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A comment on DT in general (not today's)

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Colonel Ripper The Older Gamers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.20 06:04:00 - [31] On the one hand it does cut aussie prime time (or PacNW prime if ur a shift worker like me :) ), but on the other, you do get better access to the juicy npc/roid spawns, so that aint so bad :)
Tachy	Posted - 2006.09.20 06:08:00 - [32] Imagine something goes wrong and you need a dev or hardware replacement. Do you think they'll be happy being woken up in the middle of the night? Do you think IBM keeps a full team ready, including replacement hardware, to be ready for the case when their assistance should become nessessary? How much money are you ready to pay for your subscription per month? Iceland has pretty restrictive rules about worktime and overtime. I have no idea how much emergency reaction time can be sqeezed out though. --==*-- No Thread with this ID This thread does not exist. Go back One page \| Go back to forums
franny Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.09.20 06:35:00 - [33] Originally by: Tachy Imagine something goes wrong and you need a dev or hardware replacement. Do you think they'll be happy being woken up in the middle of the night? Do you think IBM keeps a full team ready, including replacement hardware, to be ready for the case when their assistance should become nessessary? as a 3rd shifter for an IBM datacenter(US EST timezone) hardware support, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, IBM Serv(CE/SE/FE whatever you want to call them) have a 1 hr call back time, then depending on the customer they either have 24/7 onsite or ON-CALL support, it's not uncommon for some hardware problems to go 12+hrs, between waiting for the CE, then the parts(if not onsite and most of the contracts only have limited high failure items as spares), then the CE again(if not 24/7 onsite) as for the support people that depends, some are WAY to cheery at 3am(hell, we had one call us because he noticed a lot of people on SameTime at 4am and was curious), others you can't get to answer a page or call no matter what but 2am changes are fun , espically when you've got half the world on a conf call back to the downtime 11:00 GMT = 07:00 EDT, I get out of work at 07:30, about 20 minutes to drive home fine by me(and before you think i'm complex whoring, I drive my son to the school bus stop about 08:20), it just means I am not sitting around watching a clock
RaTTuS BIG	Posted - 2006.09.20 10:51:00 - [34] Right at lunch for me :-( I have suggest in the past that it should 22hr on and 1 hr off [or 24h on and 1 off] that way it would affect all zones evenly... However that has it's problems 1) the servers are in GMT Timezone and it is handy to have the staff round when they are patched / rebooted / etc. 2) it is handy to know when the DT is e.g. if you leave for a few days ... then you are not going to get caught out unexpectly ... probably other reasons also -- BIG Lottery, Deal & Sales \| Skills Showroom
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.20 10:54:00 - [35] allowe 2-3 hours for downtimes in the next 2 weeks
Trevor McDonald	Posted - 2006.09.20 11:17:00 - [36] Edited by: Trevor McDonald on 20/09/2006 11:18:14 I'm moving to Aus next year (from london) & it looks like that will be the end of my time with EVE. I am just a normal working 9-5 guy with wife & young children so the only time I get to play is from about 8pm - 11pm so if DT is starting around 9/10pm at night it would make it unplayable for me. I am sure they are other players with a similar life style to myself that are in the same situation.
Kraschla	Posted - 2006.09.20 11:18:00 - [37] Everyone complains about DT, but the Aussies have it worse, my mate is in Western australia, and DT is at 7pm-8pm, with the recent long DT's, he can't back on untill 11pm some nights... DT is fine where it is, just make sure it's only going for an hour, that way us Aussies can get SOME time in, hmmm? (I'm Eastern aus, DT is 10-11pm, means I know to sleep then )
Ediz Daxx FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.20 11:19:00 - [38] I want 40 hours of downtime every week! I need to study!
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.20 11:23:00 - [39] When playing UO, back in 1997, downtime was at 06:00 Paris time. It was pretty much the first MMORPG (Meridian was hardly one) and we could understand back then that downtime was necessary for backup and whatnot. Then came Asheron's Call and... it had no downtime at all! It was also a seamless world with no transitions anywhere on a quite gigantic map, only dungeons had portals. I've never seen since then a game with such an outstanding technical implementation btw. Then Anarchy Online which has no downtime neither, AFAIK. So, why a downtime in EVE? Because it's a gigantic database? Not sure banks, with quite nice databases too, have any downtime, have they? ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Bishman82	Posted - 2006.09.20 11:23:00 - [40] It may be inconvenient for some people in the UK but for most people, DT will be going on while they are working. By about 4-5pm any extended downtime will be over (sometimes). For me 12-1pm is perfect unless i'm on holiday like today But then i've got loads of other stuff to be doing.
