| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Balsak
   |
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:35:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Balsak on 21/10/2003 20:38:16
Edited by: Balsak on 21/10/2003 20:37:46
CCP this is your fault. I do not blame any pirates for using this. CCP you said a long time ago that Jump-In Camping wont be possible because when you spawn into a system you will be put into a random place. Well this hasn't happened. Pirates can now camp your spawn in point and kill you before you even know what has happened.
This hasnt happened to me yet but it has happened to friends and its complete bull**** to have this kind of stuff happen.
Once again I do not blame any pirates for taking advantage of this. I blame CCP for allowing it to happen.
Please fix this ASAP CCP !!
|
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:38:00 -
[2]
Yeah really how hard would this be? Every spot has a XYZ coordinate so why not just random generate an X, Y, and Z value in whatever range it fits, and you get placed there?
I mean really, the jump in point is either by a planet or out in the middle of nowhere. So why not just make it a random point?
Pirates can still camp the gates. I don't see the problem, but I do see lots of people getting ****ed at you for this.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
MOOstradamus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:43:00 -
[3]
/me totally agrees as should be evident by the exploit petition I raised last week !!
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
|
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:47:00 -
[4]
As far as I know it will be stopped next patch with clients loading fully before entering a system.
Convert Stations
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:48:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 21/10/2003 20:49:40
 Quote:
Yeah really how hard would this be? Every spot has a XYZ coordinate so why not just random generate an X, Y, and Z value in whatever range it fits, and you get placed there?
I mean really, the jump in point is either by a planet or out in the middle of nowhere. So why not just make it a random point?
Pirates can still camp the gates. I don't see the problem, but I do see lots of people getting ****ed at you for this.
Known jump in locations actually are necessary. A totally random jump point would make catching anyone impossible, regardless of whether they were a pirate or you.
for example purposes only:
1) Oracle camps all stargates in Egbinger.
2) Hardin jumps in to completely random jump point.
3) Hardin sees Oracle all over the local list.
4) Hardin logs out for the next 2 hours and plays an alt.
Can you blockade every stargate in a system 23/7? What about some place like Amamake? I think there are about 15+ stations there. That solarsystem is a nightmare to chase anyone in. I've tried. I failed. Along with about 10+ others and the people we were chasing were kind enough not to use midwarp bookmarks.
A balance has to be struck between knowing where a person might enter the solar system and providing the person entering a reasonable chance of not slamming headfirst into a blockade. Otherwise, people will avoid combat far too easily.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:53:00 -
[6]
I dont care how its handled as long as when you jump in you have a chance of getting away instead of respawning in your pod.
|
Rohann
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:56:00 -
[7]
Camping jump in points is not an 'exploit' the GM's have already said so.
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:58:00 -
[8]
No Rohann its not an exploit. Never said it was. Its just something stupid CCP has overlooked or wants to have people killed before they can see what is happening.
Just so everyone knows. I DONT CARE IF YOU ARE PIRATE USING THIS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. I BLAME CCP.
|
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 20:58:00 -
[9]
Camping them no, deploying drones and container for the pure purpose of generating lag yes.
Convert Stations
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Balsak on 21/10/2003 21:04:22
I dont even consider deploying drones an exploit since you use them to defend yourself. Once again CCP needs to figure out how to remove has much load time/lag from drones.
Container lag I do consider an exploit since you have no reason to dump a pile of containers into space.
|
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:05:00 -
[11]
Drones are easy enough to launch at the sign of an inbound ship. Keeping them out all the time is exploiting a weakness in the system.
Convert Stations
|
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:07:00 -
[12]
@ Jash Illian:
We need two things IMO - random jump-ins *and* a option not to be present in the local chat.
The presence in local makes any raids impossible, since everyone with eyes will be warned long before you are actually with them.
free speech not allowed here |
Jarjar
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:07:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jarjar on 21/10/2003 21:07:32
Drones make very little lag right now, at least when I last tried a few days ago. I warped into a (friendly, ofc) blockade with a few drones out (20?), 4 ships or so, loaded in less than 2 (!) seconds. Felt like the gate was empty.
|
KIAInkZ
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:07:00 -
[14]
unfortunately, until pvp is sorted, caping spawns is the only way of actually catching anyone. It's a necessity.
They can't fix that until they fix the pvp, or it will be impossible to die.
---
Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:11:00 -
[15]
KIA, adding modules like mobile refinaries and making them costly will make them hotspots for shootouts, abandon the platform or die trying to save it?
Convert Stations
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:11:00 -
[16]
Yeah, I've noticed the lag during battles and/or warping to gates is minimal even when the enemy has drones out since the new hardware was installed.
The invulnerability timer happens to get in the way lately and you find yourself frantically locking while the magnetic field crap disappears.
I'd like to see the 10 second invul time cut to 7.5 seconds or even 5.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Hummus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Hummus on 21/10/2003 21:18:28
Well, it happened to me the first weekend in October. I jumped into a 0.4 on my way back from doing an agent mission.
Jumped into 4 Pirate Battleships with a full complement of drones to generate lag. by the time the system loaded up, I was already warpjammed and at about 60% armor. I lost my (insured) Scorpion all of some of my best guns, and FOUR implants.
Now I don't blame the 4 guys that ganged up on me, but I fully blame CCP for the rediculous oversight. So, to voice my disgust I wrote a scathing petition because all that time lost lost doing missions to get 4 implants. Because that annoyed me 100x more than losing the ship.
Heck, with the insurance payoff I could have bought the Raven I was saving for. Anyway, I resigned as CEO of my small corp, gave all my remaining gear and cash to my corp, started training Ref Eff5 (in case I changed my mind), and cancelled my EVE account. It's just incomprehensible to me to spend another minute or red cent playing a game where all your work can be blown up with you powerless to do anything about it for the most critical part of it (before they lock on you and jam you).
I haven't logged in since and I only checked the boards today o see if it was changed yet. From the look of this thread and the rediculous replies to my petition, this hasn't been changed.
One more lost customer to CCP.
==========================================
Hobbies: Seeking out the Village idiot and making sure I'm smarter. So far, so good!! |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:14:00 -
[18]
KIA this is not an option right now since innocent people have no chance. Forget lag exploits. CCPs server lags out for a few seconds and you spawn in dead. Whether PvP is broken or not right now. Allowing blind death at all is not acceptable.
Yes. Random jumpins and blocking your name from local are both excellent ideas.
|
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:21:00 -
[19]
Is that the cheap cloaking device *****ble to every ship, blocking your name in local? 
Convert Stations
|
Drethen Nerevitas
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:21:00 -
[20]
Need to dodge local, yes.
RANDOM JUMP IN POINTS ARE NOT THE ANSWER.
(Just gone looking through the history junk-I think they removed the bit I was looking for that told you why you could only arrive in a 200km (approx) wide area  ) If you look at how jumpgates work, it doesn't even make sense for it to be a random jumpin. Can't anyone be satisfied with the ship-won't-show-till-you-load thing?-which will also help you at gates?
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
KIAInkZ
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:22:00 -
[21]
Edited by: KIAInkZ on 21/10/2003 21:23:59
The jumpin camping problem is easily avoided by scouting with alts. Dangerous systems are clearly marked on your autopilot.
I would NEVER jump into a 0.4 or below known pirate system without scouting first.
These systems are clearly marked by showing destroyed ships in last 24 hours etc.
I think cancelling your account is a little excessive. Learn your lesson, and don't make the same mistake again.
A little time spent researching your route can save your ship.
The jumpin problem has to stop, but only CCP can do this. Until then, using the methods above will keep you fairly safe.
---
Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:28:00 -
[22]
Drethen that may be accpetable as long as travelling time doesnt quadruple. 20 minutes of flight time to 2 hours of loading time is not very fun either.
My real problem is when CCP said a long time ago in beta that jump in camping would not be possible in Eve. When I saw this i breathed a sigh of relief after playing games that let people camp spawn in points.
