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The History of Piracy in Eve - (Warning Lengthy Read)

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sutty	Posted - 2003.10.27 11:07:00 - [121] wooooooooooo the only time you smashed us was when you was using the massive damage mods and we didn't know about it yet. :D but it was still good, and I wouldn't call two omens smashed, and if it wasn't for two of your guys docking and undocking in the middle of the fight it would of been slightly different.
Slinky Redfoot	Posted - 2003.10.27 11:52:00 - [122] Sticky this please! Best post i've read in ages, hats off to Jade. Got Banana?
Magusa	Posted - 2003.10.27 11:58:00 - [123] Very nice post! Magusa: PvP fan and Alliance Member
Sybylle	Posted - 2003.10.27 12:07:00 - [124] As always Jade, your post are clear, complete and objective. A really great job! Have you still got time to play? Posting such threads is time-eating I only hope dev will look at that and consider it as it should be : the next game balancing. All you say was already pointed out in different posts...You made a summary of what Eve is missing to keep players on. Dev, please...Make some pressure on CCP to implement that! This is what Eve needs, and what we all need. If it's not CCP politic's, well, it should be. (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Cochise	Posted - 2003.10.27 12:26:00 - [125] An absolute brilliant post Jade. Thanks for taking the time to write this. I also hope the Devs read it and see some light. Its just a matter of too many chiefs and not enough indians.
tigress	Posted - 2003.10.27 12:32:00 - [126] Well, the easy solution to both Tank CEO's problems and everybody elses is: player owned property. May it be stations, may it be mobile refineries. It doesnt matter, when we have those tools we will practically live in 0.0 space. (Which most of us do already btw). Eve is by far not to hard fpr pirates per say, but for pvp'ers. The fleeing business is far to easy to achive. And the lag-issue is even worse - but I severly hope they read this post and gain knowledge from it. I don't wanna see another "TomB> I wasn't aware of that...". In CSM's to come! Good post btw Jade :). --
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.10.27 14:13:00 - [127] Quote: Whoo hoo!!! Something I wrote got used as a reference. Thank you Torik, I have now credited your name in the text. ;) JF Public Forum
Albar Gray	Posted - 2003.10.27 15:18:00 - [128] Just like to say it's a great post Jade Mainly I think you're right about the need for a graded response to piracy. Though personally I would like something a little more complex. Who :Concorde and / or empire Where : Gates, stations, belts etc. When : Immediate, 1 minute etc. How Much : Battle fleet to frigate patrol Also this type of response would mean that empire forces could respond when a person with a positive empire rating is attacked, even though concorde won't because he has a negative sec rating. This kind of thing might get a little confusing for some players however Well that's my two stones worth, cause we don't have cents here. ----------------------------------------------- IÆm not schizophrenic... ThatÆs my alt
Pychian Vanervi	Posted - 2003.10.27 15:21:00 - [129] I have to reply to this even though it has recieved massive praise. I have not read a more informative post since starting Eve and to top it off agreed with pretty much ever word and opinion. If your ideas on sec ratings and laws were to be inplimented the Eve universe would be even more enjoyable and diverse than it already is. ----------------------------- It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
Varia	Posted - 2003.10.27 16:50:00 - [130] Edited by: Varia on 27/10/2003 16:54:36 Edited by: Varia on 27/10/2003 16:53:16 Very nice Post Jade, It's refreshing to read something that is nicely written well thought out and accurate. Which seems lacking on these boards recently. Varia A Survivor Women that strive to equal men lack ambition.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.10.27 18:58:00 - [131] Sybylle, Quote: Have you still got time to play? Posting such threads is time-eating Being an eve-trader leaves a lot time for writing and thinking ... lots of long trips and in windowed mode you can have the forum dialogue out of the way of the main display. Breaks the monotony of making money ;) Only time it ever killed me was when I was talking to a TTi guy during the war while his mate Renox nuked my beloved bestower ... and that really hurt! Love and peace JF Public Forum
Athren Soulsteal	Posted - 2003.10.27 19:51:00 - [132] Jade you left out one major listing or actually tried to candy coat it and sell it as Softcore.. that the PKer. (though they love to hide behind the pirate flag they are not) These players have no intrest it Player Vrs Player and would be happy if they simply had a BFG and actually at first they did. For those of you that do not know the refrence the BFG was a gun that all you had to do was pull the triger and everything on the screen died. Game companies started putting BFGs in games to allow little kids to play with the big boys by giving the kids an instant win device. No self respecting PVP would ever use any device (weapon, item or technique) that resembles a BFG. The problem with your post is that you use PVP and have attached it where there is and never was any PVP action. The topic is about pirate so I will bypass the hundreds of non-combat PVP action in the game and yes I have had good PVP action with pirate groups. (usally at planets, moons and roid fields) You do a diservice to the real PVPs by grouping the Pkers with the Pirats. This is as insulting as grouping an aimbot/wallhacking PKer with true CS PVPers or saying that a player using godmode code to instkill is the same as two players that leveled their avatars natually dueling. also you left out: True Carebears, these are players that have nothing to prove so are happy playing and have a live and let live attitude until a "baddy" gets their attention in which case the True Carebear will break out a 50 gal drum of whoop butt and pour it all over the baddy. The True Carebears always win so they usally ignore everyone else till someone had demanded a spanking. Apply PVP to the true pirates only(remove the refrence from the rest) and add the true carebear refrence to you post and then you will have a relistic view of eve.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.10.27 21:32:00 - [133] Athren Soulsteal, I take some of your points, but others I disagree with. I think the art of combat in a political simulator like Eve is sometimes brutal and uncompromising and victories can feel like BFG rendered mayhem. But this is sometimes the nature of the beast; its so in realistic real world warfare also. Large strategic planning calls for results and victories not for noble single combat and gladatorial contests. If I chose to engage my enemies in Eve then I want a body count; not a heroic saga of the bright clash of arms and romance. Thus achieving these objectives can certainly fall into your "PK" category. But I think that is again, the nature of the beast. Eve simulates a make-believe starfarering economy and we play starship captains with practical immortality. Often its about the wider war and not the joy of balanced single combat. Of course sometimes there are exceptions and thats why we treasure them. My Armaggeddon vs Megathron fight vs Cloud Alexander was the closest thing I have had to a balanced engagement and it was a quite beautiful to fight. End of the day I think your "PK" tag is too emotive to be useful. "PK" = "Party Killer" in the minds of most, and is a derogative term. I think there is no proof or reason to think that designers intended "PVP" to be consensual and engineered conflict between equals. Love and peace JF Public Forum
Radium Rare	Posted - 2003.10.28 00:57:00 - [134] very good stuff here... ----------------------------------------------- Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design
Serge	Posted - 2003.10.28 14:10:00 - [135] I too, agree: very good post, Jade! Since I¦m in game since approx 10 days after launch I¦ve witnessed more or less all of this. I have to agree to your findings and even to your categories of players inside EVE atm. But û I¦d like to have at least one major point added into the current PvP system. You were talking about PvP û about ppl who engage in, evade, force others to PvP! Because thatÆs the major part of pirating and carbear-life: to PvP or not! Ok, what I want to adress is the following: I guess everyone who was ever engaged in PvP can only agree with me, that all combat against other players is very biased atm. PvP is that strongly in favor for the agressor that it simply is no more fun! Imagine you doin the pirate part, goin to a system of your choice and start to kill passer-bys. You will have the advantage because initially none is aware of you but enters the point of no return when facing the typical overwhelming pirate force like 2 BS vs an indy. You are dead. That simple. Now comes the reaction: if the pirating happens in 0.0 and in alliance space then alliance military comes trying to take out the rats. What happens next is what annoys a load of ppl in 0.0 space atm: Pirates warp to their pre-bookmarked spots in mid-space, make insta-jumping through systems, simply log off and then login all at the same time and spot thus givin an overwhelming power-advantage. The point is that the agressor is at a HUGE advantage since tracking and hunting of enemies is that near to impossible that it simply hurts! So what can the ppl do that want to evade PvP with the current game mechanics? That is the question that I feel is long overdue! Comments such as better tracking devices coming into game (when??? 2 months, 3 months?) are really not very helpfully at this very time! It was already suggested to stay out of 0.0 space till the overwhelming odds for aggressors are leveled .. but, what fun is this? For both attackers/agressors and defenders? This is no solution but a means to drive out the Carebears! But it could make for a funny political map: all 0.0 space claimed by several ôpirate corpsö but homing noone. *********************************************** ... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.10.28 14:18:00 - [136] I think the combination of better tracking systems to eradicate mid-warp hiding ... and a no docking rule in empire space for very bad boys (neg sec based on rating) would make things an awful lot more interesting. Just think of the fun that -10's would have trying to get back to 0.0 on the run from pursuers with no docking and no safe BM's. That would be a whole new part of the game. Nobody said piracy was all about killing merchant shipping ... quite a lot of time was traditionally spent running away from the navy after all. JF Public Forum
Dukath	Posted - 2003.10.28 14:23:00 - [137] There is a different problem. pvp is limited to a couple of situations. 1) both sides 'agree' to fight -> great fun, nice battles, can be laggy 2) only one side wants to fight. a) the aggressor gets really lucky and can scramble the victim -> dead victim b) 85% of the cases: the victim can use the invulnerability timer and the fact that once your warp drive is active you can't be locked anymore to his advantage and can escape, uses instajump/instadock bookmarks, puts on all shield hardeners and logs off before his ship can get destroyed, or warps to a safe spot and logs off. The result is that either you surprise the victim and kill him before he has a chance to do anything or he gets away. there is simply no middle way. I'm sure that once the middle way will be possible, either by changing the game mechanics, removing lag and or both that pvp will be much more fun. carebears might even stop whining if they get killed in stead of massacred before they could even see what was happening.
