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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
417
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 21:34:00 -
[10081] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If local isn't an issue everywhere it exists, then we have to look at the factors that are not the same in all those areas.
Hmm... seems like player effort is the difference.
No, the difference is the type of PvE content and average population.
Local isn't an issue in highsec because there are tons of zero-threat players in local at all times, so a hunter being in local doesn't alert their prey. It's a minor issue for wars, but only a minor one because most PvP in highsec is against lazy and/or stupid targets who happen to drift into a lazy ganker's sights while AFKing between gates.
Local is a different issue in lowsec because the PvE content is short in duration and usually protected by size-restricted gates and/or signatures that have to be scanned down. Local still gives you warning of any possible threat, and that's a problem, but it's more tempting to PvE with a hostile in local and depend on d-scan to keep you safe. And AFK cloaking is not an appealing counter to local in lowsec because of the short duration. If you aren't warping in immediately to attack then your target is going to finish their PvE site and move on, staying cloaked means that you aren't fast enough to catch them.
Local is a huge problem in nullsec because systems are mostly empty (meaning any non-blue in local is clearly identifiable) and PvE strongly encourages staying with a single system/site for an extended period of time. You can't just run out the clock on the PvE site before the hunter gets to you, so you're not going to try. You're just going to dock up the moment a potential threat appears in local, far faster than the threat can reach you and get a point on you. AFK cloaking is the only answer to the near-100% safety provided by local in nullsec, you have to populate local with potential threats 23/7 so that PvE players have to make a choice between accepting a little risk or never getting to PvE again. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6516
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 23:51:23 -
[10082] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If local isn't an issue everywhere it exists, then we have to look at the factors that are not the same in all those areas.
Hmm... seems like player effort is the difference.
Well gee Mike, where is it not a problem and where is it a problem?
Not a problem in HS*? Why on earth might that be?
Not a problem in w-space? Why on earth might that be? Maybe because local is delayed until one actually uses it as a chat channel?
The problem in LS and NS where people use it as the bedrock of their intel systems which in turn leads to AFK cloaking.
*Although local is useful when in a war dec or scouting for suicide gankers for a freighter.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6516
|
Posted - 2017.05.27 23:52:09 -
[10083] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:If local isn't an issue everywhere it exists, then we have to look at the factors that are not the same in all those areas.
Hmm... seems like player effort is the difference. You truly are a so ******* dumb it's unbelievable.
While I generally go with dumb over mendacious, not in this case.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1217
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 00:12:27 -
[10084] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:If local isn't an issue everywhere it exists, then we have to look at the factors that are not the same in all those areas.
Hmm... seems like player effort is the difference.
Good point. let's get rid of concord and local in all areas of space. That way player effort is equal everywhere. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1211
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 18:42:08 -
[10085] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:If local isn't an issue everywhere it exists, then we have to look at the factors that are not the same in all those areas.
Hmm... seems like player effort is the difference. Well gee Mike, where is it not a problem and where is it a problem? Not a problem in HS*? Why on earth might that be? Not a problem in w-space? Why on earth might that be? Maybe because local is delayed until one actually uses it as a chat channel? The problem is in LS and NS where people use it as the bedrock of their intel systems which in turn leads to AFK cloaking. In short, any doorknob knows that there are differences in terms of in game mechanics between NS, LS, w-space and HS. Primarily dealing with aggression and the attendant repercussions. If you engage in illegal aggression in HS you will have your ship destroyed. That is not the case in NS, at least not with the certainty that is present in HS. So HS players see a neutral in local and it has no impact at all, they just keep going about their business. I know you know this. So what is the point here other than being mendacious? *Although local is useful when in a war dec or scouting for suicide gankers for a freighter.
You are dancing all over it yourself with wardecs and suicide ganking. People still die from aggression, and local didn't protect them because they didn't go through the effort of making it useful.
It's much the same in LS. You *can* clear LS if you want with only slightly more fuss than Null Sec, but people don't...and thus it's not the same kind of problem for hunters either.
Wormholes are completely beyond the scope of a conversation involving local.
