| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
SephiriotH
REUNI0N
Red Alliance
   |
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:11:00 -
[61]
2 Dark Shikari
10-20 times more ? get yourself back to earth :}
about 77s - I'm personally hating the plexes, pvp 4tw ! On my opinion - all the outposts nearby were builded to farm the plexes , not to "prevent someone" from entering it .
more on-topic :
1. it could be nice to have a MINIMAL limit of ships entering the plex . for egz - taking a 10/10 should be at least corporate event , so to enter it - a gang of hmm... 15 ships jumping in 30 seconds limit should be necessary for EVERY gate . cloaking devices should be disabled in plex as well .
Remember : With a bad word and good torpedo you are always hurting more then with a bad word alone. |
Biglipz
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:11:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Burzhuj
Originally by: d026
Quote:
Remove complexes. Problems solved.
i think not, the money made by exploiting the complexes is still in the game and causes (if the number provided in the other tread are more or less accurate) a huge imbalance.
Dont worry pal, all those trillions it just a myth. As was said before, average income from 8/10, including loot is about 2 bil per 23h (in 10/10 average 2-3 times more).
So you claim the average loot per day from a 10/10 complex is 4-6 billion isk? thats EXACTLY what you just said. And its a lie, like a lot of what you are saying here.
|
Godar Marak
Amarr
Return Of Red Dawn
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:13:00 -
[63]
move the plexes to empire
|
ahf 42
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:18:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Burzhuj
Originally by: d026
Quote:
Remove complexes. Problems solved.
i think not, the money made by exploiting the complexes is still in the game and causes (if the number provided in the other tread are more or less accurate) a huge imbalance.
Dont worry pal, all those trillions it just a myth. As was said before, average income from 8/10, including loot is about 2 bil per 23h (in 10/10 average 2-3 times more).
average for non bugged and nonexploited 8/10's, yep, but this is a matter of the BUGGED and EXPLOITED 8/10's, which can generate the isk volume mentioned over the last few months if not since RMR.
Sorry, but "some" players word can not be trusted due to past experience in the game and their rampet use of every exploit "they" could find to ensure nobody found out this was happening.
Some constructive players have shown factual examples, and the "math adds up" approach, while "others" are trying to derail the threads and use any excuse "they" can as to why they did it for so long.
If you can offer the same factual information as the constructive players have, you are welcome to do so. (we won't hold our breath though).
|
Biglipz
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:19:00 -
[65]
Originally by: SephiriotH
2 Dark Shikari
10-20 times more ? get yourself back to earth :}
about 77s - I'm personally hating the plexes, pvp 4tw ! On my opinion - all the outposts nearby were builded to farm the plexes , not to "prevent someone" from entering it .
more on-topic :
1. it could be nice to have a MINIMAL limit of ships entering the plex . for egz - taking a 10/10 should be at least corporate event , so to enter it - a gang of hmm... 15 ships jumping in 30 seconds limit should be necessary for EVERY gate . cloaking devices should be disabled in plex as well .
Every change you are asking for, from removing outposts from complex areas, from removing cloaking, to limiting ships to 10-15 is all changes that would benefit RA. i find this quite hilarious. You should be more worried about the health of your accounts from all your exploiting, than getting complexes changed to suit you.
|
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Biglipz
Edited by: Biglipz on 24/09/2006 17:32:53
Edited by: Biglipz on 24/09/2006 17:32:09
Originally by: Great Spylord
The Great Spylord's Wisdom shines clear.
What is the problem of complex's?
1. Invincibility of those inside, impossible to probe
2. A fraction of 1% of the eve population get to run them
3. Bugged plex's
4. Favor's Timezone wars
The Great Spylord Solution is as palatable as he is wise
Make all over seeres respawn ever hour for all plex's, make all plex's require no keyholders. Also remove all effects
The Wisdom of the Great Spylord inspires us all. This will mean anybody can raid a plex pretty much anytime, and will actually give a point to doing so. Removing the keyholders will prevent the complex becoming invincible, and the sheer number of quality loot that will be flooded into the market will devalue the trillions that the exploiters have stores in loot value alone.
