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[Tech II Battleship] "Strike Battleships"

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Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 15324	Posted - 2014.12.25 04:31:43 - [1] - Quote Hello everyone! I'm back with a new idea - a new tech II battleship-class line of ships, designed for strong firepower, tough defenses, and total immunity to EWAR, similar to the immunity supercapital ships enjoy. These ships would be highly mobile, and would be effective for roams (also, to allay concerns of overpowerfulness, the ship has a massively reduced combat range and still uses Large weapon systems, meaning that it will not be able to dictate any sort of long-distance fight). Take this for an example: Caldari Strike Battleship: Chakora (modified Rokh hull; developer: Ishukone) Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Explosion Radius per level 20% bonus to warp speed per level Strike Battleship Skill Bonus: 4% bonus to shield resistances per level 7.5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Explosion Velocity per level Role Bonuses: 200% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage 50% reduction to Cruise Missile, Torpedo and Heavy Missile flight time Cloak Break range reduced to 0m 100% reduction to Cloaking Device penalties Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare Layout Slots (H/M/L): 6 / 8 / 6; 0 turrets, 4 launchers; 2 rigs Calibration: 400 Drones (bay/bandwidth): 75 / 50 Description: Designed to operate in high-risk areas, Strike Battleships incorporate blisteringly strong firepower with rock-solid defenses, in addition to enjoying high mobility and total immunity to Electronic Warfare at the cost of long-distance attack capabilities. Developer: Ishukone Taking an unconventional approach toward the Rokh's hull design, Ishukone has gutted it, replacing its systems with newly developed high-power launcher hardpoints that, while reducing the engagement range of the vessel, are capable of higher speed launches than any other. In addition, the ship's warp core and electronics have been totally redesigned, rendering them completely immune to electronic warfare, save for only the most powerful offensive interdiction. As usual, please leave feedback and suggestions: discussion breeds innovation and, hopefully, creation! Thank you! -Uriel A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
Foxicity Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 59	Posted - 2014.12.25 04:37:19 - [2] - Quote Dread killing juggernaut. Not to say that's a bad thing.
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 794	Posted - 2014.12.25 04:46:34 - [3] - Quote Oh look this thread again. -x, where x is the number of times anti-dreadnaught t2 BS threads have been posted. Also I can't wait to camp a bubble with one of these. Warping cloaked, 0 seconds decloak time, 0 scan res penalty, can't be jammed, 12 effective launchers with probably 1.5k+ dps with double application bonuses, allowing me to instablap interceptors with cruise missiles.... Could you *** not?
Quattras Peione Stay Frosty. A Band Apart. 30	Posted - 2014.12.25 04:48:38 - [4] - Quote I certainly think there is room for a new hull in the battleship lineup, and I like the rough concept here. That said, I have some issues with this suggestion: The cloaking device bonuses seem incongruous to the ship's role. In addition you suggest bonuses greater than those for CovOps. In a word, no. Maybe if you did away with the de-cloak range buff and cut that CPU cost reduction to a maximum of 90%. Maybe. The damage bonus is too high. Buffs like that are reserved for pirate faction ships; putting a bonus like that on a racial hull would obsolesce the pirate battleships. For a "strike battleship" I would like to see a much higher base speed and either a bonus to MWD velocity or a MJD cool down reduction. Everything else here seems reasonable.
HiddenPorpoise Under Dark Sins of our Fathers 294	Posted - 2014.12.25 04:50:55 - [5] - Quote Your short range ship has a range over 100km.
