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Ficti0n
FireTech
Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.26 17:52:00 -
[1]
That some alliances are becoming too big, powerful and more importantly RICH to conquer now?
I mean some complexes are churing out aournd 6 billion a day for some alliances. This is a LOT of isk, even for 0.0 alliances.
Alliances are already building massive I-win Buttons (ie Titans). Do you think in the rest of eve's life alliances like this will ever disintergrate/be overthrown?
I think we all know what type of alliances im refering to. Alliances such as BoB and ASCN.
This is not meant to be a flame post, and hopefully wont become one, I just want to see other peoples opinions on this.
Ficti0n
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar
Stormriders
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:02:00 -
[2]
Take a look at the titan stats, its nothing more than floating large POS.
There is no I-Win button in Eve, the titan will make some things simpler but it will not turn ASCN into a solo empire, i think the hundreds of BS's and other ships are what do that :P
Rather than point out the problem come up with a solution before posting it will help you and other understand the problem.
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sableye
principle of motion
R i s e
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:03:00 -
[3]
reasons some of these alliances are so powerful is there good leadership that works there arses off only way I see most fo them falling apart is a full war between two of them or there leadership leaves and gets bored and theres no one else to step up to the plate but this has always been the case anyway if you ask me.
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Ficti0n
FireTech
Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:04:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Ryas Nia
Rather than point out the problem come up with a solution before posting it will help you and other understand the problem.
Well I wouldnt have started a debate if I knew both sides of the argument or a "solution" as you put it.
Then whole point in this thread is to understand the problem better.
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Jobie Thickburger
Gallente
Intergalactic Mining
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:05:00 -
[5]
Its defanatly something I've been worring about. BOB, ASCN, LV... All three of these have me worried, But in the end, they too will fall.
Sure, they are to big to be out right conqured, but that will change. Shoot, its about like the world is right now...
The politics of the area look a lot like the world today.
BOB = China Big, Powerful, and just waiting on the right time to pounce
ASCN = USA, Big, Rich, and friends with a lot of people
The Coalalition = EU, Smaller powers, but combined to be a fairly powerful force.
If ya look, the big wars atm are the ones going between the smaller powers, In my realm, I see things like the U'K war and the recent CVA war. You also have the Goonies up in the north. All this kinda falls into the way the middle east is today, smaller groups fighting with eachother.
Eventually, Someone will tick someone else off, and All heck will break loose.
For example, didn't the Fountain alliance have the same reputation before BoB formed and whiped em out? How about IRON and -G-?
Even the Roman empire fell after so long.
His Planetship, CEO, IM
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Sir JoJo
Minmatar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:13:00 -
[6]
we had alliances like that since eve went live and many have fallen off diffrents reason, (CA, SA and FA for examples FA used to be the OMG the so rich alliance)
just because theres new and big ship dont make a diffrents,
ISK and big ship aint equal i win
*snip* Don't be nasty [email protected] to discuss mod - Cathath
i am not nasty |
dabster
Minmatar
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:13:00 -
[7]
No empire lasts forever.
/chuckles evuhly
___________________________
Brutors Rule!
My Eve-vids; Click. |
CYVOK
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:25:00 -
[8]
Edited by: CYVOK on 26/09/2006 18:31:07
Originally by: Sir JoJo
we had alliances like that since eve went live and many have fallen off diffrents reason, (CA, SA and FA for examples FA used to be the OMG the so rich alliance)
just because theres new and big ship dont make a diffrents,
ISK and big ship aint equal i win
I have to agree. I have been playing EvE since it went live and been a part of several now dead Alliances. The Alliances we have now are more evenly matched then they ever were in the past. They may be few very "powerful" Alliances but they are well balanced.
As for ISK, it is a great way to build an Alliance but it wont keep you alive. Xetic was by far the richest Alliance in the history of EvE and it was utterly crushed by internal strife, short sighted leadership and a massive bandwaggon attack force.
Fact is, if they wanted to, the EvE community could decimate ASCN, LV or BoB if they truly wanted to make that their goal.
As for complexes... Franky, it would not bother me a bit if they all dissappeared from EvE. Or better yet were changed in some way so that they would cater to group events instead of being used as cash trees.
In many other MMO's I have seen the "uber Loot" made untradeable, the guy that loots it, is stuck with it forever. Just doing that for much of the Complex loot would change the way complexes are used today.
Yes ASCN takes advantage of our complexes, we fought hard to gain control of them and we do use the ISK for most of our bigger projects. Thats the differance. We build outposts and ships. We don't go ebay ISK or fit 5 guys with 2B iSK officer mods from empire. I might also add that 10/10 complexes are NOT the most profitable in EvE, 6/10's and 8/10's seem to hold that record. 10/10's are very unpredictiable and rearly drop loot worth more then 350M a day. You may think 350M is alot, but divide that between 5000 members or 1 outpost and its nothing.
Team work and having unified goals within an Alliance is what makes it strong. To their Credit BoB have this more or less perfected though ASCN is close behind.
Everyone with access to complexes in 0.0 could be just as "rich" as ASCN or BoB if they thought a bit more about the future of their Alliance rather then how much ISK they have in their personal wallet or fitting 20B worth of mods on a battleship they never undock.
-CYVOK-
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Omeega
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:37:00 -
[9]
7 replys and the "EBAY" mark appeared.
In my humble opinion having a titan is not a win button.
Let's take ASCN per example - they are mainly good at production (what I mean is that they weren't formed for the love of doing Player Versus Player). So I think it's just like giving a gun to a child.
With a bit of luck he'll kill somebody otherwise, he might hurt himself or just use it as a stick to rub his back.
Now when we talk about some BOB members well yeah, titan is a threat. This time the pistol fell in professional's hands.