N0sferathu	Posted - 2003.10.28 15:06:00 - [138] one word, great.. I fall under neutral survivor (ATM), but when i`ve a bs to spare i will go for pvp absolutly. Loved the trill of the championship. Lost but was great anyway.
The Wretch	Posted - 2003.10.28 16:40:00 - [139] Just to add: First major pirate corp. vs. normal corp. in retail was the war between Federation of Assassins (out of business) and TTI (reformed) over a destroyed indy ship. This resulted in a truce. The first large anti-pirate war took place in Obe against the now defunt Mega corporation. The Wretch Cyberdyne Systems CEO
Deadmetal	Posted - 2003.10.28 17:03:00 - [140] once again Jade has succinctly (if at great length) hit the proverbial Nails right on the head.. We NEED pirates.. they make life dangerous... and NPC rats are simply fodder for minimal isk... but we need realistic checks and balances. not knee jerk reactions to mass complaints due to UberBoob ganking tactics that threaten CCP's wallet. This game could be great.. if only CCP would desist from this apparent orgy of "Rectal Crainial Inversion"... Ah well.. we can only hope... "Human Nature - If someone put a big red button in a remote mountain cave with a sign on it 'End of the world button!! Do not push!!.. the paint wouldn't have a chance to dry."
Rizmordan Hillgotlieb	Posted - 2003.10.28 19:29:00 - [141] Read all 7 dang pages. I'm glad I can put myself and my corp into a category. As a corp we are "Intermediates" - quietly building and mining in "secure" empire space. I am a "Survivor" player - going out 65 jumps into 0.0 to rat farm 10k-40k rats for a week at a time. I use the maps, check out each player that comes along, I avoid chatting in local, etc. No need to attract attention to myself. I'm in 0.0 for a reason. Posting for Numbnutz
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.10.29 15:02:00 - [142] Wretch m'dear, (or indeed anyone that remembers the war in Obe vs M3G4) Quote: The first large anti-pirate war took place in Obe against the now defunt Mega corporation. Can I ask what kind of ships and tactics were used in this engagement? Any thoughts on how that fight helped the game to evolve into what it has become? PS ... I vaguely remember the Wretch now you mention it in the names thread ... 2/5 hardass demon or something that stopped attackers untapping? JF Public Forum
Draka	Posted - 2003.10.29 21:24:00 - [143] Edited by: Draka on 29/10/2003 21:33:45 I am a slightly different category - the Grognard or wargamer. What I thought EVE would be was the following: 1) Core - Each Empire was defined with a core area, highly patrolled and "safe" by the military and security services of that Empire. Said core areas were the home systems, regional political centers, the routes between them and the major internal trading routes that the economy of the area depended on. Stations belonging to a government, like the Republic Fleet Logistical Support stations (Fleet bases) would not allow anyone not of a certain level of standing TO THAT EMPIRE to dock. It was presumed that the only way to purchase anything above low level Frigates would be to dock at such stations. The same for larger weapons, etc. Core areas are the responsibility of the owning Empire, and would have little to no CONCORD presence. I foresaw a negative CONCORD Security rating being to a large extent ignored, until an aggressive action was started - then the perp would be hounded to death or beyond the borders - with the Empire forces remembering the perp over a LENGTHY period - i.e., log off, wait a day and they STILL remember and atack ya when ya log on! 2) Border areas - these were the potential hotspots between the Empires, where their territory met. Heavy CONCORD presense here, with both sides of the border having security forces inspecting incoming ships, any heavily armed ship without a good standing with the Empire not being allowed to Jump into that Empire. This is where the Black Market skills would have had a good use, to try and circumvent those patrols and restrictions. Systems like Odatrik fit this. with three Republic Fleets based one Jump away in Amamake and heavy military presence in the entire constellation. Fart and they are all over ya. 3) Interior space - the areas inside the Empires not classed as above. In these, the distance from possibly responding forces and the relative importance of the stations will lead to a graduated response reaction time. The larger, more important systems will have a quicker reaction time, and a more frequent patrol through them. Lesser systems, especially ones with no stations, will be a free-for-all, with a low chance of a random patrol from security forces, who will then react to problems including calling in reinforcements. Attacks here will lower your standing versus the owning Empire faction - not an overall Security Standing. 4) Everywhere else - open season. No CONCORD, no Empire forces - live or die by yer own efforts. Some trade routes here will be patrolled by CONCORD - and any reports of "illegal" activites wil effect yer CONCORD standing. Originally there were two additional ideas: 1) That to obtain anything that is race specific, ya had to travel to the Empire to get it. No purchasing of Amarr ships in Minmatar space. Want Hybrid technology - waepons, Damage Mods, etc? Go to Gallente/Caldari space. Or purchase it from the PC Merchant who risked all to bring it to ya - at a good mark-up to compensate fer the risk. 2) Space is BIG. Aside from the heavily inspected and guarded border zones, ya had to go out to the surrounding unclaimed spaces to get the best ores, trade between Empires for forbidden stuff, all that. And there was no such thing as Highways - it took time and sweat to get anywhere. In THAT environment, piracy has a true value. It also has a place in which to thrive. Note that the only places a full-on pirate needs to fear is the border crossings and the core areas, IF his piracy was against the citizens of that Empire. I also would like to see the NPCs be normal ships - to include normal restrictions on Cargo Hold space, skill sets as to the ability to use the weapons of thier load-out, the whole nine yards. This environment would allow those wishing to indulge in normal economical activity to do thier thing, while those wishing to do better are forced to run a risk in doing so. Edit: Add that for these purposes, NPC Pirate corporations act the same as Empires at a lesser level - Sansha stations will either not let ya dock, or charge Docking Fees according to yer (and yer Corporation's) Standing towards them. Kill too many - go elsewhere. This is also where PC pirates sell their loot at a lower return (fences usually only give 10% value - we kin be a bit more generous in EVE), and purchase ships/weapons/supplies. Wanna bet those black market things cost a lot more than in Empire space? CEO The Cinnaban Order "Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic"
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.11.06 01:56:00 - [144] With all the 3 month old posts being bumped for the sole reason of trolling I think its worth bumping one that actually deserves being bumped. Thanx again Jade, great post.
Mangold	Posted - 2003.11.08 11:49:00 - [145] I'm impressed. Well Done!
Draka	Posted - 2003.11.09 20:39:00 - [146] Shameless update for those who haven't read this yet .... CEO The Cinnaban Order "Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic"
Vita Grando'II	Posted - 2003.11.22 17:50:00 - [147] Yep good story and points. But I want to add 1 thing. I would like to see that clone thing be more realistic. It now is too easy to get killed and be up and running again without any real damage. It now is unlikely you will ever loose a skillpoint or 2. In Beta we we could loose all of it. (ok by a server crash :D) but somehow it made the adrenaline boil more than it does now. What I mean to say is; There is no real penalty in getting shot in this game. --
Draka	Posted - 2003.11.23 21:40:00 - [148] Once more for the gipper .... CEO The Cinnaban Order "Dedicated to a Free Minmatar Republic"
HitGirl	Posted - 2003.11.23 22:10:00 - [149] Hrm deppends on what mood im in, but Hardcore Pirate or PVP pirate:) Chief Executive Officer Inferno Corp: Where we are ultimate Destruction will follow
Playmate Bunny	Posted - 2003.11.24 12:37:00 - [150] Quote: i) Hardcore pirates, these guys just get on with pirating, sometimes they wreck and loot, sometimes they hold up, sometimes they hunt, sometimes they gate camp. They arenÆt there for your amusement; they are there to make money. They also tend not to whine about the game rules; they just get on with it. I would say Jokers are pretty much the epitome of this type of pirate. Quote: = [SMUG] a real Pirate corp. ------------ Noone is safe from my shots, I like shooting at stuff, If you don't want too get shot at, you better stay the hell out of my sight

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