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Fallen Khanid King
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.03 00:01:52 -
[1] - Quote
Hi,
I would like to discuss the Medium Drones damage application on smaller targets, especially frigates.
Earlier today I tackled a Rail Vexor (which has NO bonuses to the tracking of drones).
This is some of the damage he did to me ; I was not webbed and had no MWD fitted so I was basically on the perfect position to avoid a larger weapon system damage. However, since it's drones, they were having almost no issues to track me.
http://i.imgur.com/8BRUnge.png
Even 180s autocannons (which I believe have the best tracking of all med sized turrets) would have trouble hitting an ABing frigate orbiting close. Now why, on top of having somewhat selectable damage, excellent projection, capless usage, why are drones being able to hit a small target like that so efficiently ?
Just to make it clear ; I don't mind the loss of my ship, it was a cheap tackle frigate, it's meant to die anyways (and we killed the Vexor, yay!). This is not me ranting cause I lost a ship. This is a legitimate question about game balance.
The way the weapon systems works in this game, as a small frigate you can avoid most of the damage from a bigger hull by outspeed his tracking, or in the case of heavy missiles by just keeping your speed up and your signature radius low.
I don't get why, on an unwebbed, ABing fast frigate, medium drones coming from an unbonused (in terms of tracking) hull, should hit that well their target. You already have light scout drones to do this job. Why would med drones can do the same job as light drones ? Imagine i wasn't fighting a Vexor but a VNI which has bonuses to drones tracking ? AND if I was webbed on top of that ? Then I would assume med drones would just hit me almost perfectly.
For any other weapon system, to hit a frigate orbiting close, you'd have to have the target dual webbed and/or having target painters for missiles, but why would you bother if you can just launch drones ?
What are you thoughts about this ?
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Atomeon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2015.02.03 02:07:26 -
[2] - Quote
He was using mixed Heavy , medium and light drones. You where unlucky got wrecked by its heavy drone and a med drone.
Maybe he was using omnidirectional tracking link? Well if you have the killmail and see what was at mid slots maybe we can see if had omni links. |
Fallen Khanid King
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.03 03:19:51 -
[3] - Quote
Atomeon wrote:He was using mixed Heavy , medium and light drones. You where unlucky got wrecked by its heavy drone and a med drone.
Maybe he was using omnidirectional tracking link? Well if you have the killmail and see what was at mid slots maybe we can see if had omni links.
His fit was this :
Highs :
4x 200mm Railguns II
Mids :
1x Experimental 10mn MWD
2x Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
1x Warp Disruptor II
Lows :
1x Pseudoelectron Containment Field
3x Drone Damage Amplifier II
1x Overdrive Injector System II
So he had no module improving the tracking of his drones. I was actually very surprised when I saw the killmail.
The screenshot I have posted was just part of the Logs though, overall his medium drones (the hammerheads) were pretty much almost hitting me everytime (grazes and hits, a few penetrates) ; the Heavy drones though, did struggle a bit to track me but they were still hitting grazes and glances off at times.
So even if the lucky wrecks hit obviously did play a huge role there, the med drones were still hitting me correctly, and again, i was NOT webbed, and my AB was on.
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
66
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Posted - 2015.02.03 04:15:26 -
[4] - Quote
All your KB shows mwd frigs as losses. Unless this is an alt, I might assume you had a shield buffer on that AB fit with a large sig bloom. Maybe during your orbit you had very small transversal against that Preator AND the Hammerhead, which got the wrecking hits. Something you don't see often... I wouldn't feel too bad about it. Unless you are not being completely honest and were just sitting still.
The log shows everything grazing, including your own 150mm (DD?), up until you got scram on a kiting fit (that had heavy, med, lights out?). I dunno, bro, I'm gonna say you derped and weren't moving. I happens. All the things had high tracking hit chance, again even your 150's, after the tackle attempt. A nice chunk too. Why don't you l;ink your fit? |
Fallen Khanid King
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.02.03 04:44:32 -
[5] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:All your KB shows mwd frigs as losses. Unless this is an alt, I might assume you had a shield buffer on that AB fit with a large sig bloom. Maybe during your orbit you had very small transversal against that Preator AND the Hammerhead, which got the wrecking hits. Something you don't see often... I wouldn't feel too bad about it. Unless you are not being completely honest and were just sitting still.
The log shows everything grazing, including your own 150mm (DD?), up until you got scram on a kiting fit (that had heavy, med, lights out?). I dunno, bro, I'm gonna say you derped and weren't moving. I happens. All the things had high tracking hit chance, again even your 150's, after the tackle attempt. A nice chunk too. Why don't you l;ink your fit?
It is an alt. Because reasons.
I was in a comet. Orbiting at 5km (hard to not move when you're using the "orbit" button). Had AB heated for half of the fight. . Fit was standard railgun comet with hull tank rigs, overdrive 1magstab dcu saar. So no big sig radius from shield tank.
Just test it out for yourself. Hop in a Vexor and ask for a corpie to get in any Frigate with an AB and see if your Hammerheads will hit him. They will most of the time. Hell, even his Preators were getting "glances off" and "grazes" at times.