But still, I still think determination is what a successfull alliance/corp/member needs to suceed into EVE - not only his wallet or his toys.
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Major Stormer
Caldari
Demon Womb
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:37:00 -
[10]
Look at Red, Fountain, Phonex (sp) Alliances.
I dont need to say more do i? congrats to red anyway ;)
--------------------------
AHH the Stupid forum DELETED(!) all my mod chat in my sig when i added this image :( |
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fugazii
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:49:00 -
[11]
well, people said the same thing about the CA back in the day.
while the tides and times have changed, the same fact that has always been true about alliances still remains so, alliances are only as powerful as thier members are happy. outside forces have rarely actually beat an alliance, discontent within the ranks is what usually leads to a downfall.
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Zhaine
B e l l u m
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:51:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CYVOK
I have to agree. I have been playing EvE since it went live and been a part of several now dead Alliances. The Alliances we have now are more evenly matched then they ever were in the past. They may be few very "powerful" Alliances but they are well balanced.
As for ISK, it is a great way to build an Alliance but it wont keep you alive. Xetic was by far the richest Alliance in the history of EvE and it was utterly crushed by internal strife, short sighted leadership and a massive bandwaggon attack force.
Fact is, if they wanted to, the EvE community could decimate ASCN, LV or BoB if they truly wanted to make that their goal.
As for complexes... Franky, it would not bother me a bit if they all dissappeared from EvE. Or better yet were changed in some way so that they would cater to group events instead of being used as cash trees.
In many other MMO's I have seen the "uber Loot" made untradeable, the guy that loots it, is stuck with it forever. Just doing that for much of the Complex loot would change the way complexes are used today.
Yes ASCN takes advantage of our complexes, we fought hard to gain control of them and we do use the ISK for most of our bigger projects. Thats the differance. We build outposts and ships. We don't go ebay ISK or fit 5 guys with 2B iSK officer mods from empire. I might also add that 10/10 complexes are NOT the most profitable in EvE, 6/10's and 8/10's seem to hold that record. 10/10's are very unpredictiable and rearly drop loot worth more then 350M a day. You may think 350M is alot, but divide that between 5000 members or 1 outpost and its nothing.
Team work and having unified goals within an Alliance is what makes it strong. To their Credit BoB have this more or less perfected though ASCN is close behind.
Everyone with access to complexes in 0.0 could be just as "rich" as ASCN or BoB if they thought a bit more about the future of their Alliance rather then how much ISK they have in their personal wallet or fitting 20B worth of mods on a battleship they never undock.
-CYVOK-
Nice post. . .
And to the OP, having both been a member of a large alliance and (now) being an "insignificant" onlooker, I don't think the current alliances are a problem to Eve. I find the current power structures fascinating and intruiging. And it's all about leadership and organisation as well as isk and numbers (just look at KOS, huge and significanly funded but, well, crap). No one will last forever. . . someone will mess up, or something will change, or somebody will get bored and attack big-scale. Change is the only constant.
- - - - - - - - - -
Quote:
I don't even want a ship, ships are for carebears. Give me a fish bowl for my head (to keep space out) and smear me with lard, then armed with a toasting fork-
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Raid
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:54:00 -
[13]
Internal conflicts are what will kill every major alliance in the game. It will happen... always does... maybe BoB is less likely to have this happen given the relativly few number of corps in their alliance. Most likely would take a massive clash of ego's to break that up... The more corps you bring on the more freeloaders you get.. the more freeloaders you get the greater the changes of internal conlfict... thus is the cycle of life.
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Zimi Vlasic
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:54:00 -
[14]
Empires crumble.
History proves this to be 100% correct.
Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer |
Skooney
Gallente
Universal Agencies
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: CYVOK
Edited by: CYVOK on 26/09/2006 18:31:07
Originally by: Sir JoJo
we had alliances like that since eve went live and many have fallen off diffrents reason, (CA, SA and FA for examples FA used to be the OMG the so rich alliance)
just because theres new and big ship dont make a diffrents,
ISK and big ship aint equal i win
I have to agree. I have been playing EvE since it went live and been a part of several now dead Alliances. The Alliances we have now are more evenly matched then they ever were in the past. They may be few very "powerful" Alliances but they are well balanced.
As for ISK, it is a great way to build an Alliance but it wont keep you alive. Xetic was by far the richest Alliance in the history of EvE and it was utterly crushed by internal strife, short sighted leadership and a massive bandwaggon attack force.
Fact is, if they wanted to, the EvE community could decimate ASCN, LV or BoB if they truly wanted to make that their goal.
As for complexes... Franky, it would not bother me a bit if they all dissappeared from EvE. Or better yet were changed in some way so that they would cater to group events instead of being used as cash trees.
In many other MMO's I have seen the "uber Loot" made untradeable, the guy that loots it, is stuck with it forever. Just doing that for much of the Complex loot would change the way complexes are used today.
Yes ASCN takes advantage of our complexes, we fought hard to gain control of them and we do use the ISK for most of our bigger projects. Thats the differance. We build outposts and ships. We don't go ebay ISK or fit 5 guys with 2B iSK officer mods from empire. I might also add that 10/10 complexes are NOT the most profitable in EvE, 6/10's and 8/10's seem to hold that record. 10/10's are very unpredictiable and rearly drop loot worth more then 350M a day. You may think 350M is alot, but divide that between 5000 members or 1 outpost and its nothing.
Team work and having unified goals within an Alliance is what makes it strong. To their Credit BoB have this more or less perfected though ASCN is close behind.
Everyone with access to complexes in 0.0 could be just as "rich" as ASCN or BoB if they thought a bit more about the future of their Alliance rather then how much ISK they have in their personal wallet or fitting 20B worth of mods on a battleship they never undock.
-CYVOK-
CYVOK - That has to be one of the best posts I have read.