The Great Spylord Rules all.
The serpentis 10/10 complex does not require keys, unless its the last level. Make all complexes like this, and randomise the respawn time, aswell as stop it respawning through downtime, problem solved.
Making all complexes respawn within 45 minutes would completely kill EVE, the inflation would be huge, a 10/10 alone would generate 10 billion isk from overseer effects alone.
Actually - He has a point - He asked for the removal of all keyholders, effects and for all complex's to be able to respawn every hour or so.
He said he wanted effects to be removed - so I see no inflation risk, actually the reverse!
This means one thing - Massive Devaluation of complex loot due to more people running it. Also indrectly, massive devaluation of overpriced t2 loot, as more complex loot will be in supply. It will also lead to increasing numbers of complex loot being used in pvp.
More importantly, any loot that is stored will become devalued, thus if someone has 5 trillion in Mach BPC's and Gist modules, a oversupply will slash his asset value.
So in fact, insted of inflaition, his idea actually causes deflation due to lower value of loot, both direct and indirect! And I guess it means everyone who wants to run a plex gets the chance to do so if they are willing to fight for it. And his idea removed the DT plex runs that we are all aware of.
I have to say, Great Spylord really hit the nail on the head with this one!
---
Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour
FREE |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:26:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Biglipz
Originally by: Istaklain
Edited by: Istaklain on 24/09/2006 16:50:38
I find it hard to believe a bug like this has managed to stick around this long. Especially when we are told that complexes are watched very carefully.
This bug has persisted for at least 4 months through many hot fixes, and one major patch and still nothing is done.
The issue is taken to the forums not once, but twice and still nothing is being done.
This entire situation is beyond pathetic.
Quote:
Increase spawning rate of keyholders, so everybody with enough dedication will be able to enter complex and challenge those guys, who entered this plex earlier. Problem solved
That solves nothing. That only allows more people to try and take advantage of the bug.
People have been whining about the inflation caused by lvl4 missions which don't hold a candle to the this bug.
According to RA this bug has existed for over a year. This would explain the huge GDP raise, and mass inflation thats occured over the past 1 year. Its bad.
Do explain how introducing more faction modules into the market increases GDP? Or puts more ISK into the markte.
----------------------------------------
Friends Forever
|
Biglipz
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:31:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Biglipz on 24/09/2006 19:35:36
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Biglipz
Originally by: Istaklain
Edited by: Istaklain on 24/09/2006 16:50:38
I find it hard to believe a bug like this has managed to stick around this long. Especially when we are told that complexes are watched very carefully.
This bug has persisted for at least 4 months through many hot fixes, and one major patch and still nothing is done.
The issue is taken to the forums not once, but twice and still nothing is being done.
This entire situation is beyond pathetic.
Quote:
Increase spawning rate of keyholders, so everybody with enough dedication will be able to enter complex and challenge those guys, who entered this plex earlier. Problem solved
That solves nothing. That only allows more people to try and take advantage of the bug.
People have been whining about the inflation caused by lvl4 missions which don't hold a candle to the this bug.
According to RA this bug has existed for over a year. This would explain the huge GDP raise, and mass inflation thats occured over the past 1 year. Its bad.
Do explain how introducing more faction modules into the market increases GDP? Or puts more ISK into the markte.
It's not the faction modules, its the 200+ 18th tier overseer effects worth 44m each being generated by the combined farming of 8 seperate 8/10 angel complexes per day. Thats a lot of isk being added into the game. Thats equal to more than 10 10/10 complexes worth of overseer effects being farmed and sold daily, at 2 runs a day per 10/10 complex.
|
Aertuun
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:55:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Aertuun on 24/09/2006 19:56:07
Some concerns in response to the original post:
1) People who have been exploiting this bug have been buying accounts. Accounts, and ships, and modules. They've been using these accounts and ships and modules to make yet more money. With the amount they have been making, they could buy lots of accounts. And ships. And modules. Basically, whatever they want. And make even more money on the basis of the money they gained while exploiting.
