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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Shailagh
WTB Somalians
87
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Posted - 2015.02.10 17:57:59 -
[1] - Quote
Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? |
virm pasuul
Viziam
Amarr Empire
203
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Posted - 2015.02.10 17:59:53 -
[2] - Quote
trolling is prohibited |
Shailagh
WTB Somalians
87
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Posted - 2015.02.10 18:02:21 -
[3] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:trolling is prohibited
You are in an npc corp. See has FACTS and DATA proving you will quit eve before i do. Join a player corp, give ccp money. If you sid join a corp id wardec ur ass into oblivion though and youd still prob quit |
virm pasuul
Viziam
Amarr Empire
203
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Posted - 2015.02.10 18:06:55 -
[4] - Quote
I don't think you understand Eve at all sorry.
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Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
1770
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Posted - 2015.02.10 18:18:26 -
[5] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:virm pasuul wrote:trolling is prohibited You are in an npc corp. See has FACTS and DATA proving you will quit eve before i do. Join a player corp, give ccp money. If you sid join a corp id wardec ur ass into oblivion though and youd still prob quit
THIS attitude is why some players stay in NPC corps, because the second they leave its all "noob lulz trololol give me isk and i dubble for u" and other such infantile harassment, they arent made to feel welcome. There are so few corps out there who willa actually take a newbie and NOT use them as fodder and laugh at them for it, that the chances of a noobie finding a community to join is low as limbo goes.
almost makes me want to restart my old lowsec pirate corp, but of course then I remember all of the annoying trolls who DID join for pvp, harass all the noobs who joined until they left the corp to go back to highsec or left the game entirely
unfortuenately the most vocal part of this community is the most toxic, like, id rather swap spit with a xenomorph kind of toxis |
Josef Djugashvilis
2876
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Posted - 2015.02.10 18:19:11 -
[6] - Quote
Dear op, if you need to ask the question, you would not understand the answers.
This is not a signature.
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Fireflyb1
Walden 2.0
63
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Posted - 2015.02.10 18:21:01 -
[7] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Are you proposing an experiment/testing for your hypothesis?:
"Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?"
If so, let us know how it goes! |
Jallukola
37
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Posted - 2015.02.10 18:37:11 -
[8] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Shailagh wrote:virm pasuul wrote:trolling is prohibited You are in an npc corp. See has FACTS and DATA proving you will quit eve before i do. Join a player corp, give ccp money. If you sid join a corp id wardec ur ass into oblivion though and youd still prob quit THIS attitude is why some players stay in NPC corps, because the second they leave its all "noob lulz trololol give me isk and i dubble for u" and other such infantile harassment, they arent made to feel welcome. There are so few corps out there who willa actually take a newbie and NOT use them as fodder and laugh at them for it, that the chances of a noobie finding a community to join is low as limbo goes. almost makes me want to restart my old lowsec pirate corp, but of course then I remember all of the annoying trolls who DID join for pvp, harass all the noobs who joined until they left the corp to go back to highsec or left the game entirely unfortuenately the most vocal part of this community is the most toxic, like, id rather swap spit with a xenomorph kind of toxis
Countdown till someone comes weeping confusing this as making game more "newbie friendly and inclusive" and providing a good joke how nullsec runs everything?
The greatest battle music of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67MPxnPHBNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16RCvtziXj0
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HeXxploiT
Little Red X
88
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Posted - 2015.02.10 20:24:59 -
[9] - Quote
I'm going to answer the title of the thread because it's a very valid question. You know for many months when I first started playing I didn't even understand the function of a corp nor did I try and the only time I looked into corp chat was to ask questions which more often than not led to frustration. I had a few personal friends I played with and met a couple other cool people online and that seemed enough for a time. The only reason I discovered corporations was I wanted to find a way into juicy nulsec to make some isk and only THEN did I begin to learn about politics and the more interesting aspects of eve life.
So I ignored the corp channels because they were frequently more noisy then useful and I didn't pay any attention to the forums for much the same reason. Take the responses in this thread as an example. Lots of &%$#*^&*)&&)* and few serious answers. MOST eve players don't read or post on the forums either. I know this may come as a shock to many.
I think many stay in the npc corps and miss out on much of the big picture because the useful information leading them to what should be a natural progression of the game gets lost in the muck.
Guy jumps into lowsec, gets blown up, asks in corp chat or on forums why he got blown up or what he did wrong and 47 people laugh and shame him. I think it's natural that many more laid back individuals are repulsed by this and in avoiding those type of interactions they fail to come across the necessary information.
Personally I was always repulsed by the maturity level of many eve players but thankfully my greed for isk motivated me to overcome. 
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1559
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Posted - 2015.02.10 20:32:57 -
[10] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:virm pasuul wrote:trolling is prohibited You are in an npc corp. See has FACTS and DATA proving you will quit eve before i do. Join a player corp, give ccp money. If you sid join a corp id wardec ur ass into oblivion though and youd still prob quit
So you admit to be part of the problem?
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Yzar Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.02.10 20:53:10 -
[11] - Quote
I am not in a corp because corps of 1 or 2 players just declare war on our corp everytime we are in jita or other high traffic areas in the hope of getting easy kills. |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
59
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Posted - 2015.02.10 21:06:35 -
[12] - Quote
Yzar Soikutsu wrote:I am not in a corp because corps of 1 or 2 players just declare war on our corp everytime we are in jita or other high traffic areas in the hope of getting easy kills.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqyixwqiCag |
Don Pera Saissore
31
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Posted - 2015.02.10 21:25:56 -
[13] - Quote
What about those who join nullsec corps and quit because they get bored of exploration and gatecamps because thats the only thing they can do. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
32823
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Posted - 2015.02.10 21:51:49 -
[14] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:There are so few corps out there who willa actually take a newbie and NOT use them as fodder and laugh at them for it, that the chances of a noobie finding a community to join is low as limbo goes.
This statement in no way matches my experience at all.
Where is the data you use to draw this conclusion?
In my experience, the larger percentage of corps are ok. They aren't necessarily set up to actively teach new players, but they don't treat new players as fodder to be laughed at.
The issue isn't how good a Corp is, but how discoverable that Corp is for new players, particularly those that have no other friends in the game.
The bad apple Corps exist unfortunately, but they are a minority in my experience.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
32823
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Posted - 2015.02.10 21:55:01 -
[15] - Quote
Yzar Soikutsu wrote:I am not in a corp because corps of 1 or 2 players just declare war on our corp everytime we are in jita or other high traffic areas in the hope of getting easy kills.
There are two things to this:
1. you can use out of Corp alts to manage logistics, buys and sales, etc.
2. So what? Why is a wardec by a 1-2 person Corp bad? What level of threat does it really present and even if pvp happens, what's the worst that happens?
Being in a player run Corp is so beneficial to play in this game compared to solo play and NPC Corps, that the negatives of a wardec are miniscule by comparison, especially if that war is managed well internally.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1382
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Posted - 2015.02.10 21:58:47 -
[16] - Quote
Shailagh wrote: They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often.
Philosophy 101
Fallacy of assuming the wrong causal direction.
(The stats show a correlation but there is no reason to assume causality or the direction of the causality should it exist) |
Marsan
271
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Posted - 2015.02.10 21:59:06 -
[17] - Quote
There are generally 3 reasons people stay in the NPC corps:
1) Fear of being killed or exploited by corp mates.
2) Bad experiences with the war system. HS wars suck in general (boring, and unwinnable) , and the best way to win as a defender is not to fight.
3) They are loners.
What CCP has made a 1st step of closing the ability of corpmates from shooting each in HS in the next release. What needs to happen next is to give corps an option to opt out of wars for a price, and use the isk the carebears pay to opt to create pvp opportunities for PVP corps. Sure HS pvpers would lose carebears tears, but there would be a lot more PVP in HS if there was a reason for defenders to fight.
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
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Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co.
Brave Collective
277
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Posted - 2015.02.10 22:02:50 -
[18] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:virm pasuul wrote:trolling is prohibited You are in an npc corp. See has FACTS and DATA proving you will quit eve before i do. Join a player corp, give ccp money. If you sid join a corp id wardec ur ass into oblivion though and youd still prob quit
Please translate: sid, id, ur, youd, prob ...
In other words: go away troll. |
Nalia White
Tencus
69
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Posted - 2015.02.10 22:03:04 -
[19] - Quote
well i think it's normal that so many players will leave eve. they come for the space theme but will leave once they get to know the harsh mechanics of the game... if you now try to keep those players in you will have to change eve and that's not good in my book... the last bastion of a true game!
it seems like ccp is currently trying to create a highsec in which these players can coexist, but that is a dangerous endevour... it can be a chance though... maybe after some time some of those players that would have left eve earlier will taste blood and become like the rest of the bittervets :)
edit: and don't forget that many alts will be in npc corps because players will try to disconnect them from their main. |
Memphis Baas
135
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Posted - 2015.02.10 22:36:50 -
[20] - Quote
I think the reasons are:
1. War evasion.
2. Crappy corps for players to join.
3. Solo player.
1. No way should war declarations be nerfed, they are an integral part of the game. However (and this is hard; I have no idea how it can be done exactly), making the fighting more fun once you're in a war might go a long way towards convincing people to join in the fights rather than evade. Maybe make the war system into a tournament, with a prize to be won, a ticking clock for its duration, public progress reports, a way for third parties to bet on the outcome, a way for each corp to editorialize why they're fighting and how they're progressing, I don't know.
2. There are good corps and there are crappy corps. It's very hard to tell from the in-game adverts and corp interface. Also, the permanent corp history is a deterrent to trying out corps serially, to find the good ones. Maybe implement a ratings system, maybe similar to the forum one.
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Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
265
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Posted - 2015.02.10 23:47:32 -
[21] - Quote
CAS corp has bacon
Loki "I have an army"
CAS "We have a Boiglio" |
Serene Repose
2210
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Posted - 2015.02.11 01:19:25 -
[22] - Quote
They stay in NPC corps because they're following what we all love to brag is our first rule of this GAME:
1. TRUST NO ONE!
Are you surprised?
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7757
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Posted - 2015.02.11 01:24:08 -
[23] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Believe whatever you like. It's not against the EULA to be stupid.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
60
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Posted - 2015.02.11 01:31:47 -
[24] - Quote
The better question is why don't players join player corps? |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
32
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Posted - 2015.02.11 03:14:32 -
[25] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often.
Or... players that quit EVE don't bother joining a player corp because they're going to quit EVE regardless, and would still quit EVE even if they were in a player corp. Or maybe quit even sooner if forced into it.
Quote:I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Maybe some do, I really don't know about everybody else, but I never joined a player corp because I didn't want to put up with some of the BS I've read about. CTAs, minimum activity levels, paplinks, asset theft, egos, rants, idee fixe on kb ISK efficiency... Also, as I approach my one-year anniversary in CAS and know some other pilots approaching a decade in CAS, there's a bit of pride in sticking to something - something that works for us - for so long.
Quote:Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
No. Instead, buff NPSI communities. However, I don't think there's much that CCP can do about that beyond some official promotion like their recent corp how-to video - so it's up to us participants in the NPSI lifestyle to promote it more. Bomber's Bar (featured in "This is EVE,") Spectre Fleet, RvB Ganked, and, of course, my favorite, CAS in all it's iterations both PvP and PvE which is, I think, the only NPSI org to essentially exist 23x7 - are all good starts. But I think NPSI needs to be promoted even more to newbies as ways to try out various EVE activities. Yes, the "trust no one" mantra applies, since there's nothing preventing, say, Tempelman from deliberately leading the entire bombing fleet into a pipebomb for the LOLs, but who would he get to fly with him after doing that a time or two? Or an NPSI fleet could plan to bring in a few newbies every once in a while to gank, which wouldn't necessarily be known by the next newbie, just like not all newbies know (but some do) about the Goon recruitment application fee scam. And there's no accounting for regular ol' personality conflicts and ashattery.
But I think that NPSI fleets can become something with a good reputation of just pure gaming fun. No commitments or expectations, just the experience of exploring all EVE has to offer in a social setting. Like going over to your local field after work for an impromptu game of football with whoever else is there with the same idea. No joining a league, no required practice times, no handing over your medical records and bank accounts - and you just might meet some people you'll want to have a beer with at the pub afterwards.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
899
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Posted - 2015.02.11 05:14:53 -
[26] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:I think the reasons are:
1. War evasion.
2. Crappy corps for players to join.
3. Solo player. 4. Null Sec using alts to farm ISK because Incursions pay more than anything they can do in null.
5. Made an alt and just forgot it there.
6. Anonymous scouts.
7. Spreading EVE political agendas to quite a few players. >.>
I do think that veterans need a push out of the nest rather than an enticement.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
479
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Posted - 2015.02.11 07:41:33 -
[27] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Addressing your thread title more than the op post I think that the npc corp issue is due to a lack of viable alternatives. Every day an npc player logs in they should get a floating motd encouraging them to join a player corp or fw.
And perhaps in future times we might see more kinds of npc corps that blur the line a little more and I hope they encourage people to form their own groups once they get the hang of things
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
6435
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Posted - 2015.02.11 07:55:27 -
[28] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here.
Wouldn't it be easier just to make a donation then?
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
135
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Posted - 2015.02.11 08:15:55 -
[29] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Mainly speaking for my self personally, i just dont want to get to involved with player corps.
i have done my time with fleet ops and experimental charades into 0.0
some of it quite thrilling. but it required me to actually have to be involved.
and alot of the times i just dont want to be that engaged in the game .
to me gaming is supposed to be relaxing, fun and enjoyable.
unfortunately player corps make it more demanding competitive and somewhat angsty .
Watching your supposed friends turn on one another and subdivide into warring factions kinda pisses me off.
i just wanna play space ships, not captain politics.
so yeah, this is the wrong game to be an antisocial leave me the hell alone player.
but the universe is too captivating to ignore . and not being a apart of eve no matter how inconsequential, just seems wrong.
Especially for some one who considers himself a internet space ships game lover.
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Elena Morin'staal
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
54
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Posted - 2015.02.11 08:46:19 -
[30] - Quote
I'm sitting in a facwar npc corp simply because I don't have time to play eve - I can get the odd evening or something to go do some pew or exploring or whatever, but I can't dedicate time online.
Therefore, its not fair to join a corp and spend most of my time not fighting with them.
I tried quitting once. Didn't work. |
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
54
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Posted - 2015.02.11 08:50:34 -
[31] - Quote
I like to be able to go to trade hubs without being shot at by station hugging wardec spammers whose idea of a good fight is dropping 10 vindis on anyone stupid enough to shoot back.
Sitting on a hub 24/7 with active wardecs against every player corp in the game should not be a thing.
My other issue with player corps is how narrowminded a lot of them are. Most just seem to want to live in one little pocket of space stacking ISK and ganking anyone who wanders into their den, or sitting on the local stargate for hours at a time. Doesn't appeal to me. |
Anthar Thebess
862
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:02:39 -
[32] - Quote
Because Wars are very cheap and imbalanced.
If someone is in higsec in 90% of the cases he is interested in pve.
Most of the wars is maintained by experienced Null sec players that use higsec alts for some additional fun.
Usually on one side you have players using t1 equipment and 1 kill on KB , on the other side person flying faction ship, using faction and T2 stuff that have 2-3 thousand kills per char.
But this is eve , no one told it is going to be fair  |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
479
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:31:51 -
[33] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Because Wars are very cheap and imbalanced. If someone is in higsec in 90% of the cases he is interested in pve. Most of the wars is maintained by experienced Null sec players that use higsec alts for some additional fun. Usually on one side you have players using t1 equipment and 1 kill on KB , on the other side person flying faction ship, using faction and T2 stuff that have 2-3 thousand kills per char. But this is eve , no one told it is going to be fair
Well fundamentally a game does need to be fair in regards to equal opportunity for all participants but you're right that EVE doesn't really level the playing field through artificial limits like 10v10 or so
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
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Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation
The Kadeshi
137
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:35:50 -
[34] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:I think the reasons are:
1. War evasion.
2. Crappy corps for players to join.
3. Solo player. 4. Null Sec using alts to farm ISK because Incursions pay more than anything they can do in null. 5. Made an alt and just forgot it there. 6. Anonymous scouts. 7. Spreading EVE political agendas to quite a few players. >.> I do think that veterans need a push out of the nest rather than an enticement.
8. mercs using npc corps to protect neutral logi
9. gankers using npc corps to protect the bumping machariels
10. people dont like the fact they have to speak on ts and submit api's to every corp they try and join (Trust no one?) so they just stay solo
EVEALON Creative --á****Logo Design | Killboard Banners | -áWeb Design | Website Graphics
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Thorav
State War Academy
Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:49:52 -
[35] - Quote
Because we want to play by ourselves?
No, im serious, Im surprised that no one else has really expanded on that.
I've been in the NPC corp for 5 years now, and I've never left since I started playing EVE. I have no desire to be small part of a big system. Like f--k, if i I wanted to be a tiny cog in a giant machine of thousands of people, I'd go and work for a financial firm in a cubicle from 9-5.
I, and i suspect, many players, want to make a mark on the game, but i'll be damned if i have to rely on hundreds of other people to get **** done. I will never be able to claim any accomplishments then. I will never kill a titan. I will never hold sovereignty. I realize these unfortunate truths. "So join a corp!" you all say... but then, it wont be ME accomplishing any of those things. I will be the guy who contributes 0.000234% of the damage to that one titan, that one time.
As counter-intuitive as it may initially seem, being in a corporation (read: being in a group in life) robs you of all personal accomplishment. You can't claim anything as being your own doing because you're now relying on others. I want to play video games to escape the social constructs of real life. So f--k, I ain't gonna APPLY and JOIN those very same constructs in the game!
Thats the main reason for me. The other is the elitist, bullshit attitude that plagues EVE. Granted, i realize that its better than a lot of the attitudes that plague most MMO's, but damn can it be annoying. I dont want to serve an FC, who is really just another player, most likely with no real-world tactical knowledge, but who act like gods with self-imposed authority because they're the best at blowing up pixels. I don't want to be forced to use specific, doctrined ship fits, or do specific things that are mandatory.. like holy hell its stupid... MANDATORY ship fits and tasks... in a VIDEO GAME. Nothing in a game should be mandatory, that's what makes it a game.
"But the ship fits are doctrined not because they're trying to force you to do something you dont want, but rather, because they're EFFECTIVE" you all say. Granted, but i should have the right (correction, i DO have the right) to play the game however i want to, fitting my ships however i so choose.
"But then you're jeporadising the mission, and the battle! If you have a ****** fit, you could lead to everyone else losing!"... Guys, its a videogame. Calm down. You should have the agency to do what you want. Real life is where you go if you want to do things that are forced. That isn't what i play for. I am not playing a game only to find out that its really just like real life. That aint fun for me.
"So quit those ****** corps, then!" you say.... but we're talking about WHY players dont join them, so that point is moot in this case.
Lastly, I see no advantages to joining a corp. What am i going to do in goonswarm? All of the ****** things i described above, and the rest will be things i do on my own time. So what, i have access to corporate hangers and corporate wallets and new bases across the universe? Those things dont REALLY matter, and you can get 99% of them from other players in noob corps, if you're nice.
"But dont you want to participate in big fleet battles"
No
"But dont you want to hold sovereignty and make a change in the world"
Yes, but not at the cost of what's required.
"But dont you want all the help and comradery that comes with being in a corp?"
Newsflash, there's no difference in personality between people in corps, and people in the noob corp. You can have the same help and comradery in the noob corp, so long as you're not an ass.
Tl;Dr: I personally dont want to join a corp because i hate the idea of being a small part of a massive entity. That's what real life is for.
I suspect that for other players, it's partly that, and partly because the 'advantages' of being in a corp dont align with the goals and interests of the player, and are thus rendered null and void. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy
2305
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:54:22 -
[36] - Quote
I think there's a fair number of people who hide away in NPC corps because they want to play not-Eve, but, for reasons passing understanding, don't simply cancel their subscriptions and go find a game that they'll really enjoy.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff | No-one hates you, none of us care enough for that.
Sabriz for CSM
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Shin Jan
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
6
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:55:17 -
[37] - Quote
Because I...I...I didn't pass Pator Tech School exit exam... |
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
16
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Posted - 2015.02.11 09:57:49 -
[38] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Outside there, in the MMORPG world, I'm a member of several PVP centric multi-game guilds. Over here, I keep all my characters in NPC guilds and hell will freeze over before I join a player corp or bring other guild members here and form my own.
If you want to know why:
- I am nobody's meatshield
- No one dictates to me what to do, what to fit and what to train
- No one but no one gets my API keys. Your security be hanged.
- I despise awoxing
- I despise the fact everyone can wardec everyone else, without the decced corp getting a chance to refuse. I've heard about and actually seen new player corps and economy players get ganked left and right because of wardecs by 'professionals'. It's sickening. In my book, that's not PVP, that's just being a complete bully taking advantage of a bad game mechanic.
So er, yeah, I'll do my own thing and stay away from player corps.
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Sagrima Ellecon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 09:57:52 -
[39] - Quote
Maybe it is just something about RealLife(TM).
I would love to join a player corp, but i simply can't find one. I have a job and family, so I spend about three to six ours a week online. Most of the time in the evenings and with breaks (kids tend to wake up at some time...).
So, who ever would take me into a corp must cope with these times.
Ah, by the way: I hate teamspeak. ;-) During fleet ops it is no question to use it, but there are plenty of corps that require me to instantly join teamspeak, when I enter the game.
Sounds like the fate of a "casual"... |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
124
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 10:13:35 -
[40] - Quote
This becomes an unexpectedly good discussion ...
The reasons why I'm staying in an NPC corp were already named by others. The main point for me is ... independence ... I want to be free to decide anytime, what, where, when, and with whom I do stuff in the game. I know if I would join a player corp it would suck me into obligations and responsibility - which is not bad and I won't exclude it for the future - but atm I don't have the time and patience for that.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated
Northern Associates.
103
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Posted - 2015.02.11 10:19:13 -
[41] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
from a CEO's perspective, there was only ever one big issue. Not money, not 'what we do or where', not keeping people happy. With the right care these take care of themselves.
It's Recruitment. Two fold.
1) Finding enough people to recruit. Expeirenced or not was never an issue (Though it may be for some).
2) Fnding those that would stay in corp and be active within the corp.
Those two things are the hardest things in EVE imo. Awoxing can be dealt with quite easily (aside from the HC long term sleepers etc). Recruiting noobs is for HIgh Sec corps anyway (mostly) and awxoing shouldn't be the biggest concern. From a CEO perspective you can tell if a noob is going to fit in within a few days (ideally within a few minutes of the interview in all honesty). The real probelm is that the connection between noobs and corps from the noobs point of view just isnt' there. Plus, 'everyone wants to be in their own corp and weild all the power' is the single biggest issue. So many people join a corp, then want to start their own so they can playwith the corp logo, assign roles, and be all powerful. Essentially, too many corps, too few people, and far too many chiefs and not enough indians. (hmm, that spelling of Indians looks wrong, but wahetever)
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Sagrima Ellecon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 10:27:24 -
[42] - Quote
Quote:[...]within a few minutes of the interview in all honesty
This is another reason. I am not applying for a job here. I want to play a game. I have no need, interest or time for interviews...
As I understand the corp roles, you can define very clearly what a new corp member can do. So just give him the absolut minimum access until you are sure of him.
This is definitely a show stopper for people like me. |
Ed MarKeen
East Domain Inc.
17
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Posted - 2015.02.11 10:28:02 -
[43] - Quote
This seems one of the reasons:
http://i.imgur.com/m6p6g5o.png |
Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated
Northern Associates.
103
|
Posted - 2015.02.11 10:32:35 -
[44] - Quote
Sagrima Ellecon wrote:Quote:[...]within a few minutes of the interview in all honesty This is another reason. I am not applying for a job here. I want to play a game. I have no need, interest or time for interviews... As I understand the corp roles, you can define very clearly what a new corp member can do. So just give him the absolut minimum access until you are sure of him. This is definitely a show stopper for people like me.
lol. interview .... ok, that's too formal a word ... it's a chat, to see if you're on the same kind of wave length, nothing more. ;-)
You need people who will get along.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Jasmine Deer
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2015.02.11 11:27:53 -
[45] - Quote
Thorav wrote: I have no desire to be small part of a big system. Like f--k, if i I wanted to be a tiny cog in a giant machine of thousands of people, I'd go and work for a financial firm in a cubicle from 9-5.
Sort of related to the above is that some of us play Eve to relax.
After a long day putting up with managers, bosses, foremen and assorted lunatics in positions of power in the workplace the last thing we need is to be bossed around in a computer game and pay for the privilege.
Reminds me why I was so long out of a player corp. One week it was a mandatory CTA, next week we had to stay docked unless we were in fleet. Don't fly unless you have a scout, fly this fit, please explain why you lost your ship (looks bad on our killboard), get on Teamspeak NOW !, etc
Having said that there are plenty of corps that cater to casual players and newly formed corps that are just happy to have recruits and make no demands.
Not that hard to find if you look, and if you make a mistake you can always leave. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
196
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Posted - 2015.02.11 11:41:39 -
[46] - Quote
Nalia White wrote:well i think it's normal that so many players will leave eve. they come for the space theme but will leave once they get to know the harsh mechanics of the game... if you now try to keep those players in you will have to change eve and that's not good in my book... the last bastion of a true game!
it seems like ccp is currently trying to create a highsec in which these players can coexist, but that is a dangerous endevour... it can be a chance though... maybe after some time some of those players that would have left eve earlier will taste blood and become like the rest of the bittervets :)
edit: and don't forget that many alts will be in npc corps because players will try to disconnect them from their main.
but these players you speak of are already in the game. in an NPC corp. this HIGH sec you speak of already exists.
so CCP is thinking about letting them name themselves and have a channel related to it.
where's the problem?
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Kousaka Otsu Shigure
37
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Posted - 2015.02.11 11:46:53 -
[47] - Quote
Renaming the title to "Why do we place alts in npc corps?"..
I actually enumerated a list of various activities, and realizing that the theme was generally the same, i'll TLDR:
To enjoy the anonymity/wardec-free perks of being in the NPC corp. Note that everyone can enjoy(abuse) this, not just carebears/new players/etc.
Archiver, Software Developer and Data Slave
Current Project Status: Collating Forum Posts - Fourth Pass
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated
Northern Associates.
104
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Posted - 2015.02.11 12:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jasmine Deer wrote:Thorav wrote: I have no desire to be small part of a big system. Like f--k, if i I wanted to be a tiny cog in a giant machine of thousands of people, I'd go and work for a financial firm in a cubicle from 9-5.
Sort of related to the above is that some of us play Eve to relax. After a long day putting up with managers, bosses, foremen and assorted lunatics in positions of power in the workplace the last thing we need is to be bossed around in a computer game and pay for the privilege. Reminds me why I was so long out of a player corp. One week it was a mandatory CTA, next week we had to stay docked unless we were in fleet. Don't fly unless you have a scout, fly this fit, please explain why you lost your ship (looks bad on our killboard), get on Teamspeak NOW !, etc Having said that there are plenty of corps that cater to casual players and newly formed corps that are just happy to have recruits and make no demands. Not that hard to find if you look, and if you make a mistake you can always leave.
this ... there are different corps that have different demands on their mebers for different reasons.
0.0 is serious stuff, and you need to be organised if you're going to be successfull. That means, CTA, discipline, explusion if non compliant. (though even within these parameters there can still be fun, friendship and flexibility with good corps).
HIgh and lo sec corps have the freedom to be either totally llberal in demands (many have none) or act as strcit as if they were in 0.0. And here, the choice is yours. :)
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Merouk Baas
901
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Posted - 2015.02.11 13:01:53 -
[49] - Quote
The other side of the "it's too much like work" debate is that CCP only provides the sandbox and it's that poor CEO's job to fill your evenings with all the fun that you can handle, and he too has to pay for the privilege. So maybe he feels he has the right to set some rules and call some CTA's.
There are too many junk corps and too few good ones, and it's difficult for players to find good corps that match their play style, and it's difficult for corp recruiters to find players who will fit with the corp. |
Cynthia Sinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2015.02.11 13:14:22 -
[50] - Quote
I stay in a NPC corp because The Scope is best Scope.
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated
Northern Associates.
104
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Posted - 2015.02.11 13:24:05 -
[51] - Quote
Cynthia Sinn wrote:I stay in a NPC corp because The Scope is best Scope.
Feels like I'm at work, reveiwing an IT project. Ugh ... hate 'scope; ... whats' in scope, what's out fo scope ... just say what you're going to do ... such a pathetic appendix to a project.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
32
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:13:04 -
[52] - Quote
So erry single person here can agree that what ccp said "awox fears" are NOT THE REASON either people stay in npc corps or that ceos dont recruit more???
Good job doing ur research before nerfs ccp. I just did ur research for you in 1 day, NO players dont hide in npc corps cuz of awox fears. Nice "necessary for retention and money" card for the nerf reason though. |
Intar Medris
Viziam
Amarr Empire
222
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
Because they are war dodging carebears with an antisocial personality disorders who play a MMO, but don't want to deal with other people.