You touch on many key points. The main one being, the success of ASCN and BoB is Team Work.
The success of your Titan is not the "i-win" button but the proof that an Alliance working together as a team can accomplish anything in EVE.
Well done.
Respectfully.
Skooney.
Universal Agencies
www.rlelectric.ca/ua.htm
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Bratwurst0r
Cataclysm Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.26 18:56:00 -
[16]
why should we worry? if a dedicated group attacks one of the great powers...also a Titan will not safe them.
Spawning POS will 
Originally by: Aquila Lightwielder
I'm sorry CCP you are #200 in queue to use my credit card, please wait
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Kunming
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.26 19:00:00 -
[17]
Alliances dont rise and fall on the battlefield, their destiny is determined by the competence of their leaders and moral integrity of its members. The "Roman Empire" style alliance will easily beat the "Mongolian Horde" style alliance, cause of the supperiority of organisation and logistics, but on the other hand its also more vulnerable to internal intrigues and moral failures. Both RL and EVE history has shown us that no alliance is here to stay forever.
I think what you are experiencing is a moral failure atm, its a basic instinctual human reaction to prevent you from wasting resources on something that your subconsiousness has calculated as unworthy by making you think its impossible to achieve. You can discipline your self to use these in your favour, but I'm not going to go into pychological warfare here.. actually I'll be kind enough to give you a tip: If they have everything and you have nothing, what do you have to lose?
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Apothos
Loot
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Posted - 2006.09.26 19:33:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Apothos on 26/09/2006 19:34:21
I think the politics in EvE are fascinating, just like RL we have now gone from many small alliances to a few big ones, and then a power vaccum forms when the big ones go down and the cycle starts all over again.
Edit: If alliances get to big, I'm confident that there will be people who will do some fun backstabbing, and stir up some fun **** for all the alliance pvpers
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Moghydin
Confederation of Red Moon
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.26 19:46:00 -
[19]
Big alliances are powerfull and rich not without a reason. The reason is a lot of work and dedication from the leadership of the alliance and a lot of work and dedication from all alliance members towards the same goal. So, it's quite natural that if so much effort was invested into building a successfull alliance, same amount of effort and dedication (or even more) should be invested into trying to take one down.
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Grimpak
Gallente
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.26 19:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Apothos
Edited by: Apothos on 26/09/2006 19:34:21
I think the politics in EvE are fascinating, just like RL we have now gone from many small alliances to a few big ones, and then a power vaccum forms when the big ones go down and the cycle starts all over again.
Edit: If alliances get to big, I'm confident that there will be people who will do some fun backstabbing, and stir up some fun **** for all the alliance pvpers
cycle of the alliances in eve is:
alliance borns -> dies or develops -> if survives, get's bigger -> grows -> aquires new friends and enemies -> gets involved in wars -> cataclysmic event happens that shatters/kills the alliance -> if shattered, several small alliances pop up in place of the old one -> cycle restarts.
-------
Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Masta Killa
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.09.26 20:07:00 -
[21]
Many or few, titans or frigs,
they're all nubs 
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"It's like, we show up and UDIE." |
Mistress Suffering
Einherjar Rising
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2006.09.26 21:09:00 -
[22]
Actually with good leadership, alliances can last many many years. Mostly it just depends on whether someone with the skills and interest is available when a time for transition occurs.
EVE simply isn't going to be around long enough that its strongest alliances are doomed to failure. They could easily outlast it.
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Stockarian
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.26 21:15:00 -
[23]
Hmm, omeega, out of all the posts in this thread yours is the only one (so far) with a retort about the ebay comment from Cyvok, I wonder why?
The Titan is a nice tool for the defense of our space, nothing more...it certainly isn't an I win button.
BOB will have their Titan, if they don't already.
We all want whatever there is to offer in-game, this doesn't mean anyone is too big or too powerful, we're just getting what the Devs put out there just like everyone else. No harm, no foul.
I don't think anyone should be upset over such an accomplishment, just look at it like "dang, they built that, so can we."
Athelas Loraiel > "This isn't a fleet, we're only the appetizer."
Cheers, Stock
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Deja Thoris
Revelations Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.26 21:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Omeega
Edited by: Omeega on 26/09/2006 18:38:42
7 replys and the "EBAY" mark appeared. CY- I'd like you to remember that if you have any doubts about someone Ebaying you can simply mail a mod and he'll get that sorted.
A mod is an unpaid volunteer. It's hardly within their remit to do anything about that kind of thing.
On topic. Some nice posts were made a week or so about "the little person" becoming increasingly irrelevant in EvE.
No doubt its a wonderful group achievement building a titan but it saddens me that the blob mentality is overtaking the game.
Originally by: Clementina
If you bug report it, you get ignored.
If you post about it on the forums, you get banned.
If you exploit it, you get rich.
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Omeega
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.09.26 21:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Stockarian
Hmm, omeega, out of all the posts in this thread yours is the only one (so far) with a retort about the ebay comment from Cyvok, I wonder why?
Because everytime we blow things up we get a free "ebay-tag", and yes, I wonder why too?
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Omeega
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.09.26 21:32:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
A mod is an unpaid volunteer. It's hardly within their remit to do anything about that kind of thing.
Sorry meant a GM.
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.09.26 22:30:00 -
[27]
Edited by: mishkof on 26/09/2006 22:32:08
With the servers the way they are I agree with the OP. Territroy is hard to take right now do to lagg alone. I know if I owned a dread I would think hard about whether I wanted to expose it to a 50/50 chance of dying along with the node. All the defender has to do is launch fighters and defending the POS has been complete.
With the nerfing of missions and empire in general the only real way for an entity to gain the financial ability to take territory in 0.0 is to already have it.
