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murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.27 04:33:00 - [1] Gank oriented ships- more specifically blaster boats, and in particular the Blasterthron have been successively marginalized by each defensive change added to the game and here's why: The current ship designs with respect to blasters and the ships that use them suffer from a knife edge balancing act with respect to their cap. Just a single nos can completely cripple a blaster ship. This is due to the increased combat times and increased cap use over the original requirements to kill a particular target, now that resistances have increased on average (armor compensation skills for instance) and HP have been added to all ships. Using the Blasterthron as an example the Bthron has very little endurance in the field as you're practically mandated to carry a full load of 800 sized cap charges, and if you get into a fight with anything less than a maxed out amount of 800s, there's always some question as to if you're going to have enough endurance to finish the fight. I can carry 19 800 charges plus another 4 loaded in my cap booster for a total of 23, and that barely gets me through a fight when in a small gang and doing a 3-4 vs 3-4 BS fight. Usually at least half my cap is consumed just getting to the target, and by the time I start engaging in earnest, I'm already reloading my cap booster. Assuming we keep nos balance issues seperate, the amount of time required for a Bthron (as an example) to kill a target vs. how long it's cap will last when compared to prior kill times of past game design rules has steadily increased to the point that you're now running out of cap before you can chew through a target, and this is with one of the higest DPS ships in the game. It's particularly bad for the Bthron as it's pretty much the only BS (other than the Geddon IMO) that is so cap sensitive. All other BS designs either require no cap for their weapons, or use nos as their primary high slot weapon (Domi) so that it's not an issue. With the upcoming additions of 'defensively oriented' rigs and the Dev's stated missions of wanting to increase combat times across the board, all this does is cripple the blaster ships even further. While I've been using the Bthron as an example, it's even more critical with the frigs and cruisers, as it's completely impractical for them to mount cap boosters like the Bthron can. The Bthron can live as long as it has charges. The frigs and cruisers simply die after their cap is broken, which is quite quickly. IMO a Thorax setup, regardless of how it's set up, just isn't as flexible or dependable in a solo engagement (i.e. nobody on your side, even though there may be multiple enemies) as a Vexor or a Rupture etc. When I'm flying around in my Vexor, I'm confident that I can take on most other cruiser pilots, regardless of their character age or fittings (I'm not going to bring up ECM ). I should have that same measure of confidence with a Thorax, as it's a tier 3 cruiser instead of a tier 2 like the Vexor is, but I don't. What do the rest of you think about where the game is headed with respect to increased combat times and decreased 'gank' effectiveness? Because I said so...
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.09.27 04:56:00 - [2] Yes those poor poor blaster pilots..... --- CCP how about the pith X & A mods? "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Benglada Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.09.27 04:58:00 - [3] and give the deimos more pg.....yea. --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.27 04:58:00 - [4] One word: Hyperion. Then we'll see. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Orvas Dren Gallente The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.09.27 05:56:00 - [5] Bthron hasn't got enough cap to run MWD for decent time to close 20km+ distance, so people fit Heavy Booster and 800's. Hyperion comes with larger than standard cap with larger recharge time to match. Heavy Booster will still likely be fitted to most, but its no longer absolutely required, this along with a speed boost that may make it so that one cycle of MWD gets the Hyperion to close the distance that a Bthron covers in 2 or 3. So the problems then.. Hyperion has no tracking bonus... blasters aren't known for even hitting BS up close without both ships sitting still. So, the Hyperion gets to the target faster, but is less able to hit it. The Megathron gets to the target a bit slower, but can hit it much better, even while there is a bit of motion. What I would like to see... Fleets where there is not only snipe vs snipe, but in the front of the lines there are some blaster/pulse ships that come racing at either each other or the snipers, and actually doing their job. To do this... 250km Fleet fights have to go away, there is nothing fun or intense about F1-F8 at a target that is nothing but a reticle in the distance. I would like to see max lock distance be 75km, with the average sniper only reaching that with high/max skills, Spike/Tremor, 2xTracking Comp II/1xtracking Eng II. MWD would need a slight effeciency boost, to help promote a bit more usage out of it. Long range T2 blaster/AC/pulse ammo would need to be shortened along side the other ammo types, and the optimal/falloff of the blaster/AC/pulse themselves tweaked to be accurate to their purpose, no point in having 75km be max range, and have a 'close range' ship reach into the mid-range area with its guns, it should have to close to web range to hit, or only just be able to sit outside it with T2 long ammo (Null/Barrage). Of course, off-topic, for fleet fights to be more interesting, ECM would have to change, damps would have to be a bit different and tanking would have to become easier with NPC's being balanced to maintain or even make them a bit more difficult. /me dons the flame-retardant suit. EVE-Mail me for custom signature work. Price Negotiable
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.27 07:40:00 - [6] Thorium charges ? Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.09.27 15:49:00 - [7] Haha, blaster ships suck?
Kruel	Posted - 2006.09.27 17:05:00 - [8] NOS = WIN Maybe they should up the cap in addition to the HP.
Coran Ordus Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.27 17:33:00 - [9] Interesting points. Perhaps the balancing should be to reduce the cap usage of blasters? Increasing their damage will directly negate the whole point of the HP/slow battle change. But reducing the cap drain will let you fight longer, but still fit the role of doing more damage faster than anyone, but being vulnerable when the fight starts dragging out. It will also address the similar issues in smaller ships, without fundamentally changing the ship's cap balance. (You can't suddenly mwd twice as far as before, as would happen with a cap increase.)
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.27 17:48:00 - [10] Perhaps you should setup your ** so that you're able to fit a NOS or 2 to help with your cap, while killing your target's? Originally by:** kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.27 17:58:00 - [11] Agreed! Blasterboat concept is to close in fast, and kill the target before your artificially boosted (800s) tank fails. The longer the fight the less chance the b-boat has to accomplish its task.
