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Jump In Camping Has To Stop

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Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.21 22:08:00 - [31] Edited by: Balsak on 21/10/2003 22:10:54 Gee you Biomass Cartel guys must have a guilty conscience over this. I never once mentioned any corp over this. This is just a simple blanket request to CCP to prevent Jump In camping. The reason for this is very reasonable since it becuse you can be killed while the screen still says loading. This thread was started by me not because I got camped and killed because I didnt but a friend of mine did. The really sad part was that he got pod killed after he paid the ransom requested. Now since it was from a pirate I really wouldn't expect anything less from a low life liar. But again this thread is not to blame pirates or anyone who camps a jump in point. If i were a pirate I would do the exact same thing. Now im getting tired of saying this. CCP is who I blame. Forget calling people carebears and whatnot. Its just a simple fact that there shouldnt be a way to blow someone up without them having any chance at all which is the way jump-in camping is now. Even if there is no lag from containers or drones we all know CCPs servers and the internet itself in general can lag out causing the loading screen to stay for another 10 seconds or more which is plenty of time to destroy someone.
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.21 22:27:00 - [32] I never previously stated that the ship doesn't appear till you load. I said that's a far better way to improve things than randomizing the jumpins. And it is . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
KIAInkZ	Posted - 2003.10.21 22:43:00 - [33] Quote: So what you're sayin KIA is that it's my fault that I didn't scout the routes on every one of my 120 agent missions with an alt? I'm saying that if you had done that you wouldn't have died. With the current game mechanics it's the only form of defence. If you'd rather poke yourself in the eye mining scordite, then that's fine too. --- Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk
Homo Erectus	Posted - 2003.10.21 23:01:00 - [34] when they fix jump in points, you will see alot of skilless newbies from biomass and others cry because they can no longer gank.
Sargenta	Posted - 2003.10.21 23:24:00 - [35] It will most likely take a combination of ideas to fix it. Pirates must be given something to go on for their prey and as mentioned before there are only limited spots. My .02, I think the jump points stay as they are with a mildly random factor of +/- some number < 50 added to either of the coordinate points that make up the jump spot in space. If done in this manner, to the pirates it will be similar to going to a belt hunting NPCs in that you know almost where they will appear but not exactly. By doing this (along with the full load), the pirates have to setup a real blockade not just stay within jamming range of a single point. It would take a coordinated effort to cover all possible points given +/- 40 km (?) in any direction. --Disclaimer--- I DO NOT MEAN NERF EVERYTHING. --End Disclaimerù Also, a long running common problem is the length of battle. It is fully acceptable that many ships should be able to destroy a single ship in a matter of seconds. But the balance problem seems to be very complex as to what exactly constitutes "many" and ôoddsö. It's made even worse with limited tech because there is a damage limit via certain load outs that are hard to defeat/counter/run-from 1 on 1 much less 3 on 1. Once tech expands this will help some but if it doesnÆt keep expanding then we will be right back at the same place. Either way, what ever solution is found that fixes these PvP issues will also promote many more people to go farther out or empire space and clear up some other issues. Those that venture out will have a better risk vs. reward equation to contemplate. Right now the equation is simple; I have an insured ship that I want to do something with outside of empire space. That task has to be profitable enough (in some sense) to warrant the risk of warping into some system and getting wasted before my screen loads. To most itÆs not worth it. To some, itÆs not worth it to the point of canceling their subscription. Loosing a BS or cruiser when you are out numbered and out gunned should happen but the time in battle should be proportional to just how much one side outweighs the other. Five second kills should only fairly be achieved by exceptionally good odds û not by close odds made exceptional by a glitch. If the sides are even close to equal, the length of battle should be much longer. If not, strategy ends with the first shot because one side has already chosen a path which the other cannot recover from even if fitted to do so. In effect most battle victories are won before they start to the enormous advantage given to the first to ID and attack. So wars of any sort are really only small encounters of who targeted and jammed who first. Even if the ôleadersö of the fighting tell other ships to jointly target and destroy a enemy ship, the strategy is still too limited. If this was not so far out of whack, shield transfers would actually matter in some situations. Or CCP can just keep on taking our money and changing the rules every so often in one favor or the other.
Danny V	Posted - 2003.10.21 23:40:00 - [36] My .02? Don't you think it's hard enough for pirates to catch people as it is? I'm at a point where i don't see a pirate catching me if i am running away unless i'm sleeping (could be wrong as far as the extremely high skilled pirates go), but i'm pretty confident. The fact that i can even say that means nothing else should be done to make things harder for pirates. Scout a system if u have to before you go into it. The map tells you a lot of things, learn the language.