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Trinity Faetal
Gallente
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.09.26 22:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Masta Killa
Many or few, titans or frigs,
they're all nubs
what he says
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Dracolich
North Star Networks
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Posted - 2006.09.26 22:58:00 -
[29]
Why worry... big empires wants to fight other big empires. Hopefully in the process hire their favorite merc corp. Its all about having fun, its just done on different levels. If they become too powerful, and none will fight them, maybe they will become bored, and leave for smaller more flexible "empires"/corps, then new empires evolve, only to dissolve at some point - and if not so, well, some must occupy 0.0 space, and why not let it be in the hands of those with vision.
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Dracolich
North Star Networks
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Posted - 2006.09.26 23:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Masta Killa
Many or few, titans or frigs,
they're all nubs
Think this is the most funny thing I have heard thus far - both from Masta Killa and eve-o.
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Karneh Vorous
Reaver Inc
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Posted - 2006.09.26 23:09:00 -
[31]
I think the real tradegy is that 0.0 now seems to only favor the Mega-Alliance. "Small" groups of 50-100 pilots can't expect to have a fighting chance at a 10/10 complex or any fruitful resources. I can remember running 10/10 complexes in the past but now it's a joke. If I show up to a complex it's camped by the established alliance and if I happen to be in that alliance the complex is already well farmed. It's a shame that they don't move from system to system making folks work to get them. I wish Ore did the same actually.
When we only had 8000 people online, 0.0 was still acheivable by a small alliance. Now that we have 30,000 people, I think the Mega-Alliances have to fold from the inside versus an attack from an outside party. Suck out all the good Ore/Complexes from ASCN and BOB space and move it to Syndicate for about 2 months. Now that would be fun!!! Moving resources around only punishes the lazy player.
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Dearwin
Gallente
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2006.09.26 23:09:00 -
[32]
Remember one year ago? Things had seem settled, the major alliances entrenched and napped. Then look at six months ago relative to a year ago. Over half of the major powers suddenly didnt exist or were a shadow of their old selves with no power to speak of (or just sort of reformed).
Like someone said in a thread much like this a week ago, let the nights get cold and the tensions rise. Im sure something exciting will happen, certainly did last winter, and that didnt have Kali.
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DeathGrip
Amarr
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.26 23:28:00 -
[33]
Edited by: DeathGrip on 26/09/2006 23:29:47
Originally by: mishkof
Edited by: mishkof on 26/09/2006 22:32:08
With the servers the way they are I agree with the OP. Territroy is hard to take right now do to lagg alone. I know if I owned a dread I would think hard about whether I wanted to expose it to a 50/50 chance of dying along with the node. All the defender has to do is launch fighters and defending the POS has been complete.
Fighters are not the win button VS dreads. A decent fitted dread can tank almost 100 fighters and the POS long as there is a few other dreads tanking the POS as well.
Good Post Cyvok. Not sure I would have brought up the Ebay thing myself though.
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c0rn1
Seraphin Technologies
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.26 23:37:00 -
[34]
Originally by: CYVOK
Yes ASCN takes advantage of our complexes, we fought hard to gain control of them and we do use the ISK for most of our bigger projects. Thats the differance. We build outposts and ships. We don't go ebay ISK or fit 5 guys with 2B iSK officer mods from empire. I might also add that 10/10 complexes are NOT the most profitable in EvE, 6/10's and 8/10's seem to hold that record. 10/10's are very unpredictiable and rearly drop loot worth more then 350M a day. You may think 350M is alot, but divide that between 5000 members or 1 outpost and its nothing.
Sorry, Cyvok, but I have to disagree to the point of the 10/10 complexes.
An Angel 10/10 complex has 5 stages. you get a 18th tier at the first stage, a 19th tier at 2nd. in the third stage u get 2y20th tier of the overseer and the docked mammoth and in the 4th stage you get 2x 21th tier of the overseer and the mega under frantic repair.
In the 5th stage you get a 22th tier and a random faction loot drop or a mach bpc. due to the fact that the complex spawns thrice a day you have a CERTAIN loot of 3x500M per day if u do the last respawn an hour before downtime as well. otherwise a 2x500M per day only in overseer plus factional loot.
regards
x x x x x x x x x x x x x x
-V- Diplomat
-V- High Council Member
Life's a waste of time ... |
Evelyn Exe
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.26 23:45:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ficti0n
That some alliances are becoming too big, powerful and more importantly RICH to conquer now?
I would ask why people are so keen to see alliances fail?
To my mind alliances do some of the most interesting things in the game. Without alliances you would get no-one investing in building outposts, building titans, motherships etc. as no-one could secure the space needed to do so.
Where would the drama and politics be without the alliances?
Hi Ficti0n btw 
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Maria Ravenwind
Gallente
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.09.27 00:23:00 -
[36]
This whole massive alliance part of the game is a direction that CCP have tried to move EVE towards. Look at factional warfare. Thats just going to broaden the possibilities. And with these new harvestable gas clouds that are required for the new combat boosters, Alliances will fight over those too. It's even in the new blog.
In my opinion, I think these alliances make EVE what it is. No where else do you see these kinds of dynamics in a game. Sure, theres balancing issues, but imagine the amount of information that they are trying to manage. It's obscene! As long as Empire is not too dramatically affected by the Alliances and their wars, it's all okay.
I hate my Exclamation mark!
I Am No Alt. |
DigitalCommunist
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.27 01:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mistress Suffering
Actually with good leadership, alliances can last many many years. Mostly it just depends on whether someone with the skills and interest is available when a time for transition occurs.
EVE simply isn't going to be around long enough that its strongest alliances are doomed to failure. They could easily outlast it.
I like this post the most.
Alliances will always rise and fall, but now there are tools and goals. Forming an alliance in the old days was one of basic mutual defense and nothing more. Several people showed that it could be done for offense as well.