Spawn-in camping is an extremely cheap and ******* tactic but also easily fixed. Sure it may be one the few ways to catch people in the game but its not an acceptable option when people are dead before they can see anything. Instead of allowing spawn in camping to catch people CCP should give ways of catching a specific person rather than just being able to catch anyone randomly.
|
Drethen Nerevitas
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:28:00 -
[23]
Or you can fly a cheap as dirt ship Inkz .
"*****" is blocked?! 
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Drethen Nerevitas
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:31:00 -
[24]
If your ship doesn't appear till you've loaded the screen, it's no different to warping in to attack someone at the gate/belt/planet/station. Wow. So they have their drones out, right, lemme see you need 0.2 seconds to zoom your cam out, 0.5 seconds to release your drones...every second counts in combat, yes, but come on this is ridiculous.
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
Hummus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:31:00 -
[25]
So what you're sayin KIA is that it's my fault that I didn't scout the routes on every one of my 120 agent missions with an alt?
Ya, ok I'll buy that... for about 1/100th of a second. Do you realize how long that would take, especially with the 4 or 5 17+ jump agent missions I was burdened with that day?
I'd rather mine scordite all day with a sharpened pencil stuck in my right eye than have to do that constantly. Because it's due to coding thought up by a retarded baboon, not part of the mechanics of a game I want to be a part of anymore, thx.
Anyway, good luck to everyone who's still playing and hopefully this gets fixed. But it doesn't look like I'll be un-cancelling before Oct. 25th after all.
==========================================
Hobbies: Seeking out the Village idiot and making sure I'm smarter. So far, so good!! |
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:37:00 -
[26]
Quote:
If your ship doesn't appear till you've loaded the screen, it's no different to warping in to attack someone at the gate/belt/planet/station.
Your ship appears BEFORE your screen is loaded when you jump into a new system.
free speech not allowed here |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:38:00 -
[27]
What it really boils down to are a couple very simple questions and answers.
1. Should there be a way in game to attack someone before they even know its happening ?
Absolutely Not
2. Whos inconvenience is the biggest problem ? Innocents being blown up unknowingly or someone trying to catch another specific player.
The Innocent person being blown up unkowingly is by far the most inconvenienced.
3. Does the fix work and not screw up other things.
Yes it better.
Everything else is really just situation specific and doesnt matter when someone is being killed unknowingly.
This thread was started to try and get the jump in camping fixed. Not to discuss why its done and why its the only way to do certain things.
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:39:00 -
[28]
Quote:
Quote:
If your ship doesn't appear till you've loaded the screen, it's no different to warping in to attack someone at the gate/belt/planet/station.
Your ship appears BEFORE your screen is loaded when you jump into a new system.
Yup, the campers see you a fair while before you see them.
If you're using autopilot you can usually have a bit of invulnerability which saves your ship but it isn't too reliable.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:43:00 -
[29]
The problem of course being that this isn't how it is now but how it will be, there's an o' so subtle difference there called time.
Convert Stations
|
Havocide
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 21:50:00 -
[30]
Gate camping has been removed in all of empire space now unless u have a number of dedicated bbs jamming the sentries which forces us to camp jumpin points as its the only way to get pvp inside empire space now carebears brought it on themselves, there was no need to introduce sentries to 0.4 and lower...
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 22:08:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Balsak on 21/10/2003 22:10:54
Gee you Biomass Cartel guys must have a guilty conscience over this. I never once mentioned any corp over this. This is just a simple blanket request to CCP to prevent Jump In camping. The reason for this is very reasonable since it becuse you can be killed while the screen still says loading.
This thread was started by me not because I got camped and killed because I didnt but a friend of mine did. The really sad part was that he got pod killed after he paid the ransom requested. Now since it was from a pirate I really wouldn't expect anything less from a low life liar.
But again this thread is not to blame pirates or anyone who camps a jump in point. If i were a pirate I would do the exact same thing. Now im getting tired of saying this. CCP is who I blame.
Forget calling people carebears and whatnot. Its just a simple fact that there shouldnt be a way to blow someone up without them having any chance at all which is the way jump-in camping is now. Even if there is no lag from containers or drones we all know CCPs servers and the internet itself in general can lag out causing the loading screen to stay for another 10 seconds or more which is plenty of time to destroy someone.
|
Drethen Nerevitas
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 22:27:00 -
[32]
I never previously stated that the ship doesn't appear till you load.
I said that's a far better way to improve things than randomizing the jumpins.
And it is .
_______________________________________________________________________
IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. |
KIAInkZ
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 22:43:00 -
[33]
Quote:
So what you're sayin KIA is that it's my fault that I didn't scout the routes on every one of my 120 agent missions with an alt?
I'm saying that if you had done that you wouldn't have died. With the current game mechanics it's the only form of defence.
If you'd rather poke yourself in the eye mining scordite, then that's fine too.
---
Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
Homo Erectus
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 23:01:00 -
[34]
when they fix jump in points, you will see alot of skilless newbies from biomass and others cry because they can no longer gank. |
Sargenta
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 23:24:00 -
[35]
It will most likely take a combination of ideas to fix it. Pirates must be given something to go on for their prey and as mentioned before there are only limited spots.
My .02, I think the jump points stay as they are with a mildly random factor of +/- some number < 50 added to either of the coordinate points that make up the jump spot in space. If done in this manner, to the pirates it will be similar to going to a belt hunting NPCs in that you know almost where they will appear but not exactly.
By doing this (along with the full load), the pirates have to setup a real blockade not just stay within jamming range of a single point. It would take a coordinated effort to cover all possible points given +/- 40 km (?) in any direction.
--Disclaimer---
I DO NOT MEAN NERF EVERYTHING.
--End Disclaimerł
Also, a long running common problem is the length of battle. It is fully acceptable that many ships should be able to destroy a single ship in a matter of seconds. But the balance problem seems to be very complex as to what exactly constitutes "many" and ōoddsö. It's made even worse with limited tech because there is a damage limit via certain load outs that are hard to defeat/counter/run-from 1 on 1 much less 3 on 1. Once tech expands this will help some but if it doesnĘt keep expanding then we will be right back at the same place.
Either way, what ever solution is found that fixes these PvP issues will also promote many more people to go farther out or empire space and clear up some other issues. Those that venture out will have a better risk vs. reward equation to contemplate. Right now the equation is simple; I have an insured ship that I want to do something with outside of empire space. That task has to be profitable enough (in some sense) to warrant the risk of warping into some system and getting wasted before my screen loads. To most itĘs not worth it. To some, itĘs not worth it to the point of canceling their subscription.
Loosing a BS or cruiser when you are out numbered and out gunned should happen but the time in battle should be proportional to just how much one side outweighs the other. Five second kills should only fairly be achieved by exceptionally good odds ū not by close odds made exceptional by a glitch. If the sides are even close to equal, the length of battle should be much longer. If not, strategy ends with the first shot because one side has already chosen a path which the other cannot recover from even if fitted to do so. In effect most battle victories are won before they start to the enormous advantage given to the first to ID and attack. So wars of any sort are really only small encounters of who targeted and jammed who first. Even if the ōleadersö of the fighting tell other ships to jointly target and destroy a enemy ship, the strategy is still too limited. If this was not so far out of whack, shield transfers would actually matter in some situations.
Or CCP can just keep on taking our money and changing the rules every so often in one favor or the other.
|
Danny V
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 23:40:00 -
[36]
My .02?
Don't you think it's hard enough for pirates to catch people as it is?
I'm at a point where i don't see a pirate catching me if i am running away unless i'm sleeping (could be wrong as far as the extremely high skilled pirates go), but i'm pretty confident. The fact that i can even say that means nothing else should be done to make things harder for pirates. Scout a system if u have to before you go into it. The map tells you a lot of things, learn the language.