2) The bug was reported on at least one other occasion, months ago, and nothing was done.
3) The exploiting has gone on for a long period (partly due to 2).
4) People cheating and exploiting the game, particularly in manners such as this, undermines confidence in the entire game system. If people cheat and get a free ride, or obfuscate the issue enough to lessen the consequences, other people will start doing so as well. Either that, or lose confidence in the game as a whole.
5) People seem to have a lack of confidence in CCP or the GMs to take any action on these issues, for whatever reasons. Either that, or believe whatever action is taken will be dodged or avoided somehow. I haven't been playing that long, so don't know where this lack of confidence has come from.
6) The exploitation seems to be on such a huge scale that it has game-breaking potential unless tackled effectively.
|
SephiriotH
REUNI0N
Red Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 19:56:00 -
[70]
*snip* - removed content refering to deleted post. -Ivan K
more proposals :
1. why not to make a plexes more or less like COSMOS plexes ? a labyrinth . that could add A LOT of excitment and difficulties as well.
Remember : With a bad word and good torpedo you are always hurting more then with a bad word alone. |
|
|
Deja Thoris
Revelations Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 20:04:00 -
[71]
I think all I'd like now is a response from CCP (or an expected time to wind up whatever investigation is ongoing)
I'm tired of the blathering of both sides and the page long quotes just so someone can say "ORLY!!". This thread would be a page long without all the uneccasary quotes.
Originally by: Clementina
If you bug report it, you get ignored.
If you post about it on the forums, you get banned.
If you exploit it, you get rich.
|
Darkenral
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 20:05:00 -
[72]
My initial reaction was BANS FOR THE SPLOITERS !!! Then after giving it some thought I guess CCP is really ok with this stuff and its part of EVE.
Other situations where a small % of players accumulate game breaking isk:
HAC BPO Owners
Certain T2 Mod BPO Owners
Recent large scams (Although those were quite a bit smaller in scale as I understand the math)
Whats more broken a bunch of guys farming a plex or some guy sitting in a station making insane amounts of isk virtually by doing nothing. And since all the BPO's in question are seeded there is no way you can hurt him - his corp - or compete.
0 Risk - Huge rewards. Same as farming the plex imo.
In keeping with the whole "the world isnt fair philosophy of EVE" I say let them keep their isk and move on .... hopefully ccp will fix the plexes or not.
Add these plex farmers to the small % of ppl that have won EVE.
Dark
|
|
Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 20:31:00 -
[73]
Thread cleaned again. There's repeat offenders, and I will start dishing out warnings to those involved if this persists. Don't turn this into a blame-game, the issue on debate is not HOW, WHO or WHY this has been done. That means, stop posting HOW it has been done, WHO has done what, and WHY they have done it. It's not constructive, and it's bound to turn this thread into a flamefest, something which isn't really benefiting anyone.
And last but not least, if you think anybody is trolling the thread, mail the moderators, don't answer it, as that usually just fuels the flames. Thank you.
eve-crc.net | forum rules |[email protected]
He's a mdoerator you know - Serathu |
|
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 20:37:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Darkenral
Edited by: Darkenral on 24/09/2006 20:20:39
My initial reaction was BANS FOR THE SPLOITERS !!! Then after giving it some thought I guess CCP is really ok with this stuff and its part of EVE.
Other situations where a small % of players accumulate game breaking isk:
HAC BPO Owners
Certain T2 Mod BPO Owners
Recent large scams (Although those were quite a bit smaller in scale as I understand the math)
Whats more broken a bunch of guys farming a plex or some guy sitting in a station making insane amounts of isk virtually by doing nothing. And since all the BPO's in question are seeded there is no way you can hurt him - his corp - or compete.