And the people in charge of the top four most successful alliances ingame have three years worth of experience behind them. D2 has ex-PA and ex-XETIC people in charge. BoB has ex-NORAD, ex-FA in charge. LV is ex-CA. ASCN is ex-XETIC. So you can pretty much say they've seen the traps and are carefully trying to steer clear.
You're better off doing something about it, than trying to live for the day when ASCN dies (or whoever).
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.09.27 01:23:00 -
[38]
I think we'll ahve to wait until CYVOK or Molle get bored with EvE and hang it up before either of them crumble from the inside, unless they just flat out get bored. And it will be tough for ASCN to get bored since they enjoy building stuff so much. Targets may be hard to find sometimes, but asteroids and factories are always there.
FREEE is Recruiting |
ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.27 05:40:00 -
[39]
I'm sure Cyvok or Molle would both disagree with that comment.
THose two characters are strong leaders, but the reality is, in alliances the size of BoB and ACSN the leadership is still part of a team. Ships, regions, outposts, titans complexes etc etc mean nothing without good people. We have a ceo team of 6 people who set a direction and all of them are integral to the success of BoB. We have directors in our corps who are the day to day go to guys/gals and the alliance would stall without them. And we have a great group of guys who "get it done" when asked.
BoB wouldn't work without all of those elements clicking. I am not familiar with ACSN internally, however I am willing to bet isk that the same can be said for them.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.09.27 05:48:00 -
[40]
Edited by: mishkof on 27/09/2006 05:53:31
Originally by: DeathGrip
Fighters are not the win button VS dreads. A decent fitted dread can tank almost 100 fighters and the POS long as there is a few other dreads tanking the POS as well.
Good Post Cyvok. Not sure I would have brought up the Ebay thing myself though.
I referencing the fact that when they crash the node they are........ I said nothing of combat abilities. There was large amounts of evidence that site the releasing of lots of fighters as the reason the nodes crashed. Including the GM's themselves. It is quite clear to me what happens to dreads attacking a POS when the node crashes.
Of course I am just speaking from experience in 9UY recently. This happened on many occasions. In fact IMO that is why there was no clear cut winner and it ended in the way it did. If you can reference any battles of that magnitude after the Dragon patch that refute this I will certainly take that into consideration with regards to my opinion on the matter.
The stalemate stated above is IMO why large chunks of territory changing hands isnt feasable at this point. IE stagnation, and the rich getting richer.
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Wild Rho
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 07:46:00 -
[41]
What we are seeing right now is the evolution of alliances into somthing approaching a proper Empire. I always felt the early days of watching alliances club each other over the head was a learning period for many people to find out what worked and WHO worked.
It was only going to be a matter of time before a group of people finally got it right and now we are starting to see the next stage.
Granted these superpowers are pretty much impossible to shift by any of the smaller alliances these days (mainly due to the difference in manpower and logistics), however the other superpowers still pose a threat and internal issues cannot be underestimated.
It's already been shown several times over the course of Eves 0.0 history that internal difficulties can cause an alliance to collapse far faster than any external threat (the cause of which is largely irrelevent in the end).
Nothing lasts forever, especially in Eve where huge changes can happen overnight.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
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Erynion
StarHunt
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Posted - 2006.09.27 07:56:00 -
[42]
"That some alliances are becoming too big, powerful and more importantly RICH to conquer now? " - Why conquer when U can join ?
All those little ( 50..100 ) player corporations and alliances can be joined by a great leader. And through his/hers teammates leading them new BIG alliance can be born.
It would take a lot of effort and convincing corps to forgive and forget some grudges for grater cause but it is managable.
ISK farming can be done many ways. 10/10 complexes or not. ISK is not the issue of forming a great alliance. Problem is little corp's CEO's egos. But anything is negotiatable.
And in the end there are those who do not want to be part of big politics. They have too little time in RL to play eve anyway and don't want to sacrifice it for ISK farming for someone else. Or patroling.
Those corps will be there for ever and the good part is - they usually don't whine.
To the topic.
I don't think alliances can be too big or powerful. As long as CCP makes it so that
player alliance can never be threat to the empire ( for carebares).
Big alliances are rich - but they can not conquer everything. There is not enough players online to hold their ground.
Lot of ISK means they can invest into new toys before others. Using them takes good and experienced players and those are lot harder to find than ISK.
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FOR SALE: Parachute. Used once. Never opend. Little stained. Eve-mail for details. |
Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.09.27 16:08:00 -
[43]
Alliances whilst often seemingly invulnerable and unassailable to the onlooker, are inherently subject to the vagaries of the human beings that create and run them.
Every alliance is only as strong as its weakest link and that is the human infrastructure that props them up.
It only takes one catalysing event to initiate a domino effect that could be the cause for an alliance failing.
That doesn't mean that the powerful alliances *will* fall, but at the same time there is every chance that something could happen which could bring the most powerful entity to its knees.
Thats why its interesting IMO to keep an eye on alliances and watch out for tell tale signs that all is not well, though often these signs are imperceptable even to the alliance itself, and only identifiable with the benefit of hindsight.
Nobody can say with absolute certainty that this or that alliance will be still going strong 2 months down the line. If they do, they are lying.
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Assur
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.27 17:05:00 -
[44]
All I have to say is
Curse alliance.
At one point one of the most powerfull alliance in game.
Held multiple regions and fought effectively an onslaught of many hostiles attacking them.
They held out a long time but as we all know Curse Alliance is no more due to various reasons.
Many large empires meet their fate and history has a tendency to repeat itself.
One of the reasons many empires fall is leadership.
Since its a game people get bored of it and leave.
If leadership leaves and the new leadership is not up to the challenge it means the end of the alliance. It's as easy as that.
My second example is the roman empire.