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.09.27 18:00:00 - [12] Lasers use more cap than blasters, so this problem is more severe for Amarr.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.27 18:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Stephar Lasers use more cap than blasters, so this problem is more severe for Amarr. ah? try shooting AM. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Verus Potestas Caldari Fiat Mort	Posted - 2006.09.27 18:43:00 - [14] Blasters are now a more viable weapon than they have been for years Signature removed - please email to find out why (include a link to the original image) - Jacques([email protected]) RAWR!111 Sig Hijackz0r!!11 - Immy
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.09.27 18:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Stephar Lasers use more cap than blasters, so this problem is more severe for Amarr. ah? try shooting AM. Blasters with antimatter use less cap than lasers with multifrequency.
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.27 19:03:00 - [16] There is nothing wrong with the blastermega. All closerange pvp bs will have to use injectors to keep an active tank running. Obviously the mega will have to use an mwd to get close to do damage, but on the other hand an acpest or pulseapoc will have to use an mwd to keep its range to a blastermega. There is nothing wrong with the thorax either. There are crusiers that are much worse off, maller and omen for example.
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.27 19:12:00 - [17] The cap problem of lasers and hybrids is based around ammo. Like the thorium charge. 40% cap saved compared to AM. However the DPS obsession in this game does prohibit the tactical use of cap warfare other than nos and cap injectors. No use saving cap for tank with lower damage charges because you can have the target dead before you run out of cap no matter what tank he has fitted. There's a concept problem in some aspects of gameplay that prohibits some ship statistics to be used to your advantage. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.09.27 19:36:00 - [18] i mostly disagree with the OP, i alredy posted something about that in general forum and imo a buff in tankage is more benefical to high dps weapons and we know that blaster are in this category. a boost on defence in form of more hps is a problem for arty that rely mostly on alpha strike to balance out its low dps a boost in defence in form of healing or resists improvement will make the difference in dps between low and high dps systems even more relevant than now. to have longer fights can for sure generate more cap troubles, but even now a balanced ship can fire and use a lar whitout that much cap troubles (if not nosed) if you start to use 2 lar then sure you will have troubles, but so even minnie ships that have generally less cap than other races.
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.27 20:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Stephar Lasers use more cap than blasters, so this problem is more severe for Amarr. ah? try shooting AM. Blasters with antimatter use less cap than lasers with multifrequency. ammar ships has way better cap then gallente ? ammar dont need mwd to get into range ? ( well most time ) JOIN cooolest channel in game "wierchas fan club" be cool ^^
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.27 20:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Stephar Lasers use more cap than blasters, so this problem is more severe for Amarr. ah? try shooting AM. Blasters with antimatter use less cap than lasers with multifrequency. Since when does a geddon or apoc need to mwd right up next to their target you stupid tit In rust we trust!!!
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.09.27 20:39:00 - [21] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter ammar ships has way better cap then gallente ? ammar dont need mwd to get into range ? ( well most time ) Maller has same cap regen as Thorax. Prophecy has same cap regen as Brutix.
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.09.27 20:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Murukan Since when does a geddon or apoc need to mwd right up next to their target you stupid tit Considering that Amarr deals less damage than the other races at close range, I'd say that Amarr has just as much incentive to maintain range as the other races have to close it.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.27 20:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Stephar Originally by: wierchas noobhunter ammar ships has way better cap then gallente ? ammar dont need mwd to get into range ? ( well most time ) Maller has same cap regen as Thorax. Prophecy has same cap regen as Brutix. Then when you take into account the mwd penalty (not as bad on the thorax) and the fact that mwdin to your target takes a ton of cap hey look gallente really don't have an advantage. So i reiterate that you're a stupid tit. In rust we trust!!!
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.27 20:49:00 - [24] Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Murukan Since when does a geddon or apoc need to mwd right up next to their target you stupid tit Considering that Amarr deals less damage than the other races at close range, I'd say that Amarr has just as much incentive to maintain range as the other races have to close it. actually a maller has 100 more cap than a thorax, does not have to fit a mwd (pulses have a MUCH MUCH longer range than blasters so dont give us that crap about range) and a maller, and other amarr ships... like the apoc, get a bonus to cap use on their lasers that actually bring cap use on lasers down to, or at the same level as blasters. Thanks but you are wrong.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.27 20:51:00 - [25] Edited by: Aramendel on 27/09/2006 20:51:54 Originally by: wierchas noobhunter ammar ships has way better cap then gallente ? ammar dont need mwd to get into range ? ( well most time ) Fristly, this changes what with the fact that blasters need less cap/sec than pulse lasers? Nothing? Secondly, a geddon has 250 LESS cap than the mega. The apoc has 300 more. With the ship skill this can get 1800 more, of cource, but the 25% cap bonus is considered weak for a reason... Thirdly, they need a MWD to STAY in range. Since amarr have the so called "med range advantage" they need to stay there to use it. Considering people complain that blasters do not hit well at close range, just guess how well a pluse laser with not even 60% of the blaster tracking will hit there. Nevermind the dps difference.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:08:00 - [26] Lasers at range? Better. Because, unless you haden't noticed, it's harder to generate transversal at range. And if a target's MWDing at you, you'll do a LOT of damage before it gets its blasters within range. AND lasers get a major cap reduction from their ship skill. The complaint is 100% correct - it's a MAJOR nerf to blasters and is utterly uncessary, when the real issue is T2 amo's damage and range advantages. //Maya
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Nybbas actually a maller has 100 more cap than a thorax, does not have to fit a mwd (pulses have a MUCH MUCH longer range than blasters so dont give us that crap about range) and a maller, and other amarr ships... like the apoc, get a bonus to cap use on their lasers that actually bring cap use on lasers down to, or at the same level as blasters. Thanks but you are wrong. OK, so a Maller starts off with 100 more cap. It's like having a free cap 100 charge in the hold... or an extra 5m3 in the cargo bay. The Thorax and Maller still have the same cap regen rates. As for laser and hybrid cap use, before skills... Tachyon II = 7.60 cap/sec Mega Beam II = 7.22 cap/sec Mega Pulse II = 5.08 cap/sec 425 Railgun II = 3.14 cap/sec 350 Railgun II = 3.01 cap/sec Neutron Blaster Cannon II = 2.31 cap/sec Assuming the Amarrian pilot has trained all spaceship command skills to level V... Tachyon II = 3.80 cap/sec Mega Beam II = 3.61 cap/sec 425 Railgun II = 3.14 cap/sec 350 Railgun II = 3.01 cap/sec Mega Pulse II = 2.54 cap/sec Neutron Blaster II = 2.31 cap/sec BTW - These are in-game figures. The stats you'll see in the "ships and modules" section on the website are inaccurate and don't reflect the changes in the most recent blaster buff patch.