But the point of the thread isn't really that much wether or not he got lucky to get those wrecks, it's to point out the fact that, in my opinion, medium (and to some extent, other heavier types of drones) have too much damage application on small targets. This is just an example but i'm sure as hell I'm not the only one who had that happened to him. And I do believe this is partly why drones are such in a good spot (I would dare say OP) right now.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8736
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Posted - 2015.02.03 10:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Hmm while you weren't blooming your Sig you're not actually tanking it either.
halos, drugs and links can drop that Sig down much much further.
That's assuming you have the room in your head for the implants
the alt (or a corpmate) for the links and
well worth it imo iv taken on a few vexors and come out ontop with my ishkur
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Lloyd Roses
820
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Posted - 2015.02.03 11:14:56 -
[7] - Quote
Drones were altered to also shoot while approaching. SO earlier, drones around you would trail to far behind and then miss you constantly even though they had low transversal against you. THese days, drones got 4+km optimal and falloff, meaning that if you're in a tight 500m orbit, you're always in rage for drones, and they easily can track you.
It's not just the meds, heavies - esp. praetors/zerkers - hit AB frigs quite easily for massive damage.
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
951
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 12:50:17 -
[8] - Quote
You were probably orbiting at a speed where the drones had little to no radial velocity (aka were flying right behind you shooting). |
ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
575
|
Posted - 2015.02.03 19:27:22 -
[9] - Quote
Drones have the disadvantage of being destroyable, and also have to mwd to target and have travel time, etc. if med drones were statisticaly similar to 180mm ACs what would be the point in taking the disadvantages of the weapon system?
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
837
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Posted - 2015.02.03 20:17:01 -
[10] - Quote
when you orbit a ship it does not quaranteed that you have transversal to drones |
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Arla Sarain
271
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Posted - 2015.02.03 20:31:10 -
[11] - Quote
"Drones are fine" - said every drone user ever.
Meanwhile missile plebs have to use powergrid and CPU, have reload time, and never heard of neutralisers and NOSs.
Turret users were lost to history unless they were the legendary FN Comets.
And thats the end of the story. The moral is that drones are destructible. You just choose not to destroy them because you are way too smart for this game.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
32401
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Posted - 2015.02.03 23:02:19 -
[12] - Quote
It's 2 shots, 3 if you include the penetrate.
That's not really a great sample size to be drawing conclusions from. There are some many things that could have occurred and using the orbit function doesn't guarantee good transversal to his drones.
That's not saying you are wrong. Just that no reliable conclusion can be drawn from that data.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Dieterlin
Reckless-Endangerment
44
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Posted - 2015.02.04 05:15:44 -
[13] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:If med drones were statisticaly similar to 180mm ACs what would be the point in taking the disadvantages of the weapon system?
Being able to switch weapon sizes in the middle of a fight, immune to every variety of EWAR, tracking independent of your hull's motion, no fitting requirements or cap use...
Yeah, there are a couple reasons. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
3675
|
Posted - 2015.02.04 14:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Just ask the master.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Arla Sarain
271
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Posted - 2015.02.04 15:33:46 -
[15] - Quote
Don't get welped by drones.
Stand still and get welped by medium gun alpha instead! |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
306
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 17:35:12 -
[16] - Quote
Bro, heavy drones track AB 1800ms 32sig armor interceptors orbiting at 1500m.
Yes drones are overpowered, yes CCP does not care, yes most forum people think they are balanced.
Its hilarious, really. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
306
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 17:39:24 -
[17] - Quote
Dieterlin wrote:ValentinaDLM wrote:If med drones were statisticaly similar to 180mm ACs what would be the point in taking the disadvantages of the weapon system?
Being able to switch weapon sizes in the middle of a fight, immune to every variety of EWAR, tracking independent of your hull's motion, no fitting requirements or cap use... Yeah, there are a couple reasons.
Shhhhh..... The drone fanboy zombies might hear you...... |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
959
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 20:19:51 -
[18] - Quote
your butt must hurt a lot |
ValentinaDLM
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
577
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 20:57:22 -
[19] - Quote
mmm, these are very tasty tears that remind me so much of a time when Hurricanes and Rifters were found everywhere.
I don't think drone are OP. If you look at my Killboard it is clear I do use them, but I also use every other weapon system too because they are all good. Maybe not at every role, but they are all good. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
306
|
Posted - 2015.02.05 21:38:01 -
[20] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote:mmm, these are very tasty tears that remind me so much of a time when Hurricanes and Rifters were found everywhere.
I don't think drone are OP. If you look at my Killboard it is clear I do use them, but I also use every other weapon system too because they are all good. Maybe not at every role, but they are all good.
They are mostly good depending on situations, but drones are almost always great AND offer immense versatility with immunity to all ewar and zero fitting or cap costs. |
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Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
68
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Posted - 2015.02.05 21:39:53 -
[21] - Quote
Phaade wrote:ValentinaDLM wrote:mmm, these are very tasty tears that remind me so much of a time when Hurricanes and Rifters were found everywhere.