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.21 23:48:00 -
[37]
Well you people can argue all you want about what else should be done but simpley put. Being blown up while still loading is unacceptable for all people in the game. Even if you are the most hated pirate in the game you should not be able to be killed this way. Its just plain lame.
|
Keo Morigan
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 00:08:00 -
[38]
Quote:
Gate camping has been removed in all of empire space now unless u have a number of dedicated bbs jamming the sentries which forces us to camp jumpin points as its the only way to get pvp inside empire space now carebears brought it on themselves, there was no need to introduce sentries to 0.4 and lower...
And as an addition to that, sentry guns will be unjammable soon (if not atm we speak, I havn't tried). And that's just plain stupid, it makes all travelling except 0.0 completely safe, if they do something about the jumpin camping. Complete bull**** actually.
If your not a part of the solution, then you'r probably a part of the problem. |
Johnson McCrae
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 00:11:00 -
[39]
Currently, the jump in points are a bug (and defined by Fuhry(dev) as an exploit to use them). They are trying to fix them to do what their SUPPOSED to do.
Gate to Gate. Jump in points are SUPPOSED to park you at the gate leading to the system you just left. This would allow jumpins the opportunity to escape any gate campers, but less chance for warp inners.
I DO hope they fix this soon(tm).
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
|
StealthNet
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 00:39:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Camping jump in points is not an 'exploit' the GM's have already said so.
*IF* a GM said that, in face of the events happening in TQ, he is really clueless.
_______________________________________________
|
Sargenta
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 01:27:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Sargenta on 22/10/2003 01:33:21
My request is not to make it harder for pirates but to level the playing field so that pirates and lawful can play their role equally well.
Based on posts from some of the notorious pirates in the game, their success rate is horrible unless they do use one of the extremely few ways to pirate namely camping routes.
If we are talking about playing the role of a pirate in this game, then that role should be more than simply picking the most destructive load out followed by picking a gate to camp. Even if you throw team tactics in to play, thatĘs just a group of players picking a load out, followed by a gate. But even that is limited because the team of pirates will pick the load-out best suited for the group which due to a lack of tech is most likely duplicated by other pirate groups. So what's next from that?
The map argument is flawed as well because the lawful can get a indication that the system is dangerous and avoid it but the pirate has no alternative to track a player. Similar to bounty hunter issues.
Most players I think have some sort of thought process they go through when they travel outside of empire space or in a hazardous system that comes down to, yet again, a very limited set of factors: activity in the systems, time of day, risk and level of frustration. These factors all work against the pirate - after some level of kills in a system, people will not travel through it unless the risk warrants it or they are not paying attention. Time of day, some people only travel during certain times to lessen their chances of hitting a pirate stop (num players online should be removed and replaced with weekly non-times usage stats). Risk and frustration - is the task even worth the trouble? With all the CTDs, lagg spikes, etc...the risk and frustration factor seems to be way up.
If pirates are guaranteed success, people will not travel in mass. If travelers are guaranteed passage, pirates will not succeed. One depends on the other and right now pirates are getting those that are so bored with the lack of content that they will risk anything for something different.
Another way to look at the problem is that pirates are not guaranteed any level of success but if they do happen upon a victim the odds of success on that raid greatly favors them. The only way the lawful can defend themselves is to accept initial ship losses and hope that properly equipped help arrives. That's not even defending. At that point it becomes another risk decision - do we risk more ships? And if so, for what? At that point the exact same tactics that the lawful use to evade are available for pirates to avoid repercussions.
I think by finding a solution that increases the chances of player travel, it is possible to increase the pirate hit rate and if the lawful are given a reason and acceptable risk vs reward equation, they will travel.
Trying damn hard to look at it from both sides
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 02:19:00 -
[42]
As much as all the player pirates would hate to see jump in camping removed all you player pirates have to step back and see why jump in camping is a bad thing. Anyone who thinks that jump in camping and killing someone before they even know its happening is acceptable you have serious problems.
Dont say that because you have no other way to what ever it is you want to that makes it alright.
But dont think i want to shut down player pirates cause I dont. Removing piracy would just kill the game completely.
Heres a suggestion to you pirate people. How about grouping up in more than 2 people per group and raid empire space ? Blow up Concord or whatever races military is providing protection in that system.
|
Baun
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 02:22:00 -
[43]
Quick set of questions guys;
If you just always set your autopilot ahead won't it warp you out of a Jump-In point before anyone can lock you?
or
Does the autopilot not activate until your screen has loaded. Hence, is a person with a poor connection and/or a poor computer really entirely helpess until his screen has loaded?
The Enemy's Gate is Down
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 02:54:00 -
[44]
It activates after loading so if you are sitting there for a couple of seconds theres plenty of time to get a lock and warp scramble on.
So yes you are screwed if your connection is lagging a little that day or if CCPs servers are lagging.
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 02:56:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 02:56:57
doh !! double post
|
xpero
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 03:06:00 -
[46]
Quote:
Gate camping has been removed in all of empire space now unless u have a number of dedicated bbs jamming the sentries which forces us to camp jumpin points as its the only way to get pvp inside empire space now carebears brought it on themselves, there was no need to introduce sentries to 0.4 and lower...
I totally agree with you
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 03:13:00 -
[47]
Sooooo.......... because there are sentries at the gates making them very hard to camp its right to allow people to be blown up before they load.
Ummm...... yeah, ok. That makes absolutely no sense.
If there are 2 problems one doesnt make the other ok just because its a problem. They both need fixing then.
|
Hido
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 03:21:00 -
[48]
Well not too long ago (about a week or so ago) I was warping along into another .0 space and guess what? There was this guy sitting in front of the gate with a Blackbird. So I check to see how he looks and he had a positive rating so I think (let me just keep on moving along) which was not a problem. I warp and loading up in the next system and guess what? I seem to have this nimbus around me and think (is it another bug in the game) until I got rude wakeup with cruise missiles being fired my way!!!! So I think (this cannot be good), then think (so that guy was a watch dog who was camping the gate and telling the guys on the other side that somebody is coming through).
As I am sure most of you can imagine I was podded very bloody fast (when you got a BB, Carc and a Scorpion hitting you up). So what I want to know is why are pirates allowed to use this exploit? I do not mind the fact that they podded me cause thats just part of the game but I really did not like the fact that when I loaded up I was sitting there scrambled, netted and jammed. I could not do anything at all which was just plain slaughter.
Just on a side note I have kept the names of those who used this tactic against me so when I get around to it I am going to come and******them
So what is CCP's stand on this? Do I get a refund or should I just lay the blame on fate?
Living the life
Havin it large
Welcome to the land of the rising sun |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 03:26:00 -
[49]
It's really a circular problem.
I've pointed out what'll happen if totally random warp in locations are removed. And it will happen. Faced with losing 90m per ship in a solar system setup as a trap, the prey will log.
Right now the autopilot will 9 times out of 10 warp you away from a jump in camp in the immunity time, short of lag. When spaces before you are placed into the solar system, it will be 10 out of 10. So the immunity timers have to go.
But if the immunity timers go, then a person will escape 0 out of 10 times. A Vigil with a warp scrambler is both fast enough on the lock time to grab, sensor dampen you and hold you till a bship finalizes it with more scramblers and jammers. And it's cheap enough to risk. The end result is made the same: You've jumped in with 0 chance to respond, provide whoever set the trap has Clue #1.
Quite honestly, any gank squad that knows where you're going to be can and will eliminate you before you can do anything. It's just a matter of adding firepower. And all the suggestions I've seen for sa***uards ultimately end with the oppposite, an impossibility to stop anyone that choose to run.
As far as 'tactics' go, jump in camping is either loathsome or worthy of the ultimate of strategists. Take your pick. Personally speaking, I think the perception that only pirates use it blinds people's perception of the larger picture:
How would you catch someone in this game otherwise?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 03:43:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 03:46:47
Jash please. I know you have more intelligence than this.
No matter what other problems exist they do not justify allowing someone to be blown up while loading.