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Nybbas actually a maller has 100 more cap than a thorax, does not have to fit a mwd (pulses have a MUCH MUCH longer range than blasters so dont give us that crap about range) and a maller, and other amarr ships... like the apoc, get a bonus to cap use on their lasers that actually bring cap use on lasers down to, or at the same level as blasters. Thanks but you are wrong. OK, so a Maller starts off with 100 more cap. It's like having a free cap 100 charge in the hold... or an extra 5m3 in the cargo bay. The Thorax and Maller still have the same cap regen rates. As for laser and hybrid cap use, before skills... Tachyon II = 7.60 cap/sec Mega Beam II = 7.22 cap/sec Mega Pulse II = 5.08 cap/sec 425 Railgun II = 3.14 cap/sec 350 Railgun II = 3.01 cap/sec Neutron Blaster Cannon II = 2.31 cap/sec Assuming the Amarrian pilot has trained all spaceship command skills to level V... Tachyon II = 3.80 cap/sec Mega Beam II = 3.61 cap/sec 425 Railgun II = 3.14 cap/sec 350 Railgun II = 3.01 cap/sec Mega Pulse II = 2.54 cap/sec Neutron Blaster II = 2.31 cap/sec BTW - These are in-game figures. The stats you'll see in the "ships and modules" section on the website are inaccurate and don't reflect the changes in the most recent blaster buff patch. yes, now compile with the an apocs already higher cap amount over a megathron, and the .3 cap per second that these weapon systems use becomes a non issue. Thanks for proving my point. And how many amarr ships fit mwds? give me a break. the gallente ships that fit them not only get a reduction to their max capacitor BUT THEY ALSO keep the same cap recharge meaning their cap recharges at a slower rate anyways. A blaster ship HAS NO CHOICE but to fit a mwd unless it wants to die miserable, a ship using pulses would be fine without one, and they normally don't fit them.
Wodin Drukvik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Maya Rkell Lasers at range? Better. Because, unless you haden't noticed, it's harder to generate transversal at range. And if a target's MWDing at you, you'll do a LOT of damage before it gets its blasters within range. AND lasers get a major cap reduction from their ship skill. Errr... The numbers quoted(blasters with AM vs. pulses with MF) are with max skills. And that amazing "lots of damage" before you get into blaster range on cruiser-sized weapons is measured by the amount of time it takes a blasterboat to close that amazing 4.5km differential between blaster optimal and pulse optimal. That 4.5km extra must have a pretty amazing differential in effect given that we give up damage, tracking, and cap superiority to use it.
webkert Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Nybbas Originally by: Stephar Originally by: Nybbas actually a maller has 100 more cap than a thorax, does not have to fit a mwd (pulses have a MUCH MUCH longer range than blasters so dont give us that crap about range) and a maller, and other amarr ships... like the apoc, get a bonus to cap use on their lasers that actually bring cap use on lasers down to, or at the same level as blasters. Thanks but you are wrong. OK, so a Maller starts off with 100 more cap. It's like having a free cap 100 charge in the hold... or an extra 5m3 in the cargo bay. The Thorax and Maller still have the same cap regen rates. As for laser and hybrid cap use, before skills... Tachyon II = 7.60 cap/sec Mega Beam II = 7.22 cap/sec Mega Pulse II = 5.08 cap/sec 425 Railgun II = 3.14 cap/sec 350 Railgun II = 3.01 cap/sec Neutron Blaster Cannon II = 2.31 cap/sec Assuming the Amarrian pilot has trained all spaceship command skills to level V... Tachyon II = 3.80 cap/sec Mega Beam II = 3.61 cap/sec 425 Railgun II = 3.14 cap/sec 350 Railgun II = 3.01 cap/sec Mega Pulse II = 2.54 cap/sec Neutron Blaster II = 2.31 cap/sec BTW - These are in-game figures. The stats you'll see in the "ships and modules" section on the website are inaccurate and don't reflect the changes in the most recent blaster buff patch. yes, now compile with the an apocs already higher cap amount over a megathron, and the .3 cap per second that these weapon systems use becomes a non issue. Thanks for proving my point. And how many amarr ships fit mwds? give me a break. the gallente ships that fit them not only get a reduction to their max capacitor BUT THEY ALSO keep the same cap recharge meaning their cap recharges at a slower rate anyways. A blaster ship HAS NO CHOICE but to fit a mwd unless it wants to die miserable, a ship using pulses would be fine without one, and they normally don't fit them. Then I guess you don't fly amarr ships, I do and I use mwds on all my pulse ships. The reason the apoc has more cap is because of a bonus, would you rather have that instead of the damage bonus the thron has? well I'm sure you dont becuase its crap.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:39:00 - [31] Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Originally by: Maya Rkell Lasers at range? Better. Because, unless you haden't noticed, it's harder to generate transversal at range. And if a target's MWDing at you, you'll do a LOT of damage before it gets its blasters within range. AND lasers get a major cap reduction from their ship skill. Errr... The numbers quoted(blasters with AM vs. pulses with MF) are with max skills. And that amazing "lots of damage" before you get into blaster range on cruiser-sized weapons is measured by the amount of time it takes a blasterboat to close that amazing 4.5km differential between blaster optimal and pulse optimal. That 4.5km extra must have a pretty amazing differential in effect given that we give up damage, tracking, and cap superiority to use it. Erm... Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:41:00 - [32] Gabriel? You beat me to it. But yes, good summary. PS, remembering MWD's bloom your sig radius, and effective tracking is thus boosted, re-run the tracking figures... //Maya
Wodin Drukvik GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:45:00 - [33] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Erm... Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Yes, it's a wider disparity at the battleship level. You'll note my post contained the phrase "cruiser-sized weapons" - those were what I happened to have up in Quickfit at the time. :) The distance differential increases somewhat at the battleship class, but so does the damage and tracking differential.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Maya Rkell Lasers at range? Better. Because, unless you haden't noticed, it's harder to generate transversal at range. And if a target's MWDing at you, you'll do a LOT of damage before it gets its blasters within range. AND lasers get a major cap reduction from their ship skill. The complaint is 100% correct - it's a MAJOR nerf to blasters and is utterly uncessary, when the real issue is T2 amo's damage and range advantages. Originally by: Oveur General HP Boost, HP ratio vs other ship classes, ECM changes, Tech 2 ammo, extra HP boost for capital ships and more is in Kali 1. Tux will cover those changes. Seems we can expect a fix :)
