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Sergeant Sassy Pants
Big Time Adventure of Navigation
0
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Posted - 2015.01.26 07:53:19 -
[1] - Quote
I've read a recent CSM debate on Ishtar being too strong and stuff.
It's true that drones have no counter except for a smart bomb, so yeah. I agree we need some balancing here.
Thing is, these all could solve easily if you make missiles hit AOE damage at impact.
Think of all the possibilities, like if you hit a single hobgoblins or garde, all 5 pack of them gets damage.
This patch will even make "Missile Doctrine" viable in fleet warfare.
No more sticking together when you see a missile fleet, heh :P
We already got smart bomb and bomb, so what are we waiting with that "explosion radius" factor missiles have?
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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
78
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Posted - 2015.01.26 07:55:06 -
[2] - Quote
So a bit of friendly fire then? because your enemies drones will probably be targeting your friends |
Sergeant Sassy Pants
Big Time Adventure of Navigation
0
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Posted - 2015.01.26 07:58:48 -
[3] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:So a bit of friendly fire then? because your enemies drones will probably be targeting your friends
That and highsec PvE are things to consider, but I think this is a better idea than current ones.
I thought people would come up with something like giving "fuel meter" to drone or something, but that damaging drones in bay thing is plain ridiculous. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
223
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Posted - 2015.01.26 08:03:47 -
[4] - Quote
Missiles don't really need a buff in some sort of new way. Some of them could use some number tweaks, but overall they work well.
Drone's don't really need buffing or nerfing. Putting sentries on cruisers and carriers is really the issue. Make sentries BS and possibly BC weapons and the problem is fixed. |
Arla Sarain
258
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Posted - 2015.01.26 08:33:01 -
[5] - Quote
Because then you'd need to buff turrets, which are subject to range and tracking to deal damage in comparison to drones (which have near perfect application) and missiles. |
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad
Circle-Of-Two
72
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Posted - 2015.01.26 09:17:14 -
[6] - Quote
Sergeant Sassy Pants wrote:I've read a recent CSM debate on Ishtar being too strong and stuff.
It's true that drones have no counter except for a smart bomb, so yeah. I agree we need some balancing here.
Thing is, these all could solve easily if you make missiles hit AOE damage at impact.
Think of all the possibilities, like if you hit a single hobgoblins or garde, all 5 pack of them gets damage.
This patch will even make "Missile Doctrine" viable in fleet warfare. (No more sticking together when you see a missile fleet!)
We already got AOE bombs with us, so what are we waiting with that "explosion radius" factor missiles have?
When there would be missles which deal an AOE damage i think they would be called bombs.
So you basically want make every missleboat a bomber. Kind of like the idea but it-¦s way to OP.
I don-¦t feel like the ishtar is that op after all i mean there are counter to this doctrin.
-1 |
Helios Panala
16
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Posted - 2015.01.26 09:23:03 -
[7] - Quote
AoE missiles would be fun, but only as a lower damage ammo option.
They'd also probably need to fix defender missiles or create defender drones if AoE missiles became a thing. |
Sergeant Sassy Pants
Big Time Adventure of Navigation
0
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Posted - 2015.01.26 09:26:42 -
[8] - Quote
I know this could be hella OP by a glimpse.
but honestly, missile needs a revamp just like turret did before.
After turret skill tree revamp, missile tree is now not only inferior in skill selection, but have way too much stuffs not being used like defender missiles.
Why not catch two rabbits at the same time to make missile a counter to drone boats? |
Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
148
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Posted - 2015.01.26 10:32:18 -
[9] - Quote
Make defender missiles also attack the drones which attack the ship.
I'm a genius, what can I say? |
Orange Something
Shadow Garrison
6
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Posted - 2015.01.26 12:14:30 -
[10] - Quote
Sergeant Sassy Pants wrote:Thing is, these all could solve easily if you make missiles hit AOE damage at impact.
That would not solve everything, that would just make missiles awful for close combat. There is a reason bomber fleets don't launch bombs in close range. AOE splash damage would not be a buff, but a reason to never use close range missiles, effectively making half of all missiles not helpful while making long range missiles a little too strong.
Sergeant Sassy Pants wrote:I've read a recent CSM debate on Ishtar being too strong and stuff.
The logic there isn't that drones are OP, it's that sentry drones are supposedly supposed to be battleship weapons, but the Ishtar can just field a full flight of them like it's nobody's business. Drones are fine where they are, and the Ishtar is being reviewed because it is a little to strong with it's deeps and range when it has sentries deployed. Missiles need help as well, but I don't think making them AOE would be a solution. |
Mornak
Exotic Dancers Union
SONS of BANE
37
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Posted - 2015.01.26 12:43:49 -
[11] - Quote
AOE doesn't work for PVE in Highsec... I would sit into a cloaky ship, scan down mission runners and approach the rats until i take AOE damage. Then comes Concord and i leech on the KM with a TP or so. Believe me, that would not just be me, lots and lots of people would do this. It's just too easy to get an shiny KM this way.... And the tears, the tasty, tasty tears.