James Zimmer Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2014.12.25 04:51:24 - [6] - Quote I like the suggestion, I always though it was a shame that there were no tech 2 battleships suitable for fleets. Marauders are essentially PVE-only ships and Black Ops are extremely specialized, and mostly loners. However, what you're suggesting may be a little over-powered. Super-cloak + EWAR immunity may be a bit too far. Maybe replace those with prop bonuses. Super-fast ABs or fitting/cap MWD bonuses, and an agility bonus so they can align quickly and realistically chase down sniping fleets.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 15327	Posted - 2014.12.25 05:07:05 - [7] - Quote Anhenka wrote: Oh look this thread again. -x, where x is the number of times anti-dreadnaught t2 BS threads have been posted. Also I can't wait to camp a bubble with one of these. Warping cloaked, 0 seconds decloak time, 0 scan res penalty, can't be jammed, can't be pointed, MJDing lolmoble with 12 effective launchers, probably 1.5k+ dps with double application bonuses allowing me to instablap interceptors with cruise missiles.... Could you *** not? Warping cloaked isn't a thing at all on this idea- it would just have no penalties from fitting a cloak, but even that is any really necessary. Though I do agree the damage may be a little high- the range could also be shorter, to compensate (especially on a missile ship). HiddenPorpoise wrote: Your short range ship has a range over 100km I actually admit a mistake there- that was an oversight. A higher reduction to range would be necessary on a missile ship. I've gonna and made a few changes for the sake of congruity and balance: Only one application bonus, other replaced with agility bonus; no cloak bonuses, higher range reduction. A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 795	Posted - 2014.12.25 05:20:47 - [8] - Quote Edit: This was composed before the OP edited the original statement. Me lay it out to you flat. Massive damage bonus + double damage application bonus = Broken. Ewar Immunity + ability to fit MJD's = Broken. No cloaking delay while having easily over 1k dps = Broken. You can't keep ANY of them together. You can have massive damage OR excellent application, but if you have both it becomes stupid powerful against small ships. You can have MJD OR ewar immunity, but if you have both it simply ignores tackle, MJD's 100km in a random direction, then warps away, escaping from a half dozen interceptors while in a bubble. Can can give it no cloaking delay and low DPS OR high dps and a cloaking delay (like current Blops). With both you have double Sebo versions of this ship cloaked off bubbles, capable of decloaking, locking and killing the target in seconds, then MJDing away to recloak and move away at full speed. If an interceptor lands on it ignores it and warps. If a sabre lands on it, it ignores it, MJD's, then warps. Well more likely it would just two volley the sabre with double damage application bonused fury cruise missiles THEN warp away, but it could MJD then warp at any time it feels like.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 15327	Posted - 2014.12.25 05:25:58 - [9] - Quote [quote=Anhenka[/quote] I actually went and edited the OP: I think it's much better now- also, it was never bubble immune to begin with- just normal EWAR immune (I'll add that it's still affected by bubbles). Take a look- it's changed since your last post A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 795	Posted - 2014.12.25 05:37:58 - [10] - Quote Ok, It has a few less major problems It still has ewar immunity+ the ability to fit MJD's. That means that it just ignores conventional tacklers and warps unless they have a bubble. If they have a bubble, it just MJD's away then warps away. See the problem? (The only way for certain to pin it down is by using a scripted HIC, or being super smart and super lucky by bumping the target away from allcelestial directions, and burning overheated MWD dictors in the direction of jump as soon as it starts up the MJD.) It STILL has 12 effective weapons (by comparison, a vindicator only has 11), a 50% reduction in the effect of sig radius (allowing it to deal double damage to small ships) a range of 50km with cruise missiles, a tanking bonus, and a 75% agility bonus. This BS accelerates into warp and warps faster than any other cruiser except a Cynabal! You have not created a PvP anything anymore. What you have created is the ultimate nullsec moneymaker. Tanky, super DPS, super application, near total immunity to getting caught unless you are completely AFK. Still major no.