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:51:00 - [35] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 27/09/2006 21:52:07 That's not a fix. They're talking about making the system directly worse. Boosting hp further, boosting larger ships hp preferentially, boosting T2 amo, and so on. That's precisely what DOSN'T need to happen for hp. ALL that needs to be done is for T2 amo to NOT do drastically higher amounts of damage (and range), and combat gets MUCH longer anyway! They're focusing on nerfing small group combat to make way for fleet. //Maya
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:56:00 - [36] It's just says tech2 ammo, nothing about boosting it. It can be anything, but considering everything they have said about cutting ranges and making combat last longer I kind of doubt it's a boost.
Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.09.27 21:58:00 - [37] Blasters could use another damage boost imo, you listening Tuxford? Its so much harder to get in range with a Blasterthron and live to tell the story than it is to fly a Gankgeddon, which is dead-dumb simple, and much more flexible imo... The reward for using blasters doesn't match the risk... Unless ur 1337 like Waywatcher, ur gonna run out of cap, or die before you ever get in range... Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.27 22:02:00 - [38] Originally by: Hoshi It's just says tech2 ammo, nothing about boosting it. It can be anything, but considering everything they have said about cutting ranges and making combat last longer I kind of doubt it's a boost. They're talking about significant other boosts to combat for everything else there. T2 amo being their "equaliser". Which it's NOT. Yes, combat will take "longer". That is, anythign NOT gank set is less and less useful. //Maya
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.27 22:10:00 - [39] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Hoshi It's just says tech2 ammo, nothing about boosting it. It can be anything, but considering everything they have said about cutting ranges and making combat last longer I kind of doubt it's a boost. They're talking about significant other boosts to combat for everything else there. T2 amo being their "equaliser". Which it's NOT. Yes, combat will take "longer". That is, anythign NOT gank set is less and less useful. So the ECM changes are a significant boost too I guess? I'm sorry but your argument does not hold water. But I guess we will see then it's tux time to blog.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.27 22:11:00 - [40] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 27/09/2006 22:12:08 ECM changes dont impact hp. And given all the other hp changes there are bad, and T2 amo is currently bad, why wait? The soloution is OBVIOUS. //Maya
Ares Helix Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.09.27 23:16:00 - [41] Hmmm, I use 4x Modal Mega Blasters & 4x Nos for PVP on my mega... Is that wrong? I run 2x cap rechargers as well, and i don't have any cap issues. Sure, I don't do as much DPS, but I can rep, run my burner and my guns indefinitely, or at least until they run outta cap and have to switch off their own NOS!!! They made ME a General? What were all the 5 year old sissy girls busy? o_0 ... How'd he know!?!
ChalSto The Galactic Empire Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.28 00:43:00 - [42] LOL at this threat After 3 years in EvE, I finaly can say, that I lost more ships due to lag and bugs, than in any battle.
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.28 00:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Falloff called, he wants his ignorance back. And T2 ammo left a message on your machine.
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.28 00:54:00 - [44] Originally by: Maya Rkell PS, remembering MWD's bloom your sig radius, and effective tracking is thus boosted, re-run the tracking figures... It's above 400 to begin with (for the Megathron, which I assume you're arguing here is hurt by MWDing), signature radius cannot boost tracking, it can only penalize it (ie any multiplier higher than 1 is disregarded and treated as 1).
xeom Veto.	Posted - 2006.09.28 01:21:00 - [45] Originally by: Trevedian Blasters could use another damage boost imo, you listening Tuxford? Its so much harder to get in range with a Blasterthron and live to tell the story than it is to fly a Gankgeddon, which is dead-dumb simple, and much more flexible imo... The reward for using blasters doesn't match the risk... Unless ur 1337 like Waywatcher, ur gonna run out of cap, or die before you ever get in range... Yep Void just doesn't cut it! --- CCP how about the pith X & A mods? "Those nuclear missiles are for domestic heating." - Scagga
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.28 01:39:00 - [46] Edited by: Grimpak on 28/09/2006 01:41:04 Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Falloff called, he wants his ignorance back. And T2 ammo left a message on your machine. T2 ammo also called you. oh and in a serious note, since you talk about falloff: considering that damage at optimal+fallof = to 50% of the damage made at optimal, and considering trajectory analysis, wich is usually at lvl4 (+20% falloff to guns) we have: MPII range (optimal with MF + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 15 + 8 + 1.6 = 24,6 for optimal + falloff MPII range with scorch (optimal + 50% scorch bonus + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 24 + 12 + 8 + 1.6 = 45,6km for optimal + falloff penalties of ammo: nearly gamma-like damage + 25% less tracking + MF-like cap usage. T2 neutron blaster range (optimal with AM + fallof + 20% falloff skill) : 4.5 + 10 + 2 = 16.5km for optimal + falloff T2 neutron blaster range with null (optimal + 25% range bonus + 25% falloff + 20% falloff bonus) : 7.2 + 2 + 10 + 2.5 + 2 = 23,7km for optimal + falloff penalties for ammo: AM-like cap usage + plutonium-like damage for T2 ion blasters reduce optimal range and falloff in 20% so yes, we still have pulses doing more damage than neutron blasters at optimal, and even with fallof, pulses reach farther than neutrons. same thing happens when you put T2 ammo, but it's much more pronounciated, with range diferences reaching the double of neutrons, with optimal and falloff combined. who is ignorant now? ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.28 02:10:00 - [47] Originally by: Trevedian Blasters could use another damage boost imo, you listening Tuxford? Its so much harder to get in range with a Blasterthron and live to tell the story than it is to fly a Gankgeddon, which is dead-dumb simple, and much more flexible imo... The reward for using blasters doesn't match the risk... Unless ur 1337 like Waywatcher, ur gonna run out of cap, or die before you ever get in range... waywatcher is pretty crazy, he out damaged the sentry guns with rails one time lol In rust we trust!!!