Extremely powerful for a long time but conflict within in combination with outside agressors sealed its fate.
I guess what I'm saying is.
Sit back and enjoy the show because everything will inevitably come to an end.
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XoPhyte
Out Siders
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.27 17:15:00 -
[45]
Great read (no smacking yet which is nice).
I think large alliances such as BOB, ASCN and LV bring another dimension to the game which would not otherwise exist. It has the feeling like the cold war all over again though in Eve. The politics, the constant building of resources for those "what if" scenarios etc. You see this with the Titan. Yeah we got the titan done first, but we know several others are right behind us. The same could be said with nuclear weapons in rl.
No alliance could withstand the onslaught of all the other players, so I don't think that any one alliance is to powerful. And every alliance relies on every player in game. We all have our trade routes in empire for low end minerals, we all trade with other alliances, even enemies, for items such as reactions or ore needed for the production of T2 equipment. CCP made the game where you cannot be 100% self sufficient in only a few regions, so they force us to work (even if unknowingly) with our enemies and everybody else in Eve. So in my mind there is no such thing as an insignificant player.
A full onslaught is not the only way to take down an alliance. Internal strife is almost always the most threatening enemy of all.
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.09.27 17:25:00 -
[46]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
I'm sure Cyvok or Molle would both disagree with that comment.
THose two characters are strong leaders, but the reality is, in alliances the size of BoB and ACSN the leadership is still part of a team. Ships, regions, outposts, titans complexes etc etc mean nothing without good people. We have a ceo team of 6 people who set a direction and all of them are integral to the success of BoB. We have directors in our corps who are the day to day go to guys/gals and the alliance would stall without them. And we have a great group of guys who "get it done" when asked.
BoB wouldn't work without all of those elements clicking. I am not familiar with ACSN internally, however I am willing to bet isk that the same can be said for them.
I wasn't implying that they would crumble if one of them quit EvE, more that it would have to happen before there was even a possibility of it.
FREEE is Recruiting |
Lunarra
Paradox v2.0
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2006.09.27 17:55:00 -
[47]
Indeed NO empire live forever.
Any alliances that grow to fast or too big will colapse on itself at a point in time.
The bigger you get, the more people you have, the more chances people will have their own agendas or will simply desagree.
I hate comparing EvE to RL put history shows that empires never last by the simply fact they are made by individuals and EvE empires are also made by individuals and on top of that without the real life bounderies.
So yeah those big guys might be there for a while, but not forever.
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Skooney
Gallente
Universal Agencies
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:11:00 -
[48]
The one thing I like about the "superpowers" is their ability to change the dynamic of the game. They can add stability to regions, they can change the balance of power, and who else was going to create a Titan?
They offer up, and have the ability to explore all options and avenues that EVE has to offer.
Also as one of the other people posted, they are creating a HUGE ecconomy that every one regardless of Alliance, Corporation or Age in game can acces and/or contribute to, even if you are un aware of it.
Now lets see your Titan BoB. 
Universal Agencies
www.rlelectric.ca/ua.htm
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Idaeus
Gallente
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:43:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Evelyn Exe
I would ask why people are so keen to see alliances fail?
Personally, I think it's to make things interesting again. Chaos good. Order bad. Quote:
To my mind alliances do some of the most interesting things in the game.
I'd hardly call POS warfare interesting. Sorry, but after the first time the novelty goes bye-bye. (And that was only a small POS) Quote:
Without alliances you would get no-one investing in building outposts, building titans, motherships etc. as no-one could secure the space needed to do so.
Perhaps. But outposts, titans and motherships are self-serving and bring nothing to the rest of the game populance. The game wouldn't suffer in the least if those things were not constructed. And securing space for their own private use does what for the game now, other than stifle the growth of younger corporations and alliances? Quote:
Where would the drama and politics be without the alliances?
It was there before there were alliances. The advent of alliances simply condensed the drama.
Don't read too much into this. As a whole, I like alliances. MY biggest issue is that everything is too damn calm. I know Kali is coming and all, but I'd love to see the entire alliance map showing only "contested" and nothing else.
+IOI? |
Constantinee
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:58:00 -
[50]
Not all alliances will last forever. One day bob will die one day ascn will die. Its all a matter of time. but as long as they are still here...lets keep shooting they are not stopping us from doing that.
Want a Cheap sig? |
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Assur
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:52:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Constantinee
Not all alliances will last forever. One day bob will die one day ascn will die. Its all a matter of time. but as long as they are still here...lets keep shooting they are not stopping us from doing that.
Concord does... I think concord is an evil alliance and should be crushed.
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Idaeus
Gallente
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:56:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Assur
Originally by: Constantinee
Not all alliances will last forever. One day bob will die one day ascn will die. Its all a matter of time. but as long as they are still here...lets keep shooting they are not stopping us from doing that.
Concord does... I think concord is an evil alliance and should be crushed.
CONCORD uses logon traps and other exploits.
+IOI? |
Omeega
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:48:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Idaeus
Originally by: Assur
Originally by: Constantinee
Not all alliances will last forever. One day bob will die one day ascn will die. Its all a matter of time. but as long as they are still here...lets keep shooting they are not stopping us from doing that.
Concord does... I think concord is an evil alliance and should be crushed.
CONCORD uses logon traps and other exploits.
qft.
they had titans before everyone! "how could they jump all their pwing ships alltogether at the same place?!"
Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3...
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Erynion
StarHunt
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:54:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Erynion on 27/09/2006 21:54:27
Originally by: Idaeus
Quote:
Without alliances you would get no-one investing in building outposts, building titans, motherships etc. as no-one could secure the space needed to do so.
Perhaps. But outposts, titans and motherships are self-serving and bring nothing to the rest of the game populance. The game wouldn't suffer in the least if those things were not constructed. And securing space for their own private use does what for the game now, other than stifle the growth of younger corporations and alliances?