Its simpley unfair to ever ask anyone to accpet the fact that when they spawn in they are dead. Tank CEO doesnt even deserve this.
Just because someone is on dial up and their invulnerability timer wears off before they load and spawn in dead is a pile of crap and you all know it.
I cant wait til one of you gets killed while loading. Ill bet any money that you will be on here *****ing and swearing at CCP to no end. Ive alrady seen you do it.
Now I will remind you all once more.
YOU CANNOT EXPECT ANYONE TO EVER ACCPET BEING KILLED WHILE THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE SYSTEM TO LOAD DUE TO A COUPLE SECONDS LAG EITHER ON CCPS END OR THE PLAYERS END. THIS THREAD ONLY HAS TO DO WITH THAT SIMPLE FACT. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO JUMP IN CAMP BECAUSE YOU CANT CAMP A GATE THEN FIND A WAY TO FIX THAT INSTEAD FIGHTING TO KEEP A LAME ASS TACTIC THAT CCP SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED AT ALL
Sorry for the yelling but some of you just don't seem to get a simple fact.
|
Hido
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 04:21:00 -
[51]
So I guess that means I will not get a refund for me lost ship
I guess I have to go and hunt them buggers down myself. As the saying goes if you see a nail sticking out you have to hammer it in
Living the life
Havin it large
Welcome to the land of the rising sun |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 04:28:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 22/10/2003 04:31:05
Quote:
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 03:46:47
Jash please. I know you have more intelligence than this.
No matter what other problems exist they do not justify allowing someone to be blown up while loading.
Its simpley unfair to ever ask anyone to accpet the fact that when they spawn in they are dead. Tank CEO doesnt even deserve this.
Just because someone is on dial up and their invulnerability timer wears off before they load and spawn in dead is a pile of crap and you all know it.
I cant wait til one of you gets killed while loading. Ill bet any money that you will be on here *****ing and swearing at CCP to no end. Ive alrady seen you do it.
Now I will remind you all once more.
YOU CANNOT EXPECT ANYONE TO EVER ACCPET BEING KILLED WHILE THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE SYSTEM TO LOAD DUE TO A COUPLE SECONDS LAG EITHER ON CCPS END OR THE PLAYERS END. THIS THREAD ONLY HAS TO DO WITH THAT SIMPLE FACT. IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO JUMP IN CAMP BECAUSE YOU CANT CAMP A GATE THEN FIND A WAY TO FIX THAT INSTEAD FIGHTING TO KEEP A LAME ASS TACTIC THAT CCP SHOULD NEVER HAVE ALLOWED AT ALL
Sorry for the yelling but some of you just don't seem to get a simple fact.
I'm looking past the outrage that you're not. Anyone capable of taking down my Tempest without its shield hardeners and boosters in 20 seconds can do so in 40 with them running. The addition of a single ship can render my chances of doing something to watching my ship get destroyed instead of watching a loading screen. The end result is the same: ship is destroyed with no chance to defend it. Two little pirates with a Blackbird taught me that. If they had anything more powerful, the Tempest would have been gone.
Now maybe you're interpretting what I say as promotion for the idea of jump in camping. It's not. I'd prefer it if a person wants to slug it out but I won't kid myself with believing that I could miraculously survive a trap setup for me. Nor have I any illusions I could do anything if I encounter a trap setup for me, except delay the inevitable.
But the frustration I'd feel at finding myself in that situation is nowhere near the level of anger I'd feel at being rendered neutered by being unable to EVER catch anyone. All because someone wanted to watch their ship get destroyed by 6 battleships.
Find a real solution instead of saying anything is better. That's horse****. That's the crap that got us Concord and sentry guns destroying battleships in eyeblinks over splash damage.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 05:16:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 05:19:16
You maybe looking past whatever you think but it still doesn't make sense to allow people to get blown up blindly just so other people may have a way of catching pirates. You and I both know Jash that if you were jump in camped and lagged for a few seconds and then load up to see 3 battleships around your pod would be the first person on the boards here *****ing to CCP about changing that.
Once again and for the last damn time. This is not a thread about why jump in camping is done. This is a thread simpley stating that dieing while loding is simpley stupid and wrong. If you have problems with other aspects of the game then find solutions for them. Dont allow a lame (bug / oversight / exploit / whatever you want to call it ) to fix another problem.
Past problems with catching pirates as well as the current ones have nothing to do with killing while loading.
Now im ******* done with this thread. Enough dumb people have posted here saying the same old crap over and over completely forgetting the real point. They are all just interested in keeping thier oh so precious way of feeling powerful and uber.
I guess boards for all games are the same. No one has any sense of balance. Its either full on carebear or full on anarchy. My post count from this thread alone probably more than tripled my post count here and its probably about to stop where its at now. I got better things to do than to explain simple things to people.
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 05:40:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 05:19:16
You maybe looking past whatever you think but it still doesn't make sense to allow people to get blown up blindly just so other people may have a way of catching pirates. You and I both know Jash that if you were jump in camped and lagged for a few seconds and then load up to see 3 battleships around your pod would be the first person on the boards here *****ing to CCP about changing that.
Once again and for the last damn time. This is not a thread about why jump in camping is done. This is a thread simpley stating that dieing while loding is simpley stupid and wrong. If you have problems with other aspects of the game then find solutions for them. Dont allow a lame (bug / oversight / exploit / whatever you want to call it ) to fix another problem.
Past problems with catching pirates as well as the current ones have nothing to do with killing while loading.
Now im ******* done with this thread. Enough dumb people have posted here saying the same old crap over and over completely forgetting the real point. They are all just interested in keeping thier oh so precious way of feeling powerful and uber.
I guess boards for all games are the same. No one has any sense of balance. Its either full on carebear or full on anarchy. My post count from this thread alone probably more than tripled my post count here and its probably about to stop where its at now. I got better things to do than to explain simple things to people.
I guess you do have better things to do. I've seen enough sacrifice for the sake of balance cause enough woes as it is.
Why not simply demand the removal of non-consentual PvP. If you don't give a damn how it gets solved then you contribute just as much to the next problem that comes along.
You think I enjoyed losing my ships to Concord? You think I enjoyed warping my Tempest out in the middle of nowhere for a half hour because of a ghost message saying I initiated hostilities, afraid Concord would come take it away? You think I enjoy watching the market get pooched through downtime traders, blueprint licenses and having the variation of vanilla thanks to the highways? Think I enjoy ore thieves?
Do you think I enjoy any of the results from half-assed implementations crammed down our throats because of "Just do anything!" mentalities? When have you seen me more ****ed? At getting beat on by someone (and you know damn well I've been grid sploited and jump in camped)? Or at the assed mechanics that have cost me to lose what I've earned in the name of protecting me?
Yeah, right. I'll be one of the first people here to complain about the loss.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Tank CEO
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 06:15:00 -
[55]
Camping the jump in points is the last resort for a pirate. Next patch guns will not be jammable, pretty much godly turrets at every gate. Therefore pirates turn to the last possible way to camp which is not 100% efficient, 50% of them warp away unless you got 10 battleships there.
A simply solution to stop pirates from camping jump in points, 1. Take the sentry guns off the gate until CCP pushes people out into 0.0 space. 2. Make gate warp in's 30km away and not possible to make bookmarks. IN 0.0 space, alot of stargates have quick jump warp in's making camping in 0.0 space not possible and to add to that there is hardly any traffic threw there.
---
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 07:34:00 -
[56]
Well I was done here.
Jash if you wanna keep blowing something as simple as dieing while loading into a pile of other crap then you keep doing that. I dont care anymore. You still have to know that in any game at anytime if a player dies while the game is still loading an area its just completely wrong. Oh yeah I also said I dont care what the fix is AS LONG AS IT DOESNT SCREW UP OTHER THINGS. Thats not saying I dont care no matter what. I will also repeat this part one more time just for you. Just because theres a problem with trapping a player pirate to kill now, that doesnt make it right to be able to just kill someone while they are still loading.