Siro Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.09.28 02:10:00 - [48] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Wodin Drukvik Originally by: Maya Rkell Lasers at range? Better. Because, unless you haden't noticed, it's harder to generate transversal at range. And if a target's MWDing at you, you'll do a LOT of damage before it gets its blasters within range. AND lasers get a major cap reduction from their ship skill. Errr... The numbers quoted(blasters with AM vs. pulses with MF) are with max skills. And that amazing "lots of damage" before you get into blaster range on cruiser-sized weapons is measured by the amount of time it takes a blasterboat to close that amazing 4.5km differential between blaster optimal and pulse optimal. That 4.5km extra must have a pretty amazing differential in effect given that we give up damage, tracking, and cap superiority to use it. Erm... Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km And mwding toward a geddon will get the thron underneath the geddons tracking ability in around 16 seconds, or 3-4 volleys. (Last I checked, 3-4 volleys won't kill a thron). At which point the geddon has to also mwd to get back into tracking range. But since the geddon probably doesn't have a mwd fitted, he just has to warp out or be dead.
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.28 07:00:00 - [49] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 28/09/2006 01:41:04 Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Falloff called, he wants his ignorance back. And T2 ammo left a message on your machine. T2 ammo also called you. oh and in a serious note, since you talk about falloff: considering that damage at optimal+fallof = to 50% of the damage made at optimal, and considering trajectory analysis, wich is usually at lvl4 (+20% falloff to guns) we have: MPII range (optimal with MF + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 15 + 8 + 1.6 = 24,6 for optimal + falloff MPII range with scorch (optimal + 50% scorch bonus + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 24 + 12 + 8 + 1.6 = 45,6km for optimal + falloff penalties of ammo: nearly gamma-like damage + 25% less tracking + MF-like cap usage. T2 neutron blaster range (optimal with AM + fallof + 20% falloff skill) : 4.5 + 10 + 2 = 16.5km for optimal + falloff T2 neutron blaster range with null (optimal + 25% range bonus + 25% falloff + 20% falloff bonus) : 7.2 + 2 + 10 + 2.5 + 2 = 23,7km for optimal + falloff penalties for ammo: AM-like cap usage + plutonium-like damage for T2 ion blasters reduce optimal range and falloff in 20% so yes, we still have pulses doing more damage than neutron blasters at optimal, and even with fallof, pulses reach farther than neutrons. same thing happens when you put T2 ammo, but it's much more pronounciated, with range diferences reaching the double of neutrons, with optimal and falloff combined. who is ignorant now? So many blatant things you're ignoring here, but lets start with the actual outdamaging : Kin damage modifier : 0.75 Therm damage modifier : 0.65 EM damage modifier : 0.4 Scorch L : 360.4 + 80.65 = 14.4 + 5.2 = 19.6 Conflag : 320.4 + 280.65 = 31.0 Null L : 200.75 + 240.65 = 15 + 15.6 = 30.6 Void L : 280.75 + 320.65 = 41.8 Mega Pulse II mod/s : 0.456 Neutron II mod/s : 0.541 Conflag vs Null : 31/30.6 = 1.013 ( 1.3% advantage ) Mega Pulse versus Neutron : 0.456 / 0.541 = 0.842 (15.8% penalty) Combined : 1.013 * 0.842 = 0.853 (14.7% disadvantage) Null Neutrons outdamage MP IIs within 20km (the real breakpoint being at about 17km due to falloff mechanics). That effectively puts the range advantage exclusively outside standard disruptor range. This is ignoring the usefulness of a tracking bonus versus a 75% tracking penalty, which really skews things in favor of the Megathron. And if we want to take a quick look at how much useful damage that is : 19.6 / 30.6 * 0.842 = 0.539 (46.1% damage reduction) Man, the Megathron sure is horrible - not being able to shoot outside disruptor range for practically half damage. And god is it ever hard to land within 20km of something There's really not much usefulness to the MP Armageddon. Those 20-40km are midrange that are much, much better covered by the Javraven since it's not hardcapped after that - while also allowing for more useful fittings. And within range, the Megathron wins hands down with it's ~20km effective range and MWD and tracking bonus. And the ability to outdamage anything else inside webrange. Just for giggles, lets compare Conflag to Void : 31.0 / 41.8 * 0.842 = 0.6244 ( 37.6% damage difference ) Good times.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.28 07:54:00 - [50] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Falloff called, he wants his ignorance back. And T2 ammo left a message on your machine. Mega pulse II falloff with skills = 10km Neutron II falloff with skills = 12.5km Ion II falloff with skills = 10km What about T2 ammo? Conflagration has a lesser penalty than Void, and Scorch gives up to 55km optimal + falloff compared to 26km for Neutron II's and 21km for Ion II's. But whatever, the poster I quoted was apparently talking about cruiser sized blasters. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:06:00 - [51] Edited by: TuRtLe HeAd on 28/09/2006 08:06:42 OMG, Nerf to blaster ships ? All they ever get is boosted ,While other races fall behind. First its Amarr complaing about Cap issues Now its Gallente. I Love My Blasterthron, And Feel that there is No issue here at all. 4 Heavy NOS against the Blasterthron with a Cap injector, And The Cap Still holds with an ION Blastering Tank OR Gank setup. This is a blatant Anti Minmatar Thread, The fact is that Minmatar Were never ever meant to use cap in their weapons, CCP admitted that the cap useage was an oversight. The Blasterthron is Not the only cap dependent BS to Fire its guns, Your analysis is totally bias. Both Amarr BS's Need Cap to a greater extent that the megathron. I Love the Thorax also, and I do aggree that its not quite as versatile as it used to be, it is still Miles better than the vexor. (I too take more risks in the vexor, But thats because Of the Overpowered Drones ) CCP please Do not Ever Touch Gallente again. They have the Best of Everything in EvE (Moros wiht a stoooopid drone bonus, Thanatos, Uber Carrier pwn Mobile, Dominix, Ishtar, Ishkur, EOS drone Monsters Astarte Diemos Megathron Blastering More DPS than I can throw a WTFBBQ At . They should be the last race to ever ever ever get boosted again.