Diomorph Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.20 11:28:00 - [41] Its easy only charge anyone paying in euros 23/24 of the subscription fee. As a 3 1/4 year player ive technically lost 50 days playing time due to the 1 hour DT alone over a USA player and this doesnt take into account extended DT's due to patches which inveriably happen during EU time zone. Now if CCP kindly send me a 90 day Time code key well call it even... Dio
McTaggart Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Jade Grimpkin 7pm in the evening here, gives you time to make a nutritous and delightful snack before logging back in. QFT, downtime = dinnertime.
Unfamed II FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:15:00 - [43] How about 4 DTs/day? Everyone is happy.
Zakgram Apocalyptic Raiders Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:15:00 - [44] Does anybody have a good explanation of what goes on during DT? Applying patches to the server - sure, ok... but every single day? Restocking the market? Can be done while the markets are up and running normally - just like other objects respawn in eve? What else?
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:16:00 - [45] They really should just bite the bullet and change it from 1 hour to an hour and 30 minutes, I mean, maybe if they lowered the standard maybe people wouldn't be so angry at a 10-20 minute delay every day.
D'onryu Shoqui Gallente Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:20:00 - [46] i remember when ccp claimed daily downtime wouldnt be a permanent feature
Zakgram Apocalyptic Raiders Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Gamer4liff They really should just bite the bullet and change it from 1 hour to an hour and 30 minutes, I mean, maybe if they lowered the standard maybe people wouldn't be so angry at a 10-20 minute delay every day. I don't see the reason behind downtime though. What is difficult about keeping something up 24x7 except in exceptional circumstances?
Khalian Shar	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:21:00 - [48] The only other MMORPG I have come across that needed a reboot every day was EQ2 when it was first released. I only played for the first few months and I have no idea if they still need it. When a game is brand new I can see there may be a need for a daily service. I cannot see why a game running for this long still needs one. I concede that the whole system of client - server interaction they have here is so archaic that it is obscene. Every single action requires server confirmation before it is allowed client side and must be putting a vast strain on resources. By far the most primitive system of any MMORPG I have ever encountered. 23 hours uptime is probably all the servers can take before they start falling over from exhaustion. Most people blame fleet combat lag on their graphics cards.... Sorry but you are wrong. I have no doubt some cards have issues and are so weak that they struggle with large loads. The problem is that the client graphics freeze when it has no idea what to do. High server load from fleet combat results in less frequent updates from the server to you and in this time of no data it freezes. Why ? You don't believe me ? What happens when you open up the market window? What happens when you open it up in browse ? What happens when you open it up in search ? Browse = a large freeze while all the data is coming to you. Search = a much smaller pause while you recieve much less information.(Maybe accessing different servers/databases and other such things too) Generally speaking the game freezes for a length of time. Why ? Do you really think your graphics card is having issues rendering the market window ? Pah. Complete joke. Fleet combat. Try staring at open space while in combat and suffering lag. Does it improve things ? Is your graphics card rendering anything ? Still freezing ? Sudden improvement ? The lack of ghosting and rubberbanding is also indicative of a total reliance on server authentication for every action. I am unsure as to why they do this. Hackers? Macro miners? I assume there are reasons for it. Doesn't impress me though. Ever had your active items buttons flash for much longer than they should. Your client cannot even think for itself enough to deactivate that. It is waiting for the server to tell it to stop and a lag induced lack of instruction is why it does not. The client is completely dumb. Until they give the client the ability to authorize legal actions without server approval and implement some method of synchronization the servers will be doing far more work than they need to be doing. All the extra traffic this current method needs has got to be hurting things. Yeah I know some of you will flame me. I do not understand the technical side of any part of these games and I do not pretend to. There may indeed be valid reasons for these things I see as issues. Doesn't alter the fact that lots of other games do it a lot better. Problem is that the other games are not EVE... Anyway. The above comments are why I can safely say that their setup is anything but state of the art and I am not surprised at all that it can only manage to run a day at a time.