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 15327	Posted - 2014.12.25 05:54:46 - [11] - Quote Anhenka wrote: More good points- to say, having overpowered suggestions can lead to effective discussions on reigning them in, but sometimes it just seems ridiculous To address the problem with MJD: I was under the false impression that Bubbles stopped MJDs- in this case, I have an option that could change that: The ship could have a MJD activation time penalty, making it take significantly longer; additionally, in place of total EWAR immunity, it could be tweaked to retain immunity to all but warp screams/disruptors and instead have a high bonus to warp core strength (say +5 to 7) to necessitate the usage of multiple ships to hold it down in place of one solitary frigate. Thanks for the feedback- it's helpful and helps to make a ship more plausible A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
HiddenPorpoise Under Dark Sins of our Fathers 294	Posted - 2014.12.25 06:14:10 - [12] - Quote It's still better than everything else, it has no real role, and it's cap independent with no tradeoff.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 6948	Posted - 2014.12.25 06:49:59 - [13] - Quote Let's go through the list... - obsoletes Marauders (which have to completely sacrifice mobility (and escape) in exchange for high tank and Ewar immunity) - virtually Ewar Immune without giving up anything meaningful in return. This right here is pretty much a dealbreaker. A lot of people (myself included) would actually LIKE to see Supercapitals lose their Ewar immunity... not add more Ewar immune ships to the game. - highly mobile / tanky / dps monster... pick two NO, you cannot have all of the above... otherwise it does not have any weakness. And lacking range is not a true weakness... especially when the long range weapon system (Cruise Missiles) are flat out better than the short range system (they will still hit out to ~35km with a 75% range reduction). - your rate of fire bonus is insane. Cruise Missiles will have the cycle time better than bonused rocket launchers just from the bonus alone. I mean... look at the Raven with its 25% rate of fire bonus and 3 Ballistic Control Systems. Cruise Missiles fire every ~7 seconds. With your bonus... they will fire every second or so. Now couple this with your application bonus, a web or two, Precision Cruise Missiles, drones, and the fact that missiles never "miss." Your ship will be fragging pretty much any close range ship smaller than a cruiser in a matter of single digit seconds. Only other battleships will have the EHP to stand up to it. This goes against the paradigm of larger ships being weak against smaller, more nimble ships and requiring support for escort duty. - Ishukone is a hybrid maker... not a missile one. You are thinking Klakaktoa (the black and red paint scheme). - this is the important one WHY? And don't say, "just because" or "it'd be cool!" Remember that you are playing a game where everyone has access to the same ships, mods, and equipment... and everyone wants to "win." You're going to have to rationalize where this ship fits in to the grand scheme of things and how it isn't going to "step on any toes" (see: other ships). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
HiddenPorpoise Under Dark Sins of our Fathers 294	Posted - 2014.12.25 07:43:28 - [14] - Quote In the name of objectifying it: with precision cruises it's putting out 750 misslile dps at 72m 125m/s. That's smaller than HAMs.
Goldensaver Lom Corporation Shadow of xXDEATHXx 407	Posted - 2014.12.25 08:25:35 - [15] - Quote Ummm... is nobody else going to mention the disaster that is "145% increase to rate of fire"? You do know how RoF bonuses work, right? They are a percentage reduction to duration of the module, not an actual rate of fire bonus. You've literally just given this ship's launchers a negative duration. It literally shoots missiles into the past and does damage before you've locked. Edit: just so you know, the value you're looking for is closer to a 60% overall reduction to rate of fire. That gives it a 150% increase to DPS. Also worth noting is the ~20 round magazines in Battleship sized launchers. You're going to go through those like a Caracal goes through a rapid light launcher mag. You're going to be reloading once per minute. Just mentioning it because I wasn't sure if you intended that.