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:19:00 - [52] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Falloff called, he wants his ignorance back. And T2 ammo left a message on your machine. Oh yes, because fighting in falloff RULES! If you fight at 15km using Neutron IIs, you will be gimped horribly, unlike the megapulse user. then again, I use torps, so I'll just sit at 20km and say screw both of you. Also, I hope to god CCP realize what a horrible mistake T2 ammo is, and changes it. Comeon Ovuer, Tux, TomB. Drop the stupid 'long and short range' and 'small pwn and big pwn' for turrets and missiles. Make ammo that neutralizes enemy cap, has a chance to make an active mod deactivate, does OTHER DAMAGE TYPES, possibly even things like shockwave missiles, which can 'bump' something. FFS, anything is better than the current setup, which forces you to specialize to even be useful. Whatever happened to T2 not being needed, but being something you'd choose to specialize in? T2 is now a must in long range engagements. I know you guys know this. There's no contest between spike and lead, the former isn't even usable in rare, arguibly powerful faction and officer weapons (granted, rage torps fired from estamel seige launchers would be bat** insane DPS). Originally by:** kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:26:00 - [53] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Oh yes, because fighting in falloff RULES! If you fight at 15km using Neutron IIs, you will be gimped horribly, unlike the megapulse user. ... Trained "Ignoring stuff I do not like" to lvl 5? If not you might have a look at Testicular Testes latest post here.
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 28/09/2006 01:41:04 Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Falloff called, he wants his ignorance back. And T2 ammo left a message on your machine. T2 ammo also called you. oh and in a serious note, since you talk about falloff: considering that damage at optimal+fallof = to 50% of the damage made at optimal, and considering trajectory analysis, wich is usually at lvl4 (+20% falloff to guns) we have: MPII range (optimal with MF + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 15 + 8 + 1.6 = 24,6 for optimal + falloff MPII range with scorch (optimal + 50% scorch bonus + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 24 + 12 + 8 + 1.6 = 45,6km for optimal + falloff penalties of ammo: nearly gamma-like damage + 25% less tracking + MF-like cap usage. T2 neutron blaster range (optimal with AM + fallof + 20% falloff skill) : 4.5 + 10 + 2 = 16.5km for optimal + falloff T2 neutron blaster range with null (optimal + 25% range bonus + 25% falloff + 20% falloff bonus) : 7.2 + 2 + 10 + 2.5 + 2 = 23,7km for optimal + falloff penalties for ammo: AM-like cap usage + plutonium-like damage for T2 ion blasters reduce optimal range and falloff in 20% so yes, we still have pulses doing more damage than neutron blasters at optimal, and even with fallof, pulses reach farther than neutrons. same thing happens when you put T2 ammo, but it's much more pronounciated, with range diferences reaching the double of neutrons, with optimal and falloff combined. who is ignorant now? So many blatant things you're ignoring here, but lets start with the actual outdamaging : Kin damage modifier : 0.75 Therm damage modifier : 0.65 EM damage modifier : 0.4 Scorch L : 360.4 + 80.65 = 14.4 + 5.2 = 19.6 Conflag : 320.4 + 280.65 = 31.0 Null L : 200.75 + 240.65 = 15 + 15.6 = 30.6 Void L : 280.75 + 320.65 = 41.8 Mega Pulse II mod/s : 0.456 Neutron II mod/s : 0.541 Conflag vs Null : 31/30.6 = 1.013 ( 1.3% advantage ) Mega Pulse versus Neutron : 0.456 / 0.541 = 0.842 (15.8% penalty) Combined : 1.013 * 0.842 = 0.853 (14.7% disadvantage) Ok so you're modelling it just on the armour - well ok, considering the ships involved, but missing off the ship bonus distorts the difference, i.e. a 25% bonus to Rof has a larger effect than a 25% bonus to damage: Mega Pulse II: 3.6/(7.88x0.75) = 0.609 Neutron II: (4.2x1.25)/7.88 = 0.666 It is a 9.4% difference when considering the ship bonus, compared to the 16.7% difference without. Accounting for that, a Mega pulse II, on base armour, does 93% of the DPS of a Neutron II loaded with Null, the former at 15km, the latter at 11km. Add in fall-off, and you could expect a 5% reduction to the Neutron DPS, narrowing the gap to 2.6% "Omgwtf?!!111 Null > Conflag?!!1111" may be some responses.... well before you do consider: a) Neutron megathrons have severe cap issues (Medium booster is the maximum you can fit), and a more likely setup is with trusty Ion II's, which have: (3.375x1.25)/7.88 = 0.535 Thus yielding a 15% DPS advantage to the same Mega Pulse II as before, at 15km, where an Ion II is firing at 50% fall-off for a 15% reduction, increasing the gap to 36% b)You will never, ever, see a Megathron getting 50% hits at up to 55km, or 85% hits at 50km, with blasters of any flavour. ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:44:00 - [55] All this talk about MWDing into range makes me think.... Who the heck are you fighting that doesn't just warp off when he sees a Blasterthron coming his way going very fast and isn't close range fitted to counter it... Outside of very small engagements there really is no place for Blasterships, and even then they are painfully outclassed by Dominix, Typhoon or Raven with ECM and NOS, and that's a whole other problem then just blasters eating to much cap. It's the warping game that really kills blasters IMO. As for Amarr ships having the "Mid range advantage" In my experience midrange is dead in Eve anyways. You will always be outranged by snipers in group fights, you will always be outgunned by close range in solo, and since if you ever get into a situation where you can nail your oponent at midrange without him being able to either get closer or move further away they will just warp off I really don't see how Amarr get an advantage out of it.