Only in NS are folks so butthurt that they litter space with throw away alts in cloaked ships because their joyride looking for soft targets is actually contested by dedicated defenders. It's not really about local at all, it's all about player efforts thwarting you. |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
1473
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 20:00:20 -
[10086] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Only in NS are folks so butthurt that they litter space with throw away alts in cloaked ships because their joyride looking for soft targets is actually contested by dedicated defenders. It's not really about local at all, it's all about player efforts thwarting you. https://i.giphy.com/Vg0JstydL8HCg.gif
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1218
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 20:31:46 -
[10087] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Only in NS are folks so butthurt that they litter space with throw away alts in cloaked ships because their joyride looking for soft targets is actually contested by dedicated
Why are you a soft target if you are PvE-ing in null? |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
1473
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 20:44:26 -
[10088] - Quote
Sonya Corvinus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Only in NS are folks so butthurt that they litter space with throw away alts in cloaked ships because their joyride looking for soft targets is actually contested by dedicated Why are you a soft target if you are PvE-ing in null? Not only is he a soft target, but he's also not protected by these "dedicated defenders" he mentioned.
You know, Mike. If there are "dedicated defenders", then why do you even care about AFK cloaking? After all you got dedicated defenders that are going to defend you, so that person that may or may not be there shouldn't pose any problem. At that point it really just comes down to your own incompetence.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
|
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6517
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 22:28:03 -
[10089] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:If local isn't an issue everywhere it exists, then we have to look at the factors that are not the same in all those areas.
Hmm... seems like player effort is the difference. Well gee Mike, where is it not a problem and where is it a problem? Not a problem in HS*? Why on earth might that be? Not a problem in w-space? Why on earth might that be? Maybe because local is delayed until one actually uses it as a chat channel? The problem is in LS and NS where people use it as the bedrock of their intel systems which in turn leads to AFK cloaking. In short, any doorknob knows that there are differences in terms of in game mechanics between NS, LS, w-space and HS. Primarily dealing with aggression and the attendant repercussions. If you engage in illegal aggression in HS you will have your ship destroyed. That is not the case in NS, at least not with the certainty that is present in HS. So HS players see a neutral in local and it has no impact at all, they just keep going about their business. I know you know this. So what is the point here other than being mendacious? *Although local is useful when in a war dec or scouting for suicide gankers for a freighter. You are dancing all over it yourself with wardecs and suicide ganking. People still die from aggression, and local didn't protect them because they didn't go through the effort of making it useful. It's much the same in LS. You *can* clear LS if you want with only slightly more fuss than Null Sec, but people don't...and thus it's not the same kind of problem for hunters either. Wormholes are completely beyond the scope of a conversation involving local. Only in NS are folks so butthurt that they litter space with throw away alts in cloaked ships because their joyride looking for soft targets is actually contested by dedicated defenders. It's not really about local at all, it's all about player efforts thwarting you.
They don't go through the effort because dying to aggression in HS is very, very rare. And by that I mean the incidence rate. A neutral in NS is far more likely to be a direct threat than a neutral in HS. You absolutely know this. People who are not in a war dec and are not mining in a retriever or covetor can safely ignore local because the repercussions for doing so is so low. Why is that? CONCORD.
In NS, CONCORD is not there, and that makes local far, far more valuable because ignoring what it is telling you is far more likely to lead to significant loss.
And you have it wrong, most NS players do not come crying to the forums. The players who are truly butthurt are you and those like you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1211
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 22:41:34 -
[10090] - Quote
That is because local defense does not allow neutrals to remain unmolested in Null Sec.
That's called player effort. |
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6517
|
Posted - 2017.05.28 23:21:10 -
[10091] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:That is because local defense does not allow neutrals to remain unmolested in Null Sec.
That's called player effort.
That effort is for defending one's space, not local. Local is what lets you know a hostile is there. There is no effort expended to defend local, none is needed. Nor is there hardly any effort expended to obtain the benefits of local.
Or let me put it this way, local facilitates player effort to secure their space. Local makes it easier to defend one's space...it reduces effort.
Local is the problem, AFK cloak is the symptom.
Dealing with the symptom, while ignoring the problem, will almost surely lead to new problems, possibly even worse problems....or changes that come with a nerf to AFK cloaking that you simply will not like at all.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
1218
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 00:23:27 -
[10092] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:That is because local defense does not allow neutrals to remain unmolested in Null Sec.
That's called player effort.
Is player effort needed on the PvE side of things?
A simple yes/no answer is good enough. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1213
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 04:24:45 -
[10093] - Quote
It's an MMO. You are allowed to let your friends help you. It's even better if you specialize in one thing and they specialize in another so your skills can complement eachother. |
Tessa Sage
Legion of the Wicked Way ChaosTheory.
11
|
Posted - 2017.05.29 09:49:33 -
[10094] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:It's an MMO. You are allowed to let your friends help you. It's even better if you specialize in one thing and they specialize in another so your skills can complement eachother.