Tank I agree with you 100% on all you said. I hope you agree with what im saying though too Tank. Loading screen death is just plain wrong for anyone in any agme.
I dont want to make a pirates life impossible in Eve. But I also dont want to be giving them free lunches as well. Which is what jump in camping is doing.
Id much rather see gate camping than jump in camping. Jumping into system now is like being blindfolded then told you have to fight someone the first round like this.
What are people gonna think when they jump and when the game finally loads they are in a station wondering WTF just happened ?? This is grounds for people filing petitions and leaving the game.
Now for those that have read everything ive had to say in this thread and still believe that being killed while you are still loading is right. JUST GO AWAY !!
|
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 07:53:00 -
[57]
I think it's time for Gate-to-Gate jumping
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
ProphetGuru
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 08:09:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Camping the jump in points is the last resort for a pirate. Next patch guns will not be jammable, pretty much godly turrets at every gate. Therefore pirates turn to the last possible way to camp which is not 100% efficient, 50% of them warp away unless you got 10 battleships there.
A simply solution to stop pirates from camping jump in points, 1. Take the sentry guns off the gate until CCP pushes people out into 0.0 space. 2. Make gate warp in's 30km away and not possible to make bookmarks. IN 0.0 space, alot of stargates have quick jump warp in's making camping in 0.0 space not possible and to add to that there is hardly any traffic threw there.
Yeah i mean, why should ANYONE be able to survive an encounter with you tank.
I have to believe that somewhere between tank's extremisim, and the "pvp switch" deal, their has to be a compromise. Wish I knew what it was... I DO know, making blockades impossible to get by, is not the answer, just as making blockades 100% possible to get by now, is also the wrong answer.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
|
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 08:12:00 -
[59]
psst, SI's method will still work
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 08:42:00 -
[60]
Quote:
I think it's time for Gate-to-Gate jumping
Gate-to-gate jumping will result in the same situations.
Especially in systems with only 2 gates.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
drunkenmaster
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:09:00 -
[61]
Quote:
psst, SI's method will still work
shhhhhhhhh
While I'm here, I agree that dying before your screen loads is bad.
But of all the different opinions on how to fix it, there is only one that I find acceptable, and that is 'don't put user in space until he has loaded it'
The trouble is, this needs to be done very carefully to avoid other exploits that may arise.
I won't go into details, but most people will be able to think of one or two ways to get round a quickly written system.
Any other fix (random jumpins, etc.) would just hurt gameplay in the long term. And that's not a good thing.
.
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:21:00 -
[62]
Quote:
Quote:
psst, SI's method will still work
shhhhhhhhh
While I'm here, I agree that dying before your screen loads is bad.
But of all the different opinions on how to fix it, there is only one that I find acceptable, and that is 'don't put user in space until he has loaded it'
The trouble is, this needs to be done very carefully to avoid other exploits that may arise.
I won't go into details, but most people will be able to think of one or two ways to get round a quickly written system.
Any other fix (random jumpins, etc.) would just hurt gameplay in the long term. And that's not a good thing.
Does this mean you already have an exploit figured out?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:25:00 -
[63]
1337 ppl will code a programme that allows them to 'hold' the packet carrying the "I loaded space succesfully" information.
=\
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
Pychian Vanervi
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:32:00 -
[64]
How about making the jump in points the gate at the far end, not a random location but slight protection with the sentry guns if an?
-----------------------------
It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:33:00 -
[65]
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/10/2003 09:33:47
"1337 ppl will code a programme that allows them to 'hold' the packet carrying the "I loaded space succesfully" information."
... But there's hardly use for it other than bragging rights, given that as long as they don't send that packet they won't see anything in the system themselves...
|
drunkenmaster
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:36:00 -
[66]
Quote:
1337 ppl will code a programme that allows them to 'hold' the packet carrying the "I loaded space succesfully" information.
=\
exactly.
An old trick from FPS'
This is the most obvious one. I'm sure there will be others.
but I can't see any other way of getting round the problem, although I hope, with all my isk that they can do it.
.
|
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:40:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/10/2003 09:33:47
"1337 ppl will code a programme that allows them to 'hold' the packet carrying the "I loaded space succesfully" information."
... But there's hardly use for it other than bragging rights, given that as long as they don't send that packet they won't see anything in the system themselves...
No, your client loads perfectly, but it doesn't send the packet that tells the server to update the people around you that you've now loaded space and can be legally slaughtered.
So, you can see perfectly what's going on before people even detect you or can target you. Perfect for spies and if you're alone, jsut log off. You'll never die.
(people WILL figure out a way to do this.)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
Lucio
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:48:00 -
[68]
I agree that jump-in point camping is a problem, especially as it allows killing to occur before the player has control of the ship. The trouble is, if you fix that problem pirates will be totally unable to get anyone and that's unfair to them.
Perhaps if CCP introduced a way that pirate corps could raid ships within systems, a scanner module that lets you find a specfic ship plus a module that lets a player know when they're being scanned for. Then pirate corps could scan a system for likely targets and then warp to that position to attack the ship. If the magnetic interference thingy is removed and a flat limit on targeting speed is introduced instead (say a minimum of 1.5 seconds) there's a fair chance for the target to escape if they're good and a fair chance for the pirates to lock, scramble and web before the target escapes.
In line with this though, gate-to-gate jumping would needed to be introduced so that gate-camping would be reduced to nearly nothing.
***********************************************
Elder of Building, Mining & W.E.N.T.B.D.
*********************************************** |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:51:00 -
[69]
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/10/2003 09:54:27
"No, your client loads perfectly, but it doesn't send the packet that tells the server to update the people around you that you've now loaded space and can be legally slaughtered.
So, you can see perfectly what's going on before people even detect you or can target you. Perfect for spies and if you're alone, jsut log off. You'll never die."
Well, even presuming client is actually allowed to display anything without confirmation from server the 'scene loaded' packet has been received, let's see...
client: am jumping in pf-346, send the data.
server: <sends>
server: lemme know when you have everything loaded, mmkay?
client: <loads>
client: ok, am done :D
*nifty packet sniffer intercepts the signal*
l337 hacker: in ya face, CCP! >o
l337 hacker: *checks who's in the jump-in/warp-in point*
server: *twiddles thumbs*
client: yo, server, i want info on that fat ship in the middle, and update me on the changes, k?
server: err, you are still loading the scene ain't you? No updates until you're done, f00
server: <records suspicious request order, just in case someone wants to look into it later>
client: d'oh!
l337 hacker: d'oh!
... in other words, you only get access to brief 'snapshot' from the moment you jump in... sounds like lot of pointless hacking to achieve pretty much what an alt with n00b ship can do as well... o.O
|
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 09:55:00 -
[70]
Yes, but if you don't do anything, the server will never notice ;)
(swivelling the camere is client-side)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 10:07:00 -
[71]
"Yes, but if you don't do anything, the server will never notice ;)
(swivelling the camere is client-side)"
... Perhaps, but note just because you, the user don't to anything doesn't mean the client ain't doing anything meanwhile.... ;s
Plus, it still doesn't seem to offer anything that superior to the usual alt approach.. iirc you can swivel the camera for quite a while even after you get podded and killed? o.O;
|
MOOstradamus
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 11:01:00 -
[72]
Quote:
Gate-to-gate jumping will result in the same situations.
How will it - if Sentry Guns are unjammable 
Gate-to-Gate jumping is the ONLY future - hopefully ... 
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
|
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 11:04:00 -
[73]
MOO, true, in Empire Systems you'd be ok but what about 0.0?
It'd depend on how closely you arrived at the jumpgate, I guess.
I'd still love to see an option to choose your warp-in distance.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Alliah
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 11:10:00 -
[74]
Fair enough for all you campers saying its the only way to catch people, but its a shame that there is no skill in the process - only the old Ive been playing longer and I have a bigger ship. Though I cannot imagine how this will change, it would be nice if CCP could add some more depth to this element of gameplay. What dya think? |
Pychian Vanervi
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 11:10:00 -
[75]
Quote:
MOO, true, in Empire Systems you'd be ok but what about 0.0?
It'd depend on how closely you arrived at the jumpgate, I guess.
I'd still love to see an option to choose your warp-in distance.
Why not have the spawn point when gate to gate jumping a standard 10k, that way you have plenty of safe space between you and a potential attacker.
As for 0.0 space it should be the same, why take away any chance of getting attacked as you travel back and forth in 0.0?
For starter it gives Alliance's a job to do keeping gates camper free (at least in CFS space it does) and also leave some element of risk when hauling, otherwise it would be safe as empire hauling.
-----------------------------
It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
|
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 12:44:00 -
[76]
NPC corporations in empire space could/should themselves lay claim to certain systems or belts therein.
Repeated mining by a party and/or shooting down of the NPC corporations pilots, not serpentis or the usual suspects but empire corporations will result in a lowered standing with that faction and depending on how that system is rigged, what deal they have with Concord this will also affect the police.
In short, massive 'exploiting' of the empires resources results in stripminers being forced out of empire space, forced to relocate or take other countermeassures due to their standings dropping criminal low.
Concord and other law enforcement would do best under this suggested new system if they were triggered to react harsher depending on the size and capacity of the vessel, allowing new meat to mine but coming down hard on battleships doing so...
Convert Stations
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 13:20:00 -
[77]
Quote:
Well I was done here.
Jash if you wanna keep blowing something as simple as dieing while loading into a pile of other crap then you keep doing that. I dont care anymore. You still have to know that in any game at anytime if a player dies while the game is still loading an area its just completely wrong. Oh yeah I also said I dont care what the fix is AS LONG AS IT DOESNT SCREW UP OTHER THINGS. Thats not saying I dont care no matter what. I will also repeat this part one more time just for you. Just because theres a problem with trapping a player pirate to kill now, that doesnt make it right to be able to just kill someone while they are still loading.
Tank I agree with you 100% on all you said. I hope you agree with what im saying though too Tank. Loading screen death is just plain wrong for anyone in any agme.
I dont want to make a pirates life impossible in Eve. But I also dont want to be giving them free lunches as well. Which is what jump in camping is doing.
Id much rather see gate camping than jump in camping. Jumping into system now is like being blindfolded then told you have to fight someone the first round like this.
What are people gonna think when they jump and when the game finally loads they are in a station wondering WTF just happened ?? This is grounds for people filing petitions and leaving the game.
Now for those that have read everything ive had to say in this thread and still believe that being killed while you are still loading is right. JUST GO AWAY !!
And if the resulting 'solution' is a system which makes escape 100% guaranteed for anyone (pirate, corp vs corp, or vigilante looking for revenge) then the solution is not worth the problem. I'd rather lose my ship and retain a viable chance to get retribution than not lose my ship and make it impossible to catch anyone.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Renarah
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 13:22:00 -
[78]
Quote:
"*****" is blocked?!
Norwegian for "*****".
|
Cortex Reaver
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 13:52:00 -
[79]
A) I'm so sick of the whiners that insist that anything in this game that can get you killed by another player is an exploit.
B) I'm even more sick of CCP appeasing these whiners.
I must assume the majority of you are this kind of whiner and that's why CCP is always always always appeasing this kind of whiner to maintain their customer base.
I think your mommy's calling you. It's time for you to drink your juice and watch your CareBears video.
-CR
/*
Cortex Reaver
crtxreavr at trioptimum dot com
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759
*/ |
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 14:54:00 -
[80]
@Jash Illian:
That people can avoid combat too easily is true, but using jump-in points to kill people before they can even react is NOT the solution. You could as well call mugging a valid response to a weak social system.
What we need is
- a VASTLY bigger logout timer for ships. One hour, not one minute perhaps
- ability to scan systemwide for ships
- ability to warp to scan results
- removal of the forced joining of the local chat (that's like a army or command introducing themselves in the area the operate before starting their mission)
free speech not allowed here |
Infinity Ziona
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 15:31:00 -
[81]
I agree, killing people while they're loading is idiotic to say the least but making it too easy to warp out is stupid too.
Some little things to even it up might be to reduce the amount of good roids in +4 and above space.
Increase the amount of good roids in -4 and below space.
Allow ships to be warp jammed while aligning switching off warp.
Get rid of the PC low security threat warning or reduce it in range.
Get rid of the invulnerability while warping.
Reduce the effectiveness of target jamming so that you can still lock but accuracy and damage RoF etc is significantly reduced.
Infinity
|
Rohann
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 15:35:00 -
[82]
I for one hope they fix the jump in camping problem. Whoa!! Did I just say that? Would make killing people more fun. There is no fun in destroying someone that doesnt have a chance in hell to even fight back.
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 16:00:00 -
[83]
Quote:
@Jash Illian:
That people can avoid combat too easily is true, but using jump-in points to kill people before they can even react is NOT the solution. You could as well call mugging a valid response to a weak social system.
What we need is
- a VASTLY bigger logout timer for ships. One hour, not one minute perhaps
- ability to scan systemwide for ships
- ability to warp to scan results
- removal of the forced joining of the local chat (that's like a army or command introducing themselves in the area the operate before starting their mission)
Depends if the 'solution' offered is worse than the problem. To use your example, if the solution were to instantly kill anyone in a ski mask or let any idiot over the age of 12 carry a gun I'd take the chance of getting mugged any day.
People can give you all the time in the world to load, stop to ask you "Are you there?" and proceed to slag you in just as much time with just as much chance of doing anything. Provided they didn't use the time to rabbit, of course . Which is why getting jumped doesn't phase me. Change it any way you want and the people determined to leave you 0 options besides destruction with find a way to leave you 0 options. The only thing you would accomplish is f00king everything else up in the process.
Look at your "VASTLY bigger logout timer for ships. One hour, not one minute perhaps" statement. Fine, a person couldn't hit Esc->Quit Game. So they yank the cord on their modem/router. Apply it to cover that situation and any outage could result in everyone's destruction.
What have you accomplished? Well you can't log or cause a line break to escape.
What have you sacrificed? The ability to survive any partial interruption in your network connection.
Worth the solution? Hell no. And if you didn't apply the logout timer to line break situations, those that log out will simply force a line break to escape. Wasted time and effort.
Balance is Give and Take. This game has been pooched enough by the people only interested in taking. If a method can't be found to resolve the situation without destroying any and all chances of catching a person, sorry. I choose the mugging.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 18:45:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 22/10/2003 18:47:35
Quote:
Depends if the 'solution' offered is worse than the problem. To use your example, if the solution were to instantly kill anyone in a ski mask or let any idiot over the age of 12 carry a gun I'd take the chance of getting mugged any day.
Actaully that IS ATM the "solution" to the problem with avoiding combat. With suitable force you can achieve easily kill rates close to 100% with jumpin camping, especially in fleet battles.
The result is two fleets in two neighbouing systems, both camping the jump point and perhaps talking smack to each other. What a *fun*.
Quote:
People can give you all the time in the world to load, stop to ask you "Are you there?" and proceed to slag you in just as much time with just as much chance of doing anything. Provided they didn't use the time to rabbit, of course . Which is why getting jumped doesn't phase me.
Sorry, but that is an extremly stupid argument. Problem is that you can avoid/detect gatecamping if you are careful by scanning, but there is *no way at all* to see if a system is jumppointcamped besides using an alt to scout. Which is no real option.
Just to avoid a system because it has a high killnumber is usually not possible (because it is a bottleneck you have to go through) and, secondly, usually not needed, since more often than not the jumpgates you want to use are clear.
Quote:
Change it any way you want and the people determined to leave you 0 options besides destruction with find a way to leave you 0 options.
Sure, if I choose to go them. With gatecamping I can see if someone is there, with jumppointcamping I can not.