I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
712
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:40:46 -
[54] - Quote
Going by this thread, I'd say that because 50% of them have really serious misconceptions about what being in a player corp is like 
So, lack of good education. |
Shin Jan
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:45:36 -
[55] - Quote
Intar Medris wrote:Because they are war dodging carebears with an antisocial personality disorders who play a MMO, but don't want to deal with other people.
1. I don't want to be ordered around
2. I don't want to help
3. I have RL friends, don't need some online.
4. I don't want to be taxed
5. I don't want to hear your ugly voice through TS
6. I only interact with ppl when I PVP, ransom or do business.
7. I don't need anything else, your corp is only worth investing my time if I can go up to director and steal your heritage |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
907
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:54:03 -
[56] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Memphis Baas wrote:I think the reasons are:
1. War evasion.
2. Crappy corps for players to join.
3. Solo player. 4. Null Sec using alts to farm ISK because Incursions pay more than anything they can do in null. 5. Made an alt and just forgot it there. 6. Anonymous scouts. 7. Spreading EVE political agendas to quite a few players. >.> I do think that veterans need a push out of the nest rather than an enticement. 8. mercs using npc corps to protect neutral logi 9. gankers using npc corps to protect the bumping machariels 10. people dont like the fact they have to speak on ts and submit api's to every corp they try and join (Trust no one?) so they just stay solo +10Tipa Riot wrote:This becomes an unexpectedly good discussion ...
The reasons why I'm staying in an NPC corp were already named by others. The main point for me is ... independence ... I want to be free to decide anytime, what, where, when, and with whom I do stuff in the game. I know if I would join a player corp it would suck me into obligations and responsibility - which is not bad and I won't exclude it for the future - but atm I don't have the time and patience for that. You regularly stroll down and as a matter of routine to an area of null sec, to shoot at players, where they follow the belief of independance to infuriating levels.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
73
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Posted - 2015.02.11 14:56:29 -
[57] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps?
This really is the crux of the matter. The problem isn't people staying in NPC corps. It's people not joining player corporations. And honestly, if they're going to stay in highsec, why should they? What possible motivation could they have to suddenly put themselves at exponentially more risk for no real gain in the rewards available?
Personally, I fell that anyone who joins a strictly highsec corporation with other real life people is probably a masochist.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation
The Kadeshi
140
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:39:43 -
[58] - Quote
being in a player corp aint as bad as everyone makes out, yeah you submit api keys but a good corp builds tools for you to use with your api and awoxing is a thing so they are just looking out for the rest of the corps interests.
doctrines are there for a strategic point (people actually research the best fits for any situation) being part of a team and going for big and small fights is great fun and actually being a valued part of a fleet (logi/ewar/tackle/links/scouts etc) is rewarding.
most corps wont force you to do things you don't want to and kitchen sink fleets are fun and are a thing in most corps too.
A slight different question, why join a highsec player corp if you can have the protection and freedom of a player low/null corp?
EVEALON Creative --á****Logo Design | Killboard Banners | -áWeb Design | Website Graphics
-á
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated
Northern Associates.
106
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:59:44 -
[59] - Quote
Shin Jan wrote:Intar Medris wrote:Because they are war dodging carebears with an antisocial personality disorders who play a MMO, but don't want to deal with other people. 1. I don't want to be ordered around 2. I don't want to help 3. I have RL friends, don't need some online. 4. I don't want to be taxed 5. I don't want to hear your ugly voice through TS 6. I only interact with ppl when I PVP, ransom or do business. 7. I don't need anything else, your corp is only worth investing my time if I can go up to director and steal your heritage
You're practically by definition who EVE is not designed for ... lol
"Lykouleon wrote:
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TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Shailagh
WTB Somalians
88
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:06:44 -
[60] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:So erry single person here can agree that what ccp said "awox fears" are NOT THE REASON either people stay in npc corps or that ceos dont recruit more???
Good job doing ur research before nerfs ccp. I just did ur research for you in 1 day, NO players dont hide in npc corps cuz of awox fears. Nice "necessary for retention and money" card for the nerf reason though.
Again this is the reason behind the awox nerf. Errybody in npc corps are worthless, soon to be quitters in ccps eyes. They have said so over and over. They hate you and think you will quit if u stay in npc corps. |
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Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation
The Kadeshi
141
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:11:27 -
[61] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Kaelynne Rose wrote:So erry single person here can agree that what ccp said "awox fears" are NOT THE REASON either people stay in npc corps or that ceos dont recruit more???
Good job doing ur research before nerfs ccp. I just did ur research for you in 1 day, NO players dont hide in npc corps cuz of awox fears. Nice "necessary for retention and money" card for the nerf reason though. Again this is the reason behind the awox nerf. Errybody in npc corps are worthless, soon to be quitters in ccps eyes. They have said so over and over. They hate you and think you will quit if u stay in npc corps.
not true, the alts to the player corp players are not worthless ;)
EVEALON Creative --á****Logo Design | Killboard Banners | -áWeb Design | Website Graphics
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:48:40 -
[62] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps? This really is the crux of the matter. The problem isn't people staying in NPC corps. It's people not joining player corporations. And honestly, if they're going to stay in highsec, why should they? What possible motivation could they have to suddenly put themselves at exponentially more risk for no real gain in the rewards available? Personally, I fell that anyone who joins a strictly highsec corporation with other real life people is probably a masochist.
Nah that's not true. The people who sit on hub undocks and try to wardec everyone in local seem to have a good time. I don't understand how, but the there's certainly enough of them.
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Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
161
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Posted - 2015.02.11 16:49:12 -
[63] - Quote
Ask Marmite.
This is like asking, 'Why don't all those school kids go outside for recess? There are only 1,000 neanderthal thugs with machetes surrounding the school.'
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
124
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Posted - 2015.02.11 18:29:14 -
[64] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
You regularly stroll down and as a matter of routine to an area of null sec, to shoot at players, where they follow the belief of independance to infuriating levels.
I'm always happy to provide content.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam
Disturbed Acquaintance
1425
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Posted - 2015.02.11 18:38:15 -
[65] - Quote
rumour has it ...
CAS does stuff
but to answer the question .. because they can |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
77
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Posted - 2015.02.11 18:42:27 -
[66] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Elenahina wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps? This really is the crux of the matter. The problem isn't people staying in NPC corps. It's people not joining player corporations. And honestly, if they're going to stay in highsec, why should they? What possible motivation could they have to suddenly put themselves at exponentially more risk for no real gain in the rewards available? Personally, I fell that anyone who joins a strictly highsec corporation with other real life people is probably a masochist. Nah that's not true. The people who sit on hub undocks and try to wardec everyone in local seem to have a good time. I don't understand how, but the there's certainly enough of them.
Do you think it ever occurs to them to wardec each other?
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
677
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Posted - 2015.02.11 18:44:55 -
[67] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
You are wrong. The "main reason" is community and anonymity. Avoiding wardecs in an npc corp is a great plan unless you actually want to excel at the game.
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:24:13 -
[68] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? You are wrong. The "main reason" is community and anonymity. Avoiding wardecs in an npc corp is a great plan unless you actually want to excel at the game.
"Excel at the game" is a mostly subjective statement. And a great many "veteran" and "expert" players use NPC alts to conduct their highsec affairs and circumvent the broken wardec system.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
58
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:29:23 -
[69] - Quote
Elenahina wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Elenahina wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps? This really is the crux of the matter. The problem isn't people staying in NPC corps. It's people not joining player corporations. And honestly, if they're going to stay in highsec, why should they? What possible motivation could they have to suddenly put themselves at exponentially more risk for no real gain in the rewards available? Personally, I fell that anyone who joins a strictly highsec corporation with other real life people is probably a masochist. Nah that's not true. The people who sit on hub undocks and try to wardec everyone in local seem to have a good time. I don't understand how, but the there's certainly enough of them. Do you think it ever occurs to them to wardec each other?
You know highsec mercs have too much money and too little to do when...
https://zkillboard.com/kill/44242461/
And then they go back to blapping lone wartargets, because blingboat brawls on station get expensive real fast. People actually risk losing ships, and if they wanted to do that they wouldn't be on a hub undock all day.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3737
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:47:53 -
[70] - Quote
Players don't stay in NPC corps. They set up one-man corps to avoid NPC tax. CCP kinda haves an issue with it, and there is no easy way out as the roots are very deep and solutions would require more than CCP is able, or willing, to do.
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Drazok
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.02.11 20:58:54 -
[71] - Quote
1.Wardecs
2.Wardecs
3.Wardecs
4.Wardecs
5.Wardecs
6.Wardecs
7.Wardecs
8. Corp politics
I have played a little NULL sec in my day, mostly care bear/goof around. I was in a new player friendly corp and we got war deced out of empire space, moved in with an alliance in null because it was safer lol.
NCP corps are safe if you just want log on and play with your space ships with out having to worry about some one pooping in your sandbox.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1391
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Posted - 2015.02.11 21:55:58 -
[72] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:Players don't stay in NPC corps. They set up one-man corps to avoid NPC tax.
Sometimes you do not need to do it deliberately :D
One of my PI alts joined a local losec mining/indy corp years ago.
Since then all 15 other guys (some were alts of the same guy I suspect) gradually quit.
He now has his own one person 15 member corp. |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
481
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Posted - 2015.02.11 22:48:24 -
[73] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:So erry single person here can agree that what ccp said "awox fears" are NOT THE REASON either people stay in npc corps or that ceos dont recruit more???
Good job doing ur research before nerfs ccp. I just did ur research for you in 1 day, NO players dont hide in npc corps cuz of awox fears. Nice "necessary for retention and money" card for the nerf reason though.
I didn't know you had access to the quitting players survey?
Golly it looks like you only have the forums, a venue where people with an already higher than normal degree of dedication go.
Put a sock in it.
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:15:32 -
[74] - Quote
I guess the upside to eliminating NPC corps would be the ability to identify and wardec griefers' alts. |
Vic Jefferson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
133
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:32:05 -
[75] - Quote
Intar Medris wrote:Because they are war dodging carebears with an antisocial personality disorders who play a MMO, but don't want to deal with other people.
Who is more of a carebear? A few week old players who can barely fit ships, or the large group of veteran players clinging to hisec and deccing them?
Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.
Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X
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Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation
The Kadeshi
142
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:39:52 -
[76] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Intar Medris wrote:Because they are war dodging carebears with an antisocial personality disorders who play a MMO, but don't want to deal with other people. Who is more of a carebear? A few week old players who can barely fit ships, or the large group of veteran players clinging to hisec and deccing them? Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.
this wins the internet today
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:44:13 -
[77] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Intar Medris wrote:Because they are war dodging carebears with an antisocial personality disorders who play a MMO, but don't want to deal with other people. Who is more of a carebear? A few week old players who can barely fit ships, or the large group of veteran players clinging to hisec and deccing them? Pot, I'd like to introduce you to kettle.
They only give me one like unfortunately.
It's basically PvE except these rats drop tears, which are worth more than officer mods to a certain breed of player.
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Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
63
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:50:22 -
[78] - Quote
I personally pray for the day that gates and stations lock out suspects for the duration of the timer in High Sec. Which is probably how it should work. Seriously it's like "High Security" is run by the keystone cops. Then i think we'd see some actual High Sec pvp and Bounty Hunting would actually be a worthwhile profession given what I see some of these scary mercenaries guys fielding to kill haulers and mission ships. Great fun would be had by all. |
Chapmonious Hunter
Pwn 'N Play
Nulli Secunda
88
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Posted - 2015.02.12 00:16:04 -
[79] - Quote
Move it along people, just another "nerf high sec" thread nothing to see here |
Shailagh
WTB Somalians
89
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Posted - 2015.02.12 00:16:22 -
[80] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kaelynne Rose wrote:So erry single person here can agree that what ccp said "awox fears" are NOT THE REASON either people stay in npc corps or that ceos dont recruit more???
Good job doing ur research before nerfs ccp. I just did ur research for you in 1 day, NO players dont hide in npc corps cuz of awox fears. Nice "necessary for retention and money" card for the nerf reason though. I didn't know you had access to the quitting players survey? Golly it looks like you only have the forums, a venue where people with an already higher than normal degree of dedication go. Put a sock in it.
Ccp has TOLD US many many times that people in npc corps and that people that only pve solo quit way more often than others. That is why they SAID they are making the antiAwox change and the social corp change.
You are ignorant. |
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1392
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Posted - 2015.02.12 00:31:40 -
[81] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kaelynne Rose wrote:So erry single person here can agree that what ccp said "awox fears" are NOT THE REASON either people stay in npc corps or that ceos dont recruit more???
Good job doing ur research before nerfs ccp. I just did ur research for you in 1 day, NO players dont hide in npc corps cuz of awox fears. Nice "necessary for retention and money" card for the nerf reason though. I didn't know you had access to the quitting players survey? Golly it looks like you only have the forums, a venue where people with an already higher than normal degree of dedication go. Put a sock in it. Ccp has TOLD US many many times that people in npc corps and that people that only pve solo quit way more often than others. That is why they SAID they are making the antiAwox change and the social corp change. You are ignorant.
They are using very poor logic than.
If someone is uncomfortable with group play for personal reason or bad experiences with corps/guilds/clans in EVE or some other game, or maybe even have a busy career and kids and have no time other than to log once a week to run a few missions, forcing them to join a corp will just make them quit faster.
The attitude you are describing is akin to saying to someone "how can you possibly hate chillie? Here let me force feed you a chillie pizza and then you will see the error of your ways and find you really love it".
If that is really CCP future strategy all they will achieve is force those types of players to quit even faster. |
Shailagh
WTB Somalians
89
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 00:42:34 -
[82] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Shailagh wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kaelynne Rose wrote:So erry single person here can agree that what ccp said "awox fears" are NOT THE REASON either people stay in npc corps or that ceos dont recruit more???
Good job doing ur research before nerfs ccp. I just did ur research for you in 1 day, NO players dont hide in npc corps cuz of awox fears. Nice "necessary for retention and money" card for the nerf reason though. I didn't know you had access to the quitting players survey? Golly it looks like you only have the forums, a venue where people with an already higher than normal degree of dedication go. Put a sock in it. Ccp has TOLD US many many times that people in npc corps and that people that only pve solo quit way more often than others. That is why they SAID they are making the antiAwox change and the social corp change. You are ignorant. They are using very poor logic than. If someone is uncomfortable with group play for personal reason or bad experiences with corps/guilds/clans in EVE or some other game, or maybe even have a busy career and kids and have no time other than to log once a week to run a few missions, forcing them to join a corp will just make them quit faster. The attitude you are describing is akin to saying to someone "how can you possibly hate chillie? Here let me force feed you a chillie pizza and then you will see the error of your ways and find you really love it". If that is really CCP future strategy all they will achieve is force those types of players to quit even faster.
Lmao i know right!? Ccp said thats theyre logic. Its stupid
Dude read the csm summit mins and recent devblogs. This is ccps new strategic plan. Its laughable as you point out |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
98
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Posted - 2015.02.12 01:14:54 -
[83] - Quote
Because its a sandbox where everyone's choice to play how they want to is valid. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
912
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 03:21:36 -
[84] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: You regularly stroll down and as a matter of routine to an area of null sec, to shoot at players, where they follow the belief of independance to infuriating levels. I'm always happy to provide content. I mean that you harp on about independance as though it can only exist in a NPC corp in high sec.
CSM Ten movement for change.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
Status: Rabid carebear
Blog
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Captain Davison
Malachi Keep Detachments
17
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Posted - 2015.02.12 05:32:24 -
[85] - Quote
Reasons I'm in a solo corp (Ish):
1) Holdover from when I split off from another corp that had the brilliant idea to drag 25-40 industrialists/PvE'ers scattered across every timezone on the planet out to nullsec.
2)Ever since my old main account was allowed to lasp, I haven't gotten around to temporarily reactivating it to transfer control to my new main.
3)Putting together a new group slowly, but still encountering the same issue of '10-20ish industrialists/PvE'ers/Destroyer-pilots/surveyors/miners from every single timezone on the planet' and having trouble bringing them all together and levering them out of their old corps.
4)Why in gods name would I want to hire somebody off the street I don't know who might want to shoot me in the head? |
Whittorical Quandary
The Asteroid is Depleted
14
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Posted - 2015.02.12 06:52:04 -
[86] - Quote
There's definitely a slew of reasons to drop out of a player corp, the vast majority to me involve wars:
Wardec's
-New players are rarely prepared with skills for combat.
-Players have a lot to lose and very little sp put into combat ships to do much of anything.
-It takes a larger amount of active corp members to counter a wardec corp if you have new players, and many corps have very few combat willing pilots on at the same time. A bit too many small corps and alliances that are too small to field enough players to do much of anything imo,
-Industry players have industry implants that are useless in pvp and often become massive collateral damage if they try and counter attack a wardec corp that attacks them system.
(24 hour clone jump time traps you as either a combat or indy player for 19-24 hours)
-If you're corp cannot put up a fight you're effectively crippled to do much anything in HS, New players don't have the sp and experience to survive NS and WH space which becomes safer to be in during a war. You can stay out of trade hubs and trade routes but there will always be some that roam.
-As a result of these, greif corps can wardec hundreds of corps with little worry for retaliation.
-With good corp leadership Awoxing is a little issue vs dealing with wars.
Some Ideas I'll throw out:
1) Reducing clone jump times allowing players to hop between indy and combat implant pods more easily.
2) Possibly having a minimum amount of players to create a corp. Small corps are doomed in any wardec and there are hundreds of small 1 -10 character corps that are couldn't even do anything if they tried, with half easily being alts. ie: WoW has a minimum amount of players that must sign a guild charter to start a group and imo it works well.
3) With the friendly fire toggle change and well run corps leadership, Awoxing will be at more of a minimum. Though I feel awoxing and ganking should always be a gameplay function and should not be nerfed completely away.
- With more pvp players greif wardeccing corps will become a much more risky and dangerous thing leading to fewer wardecs.
-Integrating common game wisdom and good practice into the tutorial for new players.
(IE: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Explaining the importance of higher defense fits on indy ships. If a contract seems too good to be true, be wary of accepting it)
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
-Douglas Adams
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Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
264
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Posted - 2015.02.12 07:21:26 -
[87] - Quote
I lucked out and ended up in the NPC corp CAS on my main when I first started playing (Gallente were the only races whose avatars I could stomach before they upgraded to our current version). CAS is an NPC corp that organizes events for a bunch of different play styles and are quite helpful. Some of the members have been playing for many years. I am too busy IRL to play as much as most people so it is nice being able to go away and then come back and some of the same people are around and I can just hope back in as if I hadn't been gone.
I doubt CCP will ever get rid of NPC corps but if they did I would probably end up canceling my accounts. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
128
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Posted - 2015.02.12 11:58:07 -
[88] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I mean that you harp on about independance as though it can only exist in a NPC corp in high sec.
You can declare or perceive independence towards and with different entities of course. As a corp you can be independent and not being part of an alliance, as an alliance you can hold your own sov but be independent form any of the big coalitions. It's purely subjective ... if I would join a VOLT corp certainly I have to follow the Provi rules and contribute to the agenda, which is not bad in general, but not what I like and would call independent personally.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
835
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 13:29:12 -
[89] - Quote
They dont thrust other ppl.
They cant follow corp requirements or want to do things solo.
Politics contrary to popular belief is not why they decided to fly internet spaceships. |
Machagon
Plate of Beans Incorporated
71
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Posted - 2015.02.12 14:03:44 -
[90] - Quote
Answering the question in the title.
I stayed in the starter NPC corp for quite a while when I started simply because I wasn't interested in socializing. I was very happy with the solo playstyle, and I'm a little anti-social to begin with. I just didn't want my relax and shoot spaceships time to also be chat with Internet peeps time.
I think that's probably it for a lot of people. They want to experience EVE as an essentially single player game, with other players essentially providing content but not social interaction. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Of course, I was eventually recruited into a player corp after asking exploration questions in Rens local and it was a great experience which led me to eventually form and run a corp of my own. It's a different game for me now that I have friends to fly with. If I had kept playing the solo game, I'm sure I wouldn't still be playing now, almost six years later. |
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Cronbrook
Viziam
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2015.02.12 14:15:12 -
[91] - Quote
NPC corps rock,
I have a 2004 player that has been banned from 0.0 more less on someone else's word that he was an awoaks'er
so player corps can suck it :)
I sold him in 2013 now I chill out in npc corps
not all players have muti accounts to play with.... I do but I know most don't
:)
almost 11 years and I am still here
are we having fun yet?
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Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
293
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Posted - 2015.02.12 17:34:19 -
[92] - Quote
Because I choose to. That's all the justification that's needed. |
jurgen b
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.02.12 17:41:33 -
[93] - Quote
Thorav wrote:Because we want to play by ourselves?
No, im serious, Im surprised that no one else has really expanded on that.
I've been in the NPC corp for 5 years now, and I've never left since I started playing EVE. I have no desire to be small part of a big system. Like f--k, if i I wanted to be a tiny cog in a giant machine of thousands of people, I'd go and work for a financial firm in a cubicle from 9-5.
I, and i suspect, many players, want to make a mark on the game, but i'll be damned if i have to rely on hundreds of other people to get **** done. I will never be able to claim any accomplishments then. I will never kill a titan. I will never hold sovereignty. I realize these unfortunate truths. "So join a corp!" you all say... but then, it wont be ME accomplishing any of those things. I will be the guy who contributes 0.000234% of the damage to that one titan, that one time.
As counter-intuitive as it may initially seem, being in a corporation (read: being in a group in life) robs you of all personal accomplishment. You can't claim anything as being your own doing because you're now relying on others. I want to play video games to escape the social constructs of real life. So f--k, I ain't gonna APPLY and JOIN those very same constructs in the game!
Thats the main reason for me. The other is the elitist, bullshit attitude that plagues EVE. Granted, i realize that its better than a lot of the attitudes that plague most MMO's, but damn can it be annoying. I dont want to serve an FC, who is really just another player, most likely with no real-world tactical knowledge, but who act like gods with self-imposed authority because they're the best at blowing up pixels. I don't want to be forced to use specific, doctrined ship fits, or do specific things that are mandatory.. like holy hell its stupid... MANDATORY ship fits and tasks... in a VIDEO GAME. Nothing in a game should be mandatory, that's what makes it a game.
"But the ship fits are doctrined not because they're trying to force you to do something you dont want, but rather, because they're EFFECTIVE" you all say. Granted, but i should have the right (correction, i DO have the right) to play the game however i want to, fitting my ships however i so choose.
"But then you're jeporadising the mission, and the battle! If you have a ****** fit, you could lead to everyone else losing!"... Guys, its a videogame. Calm down. You should have the agency to do what you want. Real life is where you go if you want to do things that are forced. That isn't what i play for. I am not playing a game only to find out that its really just like real life. That aint fun for me.
"So quit those ****** corps, then!" you say.... but we're talking about WHY players dont join them, so that point is moot in this case.
Lastly, I see no advantages to joining a corp. What am i going to do in goonswarm? All of the ****** things i described above, and the rest will be things i do on my own time. So what, i have access to corporate hangers and corporate wallets and new bases across the universe? Those things dont REALLY matter, and you can get 99% of them from other players in noob corps, if you're nice.
"But dont you want to participate in big fleet battles"
No
"But dont you want to hold sovereignty and make a change in the world"
Yes, but not at the cost of what's required.
"But dont you want all the help and comradery that comes with being in a corp?"
Newsflash, there's no difference in personality between people in corps, and people in the noob corp. You can have the same help and comradery in the noob corp, so long as you're not an ass.
Tl;Dr: I personally dont want to join a corp because i hate the idea of being a small part of a massive entity. That's what real life is for.
I suspect that for other players, it's partly that, and partly because the 'advantages' of being in a corp dont align with the goals and interests of the player, and are thus rendered null and void.
Some of us like star wars and star trek stories, where we can have friendly entities spraid over the galaxy occasionaly without bein a part of them. I would love to see foreighn trade hubs outside empire space where you can go to without bein KOS, protected by players and where you pay tax to get in and trade some stuff at a station, that tax is to pay The player guards, places where you can go to, for example "miners as freelancers" to find a job in organized CO-OP fleets for that day or so, you create story because pirates want to take that down :) it would be some kind of way to make it attractive for people to leave high sec. Outside high sec there is no place for freelancers or newer players, you cant go anywhere unless you join a entity and then you live in that bubble, i like to be a freenlancer and travel all over the galaxy some new players like that to. High sec is like EU and everything around outside high sec is like some countries in the world where you would step outside the plane and you get shot :) or blown up by some terrorist :) EVE has so much tools to create awsome overall gameplay appealing to everyone without nerfing more, but people dont utilize that. I feel it is up to community to help EVE grow, CCP can not do it alone anymore. What CCP can do is create a alien race so some players can play an alien race i know EVE has the tradition, " dont trust anyone" and "shoot everything you see" axe questions later in convo. EVE has so much more potential without the need of putting more stuff in the game. but somehow 1 side is the FP- shooter KOS, and the other side of EVE is a gigantic capitalism simulator. and somehow the space story is lost. and if CCP try to brake this two sided game a bit to create more space story then we are often rioting to brake it appart again. i guess we dont like people who have the star wars story in mind
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Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
269
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Posted - 2015.02.12 19:49:54 -
[94] - Quote
PC = Player Career
NPC = Not Player Career
I've been gone from EVE for as long as 8 months at a time. I've never came back to find my assets sitting in a station I'm now locked out of. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1394
|
Posted - 2015.02.12 22:33:01 -
[95] - Quote
It is worth mentioning that the majority of highsec wardecs are not honorable attempts to engage other players in glorious pvP space batttles. They are either political (moving competition out of a system) or more commonly straight extortion, offering to call off the wardec if X billion ISK is paid. |
Iyokus Patrouette
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
307
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Posted - 2015.02.12 22:52:57 -
[96] - Quote
"Don't ever join a player corp, NPC corp is safer"
Part of an actual conversation i overheard in The Scope while i was between glorious wormhole corps. 
---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
370
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 00:02:39 -
[97] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Because I choose to. That's all the justification that's needed.
Facking right... |
Aston Martin DB5
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
47
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Posted - 2015.02.13 00:41:39 -
[98] - Quote
Why do I stay in NPC corps? Because I don't enjoy going through a 25 step process just to be invited. You need teamspeak, vent, gaggle, online interview, online interview questions answered, your account information along with your api numbers >>>> ETC ETC ETC.
Like are you F' serious? |
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
3803
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 01:42:22 -
[99] - Quote
If it hasn't been said before: It is impossible to wardec and get easy kills on a player in an NPC corp. Partizans can avoid overwhelming application of force against them by being in NPC corps. Cowardly? No. Waiting in the woods... maybe.
"My mule don't like laughing. You can apologize to my mule and can be alright."
-The Man with No Name
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Diemos Hiaraki
Perkone
Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2015.02.13 05:34:07 -
[100] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
When I started playing there were 55+k online every day. Noobs do imo need a hand - Eve is stale and the vast majority of it's high sec mechanics make **** all sense to even seasoned gamers. I took a year away from Eve, and when I came back I witnessed a log on of roughly 20k online and that was before the isboxer restictions (I blame the mechanics of sov null more than anything else for the drop in players online however there are those who just like to pick on people too.) I've come beck to the awesomeness of Brave and NPSI and I totally missed the boat with both of them - I cannot endorse either more as brilliant player made additions to Eve, but even these haven't turned things around. I've seen the result of CCP and CSM actually appearing to work together - not perfectly, but I'm really positive about how they have done so far... I never thought I'd say that. However, I've seen the grossest roleplay I've ever witnessed in any game praising some barely literate septic as god and saviour, witnessed the grossest sexism and racism all in the name of 'content creation.' I watched powerless as a seven year old subscriber (and carebear) had so much grief that they've biomassed - with all their characters - just because of their sex and sexual preference. That harm cannot be repaired, but in an npc corp there are many whom feel safe from that kind of harm despite it often being 'more expensive.'
My oldest friend is in Eve gone because 'content creation and roleplay' - that's going to be the excuse I think by those who caused the effect, not 'I'm a rasist sexist' ****. This is someone who played for seven years, not some noob; someone experienced in the best and worst that Eve can deliver. Regardless of whether you think they were a worthy Eve player or not - they're gone, they're not coming back and you no longer have the opportunity to shoot them, abuse them, ridicule them or anything else. Being in an NPC corp for that person I think would have been a wiser choice, but Eve used to be a community and it doesn't really come across as that anymore to me or them. It's the Team America definitions of dicks, cunts and assholes.
Make someone afraid to leave station - fine, that's Eve; great strategy sometimes. Make someone afraid to leave their RL house, and frankly you deserve what you would get in Eve imo - sudden death. The longer I've been in Eve, this is getting worse with folks roleplaying being evil, serving a prophet or what have you. I'd like it to stop, but i know it won't and that's why I want high sec to die forever - this kind of crap is more pervasive in high. It's pretty much none existent everywhere else I've been frankly.
War decs do the same - they don't encourage combat, they encourage folks to quit the game and play something more engaging in my experience. CCP spends loads of money on advertising and players who aren't shepherds (sheep in other words - too lazy to see the big picture) hammer newer players before they've had time to adapt to the harsh environment that is Eve. Now I don't think that's entirely the fault of the folks wanting to fight obviously, but I do find it odd that anyone would expect anyone who doesn't want to fight or doesn't know how to fight back to engage when running from a lost cause is a huge part of PvP (if you want a decent kill board - but there is always someone better than you.) The first time I was war decced I'd just been given a drake and I didn't want to lose it because it cost so much and bare in mind a retriever used to hold close as a venture does now in ore...and I did end up quitting - I think it was for nine months; nine months of sweet subscription money that CCP missed and nine months you lot had missed killing me with impunity with a tank that would have consisted of a civilian shield booster and that's about it I was that stupid.
After all that I'd agree that NPC corps are a massive problem - I'd like to chose my corp whether NPC or not for a start. For me though the solution is to enroll any players not in a player corp into faction war (sorry FW guys, I know that would cause problems in of itself.) Eve online's biggest problem is getting high sec players engaged with both the community and PvP from the word go imo (in other words, those who have taken the mantle of high sec carebear ARE a lost cause - I agree with 'content creators' who think that,) and i think the only sensible way to change that is to change the base structure of Eve online and get rid of high sec. If you want to solo L4 missions, mine or whatever, hide behind players, not concord. Be a part of Eve not apart from it - for that to happen high sec has to go and I honestly think it is inevitable that it will do - and soon. Concord is going to be busy with a new threat, an NPC threat... I hope.
If what I suspect is true, war decs/npc corp isn't going to make a damn bit of difference - it'll be Eve - massive smiles and tears and it will be glorious. Long have I seen CCP Seagull as Diogenes waving a lamp looking for honesty, but not the cynic - a pragmatist; occam's razor looking for the simple hypothesis to a complex problem regardless of what folk think. Even if I'm wrong I still have faith in her vision. 'Content creators' like the saviour of high sec seem to be worried in the meantime - maybe with good reason. |
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Exxon Hess
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2015.02.13 06:01:50 -
[101] - Quote
To somewhat echo what Deimos said, maybe corps should be given a "draft" flag that they can set to auto-accept new chars. Characters would be randomly assigned to a PC based on how far the HQ of the corp is from the "birthplace" of the character.
Anyway, I just started my third or fourth tour of duty in Eve, and yes, I'm in an NPC corp. Like others here, I have little time for gaming, and can't make the commitments that a lots of corps have. I've been in two player corps: one high-sec indy corp, which was largely inactive, and stumbled my way into a veteran NPC-null corp that got sucked into a massive alliance. In the latter, I had to pay corp dues, respond to CTAs, spend time in gate camps and roams where we shot at nobody, etc. I already have a job, and *they* pay *me*. Because of my online inactivity due to RL commitments, some corp members accused me of being a spy, and that was enough to make me quit.
I'm getting back into solo FW/PVP, which I enjoyed in the past. However, even in FW, it's hard to get into a fleet and do anything interesting. I'd like to give logi a shot, but there's no such thing as solo logi. I'd love to fall into a casual FW/PVP corp that is big enough to have a good amount of people online, and would like logi/dpw support now and then, but not guilt me for not logging in every week... I am positive there are corps out there like this. I can't find them. They can't find me. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
370
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Posted - 2015.02.13 13:28:15 -
[102] - Quote
Exxon Hess wrote:Because of my online inactivity due to RL commitments, some corp members accused me of being a spy, and that was enough to make me quit.
Those are the type of idiots that take the game way too serious and can't even comprehend when others don't. Shun them like the plague....
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Leannor
Central Builders Incorporated
Northern Associates.
116
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Posted - 2015.02.13 13:33:21 -
[103] - Quote
Exxon Hess wrote: I'd love to fall into a casual FW/PVP corp that is big enough to have a good amount of people online, and would like logi/dpw support now and then, but not guilt me for not logging in every week... I am positive there are corps out there like this. I can't find them. They can't find me.
if you find them, ... let me know.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Anslo
Scope Works
Psychotic Tendencies.
29403
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Posted - 2015.02.13 14:44:10 -
[104] - Quote
Cynthia Sinn wrote:I stay in a NPC corp because The Scope is best Scope.
Can't cope with the Scope.
[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
371
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 15:34:54 -
[105] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Cynthia Sinn wrote:I stay in a NPC corp because The Scope is best Scope.
Can't cope with the Scope.
I got a bottle of Scope. It's Blue... |
Senator BobDoLe
45th Armament Division
Seraphim Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 15:58:34 -
[106] - Quote
Desimus Maximus wrote:Ask Marmite.
This is like asking, 'Why don't all those school kids go outside for recess? There are only 1,000 neanderthal thugs with machetes surrounding the school.'
What he means by this, is that he hides in NPC corp because whatever corp he joins will be wardec'd immediately because he he stole billions of crap from his last corp's wormhole POS.
I would have given you that tengu had I known you were so desperate, BTW. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
371
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 16:01:17 -
[107] - Quote
Leannor wrote:Exxon Hess wrote: I'd love to fall into a casual FW/PVP corp that is big enough to have a good amount of people online, and would like logi/dpw support now and then, but not guilt me for not logging in every week... I am positive there are corps out there like this. I can't find them. They can't find me. if you find them, ... let me know.
Well
We could start one.
No API checks, no guilt for busy people, only requirement is log in once a month. And maybe pick a day 2 or 3 weeks in advance where we can all or most of us try to long on together. Home base in an NPC Station, maybe even a Null NPC Station. We get together for a few hours, spin ships, go out on a roam in inexpensive ships, or just sit in chat and ***** about our fat wives and idiot bosses.
A corp with 15-20 guys/girls who don't take themselves too serious could be some fun or a failure. But you never know...
We call it "The Slacker Corp" or maybe "The Apathetic Group"....
|
Drazok
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 17:18:12 -
[108] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Leannor wrote:Exxon Hess wrote: I'd love to fall into a casual FW/PVP corp that is big enough to have a good amount of people online, and would like logi/dpw support now and then, but not guilt me for not logging in every week... I am positive there are corps out there like this. I can't find them. They can't find me. if you find them, ... let me know. Well We could start one. No API checks, no guilt for busy people, only requirement is log in once a month. And maybe pick a day 2 or 3 weeks in advance where we can all or most of us try to long on together. Home base in an NPC Station, maybe even a Null NPC Station. We get together for a few hours, spin ships, go out on a roam in inexpensive ships, or just sit in chat and ***** about our fat wives and idiot bosses. A corp with 15-20 guys/girls who don't take themselves too serious could be some fun or a failure. But you never know... We call it "The Slacker Corp" or maybe "The Apathetic Group"....
You will be wardeced before the ink is dry on the page. I was in a group like this, in our first week we where wardeced by 2 corps, and our vent server was infiltrated. I know I am a care bear and so my option is what it is, but wtf was the point of wardecs again ? Seems like it is mostly used at a greifing tool. |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
292
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 17:42:53 -
[109] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Because they want to be in an NPC corp. Does it make you mad? |
S'Way
Bitter Vets
1156
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 18:10:24 -
[110] - Quote
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:Why do I stay in NPC corps? Because I don't enjoy going through a 25 step process just to be invited. You need teamspeak, vent, gaggle, online interview, online interview questions answered, your account information along with your api numbers >>>> ETC ETC ETC.
Like are you F' serious?
This pretty much.
Corps these days want you to jump through so many hoops it's insane. (and often they advertise themselves as something they aren't yet - like a lot of null / some wormhole corps claiming they do pvp but just POS up when a neut turns up).
The changes to the API haven't helped either (going from the old pre-defined limited ones to custom), most corps decided custom now means "only accept full API's".
If you're an industrialist or trader joining a corp isn't a great move as the API gives info about what you're building / trading in and you risk someone with the API moving into that market on their own alts (and this can happen). Unless you need sov to build supers you're better off solo with a good contact list.
Then there's those who don't want others with the ability to read their mails. (yes for some even though they probably have no mail anyone would be interested in it's a privacy issue to them). Finding a corp that will accept a custom non-mail API isn't easy anymore either.
Or if you PvP joining someone else's corp means your CEO can set blues you don't like and when corp standings override personal ones you end up having those overview bug accidents.
Of course don't forget those who just want to play the sandbox game in a way they choose instead of how others want them to. |
|
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Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 18:38:53 -
[111] - Quote
S'Way wrote:
Of course don't forget those who just want to play the sandbox game in a way they choose instead of how others want them to.
Apparently there is a correct way to play EVE. Usually centered around throwing yourself on the sacrificial altar of your better's entertainment. All hail the lords of the neutral logi, +£bermensches of the undock, and guardians of the gates. This...is EVE.
Anywho stumbled across this, seemed oddly appropriate. Message!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytR7-wT0Qqw
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Orlacc
782
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 18:53:47 -
[112] - Quote
War deccing new players to pad a killboard is just sad. Some folks have based their whole rep on this wuss behavior.
For me taxes are too high in NPC corps. Plus I like to fly with others at times. Really a matter of taste.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
|
Archimedes Padecain
Blackout Industries
Blackout Operations
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.13 21:29:52 -
[113] - Quote
Thorav wrote:Because we want to play by ourselves?
No, im serious, Im surprised that no one else has really expanded on that.
I've been in the NPC corp for 5 years now, and I've never left since I started playing EVE. I have no desire to be small part of a big system. Like f--k, if i I wanted to be a tiny cog in a giant machine of thousands of people, I'd go and work for a financial firm in a cubicle from 9-5.
I, and i suspect, many players, want to make a mark on the game, but i'll be damned if i have to rely on hundreds of other people to get **** done. I will never be able to claim any accomplishments then. I will never kill a titan. I will never hold sovereignty. I realize these unfortunate truths. "So join a corp!" you all say... but then, it wont be ME accomplishing any of those things. I will be the guy who contributes 0.000234% of the damage to that one titan, that one time.
As counter-intuitive as it may initially seem, being in a corporation (read: being in a group in life) robs you of all personal accomplishment. You can't claim anything as being your own doing because you're now relying on others. I want to play video games to escape the social constructs of real life. So f--k, I ain't gonna APPLY and JOIN those very same constructs in the game!
Thats the main reason for me. The other is the elitist, bullshit attitude that plagues EVE. Granted, i realize that its better than a lot of the attitudes that plague most MMO's, but damn can it be annoying. I dont want to serve an FC, who is really just another player, most likely with no real-world tactical knowledge, but who act like gods with self-imposed authority because they're the best at blowing up pixels. I don't want to be forced to use specific, doctrined ship fits, or do specific things that are mandatory.. like holy hell its stupid... MANDATORY ship fits and tasks... in a VIDEO GAME. Nothing in a game should be mandatory, that's what makes it a game.
"But the ship fits are doctrined not because they're trying to force you to do something you dont want, but rather, because they're EFFECTIVE" you all say. Granted, but i should have the right (correction, i DO have the right) to play the game however i want to, fitting my ships however i so choose.
"But then you're jeporadising the mission, and the battle! If you have a ****** fit, you could lead to everyone else losing!"... Guys, its a videogame. Calm down. You should have the agency to do what you want. Real life is where you go if you want to do things that are forced. That isn't what i play for. I am not playing a game only to find out that its really just like real life. That aint fun for me.
"So quit those ****** corps, then!" you say.... but we're talking about WHY players dont join them, so that point is moot in this case.
Lastly, I see no advantages to joining a corp. What am i going to do in goonswarm? All of the ****** things i described above, and the rest will be things i do on my own time. So what, i have access to corporate hangers and corporate wallets and new bases across the universe? Those things dont REALLY matter, and you can get 99% of them from other players in noob corps, if you're nice.
"But dont you want to participate in big fleet battles"
No
"But dont you want to hold sovereignty and make a change in the world"
Yes, but not at the cost of what's required.
"But dont you want all the help and comradery that comes with being in a corp?"
Newsflash, there's no difference in personality between people in corps, and people in the noob corp. You can have the same help and comradery in the noob corp, so long as you're not an ass.
Tl;Dr: I personally dont want to join a corp because i hate the idea of being a small part of a massive entity. That's what real life is for.
I suspect that for other players, it's partly that, and partly because the 'advantages' of being in a corp dont align with the goals and interests of the player, and are thus rendered null and void.
all you had to type is, I'm a loner and I hate people. I did read your long rant by the way.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7771
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 03:56:32 -
[114] - Quote
I actually have a good reason for the six of my characters that are in their starter corps staying there.
Come sale time a character with no corp history gets a premium price over one with a corp list that makes your eyes bleed to look at. And at 1.7B to transfer right now, every little ISKie I can squeak out of a buyer counts.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6538
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 04:02:03 -
[115] - Quote
Basically make highsec safer...
specifically make joining or recruiting into the corps riskless.
Now to make a switch that turns off corp theft? A "social only" corp where you can't put assets into a stealable place?
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
128
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 10:55:45 -
[116] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Basically make highsec safer...
specifically make joining or recruiting into the corps riskless.
Now to make a switch that turns off corp theft? A "social only" corp where you can't put assets into a stealable place?
... I have a better idea, remove corps from highsec, corp offices shall be only allowed in low or nullsec.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3743
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 11:43:40 -
[117] - Quote
S'Way wrote:(...)
This pretty much.
Corps these days want you to jump through so many hoops it's insane. (and often they advertise themselves as something they aren't yet - like a lot of null / some wormhole corps claiming they do pvp but just POS up when a neut turns up).
The changes to the API haven't helped either (going from the old pre-defined limited ones to custom), most corps decided custom now means "only accept full API's".
If you're an industrialist or trader joining a corp isn't a great move as the API gives info about what you're building / trading in and you risk someone with the API moving into that market on their own alts (and this can happen). Unless you need sov to build supers you're better off solo with a good contact list.
Then there's those who don't want others with the ability to read their mails. (yes for some even though they probably have no mail anyone would be interested in it's a privacy issue to them). Finding a corp that will accept a custom non-mail API isn't easy anymore either.
Or if you PvP joining someone else's corp means your CEO can set blues you don't like and when corp standings override personal ones you end up having those overview bug accidents.
Of course don't forget those who just want to play the sandbox game in a way they choose instead of how others want them to.
Oh wait... you mean corps demand accessing your mail too?
Good job, CCP. Really good job here when it's easier and less intrusive to be hired by a corporation in real life, than in EVE...
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Redbull Spai
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 12:04:44 -
[118] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Yzar Soikutsu wrote:I am not in a corp because corps of 1 or 2 players just declare war on our corp everytime we are in jita or other high traffic areas in the hope of getting easy kills. There are two things to this: 1. you can use out of Corp alts to manage logistics, buys and sales, etc. 2. So what? Why is a wardec by a 1-2 person Corp bad? What level of threat does it really present and even if pvp happens, what's the worst that happens? Being in a player run Corp is so beneficial to play in this game compared to solo play and NPC Corps, that the negatives of a wardec are miniscule by comparison, especially if the war is managed well internally.
LOL
Do you understand the implications of a wardeck?
Corps declaring highsec wars are, almost without exception, experienced PVP corps or an experienced solo PVP player in a one-man-and-his-alts corp. Corps on the recieving end are non-PVP corps.
One man declaring war shuts down an ENTIRE corp's activities.
Once war decked, the corps non-PVP fleet is grounded. Undock your freighter, chances are you will get kicked from corp for giving away an easy lossmail. Ditto your 3bill faction fit level 4 running CNR or Rattlesnake. And with mining corps, ditto the thirty Hulks with Orca and hauler support. You are completely prevented from mining, hauling or missioning. All the 1-man corp has to do is find your ships with an out of corp cloaky alt, then jump his main in for the kill. He may even plant a spai in the corp if thier recruitment policies are lax.
As for the alternatives suggested - firstly using alts to haul/mission/mine - whats the point of your main then? If all you do is play your alt, and your main character is just there to log on and chat, why not just put the alt in the corp to chat and leave your main in the NPC (or a 1-man) corp so you can make isk with your best character?
And another, fly cheaper ships you can afford to replace. Yes really we all want to go back to flying Drakes in level 4's just for the privilege of corp chat, while our Rattlesnakes and Machariels rust away in the hanger. Again, in the NPC corp or a 1-man corp you can actually fly the ship you have spent months saving up for without fear of it getting casually blown up with no defence.
And finally, 'fit for PVP or GTFO'. Again, fitting a Machariel/Rattler/CNR for 'PVP' is gimping its ability in missions to such a level you might as well use a Drake - and most missioners arnt experienced in PVP so the wardecking character will probably win the fight anyway. And fitting exhumers with core stabs/DC - this gimps its yeild to a level worse than a T1 barge. Again the benefits of dropping corp (huge increace in yield, ships dont blow up) far outwieghs the benefits of staying in.
Until CCP change the wardeck mechanics to heavily punish corps declaring war on peaceful corps (and not just pay a few hundred isk for the pleasure) people will always prefer the NPC corps. |
Erin Crawford
455
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 12:20:07 -
[119] - Quote
The inability to rejoin the starting corp you first joined can also be a hindrance in leaving in the first place.
Often new players make friends with players in npc corps that help them out, etc... then they find out there no way they can rejoin the same starting corp should they join a player corp and not like it.
Flexibility in this area would be great; noobs would join (or at least try) Player-based corps far more often knowing they can always rejoin their starting corp and the players they initially befriended.
"Those who know donGÇÖt talk. Those who talk donGÇÖt know."
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Prince Kobol
2440
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 14:30:22 -
[120] - Quote
Instead of asking why players stay in NPC Corps a better question to ask is why should players join a player corp. What advantages especially is high sec is there for joining a player corp?
This subject has been discussed to death now and the results has always been the same, the advantages for players to stay in a NPC corp far far outweigh being in a player corp.
It is sad but true |
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Indahmawar Fazmarai
3743
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 15:18:16 -
[121] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Instead of asking why players stay in NPC Corps a better question to ask is why should players join a player corp. What advantages especially is high sec is there for joining a player corp?
This subject has been discussed to death now and the results has always been the same, the advantages for players to stay in a NPC corp far far outweigh being in a player corp.
It is sad but true
And add the benefits from setting a one-man corp and ready it to drop corp in case of wardec.
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Memphis Baas
161
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 15:32:25 -
[122] - Quote
Hey, maybe CCP can make the Drifters wage war on all the NPC corps and attack their member pod pilots much like war decs. So if you want to avoid the slew of nasty NPCs attacking at every gate, you leave the NPC corp for a player corp that has neutral standings to the Drifters. |
Prince Kobol
2440
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 16:40:17 -
[123] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Hey, maybe CCP can make the Drifters wage war on all the NPC corps and attack their member pod pilots much like war decs. So if you want to avoid the slew of nasty NPCs attacking at every gate, you leave the NPC corp for a player corp that has neutral standings to the Drifters.
Nice idea... that is if you want even more people to leave Eve.
As myself and many many many (that would be lots) other people have said before, until CCP make player driven corps in High Sec worth while then there is no incentive for new and old players to join them.
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Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
77
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 16:54:53 -
[124] - Quote
Why does it fall on CCP to implement a features to drive players out of player corps, rather than players doing things to attract players into their organizations?
A lot of the criticism of why people don't join player corps shared in this thread come down to players having to jump through arguably unreasonable hurdles to join, their privacy compromised, how they play compromised (Stay docked, cease all activity during war), and exposing themselves to even more potential for griefplay to name some of the ones that come up repeatedly. All of these are the result of player/community instituted actions, behaviors, and policies.
It seems that other players drive players away from player run organizations, particularly in High Sec. Is it that NPC corps are the problem, or is it that the player corp landscape has been made so unattractive by the players.
CCP implements tools to alleviate some of the more glaring things, having an option for concord intervention in intercorp aggression, implementing more robust networking tools for players in the form of social corps; things that will directly increase the likelihood of being able to build some measure of the trust required to join a player corp and it is viewed as the end of days.
Why would or should they do anything with NPC corps to absolve the players of their culpability in the environment they themselves created? And when they do step in to address the things we are doing that are keeping players out of our own corps, we condemn the actions. Classic damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
374
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 17:39:43 -
[125] - Quote
Thorav wrote: I dont want to serve an FC, who is really just another player, most likely with no real-world tactical knowledge, but who act like gods with self-imposed authority because they're the best at blowing up pixels. And they yell at you when you ask them "What is that gate we are jumping again?" I wouldn't ask if you stopped mumbling location like a ******.
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day... |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
77
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 18:49:46 -
[126] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Thorav wrote: I dont want to serve an FC, who is really just another player, most likely with no real-world tactical knowledge, but who act like gods with self-imposed authority because they're the best at blowing up pixels. And they yell at you when you ask them "What is that gate we are jumping again?" I wouldn't ask if you stopped mumbling location like a ******. I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight. So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off. I quit the corp that day...
Guess that didn't make the cut for the This is Eve trailer. |
Prince Kobol
2440
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 19:54:51 -
[127] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:Why does it fall on CCP to implement a features to drive players out of player corps, rather than players doing things to attract players into their organizations?
A lot of the criticism of why people don't join player corps shared in this thread come down to players having to jump through arguably unreasonable hurdles to join, their privacy compromised, how they play compromised (Stay docked, cease all activity during war), and exposing themselves to even more potential for griefplay to name some of the ones that come up repeatedly. All of these are the result of player/community instituted actions, behaviors, and policies.
It seems that other players drive players away from player run organizations, particularly in High Sec. Is it that NPC corps are the problem, or is it that the player corp landscape has been made so unattractive by the players.
CCP implements tools to alleviate some of the more glaring things, having an option for concord intervention in intercorp aggression, implementing more robust networking tools for players in the form of social corps; things that will directly increase the likelihood of being able to build some measure of the trust required to join a player corp and it is viewed as the end of days.
Why would or should they do anything with NPC corps to absolve the players of their culpability in the environment they themselves created? And when they do step in to address the things we are doing that are keeping players out of our own corps, we condemn the actions. Classic damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
Remember this is Eve and the one thing you can garatuee with this community is that it is never their fault... Ever.
All you will get is the standard response of HTFU and go back to WoW if you don't like it. I have never know this community to hold up their hands and go yeah.. actually part of the problem of new player retention is our attuide towards them and same can be said of encouraging players to join player created corps.
Yes CCP could do a lot more but then so could the community but it will never happen hence why Eve will always struggle to retain players, hence the average PCU count going downwards trend yet again. |
Kraxalious
Domini Caedis
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 20:00:30 -
[128] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day...
Of course, if the FC logged you could have taken over as FC and fought the other gang if you wanted to. Instead of waiting for someone else to make fun for you, sometimes you have to take initiative and make your own fun. |
Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
490
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 20:40:51 -
[129] - Quote
You guys have driven this discussion into minutia so well you should win an award of some sort. 
Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
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Miomeifeng Alduin
Lithonauts Inc.
65
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 20:54:22 -
[130] - Quote
Kraxalious wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day...
Of course, if the FC logged you could have taken over as FC and fought the other gang if you wanted to. Instead of waiting for someone else to make fun for you, sometimes you have to take initiative and make your own fun.
To do that ofcource, you need to have some knowledge on how to tactically lead a group of people in EVE. Some people are natural leaders and can think of the right ship to target in a large fight by instinct. Others just draw a blank and shoot random stuff. FC-ing isn't something everyone can just do (reasons can be skill, leadership quality, ability to speak a certain language clearly over comms, finding the right people who want to follow you and many more). |
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 21:38:02 -
[131] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Leannor wrote:Exxon Hess wrote: I'd love to fall into a casual FW/PVP corp that is big enough to have a good amount of people online, and would like logi/dpw support now and then, but not guilt me for not logging in every week... I am positive there are corps out there like this. I can't find them. They can't find me. if you find them, ... let me know. Well We could start one. No API checks, no guilt for busy people, only requirement is log in once a month. And maybe pick a day 2 or 3 weeks in advance where we can all or most of us try to long on together. Home base in an NPC Station, maybe even a Null NPC Station. We get together for a few hours, spin ships, go out on a roam in inexpensive ships, or just sit in chat and ***** about our fat wives and idiot bosses. A corp with 15-20 guys/girls who don't take themselves too serious could be some fun or a failure. But you never know... We call it "The Slacker Corp" or maybe "The Apathetic Group"....
That already exists - in an NPC corp called CAS. (Well, except there isn't even a monthly login requirement.) NPC nullsec station? Check. Large (100+ pilots) events announced in advance? Check. Socializing, NPSI PvP, PvE? Check. Pilots on 23x7? Check.
No need for a player corp to have fun in this game. Shrug.
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Vector Symian
0 Fear
411
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 22:42:36 -
[132] - Quote
Hello and before I continue My main is Happily in the best corp in New Eden, The Scope
Reason may be...
-The Scope is a awesome mixed up community of peeps that may be a little too individualistic for corps mechanics
-They get to avoid griefer wardecs
- most corps go dead once their driving force is gone and then your stuck in a dead end corp but out of a skewed sense of loyalty you have stayed
-you can tell any boss in the chat to go *beep* themselves without consequence
-it make opposing mindset get to know each other
- they may be finding the peeps to get behind their own crazy idea
- peeps tend to be funnier and more real in scope chat
Scope Corp - Best Corp
return to us my children make the Leaders earn your loyalty |
Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1041
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 23:04:46 -
[133] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. ...
It seems to me that your help is uncalled for and strangely informed by opinion.
Your posts conjure a vivid mental image of a pallid hand slapping a keyboard with a bright yellow plastic banana in a dark, quiet room.
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
|
Lan Wang
Coreli Corporation
The Kadeshi
169
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 23:15:35 -
[134] - Quote
Vector Symian wrote:Hello and before I continue My main is Happily in the best corp in New Eden, The Scope
Reason may be...
-The Scope is a awesome mixed up community of peeps that may be a little too individualistic for corps mechanics
-They get to avoid griefer wardecs
- most corps go dead once their driving force is gone and then your stuck in a dead end corp but out of a skewed sense of loyalty you have stayed
-you can tell any boss in the chat to go *beep* themselves without consequence
-it make opposing mindset get to know each other
- they may be finding the peeps to get behind their own crazy idea
- peeps tend to be funnier and more real in scope chat
Scope Corp - Best Corp
return to us my children make the Leaders earn your loyalty
find a decent player corp? sounds like you just join crappy corps
EVEALON Creative --á****Logo Design | Killboard Banners | -áWeb Design | Website Graphics
-á
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
376
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 12:44:46 -
[135] - Quote
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:Kraxalious wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day...
Of course, if the FC logged you could have taken over as FC and fought the other gang if you wanted to. Instead of waiting for someone else to make fun for you, sometimes you have to take initiative and make your own fun. To do that ofcource, you need to have some knowledge on how to tactically lead a group of people in EVE. Some people are natural leaders and can think of the right ship to target in a large fight by instinct. Others just draw a blank and shoot random stuff. FC-ing isn't something everyone can just do (reasons can be skill, leadership quality, ability to speak a certain language clearly over comms, finding the right people who want to follow you and many more).
Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge or experience to be an effective FC. I DO have some leadership abilities. Maybe some day I can give it a shot.... |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
3754
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 18:14:27 -
[136] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:Why does it fall on CCP to implement a features to drive players out of player corps, rather than players doing things to attract players into their organizations?
A lot of the criticism of why people don't join player corps shared in this thread come down to players having to jump through arguably unreasonable hurdles to join, their privacy compromised, how they play compromised (Stay docked, cease all activity during war), and exposing themselves to even more potential for griefplay to name some of the ones that come up repeatedly. All of these are the result of player/community instituted actions, behaviors, and policies.
It seems that other players drive players away from player run organizations, particularly in High Sec. Is it that the NPC corps are the problem, or is it that the player corp landscape has been made so unattractive by the players?
CCP implements tools to alleviate some of the more glaring things, having an option for concord intervention in intercorp aggression, implementing more robust networking tools for players in the form of social corps; things that will directly increase the likelihood of being able to build some measure of the trust required to join a player corp and it is viewed as the end of days.
Why would or should they do anything with NPC corps to absolve the players of their culpability in the environment they themselves created? And when they do step in to address the things we are doing that are keeping players out of our own corps, we condemn the actions. Classic damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
Just now CCP are looking at their bottom line and foresee ugly things going on with it unless the game returns to growth. Yet their plan consists of doing more of the same, rather than develop areas of the game which ahve been unattended and unexploited since ever.
PvE and avatars, pick your choice. More PvP is not going to keep this old lady afloat, no matter how less noob-hostile you make it. The time for noob friendliness was when it was growing 4 years ago, not now when noobs have become a rare sighting and CCP advertises expansions with "resub now"...
The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
482
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 20:02:05 -
[137] - Quote
Kraxalious wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day...
Of course, if the FC logged you could have taken over as FC and fought the other gang if you wanted to. Instead of waiting for someone else to make fun for you, sometimes you have to take initiative and make your own fun.
You don't know null politics very well do you? If you're not an official FC then you don't do anything.
Faction warfare pilot and solo/small gang PVP advocate
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Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
6494
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 20:21:11 -
[138] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kraxalious wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day...
Of course, if the FC logged you could have taken over as FC and fought the other gang if you wanted to. Instead of waiting for someone else to make fun for you, sometimes you have to take initiative and make your own fun. You don't know null politics very well do you? If you're not an official FC then you don't do anything.
Sounds like a good reason not to go to nul then. Being told what you can and can't do in a video game by the players is not a very inviting way of getting people to come join you.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
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Totalrx
NA No Assholes
121
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 20:34:38 -
[139] - Quote
I've always thought that after a certain period of time (say 180 days) that a player be presented with two options:
1) Be automatically transferred to an NPC Corp that is enrolled in Faction Warfare
2) Join a player corp |
Kraxalious
Domini Caedis
1
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 20:52:27 -
[140] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kraxalious wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day...