I'm taking a page from a resourceful mentor here, to highlight one strength friendlies in the same local can count on:
Chance Ravinne wrote:As a dirty cloaker I feel the problem is psychological, not mechanical. That said, the psychological fear seems to stem primarily from cynos, which are a largely broken mechanic (imo). Anywhere that cynos are not a threat, cloaky camping is not widely feared. Not a coincidence!
You see when it comes to a solo cloaky entering sov space, their combat profile is only a zkill query away. If the toon is a known hot dropper, people clear out / dock up and the assets standing by to hot drop in are blue balled. If instead, like Ravinne pointed, that toon is unlikely to wield a cyno, said cloaky might as well be baited to aggress.
This reduces the chances of a desirable end game for the cloaky present in system, and further reinforces the viewpoint / argument that a cloaked ship in local cannot be a threat beyond a visual deterrent for the more squeamish. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1214
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 03:36:08 -
[10095] - Quote
And this excuses unlimited time under a cloak how?
I mean, that's the whole central issue here. People do want to defend their space, prevent the gathering of intel, and do all manner of things to ships that have cloaks on them for no better reason than those ships are out in space. As this is EVE, that's the only reason anyone needs to have that chance, narrow though it may be.
Cloaks don't meet that standard though. A cloak can stay 100% safe for an unlimited time. Either the 100% safe needs to come down, or a reasonable time constraint be applied.
It's not a Local problem. Local is balanced all on its own by working the same for everybody (insert boilerplate). The issue is that cloaks have too much power, and the whiny children who rely on them are terrified a Dev might some day fix that so they reach for every shred of nonsense they can to try and defend it. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6533
|
Posted - 2017.05.30 05:14:42 -
[10096] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:And this excuses unlimited time under a cloak how?
I mean, that's the whole central issue here. People do want to defend their space, prevent the gathering of intel, and do all manner of things to ships that have cloaks on them for no better reason than those ships are out in space. As this is EVE, that's the only reason anyone needs to have that chance, narrow though it may be.
Cloaks don't meet that standard though. A cloak can stay 100% safe for an unlimited time. Either the 100% safe needs to come down, or a reasonable time constraint be applied.
It's not a Local problem. Local is balanced all on its own by working the same for everybody (insert boilerplate). The issue is that cloaks have too much power, and the whiny children who rely on them are terrified a Dev might some day fix that so they reach for every shred of nonsense they can to try and defend it.
It is a local problem. The issue is not cynos. As the w-space people have pointed out a new connection forming in a wormhole is pretty much like a covert ops cyno. Local does not work the same for everyone. The person in system has a distinct advantage of being warned before the person entering system even loads grid.
And cloaks are 100% only when they are at a secret safe and do nothing. That safety is in essence self-limiting. This has been gone over to death. Cloaks are not safe when you are on the move. Not 100%. And if you are going to lose your space to some AFK cloaky campers, you were never going to hold that space anyways.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1214
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 06:48:27 -
[10097] - Quote
Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?
Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).
Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.
I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked. |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
1485
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 08:03:37 -
[10098] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?
Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).
Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.
I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked. Yeah, Mike. He accuses you of intellectual dishonesty because he thinks you're smart enough to understand that the points you make are just whining to push your agenda for safe space.
I, on the other hand, think you're an idiot. You lack the intelligence to understand it and that's why you constantly rehash the same crap that has been logically debunked again and again. There is no "discussion" with people like you because you are incapable of comprehending the subject matter. All you see is AFK cloaking and you want it gone because it violates your safe space, but you lack the intelligence to understand why AFK cloaking exists in the first place.
You don't get rid of a disease by treating the symptoms, you do it by removing the cause of the symptoms. Otherwise you have accomplished nothing, with different symptoms appearing as time goes on.
And your "local works the same for everyone" is only true so long as you completely disregard the underlying space mechanics. The gameplay mechanics in highsec, lowsec, npc nullsec and sov nullsec differ wildly and AFK cloaking is only "a problem" in sov nullsec. No other kind of space is complaining about it. You know why? Because in highsec nobody can shoot you without consequences and it's already cramped up with neutrals (wardeccers use neutral alts to circumvent local intel) and in lowsec and npc nullsec you find people that aren't victims by default that start crying the moment someone dares look at them.