Copine Callmeknau The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:50:00 - [56] Cut out the joke threads guys ------- See the idiot walk, see the idiot talk
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.28 09:11:00 - [57] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 28/09/2006 01:41:04 Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Gabriel Karade Mega pulse II optimal with skills and Multi's - 15km Neutron II range with skills and AM - 4.5km Ion II range with skills and AM - 3.75km Falloff called, he wants his ignorance back. And T2 ammo left a message on your machine. T2 ammo also called you. oh and in a serious note, since you talk about falloff: considering that damage at optimal+fallof = to 50% of the damage made at optimal, and considering trajectory analysis, wich is usually at lvl4 (+20% falloff to guns) we have: MPII range (optimal with MF + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 15 + 8 + 1.6 = 24,6 for optimal + falloff MPII range with scorch (optimal + 50% scorch bonus + falloff + 20% falloff skill bonus) : 24 + 12 + 8 + 1.6 = 45,6km for optimal + falloff penalties of ammo: nearly gamma-like damage + 25% less tracking + MF-like cap usage. T2 neutron blaster range (optimal with AM + fallof + 20% falloff skill) : 4.5 + 10 + 2 = 16.5km for optimal + falloff T2 neutron blaster range with null (optimal + 25% range bonus + 25% falloff + 20% falloff bonus) : 7.2 + 2 + 10 + 2.5 + 2 = 23,7km for optimal + falloff penalties for ammo: AM-like cap usage + plutonium-like damage for T2 ion blasters reduce optimal range and falloff in 20% so yes, we still have pulses doing more damage than neutron blasters at optimal, and even with fallof, pulses reach farther than neutrons. same thing happens when you put T2 ammo, but it's much more pronounciated, with range diferences reaching the double of neutrons, with optimal and falloff combined. who is ignorant now? So many blatant things you're ignoring here, but lets start with the actual outdamaging : Kin damage modifier : 0.75 Therm damage modifier : 0.65 EM damage modifier : 0.4 Scorch L : 360.4 + 80.65 = 14.4 + 5.2 = 19.6 Conflag : 320.4 + 280.65 = 31.0 Null L : 200.75 + 240.65 = 15 + 15.6 = 30.6 Void L : 280.75 + 320.65 = 41.8 Mega Pulse II mod/s : 0.456 Neutron II mod/s : 0.541 Conflag vs Null : 31/30.6 = 1.013 ( 1.3% advantage ) Mega Pulse versus Neutron : 0.456 / 0.541 = 0.842 (15.8% penalty) Combined : 1.013 * 0.842 = 0.853 (14.7% disadvantage) Null Neutrons outdamage MP IIs within 20km (the real breakpoint being at about 17km due to falloff mechanics). That effectively puts the range advantage exclusively outside standard disruptor range. This is ignoring the usefulness of a tracking bonus versus a 75% tracking penalty, which really skews things in favor of the Megathron. And if we want to take a quick look at how much useful damage that is : 19.6 / 30.6 * 0.842 = 0.539 (46.1% damage reduction) Man, the Megathron sure is horrible - not being able to shoot outside disruptor range for practically half damage. And god is it ever hard to land within 20km of something There's really not much usefulness to the MP Armageddon. Those 20-40km are midrange that are much, much better covered by the Javraven since it's not hardcapped after that - while also allowing for more useful fittings. And within range, the Megathron wins hands down with it's ~20km effective range and MWD and tracking bonus. And the ability to outdamage anything else inside webrange. Just for giggles, lets compare Conflag to Void : 31.0 / 41.8 * 0.842 = 0.6244 ( 37.6% damage difference ) Good times. so blasters outdamage megapulses at short range. you mean megapulses are short range weapons? oh dear that is news to me. megapulses won't oudamage blasters inside 17km simply because megapulses ARE medium range weapons. Want to make megapulses efective at short range aswell? fine. double their damage and tracking and quadruple their cap consumption so that is on par with the blasters. oh and read again, scorch provides 25% tracking nerf, not 75%. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.28 10:24:00 - [58] I realy do not get this topic. you ppl are crazy. 1. the biggest limiting factor is the 20km disruptor range, speaking about gun ranges outside of 20km is pointless if not a sniper setup. there is one easy fix, disable the bs ability to fit jump scramblers, then they gain much more manouvering space while they will need a tackler. 2. all the blaster pilots want one thing, damage superiority over any other damage system while in blaster range. does that sound right to you ? getting into range is EASY while getting OUT of range is difficult. the situation is less so critcal on cruiser level. but it is still a problem. Same with keeping range. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.28 11:18:00 - [59] Originally by: Grimpak so blasters outdamage megapulses at short range. you mean megapulses are short range weapons? oh dear that is news to me. megapulses won't oudamage blasters inside 17km simply because megapulses ARE medium range weapons. Want to make megapulses efective at short range aswell? fine... Mind to point out where anyone said he wanted to make megapulses effective short range? The whole point was to prove that they are NOT effective short range. That at least got through to you. For 1-15 km blasters are the most effective weapon system. They certainly do not need 5 km range to work better than pulses or ACs as certain morons who only look at optimal ranges believe. For other shortrange weapons to be able to stand against a blastership they need to stay in a range of 20-30 km. For this to happen they need to fit a MWD. Otherwise a blastership will eat them. The only real problem is the nonexistance of a BS sized (speak: fitting reqs) 30km warp disruptor. ------------ Anyway, to the original topic: I believe longer combat times will actually benefit blaster ships. The really hairy part is getting in range with them. Once your are at range your opponent is usually at a severe disadvance - it's weapons do not track as well and do not as much dps. While the blaster ship is out of range and approaching it is at a disadvantage. So, price question: what would be better for a blastership? - spending 50% of the battle approaching your target (and loosing a good amount of your armor doing it) and 50% of the battle next to your target or - spending 10% of the battle approaching your target (loosing only a relatively small amount of your armor doing it - not only the target will have more hp but your ship too) and spending 90% of the battle next to your target where you can use your advantages The only problem a blastership will have is running out of energy. But this is not a problem unique to blasterships - it will effect all energy using weapons, meaning all hybrids and lasers.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.28 11:39:00 - [60] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Maya Rkell PS, remembering MWD's bloom your sig radius, and effective tracking is thus boosted, re-run the tracking figures... It's above 400 to begin with (for the Megathron, which I assume you're arguing here is hurt by MWDing), signature radius cannot boost tracking, it can only penalize it (ie any multiplier higher than 1 is disregarded and treated as 1). Sorry but you are wrong, higher sig radius = more tracking even if it's larger than the gun resolution. This is the main reason why a frigate with long range guns can orbit a bs at 500m and still hit it. Try inputing the values in the tracking guide if you don't belive me.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.28 11:52:00 - [61] Edited by: Hoshi on 28/09/2006 11:52:38 The concern that longer combat will make cap reliant ships more vulnerable is a valid one. We already have the situation where ships that are not so much in need of cap like dominix and raven comes out on top. They probably need to increase cap size on most ships at the same time they increase hp to maintain balance.
Lygos ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 11:59:00 - [62] If you use covert-ops with your Mega, you won't even need a MWD. There's no more efficient way to use a null-range ship unless you are engaging multiple targets.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.09.28 12:52:00 - [63] Originally by: Testicular Testes Originally by: Maya Rkell PS, remembering MWD's bloom your sig radius, and effective tracking is thus boosted, re-run the tracking figures... It's above 400 to begin with (for the Megathron, which I assume you're arguing here is hurt by MWDing), signature radius cannot boost tracking, it can only penalize it (ie any multiplier higher than 1 is disregarded and treated as 1). I'm afraid that's plain incorrect. There is no such limit. Effective tracking is modified without limit. //Maya
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.28 12:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Grimpak so blasters outdamage megapulses at short range. you mean megapulses are short range weapons? oh dear that is news to me. megapulses won't oudamage blasters inside 17km simply because megapulses ARE medium range weapons. Want to make megapulses efective at short range aswell? fine... Mind to point out where anyone said he wanted to make megapulses effective short range? The whole point was to prove that they are NOT effective short range. That at least got through to you. For 1-15 km blasters are the most effective weapon system. They certainly do not need 5 km range to work better than pulses or ACs as certain morons who only look at optimal ranges believe. they are not effective short range weapons since they are not short range weapons. they are med-range weapons. and if you have a trouble in getting the target scrambled, well get some mates. Amarrian ships are NOT solo ships. their lack of flexibility prevents them from that. ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
OzaLoni Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.28 13:23:00 - [65] First, thanks to the guys on the test server (Currently same as tranq) last night, it was awesome. Now, I had kitted out a nice Bthron, with 7 neutrons t2 2 ecm (don't even start about this), scram, ab 3 dmb, 3 plates, cpr All I can say is that with a few +5% implants (mainly dmg and range) this ship is capable of hitting from 40km and hitting hard, not often, but hard! From about 26 it was getting almost constant hits. I agree solo the Bthron is still not perfect, but in gangs it can be awesome!
Testicular Testes	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:14:00 - [66] Originally by: Grimpak megapulses won't oudamage blasters inside 17km simply because megapulses ARE medium range weapons. Want to make megapulses efective at short range aswell? fine. double their damage and tracking and quadruple their cap consumption so that is on par with the blasters. oh and read again, scorch provides 25% tracking nerf, not 75%. What are you talking about now? The argument was that the effective range leverage of an MP Armageddon is negligible, and to illustrate that I ran down how Conflag (and more so for MF) gets outdamaged by Null with about a 2-3km difference in effective ranges. Hence the mentioning of the 75% tracking nerf, as that's what Conflag gets and not Scorch. You do retain the ability to outrange to ~45-50k, with sniper level damage output. I'm not debating that, I'm saying it's not useful at all to have a 50km sniper with no speedmod (and more importantly, that you were dramatically understating a Megathrons range - loading AM and ignoring falloff does not give a representative picture of effective range). And that no advantage within ~20k exists versus the Megathron, as opposed to the ~5km you'd suggested.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.09.28 15:07:00 - [67] Edited by: Aramendel on 28/09/2006 15:10:09 Originally by: Grimpak they are not effective short range weapons since they are not short range weapons. they are med-range weapons. Again, mind to point me to where I said they are not med range weapons? Try actually reading posts you quote. Quote: and if you have a trouble in getting the target scrambled, well get some mates. Amarrian ships are NOT solo ships. their lack of flexibility prevents them from that. Was I saying pulse lasers only? Oh wait, no. It's pulse lasers AND ACs. So are minnie ships not solo ships too? As a sidenote, if you cannot get to the target with an AB and a MWD cripples your cap too much to be able to fire, get some mates to web it. To repeat myself, try actually reading posts you quote. All you are posting in this htread is either senseless drivel which has nothing to do what the other person wrote or something completely offtopic which has nothing to do with the actual thread. In short: trolling.

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