Orange Something Shadow Garrison 5	Posted - 2014.12.25 08:26:22 - [16] - Quote In attempting to make a good PvP juggernaut T2 BS, you accidentally made the perfect ratting ship. The main problem I see here is that the high DPS + high tank shouldn't be given to a ship that's also immune to EWAR, basically is immune to warp disruption by anyone not in a dictor (except maybe a very skilled Blops fleet), and can fit a MJD. Those things all together basically make the ship impossible to catch w/o bubbles, and even then if they have a MJD bubbles can't even stop them. The ship, at least at time of posting, has a way-too-perfect balance of DPS, Tank, and Agility. I think with this class you were trying to make a BS that would be able to dish out high damage, and yet be able to escape easily when things went sour. So if that's right, then why have the tank? High tank is to increase survivability. If the point of the class is to strike and run, why would it need the tank to stay on grid for very long? I would argue the best way to both balance this, and give it it's own niche in Eve's vast-ish ship catalog would be to take off the shield resists per skill level, lower it's native resists, and make the RoF and Flight Time a skill based boost, as opposed to a class boost. Also remove the radius penalty on torps, they can barely damage anything smaller than BCs as is. Something like this: Quote: Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 7.5% bonus to ship agility per level 15% increase to Cruise Missile and Torpedo flight time Strike Battleship Skill Bonus: 15% reduction to Cruise Missile Launcher and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire 20% bonus to warp speed per level Role Bonuses: Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare exempting Warp Scramblers and Disrptors +6 warp core strength This way, it has it's role vs Marauders. As opposed to survivability it would literally be a hit and run type ship. Kinda like bombers, but with more ehp, no cloak, and a higher survival rate. It would be a niche ship, but it would have it's uses, just like every other T2 ship.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3634	Posted - 2014.12.25 10:49:34 - [17] - Quote Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote: Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare exempting Warp Scramblers and Disrptors +6 warp core strength Oh god.
Ix Method Shadows Legion High-Sec Tomfoolery 366	Posted - 2014.12.25 12:44:46 - [18] - Quote You've already hammered it down twice and it's still insanely OP. It ignores pretty much every balancing convention going. Shudder to think how ridiculously ganky the Gallente one would be. I know you've asked for constructive criticism but sometimes a concept is so horrible it's not really possible, you know? If you really want a T2 Attack BS perhaps start with an existing hull and work from there instead of just lumping all the **** onto something and hoping it works. Travelling at the speed of love.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 15327	Posted - 2014.12.25 13:25:48 - [19] - Quote Merry Christmas, EVEryone I'm gonna tweak this again in light of the issues brought up A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
Bob Maths Aliastra Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2014.12.25 13:31:22 - [20] - Quote It has to also be part of a super spaceship transformer.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 745	Posted - 2014.12.25 18:06:55 - [21] - Quote James Zimmer wrote: Marauders are essentially PVE-only ships and Black Ops are extremely specialized, and mostly loners. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about in this regard. Take a look through one of the killboards. We have some very skilled neighbors in Fountain who routinely use Marauders in PVP. They are not unique, either - some of my corp mates fly Marauders in PVP and there are several other groups who specialize in it as well. They may not be ubiquitous, but I see them on the field in PVP at least once a week. Marauders are awesome ships - and very well-balanced in the current meta. Unlike the silly monstrosities in the OP. Additionally, Black Ops are typically not loners. They typically drop on you with multiple Black Ops ships, fry you, and get out. Or they bridge a gang on top of you and get out. I rarely see solo Black Ops pilots, it is the quintessential small-gang weapon. Outside of fleet fights, Black Ops may be the best battleships in the game. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 745	Posted - 2014.12.25 18:15:20 - [22] - Quote OP, your proposal is a monstrosity. You should have posted it here: Bad Idea Thread. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 15334	Posted - 2014.12.25 19:02:33 - [23] - Quote It is a monster, yes- so I've changed it again The OP has been updated. A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
Bob Maths Aliastra Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2014.12.25 19:22:50 - [24] - Quote If you're using a Rokh for the model at least keep it in line with how variants work. Caldari Strike Battleship: Chakora (modified Rokh hull; developer: Ishukone) Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed 10% bonus to warp speed per level Strike Battleship Skill Bonus: 4% bonus to velocity per level 7.5% bonus to ship agility per level Role Bonuses: 50% reduction to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire 75% reduction to Large Hybrid Turret reload time Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare Cannot fit Large Micro Jump Drive Layout Slots (H/M/L): 8 / 8 / 6; 8 turrets, 2 launchers; 2 rigs Calibration: 400 Drones (bay/bandwidth): 75 / 50
FT Diomedes The Graduates Forged of Fire 746	Posted - 2014.12.25 19:39:17 - [25] - Quote Electronic Warfare immunity - outside of the Bastion, Siege, Triage mode - is literally the worst possible addition you can make to the game. My recommendation: think about the existing Marauders, which are well-balanced, great ships. Lots of people wanted all sorts of bonuses that would have made them totally overpowered, but instead we got great ships that are still powerful. I think a lot of people would love to see T2 versions of the Rokh, Hyperion, Maelstrom, and Abaddon, but the field is already very crowded. You need to come up with a new niche for these ships, if you want to see them in the game. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 6955	Posted - 2014.12.25 20:04:27 - [26] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: Electronic Warfare immunity - outside of the Bastion, Siege, Triage mode - is literally the worst possible addition you can make to the game. ^^ This. Again... you are giving up nothing (lack of range is still not a "real" penalty) for one of the single greatest advantages any ship can have. It is an automatic dealbreaker. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Komi Toran Paragon Trust The Bastion 496	Posted - 2014.12.25 20:14:46 - [27] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Electronic Warfare immunity - outside of the Bastion, Siege, Triage mode - is literally the worst possible addition you can make to the game. ^^ This. Again... you are giving up nothing (lack of range is still not a "real" penalty) for one of the single greatest advantages any ship can have. It is an automatic dealbreaker. Not empty quoting.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci Jovian Labs Jovian Enterprises 15351	Posted - 2014.12.25 20:30:08 - [28] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: Electronic Warfare immunity - outside of the Bastion, Siege, Triage mode - is literally the worst possible addition you can make to the game. ^^ This. Again... you are giving up nothing (lack of range is still not a "real" penalty) for one of the single greatest advantages any ship can have. It is an automatic dealbreaker. Well the original idea I had was to create a Battleship-size ship with high mobility - warp speed, agility - that would have strong attack/defense, in addition to not being able to be held down by a solo frigate. Basically, a strong ship that can effectively move around. Instead of a total EWAR immunity, maybe it could have a resistance to warp scrams/disruptors alone, to necessitate the use of dictors/bubbles to jam them, retaining the inability to MJD. A City made of Wood is built in the forest A City made of Stone is built in the mountains But a City made of Dreams...is built in heaven. Jovian Proverb GÖâ
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 6958	Posted - 2014.12.25 20:55:13 - [29] - Quote Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote: Well the original idea I had was to create a Battleship-size ship with high mobility - warp speed, agility - that would have strong attack/defense, in addition to not being able to be held down by a solo frigate. Basically, a strong ship that can effectively move around. Again... high mobility / high defense / high attack choose two. No ship in the game has all three aspects. Hell, no ship in the game should have all three. Otherwise the ship does not have a reasonable weakness that others can exploit (again, lack of range is NOT a weakness). As for the frigate thing... that form of balance was done on purpose. As a larger ship you are supposed to be weak against smaller ships unless you specifically fit to counter them (which makes you less effective against ships your own size)... which means you MUST rely on others for support (which encourages more gameplay through interaction with others). If you have a problem with balancing aspect... might I suggest you start a thread specifically dealing with that? hint: you are going to be flamed over that topic too because most consider it a GOOD balancing decision. Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote: Instead of a total EWAR immunity, maybe it could have a resistance to warp scrams/disruptors alone, to necessitate the use of dictors/bubbles to jam them, retaining the inability to MJD. Bubbles don't work in low-sec or high-sec. And still no. Ewar immunity (or resistance) of any kind without giving up something major in return is still an automatic dealbreaker. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 194	Posted - 2014.12.26 12:20:17 - [30] - Quote It's still very unreasonable, and incredible overpowered. The bonuses to all missile factors except damage, meanwhile having total immunity to all Ewar... Are you smoking weed when you come up with this?

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