Spin it all you want, but local in sov nullsec is heavily favoring the space holder, whereas in every other part of space it's more balanced due to the way the underlying space mechanics work. If you want to reap the rewards of high-risk space, then suck it up and take the high risk instead of wanting to avoid it with every trick possible. You either get high-risk -> high-reward or non-existential risk -> pathetically low reward. Right now, you have the best of both thanks to local and that's just so unbalanced that it's a really sad joke.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
376
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 08:14:50 -
[10099] - Quote
*scratches head*
Ok, so i f local is not the problem, and indefinite cloaking is not the problem.........
Killboards? |
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale Black Marker
1485
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 08:18:28 -
[10100] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:*scratches head*
Ok, so i f local is not the problem, and indefinite cloaking is not the problem.........
Killboards? Local is the problem. Indefinite cloaking can't be a problem beyond mind games, because a cloaker can't do **** while he's cloaked. He has to decloak to do anything at all and is then subject to the same space pewpew as everyone else, in a ship that's inferior to non-covops.
When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.
|
|
baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18935
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 12:27:53 -
[10101] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?
Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).
[/quote]
They will still track you as you move system to system so the early warning still works and by the time you align, warp and then land at whatever you are targeting they are long gone because you popped up in local. This changes very little in reality. |
OffBeaT
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 13:19:16 -
[10102] - Quote
I don't know about you guys but in my systems there was 150 pods in one day popped and that is with in five jumps in most ways, so its always nasty. Most of us don't move in ships any bigger then a Indy or frig/dd these days with all the probes & interdictors out there. They don't just come for you with one interdictor its more like 3 to a gang these days with probe ships. Safe spots get found out so fast these days you don't even have time to get to one to cloak if your working in a BS. Saying that I don't think you should be able to afk cloak for ever but know its a risk to make cloaking to ineffective as well," You just will never get left alone to get anything done in low sec/00". So I hope its keeped in mine people have to work and get things done in sec/00 space to achieve things in the game as goals to do and should be able to have a fair defence against pvpers who don't really care on players doing anything other then getting popped for them as fast as they can get it done. I don't wont cloaking to end up useless so whatever we do keep it useful to attack & doge with. I like probes with dd depth charge attacks to search them out and catch. probes can range them down with in 300km or so and depth bomb them down to uncloak.
I don't see cloaking as game camping this isn't quake," know one wonts a easy pop in eve all the time it just makes the game look stupid.". |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1215
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 18:22:00 -
[10103] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?
Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).
They will still track you as you move system to system so the early warning still works and by the time you align, warp and then land at whatever you are targeting they are long gone because you popped up in local. This changes very little in reality.[/quote]
You mean multiple people will track you as you move through systems, creating intel channels to support their operations?
Yeah, see, that's called player effort. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1215
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 18:30:24 -
[10104] - Quote
Linus Gorp wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?
Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).
Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.
I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked. Yeah, Mike. He accuses you of intellectual dishonesty because he thinks you're smart enough to understand that the points you make are just whining to push your agenda for safe space. I, on the other hand, think you're an idiot. You lack the intelligence to understand it and that's why you constantly rehash the same crap that has been logically debunked again and again. There is no "discussion" with people like you because you are incapable of comprehending the subject matter. All you see is AFK cloaking and you want it gone because it violates your safe space, but you lack the intelligence to understand why AFK cloaking exists in the first place. You don't get rid of a disease by treating the symptoms, you do it by removing the cause of the symptoms. Otherwise you have accomplished nothing, with different symptoms appearing as time goes on. And your "local works the same for everyone" is only true so long as you completely disregard the underlying space mechanics. The gameplay mechanics in highsec, lowsec, npc nullsec and sov nullsec differ wildly and AFK cloaking is only "a problem" in sov nullsec. No other kind of space is complaining about it. You know why? Because in highsec nobody can shoot you without consequences and it's already cramped up with neutrals (wardeccers use neutral alts to circumvent local intel) and in lowsec and npc nullsec you find people that aren't victims by default that start crying the moment someone dares look at them. Spin it all you want, but local in sov nullsec is heavily favoring the space holder, whereas in every other part of space it's more balanced due to the way the underlying space mechanics work. If you want to reap the rewards of high-risk space, then suck it up and take the high risk instead of wanting to avoid it with every trick possible. You either get high-risk -> high-reward or non-existential risk -> pathetically low reward. Right now, you have the best of both thanks to local and that's just so unbalanced that it's a really sad joke.
This is where you prove how dense you are.
I don't believe AFK cloaking to be a problem, except that it's the only afk thing actually improved by going afk.
Afk should degrade your performance and open you up to greater risk. This is true of everything but camping under a cloak.
SOV nullsec is *supposed* to heavily favor the holder. That's the whole point in holding the space in the first place. It's not just about sticking your name in the autopilot box, it's about actually getting benefits.