Nevermind an engagement of equally strong fleets. If one is ambushed by another at a jumppoint it will be at a SEVERE disadvatage, since probably 1/3 - 1/2 of it's members will be dead before they can fire the first shot. If they warp to a gate they will still have a disadvatage, but by NO means one as bad as with the jumpin point.
Quote:
Look at your "VASTLY bigger logout timer for ships. One hour, not one minute perhaps" statement. Fine, a person couldn't hit Esc->Quit Game. So they yank the cord on their modem/router. Apply it to cover that situation and any outage could result in everyone's destruction.
One should also note that CTD have become quite rare since the latest updates.
What have you accomplished? Well you can't log or cause a line break to escape.
What have you sacrificed? The ability to survive any partial interruption in your network connection.
Worth the solution? Hell no. And if you didn't apply the logout timer to line break situations, those that log out will simply force a line break to escape. Wasted time and effort.
To quote yourself:
"I'd rather lose my ship and retain a viable chance to get retribution than not lose my ship and make it impossible to catch anyone."
Can you please tell me why jumpin camping - which has exactly the same effect - is "worth it" and this - which would remove a commenly used combat avoidance tactics - isn't?
Oh, and ATM EVE behaves 100% the same, it doesn't matter if you cut your cable or log out. With both situations you have the current 1 minute logout. I don't think EVE can even discern between both.
Even if it could - that bigger logout would apply for both situations. If you loose connection it is usually because a timeout. In almost all of these cases you can login again right away - usually in under 1 minute. So, if your ship gets destroyed in that time a 1 hour logout wouldn't change a thing there.
People who loose their connection for a longer time would have problems of cource. But, FYI, I'm one of those people who have a big chance of that happening to them. I'm connected with a bugridden laserlink, which crashes now and then and has to be restarted manually, which usually takes more than 30 minutes. But as said, I would *galdly* take the risk of it crashing in a battle to remove this cowards escape loophole.
Quote:
Balance is Give and Take. This game has been pooched enough by the people only interested in taking. If a method can't be found to resolve the situation without destroying any and all chances of catching a person, sorry. I choose the mugging.
I think you are missing my point. Because balance is *exactly* what I have in mind. What needs to be improved are the current combat mechanics (aka social system in my example), which make it currently practically impossible to catch anyone, so people have to resort to exploit loopholes in the game mechanics to catch people at all.
As said, using jumpin points is *not* the solution to the current problems, it's an effect of them.
Basically, I want to install better security systems in shops and improve the social system.
A longer logoff, better scanning options and the removal of the forced local participation would help a lot there. Add t
free speech not allowed here |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 19:34:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 19:46:00
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 19:38:04
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 19:35:49
Quote:
A) I'm so sick of the whiners that insist that anything in this game that can get you killed by another player is an exploit.
B) I'm even more sick of CCP appeasing these whiners.
I must assume the majority of you are this kind of whiner and that's why CCP is always always always appeasing this kind of whiner to maintain their customer base.
I think your mommy's calling you. It's time for you to drink your juice and watch your CareBears video.
-CR
Dude you gotta be kidding me. Im not calling it an exploit nor am I a person whos been on the forums often asking for many changes.
PLAIN AND SIMPLE. THIS IS ABOUT BEING KILLED WHILE YOU ARE LOADING. I DONT CARE ABOUT PIRATES KILLING PEOPLE. I ONLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH BEING ABLE TO BE KILLED BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN SEE YOUR SHIP.
BEING KILLED WHILE LOADING IS NOT A PART OF THE GAME. THIS IS NOT ABOUT BEING A CAREBEAR AND MAKING LIFE IN EVE EASY. I BELIEVE LIFE IN EVE IS TOO EASY ATM.
If you cant understand that dieing while loading is just simpley unfair to EVERYONE in Eve (or any game) then you have a serious mental problem.
I can understand all the reasons given by people on why they think that jump in camping is needed . But allowing blind death is not a fix for those problems at all. Those problems need to be fixed in other ways.
So now I hope that this thread gets looked at by CCP and at the same time gets locked because this thread got tunred into something that has absolutely nothing to do with my original post.
|
Danton Marcellus
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 19:39:00 -
[86]
Look, it's in caps, it's got to be true!
Dying...
Convert Stations
|
MOOstradamus
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 19:40:00 -
[87]
Edited by: MOOstradamus on 22/10/2003 19:45:25
Quote:
MOO, true, in Empire Systems you'd be ok but what about 0.0?
It'd depend on how closely you arrived at the jumpgate, I guess.
I'd still love to see an option to choose your warp-in distance.
I only really care about Empire space though because:
- I'm a carebear
- 0.0 should be completely lawless reflecting its supposed state
Oh and I have always advocated both that there should be a variable/selectable Warp-in distance and that the logout/timeout period should be significantly greater
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 19:58:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Quote:
People can give you all the time in the world to load, stop to ask you "Are you there?" and proceed to slag you in just as much time with just as much chance of doing anything. Provided they didn't use the time to rabbit, of course . Which is why getting jumped doesn't phase me.
Sorry, but that is an extremly stupid argument. Problem is that you can avoid/detect gatecamping if you are careful by scanning, but there is *no way at all* to see if a system is jumppointcamped besides using an alt to scout. Which is no real option.
Just to avoid a system because it has a high killnumber is usually not possible (because it is a bottleneck you have to go through) and, secondly, usually not needed, since more often than not the jumpgates you want to use are clear.
If more often or not the jumpgates are clear, I see no reason to make it so that escaping someone is 100% guaranteed to avoid the minority where they're not clear. If that's the cost, sorry. Too high, just like every other 'solution' implemented so far that's caused nothing more than greater headaches.
Or you think the complaints will get better when instead of the fewer complaints of "I died at a jump in camp" we get the greater number of complaints "I can't kill XXX"?
Quote:
Quote:
Change it any way you want and the people determined to leave you 0 options besides destruction with find a way to leave you 0 options.
Sure, if I choose to go them. With gatecamping I can see if someone is there, with jumppointcamping I can not.
And that's the point: the overwhelming number of people that will choose not to go there. Why the hell bother to have PvP in the game?
Quote:
Nevermind an engagement of equally strong fleets. If one is ambushed by another at a jumppoint it will be at a SEVERE disadvatage, since probably 1/3 - 1/2 of it's members will be dead before they can fire the first shot. If they warp to a gate they will still have a disadvatage, but by NO means one as bad as with the jumpin point.
\Am"bush\, n. [F. emb[^u]che, fr. the verb. See Ambush, v. t.] 1. A disposition or arrangement of troops for attacking an enemy unexpectedly from a concealed station. Hence: Unseen peril; a device to entrap; a snare.
You're not supposed to know they're there. Hence calling it an "Ambush". You're not supposed to have a fighting chance, hence using the ambush to kill people.
Quote:
To quote yourself:
"I'd rather lose my ship and retain a viable chance to get retribution than not lose my ship and make it impossible to catch anyone."
Can you please tell me why jumpin camping - which has exactly the same effect - is "worth it" and this - which would remove a commenly used combat avoidance tactics - isn't?
Because I don't believe in "By any means necessary". Famous quote. I admired the man. But he was wrong on that particular point.
Quote:
I think you are missing my point. Because balance is *exactly* what I have in mind. What needs to be improved are the current combat mechanics (aka social system in my example), which make it currently practically impossible to catch anyone, so people have to resort to exploit loopholes in the game mechanics to catch people at all.
...
For one thing, an ambush isn't supposed to be balanced. You walk into an ambush, you're supposed to either have vastly better skill or vastly larger numbers to survive it.
Tracking? Have you ever tried to catch someone even when you know where they are and where they're going? I've followed people through 3 warps before. Given the capability, I could have followed them all night long for what it'd be worth. Only a complete idiot will get caught. Doesn't matter if you know which way they went. Doesn't matter if you know where they are.
If it takes an hour of warping around the system to convince someone to give up, then the hour will be spent. Two hours needed? Two hours spent. It is already nearly impossible to force a person to fight already. And short of nerfs that would make other people scream bloody murder, it will remain so.
So would I risk pooching the entire possibility of catching a person with poorly conceived 'solutions' to solve a situation that doesn't exist 99 jumps out of 100?
No
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Stoop
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 20:04:00 -
[89]
Quote:
Camping jump in points is not an 'exploit' the GM's have already said so.
Rohann you said just the other day that you had the jump in EXPLOIT used on you the other day.
Please!
Please, Please!
STOP posting.
|
Rohann
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 20:18:00 -
[90]
Quote:
But dont think i want to shut down player pirates cause I dont. Removing piracy would just kill the game completely.
Heres a suggestion to you pirate people. How about grouping up in more than 2 people per group and raid empire space ? Blow up Concord or whatever races military is providing protection in that system.
Umm attacking Concord is very stupid and they have endless amounts of ships that would destroy us. Why would we do that? Why would you suggest it unless your a brainless idiot?
|
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 20:26:00 -
[91]
Thanks for the uncalled for insult Rohann
|
Ana Khouri
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 22:58:00 -
[92]
You know what I really hate? Spending 20 minutes to write a LONG answer, then misclicking and having all deleted. *sigh*
ANYWAY:
Earth-to-Jash-Illian: For the THRID time, I aggree with you that avoiding combat is far too easy ATM in EVE. So, please don't come me with arguments like
Quote:
I see no reason to make it so that escaping someone is 100% guaranteed to avoid the minority where they're not clear.
Reality News: Neither do I. But neither do I aggree with you that jumpin point camping is the "solution". It's not fun for both partys (you could as well shoot roids for all that "challange") and brings fleet battles to a standstill ("Come one, you cowards, jump! - No, you jump!"...).
Because of this I suggested some changes to the current system. So, could you please stop your whining for a change, oben you apperently extremly well closed mind and follow me for a second?
First, we have the already announced anti-warp bubbles around gates. It would be good to get them around stations, too. With them instawarp bookmarks won't be possible anymore.
Then, I would suggest a 15-20 sec warp cooldown after you come out of warp (warp drive has to recharge or something) - that should give pirates plenty of time to lock someone. Note that that will not increase travel times, since when you jump into a system you were not warping then, but jumping.
Add to this the option to log out of local, so you cannot see instantly if there is a big enemy presence and it would be better to warp to a safe BM andlog out.
YOu can still detect enemys if you do a good scan of a system, but that will cost a lot of time - so not everyone will make it. If they don't do it and you are waiting for them - well, they are toast then. But they had the possibility to avoid it, unlike with jumpin camping.
Now what if they see you? Two possibilities.
- You could have a cloaked jammer at the gate, who holds the ship until the fleet arrives from it's hiding place somewhere else from the system.
The second possibility is part of my final suggestion: A systemwide scanner, specialized on ships. Meaning it searches only for them - otherwise it will have WAY too long scanning times. And a ability to warp to any scan results. It should be an extra module with a powercore req of 50+, so indys cannot use it. If they want to they can hire an escort.
So, let's say the target has & uses one and detects your fleet. With 1 hour logout it cannot simply do this, because it will be very likely that your fleet detects and destroys him before that time. So, basically, you will have a big cat and mouse at your hands. If you have ships to guard the stations (which will be almost impossible with the 15 station system you mentioned - but noone forces you to lay a trap there - there should be other, more suitable systems present in eve) and gates of that system you will finally catch the target. It will take time and won't be as easy as simply kill him while he doesn't even know he's been shot at, but will be actually fun and a challange.
Oh, you don't want that? My bad.
free speech not allowed here |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 23:10:00 -
[93]
Quote:
You know what I really hate? Spending 20 minutes to write a LONG answer, then misclicking and having all deleted. *sigh*
ANYWAY:
Earth-to-Jash-Illian: For the THRID time, I aggree with you that avoiding combat is far too easy ATM in EVE. So, please don't come me with arguments like
Quote:
I see no reason to make it so that escaping someone is 100% guaranteed to avoid the minority where they're not clear.
Reality News: Neither do I. But neither do I aggree with you that jumpin point camping is the "solution". It's not fun for both partys (you could as well shoot roids for all that "challange") and brings fleet battles to a standstill ("Come one, you cowards, jump! - No, you jump!"...).
Because of this I suggested some changes to the current system. So, could you please stop your whining for a change, oben you apperently extremly well closed mind and follow me for a second?
First, we have the already announced anti-warp bubbles around gates. It would be good to get them around stations, too. With them instawarp bookmarks won't be possible anymore.
Then, I would suggest a 15-20 sec warp cooldown after you come out of warp (warp drive has to recharge or something) - that should give pirates plenty of time to lock someone. Note that that will not increase travel times, since when you jump into a system you were not warping then, but jumping.
Add to this the option to log out of local, so you cannot see instantly if there is a big enemy presence and it would be better to warp to a safe BM andlog out.
YOu can still detect enemys if you do a good scan of a system, but that will cost a lot of time - so not everyone will make it. If they don't do it and you are waiting for them - well, they are toast then. But they had the possibility to avoid it, unlike with jumpin camping.
Now what if they see you? Two possibilities.
- You could have a cloaked jammer at the gate, who holds the ship until the fleet arrives from it's hiding place somewhere else from the system.
The second possibility is part of my final suggestion: A systemwide scanner, specialized on ships. Meaning it searches only for them - otherwise it will have WAY too long scanning times. And a ability to warp to any scan results. It should be an extra module with a powercore req of 50+, so indys cannot use it. If they want to they can hire an escort.
So, let's say the target has & uses one and detects your fleet. With 1 hour logout it cannot simply do this, because it will be very likely that your fleet detects and destroys him before that time. So, basically, you will have a big cat and mouse at your hands. If you have ships to guard the stations (which will be almost impossible with the 15 station system you mentioned - but noone forces you to lay a trap there - there should be other, more suitable systems present in eve) and gates of that system you will finally catch the target. It will take time and won't be as easy as simply kill him while he doesn't even know he's been shot at, but will be actually fun and a challange.
Oh, you don't want that? My bad.
I don't deal with wishful thinking. Wishful thinking would have been implementing any number of the better thought out implementations for restructuring Concord.
Reality is getting an ass whipping by ships and sentry guns players will never see.
Given CCP's history for dealing with situations of this type, wishful thinking is what you just posted.
Reality is likely to be hearing complaints from every corporation in a war and every wannabe vigilante about never being able to catch a single person. While what's left of pirating will be waiting for the CoH expansion pack to be a super villian.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 23:28:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Balsak on 22/10/2003 23:30:51
Thank you Ana. You did a much better job of explaing what I was saying than I could. hehe
You keep missing the boat on this completely though Jash. Being destroyed while loading in any game has never been allowed for one simple reason. Its just not a game when you die that way. If death wasn't so costly in Eve then leaving things the way they are now whould be fine. I wouldnt like it but atleast it would be affordable. But since death is so costly in Eve this is simply not ok.
Yes there are problems with catching someone you may be after but that still doesnt justify allowing people to be blown up before they even know they are under attack. You wanted to keep putting your own words in my mouth. I never once said that a person should be able to get away 100% of the time or that the fix needs to come no matter what happens. Im done repeating what ive always said from the beginning. Hope it finally sinks in Jash.
|
Veridet Faulk
|
Posted - 2003.10.22 23:50:00 -
[95]
Locked at authors request..
*click*
Veridet Faulk
"Well I have seen the contestants and I feel that I am especially attracted to Veridet Faulk. I know that she is a member of the Polaris Corporation that operates inside Jove space, and JovianĘs are particularly hideous, but she is different. I feel particular heart warming friendliness from herą if you know what I mean"- Playboy Enterprises
Forum Rules | EVE Online Support |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |