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why do players stay in npc corps?

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Leannor Caldari Provisions Caldari State 132	Posted - 2015.03.16 13:12:05 - [391] - Quote Most people who leave EVE in the first few weeks / months of their time, will be the type who don't like the game or don't have time. It's quitye logical to expect that most of these will be those who haven't progressed out of the NPC corps 'because' of these very reasons. That in itself does not mean there's anything wrong with NPC corps. However, what it does mean, is that you (as a business) have a window of opportunity to win over people into the game when they're in NPC. And maybe NPC corps can be changed to better 'sell' to the game to new comers than they do now. The points are subtly different. Personally I think most 'leaverr' people join EVE expecting WOW in space, or COD in spaceships, or something equally banal, and arrive, find that it is actually far more complex and engrossed than they realise and quit after a short attempt and trying to copy their normal gameplay and become bored. Because they've not really engaged with the game, they haven;'t left NPC, and consequently they're one of those statistical NPC Leavers. THis has nothing to do with NPC corps. Perosnally, EVE is better off without them. Player losses from non-rookie NPC corps is a different matter though. Many will drop from a player corp, and then quit the game. And thus they also add to the NPC leavers statistic. There are so many genuine non-NPC related reasons for leaving EVE 'via' the NPC corps, that a significant correlation between the two is probably not likely to be achived. Remeber, stats are spun according to the pararmeters that are chosen to be included and excluded. "Lykouleon wrote: STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Sibyyl Gallente Federation 23964	Posted - 2015.03.16 13:12:36 - [392] - Quote Niobe Song wrote: But luckily I had randomly chosen CAS when I created my first character and the people there seemed helpful and friendly. They actually do things together. They help out. They have mining groups, a null sec group that teaches noobies to pvp and helps them get jump clones and takes them on roams, a wormhole group, incursion group, a mission running group. Pretty much most of the things you can do in Eve are covered. CAS is in many respects like a PC corp. It is that way because a few people (like Boiglio) have put in an enormous amount of effort to create resources and activities. You can't compare CAS to other NPC corps. There is no comparison whatsoever. CAS is exceptional in that regard, and other NPC corps are silent as the grave and functionally unsocial and inactive. This is the standard experience. It is no surprise that players hang out in these, wardec immune and safe and warm most certainly, but they play the game alone and are at the greatest statistical risk of quitting. #afkleadership -óß¦ªß¦ç-ó
Leannor Caldari Provisions Caldari State 132	Posted - 2015.03.16 13:15:29 - [393] - Quote Sibyyl wrote: Niobe Song wrote: But luckily I had randomly chosen CAS when I created my first character and the people there seemed helpful and friendly. They actually do things together. They help out. They have mining groups, a null sec group that teaches noobies to pvp and helps them get jump clones and takes them on roams, a wormhole group, incursion group, a mission running group. Pretty much most of the things you can do in Eve are covered. CAS is in many respects like a PC corp. It is that way because a few people (like Boiglio) have put in an enormous amount of effort to create resources and activities. You can't compare CAS to other NPC corps. There is no comparison whatsoever. CAS is exceptional in that regard, and other NPC corps are silent as the grave and functionally unsocial and inactive. This is the standard experience. It is no surprise that players hang out in these, wardec immune and safe and warm most certainly, but they play the game alone and are at the greatest statistical risk of quitting. Just following that logic. People like warm and cosy, so they stay in the corp. If you then force them into something that's not what they like (ie not warm and cosy) I would think they're at much greater risk of leaving - as suddenly they're not in something they like. (Clearly there are exceptions, and a few will discover the riches of risk and rewrd, but that's probably a tiny minoiryt). "Lykouleon wrote: STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Sibyyl Gallente Federation 23966	Posted - 2015.03.16 13:22:57 - [394] - Quote I think it's a balance. Pushing people into the deep end may cause them to panic and quit. Leaving them perpetually in the shallow end will also bore them and they will leave. NPC corps are without a doubt the boring shallow end. People will argue from the point of exceptions (veterans hanging out in an NPC corp having oodles of fun), but the exceptions don't contribute much in a discussion about trends (data which CCP has shared with us). #afkleadership -óß¦ªß¦ç-ó
Diggle Dirker University of Caille Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.03.16 13:24:20 - [395] - Quote I play EVE to relax. For me, relaxation means doing what I want with no obligations to others. I've been in player corps that say they're relaxed and let you do what you want, but then it soon becomes clear there's still a certain level of expectation that you'll fulfill various obligations. I don't want to be made to feel bad just because I choose what to do with my own time, and so I leave and go back to the NPC corp where nobody has any expectations of me.
Prince Kobol 2478	Posted - 2015.03.16 15:08:04 - [396] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it: I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back. What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at. And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets. You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play
Nick Bete The Scope Gallente Federation 316	Posted - 2015.03.16 15:24:52 - [397] - Quote Scipio Artelius wrote: Nick Bete wrote: ICBM launch Jeez mate. I'd say take a chill pill and relax, but I wouldn't be so presumptive. No one's trying to tell anyone here what to do. I think we probably all value our freedom of choice and the discussion isn't about limiting anyone's. It's just a general chat about reasons people stay in npc corps. You might want to tell that to certain other posters who've called those of us who choose to stay in NPC corps cowards, risk averse, immature, not hardcore enough, petty facists, etc.
Mikael Menethil Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2015.03.16 15:35:41 - [398] - Quote Because wardecs. These mechanics are revolutionizing the MMO scene, attracting many new players and keeping others active. Many future MMOs will have it, they're the epitome of sandbox gaming.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 171	Posted - 2015.03.16 16:25:44 - [399] - Quote Nick Bete wrote: Scipio Artelius wrote: Nick Bete wrote: ICBM launch Jeez mate. I'd say take a chill pill and relax, but I wouldn't be so presumptive. No one's trying to tell anyone here what to do. I think we probably all value our freedom of choice and the discussion isn't about limiting anyone's. It's just a general chat about reasons people stay in npc corps. You might want to tell that to certain other posters who've called those of us who choose to stay in NPC corps cowards, risk averse, immature, not hardcore enough, petty facists, etc. This thread still exists? Those NPC haters are mad because they are surrounded by blues in their big alliances, or they never left highsec and are addicted to shoot easy prey. I'm my own NPC alt.
Leannor Caldari Provisions Caldari State 133	Posted - 2015.03.16 16:33:13 - [400] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it: I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back. What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at. And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets. You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play actually, he's not. He's telling them how he is going to play, and ... well, yeah, they might be impacted by it. But he's not telling them to do or not do anything specific about it. "Lykouleon wrote: STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"

Leannor Caldari Provisions Caldari State 133	Posted - 2015.03.16 16:35:30 - [401] - Quote Sibyyl wrote: I think it's a balance. Pushing people into the deep end may cause them to panic and quit. Leaving them perpetually in the shallow end will also bore them and they will leave. NPC corps are without a doubt the boring shallow end. People will argue from the point of exceptions (veterans hanging out in an NPC corp having oodles of fun), but the exceptions don't contribute much in a discussion about trends (data which CCP has shared with us). agreed, ... but, also bare in mind. One mans gristle, is another mans meat. What you might find boring, others might find reassuring and good (and even interesting). It is swings and roundabouts. "Lykouleon wrote: STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
Kaarous Aldurald Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE. 12149	Posted - 2015.03.16 22:12:58 - [402] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it: I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back. What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at. And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets. You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play Nope. What I'm asking is that NPC corps not be the most viable choice for almost everything in highsec. You know, so that cooperative play is incentivized, since CCP has told us that solo PvE playstyle hurt retention. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Syn Shi School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 143	Posted - 2015.03.16 22:35:28 - [403] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Prince Kobol wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it: I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back. What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at. And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets. You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play Nope. What I'm asking is that NPC corps not be the most viable choice for almost everything in highsec. You know, so that cooperative play is incentivized, since CCP has told us that solo PvE playstyle hurt retention. Wrong, you just want to grief new players and pad you kill board.
Niobe Song Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 19	Posted - 2015.03.16 22:53:16 - [404] - Quote Every time the CODE terrorist guy acts like he is worried about player retention I giggle.
IbanezLaney The Church of Awesome Heiian Conglomerate 1394	Posted - 2015.03.16 23:17:14 - [405] - Quote Eldhih wrote: Prior to DNS, my experience of player corporations is negative. Went from so called pvp corp to pvp corp, that ended up soling faction war or hisec mining for x weeks. The problem from my point of view is accountability. Players need the ability to comment on a corp they leave to warn future would be recruits. Problem with that is - Not everyone will gel with a group. Example: We might find 1 in 3 people who join suit the corp culture. So 2 will leave not having really gotten into things/enjoying it while 1 has a great time and stays. So the only comments that would be left would be from the 2 who didnt click with the corp. The people who stay are not going to be represented with your idea. It takes time to find a corp that suits. You need to try a few before you find a home where you will fit in. https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 859	Posted - 2015.03.16 23:21:20 - [406] - Quote Niobe Song wrote: Every time the CODE terrorist guy acts like he is worried about player retention I giggle. I have a similar reaction when someone mentions CCP and player retention. When you wait 12 years, it feels more like a spider clinging to the edge of a toilet bowl.
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 65	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:02:55 - [407] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Eli Stan wrote: If these NPC players chat with but do not perform activities with other players of the same corp, it is because that's how they have chosen to play the game, not because they are unable to. Force or incent them into moving into player corps, and they still will chat with but will not perform activities with other players of the same corp - and in your theory will be just as likely to quit the game as if they were still in an NPC corp. CAS members, I know, get together to actually do stuff all the time. Out of all the NPC corps in game, you know a few that do stuff together. Not intending to be rude, but that's a ** argument. I can't remember the name it, a logical fallacy? Something like that. And I do mean I'm not meaning to be rude. =\ It's just that just because YOU know people that do stuff out of the 500 or so per NPC corp, doesn't mean they ALL do something. "A+B doesn't = K" Thats the type of logic your using. "I know people who work together in NPC corps therefor there must be more people that do stuff in NPC corps. " You see what I mean? CCP has proven that NPC corps have the LOWEST retention rates. NPC corps ARE a problem. And they need to be fixed. The statistic have proven this. Arguing that it's not the problem is biased as again, there are literally statistics to prove, are at the least point to, NPC corps being a ** area of the game that the majority of people quit. Perhaps I didn't explain my self well enough, because you're saying I said something I didn't actually say. (Or perhaps I could accuse you of using the logical fallacy called a straw-man argument? :) ) My apologies if so, and I'll try to explain more clearly. I'm not at all saying that "they ALL do something." I'm saying that my belief is being in an NPC corp does not cause people to not do stuff together. I'm saying that my belief is being in an NPC corp does not cause people to quit EVE. Players can be, and are, social in NPC corps. Players can be, and are, social in player corps. People who quit EVE while they are in an NPC corp would, I bet, still quit EVE while they are in a player corp. (Except they'd likely get kicked and end up in an NPC corp and be tallied as an NPC corp member anyway, it seems.) Take every single person who's ever tried EVE but quit, never having been in a player corp, and if they had been forced/incented into joining a player corp before quitting and I bet hardly any of them would have stuck around anyway. Take all the people who have stuck with EVE in an NPC corp and force/incent them into joining a player corp, and I bet a fair number of them will quit EVE. Net result for CCP would be, in my mind, a loss of playerbase. YMMV. -shrug-
Eli Stan Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 65	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:06:04 - [408] - Quote By the way, have CCP ever posted the detailed stats on accounts that weren't renewed? With info on account age and corp history for each? Or is this based on a passing comment in a blog or something along the lines of "most players who've let account subs lapse were in NPC corps at the time" without further detail? I don't recall the actual data being shown, just hearsay.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 34823	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:39:26 - [409] - Quote Mikael Menethil wrote: Because wardecs. These mechanics are revolutionizing the MMO scene, attracting many new players and keeping others active. Many future MMOs will have it, they're the epitome of sandbox gaming. In nullsec a Corp or Alliance can go to war against anyone they like without any mechanic in the game preventing them. The same in lowsec, with the only consequence outside FW being crime watch if they don't pay for a war. There is nothing special about highsec that should prevent aggression on the Corp/Alliance scale. But unfortunately CONCORD does prevent it, so the wardec mechanic is consistent with what can be achieved elsewhere in the game. Without CONCORD, no wardec mechanic would be needed. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 34823	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:47:39 - [410] - Quote Eli Stan wrote: By the way, have CCP ever posted the detailed stats on accounts that weren't renewed? With info on account age and corp history for each? Or is this based on a passing comment in a blog or something along the lines of "most players who've let account subs lapse were in NPC corps at the time" without further detail? I don't recall the actual data being shown, just hearsay. It's not hearsay. It's directly from CCP. I'll see if I can drag up the references and add them to this post. I can't remember off hand of it was CSM minutes, devblogs, o7 or something else; so it might be a little while. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari

Sibyyl Gallente Federation 23980	Posted - 2015.03.17 04:18:02 - [411] - Quote Of new players who are subbed: 50% of them leave (in ~1 month) 40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving" 10% move into a "wide range of experiences", "training with other players, in corps much more often, they're talking on fleet chats more often, they're on PVP kills more often". "These people tend to stick with us, they love the game and stay with the game for a long time". If CCP can "get other players to have the experiences this group is having, the better off we will be because for them it is really rich and meaningful and it sticks with them all the time". Source: Fanfest 2014 - New Player Experience Vision Y'all want to keep telling Kaarous and Scip that they're making stuff up? #afkleadership -óß¦ªß¦ç-ó
Valkin Mordirc 789	Posted - 2015.03.17 04:30:22 - [412] - Quote Sibyyl wrote: Of new players who are subbed: 50% of them leave (in ~1 month) 40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving" 10% move into a "wide range of experiences", "training with other players, in corps much more often, they're talking on fleet chats more often, they're on PVP kills more often". "These people tend to stick with us, they love the game and stay with the game for a long time". If CCP can "get other players to have the experiences this group is having, the better off we will be because for them it is really rich and meaningful and it sticks with them all the time". Source: Fanfest 2014 - New Player Experience Vision Y'all want to keep telling Kaarous and Scip that they're making stuff up? ^^ Entirely this. It's not hearsay. So again, if CCP is saying, NPC corps seem to cause problems with play retention. So Arguing the point that NPC corps and player corp balance is "Working as Intended" Is not true. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1952	Posted - 2015.03.17 04:35:33 - [413] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: ^^ Entirely this. It's not hearsay. So again, if CCP is saying, NPC corps seem to cause problems with play retention. So Arguing the point that NPC corps and player corp balance is "Working as Intended" Is not true. Except you are utterly misinterpreting the facts by saying that CCP is saying NPC corps cause problems with play retention. So yes, Kaarous is making it up. Are there issues with player retention, undoubtedly. But NPC corps are NOT what cause those problems, and NPC corps have just as much opportunity for socialising as any other corp. What really causes the main issues are the lack of benefits from socialising in almost any PvE activity. You are punished for trying to be social in most forms of PvE by lower income even.
Valkin Mordirc 789	Posted - 2015.03.17 04:58:26 - [414] - Quote Quote: What really causes the main issues are the lack of benefits from socialising in almost any PvE activity. You are punished for trying to be social in most forms of PvE by lower income even. I can agree with that. It's a fair point, However if misson rewarded equal benefit it make mess with the market so an entirely new reward system is needed. Quote: Except you are utterly misinterpreting the facts by saying that CCP is saying NPC corps cause problems with play retention. So yes, Kaarous is making it up. Are there issues with player retention, undoubtedly. But NPC corps are NOT what cause those problems, and NPC corps have just as much opportunity for socialising as any other corp. I feel as if I slightly misinterpreted myself. Let me backpedal a little bit. NPC corps need tweaked, Highsec Player Corps need buffed. However. Buffed is not to allow "Wardec Immunity" by buff I mean to allow more long term goals to be reached. As for NPC corps being a problem, and needing tweak. They don't really give players long term goals. Or goals to reach out side of a personal level. If I stayed in an NPC corp, I would have quit EVE long time ago, I've had three accounts before this one, and quit mainly because I didn't know what I was doing. NPC corps are an issue for me because for any Newbro it isn't enough to provide a good hook to keep them playing and keeping the game I like fresh and going. That is just me, so it could be different. However I strong that that, NPC corps do not provide direction. That is what needs to be fixed about NPC corps. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Ferni Ka'Nviiou Republic University Minmatar Republic 10145	Posted - 2015.03.17 05:37:01 - [415] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: NPC corps need tweaked, Highsec Player Corps need buffed. However. Buffed is not to allow "Wardec Immunity" by buff I mean to allow more long term goals to be reached. As for NPC corps being a problem, and needing tweak. They don't really give players long term goals. Or goals to reach out side of a personal level. If I stayed in an NPC corp, I would have quit EVE long time ago, I've had three accounts before this one, and quit mainly because I didn't know what I was doing. NPC corps are an issue for me because for any Newbro it isn't enough to provide a good hook to keep them playing and keeping the game I like fresh and going. That is just me, so it could be different. However I strongly feel that that, NPC corps do not provide direction. That is what needs to be fixed about NPC corps. That's the new player experience you're wanting a change in. Player corps don't naturally provide direction either. The core fault is the new player experience.
Valkin Mordirc 789	Posted - 2015.03.17 07:03:52 - [416] - Quote Ferni Ka'Nviiou wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: NPC corps need tweaked, Highsec Player Corps need buffed. However. Buffed is not to allow "Wardec Immunity" by buff I mean to allow more long term goals to be reached. As for NPC corps being a problem, and needing tweak. They don't really give players long term goals. Or goals to reach out side of a personal level. If I stayed in an NPC corp, I would have quit EVE long time ago, I've had three accounts before this one, and quit mainly because I didn't know what I was doing. NPC corps are an issue for me because for any Newbro it isn't enough to provide a good hook to keep them playing and keeping the game I like fresh and going. That is just me, so it could be different. However I strongly feel that that, NPC corps do not provide direction. That is what needs to be fixed about NPC corps. That's the new player experience you're wanting a change in. Player corps don't naturally provide direction either. The core fault is the new player experience. Aye, However every new player starts in an NPC corp. So NPC corps need to be more New Player open, NPC corps themselves I still believe are a problem. as listed above. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 3222	Posted - 2015.03.17 07:33:41 - [417] - Quote About this part: "40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving" How do we know that "for many of them that's not a good fit"? Maybe for that 40%, solo, isolated play is exactly what they want from a game. They do as much of that play style as Eve has to offer, find they have done all they can do, and move on to some other game. Maybe, given the entire philosophy on which Eve is written, it only appeals to 10% of the people who try it. If we want more people to stay with Eve, changing the NPE, or corps, or NPC corps is not enough. We need to look deeper, into the basic philosophy of Eve. ( Cold, hard universe, actions have consequences, you are never safe, player driven content with some theme park stuff here and there.) Or we keep the current philosophy, and accept that 10% of new players will be all Eve ever keeps. Know a Frozen fan? Check this out Frozen fanfiction
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 34825	Posted - 2015.03.17 07:56:41 - [418] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Or we keep the current philosophy, and accept that 10% of new players will be all Eve ever keeps. Or keep the current philosophy, make changes to the NPE and find ways to make player corps more discoverable and more attractive to move to, so that the players among that 90% that will also be attracted by the play that the 10% find, have ways to find/access it easier. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Niobe Song Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2015.03.17 08:29:57 - [419] - Quote IMO the new player experience has more to do with poor player retention.
Leannor Caldari Provisions Caldari State 138	Posted - 2015.03.17 09:29:00 - [420] - Quote IMO there's just not that many people in the world who have the correct mentality to appreciate EVE and commit to it. Too many quick quid type people. It should be more about attracting more of the right crowd in the first place, than trying to change the game to retain those who aren't the right fit for EVE. "Lykouleon wrote: STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"



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