I don't think drone are OP. If you look at my Killboard it is clear I do use them, but I also use every other weapon system too because they are all good. Maybe not at every role, but they are all good. They are mostly good depending on situations, but drones are almost always great AND offer immense versatility with immunity to all ewar and zero fitting or cap costs.
Bro... You can jamm drones..
they also require bandwidth as fitting, which is considered in the balance of the rest of the ship. |
Arla Sarain
274
|
Posted - 2015.02.06 12:54:41 -
[22] - Quote
Jam all the drones
using your 12 midslot ship.
You don't think it's odd to use bandwidth as a balancing mechanic when bandwidth is only a measure of how many drones can be used and nothing else?
I mean, you brick tank drone ships as your CPU/PG permits, then bandwidth gives you extra leeway and allows you to put stuff that deals damage practically free of charge. (c) Triple tanking Tristans.
Or fit utility into what is essentially 2-4 utility highs (c) Every Drone ship that just goes with neuts instead of guns.
Or fit oversized modules without thinking too hard about ta... Actually you fit oversized modules and decent tank to boot. (c) 100MN Ishtars.
Bandwidth and how it's used as a balance mechanic to keep drone ships in check looks like its failing mad. If you insist on insulting someones' capability to bring the "right ship for the right situation", as in bring a similar thing but with better modules, please use something that does not contain "Butthurt" as it is so overly predictable by now. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
Spaceship Bebop
455
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Posted - 2015.02.06 17:04:02 -
[23] - Quote
That is some grade A Caldari centric why ain't my missile supreme anymore and frog drones are better whaaaa whinage right there.
And you even dared to pretend that only drone boats can afford to fit multiple active repping modules, or oversized afterburners.
Great thread \m/ O_o \m/
CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting-áoff button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.
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Arla Sarain
276
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Posted - 2015.02.06 17:48:54 -
[24] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:That is some grade A Caldari centric why ain't my missile supreme anymore and frog drones are better whaaaa whinage right there.
Are we taking turns? Does CCP just roll a dice or something?
Why is it Caldari centric? I'm not RP. Is it because I mentioned missiles? Should I mention turrets lel?
Deacon Abox wrote:And you even dared to pretend that only drone boats can afford to fit multiple active repping modules, or oversized afterburners.
Great thread \m/ O_o \m/
I haven't mentioned a thing about reppers.
I only dared to mention the complete lack of needing half a thousand PG to fit guns allowing effortless cramming of oversized ABs and tank.
Must be some grade A drone bias bullocks in the air messing with your interpretation. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
69
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Posted - 2015.02.06 17:57:17 -
[25] - Quote
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27174717
Bring mwd, long point, pin target down and make drones stop-n-chase
Use your web, kill drones
Not rocket science |
Nalia White
Tencus
68
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:51:39 -
[26] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27174717
Bring mwd, long point, pin target down and make drones stop-n-chase
Use your web, kill drones
Not rocket science
this just shows how to kill a drone boat with 3 times the numbers though  |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
308
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:54:14 -
[27] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:That is some grade A Caldari centric why ain't my missile supreme anymore and frog drones are better whaaaa whinage right there.
And you even dared to pretend that only drone boats can afford to fit multiple active repping modules, or oversized afterburners.
Great thread \m/ O_o \m/
If you don't see the merit of the points brought up by that post.....God help you.
I certainly can't.
Also, please explain heavy missiles to me. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
308
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Posted - 2015.02.07 20:55:01 -
[28] - Quote
Arla Sarain wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:That is some grade A Caldari centric why ain't my missile supreme anymore and frog drones are better whaaaa whinage right there.
Are we taking turns? Does CCP just roll a dice or something? Why is it Caldari centric? I'm not RP. Is it because I mentioned missiles? Should I mention turrets lel? Deacon Abox wrote:And you even dared to pretend that only drone boats can afford to fit multiple active repping modules, or oversized afterburners.
Great thread \m/ O_o \m/ I haven't mentioned a thing about reppers. I only dared to mention the complete lack of needing half a thousand PG to fit guns allowing effortless cramming of oversized ABs and tank. Must be some grade A drone bias bullocks in the air messing with your interpretation.
He's either a troll, or really, really stupid...
I'll add that he is a frog. Self serving agenda at it's finest. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems
Templis CALSF
308
|
Posted - 2015.02.07 20:56:45 -
[29] - Quote
Oreb Wing wrote:http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=27174717
Bring mwd, long point, pin target down and make drones stop-n-chase
Use your web, kill drones
Not rocket science
...you killed a worm with 2 comets and an incursus....
and then you come to the forums and try to use that an example for how drones are balanced.....
What?
You realize you brought 7 drones of your own to the fight?
Good Lord. |
Oreb Wing
Black Fox Marauders
Spaceship Bebop
70
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Posted - 2015.02.07 23:38:37 -
[30] - Quote
1)We killed a great fitted and piloted Worm without any losses. 2)Our ships together don't equal the cost of that Worm. 3)shut up, you weren't there. I pulled initial point on him and solo'd his drones. The rest pretty much whored, with the blaster Comet nearly dying to the rocket fire. On top of that, it is not my only Worm kill, just the most recent. List another frig that does close combat rails better than a Comet to fight this way. gtfo |
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