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.21 23:48:00 - [37] Well you people can argue all you want about what else should be done but simpley put. Being blown up while still loading is unacceptable for all people in the game. Even if you are the most hated pirate in the game you should not be able to be killed this way. Its just plain lame.
Keo Morigan	Posted - 2003.10.22 00:08:00 - [38] Quote: Gate camping has been removed in all of empire space now unless u have a number of dedicated bbs jamming the sentries which forces us to camp jumpin points as its the only way to get pvp inside empire space now carebears brought it on themselves, there was no need to introduce sentries to 0.4 and lower... And as an addition to that, sentry guns will be unjammable soon (if not atm we speak, I havn't tried). And that's just plain stupid, it makes all travelling except 0.0 completely safe, if they do something about the jumpin camping. Complete bull**** actually. If your not a part of the solution, then you'r probably a part of the problem.
Johnson McCrae	Posted - 2003.10.22 00:11:00 - [39] Currently, the jump in points are a bug (and defined by Fuhry(dev) as an exploit to use them). They are trying to fix them to do what their SUPPOSED to do. Gate to Gate. Jump in points are SUPPOSED to park you at the gate leading to the system you just left. This would allow jumpins the opportunity to escape any gate campers, but less chance for warp inners. I DO hope they fix this soon(tm). It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya! [ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.22 00:39:00 - [40] Quote: Camping jump in points is not an 'exploit' the GM's have already said so. IF a GM said that, in face of the events happening in TQ, he is really clueless. _______________________________________________
Sargenta	Posted - 2003.10.22 01:27:00 - [41] Edited by: Sargenta on 22/10/2003 01:33:21 My request is not to make it harder for pirates but to level the playing field so that pirates and lawful can play their role equally well. Based on posts from some of the notorious pirates in the game, their success rate is horrible unless they do use one of the extremely few ways to pirate namely camping routes. If we are talking about playing the role of a pirate in this game, then that role should be more than simply picking the most destructive load out followed by picking a gate to camp. Even if you throw team tactics in to play, thatÆs just a group of players picking a load out, followed by a gate. But even that is limited because the team of pirates will pick the load-out best suited for the group which due to a lack of tech is most likely duplicated by other pirate groups. So what's next from that? The map argument is flawed as well because the lawful can get a indication that the system is dangerous and avoid it but the pirate has no alternative to track a player. Similar to bounty hunter issues. Most players I think have some sort of thought process they go through when they travel outside of empire space or in a hazardous system that comes down to, yet again, a very limited set of factors: activity in the systems, time of day, risk and level of frustration. These factors all work against the pirate - after some level of kills in a system, people will not travel through it unless the risk warrants it or they are not paying attention. Time of day, some people only travel during certain times to lessen their chances of hitting a pirate stop (num players online should be removed and replaced with weekly non-times usage stats). Risk and frustration - is the task even worth the trouble? With all the CTDs, lagg spikes, etc...the risk and frustration factor seems to be way up. If pirates are guaranteed success, people will not travel in mass. If travelers are guaranteed passage, pirates will not succeed. One depends on the other and right now pirates are getting those that are so bored with the lack of content that they will risk anything for something different. Another way to look at the problem is that pirates are not guaranteed any level of success but if they do happen upon a victim the odds of success on that raid greatly favors them. The only way the lawful can defend themselves is to accept initial ship losses and hope that properly equipped help arrives. That's not even defending. At that point it becomes another risk decision - do we risk more ships? And if so, for what? At that point the exact same tactics that the lawful use to evade are available for pirates to avoid repercussions. I think by finding a solution that increases the chances of player travel, it is possible to increase the pirate hit rate and if the lawful are given a reason and acceptable risk vs reward equation, they will travel. Trying damn hard to look at it from both sides
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.22 02:19:00 - [42] As much as all the player pirates would hate to see jump in camping removed all you player pirates have to step back and see why jump in camping is a bad thing. Anyone who thinks that jump in camping and killing someone before they even know its happening is acceptable you have serious problems. Dont say that because you have no other way to what ever it is you want to that makes it alright. But dont think i want to shut down player pirates cause I dont. Removing piracy would just kill the game completely. Heres a suggestion to you pirate people. How about grouping up in more than 2 people per group and raid empire space ? Blow up Concord or whatever races military is providing protection in that system.