Of course, if the FC logged you could have taken over as FC and fought the other gang if you wanted to. Instead of waiting for someone else to make fun for you, sometimes you have to take initiative and make your own fun. You don't know null politics very well do you? If you're not an official FC then you don't do anything.
He said he docked in an NPC station. Odds are if it was an official operation, it wouldn't be in NPC space and the FC wouldn't abandon his fleet in an NPC null station. In my experience, anyone can take out a roam as long as it doesn't conflict with alliance ops, however you wouldn't get SRP unless it was an official operation by an official FC.
So how do you learn to FC? Get some people together in cheap ships, let them know they might die and go on a roam. Usually there are plenty of bored people willing to lose a frigate or destroyer. If you die, oh well it's not like you lost much but you gain experience. After you run enough fleets and experience you will start winning more, people will trust you, and you can then take out more expensive stuff.
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Bud
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 20:59:07 -
[141] - Quote
Because I'm Bud the Stud and I do what I want |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
85
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 21:19:40 -
[142] - Quote
Kraxalious wrote:Caleb Seremshur wrote:Kraxalious wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:
I remember going out on a roam and we were all in Tech 2 ships or expensively fit Battle ships. We saw another nice sized fleet and I was already for a great fight. Suddenly our FC says "Quick, lets dock up in that NPC station. We don't want to risk our expensive ships". I'm like WTF we came out to fight.
So we sit here in station, and after 2 or 3 minutes, the FC says "I have to go for supper, you guys get home on your own" (15 jumps in Null) and he logs off.
I quit the corp that day...
Of course, if the FC logged you could have taken over as FC and fought the other gang if you wanted to. Instead of waiting for someone else to make fun for you, sometimes you have to take initiative and make your own fun. You don't know null politics very well do you? If you're not an official FC then you don't do anything. He said he docked in an NPC station. Odds are if it was an official operation, it wouldn't be in NPC space and the FC wouldn't abandon his fleet in an NPC null station. In my experience, anyone can take out a roam as long as it doesn't conflict with alliance ops, however you wouldn't get SRP unless it was an official operation by an official FC. So how do you learn to FC? Get some people together in cheap ships, let them know they might die and go on a roam. Usually there are plenty of bored people willing to lose a frigate or destroyer. If you die, oh well it's not like you lost much but you gain experience. After you run enough fleets and experience you will start winning more, people will trust you, and you can then take out more expensive stuff.
This is really good advice. FC'ing really just requires you to take out some fleets and learn from your successes and most importantly your failures. Some of the best FC's I've flown under have been some of the most average to below average individual players, but their understanding of what needs to be done, ability to formulate a winning strategy, how to communicate effectively, and keeping the fleet a cohesive unit; trumps any individual pilot skill anyone can bring to the table IMO. True some people may never cultivate these qualities and those that lack them tend to be horrible FC's, but a lot of these qualities are things that you can learn and strengthen as you go.
You don't have to be the Sun Tzu of Eve, most corps will be happy to follow anyone willing to take the responsibility of FC'ing into battle for the potential of action alone and will keep showing up for more as long as they're not an ass.
Fake it til ya make it.
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Vector Symian
0 Fear
481
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 00:45:26 -
[143] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:Vector Symian wrote:Hello and before I continue My main is Happily in the best corp in New Eden, The Scope
Reason may be...
-The Scope is a awesome mixed up community of peeps that may be a little too individualistic for corps mechanics
-They get to avoid griefer wardecs
- most corps go dead once their driving force is gone and then your stuck in a dead end corp but out of a skewed sense of loyalty you have stayed
-you can tell any boss in the chat to go *beep* themselves without consequence
-it make opposing mindset get to know each other
- they may be finding the peeps to get behind their own crazy idea
- peeps tend to be funnier and more real in scope chat
Scope Corp - Best Corp
return to us my children make the Leaders earn your loyalty find a decent player corp? sounds like you just join crappy corps
Find one?
why when I have Scope?
and the majority arnt the bad they just suffer from people having a life and that is always unavoidable
scope is immortal, scope continues and scope doesn't coddle
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Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
1125
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 01:11:23 -
[144] - Quote
There are many reasons why people stay in NPC corps. I doubt you will find them all here. As for finding ways to coax people out of NPC corps, good luck. The easiest way is to create a welcoming environment without judgment. RvB, Brave Newbies, even the New Order promote these environments. Why CCP doesn't do more to support and promote is a mystery.
This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
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Lienzo
Amanuensis
25
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 01:39:50 -
[145] - Quote
People stay in npc corps because they have no incentive to increase their avenues of exposure.
Ways that we could incentivize corp membership include:
- Differentiate personal and corporate standing effects.
- Mass-based docking fees for everyone.
- Incremental war decs. (System > constellation > region.)
- Limit character market orders on a per station basis, 1 slot per skill lvl.
- Expand corp market orders to several hundred per station.
- Enroll NPC corps in region-limited faction-warfare system.
- Make local chat opt-in at the corp settings level.
- Limit structure "launch for self" option.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
78
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 05:07:51 -
[146] - Quote
To all the folks who want to remove NPC corps or force people out via powerful incentives -
What will be the effect on the game when highsec becomes effectively the same as FW space due to certain entities wardeccing en masse? Trade hubs will become no mans lands unless you are affiliated with the dominant group of station huggers.
Forcing people with no interest in combat (or people like me that aren't part of an organization that can fight roving gangs of interceptors and HACs/strat cruisers/gilas etc.) to play target for content hungry veterans in all areas of the game is how you kill EVE.
"High-sec" would become meaningless as just like the other areas of the game it will be divided amongst blocs with the numbers and SP to control space.
Obviously CCP is never going to mess with NPC corps in this fashion because it would be monumentally stupid for player retention but that it's even suggested on a regular basis is troubling. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3147
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 05:35:57 -
[147] - Quote
For anyone thinking of moving from an NPC corp to a player corp, there are several questions they would like to see the answer to. Two that come to mind are:
What are the other members like?
How will I be treated?
At present, there is little way for a player to research the answer either of these questions. Looking at ads, or forum posts, tells you little. This is Eve, and all such information may just be a con. The only real way would be to join corp after corp and see. Many players would rather not bother, and put up with just staying in an NPC corp. Remember, this is a game. People play it for fun. Dealing with one group of jerks after another is not fun.
I suspect that many posters here advocating various methods of forcing players out of NPC corps are not looking to improve the game, they are trying to get more victims.
We need some way to more easily search for corps that fit a player's desires. I'm not sure that that would constitute.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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metalravenous
S0utherN Comfort
DARKNESS.
57
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 07:32:52 -
[148] - Quote
Main reason people stay in NPC corps is because people are idiots. Stay in NPC corps and you minimize time spent with idiots. |
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1898
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 07:46:13 -
[149] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
...I suspect that many posters here advocating various methods of forcing players out of NPC corps are not looking to improve the game, they are trying to get more victims....
Precisely this. I've yet to see one convincing argument in any of these threads (that keep popping up like weeds after a spring rain) as to what's so wrong with letting people play the damned game the way they want. If someone is happy paying their monthly sub fee to stay in an NPC corp and do their own thing in high sec, so what? These poorly thought out, ham-fisted ideas to force people out of NPC corps (or do anything else they don't find entertaining for that matter) will only cause people to either form single player corps or leave the game entirely.
While some of you hard cases may cheer the idea that the "weak" would be weeded out, leaving "your Eve" a garden of pure ideology filled with people who play the way that you approve, I think CCP knows there's no way such an Eve is in any way a viable business.
Bottom line: if you want more potential victims you should get more people playing Eve instead of trying to bully the folks already here.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Rhina Duna
Sisterhood of Sef Am-arr
1
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 09:59:50 -
[150] - Quote
One question....
How many NPC-Alts are just neutral-Alts of Null sec players?
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
206
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 10:01:45 -
[151] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:
Bottom line: if you want more potential victims you should get more people playing Eve instead of trying to bully the folks already here.
i agree with almost all you've said, but i tihnk the term bully is a little over the top and when did it become the players job to get more players into EVE ?
nothings changed at all, still people calling for the ole,, leave me alone and let me play the way i want, i pay for this. why should i not play how i want.
you play how the rules in the game let you, you might even bend some of them rules. what you don't do is show up and refuse to learn, refuse to adapt, refuse all advice given to you and then hop on the forums and demand huge changes be made to suit your personal style of play.
i've no issue with players wanting to play alone, or not want to be in a player run corp. so let them stay in their NPC corps and keep using the channels they created. i've said in a post already that i don't see an issue with giving them this stupid new group channel access,doesn't bother me (i'm just one person out of the community) because the truth is if someone wants to avoid a war dec they will. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 10:57:34 -
[152] - Quote
Rhina Duna wrote:One question....
How many NPC-Alts are just neutral-Alts of Null sec players?
*Alts of any player who quite logically don't see a need to expose any of their non-combat alts to nonconsensual pvp in highsec.
Literally the whole reason wardecs are stupid they only impact people too dumb to use NPC alts to manage their hisec affairs. Mainly newbies who aren't yet familiar with ALTS Online.
|
Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
270
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 11:31:27 -
[153] - Quote
Lienzo wrote:People stay in npc corps because they have no incentive to increase their avenues of exposure. Ways that we could incentivize corp membership include:
- Differentiate personal and corporate standing effects.
- Mass-based docking fees for everyone.
- Incremental war decs. (System > constellation > region.)
- Limit character market orders on a per station basis, 1 slot per skill lvl.
- Expand corp market orders to several hundred per station.
- Enroll NPC corps in region-limited faction-warfare system.
- Make local chat opt-in at the corp settings level.
- Limit structure "launch for self" option.
These are punishments. Not incentives. You need to reevaluate your entire thought process. |
David Therman
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 12:26:28 -
[154] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:For anyone thinking of moving from an NPC corp to a player corp, there are several questions they would like to see the answer to. Two that come to mind are:
What are the other members like?
How will I be treated?
At present, there is little way for a player to research the answer either of these questions. Looking at ads, or forum posts, tells you little. This is Eve, and all such information may just be a con. The only real way would be to join corp after corp and see. Many players would rather not bother, and put up with just staying in an NPC corp. Remember, this is a game. People play it for fun. Dealing with one group of jerks after another is not fun.
I suspect that many posters here advocating various methods of forcing players out of NPC corps are not looking to improve the game, they are trying to get more victims.
We need some way to more easily search for corps that fit a player's desires. I'm not sure that that would constitute.
This, 111%. I've seen some of the other starter corps (sort of relevant, I guess?) when rolling alts for various purposes, and If my first character had ended up in one of them, I probably would've moved on within a week. As it is, I've got to know a few people who play regularly and who I enjoy talking to, as well as the very occasional fleet op. I've been on the clan/guild carousel in other games before, and it's not a pleasant experience, so I'm only going to up sticks if I'm aware of what I'm getting into... and short of flying with a corp for a few weeks, there isn't a sure-fire way to know that.
If there's one gripe that I have, it's that getting a group en masse to go and do something, anything, is extremely difficult. In comparison to something like CAS do with their monthly roams, for example, there just isn't enough people who are interested. So in that regard, it can be quite stagnant, but seeing as there are public NPSI fleets run every now and again, I think I can live with that. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
110
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 15:55:19 -
[155] - Quote
Lienzo wrote:People stay in npc corps because they have no incentive to increase their avenues of exposure. Ways that we could incentivize corp membership include:
- Differentiate personal and corporate standing effects.
- Mass-based docking fees for everyone.
- Incremental war decs. (System > constellation > region.)
- Limit character market orders on a per station basis, 1 slot per skill lvl.
- Expand corp market orders to several hundred per station.
- Enroll NPC corps in region-limited faction-warfare system.
- Make local chat opt-in at the corp settings level.
- Limit structure "launch for self" option.
To sum up.
Force the way you play the game on others.
Wouldn't Eve cease to be a sandbox where they have the choice to play the way they want? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9796
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 15:59:36 -
[156] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Lienzo wrote:People stay in npc corps because they have no incentive to increase their avenues of exposure. Ways that we could incentivize corp membership include:
- Differentiate personal and corporate standing effects.
- Mass-based docking fees for everyone.
- Incremental war decs. (System > constellation > region.)
- Limit character market orders on a per station basis, 1 slot per skill lvl.
- Expand corp market orders to several hundred per station.
- Enroll NPC corps in region-limited faction-warfare system.
- Make local chat opt-in at the corp settings level.
- Limit structure "launch for self" option.
To sum up. Force the way you play the game on others. Wouldn't Eve cease to be a sandbox where they have the choice to play the way they want?
Limited the 'npc play' options in a game that is supposed to be player driven isn't 'forcing someone to play your way'. The whole "you want me to play your way" thing has never been more than a psychological defense mechanism for people who have found and advantageous situation and want to keep exploiting it.
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
1901
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 16:08:42 -
[157] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
i agree with almost all you've said, but i tihnk the term bully is a little over the top and when did it become the players job to get more players into EVE ?
nothings changed at all, still people calling for the ole,, leave me alone and let me play the way i want, i pay for this. why should i not play how i want.
you play how the rules in the game let you, you might even bend some of them rules. what you don't do is show up and refuse to learn, refuse to adapt, refuse all advice given to you and then hop on the forums and demand huge changes be made to suit your personal style of play.
i've no issue with players wanting to play alone, or not want to be in a player run corp. so let them stay in their NPC corps and keep using the channels they created. i've said in a post already that i don't see an issue with giving them this stupid new group channel access,doesn't bother me (i'm just one person out of the community) because the truth is if someone wants to avoid a war dec they will.
I don't see a new thread like the OP's being created every week by so-called carebears asking CCP to save them from the big bad PVPers. You may not consider it bullying but, for the love of all things holy, why all the rage from some quarters of the playerbase with regards to people playing solo/staying in NPC corps/preferring to play in high sec? That's what I see as over the top.
As for getting more people to play the game, of course ultimately it's CCP's responsibility as it's their business but hey, since some people are so passionate about the concept of the sandbox, player created content, etc. why wouldn't they want to spread the word about how awesome Eve is?
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
9796
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 16:16:30 -
[158] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:
I don't see a new thread like the OP's being created every week by so-called carebears asking CCP to save them from the big bad PVPers. You may not consider it bullying but, for the love of all things holy, why all the rage from some quarters of the playerbase with regards to people playing solo/staying in NPC corps/preferring to play in high sec? That's what I see as over the top.
No on is mad about 'solo players or 'npc corps' per se. What gets annoying is when those types expect this player driven mmo to cater to them. As a PVE player I know I'm playing a game deeply seated in the idea od 'PVP' (both in terms of combat, and in terms of it's general 'conflict culture'). I don't go around screaming "make the game more PVE, or at least shield me from PVP". But many solo/npc corp/high sec players lobby endlessly for advantages and protections without having to sacrifice the safety and comfort of what they are already doing.
Quote:
As for getting more people to play the game, of course ultimately it's CCP's responsibility as it's their business but hey, since some people are so passionate about the concept of the sandbox, player created content, etc. why wouldn't they want to spread the word about how awesome Eve is?
Because most people (especially most gamers) suck. Exclusivity is good both in game and in real life. The best restaurants and night clubs are the ones that are hard to get into, every thing else is this place. Nothing wrong with that place if you like that btw. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
210
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 16:17:37 -
[159] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:
I don't see a new thread like the OP's being created every week by so-called carebears asking CCP to save them from the big bad PVPers. You may not consider it bullying but, for the love of all things holy, why all the rage from some quarters of the playerbase with regards to people playing solo/staying in NPC corps/preferring to play in high sec? That's what I see as over the top.
As for getting more people to play the game, of course ultimately it's CCP's responsibility as it's their business but hey, since some people are so passionate about the concept of the sandbox, player created content, etc. why wouldn't they want to spread the word about how awesome Eve is?
so you don't agree that calling it bullying is make it out to be something terrible, done by terrible people. it's a game.
you assume too much, me personally, well i've been to fanfest 4 times, recruited my share of new guys to EVE. i didn't see it as a quest or a mission. no medal wanted,,,,,,, but yea, up to CCP to get more new meat for the grinder. |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
87
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 18:38:01 -
[160] - Quote
Bully:
noun
noun: bully; plural noun: bullies
1. a person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.
verb
verb: bully; 3rd person present: bullies; past tense: bullied; past participle: bullied; gerund or present participle: bullying
1. use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.
The feelings evoked by the action may vary from person to person, mainly who is or is not on the receiving end, but this person's word choice is not incorrect.
What did grief deccer's "think" they were doing?
That said it's a perfectly legitimate form of gameplay in the EVE environment if only because the rules and mechanics of EVE allow for it. Also few things in EVE non-consentual things in EVE could not be considered "bullying" technically. But we all do it. |
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Serene Repose
2257
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Posted - 2015.02.16 18:47:53 -
[161] - Quote
What ridiculous moron is still arguing this? People stay in NPC corps 'cause they don't TRUST YOU.
It's not rocket science, kids. AND, there IS no tooth fairy. (Read it and weep.)
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3153
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 19:10:45 -
[162] - Quote
Rhina Duna wrote:One question....
How many NPC-Alts are just neutral-Alts of Null sec players?
I suspect quite a few. Also, any player who typically is in a corp can have an NPC corp trader alt, or hauler alt, or scout alt. This is a separate issue: Experienced players hiding pilots and activities in NPC corps to avoid war decs.
The issue here is CCP has data that shows that players who never join a player corp tend to leave the game sooner than those players who do join. So the issue is player retention; ways to get those players more involved with the game, so they hang around longer.
I'm sure one way to NOT do this is to degrade their playing experience by making NPC corps worse. We need a way to get them into a situation they will like more than what they have right now.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1590
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 19:16:25 -
[163] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote: AND, there IS no tooth fairy. (Read it and weep.)
I got money for every tooth I put under my pillow so either there is a tooth fairy or she died in the last 20 years. |
Rhina Duna
Sisterhood of Sef Am-arr
1
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 21:47:44 -
[164] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Rhina Duna wrote:One question....
How many NPC-Alts are just neutral-Alts of Null sec players?
I suspect quite a few. Also, any player who typically is in a corp can have an NPC corp trader alt, or hauler alt, or scout alt. This is a separate issue: Experienced players hiding pilots and activities in NPC corps to avoid war decs. The issue here is CCP has data that shows that players who never join a player corp tend to leave the game sooner than those players who do join. So the issue is player retention; ways to get those players more involved with the game, so they hang around longer. I'm sure one way to NOT do this is to degrade their playing experience by making NPC corps worse. We need a way to get them into a situation they will like more than what they have right now.
i'ts my point....
and also the point where the problems begins ... and this is like Squaring the circle.
I think alot of "New Generation" players are not willing to play a game wich need years of being involved to reach High Skills.
Another "problem" is the level of ingame criminality. You and all older players know that.
But newbies wich got scammed by joining a corp, will leave quickly or stay in NPC corp or create a one man corp.
In this case they will probably get wardecced, killed and leave.
It is partly a Generation problem, ..."everything has to go quick"
The biggest problem are the 5/6 months after tutorials.
More corps like Brave Newbies and Eve University should coach the newcomers.
Help to avoid things like that: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=404751&find=unread
and more newcomers will stay.
EVE is hard and brutal, that's wy i love it.
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Juno Rook
Perkone
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 00:50:54 -
[165] - Quote
maybe I'm wrong but I thought games are supposed to be enjoyable ?
Everyone enjoy's playing differently. Why should it be required that I have to pick choice A when choice D fits me much better. And why should I be forced to do so ?
The game mechanics allow me to play however I like, when I like, and with who I like.
I like sitting in a belt pew pewing rocks or if I'm bored with that I go over and pew pew rats. All the while I'm listening to my favorite music ( Not some moron yelling at me to hurry the F up ) . I get excited when some ship rolls up that looks a little suspicious.
I do this for an hour or two each night, because I have a RL life and not much time left for " Required " corp stuff. My comp is a little old and my internet connection a little s***y so I lag like a SOB, so fleet ops are out.
So basically I love sitting around using my game time ( That I payed for ) however I choose. Enjoying being in gorgeous space environment, in a ship I made or bought with hard earned isk, shooting the breeze with random folks in npc chat.
Don't like how I play, tough. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6543
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 02:13:41 -
[166] - Quote
At least now they will only be able to gank you, instead of trying to ... well ganking you.
EDIT: THey might hyperdunk.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Glathull
Warlock Assassins
940
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 04:02:01 -
[167] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:For anyone thinking of moving from an NPC corp to a player corp, there are several questions they would like to see the answer to. Two that come to mind are:
What are the other members like?
How will I be treated?
At present, there is little way for a player to research the answer either of these questions. Looking at ads, or forum posts, tells you little. This is Eve, and all such information may just be a con. The only real way would be to join corp after corp and see. Many players would rather not bother, and put up with just staying in an NPC corp. Remember, this is a game. People play it for fun. Dealing with one group of jerks after another is not fun.
I suspect that many posters here advocating various methods of forcing players out of NPC corps are not looking to improve the game, they are trying to get more victims.
We need some way to more easily search for corps that fit a player's desires. I'm not sure that that would constitute.
I suspect this could be some of the motivation behind these so-called social corps that are being discussed. It would not surprisee me if these became places where people can get to know other players with similar interests and that after some time flying together and talking together while in NPC corps, people decide to form their own player corps.
I'm not suggesting that's the only reason for them or that it would be all that successful, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's a thought.
I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
262
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 04:13:17 -
[168] - Quote
I'm in my NPC Corp for a few reasons..
There's lots of good people in some of the NPC Corps.. both mains that never leave, and alts of people elsewhere in the game, that stay there and help out.
I'm immune from Corp Drama. The political side that is.
I'm immune from AWOX'ing.
I'm immune from Wardecs.
And whatever I do, be it PVE or PVP, I'm fully able to do without being in the same corp as the others. PvE stuff is often managed through private channels. And when I PvP it's NPSI, so I just need to be in the fleet.
It costs a little bit if isk thanks to tax, but the benefits more than make up for that loss.
I'm not saying it's for everyone. I'm not against Joining a player corp if it's the right people, but for me, now, remaining NPC is fine for my playstyle. |
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
84
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 04:23:03 -
[169] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:1. you can use out of Corp alts to manage logistics, buys and sales, etc.
yes, because everyone has alts to use...using alts for everything should not be one of the main reasons to do something on your 'mains'
Scipio Artelius wrote:2. So what? Why is a wardec by a 1-2 person Corp bad? What level of threat does it really present and even if pvp happens, what's the worst that happens?
Yeaup....because nobody ever corp-hop's into said 1 man corps to get those easy unsuspecting kills...nope...never...
Scipio Artelius wrote:Being in a player run Corp is so beneficial to play in this game compared to solo play and NPC Corps, that the negatives of a wardec are miniscule by comparison, especially if the war is managed well internally.
How is it sooo much more beneficial? At this point 100% of all industry/research related things can very easily be done in public stations, nobody can wardec you, the only way you can be shot at in a non-consensual manner is by gankers, you can literally do almost everything in game. (including group play, as the NPC Corps are larger groups of players than most player corps)
I'm not exactly seeing too many 'cons' in the list of things one can do in an NPC corp compared to a player corp. I just see alot of the same lists of activities, except they all have much less risk whilst in an NPC Corp. |
Dave Stark
7360
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 10:15:50 -
[170] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
no, because we told them for a long time about how broken neutral logi was with regards to awoxing and they did nothing about it.
they're just using it as some poor excuse to trivialise high sec recruitment because apparently ****** corps hoovering up new players is better than npc corps. not quite sure how that works out but i'd genuinely rather be in an unwardeccable npc corp than surrounded by largely inactive, disinterested, and obviously clueless retards in a corp that will leave you high and dry when you get inevitably wardecced.
or maybe i'm just a cynic. |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
132
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 13:00:48 -
[171] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
The issue here is CCP has data that shows that players who never join a player corp tend to leave the game sooner than those players who do join. So the issue is player retention; ways to get those players more involved with the game, so they hang around longer.
This point is brought up again and again without reflection. A correlation between two numbers does not mean that there is a dependency. It could well be, that people staying in NPC corps and quit early will also quit early if they are forced to join a player corp. And the other way round, that people joining player corps are willing to commit to an agenda and a social group in general and therefore stay longer. My guess is that the majority of players staying in NPC corps are doing that for a reason.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Jallukola
40
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 13:08:47 -
[172] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
The issue here is CCP has data that shows that players who never join a player corp tend to leave the game sooner than those players who do join.
I'd love to see this data, for actual proof, and where and what is such "data" based on. As long as CCP isn't releasing numbers and concretical evidence of such behaviour, it's just spewing bullshit.
The greatest battle music of all time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67MPxnPHBNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16RCvtziXj0
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CrouchingTiger HiddenIbis
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 15:22:51 -
[173] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
In a small corp, like those set up between a few friends, a war dec is a death blow. Newbies or pve'rs cannot compete against someone who does nothing but pvp and who knows all the tricks. No amount of "just go out and die a load of times" will change that. Unless you are a masocist, endlessly losing is not fun.
If and when a war dec arrives, these newbies log off and go play something else. I have 150+ games in my steam library, i don't need to be here. I'll come back in a few weeks and wait for it to blow over.
Joining a larger corp means following someone elses rules, which is counter productive to the desire to wanting to play with your friends however you see fit. |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
87
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 15:36:05 -
[174] - Quote
Jallukola wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:
The issue here is CCP has data that shows that players who never join a player corp tend to leave the game sooner than those players who do join.
I'd love to see this data, for actual proof, and where and what is such "data" based on. As long as CCP isn't releasing numbers and concretical evidence of such behaviour, it's just spewing bullshit.
Not to mention even if you take it at face value it doesn't really indicate how much longer the people that stay in the player corps are staying. 6 months longer? Do they hit that magic 2-3 year mark MMO's shoot for? But from a business standpoint another month of subscription money is another month of subscription money.
Why people quit at the end of the day is more important than them quitting, that is the important information. You can scramble all day making changes to your product based on why you "think" people are doing something, but it is probably not a good idea
.
I also doubt getting more people in player corp is some magic bullet.
CCP really needs to look at the game from the ground up and identify ways that they can cultivate a sandbox where we can kick over sandcastles, but our ability to kick them over should be eternally balanced by a comparable risk of having our own obliterated. Over the years of power creep and mechanics I think this is really where the game is out of whack a bit. New people staying in NPC corps is just an example of this.
Current state of the game makes joining a corp in High Sec pretty much suicide because there are not just one or two, but many veteran entities that can smack you around at will, your choices being to undock in your T1 frigs, Cruisers, and Dessies fight back and learn (translation: whelp and die in a ball of fire to T3's, Boosts, Station Games and Neutral Logi and feed your enemies' ego) or just avoid all that by staying in an NPC corp.
Ideally the idea would be to provide incentive to if not leave the NPC corp for a player organization, at least get players interacting so that can become more likely despite the playerbase actively promoting new players to stay in NPC corps. Concord intervention in inter-corp aggression and social corps may help with some of this. It may not.
It is a good thing to see CCP taking an interest in at least trying to balance things.
Addressing the issue by nerfing or removing the only real refuge a new player has in getting their feet under them without being some faceless cog in a megablob alliance or just playing another game and simultaneously giving all the weasels in the henhouse more chickens to eat is certainly not in a new player's interest. It is in the interest of the people exacerbating the problem in the first place.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1592
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 16:04:08 -
[175] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Shailagh wrote:They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason? no, because we told them for a long time about how broken neutral logi was with regards to awoxing and they did nothing about it. they're just using it as some poor excuse to trivialise high sec recruitment because apparently ****** corps hoovering up new players is better than npc corps. not quite sure how that works out but i'd genuinely rather be in an unwardeccable npc corp than surrounded by largely inactive, disinterested, and obviously clueless retards in a corp that will leave you high and dry when you get inevitably wardecced. or maybe i'm just a cynic.
They are betting your interaction with random corp X will be at least a bit more meaningful than Caldari Provision and such. Somehow you applied to a corp so you should connect a bit more with it's member than the one where you were dumped because of your character creation selections.
I really don't know if it will work but CCP is obviously thinking the bet is at least worth taking. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6543
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 16:54:15 -
[176] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:Jallukola wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:
The issue here is CCP has data that shows that players who never join a player corp tend to leave the game sooner than those players who do join.
I'd love to see this data, for actual proof, and where and what is such "data" based on. As long as CCP isn't releasing numbers and concretical evidence of such behaviour, it's just spewing bullshit. Not to mention even if you take it at face value it doesn't really indicate how much longer the people that stay in the player corps are staying. 6 months longer? Do they hit that magic 2-3 year mark MMO's shoot for? But from a business standpoint another month of subscription money is another month of subscription money. Why people quit at the end of the day is more important than them quitting, that is the important information. You can scramble all day making changes to your product based on why you "think" people are doing something, but it is probably not a good idea . I also doubt getting more people in player corp is some magic bullet.
Does this mean all the people who join eve for 3 days and don't finish the turotial, then just quit never join a corp? Or even look at it. Surprising...
Because really actual newbies don't know all the advantages of a npc corp, or the disadvantages of a player corp. They just don't know, period. (Though it helps that in help channels and NPC corp chat, people say "don't join a player corp unless you really know what you're getting into")
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6543
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 16:59:34 -
[177] - Quote
Also, let's start one of those full api discussions. NPC corps don't need those, perhaps something could be done there
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
MajorisBR
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 23:18:28 -
[178] - Quote
I don't want to do my incursions while being wardeced. |
OverlordY
Interspan
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 00:04:45 -
[179] - Quote
Cause its to easy for bored PVPers to grief a small player corp out of eve.
People stay in NPC corps cause they can't play the damm game due to griefing wars. |
DaReaper
Net 7
1787
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 00:14:35 -
[180] - Quote
I did not read this at all, but i'll say this... as a 10 year vet i stayed in an npc corp all of 14 days when i joined, once my trial was up and a subed i made my own corp. Been in either my corp or a player corp ever sense.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 06:46:48 -
[181] - Quote
Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. |
Nami Kumamato
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
519
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 10:36:31 -
[182] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Because:
It's all about playstyle and how much time you have to dedicate to this.
I can put it 2 max 3 hours a day (at best), probably 4 in the weekends.
Doing it causally like this kinda makes me wanna stick to my own endeavors, as I'd hate to lose the little time I have fighting someone else's wars and being screamed at in comms or waiting for the fleet to form and deploy because "they hurt little Jimmy" or "we need to kill the heathens - God wills it!"
I have no interest in PvP - even my first and only kill was obtained in self defense (PvP Asteros are not as strong as Explo Asteros apparently :P).
Being solo has been quite profitable and it allowed me to achieve what I wanted to achieve, so far. And I'm doing it while fully enjoying the sights and sounds of this universe.
Plus I spent 15 Euros to play how I like so if you're telling me I'm doing it wrong or I should do it otherwise - OK, I will do it how you want it or you think it's best, but then you gotta cough up the 15s. My money, my time, my playstyle.
Also there's enough content for everybody so I don't think that being solo is a prime reason for quitting EVE. It kept me entertained so far, and it doesn't seem to get any worse.
" And now my ship is oh so cloaked and fit -
I never felt so good, I never felt so hid ! "
- Ramona McCandless, Untitled
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6543
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 13:43:06 -
[183] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else.
So, you'd support just removing them then?
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:23:56 -
[184] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. So, you'd support just removing them then?
I don't know. They drive action in highsec and can produce good fights in cases like RvB or the CODE/Marmite ruckus.
But the majority of the time the war mechanism just seems a way for experienced players who are starved for "content" to explode people who really haven't got a clue what's going on. Often and in great numbers.
I mean, can you really take issue with my point? An intelligent player who gets wardecced is simply not going to show his face in highsec. "There's an alt for that." Unless it's specifically to look for a fight and he will be prepared for that. The other 95%...Start checking random highsec PVE corps for active wars you will see alot of trade hub hugging mercs on the other end who only leave the undock to hunt down meta 2 fit barges or mission boats with strategic cruisers and interceptors; you know, like they're actually hunting something dangerous. People talk about risk v reward...where's the risk in this? The killboards tell the tale.
I don't know how to fix it. The root of the problem is just human nature - tons of easy targets in highsec vs. smaller numbers of hard targets elsewhere. I think this game would be more interesting if more of the veterans played the white knight instead of the bad guy - but the latter is easier and far more rewarding to the common internet mindset that thrives on disproportionately angry reactions from the aggrieved.
I can think of two improvements right off, one of which is fairly uncontroversial.
Making the new player experience more reflective of the actual game would help a lot I think. Incorporate concepts like tracking, transversal, sig/speed tanking, different fighting styles (kite vs brawl etc.) into the NPE at least in a limited fashion. Work in some knowledge about locator agents and pvp mechanics. Make some of the career missions actually challenging at least requiring a competent fit to complete.
My other idea, to which people will just say "no," is to institute some kind of safety buffer zone around highsec station. If you want to farm kills in highsec, you have to commit outside station docking range, and whatever backup you have waiting in the wings has to do the same, so if things go badly it's no longer just a matter of de-aggressing and surviving long enough to dock. Cut down on the station games, force people to show a little more creativity than suspect baiting the undock all day or waiting for wartargets to pop up. Kills of other human players' ships and pods are more valuable than virtual monies and should be harder to achieve.
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Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
88
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:34:22 -
[185] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. So, you'd support just removing them then?
Customs Offices would be invincible I believe once they are put up unless concord ignores aggression on player owned structures.
Concluding he's advocating removing them from his statement though is a bit of a leap. He may or may not, but I don't see how you get that from that statement. You can just as easily tweak the mechanic in a way that it is not so ruinous to newbie corps.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3156
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:36:21 -
[186] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. So, you'd support just removing them then?
There is the concept of "corp lite". That is a player corp that:
Cannot be part of any war. Not as an aggressor, or defender, or ally.
Cannot have any in-space assets, such as a POS or a POCO.
Cannot join an alliance.
Has a CONCORD tax. Less than if you are in an NPC corp, but more than zero.
At least it would be a place to park your rear end that is marginally better than an NPC corp. Less tax, and the chance to join a group more in-tune with your interests.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
86
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:41:59 -
[187] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. So, you'd support just removing them then? There is the concept of "corp lite". That is a player corp that: Cannot be part of any war. Not as an aggressor, or defender, or ally. Cannot have any in-space assets, such as a POS or a POCO. Cannot join an alliance. Has a CONCORD tax. Less than if you are in an NPC corp, but more than zero. At least it would be a place to park your rear end that is marginally better than an NPC corp. Less tax, and the chance to join a group more in-tune with your interests.
I think this is happening with "social" corps though I do not know exactly what characteristics they will have.
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Kamahl Daikun
Back To Basics.
42
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:51:30 -
[188] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:Shailagh wrote:virm pasuul wrote:trolling is prohibited You are in an npc corp. See has FACTS and DATA proving you will quit eve before i do. Join a player corp, give ccp money. If you sid join a corp id wardec ur ass into oblivion though and youd still prob quit THIS attitude is why some players stay in NPC corps, because the second they leave its all "noob lulz trololol give me isk and i dubble for u" and other such infantile harassment, they arent made to feel welcome. There are so few corps out there who willa actually take a newbie and NOT use them as fodder and laugh at them for it, that the chances of a noobie finding a community to join is low as limbo goes. almost makes me want to restart my old lowsec pirate corp, but of course then I remember all of the annoying trolls who DID join for pvp, harass all the noobs who joined until they left the corp to go back to highsec or left the game entirely unfortuenately the most vocal part of this community is the most toxic, like, id rather swap spit with a xenomorph kind of toxis
This post definitely has merit to it.
Then again, staying in High Sec all day pretty much makes you untargetable unless whoever wants to kill you has the ship and skills to rek you before Concord shows up or has enough friends to make the KM cover the loss of ships. War Decs are basically High Sec PvP. You can moderately protect yourself from it and keep yourself safe, it's just a hassle.
Then again, I've only ever joined Low/Null Sec Corps, aside from my new WH Corp, and I've watched waves of people spamming us with pointless War Decs. Maybe I just don't see the problem with it since i live in the more profitable part of space.
Hell, I've run Lvl 4's in a RNI in Frarn with half a dozen War Decs and never had anyone show up. Seems like it's just a Jita-like populated High Sec problem. |
Bel Tika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
311
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 17:52:12 -
[189] - Quote
I made a wrong choice when i started the game an basically joined a corp i shouldn't have, after that no one worth there salt would recruit me cause they thought i was a spy lol so i just gave up, now i just drift between the stars man :P |
Prince Kobol
2449
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 18:40:39 -
[190] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else. So, you'd support just removing them then?
I can certainly see the day CCP do remove them.
If they keep hemorrhaging new players at the rate they are as well as losing existing players they might have to.
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Drazok
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 01:03:17 -
[191] - Quote
I see the idea behind wardecs, but the reality is they are used first and foremost as a harassment tool.
Thought even with out wardecs you lose players to **** like what happend to me last night
I was suicide ganked and poded in a .6 while mining. I;ve have played for awhile so I get why it happened. Had i been a new player I would have probably unsubed before the guy posted the kill mail.
the game is just not new player friendly, **** its not even old player friendly. Its not that its a bad game, thought the issue of new players never being able to catch up is problematic. |
Givi Oskold
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 03:31:15 -
[192] - Quote
Well, how about a different perspective on getting rid of NPC corporations. As a new player, it's almost impossible to get into a corporation since we don't show up with 20 mil skill points so we can't fit fleet doctrines or hold our own even in small groups in low sec or null.
Since the bulk of EVE characters seems to be alts for other players (such is the rumor anyway), the lack of trust is also an obstacle since the first thing every one assumes is "spy". That tends to be a problem too.
That's all based on the idea that you can even find a corp to contact since the corp finder is at best weak and what little else there is comes down to random luck if you can actually find somebody interested in taking you on. Good luck with that, because you will definitely need a lot of luck to do it.
If you get into a corp that NOT just the equivalent of a player run NPC corp, all you end up doing is skill training and waiting until a groups will take you on.
As it is, the new player experience is rough but finding a decent corp that offers the chance to actually do something at low skill points is a freakin' nightmare.
Thus, new players tend to sit in NPC corps and train skills while trying to kill the boredom by running slightly less boring missions or scanning for scraps that nobody else will even bother with. Or mining. Mining, because that's a huge draw in the gaming community. :p
I should clarify that I'm not against mining or industry in any way. However, it should be part of the game, not the only thing left that you might be able to do while trying to do something else. However, if you love mining then I tip my hat to you for providing a vital service to the community. o7
NPC corps offer the only other possible social experience in EVE. If you get rid of it, the new player experience consists of getting a ship and being ignored until you have no "game" time left. CCP might just as well delete the trial and subscribe features to the game at that point.
So, like it or not, you NEED those NPC corps just to provide a place for those who aren't anywhere else. It isn't like EVE players greet new players with open arms. Not even close. |
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 07:58:57 -
[193] - Quote
Drazok wrote:I see the idea behind wardecs, but the reality is they are used first and foremost as a harassment tool.
Way back when, that other sandbox called Star Wars Galaxies also had wardecs... any guild could declare war on any other guild, even if they belonged to the same faction. There was one crucial difference that made it actually fun, though: the guild leader of the guild that was 'attacked' actually had to accept the war for it to activate, and both parties could end the war instantly if agreed rules of engagement were broken.
We had several fairly massive faction wars (600+ v 600+), with all rebel PVP guilds declaring on all imperial PVP guilds, and even just 'let's kill stuff wars' with all PVPers randomly joining a Red guild or a Blue guild, independent of faction (note: husband versus wife and mutual gankage leading to very amusing TS audio clips)...Point being, those who wanted to fight, fought. Those who didn't want to, didn't. And fun was had by all.
I really wouldn't mind seeing the current EVE system replaced by the SWG system. |
Givi Oskold
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 08:09:30 -
[194] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:Drazok wrote:I see the idea behind wardecs, but the reality is they are used first and foremost as a harassment tool. Way back when, that other sandbox called Star Wars Galaxies also had wardecs... any guild could declare war on any other guild, even if they belonged to the same faction. There was one crucial difference that made it actually fun, though: the guild leader of the guild that was 'attacked' actually had to accept the war for it to activate, and both parties could end the war instantly if agreed rules of engagement were broken. We had several fairly massive faction wars (600+ v 600+), with all rebel PVP guilds declaring on all imperial PVP guilds, and even just 'let's kill stuff wars' with all PVPers randomly joining a Red guild or a Blue guild, independent of faction (note: husband versus wife and mutual gankage leading to very amusing TS audio clips)...Point being, those who wanted to fight, fought. Those who didn't want to, didn't. And fun was had by all. I really wouldn't mind seeing the current EVE system replaced by the SWG system.
I work with a guy who was a total nut about SWG in the early days. They really did a lot of things right. They did a lot of things wrong too, but all companies are guilty of that to various extents.
I think EVE is a very good game and that's why people keep playing it even with its' faults. Tbh, I think the player sov holder alliances are the main weakness to the game. Go ahead and hate, but setting everybody blue is stupid.
|
soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 11:44:38 -
[195] - Quote
There is a real issue of correlation being incorrectly viewed as causality here. The correlation between players leaving the game having not joined PCs does not mean there is any type of causal relationship. I can think of many explanations from actual exposure to new players in rookie help as to why correlation exists but no causality. Many of them have to do with the most recent MMO player profile.
Newer MMO players in general have no intent of ever staying with any MMO for the long term. They view MMOs as console games to be played to an some end point and then leaving and playing another one. The tools that many of us see to create community they see as just chat added to their console game and cringe at the idea of cooperative game play with others. This is exhibited several ways. They view subscriptions as being charged again and again for the same console game content, not as investing in continuing quality environment. They want a single price to play like a console game, or they want FTP, or they want to work in game to play. Just go watch rookie chat for any length of time. There is a constant stream of how can I earn enough to get plex to leave trial and never have to pay the subscription price? They want to know why in the world a game would allow solo WH exploration or solo .2 sec mining to have the chance of losing their gear they have spent ever isk to get. They are leaving because they were always going to leave and they aren't joining PCs because they were always going to leave and they never viewed PC play as part of completing the console content. EVE Online is absolutely the worse game for this new type of MMO wannabe console player.
Now as far as my own reasons for not joining PCs in the same fashion as I have in the past.
I have come left and come back to EVE many times since 2007, in the past my character that I intended to get the most out of game immersion has been my main and has been the one that would join a LS or NS PC.
I have been in NS many times and never had to provide anything more than the old limited API, corporate security was a matter of roles and through interaction with and inclusion of the entire PC member base.
But this is no longer an environment where that is the case. PCs that have no knowledge or willingness to properly use roles are insisting on full APIs well because others do it, so we should to, is complete BS. They don't know what they actually need vs what they don't because they don't know what to do with any of it. But there is a huge risk of what they could do with the information if things don't go well and you go separate ways later. Things that had nothing to do with corp security can then be used against you later because they got the full API and know a lot about your style of play, what you own, what you do, where you live.
Then there is the whole fact that having any corp history in and of itself is now a dangerous thing. If you joined a corp that didn't work out for any reason, that corp's CEO and directors can say whatever they want about you when you try to join another corp. You better join the right corp the first time because your character will not get a second chance without being tainted.
So today the choices are try and join a hyper-paranoid corp that is going to meta-scrub every second of your history and treat you like a criminal from day one or give way too much information to people who don't know what to do with it until they want to screw YOU. Hence, why people frequently post on alts that will never do anything in game because just posting can have negative consequences later to joining a corp.
So now my sad undesired solution is that my high SP characters that should be in PC but because they have any history at all (that would not have affected my play now) will now be in NPC corps where they will not have to risk having information about their activities abused in the future. I have started a brand new account with a brand new character with an API that will essentially be devoid of informational value. I neither want to steal nor AWOX, but this is a game and I will not subject myself to a rectal exam to join a corp. Corps should be using the proper tools for corporate security, roles and knowing your members. And if you are too big to know and involve your members, well what kind of community is that anyway. |
Zada Ozuwara
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 12:40:58 -
[196] - Quote
I thought the whole point of a sandbox game was that players could choose their own path? If I want to log in occasionally and blow up a few red plus signs in peace, how am I hurting the game?
|
Kuhaku Blank
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 13:39:59 -
[197] - Quote
im a returning player after years ago and 1 of the corps I applied to for FW, I had to apply online, apply in the game, wait in their public channel to be called for an interview then go to their mumble and do the interview.
A Wormhole corp I applied to at the same time has stated that I am suspicious because I have 2 untrained charcters on my account from way back when I was toying with different weapons before I quit which marks me as a spy. |
Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
128
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 13:54:01 -
[198] - Quote
Kuhaku Blank wrote:im a returning player after years ago and 1 of the corps I applied to for FW, I had to apply online, apply in the game, wait in their public channel to be called for an interview then go to their mumble and do the interview.
A Wormhole corp I applied to at the same time has stated that I am suspicious because I have 2 untrained charcters on my account from way back when I was toying with different weapons before I quit which marks me as a spy.
yeah, just move one from these corps. Ignore them. There are so many corps that deal with people much better.
In fact, the corps attitude to recruitment process is a good indication of what they will be like when in corp - learn now, don't join.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
|
Angharad Neve
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 13:58:32 -
[199] - Quote
They should make it so you can only be a member of an NPC corp for say one month. After that you have to join a player run corp of your own choice, start your own corp, or get syphoned into a holding corp with same characteristics as a player run corp. Player run corps are more fun anyway. At the very least they usually have less taxes than NPC corps. |
soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 14:00:36 -
[200] - Quote
Kuhaku Blank wrote:im a returning player after years ago and 1 of the corps I applied to for FW, I had to apply online, apply in the game, wait in their public channel to be called for an interview then go to their mumble and do the interview.
A Wormhole corp I applied to at the same time has stated that I am suspicious because I have 2 untrained charcters on my account from way back when I was toying with different weapons before I quit which marks me as a spy.
And in the meantime they now both know all the details of your activities, assets and entire history of email in EVE, plus now if you apply again somewhere else if the WH corp accused you of being an attempted spy through eve-mail that will be forever viewable by others that you give your full API to - and they probably won't even look further, they will accept that inaccurate assessment.
This type of activity will be the number one reason for returning players staying in npc and possibly leaving the game again. The cause has nothing to do with returning players not trying to join pc but not being permitted to join out of paranoia. |
|
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Angharad Neve
The Scope
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 14:04:52 -
[201] - Quote
Givi Oskold wrote:Well, how about a different perspective on getting rid of NPC corporations. As a new player, it's almost impossible to get into a corporation since we don't show up with 20 mil skill points so we can't fit fleet doctrines or hold our own even in small groups in low sec or null.
Since the bulk of EVE characters seems to be alts for other players (such is the rumor anyway), the lack of trust is also an obstacle since the first thing every one assumes is "spy". That tends to be a problem too.
That's all based on the idea that you can even find a corp to contact since the corp finder is at best weak and what little else there is comes down to random luck if you can actually find somebody interested in taking you on. Good luck with that, because you will definitely need a lot of luck to do it.
If you get into a corp that NOT just the equivalent of a player run NPC corp, all you end up doing is skill training and waiting until a groups will take you on.
As it is, the new player experience is rough but finding a decent corp that offers the chance to actually do something at low skill points is a freakin' nightmare.
Thus, new players tend to sit in NPC corps and train skills while trying to kill the boredom by running slightly less boring missions or scanning for scraps that nobody else will even bother with. Or mining. Mining, because that's a huge draw in the gaming community. :p
I should clarify that I'm not against mining or industry in any way. However, it should be part of the game, not the only thing left that you might be able to do while trying to do something else. However, if you love mining then I tip my hat to you for providing a vital service to the community. o7
NPC corps offer the only other possible social experience in EVE. If you get rid of it, the new player experience consists of getting a ship and being ignored until you have no "game" time left. CCP might just as well delete the trial and subscribe features to the game at that point.
So, like it or not, you NEED those NPC corps just to provide a place for those who aren't anywhere else. It isn't like EVE players greet new players with open arms. Not even close.
EVE University, Brave Newbies, Red vs, Blue, Factional Warfare corps. Just four solutions to your problems. |
soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 14:06:03 -
[202] - Quote
Angharad Neve wrote:They should make it so you can only be a member of an NPC corp for say one month. After that you have to join a player run corp of your own choice, start your own corp, or get syphoned into a holding corp with same characteristics as a player run corp. Player run corps are more fun anyway. At the very least they usually have less taxes than NPC corps.
Yes, because the sandbox you want should be the sandbox everyone else has to play in. |
soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 14:12:30 -
[203] - Quote
Angharad Neve wrote:
EVE University, Brave Newbies, Red vs, Blue, Factional Warfare corps. Just four solutions to your problems.
E-UNI was one of my best experiences ever in EVE and likely kept me around longer because of what I learned (and that knowledge probably even keeps me coming back). Though I do wonder now how many corps would view that history negatively nowadays... |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 15:05:57 -
[204] - Quote
Mainly to avoid altering my sandbox with the whims, and litter of OP like-minded CEOs.
In an NPC corp there is no schedule, no set game role, no drama, no hierarchy, no obligation, no awoxing etc.
It's a game not a job.
If life inside a Corp is so great you better start wondering why most players need to have at least one NPC corp alt. |
Serene Repose
2378
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 15:56:34 -
[205] - Quote
Ahar! Look. When this thread began I said it's because people are following the number one rule of EVE - trust no one.
Even after saying that, look at the avalanche of text that followed. Everyone seems to have their own well-considered logical explanation (most of which condemn the new player) when everyone knows what I said is true. Why? It could
only be for one reason. They're trying to get you to TRUST THEM.
"Come into my parlor," said the spider to the fly.
Don't let them fool you. You can't trust one of the lot.
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
|
Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
128
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 16:51:48 -
[206] - Quote
Givi Oskold wrote:Well, how about a different perspective on getting rid of NPC corporations. As a new player, it's almost impossible to get into a corporation since we don't show up with 20 mil skill points so we can't fit fleet doctrines or hold our own even in small groups in low sec or null.
Since the bulk of EVE characters seems to be alts for other players (such is the rumor anyway), the lack of trust is also an obstacle since the first thing every one assumes is "spy". That tends to be a problem too.
That's all based on the idea that you can even find a corp to contact since the corp finder is at best weak and what little else there is comes down to random luck if you can actually find somebody interested in taking you on. Good luck with that, because you will definitely need a lot of luck to do it.
If you get into a corp that NOT just the equivalent of a player run NPC corp, all you end up doing is skill training and waiting until a groups will take you on.
As it is, the new player experience is rough but finding a decent corp that offers the chance to actually do something at low skill points is a freakin' nightmare.
Thus, new players tend to sit in NPC corps and train skills while trying to kill the boredom by running slightly less boring missions or scanning for scraps that nobody else will even bother with. Or mining. Mining, because that's a huge draw in the gaming community. :p
I should clarify that I'm not against mining or industry in any way. However, it should be part of the game, not the only thing left that you might be able to do while trying to do something else. However, if you love mining then I tip my hat to you for providing a vital service to the community. o7
NPC corps offer the only other possible social experience in EVE. If you get rid of it, the new player experience consists of getting a ship and being ignored until you have no "game" time left. CCP might just as well delete the trial and subscribe features to the game at that point.
So, like it or not, you NEED those NPC corps just to provide a place for those who aren't anywhere else. It isn't like EVE players greet new players with open arms. Not even close.
thing is, what you're missing, is that eve is for the mature gamer. The game isn't laid out infornt of you with a path to follow. there aren't progressions you need to follow, your future is not written before you join. Your future in EVE is what you make it. It's down to you to put the effort in. To find that group of people you enjoy spending time with. To learn how to find that group. In short, it's entirely up to you what you do in EVE. The journey is what makes EVE so unique and amazing.
If you don't like putting in effort to find stuff you like doing, or finding people you like. Or if you're not able to do that, then EVE is not a game for you. EVE takes effort, dedication and commitment. But the rewards are epic. 11 years of epic for me, with many different threads.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
|
Faylee Freir
Defining Harassment
Slaver's Union
63
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 17:35:38 -
[207] - Quote
I enjoy being a villain. I'm still learning everyday, but I enjoy hunting and stalking war targets (even if most of them are miners and missioners). I like extortion and the content I create for myself and others. I don't target newbros, nor is it my goal to cause someone to have a bad day. Sure, you just had your faction-fit battleship blown up by my Ishkur and now you're upset. This is EVE! There are causes and effects just like there are choices an consequences. Saying that wardecs drive people to npc corps is a joke. The real reason people leave player corps when wardec'd is something hey can continue to play in their own self-absorbed world where less risk is best risk. I'm not crying that people can shrug off my dec like its nothing... I'm more or less complaining that were playing a unique game where instead of fighting back or takin action in another way, we seek risk-adverse solutions through nerfing what makes eve online so unique.
The new player experience is most definitely a huge obstacle to overcome... There are plenty of options for newbros to learn even among vets. You are looking in the wrong places. I will even put my money where my mouth is:
If you are new, not new, or whatever you consider yourself; and you're looking to learn some of the basics killing stuff that isn't cheap fw ****, then send me a mail. |
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
243
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 17:45:53 -
[208] - Quote
NPC corp is better than a solo corp.
So basically you get no wars and lots of goof balls to chat with for the low low rate of 11%.
I don't have an aversion to player corps, I am just picky.
I can't be a **** with my alt cause some idiot decided to name all his characters the same.  |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
679
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 18:16:13 -
[209] - Quote
How one dimensional of you. If you think more deeply you'll discover that there are many more reason people have characters in NPC corps... that is unless you are just being deliberately dishonest about it. The chief reason people "quit" eve in an NPC corp is that they have many more than one account. economics, seasonal tasks like education, moving to an NPC corp in preparation to unsubscribe..and more come into play. But the primary reason people stay in an NPC corp is not wardec denial; it's the availability of the large ad free chat community.
-á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
|
WhyYouHeffToBeMad IsOnlyGame
6694
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 19:33:48 -
[210] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:I don't think you understand Eve at all sorry.
Give that man an upvote.
Everything's a game if you make it one - Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
|
|
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 20:27:47 -
[211] - Quote
Rather than worry about NPC corps maybe CCP should just get rid of wardecs.
You want PvP? You go to null, low sec, or worm hole space or you gank in high sec. None of this ridiculous wardec nonsense. |
Syrilian
Ascending Angels
49
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 20:50:46 -
[212] - Quote
Givi Oskold wrote:Well, how about a different perspective on getting rid of NPC corporations. As a new player, it's almost impossible to get into a corporation since we don't show up with 20 mil skill points so we can't fit fleet doctrines or hold our own even in small groups in low sec or null.
Since the bulk of EVE characters seems to be alts for other players (such is the rumor anyway), the lack of trust is also an obstacle since the first thing every one assumes is "spy". That tends to be a problem too.
That's all based on the idea that you can even find a corp to contact since the corp finder is at best weak and what little else there is comes down to random luck if you can actually find somebody interested in taking you on. Good luck with that, because you will definitely need a lot of luck to do it.
If you get into a corp that NOT just the equivalent of a player run NPC corp, all you end up doing is skill training and waiting until a groups will take you on.
As it is, the new player experience is rough but finding a decent corp that offers the chance to actually do something at low skill points is a freakin' nightmare.
Thus, new players tend to sit in NPC corps and train skills while trying to kill the boredom by running slightly less boring missions or scanning for scraps that nobody else will even bother with. Or mining. Mining, because that's a huge draw in the gaming community. :p
I should clarify that I'm not against mining or industry in any way. However, it should be part of the game, not the only thing left that you might be able to do while trying to do something else. However, if you love mining then I tip my hat to you for providing a vital service to the community. o7
NPC corps offer the only other possible social experience in EVE. If you get rid of it, the new player experience consists of getting a ship and being ignored until you have no "game" time left. CCP might just as well delete the trial and subscribe features to the game at that point.
So, like it or not, you NEED those NPC corps just to provide a place for those who aren't anywhere else. It isn't like EVE players greet new players with open arms. Not even close.
I joined a corp about a week after signing up, and the only reason it took me that long is because I waited a week to join a corp. Once I started looking it took me like maybe 2 hours? I had less than 1m SP.
|
Valkin Mordirc
768
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 20:54:23 -
[213] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Rather than worry about NPC corps maybe CCP should just get rid of wardecs.
You want PvP? You go to null, low sec, or worm hole space or you gank in high sec. None of this ridiculous wardec nonsense.
Join a proper High-sec corp and you don't have to worry about Wardecs.
Merc are not there to hurt you, we're here to protect you at a modest fee.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Faylee Freir
Defining Harassment
Slaver's Union
63
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 22:26:47 -
[214] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Rather than worry about NPC corps maybe CCP should just get rid of wardecs.
You want PvP? You go to null, low sec, or worm hole space or you gank in high sec. None of this ridiculous wardec nonsense.
That won't solve anything. It doesn't matter what CCP does... Until eve is a themepark lets-be-friends-forever MMO, people like you will always cry for nerfs. There is nothing wrong with wardecs. It adds an element to the game that many people enjoy. The unique thing about eve is that there is content an mechanics that serve as conflict drivers. Most people think of conflict drivers as captureable fw space and null sov, but the most interesting conflict drivers are the ones that fall in metagaming and emergent gameplay,
The fact that a small mining corp can war dec or hire mercs to chase off the huge corp that's hogging all the ice and roids is incredible. I'm going to try and say this nicely because I want toget my point across without getting moderated: Hisec is not your personal playground where you can make friends and isk without any risk or the fear of consequence. Hisec is home to thieves, con-artists, gankers, extortionists, and mercenaries just as it is to "your kind". If you want fun without risk of consequence, then please leave and find another game. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
138
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 22:34:13 -
[215] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Rather than worry about NPC corps maybe CCP should just get rid of wardecs.
You want PvP? You go to null, low sec, or worm hole space or you gank in high sec. None of this ridiculous wardec nonsense. That won't solve anything. It doesn't matter what CCP does... Until eve is a themepark lets-be-friends-forever MMO, people like you will always cry for nerfs. There is nothing wrong with wardecs. It adds an element to the game that many people enjoy. The unique thing about eve is that there is content an mechanics that serve as conflict drivers. Most people think of conflict drivers as captureable fw space and null sov, but the most interesting conflict drivers are the ones that fall in metagaming and emergent gameplay, The fact that a small mining corp can war dec or hire mercs to chase off the huge corp that's hogging all the ice and roids is incredible. I'm going to try and say this nicely because I want toget my point across without getting moderated: Hisec is not your personal playground where you can make friends and isk without any risk or the fear of consequence. Hisec is home to thieves, con-artists, gankers, extortionists, and mercenaries just as it is to "your kind". If you want fun without risk of consequence, then please leave and find another game.
I call bull on your use of the word many.
And its funny that you use the word risk when you are hiding in hi-sec trying to pvp a pve player. |
Brylan Grey
Scope Works
Overload Everything
72
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 22:38:22 -
[216] - Quote
Avoid wars.
Hundreds of people to chat with.
Pride uncertain lore aspects.
Not ready to join a corp.
There are many reasons. Took me forever to join a corp.
Really, in high sec, corps seem practically useless beyond tax savings. If the constant flood of war decs by drooling maniacs around trade hubs is worth the extra 10% you lost in taxes, then a corp is worth it.
Otherwise, if you staying in high sec, I seriously see no reason at all to join a corp, especially if you already engage in activities that are not taxed anyway. |
Faylee Freir
Defining Harassment
Slaver's Union
63
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 22:57:30 -
[217] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Rather than worry about NPC corps maybe CCP should just get rid of wardecs.
You want PvP? You go to null, low sec, or worm hole space or you gank in high sec. None of this ridiculous wardec nonsense. That won't solve anything. It doesn't matter what CCP does... Until eve is a themepark lets-be-friends-forever MMO, people like you will always cry for nerfs. There is nothing wrong with wardecs. It adds an element to the game that many people enjoy. The unique thing about eve is that there is content an mechanics that serve as conflict drivers. Most people think of conflict drivers as captureable fw space and null sov, but the most interesting conflict drivers are the ones that fall in metagaming and emergent gameplay, The fact that a small mining corp can war dec or hire mercs to chase off the huge corp that's hogging all the ice and roids is incredible. I'm going to try and say this nicely because I want toget my point across without getting moderated: Hisec is not your personal playground where you can make friends and isk without any risk or the fear of consequence. Hisec is home to thieves, con-artists, gankers, extortionists, and mercenaries just as it is to "your kind". If you want fun without risk of consequence, then please leave and find another game. I call bull on your use of the word many. And its funny that you use the word risk when you are hiding in hi-sec trying to pvp a pve player.
I'm interested in knowing which word you would use to describe the amount. I used the word many because of you look in the crime and punishment sub-forum you will find MANY people that call themselves mercenaries. There are also MANY people that like what mercenaries do.
I can only speak for myself, so I will... I don't hide in hisec. I choose to be in hisec because that's where the fattened cattle can be found. Players much like yourself that live in some delusional state that there ought to be risk-free pve in hisec.. So you run missions in your faction or officer fit battleship. Sure, I guess I could romp around a mostly empty nullsec or get blobbed by gangs in lowsec, but I choose to live in a place where my existence can provide meaning. I create content and use the conflict of others as part of that content. I prey on the weak and sometimes the loot fairy blesses my endeavors. I don't play without my own risk either... I **** off a bunch of people. I'm still learning and am not as skilled as most others like me... Someone that doesn't like me could wardec me themselves or hire mercs. thebdifference between me being in hisec and you being in hisec is that I'm not weak. Sure I may be learning and have a bad killboard, and get stomped every once in a while, but I'm not weak like you.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6648
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Posted - 2015.03.13 23:07:31 -
[218] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:I can only speak for myself, so I will... I don't hide in hisec. I choose to be in hisec because that's where the fattened cattle can be found. Players much like yourself that live in some delusional state that there ought to be risk-free pve in hisec.. So you run missions in your faction or officer fit battleship. Sure, I guess I could romp around a mostly empty nullsec or get blobbed by gangs in lowsec, but I choose to live in a place where my existence can provide meaning. I create content and use the conflict of others as part of that content. I prey on the weak and sometimes the loot fairy blesses my endeavors. I don't play without my own risk either... I **** off a bunch of people. I'm still learning and am not as skilled as most others like me... Someone that doesn't like me could wardec me themselves or hire mercs. thebdifference between me being in hisec and you being in hisec is that I'm not weak. Sure I may be learning and have a bad killboard, and get stomped every once in a while, but I'm not weak like you.
Hmm, you may be learning however, it seems you may have overlooked something... specifically:
Faylee Freir wrote:Someone that doesn't like me could wardec me
Is there a reason you're allowing this? Just from this thread you would have learned how to deal with this issue.
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Faylee Freir
Defining Harassment
Slaver's Union
63
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Posted - 2015.03.13 23:24:41 -
[219] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:I can only speak for myself, so I will... I don't hide in hisec. I choose to be in hisec because that's where the fattened cattle can be found. Players much like yourself that live in some delusional state that there ought to be risk-free pve in hisec.. So you run missions in your faction or officer fit battleship. Sure, I guess I could romp around a mostly empty nullsec or get blobbed by gangs in lowsec, but I choose to live in a place where my existence can provide meaning. I create content and use the conflict of others as part of that content. I prey on the weak and sometimes the loot fairy blesses my endeavors. I don't play without my own risk either... I **** off a bunch of people. I'm still learning and am not as skilled as most others like me... Someone that doesn't like me could wardec me themselves or hire mercs. thebdifference between me being in hisec and you being in hisec is that I'm not weak. Sure I may be learning and have a bad killboard, and get stomped every once in a while, but I'm not weak like you.
Hmm, you may be learning however, it seems you may have overlooked something... specifically: Faylee Freir wrote:Someone that doesn't like me could wardec me Is there a reason you're allowing this? Just from this thread you would have learned how to deal with this issue.
Me getting wardec'd is not an issue, only added risk. It's not an issue because I'm not weak like you. Being dec'd by a larger and better entity just means that I may need to remove my faction web and point... Or that I need to make sure I pay proper attention to my scout... Or that my watch list is updated... You know, thigsh at you can do to minimize risk too. I choose to do something about it where "people like you" will hide in a station, stay logged off, then cry for nerfs saying there's nothing you can do about it. All it would literally take for most of the small corps that wardec is a few logi and some ewar. That or pay mercs to do it. If you aren't willing to do something about the conflict you're in, then at the very least don't cry about it. Instead just play a different game.
Eve is conflict an player interaction. You have no right trying to neuter what makes eve special. This isn't just about wardecs though... Let's be honest, many of "you people" woul like to see conflict and emergent gameplay nerfed into the ground where you are effectively playing sim city even without environmental effects like flooding, fire, earthquakes, and alien abductions (because those things are just too much for a simple-minded peasant to deal with). |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
134
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 00:47:45 -
[220] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:Me getting wardec'd is not an issue, only added risk. It's not an issue because I'm not weak like you. Being dec'd by a larger and better entity just means that I may need to remove my faction web and point... Or that I need to make sure I pay proper attention to my scout... Or that my watch list is updated... You know, thigsh at you can do to minimize risk too. I choose to do something about it where "people like you" will hide in a station, stay logged off, then cry for nerfs saying there's nothing you can do about it. All it would literally take for most of the small corps that wardec is a few logi and some ewar. That or pay mercs to do it. If you aren't willing to do something about the conflict you're in, then at the very least don't cry about it. Instead just play a different game.
Eve is conflict an player interaction. You have no right trying to neuter what makes eve special. This isn't just about wardecs though... Let's be honest, many of "you people" woul like to see conflict and emergent gameplay nerfed into the ground where you are effectively playing sim city even without environmental effects like flooding, fire, earthquakes, and alien abductions (because those things are just too much for a simple-minded peasant to deal with).
Ok, I've been listening to this nonsense silently long enough.
1) Your way of playing sandbox allows you to be relatively fine with a wardec threat, this doesn't make it stronger, this makes it actually paler, and it has absolutely nothing to do with being weak or strong. However, a lot of playstyles, especially those not concerning the ultimate boredom of ship to ship pew, are completely devastated by a wardec, or, considering that a war dec thrown against carefully selected target which has no ability to fight back, we should call it what it is - a grief dec.
2) "A few logi and some ewar" would do absolutely nothing at best (the enemy sees those with neutral scout and decides to hit something else, and let you sit there in those logi ewar ships boring yourself to death), and will be losses at worst (enemy sees those, and stomps it laughing at how great of an idea getting easy kills from grief decs is). Bottom line is: fight or no fight, the defender loses everything.
3) Mercs are currently 120% useless for anything but scaring the risk averse grief deccers. They can't sit at your assets 23/7, they can't force the grief deccer to fight, what can they do? Nothing. As in n-o-t-h-i-n-g. Which is most likely what they are going to do once you pay them.
4) The mercs have prohibitively high cost. Remaking corp costs pretty much, not playing for a week costs pretty much, paying mercs costs even more - and see 3) again if you think it's worth it.
5) Conflict - good. Grief dec - bad. Grief dec carries zero risk for the attacker, and even if defender mans up, pays mercs, joins the 5000-man alliance, and/or does a barrel roll - the amount of damage he can inflict to the attacker is ZERO, because the risk-averse grief deccer won't undock. I'm both hands for meaningful conflict, where both attacker and defender have options. Right now attacker has every option he wants, and defender has a choice of dropping corp or not undocking for a week, because all other options are ******** (see 2, 3, 4).
Your self-entitlement to be better than average indy player by having a different playstyle (and admittedly failing at it) is only beaten by your argumentation in silliness.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12131
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Posted - 2015.03.14 01:22:44 -
[221] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec.
EVE is a PvP game.
PvP is, by definition, not griefing.
The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Madd Adda
37
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Posted - 2015.03.14 03:24:06 -
[222] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec. EVE is a PvP game.PvP is, by definition, not griefing. The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out.
no, EVE a sandbox that ALLOWS pvp. big difference.
Carebear extraordinaire
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6649
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Posted - 2015.03.14 03:43:45 -
[223] - Quote
It can be modified to a sandbox that disallows various types of "pvp"
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
134
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Posted - 2015.03.14 03:46:27 -
[224] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec. EVE is a PvP game. PvP is, by definition, not griefing. The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out.
I thought I will not respond to the usual trolling of the person who finally got his butt kicked hard out of ROC and instantly falling to the rock bottom of eve associating with the most risk-averse alliance of people who pretend they do what they do not just because it's been made the most dumbed down thing of all eve, but here we go.
First stupid and relentlessly repeated mistake is calling eve a pvp game. Eve is a SANDBOX game (ed: lmao, 2 people have corrected you on that while I were writing this post) housing many forms of interaction, including fun ones like industry and boring ones like combat. Actually, this already invalidates the rest of your post for obvious reasons.
The definition of griefing is deliberate harassment of other players. There are many forms of griefing available in eve, the only difference between them is that some are tolerated to a certain extent, some are tolerated completely, and some are not tolerated at all. You can argue your pants off if grief dec is tolerated griefing or not, it does not change the plain fact that it is griefing. Remember that your post is already invalidated because you didn't even knew what eve is, before ignoring that part and picking on this one.
The rest of my post is just already established truths you could never refute, because it is impossible.
I can dare you to try again any day, you always entertain me with your ignorance, enough to not be able to resist daring you, here we go:
1) What can merks do in the current grief dec situation? Aside from making you nervous that you might be camped in, even though you think it's completely ok when you camp someone else in.
2) What can defender do to avoid major losses? Having to buy pvp ships that either go unused or go boom are major losses (and the latter is even less losses because at least they get insurance back, while the former leaves them with a bunch of useless rigged insured ships which are too hard to sell). Not undocking for a week is major losses. Dropping corp is losing time required to wrap up assets, lose all rented offices, and remove all POSes - major losses.
3) What is the risk of the attacker?
I know the answers, you know them too, because they are in the previous posts, but I know you have hilarious wrong ones, so let's hear them.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:05:40 -
[225] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:The definition of griefing is deliberate harassment of other players.
I think decs with the intent of causing others grief is childish, moronic and generally done in a cowardly way. BUT you make a statement like it is a universal truth. CCP has a player harassment policy and use of a war-dec mechanics is not considered harassment by CCP so your universal definition fails. It is your definition and maybe the definition of other victims, but not THE definition.
While I don't care for griefing-decs and if there was a viable solution that would not diminish the game I would support it, but generically asking for HS war-decs to be nerfed is not a viable solution. I wish nerf fans would at least describe specifically what they want to see changed that would decrease grief-decs while keeping HS decs viable and additive to the game.
I don't think war-decs are a substantial reason why new players don't join PCs. The players that leave PCs and return to NPCs may count that reason significantly among their reasons, but players avoiding war-decs is usually done after being exposed to one and that activity not being what they want to do. I think there are many other reasons that new players don't end up joining PCs. Large among them it takes a lot of work to find corps because most recruiting is done out of game and recruiters frequently focus their pitches on experienced players.
I think the players need to do more to make joining PCs enticing to new players and to find out what is enticing to them is done in game while they are still in the NPC corp not in the recruiting forum where most of them will never go. I don't think many recruiters outside the large player mentoring corps even know what would be enticing to the new player to join.
I don't see this as a game mechanic that needs to be changed by CCP, I think any perceived lack of new players not joining PCs falls on the the experienced player base. IMO the experienced player base is not as welcoming as it used to be. Experienced players practically begrudge new players in their universe.
As an example gankers used to engage their targets afterward and explain what made them a target and what made them easy. Now they just post the kill mail and move on. I haven't been ganked in HS in a very long time because of that type of game play instruction from experienced players in the past.
i know many carebears ***** and moan about CODE and James 315 - but when I read their bios and links, I know what they are doing, why they think it is worth doing and i can adapt to their presence with very little effect on any portion of my game play that I want to avoid them. I wouldn't find enjoyment doing what they do and I would help rookies adapt to their presence.
But i would not support anything that would make tearfuls able to do what they really want to do when they complain about "griefers", fly non-tanked mining/mission maxed ships with NO risk. There should be no place in EVE where those ship fittings are kept perfectly safe from the environment. Hell even HS belt rats are way too weak in my opinion. I should not be able to take a venture to a .5 system and tank the rats long enough for two T1 drones with little skills to eliminate three of them and just keep mining like nothing is happening. Which I have been able to do right out of career missions and a week of SP with no main support for money, ships, skills, etc. (after all i have to keep that character clean for full api PC background checks.) |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23903
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:08:33 -
[226] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:The definition of griefing is deliberate harassment of other players. There are many forms of griefing available in eve, the only difference between them is that some are tolerated to a certain extent, some are tolerated completely, and some are not tolerated at all. You can argue your pants off if grief dec is tolerated griefing or not, it does not change the plain fact that it is griefing.
*cough*
CCP Rise wrote:
We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.
Sleep all day. Party all night. Never grow old. Never die. -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
138
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:08:42 -
[227] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec. EVE is a PvP game. PvP is, by definition, not griefing. The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out.
Eve is a sandbox. Where all play styles are allowed.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23903
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:14:36 -
[228] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
EVE is a PvP game.
Eve is a sandbox. Where all play styles are allowed.
Actually he's right. EVE is player vs. player. Everything you do in the game is player vs. player. The play style where player vs. player is unwanted or undesired is not something that the game design encourages. There is no activity in the game where PVP is disallowed.
Edit: fixed quote tags
Sleep all day. Party all night. Never grow old. Never die. -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:20:44 -
[229] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Actually he's right. EVE is player vs. player. Everything you do in the game is player vs. player. The play style where player vs. player is unwanted or undesired is not something that the game design encourages. There is no activity in the game where PVP is disallowed.
Indeed, even players who claim they don't want PVP are competing against other players in HS for resources for the price of their mission loot and on and on. When that mission runner who claims they don't want to PVP undercuts someone .01 isk in the market they are engaging in PVP. That is a mechanic I would rather see changed than HS war-decs, there should be a mechanic that requires your desired price to buy or sell be at least some percentage different of the current best price by an average market price or the same price. .01 isk price competition is BS. I avoid giving .01 iskers my business. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
138
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:23:38 -
[230] - Quote
Uh-oh...Alice in Wonderland logic spotted. |
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soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:29:56 -
[231] - Quote
tru nuff but my point is really that there are more annoying things in the game mechanics than the constant tears over HS war-decs. I hear more complaints in rookie help from rookies about their items not ever selling when they put in a better price to sell than about war-decs. In fact, I never hear a rookie in rookie help complaining about war-decs. The only time it is brought up is by vets. |
Jvpiter
Jovelike
3457
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:44:32 -
[232] - Quote
soicanforumpostsafely wrote:
.01 isk price competition is BS.
I, too, decry every competitive tactic I have no remedy for.
To gehenna to all those who play the game too well. Cast them out to exile!
Call me Joe.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12132
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:52:55 -
[233] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec. EVE is a PvP game.PvP is, by definition, not griefing. The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out. no, EVE a sandbox that ALLOWS pvp. big difference.
No, EVE is a PvP game.
The freaking FAQ says as much. There is no argument about this, no debate. EVE is a PvP game first, last, and always.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1367
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:57:47 -
[234] - Quote
But if we don't fight for it, how are we to be assured of having enough sand to make our sand castles? I mean other people are using up bunches of sand and sometimes it gets hard to come by. Should sand hoarders be compelled to redistribute their sand so everyone has an equal amount? That doesn't seem really fair to me, as they got their sand by being crafty and knowing how the sand box operates.... but still, I mean there's only so much sand in the box, right?
I'm sure I had a point at some point, but I just cannot for the life of me remember it.
Something something PVP maybe.
It is dark here. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
138
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Posted - 2015.03.14 05:58:40 -
[235] - Quote
Should make the cost of a wardec inversely proportional to the member count and total SP of a corp.
Deccing large, high SP corps becomes cheaper while deccing small or low SP corps becomes less profitable. I think one of the CSM candidates associated with the merc community actually suggested something similar.
Would require some interesting maths to fine tune. Maybe factor in assets aswell? |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
138
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Posted - 2015.03.14 06:04:58 -
[236] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:But if we don't fight for it, how are we to be assured of having enough sand to make our sand castles? I mean other people are using up bunches of sand and sometimes it gets hard to come by. Should sand hoarders be compelled to redistribute their sand so everyone has an equal amount? That doesn't seem really fair to me, as they got their sand by being crafty and knowing how the sand box operates.... but still, I mean there's only so much sand in the box, right?
I'm sure I had a point at some point, but I just cannot for the life of me remember it.
Something something PVP maybe.
Well, you could argue that some people get their sand by playing for a really long time and investing the effort and real world money to have a vast collection of alts distributed across multiple accounts running on 3-4 monitors in order to minimize the risk to their sand castle and give them a greater ability to break other peoples' without having to actually rely on other human beings.
You could then have a discussion about exactly how much investment in alts and excessive gaming hardware should be required to be competitive, with some unfavorable comparisons to EA thrown in.
But EVE is the fantasy refuge of manchildren who want to roleplay Ayn Rand characters, so I don't foresee that discussion being overly productive.
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Valkin Mordirc
771
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Posted - 2015.03.14 06:09:27 -
[237] - Quote
Oh another on of these. Alrighty *cracks knuckles*
Quote:I thought I will not respond to the usual trolling of the person who finally got his butt kicked hard out of ROC and instantly falling to the rock bottom of eve associating with the most risk-averse alliance of people who pretend they do what they do not just because it's been made the most dumbed down thing of all eve, but here we go.
Mindlessly attacking another poster, makes you no better then him. Even if you disagree with him. Ya nitwit.
Quote:First stupid and relentlessly repeated mistake is calling eve a pvp game. Eve is a SANDBOX game (ed: lmao, 2 people have corrected you on that while I were writing this post) housing many forms of interaction, including fun ones like industry and boring ones like combat. Actually, this already invalidates the rest of your post for obvious reasons.
EVE can be best described as 'PvP Sandbox' there are very very few things you do that is not Pure PVE, Missions and Ship Spinning being probably the one two pure PVE areas in the game. Industry is not a PVE game. You are competing with other players. Getting Ore. Selling Products. It is, at the heart of it, PVP. Not Combat based PVP. But PVP none the less.
Quote:The definition of griefing is deliberate harassment of other players. There are many forms of griefing available in eve, the only difference between them is that some are tolerated to a certain extent, some are tolerated completely, and some are not tolerated at all. You can argue your pants off if grief dec is tolerated griefing or not, it does not change the plain fact that it is griefing. Remember that your post is already invalidated because you didn't even knew what eve is, before ignoring that part and picking on this one.
You can a Wardec whatever you want. It's still an accepted part of the game, and changing the name doesn't change that it is allowed and I can do with it as I please. Sorry that you think that little carebears quit because of it. Fun fact. The Carebears quit not because they can't find a "safe" place to be as they "level up" It's because they can not find a group to play with.
The fact that wardeccers are blamed for people quiting is only because the half assed "corps" That pop-up. The "We do everything" corp. If you are a part of one of those. Your in for a bad time. NPC corps are also a problem as, asides from groups like Scope Works. And Newbie isn't going to know where to go when he first starts.
Quote:The rest of my post is just already established truths you could never refute, because it is impossible.
I can dare you to try again any day, you always entertain me with your ignorance, enough to not be able to resist daring you, here we go:
Again mindless post dribbling insults, makes no better.
Quote: 1) What can merks do in the current grief dec situation? Aside from making you nervous that you might be camped in, even though you think it's completely ok when you camp someone else in.
What do you mean Grief dec? Do you mean a standard Non contracted Wardec? Or a Contracted Wardec? If you mean Random Dec. Nothing?
If you mean a contracted dec, then We've done our job by forcing the Defender into an area where he can not interact with the outside. Resource Denial. Harassing other players keeps them from doing what they want to do. Mining Missioning, or whatever. That's a good thing to do when your contracted by a client for the most part.
2) What can defender do to avoid major losses? Having to buy pvp ships that either go unused or go boom are major losses (and the latter is even less losses because at least they get insurance back, while the former leaves them with a bunch of useless rigged insured ships which are too hard to sell). Not undocking for a week is major losses. Dropping corp is losing time required to wrap up assets, lose all rented offices, and remove all POSes - major losses.
1, Allies, Bring in another merc corp to handle the aggression corp. IE, Marmite decs BLah Corp 1, POH allies in for 1bil.
2. Move to Highsec Islands,
3. Use Scouts to watch trade pipes that Mercs will use to get to them quickly.
4. Have a W-space system that you have blue in.
5. Blobbing. I've seen Ravens undock from the Amarr hub like they were made of Water. If your corp has numbers. You have a very real advantage.
6. Blue Balling, What the agressive corps Time zones. TRying to inactive during those times, do your business when they are at a low members.
7. OOC Alts,
8 POS underattack? Dickstars
Need I keep going?
3) What is the risk of the attacker?
https://zkillboard.com/war/410551/
\
#DeleteTheWeak
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
134
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Posted - 2015.03.14 06:47:12 -
[238] - Quote
soicanforumpostsafely wrote:snip
Like I were saying, the fact it's a tolerated griefing does not means it's not griefing. It is. It's just tolerated to a certain level.
They can leave wardecs be. I don't mind them. It's grief decs I'm against, and I generally have the same reason as you do - because it's dickery.
The grief decs is a very major reason why people don't join corps. I recruited a few peeps for my corp after ff changes went live, some of them were like 4 months old, and the first question was "what if some griefer shoots me?". They do realize eve combat pvp is not accessible for a character below at least 50-70 million SP, and they know the lack of SP would not allow them to fight back, so the fear of being griefed is an extremely major deterrent for new players. Some of them even believe eve has no safety at all, they imagine their favorite mmo, whatever it is, without safe zones, and it's certainly not the game they want! Then they go and ask more experienced eve players about unsafety in eve, and get an answer "yes, war dec, cheap as dirt, makes you free target". At this point, the opinion of eve with a self-portait as a main dish on a dining table is complete.
Hisec carries incredible risk even without grief decs. In low/null you can at least shoot anyone on sight and keep your distance, hisec doesn't allow that. Any pea-brain can approach as close as you want, and the only thing you can do about it is move elsewhere. The only thing keeping the gank away is gankers being lazy - but make no mistake, ganking has been made so stupidly easy that people who failed at everything else in eve can still kill a freighter, and they will target even empty freighter just for internet points. Because they can. Most of the time it's the only thing in eve they can fail only half the time at, not every time. Right now, suicide wanking is #1 activity in hisec, and while I'm not exactly for extra safety, I say it needs a skillcap increase, rather than just "get shitload of free ships and press F1". My proposition was to decrease concord response delay based on number of the attackers, so they have to balance the amount of ships they bring against lower efficiency of every extra ship due to earlier concordokken, and can't bring free ships anymore if they want to attack a costly target. This way it doesn't affect "max yield" targets (there is no other way to fit a barge though, but it's a barge balancing problem) because they die to 1-2 free ships anyway, but will immensely help balance freighter tanking, because right now it is a mess due to N+1 on free ships used to gank them. And by the way, rats aren't as weak as you think. They can sufficiently weaken a barge so it can be brought down by 1 gankalyst, just gotta wait for it.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Madd Adda
38
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 06:52:20 -
[239] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Madd Adda wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec. EVE is a PvP game.PvP is, by definition, not griefing. The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out. no, EVE a sandbox that ALLOWS pvp. big difference. No, EVE is a PvP game. The freaking FAQ says as much. There is no argument about this, no debate. EVE is a PvP game first, last, and always.
that a load of bologna. mining has no pvp in of itself, production in a station has no pvp, playing the market within a station has no pvp. There's more but you get the point. EVE isn't a PVP game, it's a sandbox with a big pvp aspect.
i wonder what FAQ you got that from though, because the FAQs read from CCP, eveolopedia and eve online doesn't indicate it as a pvp game. It regards it as an open ended MMO space sim.
Carebear extraordinaire
|
Valkin Mordirc
771
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 06:54:34 -
[240] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Should make the cost of a wardec inversely proportional to the member count and total SP of a corp.
Deccing large, high SP corps becomes cheaper while deccing small or low SP corps becomes less profitable. I think one of the CSM candidates associated with the merc community actually suggested something similar.
Would require some interesting maths to fine tune. Maybe factor in assets aswell?
I hate this type of logic.
Skillpoints. DO NOT matter.
Skillpoints only open more options for you to use. But 150mil SP vet can still die to a 15mil SP newbrah.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
|
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Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
33659
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 06:59:59 -
[241] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Should make the cost of a wardec inversely proportional to the member count and total SP of a corp.
Deccing large, high SP corps becomes cheaper while deccing small or low SP corps becomes less profitable. I think one of the CSM candidates associated with the merc community actually suggested something similar.
Would require some interesting maths to fine tune. Maybe factor in assets aswell? I hate this type of logic. Skillpoints. DO NOT matter. Skillpoints only open more options for you to use. But 150mil SP vet can still die to a 15mil SP newbrah.
Skill points don't matter only after a point. Unless you're partaking in fleet activities, in which case you could be flying a laser Megathron and still be a contributing member, for example.
As for the topic, people stay in NPC corps, because other corps are unwelcoming towards them.
Why do bad threads happen to good people?
|
Valkin Mordirc
771
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 07:04:50 -
[242] - Quote
Madd Adda wrote:[quote=Kaarous Aldurald]
that a load of bologna. mining has no pvp in of itself, production in a station has no pvp, playing the market within a station has no pvp. There's more but you get the point. EVE isn't a PVP game, it's a sandbox with a big pvp aspect.
i wonder what FAQ you got that from though, because the FAQs read from CCP, eveolopedia and eve online doesn't indicate it as a pvp game. It regards it as an open ended MMO space sim.
When you produce an item you need Ore, Which if you mine ore you take away from another player who could have mined himself.
When you put something on the market. You undercut other players own sell orders.
That is PvP. Not combat based PvP but PvP
#DeleteTheWeak
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1367
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 07:06:45 -
[243] - Quote
On the other hand, by staying in NPC corps many players also rob themselves of the opportunity to have other like minded folks help them understand some of the various ways to put the SP they do have to their greatest use.
It's a great deal easier to establish a rapport with possible mentors in a closely knit social environment than to try to do so by shouting into the seething mob.