0 Risk - Huge rewards. Same as farming the plex imo.
In keeping with the whole "the world isnt fair philosophy of EVE" I say let them keep their isk and move on .... hopefully ccp will fix the plexes or not.
Add these plex farmers to the small % of ppl that have won EVE.
Dark
Edit: Nice sig Deja
Darken, there is a difference. None of the 3 things you describe cause inflation as such. They are just methods of shifting ISK around in vast quantities, and all by the free will of those involved (though not always with the realization of what can/will happen). Any exploitation in regards to BPOs or scams is of players cheating on players. In this case with the complexes we are talking about exploiting the game. Big difference.
|
Kyrenn 'Rehnamm
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 20:49:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov
Ok. I will say this once, and once only. Stop going into specifics about who and how. It's not constructive, and it will only degenerate the thread into the previous one, which was locked. Therefore, there will be no witch-hunt demanding the bans of all players of specific alliances or corporations. If anybody trolls, don't answer, mail us instead. Thread cleaned - if you have any objections, feel free to mail us at [email protected], don't post it here.
Ok Ivan, then I ask you, whats the purpose of this thread then?? Everyone and their brother knows WHO it was abusing this bug. WHats the purpose of talking about an incident if you can't even include FACTS in the conversation. Sounds like to me you dont want the facts known.
You can't have any legitimate conversation without stating facts. Only by stating conjecture do you have a thread that is not constructive.
And their is no witchhunt. Your game rules clearly state that abusing any unintended game function for personal profit is a bannable offense. Well guess what, thats what the whole eve community repying to this thread and the other locked one, is demanding. You uphold your own rules. Period.
|
Deadzone
Caldari
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 20:58:00 -
[76]
Sorry, Kyrenne is my char. Dont know why it keeps defaulting to her.
But also...not only was the other thread locked, it was completely deleted. Nice job of trying to sweep it under the rug CCP/ISD.
Complete and totaly disappointment in that action.
Vice-Admiral
Military Division
Phoenix Propulsion Laboratories |
Virtuozzo
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 20:59:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Deadzone
Sorry, Kyrenne is my char. Dont know why it keeps defaulting to her.
But also...not only was the other thread locked, it was completely deleted. Nice job of trying to sweep it under the rug CCP/ISD.
Complete and totaly disappointment in that action.
Just use eve-search.com and search for the ThreadID ...
Virtuozzo
RECRUITMENT TEASERS. Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" |
Biglipz
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:03:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Biglipz on 24/09/2006 21:04:30
The fact that the thread was deleted completely does make you wonder why is was removed.
|
Kyrenn 'Rehnamm
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:10:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Kyrenn ''Rehnamm on 24/09/2006 21:13:35
Originally by: Virtuozzo
Originally by: Deadzone
Sorry, Kyrenne is my char. Dont know why it keeps defaulting to her.
But also...not only was the other thread locked, it was completely deleted. Nice job of trying to sweep it under the rug CCP/ISD.
Complete and totaly disappointment in that action.
Just use eve-search.com and search for the ThreadID ...
I looked all the way back to the 21st and I know the thread was active up until sometime yesterday. I looked 3 times. Now if I somehown missed it then I must appologize profetically. But I don't think I did.
When threads are locked they just go down the list. Well, I didn't see the thread which had over 600 responses and over 20k looks if I'm not mistaken.
EDIT- just looked again and its gone...GONE..
|
Xenofur
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:14:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Xenofur on 24/09/2006 21:14:05
they didn't delete it: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=398164
my guess, as i have seen other game companies do that: they moved the thread to an invisible forum, cleaned it, and moved it back.
|
|
|
Deadzone
Caldari
Phoenix Propulsion Labs
Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:23:00 -
[81]
Yes, the link works. I don't know wht the the issue is but if you look through the pages ( i just went back to the 19th) its not there. Meaning anyone without the link won't be able to see it.