Baun	Posted - 2003.10.22 02:22:00 - [43] Quick set of questions guys; If you just always set your autopilot ahead won't it warp you out of a Jump-In point before anyone can lock you? or Does the autopilot not activate until your screen has loaded. Hence, is a person with a poor connection and/or a poor computer really entirely helpess until his screen has loaded? The Enemy's Gate is Down
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.22 02:54:00 - [44] It activates after loading so if you are sitting there for a couple of seconds theres plenty of time to get a lock and warp scramble on. So yes you are screwed if your connection is lagging a little that day or if CCPs servers are lagging.
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.22 02:56:00 - [45] Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 02:56:57 doh !! double post
xpero	Posted - 2003.10.22 03:06:00 - [46] Quote: Gate camping has been removed in all of empire space now unless u have a number of dedicated bbs jamming the sentries which forces us to camp jumpin points as its the only way to get pvp inside empire space now carebears brought it on themselves, there was no need to introduce sentries to 0.4 and lower... I totally agree with you (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.22 03:13:00 - [47] Sooooo.......... because there are sentries at the gates making them very hard to camp its right to allow people to be blown up before they load. Ummm...... yeah, ok. That makes absolutely no sense. If there are 2 problems one doesnt make the other ok just because its a problem. They both need fixing then.
Hido	Posted - 2003.10.22 03:21:00 - [48] Well not too long ago (about a week or so ago) I was warping along into another .0 space and guess what? There was this guy sitting in front of the gate with a Blackbird. So I check to see how he looks and he had a positive rating so I think (let me just keep on moving along) which was not a problem. I warp and loading up in the next system and guess what? I seem to have this nimbus around me and think (is it another bug in the game) until I got rude wakeup with cruise missiles being fired my way!!!! So I think (this cannot be good), then think (so that guy was a watch dog who was camping the gate and telling the guys on the other side that somebody is coming through). As I am sure most of you can imagine I was podded very bloody fast (when you got a BB, Carc and a Scorpion hitting you up). So what I want to know is why are pirates allowed to use this exploit? I do not mind the fact that they podded me cause thats just part of the game but I really did not like the fact that when I loaded up I was sitting there scrambled, netted and jammed. I could not do anything at all which was just plain slaughter. Just on a side note I have kept the names of those who used this tactic against me so when I get around to it I am going to come and******them So what is CCP's stand on this? Do I get a refund or should I just lay the blame on fate? Living the life Havin it large Welcome to the land of the rising sun
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.22 03:26:00 - [49] It's really a circular problem. I've pointed out what'll happen if totally random warp in locations are removed. And it will happen. Faced with losing 90m per ship in a solar system setup as a trap, the prey will log. Right now the autopilot will 9 times out of 10 warp you away from a jump in camp in the immunity time, short of lag. When spaces before you are placed into the solar system, it will be 10 out of 10. So the immunity timers have to go. But if the immunity timers go, then a person will escape 0 out of 10 times. A Vigil with a warp scrambler is both fast enough on the lock time to grab, sensor dampen you and hold you till a bship finalizes it with more scramblers and jammers. And it's cheap enough to risk. The end result is made the same: You've jumped in with 0 chance to respond, provide whoever set the trap has Clue #1. Quite honestly, any gank squad that knows where you're going to be can and will eliminate you before you can do anything. It's just a matter of adding firepower. And all the suggestions I've seen for sa**uards ultimately end with the oppposite, an impossibility to stop anyone that choose to run. As far as 'tactics' go, jump in camping is either loathsome or worthy of the ultimate of strategists. Take your pick. Personally speaking, I think the perception that only pirates use it blinds people's perception of the larger picture: How would you catch someone in this game otherwise? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.22 03:43:00 - [50] Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 03:46:47 Jash please. I know you have more intelligence than this. No matter what other problems exist they do not justify allowing someone to be blown up while loading. Its simpley unfair to ever ask anyone to accpet the fact that when they spawn in they are dead. Tank CEO doesnt even deserve this. Just because someone is on dial up and their invulnerability timer wears off before they load and spawn in dead is a pile of crap and you all know it. I cant wait til one of you gets killed while loading. Ill bet any money that you will be on here *****ing and swearing at CCP to no end. Ive alrady seen you do it. Now I will remind you all once more. YOU CANNOT EXPECT ANYONE TO EVER ACCPET BEING KILLED WHILE THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE SYSTEM TO LOAD DUE TO A COUPLE SECONDS LAG EITHER ON CCPS END OR THE PLAYERS END. THIS THREAD ONLY HAS TO DO WITH THAT SIMPLE FACT. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO JUMP IN CAMP BECAUSE YOU CANT CAMP A GATE THEN FIND A WAY TO FIX THAT INSTEAD FIGHTING TO KEEP A LAME ASS TACTIC THAT CCP SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED AT ALL Sorry for the yelling but some of you just don't seem to get a simple fact.