It is dark here. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
134
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 07:10:37 -
[244] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Oh another on of these. Alrighty *cracks knuckles* Mindlessly attacking another poster, makes you no better then him. Even if you disagree with him. Ya nitwit. EVE can be best described as 'PvP Sandbox' there are very very few things you do that is not Pure PVE, Missions and Ship Spinning being probably the one two pure PVE areas in the game. Industry is not a PVE game. You are competing with other players. Getting Ore. Selling Products. It is, at the heart of it, PVP. Not Combat based PVP. But PVP none the less. You can a Wardec whatever you want. It's still an accepted part of the game, and changing the name doesn't change that it is allowed and I can do with it as I please. Sorry that you think that little carebears quit because of it. Fun fact. The Carebears quit not because they can't find a "safe" place to be as they "level up" It's because they can not find a group to play with. The fact that wardeccers are blamed for people quiting is only because the half assed "corps" That pop-up. The "We do everything" corp. If you are a part of one of those. Your in for a bad time. NPC corps are also a problem as, asides from groups like Scope Works. And Newbie isn't going to know where to go when he first starts. Quote: 1) What can merks do in the current grief dec situation? Aside from making you nervous that you might be camped in, even though you think it's completely ok when you camp someone else in. If you mean a contracted dec, then We've done our job by forcing the Defender into an area where he can not interact with the outside. Resource Denial. Harassing other players keeps them from doing what they want to do. Mining Missioning, or whatever. That's a good thing to do when your contracted by a client for the most part. 2) What can defender do to avoid major losses? Having to buy pvp ships that either go unused or go boom are major losses (and the latter is even less losses because at least they get insurance back, while the former leaves them with a bunch of useless rigged insured ships which are too hard to sell). Not undocking for a week is major losses. Dropping corp is losing time required to wrap up assets, lose all rented offices, and remove all POSes - major losses. 1, Allies, Bring in another merc corp to handle the aggression corp. IE, Marmite decs BLah Corp 1, POH allies in for 1bil. 2. Move to Highsec Islands, 3. Use Scouts to watch trade pipes that Mercs will use to get to them quickly. 4. Have a W-space system that you have blue in. 5. Blobbing. I've seen Ravens undock from the Amarr hub like they were made of Water. If your corp has numbers. You have a very real advantage. 6. Blue Balling, What the agressive corps Time zones. TRying to inactive during those times, do your business when they are at a low members. 7. OOC Alts, 8 POS underattack? Dickstars Need I keep going? 3) What is the risk of the attacker?https://zkillboard.com/war/410551/
\
This poster has been asking for an attack for a year now, it's not mindlessly, he deserved every word of it.
EVE is a sandbox game, you are only competing if you want to. You can do whatever you want, you only compete if you try to get profits, but here is the key point - nobody is making you make profits. If you don't make getting more than next guy your goal, you are NOT competing. Therefore, it's a pure sandbox, and it does NOT become "pvp sandbox" just because some overly competitive baboons have made it their goal to pretend to compete with someone who doesn't realize they are being competed against.
I find this "accepted part of the game" in need of changes, because it is pure griefing and zero content, and should go, like other zero-content things like dumbmode awoxing. Like I were saying, we can keep war decs, just make the grief decs history.
So you say "they were a bad corp anyway" as an excuse for griefing. I wonder how many good corps has been griefed out of the game by chain grief decs, then called "bad" by the griefers. A lot more than genuine bad ones, I bet.
Now, the rest of you post was kinda clueless. I did not ask what mercs can do being on the griefing side, that is obvious, even my dog can grief people and deny them a freedom of movement by chasing them into some cover. The question OBVIOUSLY was about what mercs on the DEFENDING side can do.
And there you just go with more blunders on the border of stupidity.
1. Allies - they do nothing. Like I said, they cannot force a fight, they cannot guard you 23/7, they are useless and only scare risk-avers grief deccers.
2. It takes one red to disrupt a whole indy corp, and I'm pretty sure, that if you (at the price of great financial investment) can do it, they can also come and grief you there. Unless grief deccers are as risk-averse as I think and stop at one lowsec system.
3. Using scouts is pointless. If they are in local you dock up. There is no reason to dock up earlier. If they come you are camped and disrupted anyway. Mercs can't babysit you 23/7 but enemies can camp you 23/7 with neutral alts, so scouts are really pointless.
4. w-space industry has been destroyed in Odyssey. Might as well go play another game.
5. Nobody grief decs a blobber, and numbers never work as advantage for indy corps. Cost of buying all those ravens is astronomic, and they are going to be useless in the future - it's a defeat if you had to buy them.
6. Grief deccers do the same, and you have to play in uncomfortable time to be camped anyway.
7. Same as dropping corp and getting OOC mains. The only reasonable thing to do in a grief dec at the moment.
8. Entertainment for the grief deccer. Massive cost to fit and run, so having them is already a defeat, because they are useless outside of grief dec.
> https://zkillboard.com/war/410551/
A war target came in on a neut activating kill rights. That's no risk, neut would've done it anyway.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Valkin Mordirc
771
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 07:27:04 -
[245] - Quote
Quote:EVE is a sandbox game, you are only competing if you want to. You can do whatever you want, you only compete if you try to get profits, but here is the key point - nobody is making you make profits. If you don't make getting more than next guy your goal, you are NOT competing. Therefore, it's a pure sandbox, and it does NOT become "pvp sandbox" just because some overly competitive baboons have made it their goal to pretend to compete with someone who doesn't realize they are being competed against.
Yes EVE is a sandbox. We covered this. But it's a competitive Player Verse Player Sandbox. Yes, You can play "Non Competitively" However But the game is NOT intended to be played this way. Why can't you understand this? Also. Don't call people you don't know Baboons. It makes you seem Arrogant and self-righteous It's a game. Not a moral Crusade.
Quote:I find this "accepted part of the game" in need of changes, because it is pure griefing and zero content, and should go, like other zero-content things like dumbmode awoxing. Like I were saying, we can keep war decs, just make the grief decs history
Wardec need a change yes. But harassment of other corps in HS should be allowed always. Otherwise the majority of Merc Contracts dry up and it stagnates are core group of the game. Also these 'grief' decs. Make me a profit. People pay me isk to stop shooting at them. If you don't like that. Thats your problem because CCP doesn't seem to think it is.
Also Awoxing, is something I believe should have been kept but we can leave this out of here. *shrugs*
Quote:
Now, the rest of you post was kinda clueless. I did not ask what mercs can do being on the griefing side, that is obvious, even my dog can grief people and deny them a freedom of movement by chasing them into some cover. The question OBVIOUSLY was about what mercs on the DEFENDING side can do.
And there you just go with more blunders on the border of stupidity
Heh. You call people griefers yet you yourself lash out like a rage infested troll.
I can see already my time is wasted. Your no better then Veers, just a hot bag blowing in the wind, mindlessly running circles when confronted with confrontation you don't want to listen to.
Sorry but I was going to respond to you legitimately, but you proven completely to be a waste of my time. And I'm doing this on the clock at work to. *rolls eyes*
Congratz.
Also the Forsaken V PL? No thats one person using an alt to bait with. I know the guy.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Serene Repose
2387
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 08:01:37 -
[246] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec. EVE is a PvP game. PvP is, by definition, not griefing. The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out. EVE (by definition) is a game with PVP IN IT. We appreciate our reputation turning to internet rumor and myth. However, if you're going to sternly instruct, as it seems is your wont, get your facts straight.
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:10:16 -
[247] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:we should call it what it is - a grief dec. EVE is a PvP game. PvP is, by definition, not griefing. The rest of your post is just you repeating one delusional lie after another, so I cut it out.
Uhm... can I have some of what you are smoking?
Seriously... of course there is griefing in player versus player combat, tons of it even. From lowbie-ganking to outright blockades denying content (i.e. gank as soon as trying to leave 'safe' areas or camping NPCs that are vital to progress) to serial killing at respawn points ... griefing in PVP is pretty common, and it's one of the main headaches for guild leaders in PVP games, especially those who play the underdog faction.
And sure, the examples I give are mostly non-EVE, but this game too has plenty of examples. Container baiting at newbie stations? Challenging noobs to duels they cannot win? 6 wardecs on a starting player corp full of new players who don't even know how to fly a ship straight, let alone deal with a wardec?
I AM a hardcore PVPer. And I consider the above griefing, not PVP. It's abusing existing mechanics to generate fights the opponent cannot win so you can boost your ego on fake achievements.
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Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:11:39 -
[248] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:On the other hand, by staying in NPC corps many players also rob themselves of the opportunity to have other like minded folks help them understand some of the various ways to put the SP they do have to their greatest use.
It's a great deal easier to establish a rapport with possible mentors in a closely knit social environment than to try to do so by shouting into the seething mob.
Unless, of course, you're in an organised NPC corp like CAS... |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:13:42 -
[249] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Should make the cost of a wardec inversely proportional to the member count and total SP of a corp.
Deccing large, high SP corps becomes cheaper while deccing small or low SP corps becomes less profitable. I think one of the CSM candidates associated with the merc community actually suggested something similar.
Would require some interesting maths to fine tune. Maybe factor in assets aswell? I hate this type of logic. Skillpoints. DO NOT matter. Skillpoints only open more options for you to use. But 150mil SP vet can still die to a 15mil SP newbrah. Edit: SP Past 10mil don't matter.
15M SP is nine months with +3 implants and a decent remap. Not exactly new. Just because a veteran carebear can die to a relatively new ninja salvager in an incursus proves nothing.
When it comes down to it, there's simply not much you can do to fight an entity that can blob you with vindis on station or undock a roaming fleet of proteus and guardians, all with near perfect skills, when you are limited to tech 1 cruisers. Undock 30 gank catalysts and a brick tanked t3 with logi support will still laugh at you. SP opens options as you said, like being able to fly ships that are simply better at dealing with a given situation. Being able to undock BS BC and tech 2/3 cruisers from every race, faction BS/BC, or fully skilled t2 logi with near perfect skills for fitting, support, weapons and drones is an undeniably huge advantage and most hisec mercs I've seen fit this description.
To say SP doesn't matter is moronic. In a pvp contest, all other things being equal, higher SP in relevant skills will win. Having yoir ship be 5-10% better in even a few categories is a huge advantage. Having more options in ships and fits to employ is a huge advantage. I don't see why this isn't obvious.
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Lisa Ouyano
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:17:45 -
[250] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:On the other hand, by staying in NPC corps many players also rob themselves of the opportunity to have other like minded folks help them understand some of the various ways to put the SP they do have to their greatest use.
It's a great deal easier to establish a rapport with possible mentors in a closely knit social environment than to try to do so by shouting into the seething mob. Unless, of course, you're in an organised NPC corp like CAS...
Or SAK |
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Prince Kobol
2468
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:23:03 -
[251] - Quote
So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
231
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:47:11 -
[252] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
For the very same reason we support a football team, for the very same reason we wave a flag. for the very same reason we feel pride in what we create.
good enough ?
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Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:50:03 -
[253] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
For the very same reason we support a football team, for the very same reason we wave a flag. for the very same reason we feel pride in what we create. good enough ?
Not really.... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12132
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:51:28 -
[254] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:
Seriously... of course there is griefing in player versus player combat, tons of it even.
Nope.
"Griefing", as defined by CCP, is an actionable offense. Since none of those things you're describing are in fact against any rules in EVE Online, it follows that they are not griefing.
Quote:
I AM a hardcore PVPer. And I consider the above griefing, not PVP. It's abusing existing mechanics to generate fights the opponent cannot win so you can boost your ego on fake achievements.
There's another term for you.
Spaceship Samurai. But fortunately, EVE Online is not a game in which I have to kowtow to someone else's definitions.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Valkin Mordirc
772
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 09:52:23 -
[255] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
15M SP is nine months with +3 implants and a decent remap. Not exactly new. Just because a veteran carebear can die to a relatively new ninja salvager in an incursus proves nothing.
When it comes down to it, there's simply not much you can do to fight an entity that can blob you with vindis on station or undock a roaming fleet of proteus and guardians, all with near perfect skills, when you are limited to tech 1 cruisers. Undock 30 gank catalysts and a brick tanked t3 with logi support will still laugh at you. SP opens options as you said, like being able to fly ships that are simply better at dealing with a given situation. Being able to undock BS BC and tech 2/3 cruisers from every race, faction BS/BC, or fully skilled t2 logi with near perfect skills for fitting, support, weapons and drones is an undeniably huge advantage and most hisec mercs I've seen fit this description.
To say SP doesn't matter is moronic. In a pvp contest, all other things being equal, higher SP in relevant skills will win. Having yoir ship be 5-10% better in even a few categories is a huge advantage. Having more options in ships and fits to employ is a huge advantage. I don't see why this isn't obvious.
SP was a random number, Regardless.
Let me put this way.
Your out in your aweome 70+ Mill Toon. Your in Dodi. And you're flexxing your muscles with a Kronos. I'ts PVE fit but. Hey you can still tank a **** ton in Bastion.
Then you find some on yellow floating around station. He's only been playing for a year. And he's in a Harbinger/prophcey. So you shoot at him thinking you have an easy kill.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/45013722/
That you lose it. To a character who starting playing at the start of 2014.
That what I mean by SP doesn't matter.
SP opens doors for more options to counter with yeah. It's a big advantage. But it's nobody brings along Every ship wherever they go you know?
I have an alt out in lowsec that is 85mil SP. This character stays in Highsec and has 25mil sp. If My Alt and this Character went head to head. Both in Cruiser. Do you think the 85mil SP Alt would win? If you say yes, I would kindly say you are wrong
and possible right.
Valkin is spec into cruisers. Can fly every single one near perfect.
So can the alt.
So even though the alt is from 2011. And this one is from 2013. You don't really know who will win. 1v1.
Does that make more sense now?
#DeleteTheWeak
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
231
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 10:08:39 -
[256] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
For the very same reason we support a football team, for the very same reason we wave a flag. for the very same reason we feel pride in what we create. good enough ? Not really....
what would it take to get you to join a real corp then ? |
Errata Sum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 10:18:15 -
[257] - Quote
Because when your NPC corp is the Center for Advanced Studies there is no need to join a player corp, as we do almost everything that a player corp does, and unless I want to wardec or be wardecced, or play game of sovs, I have no reason to leave. |
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 10:33:28 -
[258] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
For the very same reason we support a football team, for the very same reason we wave a flag. for the very same reason we feel pride in what we create. good enough ? Not really.... what would it take to get you to join a real corp then ?
I'm in a real corp. If you mean what would make me join a player run corp...nothing. There is absolutely nothing that will make me leave CAS. You can cry and kick and scream and start as many threads on the topic as you like. But if CCP ever does anything to really obliterate the NPC corps I'll just unsub my accounts. |
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:42:06 -
[259] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
For the very same reason we support a football team, for the very same reason we wave a flag. for the very same reason we feel pride in what we create. good enough ? Not really.... what would it take to get you to join a real corp then ?
I'm the leader of a multi-game guild and have been since what seems to be the stone age... I have zero issues with the principle of player associations in game. I am very proud of my guild and what it stands for, and of the fact people we know from other games are happy to see us arrive in new ones, including our enemies.
I just have issues with EVE.
I WILL NOT expose my guild to a place where you cannot trust your own guild members. We operate on trust and always having the others' backs, and everyone in the guild has the right to guildinvite people they like playing with. And I bloody well refuse to start having NSA background checks and telling them no, you can't invite your husband 'cause we don't know where he's been....
I WILL NOT expose my guild to the craptastic wardec system that is in place here. By far the majority of us would be new to EVE, and there's no way the handful of vets playing could actually protect them. SP don't matter my ***.
And I am very much not interested in joining an EVE player corp myself, for the above reasons, and because like I've said before, hell will freeze over before I give anyone my API keys. Or obey orders on how to play the game, for that matter.
So I keep my mains in CAS (which, like a few other NPC corps, is organized and a lot of fun), tell any guild mates who want to try the game to do the same, but give a negative advice on starting EVE in the first place. Cause guess what, there's plenty of other games out there where we can hang as a guild without having these issues. |
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:42:57 -
[260] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
For the very same reason we support a football team, for the very same reason we wave a flag. for the very same reason we feel pride in what we create. good enough ? Not really.... what would it take to get you to join a real corp then ? I'm in a real corp. If you mean what would make me join a player run corp...nothing. There is absolutely nothing that will make me leave CAS. You can cry and kick and scream and start as many threads on the topic as you like. But if CCP ever does anything to really obliterate the NPC corps I'll just unsub my accounts.
Same here. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12133
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:48:57 -
[261] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:
I just have issues with EVE.
It shows.
This is paranoia on a whole other level, dude. Especially the part where you absolutely refuse to accept any risk that isn't dictated by you in advance. (which condemning other people who do the same)
It would not be a stretch for me to say that EVE is not for you.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:49:14 -
[262] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:
Seriously... of course there is griefing in player versus player combat, tons of it even.
Nope. "Griefing", as defined by CCP, is an actionable offense. Since none of those things you're describing are in fact against any rules in EVE Online, it follows that they are not griefing. Quote:
I AM a hardcore PVPer. And I consider the above griefing, not PVP. It's abusing existing mechanics to generate fights the opponent cannot win so you can boost your ego on fake achievements.
There's another term for you. Spaceship Samurai. But fortunately, EVE Online is not a game in which I have to kowtow to someone else's definitions.
Mate, a lot of the stuff you get away with in EVE will get you insta-banned in any other game. You may not consider it to be griefing, hell, the EVE devs may not consider it to be griefing, but you're all in a rather small minority, even for full-on PVP games (which EVE really, really isn't). Which kinda explains the problem with new player retention too. |
Gardav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:52:35 -
[263] - Quote
Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps?
The Devs of CCP made this marvelous game, and IMO it is a fantastic virtual experience of Space. Then they gave Players all the tools to be the biggest jerks to each other possible if they choose to do so... and of course many want to use those tools.... and CCP then thinks all of us would want to join a Player Corp? We all don't want to play with these tools that allow us to bring harm to others, even in a game.
I have no desire to be a jerk to others, I do not take pleasure in gratifying the greed lust for ISK or the lust for any type of Power, I don't find Fighting fun at all.... so why would I join a Player Corp that seeks ISK, Power, and Wardecs with KillMails? I would be an Outsider and a "fifth wheel" in a Corp and they would see me as a Liability not an Asset.
Players like me that don't play the game the way CCP thinks we should have joined together for years but that just ends in a Wardec and Players like us being minnows in a pool of sharks. I've been a dinner snack too many times in EVE. The more time goes on the less I will ever want to join a Player Corp, not because of CCP and the game rules but because of Player themselves.
It's a good thing CCP allows Players like me to join NPC Corps or Player Corps would have people like me inquiring much more to join them and Players that join Player Corps for would consider us headaches. Then Corp CEOs would be demanding CCP band us to get us out of the game.
I myself don't want to see EVE changed to better suit Players like myself. I have found a niche to "inhabit" in this game and I enjoy it. If CCP starts adjusting things many Players that are CCP target customer base will start having serious issues around here.
|
Gardav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:55:04 -
[264] - Quote
Gardav wrote:Lupe Meza wrote:The better question is why don't players join player corps? I can only speak for myself. The Devs of CCP made this marvelous game, and IMO it is a fantastic virtual experience of Space. Then they gave Players all the tools to be the biggest jerks to each other possible if they choose to do so... and of course many want to use those tools.... and CCP then thinks all of us would want to join a Player Corp? We all don't want to play with these tools that allow us to bring harm to others, even in a game. I have no desire to be a jerk to others, I do not take pleasure in gratifying the greed lust for ISK or the lust for any type of Power, I don't find Fighting fun at all.... so why would I join a Player Corp that seeks ISK, Power, and Wardecs with KillMails? I would be an Outsider and a "fifth wheel" in a Corp and they would see me as a Liability not an Asset. Players like me that don't play the game the way CCP thinks we should have joined together for years but that just ends in a Wardec and Players like us being minnows in a pool of sharks. I have from time to time found others in EVE that play the way I do but it's not easy for us to find each other so I myself gravitated to a NPC Corp as my permanent home Corp. It's a good thing CCP allows Players like me to join NPC Corps or Player Corps would have people like me inquiring much more to join them and Players that join Player Corps for would consider us headaches. Then Corp CEOs would be demanding CCP band us to get us out of the game. I myself don't want to see EVE changed to better suit Players like myself. I have found a niche to "inhabit" in this game and I enjoy it. If CCP starts adjusting things many Players that are CCP target customer base will start having serious issues around here.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12133
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:59:10 -
[265] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:
Mate, a lot of the stuff you get away with in EVE will get you insta-banned in any other game.
Oh, really?
When I still played World of Warcraft with my wife, I once followed someone across the entire game server for 7 consecutive hours, ganking him all the while. My only reason? He pissed me off by taking an herbalism node.
When he brought a GM in, the GM laughed and said "PvP happens on PvP servers."
Even in WoW, one of the most legendarily wussy of MMOs, you can PvP freely within the rules.
EVE's rules are simply more broad, with more avenues of attack.
Quote:
You may not consider it to be griefing, hell, the EVE devs may not consider it to be griefing, but you're all in a rather small minority, even for full-on PVP games (which EVE really, really isn't). Which kinda explains the problem with new player retention too.
Yeah, no. You do not get to define your own terms here. Only CCP's definition matters in this context, you can wave whichever dictionary you like at me.
PvP activity in this game, within the rules set by CCP, is not griefing by definition. Whether your attitude agrees or not.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 11:59:42 -
[266] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:
I just have issues with EVE.
It shows. This is paranoia on a whole other level, dude. Especially the part where you absolutely refuse to accept any risk that isn't dictated by you in advance. (which condemning other people who do the same) It would not be a stretch for me to say that EVE is not for you.
I think you're rather confusing things here. This game leaves you a lot of different paths to walk. I chose the NPC corp route, which is perfectly legitimate. It denies you certain options, but also gives you a few others. Just because those are not the options YOU chose, does not mean they are invalid. Or that EVE is not for people who don't do things your way |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12133
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 12:01:19 -
[267] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:
I just have issues with EVE.
It shows. This is paranoia on a whole other level, dude. Especially the part where you absolutely refuse to accept any risk that isn't dictated by you in advance. (which condemning other people who do the same) It would not be a stretch for me to say that EVE is not for you. I think you're rather confusing things here. This game leaves you a lot of different paths to walk. I chose the NPC corp route, which is perfectly legitimate. It denies you certain options, but also gives you a few others. Just because those are not the options YOU chose, does not mean they are invalid. Or that EVE is not for people who don't do things your way
That whooshing sound was the sound of the point going over your head.
I was talking about your little rant about how you WILL NOT do all variety of things, etc, etc.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1455
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 12:02:10 -
[268] - Quote
It's the same old story, Emergent gameplay vs Themepark gameplay.
This type of player enjoys safe havens where everything is safe and predictable, so they try to avoid situations that can lead to emergent gameplay scenarios. But even with their efforts, eventually they will face their first unexpected road block created by other players, and then they will quit the game crying about griefing.
The Tears Must Flow
|
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 12:16:05 -
[269] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:
I just have issues with EVE.
It shows. This is paranoia on a whole other level, dude. Especially the part where you absolutely refuse to accept any risk that isn't dictated by you in advance. (which condemning other people who do the same) It would not be a stretch for me to say that EVE is not for you. I think you're rather confusing things here. This game leaves you a lot of different paths to walk. I chose the NPC corp route, which is perfectly legitimate. It denies you certain options, but also gives you a few others. Just because those are not the options YOU chose, does not mean they are invalid. Or that EVE is not for people who don't do things your way That whooshing sound was the sound of the point going over your head. I was talking about your little rant about how you WILL NOT do all variety of things, etc, etc.
Not doing those things is a valid choice in this game. Again, it's you who are missing the point. This thread is about why people remain in NPC corps, in stead of moving on to player corps. I gave my personal reasons, you are just not willing to accept them.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12133
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 12:18:56 -
[270] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:
Not doing those things is a valid choice in this game.
You still misunderstand.
Your insistence to not share EVE with anyone you know, based solely on those hideous misconceptions about how the game works, is what I find to be both sad and bewildering.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
|
|
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 12:22:21 -
[271] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:It's the same old story, Emergent gameplay vs Themepark gameplay.
This type of player enjoys safe havens where everything is safe and predictable, so they try to avoid situations that can lead to emergent gameplay scenarios. But even with their efforts, eventually they will face their first unexpected road block created by other players, and then they will quit the game crying about griefing.
I don't think this is the case. Personally, I hate themeparks, play them through once and everything after is been-there-done-that boring. I much prefer sandboxes.
I'm also someone who prefers PVP games, some with WAY harsher rulesets than EVE (try permanently losing skills on each death, AND temporarily losing skills untill you pay a hefty price to get them back, AND suffering a debuff on each death AND having to pay to respawn).
And I still stay in an NPC corps.
/shrug |
Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 12:35:35 -
[272] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:
Not doing those things is a valid choice in this game.
You still misunderstand. Your insistence to not share EVE with anyone you know, based solely on those hideous misconceptions about how the game works, is what I find to be both sad and bewildering.
Lack of reading skills much? I also said some of us DO play this game. We just don't make a corp here.
As to misconceptions... puhlease... don't confuse forum alt with main character age or actual experience with the game. Some of us have been around in EVE since launch. And we actually HAVE seen exactly what happened to a few guilds we know who tried making a corp here. Wardecced on day 1, lost interest in playing within a month. It's so much fun after all if you can't even undock your nooby velator without getting exploded...
Who says we're not sharing by the way... we do tell them exactly what to expect. Which is why most aren't even remotely interested in even trying the game.  |
Erin Crawford
458
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 14:13:14 -
[273] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, really?
When I still played World of Warcraft with my wife, I once followed someone across the entire game server for 7 consecutive hours, ganking him all the while. My only reason? He pissed me off by taking an herbalism node...
...
"Those who talk donGÇÖt know. Those who know donGÇÖt talk. "
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4046
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 15:06:50 -
[274] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Errata Sum
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 15:26:30 -
[275] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:When I still played World of Warcraft with my wife, I once followed someone across the entire game server for 7 consecutive hours, ganking him all the while.
Please point on the doll where the gnome touched you. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
139
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 15:28:42 -
[276] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:
Mate, a lot of the stuff you get away with in EVE will get you insta-banned in any other game.
Oh, really? When I still played World of Warcraft with my wife, I once followed someone across the entire game server for 7 consecutive hours, ganking him all the while. My only reason? He pissed me off by taking an herbalism node. When he brought a GM in, the GM laughed and said "PvP happens on PvP servers." Even in WoW, one of the most legendarily wussy of MMOs, you can PvP freely within the rules. EVE's rules are simply more broad, with more avenues of attack. Quote:
You may not consider it to be griefing, hell, the EVE devs may not consider it to be griefing, but you're all in a rather small minority, even for full-on PVP games (which EVE really, really isn't). Which kinda explains the problem with new player retention too.
Yeah, no. You do not get to define your own terms here. Only CCP's definition matters in this context, you can wave whichever dictionary you like at me. PvP activity in this game, within the rules set by CCP, is not griefing by definition. Whether your attitude agrees or not.
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
The End....good, you came around to understand the meaning of sandbox.
|
Anabella Rella
Gradient
1916
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 16:30:39 -
[277] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:It's the same old story, Emergent gameplay vs Themepark gameplay.
This type of player enjoys safe havens where everything is safe and predictable, so they try to avoid situations that can lead to emergent gameplay scenarios. But even with their efforts, eventually they will face their first unexpected road block created by other players, and then they will quit the game crying about griefing.
What a load of bigoted, elitist crap. Even if these horrid generalizations were correct, so what? That's their business. When you pay their sub fees then you get to dictate and judge how someone else plays. Until then, step down from your high mountain and breathe. Seems the thin air up where you are has deprived your brain of oxygen and damaged your critical thinking skills.
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
|
Jvpiter
Jovelike
3482
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 16:43:41 -
[278] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
This is logically impossible. Everyone cannot be simultaneously allowed to play single player and multiplayer at the same time. One style of gameplay must be secondary to the other.
In EVE, your right to play single player ends when someone decides to shoot you, or .01 ISK you, or insert any PVP action here.
It is as simple as that.
Call me Joe.
|
Gardav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 18:46:23 -
[279] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
This is logically impossible. Everyone cannot be simultaneously allowed to play single player and multiplayer at the same time. One style of gameplay must be secondary to the other. In EVE, your right to play single player ends when someone decides to shoot you, or .01 ISK you, or insert any PVP action here. It is as simple as that.
At no time in EVE have I ever played it as a single player game, nor have I ever been confused about that issue. EVE is a multiplayer game in so many ways they can't be counted. After chatting with others in NPC Corps over the years I get the sense that they too realize EVE is a multiplayer as well.
Yet some of us chose to keep our characters in NPC Corps. In a Multiplayer Game. The Original Poster of this thread asked why and some of us have tried to explain why. We don't expect everyone to understand our reasoning.
It's simply a choice we each have made in this Sandbox MMO. The beauty of Sandbox MMOs is that we all are allowed by the Devs to make whatever choices we wish to (within the game rules), and in so doing we are seeing to our own satisfaction as customers better than any Customer Service Rep employed by CCP ever could, not to mention we contribute to the entire game as a whole and thus make it a richer experience for all.
See You In Space. |
Orlacc
840
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 19:14:27 -
[280] - Quote
Thorn en Distel wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:It's the same old story, Emergent gameplay vs Themepark gameplay.
This type of player enjoys safe havens where everything is safe and predictable, so they try to avoid situations that can lead to emergent gameplay scenarios. But even with their efforts, eventually they will face their first unexpected road block created by other players, and then they will quit the game crying about griefing. I don't think this is the case. Personally, I hate themeparks, play them through once and everything after is been-there-done-that boring. I much prefer sandboxes. I'm also someone who prefers PVP games, some with WAY harsher rulesets than EVE (try permanently losing skills on each death, AND temporarily losing skills untill you pay a hefty price to get them back, AND suffering a debuff on each death AND having to pay to respawn). And I still stay in an NPC corps. /shrug
Which elf games do this? Permanent skill loss?
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
|
|
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
140
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 19:57:57 -
[281] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
This is logically impossible. Everyone cannot be simultaneously allowed to play single player and multiplayer at the same time. One style of gameplay must be secondary to the other. In EVE, your right to play single player ends when someone decides to shoot you, or .01 ISK you, or insert any PVP action here. It is as simple as that.