The other thing is scale-ability. Imagine 100+ ships doing AOE-dmg. Either every single missile must be made very weak, or it will just be OP in bigger fleets. That's a balancing nightmare that will not improve the situation from what it's now.
If you want to nerf drones (which i don't think is necessary, just nerf sentries like Paynus Maiassus pointed out) than please don't do it via missiles, the only thing this will lead to is turret users complaining that missiles are OP because missile-doctrines become the new standard. This just shifts the problem, it doesn't solve anything.
a better way would be via a specialized defender-missile launcher. Even most turret-boats have utility-highs and a launcher hardpoint (or maybe the spezialized version doesn't need a hardpoint at all?).
Afaik defender missiles are completely uselsess atm. If you want to "properly defend" your fleet than you need some dedicated defender-ships (the "spezial launcher" like a specialized EWAR ship)... or just fit 2-3 of them in the fleet and avoid some of the damage (like EWAR without bonus). Plus it should work against drones and missiles. because if you want to revamp missiles into becoming more like turrets, than i'd very much like something like a missile-TD as well.
But again, i don't think we really need this at all. just fix the sentries. I just always liked the idea of defender-missiles.
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Barrogh Habalu
Forever Winter
Absolute Zero.
852
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Posted - 2015.01.26 12:45:25 -
[12] - Quote
Mr Doctor wrote:Make defender missiles also attack the drones which attack the ship.
I'm a genius, what can I say?
Or you could load normal missiles instead of defenders and just shoot drones.
I mean, I don't think it will solve anything unless you make defenders really effective at that task...
Just pondering. |
Sergeant Sassy Pants
Big Time Adventure of Navigation
0
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Posted - 2015.01.26 16:29:15 -
[13] - Quote
Mornak wrote:AOE doesn't work for PVE in Highsec... I would sit into a cloaky ship, scan down mission runners and approach the rats until i take AOE damage. Then comes Concord and i leech on the KM with a TP or so. Believe me, that would not just be me, lots and lots of people would do this. It's just too easy to get an shiny KM this way.... And the tears, the tasty, tasty tears.
The other thing is scale-ability. Imagine 100+ ships doing AOE-dmg. Either every single missile must be made very weak, or it will just be OP in bigger fleets. That's a balancing nightmare that will not improve the situation from what it's now.
If you want to nerf drones (which i don't think is necessary, just nerf sentries like Paynus Maiassus pointed out) than please don't do it via missiles, the only thing this will lead to is turret users complaining that missiles are OP because missile-doctrines become the new standard. This just shifts the problem, it doesn't solve anything.
a better way would be via a specialized defender-missile launcher. Even most turret-boats have utility-highs and a launcher hardpoint (or maybe the spezialized version doesn't need a hardpoint at all?).
Afaik defender missiles are completely uselsess atm. If you want to "properly defend" your fleet than you need some dedicated defender-ships (the "spezial launcher" like a specialized EWAR ship)... or just fit 2-3 of them in the fleet and avoid some of the damage (like EWAR without bonus). Plus it should work against drones and missiles. because if you want to revamp missiles into becoming more like turrets, than i'd very much like something like a missile-TD as well.
But again, i don't think we really need this at all. just fix the sentries. I just always liked the idea of defender-missiles.
You have a valid point.
Making defender missile a counter to drone is much easier, low-risk way to balance things out I guess.
This might also give missile boats a new role in fleet combat... like that smartbomb firewall thing from a long time ago :P |
Lugh Crow-Slave
592
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Posted - 2015.01.26 16:33:03 -
[14] - Quote
we had this once and it was removed for good reason
most missiles are in a good spot its just some don't fit the current meta
drones are also in a good place its just a few hulls that use them make them a bit stronger than maybe they should be
Fuel block colors
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Sergeant Sassy Pants
Big Time Adventure of Navigation
0
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Posted - 2015.01.26 16:42:35 -
[15] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:we had this once and it was removed for good reason
most missiles are in a good spot its just some don't fit the current meta
drones are also in a good place its just a few hulls that use them make them a bit stronger than maybe they should be
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM9-WS-D3.txt
According to this, either drone re-deployment delay, drone band nerf, or AOE/drone specific counter measures are being consiered by CCP fozzie.
My missile suggestion was to support the latter AOE one, as it could work great as a counter measure to drone. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1087
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Posted - 2015.01.26 19:00:18 -
[16] - Quote
AOE has 1 glaring flaw ... it only works in 0.0 same as smartbombs .. so the problem isn't really solved is it?
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Mackenzie Nolen
XYJAX
30
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Posted - 2015.01.26 23:12:11 -
[17] - Quote
Sergeant Sassy Pants wrote:drone re-deployment delay
fingers crossed that this is the one they go with.