Cloaks are a problem, everywhere, anytime they are in use. They are too strong. Afk camping isn't an issue, it should just lead to popped ships if left alone too long, instead of permanently limiting defense strategies to ineffective passive means that tie up multiple accounts 'dealing' with one newbie ship that you managed to sneak into system during the local's down time one night.
You want local's to work for their defense... well, they do. How about you work for your offense too?
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baltec1
Bat Country Pandemic Legion
18940
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 18:39:49 -
[10105] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You mean multiple people will track you as you move through systems, creating intel channels to support their operations?
Yeah, see, that's called player effort.
And its only counter is AFK cloaking.
Mike Voidstar wrote:
You want local's to work for their defense... well, they do. How about you work for your offense too?
Spending a few days/weeks being unable to do anything on that account is a hefty sacrifice in order to have a chance of catching something. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6539
|
Posted - 2017.05.31 18:52:06 -
[10106] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?
Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).
Other than the loading delay (this is the boilerplate), local works the same for everyone, everywhere it's actually a thing. Thus not in wormholes, we get that too.
I know you like to try and derail things with pointless drivel, but honestly... You accuse others of intellectual dishonesty and then you hide behind pedantic stupidity so that anyone that attempts to actually have a discussion wastes 90% of their word count in rehashing previously covered points because you will pretend like those parts of the discussion haven't happened because you have nothing new and you just want to rely on 7 year old dogmatic garbage long ago debunked.
I have never said it was game breaking, but FFS at least be honest about it and stop saying local works the same for everyone. It quite clearly does not.
You can avoid the rehashing by not lying. Stop saying it works the same.
And how can it be debunked if you admit it is true.
Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6539
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Posted - 2017.05.31 18:55:25 -
[10107] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Christ Teckos, what do you think that (insert boilerplate) means?
Yes, yes, yes... we get it. That second or two of grid loading is absolutely game breaking for you. So there is a suggestion on the table that fixes that by keeping you out of local (exactly the thing you have asked for quite a bit) so long as the gate cloak is on you (limiting that to the only point when it's actually a problem).
They will still track you as you move system to system so the early warning still works and by the time you align, warp and then land at whatever you are targeting they are long gone because you popped up in local. This changes very little in reality.[/quote]
This too. Local feeds into intel networks and for a group with a larger number of systems you are more likely to be reported. A group with a large number of systems and a dense population will be even more effective at tracking you.
Now, I'm not saying any of this is game breaking, but nerfing cloaks given these advantages that Mike wants to hide behind *insert boiler plate* and then claim local works the same everywhere and for everyone is pretty dishonest, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
376
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Posted - 2017.06.01 02:51:57 -
[10108] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't.
How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec? Highsec and Nullsec? Losec and Nullsec? |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
421
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 04:10:30 -
[10109] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec? Highsec and Nullsec? Losec and Nullsec?
This has already been explained, many times.
Local in highsec is different because PvP threats are virtually nonexistent and local is full of harmless neutrals. Unlike nullsec, where any player without a blue + on their name is an obvious threat, watching local in highsec isn't going to tell you anything about how safe you are.
Local in lowsec is different because nothing of value exists in lowsec. It's entirely a PvP battleground, so while local does provide intel on enemy PvP forces anyone in lowsec is there looking for a fight and there's much less incentive to immediately dock up if even the slightest potential threat appears. The lone exception is FW farmers, but they're flying heavily-stabbed disposable T1 frigates and almost impossible to catch even if they ignore local entirely. |
Teckos Pech
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
6541
|
Posted - 2017.06.01 04:11:27 -
[10110] - Quote
Max Deveron wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Here is the strategy for you going forward, stop saying local work the same for everyone. It doesn't.
How does Local work differently between Highsec and Losec? Highsec and Nullsec? Losec and Nullsec?
The differences are not between different security states of systems, but between an incumbent and entrant. Mechanically local works the same in HS, LS and NS.
If you are in system already and I jump in you will see me in local before I load grid. That brief span of time will give you more than enough time to warp out before I can land and do anything to you. Hence the incumbent always has the defensive advantage. Always (except w-space where nobody shows in local except by choice).
Edit: Also, Merin's point is that while local is mechanically the same between HS, LS, NS people use them differently in HS than in LS/NS. This is mainly due to other differences in mechanics namely CONCORD. The threat of CONCORD punishment in HS means that you can safely ignore everyone in local unless you under a wardec or maybe worried about suicide gankers.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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