Hido	Posted - 2003.10.22 04:21:00 - [51] So I guess that means I will not get a refund for me lost ship I guess I have to go and hunt them buggers down myself. As the saying goes if you see a nail sticking out you have to hammer it in Living the life Havin it large Welcome to the land of the rising sun
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.22 04:28:00 - [52] Edited by: Jash Illian on 22/10/2003 04:31:05 Quote: Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 03:46:47 Jash please. I know you have more intelligence than this. No matter what other problems exist they do not justify allowing someone to be blown up while loading. Its simpley unfair to ever ask anyone to accpet the fact that when they spawn in they are dead. Tank CEO doesnt even deserve this. Just because someone is on dial up and their invulnerability timer wears off before they load and spawn in dead is a pile of crap and you all know it. I cant wait til one of you gets killed while loading. Ill bet any money that you will be on here ***ing and swearing at CCP to no end. Ive alrady seen you do it. Now I will remind you all once more. YOU CANNOT EXPECT ANYONE TO EVER ACCPET BEING KILLED WHILE THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE SYSTEM TO LOAD DUE TO A COUPLE SECONDS LAG EITHER ON CCPS END OR THE PLAYERS END. THIS THREAD ONLY HAS TO DO WITH THAT SIMPLE FACT. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO JUMP IN CAMP BECAUSE YOU CANT CAMP A GATE THEN FIND A WAY TO FIX THAT INSTEAD FIGHTING TO KEEP A LAME ASS TACTIC THAT CCP SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED AT ALL Sorry for the yelling but some of you just don't seem to get a simple fact. I'm looking past the outrage that you're not. Anyone capable of taking down my Tempest without its shield hardeners and boosters in 20 seconds can do so in 40 with them running. The addition of a single ship can render my chances of doing something to watching my ship get destroyed instead of watching a loading screen. The end result is the same: ship is destroyed with no chance to defend it. Two little pirates with a Blackbird taught me that. If they had anything more powerful, the Tempest would have been gone. Now maybe you're interpretting what I say as promotion for the idea of jump in camping. It's not. I'd prefer it if a person wants to slug it out but I won't kid myself with believing that I could miraculously survive a trap setup for me. Nor have I any illusions I could do anything if I encounter a trap setup for me, except delay the inevitable. But the frustration I'd feel at finding myself in that situation is nowhere near** the level of anger I'd feel at being rendered neutered by being unable to EVER catch anyone. All because someone wanted to watch their ship get destroyed by 6 battleships. Find a real solution instead of saying anything is better. That's horse***. That's the crap that got us Concord and sentry guns destroying battleships in eyeblinks over splash damage. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.22 05:16:00 - [53] Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 05:19:16 You maybe looking past whatever you think but it still doesn't make sense to allow people to get blown up blindly just so other people may have a way of catching pirates. You and I both know Jash that if you were jump in camped and lagged for a few seconds and then load up to see 3 battleships around your pod would be the first person on the boards here ***ing to CCP about changing that. Once again and for the last damn time. This is not a thread about why jump in camping is done. This is a thread simpley stating that dieing while loding is simpley stupid and wrong. If you have problems with other aspects of the game then find solutions for them. Dont allow a lame (bug / oversight / exploit / whatever you want to call it ) to fix another problem. Past problems with catching pirates as well as the current ones have nothing to do with killing while loading. Now im ***** done with this thread. Enough dumb people have posted here saying the same old crap over and over completely forgetting the real point. They are all just interested in keeping thier oh so precious way of feeling powerful and uber. I guess boards for all games are the same. No one has any sense of balance. Its either full on carebear or full on anarchy. My post count from this thread alone probably more than tripled my post count here and its probably about to stop where its at now. I got better things to do than to explain simple things to people.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.22 05:40:00 - [54] Quote: Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 05:19:16 You maybe looking past whatever you think but it still doesn't make sense to allow people to get blown up blindly just so other people may have a way of catching pirates. You and I both know Jash that if you were jump in camped and lagged for a few seconds and then load up to see 3 battleships around your pod would be the first person on the boards here ***ing to CCP about changing that. Once again and for the last damn time. This is not a thread about why jump in camping is done. This is a thread simpley stating that dieing while loding is simpley stupid and wrong. If you have problems with other aspects of the game then find solutions for them. Dont allow a lame (bug / oversight / exploit / whatever you want to call it ) to fix another problem. Past problems with catching pirates as well as the current ones have nothing to do with killing while loading. Now im *** done with this thread. Enough dumb people have posted here