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Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
44
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Posted - 2015.01.27 02:28:53 -
[18] - Quote
Ishtar should have drone bay of 250m3, and no bonuses to sentries. Restore/increase the bonus to heavies. It's bloody well got the same drone capacity and bandwidth of a Domi, which makes no sense at all. I'd hammer it more, but I'm biased due to my lineage |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
820
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Posted - 2015.01.27 04:23:09 -
[19] - Quote
I would prefer if defender missiles worked and did so with two scripts you can load into them. Either auto hitting the nearest missiles or drones.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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elitatwo
Eve Minions
Poopstain Removal Team
547
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Posted - 2015.01.27 05:14:42 -
[20] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Because then you'd need to buff turrets, which are subject to range and tracking to deal damage in comparison to drones (which have near perfect application) and missiles.
And missile ships need to have two rapiers with them at all times to make them work..
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
14685
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Posted - 2015.01.27 05:50:43 -
[21] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:Arla Sarain wrote:Because then you'd need to buff turrets, which are subject to range and tracking to deal damage in comparison to drones (which have near perfect application) and missiles. And missile ships need to have two rapiers with them at all times to make them work..
Clearly you have never been on the wrong side of a competent torp Golem.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
104
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Posted - 2015.01.28 03:14:21 -
[22] - Quote
-1 to the OP.
Almost useless against anything but sentry drones as you would be damaging you own fleet mates, and possibly even yourself.
I am still seriously confused on the whole Ishtar "problem" anyway. What it all comes down to is everyone hates sentry drones and not the Ishtar specifically and yet sentry drones are extremely easy to kill with the proper fleet set up. Since they are perfectly still in space they are literally like shooting fish in a barrel and they vaporize when hit by any of the larger artillery and cruise missiles can wreck havoc on a flight of sentries almost as quickly. Many friends of mine are in low sec corps and they use exactly these tactics to counter sentries from Ishtar and Dominix alike and they are extremely successful with it. So I am given cause to wonder, is there really a problem with the Ishtar/Domi and sentry drones, or only a problem caused by those that will not adapt and overcome.
Been said before and will say it again. Remove the aggressive mode and the ability to assign drones to aid another ship and your drone problems become extinct without adversely affecting the use of drones, Ishtar and Domi in the PvE environment.
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To mare
Advanced Technology
386
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Posted - 2015.01.28 03:19:04 -
[23] - Quote
people always cry because missile and AoE would be bad for high sec, just introduce a faction (or T2) variant of every missile with some splash damge so you get the choice, after all missile where used to do splash damage back in the days. |
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
249
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:16:31 -
[24] - Quote
Sergeant Sassy Pants wrote:I've read a recent CSM debate on Ishtar being too strong and stuff.
It's true that drones have no counter except for a smart bomb, so yeah. I agree we need some balancing here.
Thing is, these all could solve easily if you make missiles hit AOE damage at impact.
Think of all the possibilities, like if you hit a single hobgoblins or garde, all 5 pack of them gets damage.
This patch will even make "Missile Doctrine" viable in fleet warfare. (No more sticking together when you see a missile fleet!)
We already got AOE bombs with us, so what are we waiting with that "explosion radius" factor missiles have?
Have you ever been subject to AOE? It's pretty brutal if there's more than a handful of people being hit by it. More AOE is an invitation for an even lower threshold for TIDI, and it's not something that we need more of. Pipe bombs are pretty easy to avoid if you've prepared for the fight ahead but if you do land in one, or show up to a fight where a party is trying to firewall, or smartbomb during a large fleet, the TIDI is unbearable.
Also, ishtars aren't the end game of eve, they're just versatile for medium fleets to use and they're a forgiving doctrine; they're not the best for everything, they're just pretty good in a lot of places without being over specialized. Many null residents have drone skills already trained for ratting so they're easy for players to adapt to. For large gangs, tengus, napocs, prots, TFIs and eagles are superior for holding ground in a fight, and will win if ishtars decide to commit. Zealots can wreck them with dictor support and a good FC. Ishtars are very vulnerable to bombs, not because they're good for destroying drones, but you can force ishtars off the field with bombers. They've only got 3 flights without dropping depots and when they're off field an FC should massacre the sentries that are left behind. Almost any cruiser doctrine can force ishtars to abandon drones by simply warping right on top of them and free firing.
If anything, blame the devs for a cap use bonus on the zealot (I really hoped that they'd take the right approach and bake it in to the hull) and 3 mids or anemic powergrid on the muninn- which would be devastating if they could mount a decent tank.
HM, LM, and RLM, doctrines are perfectly viable, and rockets and HAMs are perfectly good for small gang and solo stuff. HMs could probably use a slight DPS buff, and torps would benefit greatly from a slight tweak so they can perform well without the aid of bonused painters. Other than that, all missiles should really have are analogues to tracking computers and enhancers(and yes, every ship type benefits from webs and TPs already.) Sure, they're not vulnerable to TDs, but they've got delayed damage and firewalling against them. |
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