Chequrself	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:29:00 - [49] I think that alot of people are being rather selfish in this area of debate with the mindset that so long as it doesnt bother me it isnt a problem, well that is just bullshet. There is a false arguement dotted throughout this thread that seeks to justify why dt is only done during that hour, that arguement being that that is when ccp is there, as if they arent there any other time. Yes they are there at that time but it is not the only time they are there. Surely a floating roster of dt timings, that are within the ccp working day, could be implemented so that it isnt conistantly the same group of people that is disadvantaged. Another person also argued that this is the way that it has always been done, to you my friend, I introduce the notion of progress. Things change. Once upon a time everyone thought the world was flat ... you get my point. It is easy to sit and say okay shut up whiner, when you are not seriously affected by the timing of dt. And it could be easy for me to say well everyone should cop it put it on a 23 or 25 hour rolling roster without considering other points .. but that is not going to provide an equitable solution that does not severely inconveniance those at ccp. Oh btw it is now 22:30 and tranquility is still not up ffs ... this is the Aussies and those on or around +10 gmt prime playing time yet we cant play because dt is always scheduled to be on at this time.
Zakgram Apocalyptic Raiders Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:38:00 - [50] I also wonder why some basic techniques aren't being used to improve the ability to roll things back. (disclaimer... I work for a storage vendor) There are 2 main components here. The servers and the data. You can improve things by having the servers all boot from a SAN and by keeping a single image of the servers on the SAN you only have a single thing to restore. Restoring. That brings me onto snapshot / cloning technologies. Almost all storage vendors have techniques for taking backups of 100's of TB in seconds either by a snapshot or by cloning disks efficiently. Combine the two. Before applying a change take a snapshot / clone of all the servers and databases. Fiddle... decide the fiddling broke something. Roll everything back in a few seconds. Reboot servers as if downtime hasn't happened. None of this is new. Can you imagine if google search / mail was down for an hour every day? Or yahoo mail? or your (online) bank? They all have vast arrays of servers and vast arrays of arrays. They must be doing something to avoid going down all the time...
Lars Gasp	Posted - 2006.09.20 12:41:00 - [51] I'm an Aussie I'd like to see DT rotate a bit so we all get screwed evenly not just some of us, every dam day. I must say I love all the comments by peeps who are completely unaffected by DT who say leave it alone, lol. As for it being the time when there are the least amount of players online, well golly gee the server is about to come down it's not like it takes a mental genius to expect low population at a time like that. Shift DT to another time and wow there might be a low pop around that time almost every day as well, hehe. DT every day is another pain in the ass that I say its ok to complain about, if this could be removed or extended to weekly it would see ALL of us benefit. A good thing surely? Until you have lived with DT in the middle of your main play time, you don't know what you are talking about. Don't get me started on extended DT, guys really just stop poking it ok, LOL, let it alone so we can play huh? Feel free to fix it in the middle of US prime play time though, take as long as you need by all means. Us Aussies have to suck it up every day, on the odd occasion it wouldn't hurt for others to do the same. If it HAS to be daily cause the hamster died or whatever, move it an hour each day so DT is spread around, there is a 7hour window asssuming the UBER day staff are needed on site every time, make use of it. Wasn't there a recent article from E3 about how high end the EVE tech is? I thought kewl stuff but umm maybe go buy some old stuff that can run more then 24hrs strait? yea I know its not that easy just so sad that such a great game as EVE is so badly handicaped like this.