saying the same old crap over and over completely forgetting the real point. They are all just interested in keeping thier oh so precious way of feeling powerful and uber. I guess boards for all games are the same. No one has any sense of balance. Its either full on carebear or full on anarchy. My post count from this thread alone probably more than tripled my post count here and its probably about to stop where its at now. I got better things to do than to explain simple things to people. I guess you do have better things to do. I've seen enough sacrifice for the sake of balance cause enough woes as it is. Why not simply demand the removal of non-consentual PvP. If you don't give a damn how it gets solved then you contribute just as much to the next problem that comes along. You think I enjoyed losing my ships to Concord? You think I enjoyed warping my Tempest out in the middle of nowhere for a half hour because of a ghost message saying I initiated hostilities, afraid Concord would come take it away? You think I enjoy watching the market get pooched through downtime traders, blueprint licenses and having the variation of vanilla thanks to the highways? Think I enjoy ore thieves? Do you think I enjoy any of the results from half-assed implementations crammed down our throats because of "Just do anything!" mentalities? When have you seen me more *ed? At getting beat on by someone (and you know damn well I've been grid sploited and jump in camped)? Or at the assed mechanics that have cost me to lose what I've earned in the name of protecting me? Yeah, right. I'll be one of the first people here to complain about the loss. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Tank CEO	Posted - 2003.10.22 06:15:00 - [55] Camping the jump in points is the last resort for a pirate. Next patch guns will not be jammable, pretty much godly turrets at every gate. Therefore pirates turn to the last possible way to camp which is not 100% efficient, 50% of them warp away unless you got 10 battleships there. A simply solution to stop pirates from camping jump in points, 1. Take the sentry guns off the gate until CCP pushes people out into 0.0 space. 2. Make gate warp in's 30km away and not possible to make bookmarks. IN 0.0 space, alot of stargates have quick jump warp in's making camping in 0.0 space not possible and to add to that there is hardly any traffic threw there. ---
Balsak	Posted - 2003.10.22 07:34:00 - [56] Well I was done here. Jash if you wanna keep blowing something as simple as dieing while loading into a pile of other crap then you keep doing that. I dont care anymore. You still have to know that in any game at anytime if a player dies while the game is still loading an area its just completely wrong. Oh yeah I also said I dont care what the fix is AS LONG AS IT DOESNT SCREW UP OTHER THINGS. Thats not saying I dont care no matter what. I will also repeat this part one more time just for you. Just because theres a problem with trapping a player pirate to kill now, that doesnt make it right to be able to just kill someone while they are still loading. Tank I agree with you 100% on all you said. I hope you agree with what im saying though too Tank. Loading screen death is just plain wrong for anyone in any agme. I dont want to make a pirates life impossible in Eve. But I also dont want to be giving them free lunches as well. Which is what jump in camping is doing. Id much rather see gate camping than jump in camping. Jumping into system now is like being blindfolded then told you have to fight someone the first round like this. What are people gonna think when they jump and when the game finally loads they are in a station wondering WTF just happened ?? This is grounds for people filing petitions and leaving the game. Now for those that have read everything ive had to say in this thread and still believe that being killed while you are still loading is right. JUST GO AWAY !!
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.22 07:53:00 - [57] I think it's time for Gate-to-Gate jumping [Heterocephalus glaber]
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2003.10.22 08:09:00 - [58] Quote: Camping the jump in points is the last resort for a pirate. Next patch guns will not be jammable, pretty much godly turrets at every gate. Therefore pirates turn to the last possible way to camp which is not 100% efficient, 50% of them warp away unless you got 10 battleships there. A simply solution to stop pirates from camping jump in points, 1. Take the sentry guns off the gate until CCP pushes people out into 0.0 space. 2. Make gate warp in's 30km away and not possible to make bookmarks. IN 0.0 space, alot of stargates have quick jump warp in's making camping in 0.0 space not possible and to add to that there is hardly any traffic threw there. Yeah i mean, why should ANYONE be able to survive an encounter with you tank. I have to believe that somewhere between tank's extremisim, and the "pvp switch" deal, their has to be a compromise. Wish I knew what it was... I DO know, making blockades impossible to get by, is not the answer, just as making blockades 100% possible to get by now, is also the wrong answer. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.22 08:12:00 - [59] psst, SI's method will still work [Heterocephalus glaber]
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.22 08:42:00 - [60] Quote: I think it's time for Gate-to-Gate jumping Gate-to-gate jumping will result in the same situations. Especially in systems with only 2 gates. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

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