That to me means they are trying to hide it.
Vice-Admiral
Military Division
Phoenix Propulsion Laboratories |
Lady Vorax
Amarr
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:27:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Lady Vorax on 24/09/2006 21:30:24
Edited by: Lady Vorax on 24/09/2006 21:28:40
1 question, CCP knows about this, the know who, and whats actualle beeing done about it. I have scrolled around the other topic but havent foudn anything about it. (or i am just blind)
ps: by beeign doen i mean agianst the offenders and the exploit itself.
thx in advance
edit: becuase whenever i see somethign liek this on the forum it says its beeing worked on, but we dotn know what happend to the exploiters, might work as a warning.
|
Zafriel
TunDraGon
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 21:59:00 -
[83]
Why not make it so that once you finish a complex you cant do it again?
Makes sense to have it this way, once the installation has been destroyed it is gone for that player
I ♥ Tenacha Khan |
|
Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 22:09:00 -
[84]
About the thread that was locked, it's still there, and it's even linked to in my OP in this thread - here it is. The problem with it "disappearing" is a forum bug which happens when you lock a previously stickied thread, as far as I can tell.
As for the intentions of this thread, it is a place to post your concerns, and provide comments and feedback on the issue, which several have done, providing construcitve comments on possible ways the complexes could work. And again, neither CCP nor ISD wants the facts in any way hidden or swept under the rug - we (ISD) are just enforcing the forum rules. If you feel that our way of handling this is wrong, you can mail us and tell us, and we'll be happy to discuss it with you. As to what will happen with people who've taken advantage of the spawn rate, that's for the GMs to decide and the forums are not the place to provide such facts.
eve-crc.net | forum rules |[email protected]
He's a mdoerator you know - Serathu |
|
Kyrenn 'Rehnamm
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 22:39:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Kyrenn ''Rehnamm on 24/09/2006 22:41:25
Originally by: Ivan Kirilenkov
About the thread that was locked, it's still there, and it's even linked to in my OP in this thread - here it is. The problem with it "disappearing" is a forum bug which happens when you lock a previously stickied thread, as far as I can tell.
As for the intentions of this thread, it is a place to post your concerns, and provide comments and feedback on the issue, which several have done, providing construcitve comments on possible ways the complexes could work. And again, neither CCP nor ISD wants the facts in any way hidden or swept under the rug - we (ISD) are just enforcing the forum rules. If you feel that our way of handling this is wrong, you can mail us and tell us, and we'll be happy to discuss it with you. As to what will happen with people who've taken advantage of the spawn rate, that's for the GMs to decide and the forums are not the place to provide such facts.
I didn't know there was a forum bug that made posts 'disappear'. I will then appologize to you Ivan and to CCP for the comment of "hiding" the post. It sure did look that way without knowing bout that bug
Deadzone
EDIT- #^$%#%&@& damn thing reverting back to this char again!!! ARG! Anyway to make it post with my main without it going Never had this problem before...
|
|
Eldo Davip
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 22:47:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kyrenn 'Rehnamm
EDIT- #^$%#%&@& damn thing reverting back to this char again!!! ARG! Anyway to make it post with my main without it going Never had this problem before...
Click on the left handside Settings link and then select Deadzone and check the option which says "Default Character"
|
|
Darkenral
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 22:50:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Darkenral on 24/09/2006 22:51:55
Originally by: Malachon Draco
Originally by: Darkenral
Edited by: Darkenral on 24/09/2006 20:20:39
My initial reaction was BANS FOR THE SPLOITERS !!! Then after giving it some thought I guess CCP is really ok with this stuff and its part of EVE.