Game itself would not suffer. But if players can achieve all goals as solo players it gets boring really quickly.
This is why titans/outposts etx are important. You have a long time goal to work to.
A great thing to do. And you have to work for it. With Other players. That makes this game #1.
And hey - if things are too calm - create some havoc. Snoop out BoB's ( example ) trade routes. Hit them with some ingame friends fast and turn away to attack in other route.
And so on. And most imporantly try to blame ACSN for it ;)
Or something similar.
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FOR SALE: Parachute. Used once. Never opend. Little stained. Eve-mail for details. |
Idaeus
Gallente
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2006.09.28 03:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Erynion
And hey - if things are too calm - create some havoc. Snoop out BoB's ( example ) trade routes. Hit them with some ingame friends fast and turn away to attack in other route.
Did that. BoB kinda hates when you shoot their command ships. I never saw local fill so fast :/
+IOI? |
analev godder
The Syndicate Inc
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.28 03:55:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Omeega
Edited by: Omeega on 26/09/2006 18:38:42
In my humble opinion having a titan is not a win button.
Let's take ASCN per example - they are mainly good at production (what I mean is that they weren't formed for the love of doing Player Versus Player). So I think it's just like giving a gun to a child.
With a bit of luck he'll kill somebody otherwise, he might hurt himself or just use it as a stick to rub his back.
Now when we talk about some BOB members well yeah, titan is a threat. This time the pistol fell in professional's hands.
But still, I still think determination is what a successfull alliance/corp/member needs to suceed into EVE - not only his wallet or his toys.
Valid points you make, I find myself suprised in agreeing with you.
A titan is not a I-Win button its only a new tool to achieve goals. It's bigger than what we know today but just as vulnerable to destruction.
The fact that ASCN and BOB are both strong and powerfull alliances but yet so different only proves that the sandbox CCP created is one that matches lots off different gaming styles. It only shows that those 2 alliances are determined to accomplish their respective goals no matter what.
The downfall of every powerhouse is internal struggle. Some events may accelerate the downfall but will never be the cause. So it will happen with BoB, ASCN, LV, D2 and all future powers.
The alledged power,wallet and toys are a direct result of dedication from top to bottom, not the cause from it.
hell never tought i'd agree with you.
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NeoTech
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Posted - 2006.09.28 06:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Masta Killa
Many or few, titans or frigs,
they're all nubs
crawl back to your safespot
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Garia666
Amarr
adeptus gattacus
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.09.28 07:31:00 -
[58]
I have been here for a long time now
And i can say all good things come to an end.
i have seen many very good corp`s alliances die off.
this will alaways be the case and other alliances will rise.
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Erynion
StarHunt
The UnAssociated
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Posted - 2006.09.28 07:33:00 -
[59]
Originally by: analev godder
The downfall of every powerhouse is internal struggle. Some events may accelerate the downfall but will never be the cause. So it will happen with BoB, ASCN, LV, D2 and all future powers.
True. And one of those events can be social engineering. Psychological games. Not harassing but merly suggesting that things could be run otherwise. Joining one of their corps and spreading the word that current leaders are not the best ones. This has to be done smart and it takes time but it will work.
And it would be good to have some unoffical friends backing up your words.
Example : You say that freigthers are not protected enough - and your friends strike hard and fast somewhere.
You get my idea.
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FOR SALE: Parachute. Used once. Never opend. Little stained. Eve-mail for details. |
Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.28 10:00:00 -
[60]
Well the coming period will deffo be intresting for all the alliances , peace has lasted for quite some time and eveyrone is itchy trigger finger and now new toys are available it is only a matter of time and a spark that a huge all our war that will start and will be even more epic than the GNW.
"There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2006.09.28 11:09:00 -
[61]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 28/09/2006 11:11:01
Unless some serious changes are made to the sovereignty system and the isk is prevented from devaluing further the big alliances will be around forever.
Pos are borked (too cheap, too quick and easy to deploy, ridiculously large time scale with regards to their removal)
Complexes are borked (in the sense that they are exploited)
The market is borked
The game doesn't run properly (lag)
It's too easy to build an empire too difficult to destroy one.
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.09.28 12:39:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 28/09/2006 12:46:14
Originally by: Constantinee
Not all alliances will last forever. One day bob will die one day ascn will die. Its all a matter of time. but as long as they are still here...lets keep shooting they are not stopping us from doing that.
Well, if the server and pos warfare doesn't change much, then those alliances will only die from within.
I think there is currently no way to bring an alliance down, if they are strong, also good at logistics and cover all timezones. The server dies first. Some month ago I was sneaking around a bit in delve with an alt just to see, how the west is. I guess noone would challenge bob for a real war with the goal of conquering delve. Same surely true for ascn space and others. ( Running against strong defenders with hundreds (?) of poses in their space isn't anything most people like to do. )
The best people could reach is probably a stalemate situation over months, until people give up because of not getting further or because BoB/ASCN/other big alliance beats them away. The whole thing with an insane war bill.
I suppose such a war would be RAŚ. 
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Nez Perces
Amarr
Black Spot.
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Posted - 2006.09.28 17:09:00 -
[63]
I guess this thread became kind of irrelevant with the latest developments on the ASCN - BoB front...
.. worry no more, one of the two could be very much debilitated in the near future..
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mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:13:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Nez Perces
I guess this thread became kind of irrelevant with the latest developments on the ASCN - BoB front...
.. worry no more, one of the two could be very much debilitated in the near future..
We will see. Forum smack doasnt equal ingame fighting. Dont get me wrong I hope you are right. I hope whoevers e-peen doasnt measure up gets mad and attacks.
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NeoTech
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: Nez Perces
I guess this thread became kind of irrelevant with the latest developments on the ASCN - BoB front...
.. worry no more, one of the two could be very much debilitated in the near future..
We will see. Forum smack doasnt equal ingame fighting. Dont get me wrong I hope you are right. I hope whoevers e-peen doasnt measure up gets mad and attacks.
Dont worry... ASCN has heard ur prayers. We'll remove BoB and make u happy... mmkay? :)
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mishkof
Caldari
Emerald Empire
Muffins of Mayhem
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:28:00 -
[66]
Originally by: NeoTech
Dont worry... ASCN has heard ur prayers. We'll remove BoB and make u happy... mmkay? :)
I was going to edit my above post a little after reading the pendulam thread however....doas this mean you guys/ASCN/AXE wont be camping HED anymore? I am certain that if my organization were forced to chose sides however hard the decision would be it wouldnt be yours/ASCN/AXE.
By the way nothing will change for me anyways. we have no allies within 15 jumps of our home station. We are at war every day. We just dont feel the need to post everytime we change standings is all.
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NeoTech
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: mishkof
Originally by: NeoTech
Dont worry... ASCN has heard ur prayers. We'll remove BoB and make u happy... mmkay? :)
I was going to edit my above post a little after reading the pendulam thread however....doas this mean you guys/ASCN/AXE wont be camping HED anymore? I am certain that if my organization were forced to chose sides however hard the decision would be it wouldnt be yours/ASCN/AXE.
By the way nothing will change for me anyways. we have no allies within 15 jumps of our home station. We are at war every day. We just dont feel the need to post everytime we change standings is all.
so are we... but this is, special. :)
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Hellraiza666
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:40:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Masta Killa
Many or few, titans or frigs,
they're all nubs
i heard that masta killa geezer is a nub too
Ps. Hi MK <3
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NATMav
F.R.E.E. Explorer
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:42:00 -
[69]
Edited by: NATMav on 28/09/2006 18:42:33
The swing of the pendulum will behave just as intended. Some battles will go one way, some the other, but in the end, the pendulum will return back to rest in the state it began.
In other words, this will change nothing. ASCN has too many pilots, stations, and resources to be taken out completely. I predict that BoB will make a strong first push to take one of the weaker station systems to gain a foothold in the region. By the time that is complete, ASCN will have every other system fortified, and both sides will be stuck in a quagmire in and around the one station system that BoB conquers.
Let's face it, BoB needed help from ASCN in order to lay siege to EC-P8R and it still took a few days with a completely locked down system and no server issues. Multiply that by the ungodly number of stations ASCN has, as well as ASCN's numbers advantage, and it will be long and difficult campaign for either side to gain or lose territory.
FREEE is Recruiting |
Luke Skyrider
DAB
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.28 19:41:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Luke Skyrider on 28/09/2006 19:45:50
Human resources are far more important than anything within alliances and corps. In general, gaming groups are about people and ships, ISK etc. are only tools.
Good teamplayers and leaders are a deadly mix in EvE, that can turn every small alliance into a rising star. 1M SPs teamplayers are a better corp asset than 10M SPs self-centered players. Everyone must give some of their online gaming time back to the team in order to survive because to run a succesful corp or alliance are alot of work.
Alliance members with a good team spirit are the greatest asset, not ISK. Get to many "bad apples" and the team will die, 100% guarantee.
[PvP-Recruitment] | www.dab-online.com |
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Kasak Black
133rd Ghost Wing
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Posted - 2006.09.29 15:56:00 -
[71]
To the OP, all Alliances fall, given time all Alliances will fail. Some examples...
The Roman Empire and the British Empire
Two of the biggest Empires man has ever known, some of the richest too. And here we are in 2006, with new world players like America and China.
In time, these will fall, and someone else will come along. It don't matter how big and rich they are, there is always someone stronger, smarter, richer and better to take over 
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Michuh
Vortex.
Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.09.29 16:24:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Mistress Suffering
Actually with good leadership, alliances can last many many years. Mostly it just depends on whether someone with the skills and interest is available when a time for transition occurs.
EVE simply isn't going to be around long enough that its strongest alliances are doomed to failure. They could easily outlast it.
Ive a funny feeling your wrong about that.. CCP have hit on a framework, that may well last several more years..
Maelstrom Recruitment
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Swinton Wolsoncroft
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.31 21:10:00 -
[73]
ITT BoB grabs the shaft of their nearest corpmate and goes full on for broke.
Do not trolls in your sig. -Kaemonn |
Stinkywrix
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.31 21:11:00 -
[74]
WOAH A BLAST FROM THE PAST
Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo |
Torquemanda Corteaz
Gallente
Infinite Improbability Inc
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.08.31 21:19:00 -
[75]
well that was big and clever 
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Lord Eidion
S-44
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Posted - 2007.08.31 21:43:00 -
[76]
Quite a nice necro, nice wif the dates and all... and still valid.... but necromancy is still bad... cus dead things should be left alone lest they take on a life on it's own. ;p
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.31 22:02:00 -
[77]
Lol, shows how little has changed. I didn't even realise I was reading a necro until I saw someone mention ASCN
------
Originally by: CCP Prism X
There's no such thing as playing too much EvE!
You all obviously need more accounts! |
dastommy79
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.31 22:14:00 -
[78]
I'm in a soon to be moderated thread \o/
I driks alots |
Gericault m0id
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2007.08.31 22:34:00 -
[79]
Four letters: Rome
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Lord Eidion
S-44
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Posted - 2007.08.31 22:41:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Gericault m0id
Four letters: Rome
What does the Italian capital have anything to do with this?
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Valorem
Amarr
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.08.31 22:45:00 -
[81]
Necro
forum rules | CAOD Rules | [email protected] | Our Website |
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