Chequrself	Posted - 2006.09.20 13:02:00 - [52] Onya Lars dude, let the Aussie dt resistance begin
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.20 14:00:00 - [53] Look at the alternative... would you opt for 1hr/day DT, or 7h on a Saturday? What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
ArcticShadow Gallente Rome SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.20 14:53:00 - [54] Originally by: Franky B yes, aussies get it bad since it cuts right into our prime playtime or cuts it off right at the edge Are you kidding!? I would love to have it in my prime time. That way I could accually do a complex and not have the aussie players get them all. I could mine good ore, I could be online when everything is fresh and not many others are on. I would love to have the downtime 7pm instead of like 7am here. --- ArcticWolf, member of Eve since February, 2003. My Story
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.20 15:44:00 - [55] Always figured it was nice of them to hold D/T on the one hour of the day there's no one logged in.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:08:00 - [56] Originally by: Ediz Daxx I want 40 hours of downtime every week! I need to study! QFT if they double your suggested amount of hours to 80 we could sleep AND study ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Malibu Stacey Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:47:00 - [57] Edited by: Malibu Stacey on 20/09/2006 17:50:25 Edited by: Malibu Stacey on 20/09/2006 17:49:35 Originally by: Khalian Shar I concede that the whole system of client - server interaction they have here is so archaic that it is obscene. Every single action requires server confirmation before it is allowed client side and must be putting a vast strain on resources. By far the most primitive system of any MMORPG I have ever encountered. 23 hours uptime is probably all the servers can take before they start falling over from exhaustion. The lack of ghosting and rubberbanding is also indicative of a total reliance on server authentication for every action. I am unsure as to why they do this. Hackers? Macro miners? I assume there are reasons for it. Doesn't impress me though. Ever had your active items buttons flash for much longer than they should. Your client cannot even think for itself enough to deactivate that. It is waiting for the server to tell it to stop and a lag induced lack of instruction is why it does not. The client is completely dumb. Until they give the client the ability to authorize legal actions without server approval and implement some method of synchronization the servers will be doing far more work than they need to be doing. All the extra traffic this current method needs has got to be hurting things. Yeah I know some of you will flame me. I do not understand the technical side of any part of these games and I do not pretend to. There may indeed be valid reasons for these things I see as issues. Doesn't alter the fact that lots of other games do it a lot better. Problem is that the other games are not EVE... Anyway. The above comments are why I can safely say that their setup is anything but state of the art and I am not surprised at all that it can only manage to run a day at a time. Firstly if you "do not understand the technical side of any part of these games and I do not pretend to" why are you trying to lecture on the client-server interaction model? Why are you being so bold as to proclaim "their setup is anything but state of the art". "I concede that the whole system of client - server interaction they have here is so archaic that it is obscene. Every single action requires server confirmation before it is allowed client side and must be putting a vast strain on resources. By far the most primitive system of any MMORPG I have ever encountered." Archaic you say? The same client-server model which is used in practically every multiplayer game (FPS & RTS included not just MMO's) and in a huge number of business applications too (banking being the most common one) is according to you archaic. If you can design, develop & implement a better one then by all means go ahead. I expect CCP & every other software developer would pay you very large sums of money if you did. "The client is completely dumb. Until they give the client the ability to authorize legal actions without server approval and implement some method of synchronization the servers will be doing far more work than they need to be doing." There is client side prediction (the most common cause of "rubberbanding"), again if you can devise a better system go forth & make your bank balance multiply. I'd love a client with "the ability to authorize legal actions without server approval" especially if they added a basic scripting console a la the Quake engine & derivatives there of. As would the macro software writers. A macro, also known as "bots" in other games, don't just have to mine you know as there's a whole galaxy out there to automate. "Yeah I know some of you will flame me." The sky is blue, water is wet, space is cold.... Try posting with your main next time. FYI I code in C++ for my day job & I work on multiplayer game mods (Source Engine mostly) in between my Eve time so I might just have some idea of this whole concept. --- Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Betonela Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.09.20 17:56:00 - [58] Originally by: digital0verdose Originally by: Sharkbait it wouldn't make any sence to have it in the middle of the night when everyone is sleeping. during the day there is a full team on hand incase of any problems. Most companies would appeal to their larger base and have employees come in at night to take care of the issues. if i my job tell me to come at nigth i will leave that job and i can say anyone make that doo u ganna leave your woman on nigth couse is some problems there no way man no way join on New Movement of Market Traders
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2006.09.20 18:52:00 - [59] Quote: Does anybody have a good explanation of what goes on during DT? Its like that episode of the Twilight Zone. All the little space elves come out and make new roids to mine. Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Caedicus Minmatar InterSec	Posted - 2006.09.20 19:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Malibu Stacey Edited by: Malibu Stacey on 20/09/2006 17:50:25 Edited by: Malibu Stacey on 20/09/2006 17:49:35 Originally by: Khalian Shar Whining about the client-server model Defense of client-server model I think there is a point that is to be made about the sluggishness of the EVE client. I can't help but think that every time I move a few items from a [generic container] to [generic container], I feel the client waiting for those SQL statements to finish processing on the server. I don't think it's as much as the client-server "model" as much as the EVE client does a poor job (read as: not as good as other MMO's) at HIDING the fact that there is all this data transferring/processing going on in the background. As to why it this is so, I have no idea. But it does kind of kill the immersion if you start thinking about it too much. However, CCP is always trying to optimize things. If this is something that can be improved, I'm sure CCP will address it. But it might be one of those things that can't be improved unless an unreasonable amount of resources were spent on the issue. I hope it's not

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