Other situations where a small % of players accumulate game breaking isk:
HAC BPO Owners
Certain T2 Mod BPO Owners
Recent large scams (Although those were quite a bit smaller in scale as I understand the math)
Whats more broken a bunch of guys farming a plex or some guy sitting in a station making insane amounts of isk virtually by doing nothing. And since all the BPO's in question are seeded there is no way you can hurt him - his corp - or compete.
0 Risk - Huge rewards. Same as farming the plex imo.
In keeping with the whole "the world isnt fair philosophy of EVE" I say let them keep their isk and move on .... hopefully ccp will fix the plexes or not.
Add these plex farmers to the small % of ppl that have won EVE.
Dark
Edit: Nice sig Deja
Darken, there is a difference. None of the 3 things you describe cause inflation as such. They are just methods of shifting ISK around in vast quantities, and all by the free will of those involved (though not always with the realization of what can/will happen). Any exploitation in regards to BPOs or scams is of players cheating on players. In this case with the complexes we are talking about exploiting the game. Big difference.
I certainly agree there are some differences, however I think the there are similarities as well CCP knows its an issue, it continues. The bulk of the player base is @ a huge disadvantage vs a miniscule % of the playerbase. I fail to see the practical difference if your outside the club.
Much like the Goon's portrait thing (w/is - has been used by other alliances albeit perhaps a less sophisticated version) People are competative by nature and will use whatever means they can to gain advantage - the list of borderline exploits is know by most forum posters so I wont recount them all.
CCP's seeming inability to ban a couple hundred accounts and make a sticky in forums and news saying "This has come to our attention, it is an exploit, we have banned xxxx # of accounts please do not pursue this if you value your account"
The last wholescale ban I can remember in a mmorpg was when Mythic banned radar users they gave a couple of warnings then BAM like 400 accounts as I recall ... was the best thing they ever did for PVP in DAOC.
It would seem CCP is largely ok w/people pouring concrete in the sandbox to build the biggest castle so to speak.
This along w/the server issues of late (althought the server is "better" atm) makes you question if EVE has grown too much too fast and is somewhat out of control ... to the detriment of most players.
Future plans and expansions are good, fixing the game now is better.
Dark
|
DropZone 187
|
Posted - 2006.09.24 23:31:00 -
[88]
Actually, The Great Spylord's proposal is right on the button. It will actually lead to deflation in value of the items being exploited, which will only hurt those who bought or sold them previously. This has happened before to large MUDs where the extent of an exploit was too far to remediate. Go Spylord...
Seeing as the accused groups are now posting in this thread (or at least reverted to their mains), it must be obvious that no action is going to be taken against them. I hope CCP is going to come out with some sort of statement of whether they are going to change the plexes, keep them the same, or what/if is going to happen to the players involved. The best that the community could hope for is that the plexes are left the same, accurate details on per day isk generation published and the fireworks of the subsequent resulting groups going to fight over them should be quite entertaining.
Alternatively, CCP could remove all NPCs (plexes, rats) from 0.0 which would make it quite interesting.
|
Afonso Henriques
Minmatar
Low Grade Ore
|
Posted - 2006.09.25 00:07:00 -
[89]
The fact that this stickied and heavily moderated makes me somewhat happy. I hope this means that CCP is concerned and not going to let this pass. Also appreciating the heavy moderation because that last thread turned lame by page 19 thanks to some people trolling and others taking the bait (repeadly).
1:Complexes need fixing
2:Bug Reporting needs much improvment
3:Exploiters and everyone they laundered isk to and hid mods with need a permaban
I'm hoping that tomorrow being moday will mean an official responce from CCP. Even if they are continuing to investigate and/or track isk, some information from you would go a long way.
|
Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
|
Posted - 2006.09.25 00:08:00 -
[90]
You guys almost got a rather upset email from me Ivan, since the thread was missing.
Glad to see it was just replaced with a proper sticky.
Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus
I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour  - Immy
Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
For 50, you can have my goat:P- Tirg |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |