is reduced by fivefold when it enters high sec. Thats a nerf.
As others have pointed out, caps would still be nigh ungankable. The point of letting them into high sec is to allow them to move through it. They should not be able to use their abilities in high sec. They are not being nerved. Currently a dread's DPS in high sec is zero. It can't go there. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3628
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:53:10 -
[19] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:they can be used as transport and be transported in high sec.
Paynus Maiassus wrote:caps would still be nigh ungankable
Oh god.
|
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
14327
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 21:55:14 -
[20] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:
How is it a nerf? Caps cannot siege in high sec currently. Because they cannot go there. Allowing them to go there but not siege isn't a new. they are keeping their current inability to siege, lol. Just that they are able to relocate through high.
Dreadnought goes from 10k DPS to 1700 and repping power is reduced by fivefold when it enters high sec. Thats a nerf. As others have pointed out, caps would still be nigh ungankable. The point of letting them into high sec is to allow them to move through it. They should not be able to use their abilities in high sec. They are not being nerfed. Currently a dread's DPS in high sec is zero. It can't go there.
What part of a 80 to 90% decrease in firepower are you not getting here? You want to let them into high sec but you are having to savagly nerf them to do so. That alone shows they do not belong there. Christ, you even just admitted they would be ungankable, this alone breaks the balance in high sec transportation.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:03:03 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:
How is it a nerf? Caps cannot siege in high sec currently. Because they cannot go there. Allowing them to go there but not siege isn't a new. they are keeping their current inability to siege, lol. Just that they are able to relocate through high.
Dreadnought goes from 10k DPS to 1700 and repping power is reduced by fivefold when it enters high sec. Thats a nerf. As others have pointed out, caps would still be nigh ungankable. The point of letting them into high sec is to allow them to move through it. They should not be able to use their abilities in high sec. They are not being nerfed. Currently a dread's DPS in high sec is zero. It can't go there. What part of a 80 to 90% decrease in firepower are you not getting here? You want to let them into high sec but you are having to savagly nerf them to do so. That alone shows they do not belong there. Christ, you even just admitted they would be ungankable, this alone breaks the balance in high sec transportation.
Alright I'm done trying to get through to you. In low and null they still function exactly as they do now. Therefore, they are not being nerfed. They would be getting an increased capability to move and transport through high sec. The Rorq would boost lousier than an Orca but would be an excellent ore hauler. Carriers would replace the Bowhead unless the Bowhead were made considerably cheaper or be given substantially more cargo capacity or be given a substantial warp speed increase or something to make them preferable to a carrier.
Nerfing a cap in HIGH SEC does not mean nerfing a cap. It can still do everything it does now plus the ability to move through high. This is not a nerf.
Marmites would be camping Jita in carriers because 5 fighters is still pretty nasty. Some individuals would still do sites in dreads because 1700 DPS is pretty impressive for high sec. Also, caps could be staged from high to cyno into low. All of these INCREASES in capability are the things that keep people from allowing caps in high. The trick is to reduce their capabilities in high enough to allow them there without unbalancing high.
But ok, multiple posts to you have not gotten through so this is my last response to you. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
14329
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:11:10 -
[22] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Alright I'm done trying to get through to you. In low and null they still function exactly as they do now. Therefore, they are not being nerfed.
You are reducing their firepower to the level of a battleship when in high sec. That's a REDUCTION, thus you have nerfed them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3629
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:12:06 -
[23] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:The trick is to reduce their capabilities in high enough to allow them there without unbalancing high.
You still have to explain how this is going to be possible.
Oh god.
|
Atomeon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:16:08 -
[24] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Marmites would be camping Jita in carriers because 5 fighters is still pretty nasty.
5 fighters realyy? that much you know about carriers? |
Paranoid Loyd
3206
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:17:15 -
[25] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You even just admitted they would be ungankable, this alone breaks the balance in high sec transportation.
This is reason enough to not allow them.
/Thread
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
|
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:17:28 -
[26] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:The trick is to reduce their capabilities in high enough to allow them there without unbalancing high. You still have to explain how this is going to be possible.
Well, the ideas in my OP are a start. Perhaps prevent them from activating any active module would do the trick. |
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
62
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:17:55 -
[27] - Quote
NO...
unless highsec caps are auto-suspect on jump in (sorry chribba)
but better no...
NONONONONONO
TO
CAPS IN HIGHSEC
NO
|
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:18:50 -
[28] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Marmites would be camping Jita in carriers because 5 fighters is still pretty nasty.
5 fighters realyy? that much you know about carriers?
You didn't read my OP for the proposed carrier changes.
I've encountered more stupidity in this thread than I have in a long time. ISD please lock. |
Paranoid Loyd
3206
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:20:46 -
[29] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:I've encountered more stupidity in this thread than I have in a long time. ISD please lock. Interesting, we were all thinking the same about your idea.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
|
Paynus Maiassus
UNITAS.
Brave Collective
195
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:28:37 -
[30] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:I've encountered more stupidity in this thread than I have in a long time. ISD please lock. Interesting, we were all thinking the same about your idea.
Well if he's just going to assume I mentioned 5 fighters because I don't know that carriers can fit more than 5 fighters as they are now, he obviously didn't read my OP, which means he's stupid. Or worse, he read my OP but did not remember or did not understand it, which means he's even more stupid.
So again, ISD, please lock the thread. After being told that allowing caps to move through high with reduced capabilities means they are being nerfed and then being accused of not knowing that carriers can launch more than 5 fighters there's obviously some serious deficits in comprehension here and the theme of the thread will not come to fore.
I sometimes forget that most Eve players have not retained what they learned in 6th Grade English and are therefore unable to analyze a text for its meaning. So there's no point in continuing. Save me ISD. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
6881
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 22:30:29 -
[31] - Quote
I'm also not buying into any of the OP's arguments.
Dreds are not "dreads" without the use of their Siege Module. Otherwise they are just ungankable battleships that can't hit anything without lots of subcapital support.
Carriers and Rorquals outright obsolete Jump Frieghters and the Bowhead just by entering high-sec as they are better in every concievable way.
And then there are the remote reps, local reps, drones, etc.
To make them even somewhat high-sec viable you would have to cut out almost all of their abilities.
And then we come back to the HP problem.
Basically the OP don't care about the rest of the game as long as he gets the convenience and safety of being able to move through high-sec in his "big boy toys."
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
|
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
177
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 23:34:25 -
[32] - Quote
Is it really so hard to use the search tool?? This stupid topic is brought up nearly every week... |
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
45
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 00:18:25 -
[33] - Quote
capital ships should be allowed in high security space but with few strong limitations and penalties
from my view carriers and dreads should have several limitations
- no siege from dreads
- not riage from carriers
- industrial cores couuld be limited only to 0.5 space and no auto-repeat.
- cannot access rookie systems
- titans and supercapitals stay still banned from high security space
- supercapitals and titans shall be allowed to throught lowsec-nullsec lowsec-lowsec wormholes .
- no cynosural fields howewer capital ships in high security space should be able to jump between systems on jump freighter rules.
- capital ship production in high security space shall be brought back but only to npc stations one character limit to produce only one capital ship
- 75% dps loss on dreads
- 25% dps loss to carrier that use sentry drones -50% penalty for using small/medium/heavy
- when in highsec carriers should gain bonus to mining drone yield to harvester mining drone usage lets say 55 per skill level
- capital reppers,shield boosters lose 70% of repair amount
- capital remote armor/shield repair/booster loses 50% repair amount
- when suspect flagged player boards capital ship in highsec, local police ships will engag suspect for its timer duration
- criminal flagged player cannot board capital ships for timer duration
- suicide ganking in capital ship should not be allowed in highsecurity space
- pos bashes with capital ships in high security space should be allowed
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
80
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 02:33:36 -
[34] - Quote
I have to fall back on this
If you have to reduce / limit / remove capabilities for them to be allowed into high sec then they do not belong there at all.
Since the OP brought up the English language or more importantly others lack of comprehension I put this into the conversation
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nerf
As one can clearly see from this a "reduction" in the capabilities of cap ships in high sec is clearly a nerf. The fact that the nerf only applies to their use in high sec does not mean that it is not a nerf. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
2069
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 03:18:41 -
[35] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:
Basically the OP don't care about the rest of the game as long as he gets the convenience and safety of being able to move through high-sec in his "big boy toys."
^^
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
|
Catherine Laartii
Dominion Fleet Group
Templis CALSF
444
|
Posted - 2014.12.23 03:30:22 -
[36] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Catherine Laartii wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:baltec1 wrote:If you have to savagely nerf them to allow them into high sec then they don't belong there in the first place. Nothing would be nerfed except the carriers, which need nerfing completely apart from any issue of high sec. The concept of unbridled firepower outside of a siege mode is the realm of the super cap. That carriers have monstrous power without a siege is fundamentally unbalanced anyway. It's why I have been on tower repping ops with the carriers boot fit. I think carriers should be given an extra high slot and be allowed to fit siege modules and require that the module be active in order to use drone cone control units and get drone number bonuses from the racial carrier skill. Dreads wouldn't be nerfed at all. Rorqs wouldn't be nerfed at all. Carriers are NOT overpowered. Fighter drones can be taken down like any other drones and are easy enough to tackle and avoid. Their dps isn't anything to write home about compared to a few cruisers. They also have the weakest tank in relation to other capitals, especially the minmatar and gallente ones. Fighters aren't the problem. Sentries are. The brunt of the carrier obscenity was taken care of with Phoebe, since they can't be everywhere instantly. However, requiring that they siege is to me a good idea. If it's not to you, fine. That's not the point of the thread. The point of the thread is that caps should be allowed to move through highs secbut not be allowed to utilize their distinctive there. There could still be misuse. A dread outside of siege does DPS like a BS but would still have an amazing tank and could be used as a ratter (with insanely expensive ammo - would not be popular). But overall, my point is to lets caps in highest but clip their wings in highest. So they can be used as transport and be transported in high sec.
I agree with you about sentries, but those can already be used in hisec. Do you think barring them from using triage is enough or would something else have to happen? |
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3113
|
Posted - 2014.12.24 20:58:27 -
[37] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:ISD please lock. Thread locked at the OP's request.
Mind you, if I would not have locked it, several posts would have been removed for rule infringements.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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