Moving goal posts and Alice in Wonderland logic.
E for effort. |
Prince Kobol
2471
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 20:03:30 -
[282] - Quote
I will throw my own two pence in.
NPC Corps are one of many things CCP has gotten badly wrong and failed to correct it until it has become almost impossible to do anything with.
For me NPC corps should of only ever of been something that a player stayed in short while whilst searching for another corp or when taking time out.
Yes I agree that war decs are complete rubbish and need to be completely scrapped and started over again but it will never happen.
The thing is this topic has come up time and time again and the truth of the matter nothing will ever change because CCP will never nerf NPC corps or do awsy with war decs whilst the PCU continues on its downwards curve and they are losing subs so get used to it. |
MiSANTHR0PE
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 20:10:51 -
[283] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:It's the same old story, Emergent gameplay vs Themepark gameplay.
This type of player enjoys safe havens where everything is safe and predictable, so they try to avoid situations that can lead to emergent gameplay scenarios. But even with their efforts, eventually they will face their first unexpected road block created by other players, and then they will quit the game crying about griefing. I don't think this is the case. Personally, I hate themeparks, play them through once and everything after is been-there-done-that boring. I much prefer sandboxes. I'm also someone who prefers PVP games, some with WAY harsher rulesets than EVE (try permanently losing skills on each death, AND temporarily losing skills untill you pay a hefty price to get them back, AND suffering a debuff on each death AND having to pay to respawn). And I still stay in an NPC corps. /shrug Which elf games do this? Permanent skill loss?
Haven & Hearth
My main lived in npc corp for around a year, now in a one man band corp, for no other reason than I'm not too sociable, slightly introvert and can be a little shy, I did try two player corps and enjoyed the fleets and playing with others, but not so much the social side, most corps expect you to be chatty on coms etc, which i understand, but its just not for me, it tires me out.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34772
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 20:59:40 -
[284] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Jvpiter wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
This is logically impossible. Everyone cannot be simultaneously allowed to play single player and multiplayer at the same time. One style of gameplay must be secondary to the other. In EVE, your right to play single player ends when someone decides to shoot you, or .01 ISK you, or insert any PVP action here. It is as simple as that. Moving goal posts and Alice in Wonderland logic. E for effort.
I don't think he's moved the goalposts at all.
I also don't think the definition of sandbox is that everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
It's more commonly defined as placing minimal limitations on players, so they have freedom to choose how and when to do things. It might seem the same as what you wrote, but it isn't.
None of us are allowed to play the way we want all the time. Interaction with other players making their choices leading to conflict (not just shooting, but conflict in choices) is going to make someone change what they are doing.
I think that is what Jvpiter was saying. Sandbox yes. Everyone allowed to play the way they want, impossible.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Caladin Brood
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 21:02:01 -
[285] - Quote
why? ok case in point, i decided to try a new char out an joined a brand new corp, social blah de blah
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
make of it as you will, but to put it simply, to retain new players this needs to stop |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34777
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 21:29:56 -
[286] - Quote
Caladin Brood wrote:why? ok case in point, i decided to try a new char out an joined a brand new corp, social blah de blah
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
make of it as you will, but to put it simply, to retain new players this needs to stop
Sorry you had 10 wardecs like that, but they aren't that bad.
If you are in the right Corp, they are easily managed and everyone continues to have fun.
Wardecs aren't something to be scared of or ticked off about. The worst that happens is a lost ship and pod, both of which are expendable tools in this game anyway. But that can mostly be avoided in a good Corp.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Caladin Brood
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 21:38:53 -
[287] - Quote
They dont bother me as i dont bother about isk or killboards, it is just a prime example of how a new player who does not know anything is introduced to eve, luckily for me it was a alt an not a actually "new player" experience, if it was a new player experience i'd a just lol'd an been thankfull for the trial |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34780
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 22:30:35 -
[288] - Quote
Caladin Brood wrote:They dont bother me as i dont bother about isk or killboards, it is just a prime example of how a new player who does not know anything is introduced to eve, luckily for me it was a alt an not a actually "new player" experience, if it was a new player experience i'd a just lol'd an been thankfull for the trial
Which Corp was this?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Caladin Brood
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 22:39:47 -
[289] - Quote
Doesnt matter, naming a corp on these boards just invites more decs, same as disagreeing with ppl |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone
Caldari State
4129
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 22:45:11 -
[290] - Quote
WarDecs are abused and often NPC corps offer the only recourse to being continually harassed.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12134
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 22:58:48 -
[291] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
Nope.
You can try to succeed at whatever you want.
But you don't get to automatically succeed at whatever you try. Since EVE is a PvP game, other people get to have their say.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
ProBear Johnsson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.14 23:56:11 -
[292] - Quote
. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
135
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 00:18:41 -
[293] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Caladin Brood wrote:why? ok case in point, i decided to try a new char out an joined a brand new corp, social blah de blah
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
make of it as you will, but to put it simply, to retain new players this needs to stop Sorry you had 10 wardecs like that, but they aren't that bad. If you are in the right Corp, they are easily managed and everyone continues to have fun. Wardecs aren't something to be scared of or ticked off about. The worst that happens is a lost ship and pod, both of which are expendable tools in this game anyway. But that can mostly be avoided in a good Corp.
They are not manageable, as eve combat pvp is a) boring b) not accessible to people without at least 50 million SP.
Being camped is not fun. Being unable to undock is not fun. Go ask eve uni how many "students" they lost to lockouts.
The only way to avoid a ship loss is dropping corp. If you undock in a grief dec, most of the time you will get tackled by a neutral alt, which will hold you still just long enough for a grief deccer ceptor to arrive.
Losing a ship and a pod in a fight is very frustrating and will deter even me from continuing to play eve. Even if it's just a frigate and empty pod - every time I lost some of those I took a break from eve for a few months. Mostly by unsubbing. And that is me, who has 11-figure wallet, and has never been caught in a barge or pve ship with my pants down. Imagine what it does to a new player and you'll get the picture.
While I do not talk about war decs, grief decs I believe to be #1 source of bad retention.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34781
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 00:41:21 -
[294] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:They are not manageable, ...
They are totally manageable. We have 2 wardecs against us at the moment.
As a pvp Alliance, we have no problem with that whatsoever and we have many new players, none of whom are worried either because we help them manage the issue.
As for eve-uni, they teach people to be an F1 monkey. Great to go to for non-pvp related training, but if you want to learn pvp, don't join eve-uni.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12135
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 00:57:25 -
[295] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
While I do not talk about war decs, grief decs I believe to be #1 source of bad retention.
You believe wrong.
CCP themselves have stated that they can find zero link between non consensual PvP and retention.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
231
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 01:16:24 -
[296] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So 13 pages in and I have yet to see anybody give a good reason why players should leave a NPC corp if they are based in HS and even low sec depending on what they are doing
For the very same reason we support a football team, for the very same reason we wave a flag. for the very same reason we feel pride in what we create. good enough ? Not really.... what would it take to get you to join a real corp then ? I'm in a real corp. If you mean what would make me join a player run corp...nothing. There is absolutely nothing that will make me leave CAS. You can cry and kick and scream and start as many threads on the topic as you like. But if CCP ever does anything to really obliterate the NPC corps I'll just unsub my accounts.
i'm not crying nor screaming.nor kicking, nor have i ever started a thread about NPC corps. if you're just another,, hey CCP if you change something i'll leave,, then away you go now, because it's never long in EVE before shite changes.
i couldn't care less really, EVE is all about what you want to do personally, so if being in an NPC corp is what you want. then knock yourself out. but strange that you wave your CAS flag. well at least you get being in a group isn't a bad thing at all.
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
140
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 01:35:47 -
[297] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
Nope. You can try to succeed at whatever you want. But you don't get to automatically succeed at whatever you try. Since EVE is a PvP game, other people get to have their say.
If you are so much into pvp why are you hiding in hi-sec and avoiding other like minded individuals.
Answer: Because they shoot back and that isn't what you want.
Code showed how much into pvp they were when they all logged out of the tourney due to ships being banned. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34781
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 01:43:33 -
[298] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:If you are so much into pvp why are you hiding in hi-sec and avoiding other like minded individuals.
What? There is no pvp in highsec and no one that wants to pvp in highsec?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12137
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 01:48:33 -
[299] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
If you are so much into pvp why are you hiding in hi-sec and avoiding other like minded individuals.
Oh, that's easy. Because highsec has more targets, and more deserving targets. No one needs PvP visited on them more than the people who insist that it shouldn't happen.
Cry more about how I'm allowed to make a choice you don't like.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
315
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 01:59:38 -
[300] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
Nope. You can try to succeed at whatever you want. But you don't get to automatically succeed at whatever you try. Since EVE is a PvP game, other people get to have their say.
Hmm. The only place I see succeed written is in your response. |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34782
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 02:07:16 -
[301] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
Nope. You can try to succeed at whatever you want. But you don't get to automatically succeed at whatever you try. Since EVE is a PvP game, other people get to have their say. Hmm. The only place I see succeed written is in your response.
It's just a comment. The language doesn't have to be interpreted so literally.
I think it's reasonable to think that most people don't set out to fail at doing something. So, when the original comment of "everyone is allowed to play the way they want" is made, it's probably not unreasonable to conclude they are trying to achieve something they want to do.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
315
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 02:19:56 -
[302] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
And the definition of sandbox is everyone is allowed to play the way they want.
Nope. You can try to succeed at whatever you want. But you don't get to automatically succeed at whatever you try. Since EVE is a PvP game, other people get to have their say. Hmm. The only place I see succeed written is in your response. It's just a comment. The language doesn't have to be interpreted so literally. I think it's reasonable to think that most people don't set out to fail at doing something. So, when the original comment of "everyone is allowed to play the way they want" is made, it's probably not unreasonable to conclude they are trying to achieve something they want to do.
Whatever floats your boat. I think he was being infintile because the idea of another player ignoring or avoiding him hurts his feewwwingsss. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12137
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 02:21:01 -
[303] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:
Whatever floats your boat. I think he was being infintile because the idea of another player ignoring or avoiding him hurts his feewwwingsss.
*infantile.
At least spell it correctly, if you're going to try and insult me.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34782
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 02:25:01 -
[304] - Quote
Harrison Tato wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:
Hmm. The only place I see succeed written is in your response.
It's just a comment. The language doesn't have to be interpreted so literally. Whatever floats your boat.
Should I take that literally, or is it just a general statement?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 02:26:20 -
[305] - Quote
Why do NPC corps bother people so much? If it is just the fact that the people you wardec can jump to a NPC corp to avoid you then shouldn't you be going after that specific mechanic? Or look at wardec as a whole?
What about me being forced out of an NPC corp would make your game play experience more enjoyable? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12137
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 02:29:37 -
[306] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much?
Their risk/reward ratio is hugely skewed.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34783
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 02:31:44 -
[307] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much? If it is just the fact that the people you wardec can jump to a NPC corp to avoid you then shouldn't you be going after that specific mechanic? Or look at wardec as a whole?
What about me being forced out of an NPC corp would make your game play experience more enjoyable?
I don't think it bothers anyone as such.
The OP was just a general question since CCPs data suggests that players that remain in an NPC Corp quit Eve earlier than players that move to player run Corps.
The thread was prompted by the friendly fire safety switch, which was introduced because CCP believe that one of the reasons Corps don't recruit is because of awoxing.
So the discussion is the other side of the coin so to speak.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
140
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:08:09 -
[308] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much?
Their risk/reward ratio is hugely skewed.
You are in hi-sec killing players who don't fight back vs being in low or null fighting other pvp players.
You should be the last one to talk about risk.
Its obvious you are risk averse. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12137
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:17:05 -
[309] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
You are in hi-sec killing players who don't fight back vs being in low or null fighting other pvp players.
You should be the last one to talk about risk.
Its obvious you are risk averse.
I wasn't aware that people we wardec are forbidden from shooting back. My level of risk is theirs to dictate, after all. Their failure in that regard belongs solely to them.
And heck, if you're talking about ganking, there is no riskier profession. Neg tens can be shot by literally anyone without recourse.
Such projection from you. Here you are arguing that risk should be taken away, and saying that disagreement is itself risk averse. Do you think anyone will fall for that lie?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
The Volition Cult
1102
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:20:25 -
[310] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much? If it is just the fact that the people you wardec can jump to a NPC corp to avoid you then shouldn't you be going after that specific mechanic? Or look at wardec as a whole?
What about me being forced out of an NPC corp would make your game play experience more enjoyable? NPC corp + high sec + veterans = high ISK for lowest risk = economic impacts with farmed items.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids.
.
SOV is stagnant because Low Sec is not the next step from High Sec and a viable place to grow alliances to the point they can challenge Null alliances.
Fozzie is treating a symptom.
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
252
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:24:57 -
[311] - Quote
Personally.
1) I'm afraid joining a corp would create a bigger sense of obligation to Eve than I have time for. I've spent a lot of time on Eve, but it's exactly when I want to -- not when I have to show up for my bros or CTA.
2) I play Eve for intellectual challenge,in game goals and entertainment. I have a family and social circle so I'm not seeking to expand that through a game. (Although I think it's a great way for people that do - only downside is that it can be fleeting)
3) Because I don't have to. There are still plenty of things I want to do in the game that I can do by myself and my alts.
4) No drama. I don't have to deal with immature players, self-important jerks, blowhards or key individuals disappearing leaving the corp in disarray.
The last thing I want is for Eve to insist that I join a corp for my own good.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:33:15 -
[312] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Caladin Brood wrote:why? ok case in point, i decided to try a new char out an joined a brand new corp, social blah de blah
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
boom wardec
make of it as you will, but to put it simply, to retain new players this needs to stop Sorry you had 10 wardecs like that, but they aren't that bad. If you are in the right Corp, they are easily managed and everyone continues to have fun. Wardecs aren't something to be scared of or ticked off about. The worst that happens is a lost ship and pod, both of which are expendable tools in this game anyway. But that can mostly be avoided in a good Corp.
If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12137
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:35:42 -
[313] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum.
Never heard of the Griffon, I take it? Most wardec corps are pretty little, so even a relatively small corp can have numbers on them, and ewar leverages numbers better than almost anything else you can do in highsec.
Yes, there are things you can do when decced. Just because they don't constitute being able to ignore wardecs completely doesn't mean it's not a viable way to do it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34783
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:37:37 -
[314] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum.
Yeah, a collection of new players forming a Corp in highsec is not a great idea, but not because of the risk of loss. Simply because they are unlikely to know how to manage the wardec so they can still have fun.
Being new doesn't mean you are just cannon fodder. It's relatively easy for a new player, even during a war, to continue to have fun playing the game, even in highsec.
I don't know what playing with a half dozen alts would be like personally.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:41:03 -
[315] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much? If it is just the fact that the people you wardec can jump to a NPC corp to avoid you then shouldn't you be going after that specific mechanic? Or look at wardec as a whole?
What about me being forced out of an NPC corp would make your game play experience more enjoyable?
Folk don't like the idea of there being any place in the game where they aren't allowed, or rather where it is mechanically very difficult, to blow up other people's ships. Especially when the people who gravitate to those areas tend to fly needlessly expensive things and react badly to their being exploded. I feel this myself when I ship scan a 3 month old toon in a faction fit Vindicator with 8x Fed Navy railguns. I sympathize. But I think its good for the game to have somewhere thats not a free fire zone, especially when EVE pvp basically comes down to SP and blobbing, with an occasional dash of FC competence.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:46:44 -
[316] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum. Yeah, a collection of new players forming a Corp in highsec is not a great idea, but not because of the risk of loss. Simply because they are unlikely to know how to manage the wardec so they can still have fun. Being new doesn't mean you are just cannon fodder. It's relatively easy for a new player, even during a war, to continue to have fun playing the game, even in highsec.
You can't undock a wardecced toon without instantly popping up on someone's watchlist, assuming your dockup station doesn't already have a neutral scout babysitting. Even then the cycle of watchlist ping > locator agent > neutral eyes pinpoint target > gank proteus vs tech 1 barge or BC takes all of 15 minutes assuming they aren't missioning in Outer Mongolia.
I agree there's alot of people running corps who aren't up to it but that's not gonna change unless corp startup requirements do.
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23925
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:49:48 -
[317] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much?
Their risk/reward ratio is hugely skewed.
As a person in an NPC corp, I would agree with this assessment. However, in EVE, if the risk/reward benefit is hugely skewed for something could you really blame someone for choosing it? It would be foolish not to.
Wardecs and NPC corps need to be fixed, no question. Social corps and Awox buttons are not the way.
Sleep all day. Party all night. Never grow old. Never die. -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34784
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 03:58:14 -
[318] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:You can't undock a wardecced toon without instantly popping up on someone's watchlist, assuming your dockup station doesn't already have a neutral scout babysitting. Even then the cycle of watchlist ping > locator agent > neutral eyes pinpoint target > gank proteus vs tech 1 barge or BC takes all of 15 minutes assuming they aren't missioning in Outer Mongolia.
I agree there's alot of people running corps who aren't up to it but that's not gonna change unless corp startup requirements do.
I wish I was that important that wardec Corps were spending that much energy trying to disrupt my gameplay. Unfortunately, like 99.9% of other players, I'm not.
Just applying some simple methods and common sense makes it easy to continue to have fun in highsec during a wardec. Highsec is pretty big and wardec Corps and mercs usually have multiple wars active. They are easy to avoid if that's what you want to do.
We seem to have drifted off topic though. There are other threads on wardecs that this could be continued in though. Happy to do so.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:04:51 -
[319] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum.
Never heard of the Griffon, I take it? Most wardec corps are pretty little, so even a relatively small corp can have numbers on them, and ewar leverages numbers better than almost anything else you can do in highsec. Yes, there are things you can do when decced. Just because they don't constitute being able to ignore wardecs completely doesn't mean it's not a viable way to do it.
Once again, if highsec newbie corps were filled with players who understand pvp tactics and fleet doctrines, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12138
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:06:59 -
[320] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Once again, if highsec newbie corps were filled with players who understand pvp tactics and fleet doctrines, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
And?
Are you suggesting that they simply be immune? Or that they should be able to win when playing the game incorrectly?
It seems fairly simple to me. New players need to be taught, not by one another obviously. Why should a corp unsuitable for this do well? If they are weeded out, it leaves more room for the worthwhile corps to recruit.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:07:30 -
[321] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:You can't undock a wardecced toon without instantly popping up on someone's watchlist, assuming your dockup station doesn't already have a neutral scout babysitting. Even then the cycle of watchlist ping > locator agent > neutral eyes pinpoint target > gank proteus vs tech 1 barge or BC takes all of 15 minutes assuming they aren't missioning in Outer Mongolia.
I agree there's alot of people running corps who aren't up to it but that's not gonna change unless corp startup requirements do.
I wish I was that important that wardec Corps were spending that much energy trying to disrupt my gameplay. Unfortunately, like 99.9% of other players, I'm not. Just applying some simple methods and common sense makes it easy to continue to have fun in highsec during a wardec. Highsec is pretty big and wardec Corps and mercs usually have multiple wars active. They are easy to avoid if that's what you want to do. We seem to have drifted off topic though. There are other threads on wardecs that this could be continued in though. Happy to do so.
It's not that hard to run a locator and move a neutral scout around in a frig on your second monitor. Especially if you know your target is a dumbass who doesn't understand how game of alts works or what locators do.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34785
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:13:35 -
[322] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:It's not that hard to run a locator and move a neutral scout around in a frig on your second monitor. Especially if you know your target is a dumbass who doesn't understand how game of alts works or what locators do.
Of course it's not hard, but we just aren't that important on an individual level either.
New players joining nee player Corps are going to struggle. I agree with you that it would be good if there were some minimum requirements to start a Corp. That would result in a lot of change in the view of wardecs.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12138
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:16:15 -
[323] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:It's not that hard to run a locator and move a neutral scout around in a frig on your second monitor. Especially if you know your target is a dumbass who doesn't understand how game of alts works or what locators do.
Of course it's not hard, but we just aren't that important on an individual level either. New players joining nee player Corps are going to struggle. I agree with you that it would be good if there were some minimum requirements to start a Corp. That would result in a lot of change in the view of wardecs.
Bingo. A lot of the problems with "new player corps" is that the bar is set so low for corp creation. It trivializes the mechanic.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:16:35 -
[324] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Once again, if highsec newbie corps were filled with players who understand pvp tactics and fleet doctrines, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
And? Are you suggesting that they simply be immune? Or that they should be able to win when playing the game incorrectly? It seems fairly simple to me. New players need to be taught, not by one another obviously. Why should a corp unsuitable for this do well? If they are weeded out, it leaves more room for the worthwhile corps to recruit.
Who's to do the teaching if all the bittervets are busy farming them for stats?
I think some sort of tweak to the wardec system that disincentivizes deccing corps low in SP and assets would solve the problem.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 04:27:51 -
[325] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:It's not that hard to run a locator and move a neutral scout around in a frig on your second monitor. Especially if you know your target is a dumbass who doesn't understand how game of alts works or what locators do.
Of course it's not hard, but we just aren't that important on an individual level either. New players joining nee player Corps are going to struggle. I agree with you that it would be good if there were some minimum requirements to start a Corp. That would result in a lot of change in the view of wardecs. Bingo. A lot of the problems with "new player corps" is that the bar is set so low for corp creation. It trivializes the mechanic.
Set the bar as high as you like you'll still have old characters with only pve experience and no leadership skills to speak of starting corps, recruiting a bunch of likeminded players and newbs, getting obliterated in a cascade of wardecs and doing the same thing again a few months down the road.
It would be nice if the bittervets would make a conscious decision to challenge themselves instead of going after the easy targets, but risk-aversion is just as ingrained in their playstyle as it is in that of the "carebears."
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12138
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 05:01:36 -
[326] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Who's to do the teaching if all the bittervets are busy farming them for stats?
Oh puh-leez.
Of all of the mid-high skillpoint players in highsec right now, I very much doubt than even 10% of them are in wardec corps. It's probably lower than that.
Quote:
I think some sort of tweak to the wardec system that disincentivizes deccing corps low in SP and assets would solve the problem.
And I think that CCP themselves have stated that non consensual PvP has no ramifications on player retention.
And that taking player freedom away to serve the purely theoretical purpose of "helping newbies" is disingenuous at best.
Quote:
It would be nice if the bittervets would make a conscious decision to challenge themselves instead of going after the easy targets, but risk-aversion is just as ingrained in their playstyle as it is in that of the "carebears."
And here you are mischaracterizing the motives of people you don't like.
If you hadn't yet figured this out, far more people do the former, than the latter. Ever heard of Eve University? RvB?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
4681
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 07:02:34 -
[327] - Quote
Yzar Soikutsu wrote:I am not in a corp because corps of 1 or 2 players just declare war on our corp everytime we are in jita or other high traffic areas in the hope of getting easy kills.
Don't be an easy kill?
Example: great way to get frequent wardecs is to AFK in a freighter. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7951
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 07:06:31 -
[328] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Why do NPC corps bother people so much?
Their risk/reward ratio is hugely skewed. As a person in an NPC corp, I would agree with this assessment. However, in EVE, if the risk/reward benefit is hugely skewed for something could you really blame someone for choosing it? It would be foolish not to. Wardecs and NPC corps need to be fixed, no question. Social corps and Awox buttons are not the way.
Wardecs, yes. NPC corps, no.
The only thing wrong with NPC corps is that they cause a flood of tears in this forum from people that like to use words like 'force' when discussing game mechanics. For some reason these alleged sandbox promoters seem to get real wound up when someone else is not using the sandbox the way they want them to.
Now wardecs on the other hand...where do I even start. The entire thing needs to be wiped out and started from scratch. So many years of patchwork fixes has done nothing but make it worse. CCP has had the time now to see what works and what doesn't. It's time to grab the bull by the horns and rewrite all that legacy code into something befitting of this century.
Sure, it'll be a pain in the ass for the coders and will use up a lot of time some might consider wasted, but it needs to be done. Else it will just keep getting more muddled and more unworkable as each new layer of 'fixes' gets rammed on to it.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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ashley Eoner
457
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 07:59:56 -
[329] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Yzar Soikutsu wrote:I am not in a corp because corps of 1 or 2 players just declare war on our corp everytime we are in jita or other high traffic areas in the hope of getting easy kills. Don't be an easy kill? Example: great way to get frequent wardecs is to AFK in a freighter.
I got more wardecs on my corps when mining than any other single activity. |
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
315
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 08:41:01 -
[330] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Harrison Tato wrote:
Whatever floats your boat. I think he was being infintile because the idea of another player ignoring or avoiding him hurts his feewwwingsss.
*infantile. At least spell it correctly, if you're going to try and insult me.
I meant that you go on forever. Nice spelling catch though. You win he internet. |
|
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Ferni Ka'Nviiou
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
10006
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 08:52:07 -
[331] - Quote
Risk/Reward ratio in NPC corps is skewed, is it?
Well, how terrible.
It must be really risky for folks who Station Trade in Jita.
It's almost like.... You're talking with your heads in your asses. |
Malcaz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 08:52:58 -
[332] - Quote
Why restrict yourself to being in a null alliance or being in a npc corp?
Among other things I keep an alt in a null alliance and an alt in RvB that I can switch to when I feel like that kind of gameplay. With my main I like being able to go around highsec in safety. I can join NPSI communities and take a ship into solo pvp in null. I can base out of NPC null and go back to HS when I feel like it. There is no shortage of pvp opportunities if you want to be in a NPC corp. I can do incursions to make a ton of money and do missions when I feel like it. NPC corp chat also provides a community. It's the best of all worlds. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1456
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 09:43:26 -
[333] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:It's the same old story, Emergent gameplay vs Themepark gameplay.
This type of player enjoys safe havens where everything is safe and predictable, so they try to avoid situations that can lead to emergent gameplay scenarios. But even with their efforts, eventually they will face their first unexpected road block created by other players, and then they will quit the game crying about griefing. What a load of bigoted, elitist crap. Even if these horrid generalizations were correct, so what? That's their business. When you pay their sub fees then you get to dictate and judge how someone else plays. Until then, step down from your high mountain and breathe. Seems the thin air up where you are has deprived your brain of oxygen and damaged your critical thinking skills.
In sandbox MMO-RPG's, players can try to dictate the way someone else plays the game. It's all about player interaction, interaction that affects how other players play and interact with both the game and other players. What you do not get to do in the sandbox is decide who you will not interact with. You can choose to interact with player A, even if player A would rather not interact with you. They have little say in the matter. They can make an effort to avoid you, but that in itself is an act of interaction. You have forced them to recognize you, take heed of you. Anyone can dictate and judge how someone else plays. This is what makes emergent gameplay possible in EvE Online, it's what makes this game special.
PS: You might need to oxygenate your brain to understand this post, try reading while doing Yoga breathing techniques.
The Tears Must Flow
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Thorn en Distel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
43
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 10:19:28 -
[334] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:Thorn en Distel wrote:Vaju Enki wrote:It's the same old story, Emergent gameplay vs Themepark gameplay.
This type of player enjoys safe havens where everything is safe and predictable, so they try to avoid situations that can lead to emergent gameplay scenarios. But even with their efforts, eventually they will face their first unexpected road block created by other players, and then they will quit the game crying about griefing. I don't think this is the case. Personally, I hate themeparks, play them through once and everything after is been-there-done-that boring. I much prefer sandboxes. I'm also someone who prefers PVP games, some with WAY harsher rulesets than EVE (try permanently losing skills on each death, AND temporarily losing skills untill you pay a hefty price to get them back, AND suffering a debuff on each death AND having to pay to respawn). And I still stay in an NPC corps. /shrug Which elf games do this? Permanent skill loss?
Might want to do something about that unfortunate elf obsession...
Now, pretending I still take you seriously after that comment:
Aion ('demons' and 'angels') had permanent xp loss on death, last I played it, and Star Wars Galaxies (Science Fiction based sandbox) had permanent skill point loss on Jedi death (before NGE). In both cases meaning you had to just regrind the xp/sp.
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soicanforumpostsafely
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 10:58:50 -
[335] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I think some sort of tweak to the wardec system that disincentivizes deccing corps low in SP and assets would solve the problem.
Yes, because that wouldn't result in SP and assets being parked in NPC corps at all......
Making low SP and low asset value PCs safe, will make PCs low SP and low asset value.
I can see the recruitment boards now "2.5 mill max SP, 100 mill max assets, keep your experienced and wealthy alts in the NPCs" |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
135
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 11:32:11 -
[336] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
You are in hi-sec killing players who don't fight back vs being in low or null fighting other pvp players.
You should be the last one to talk about risk.
Its obvious you are risk averse.
I wasn't aware that people we wardec are forbidden from shooting back. My level of risk is theirs to dictate, after all. Their failure in that regard belongs solely to them. And heck, if you're talking about ganking, there is no riskier profession. Neg tens can be shot by literally anyone without recourse. Such projection from you. Here you are arguing that risk should be taken away, and saying that disagreement is itself risk averse. Do you think anyone will fall for that lie?
You are in a free ship and risk nothing. If it's destroyed you just get new free ship. Failing a gank is literally like failing to walk irl - it's been made that simple, not just people with their eyes and ears closed, even dogs can do it. If you fail at ganking, then maybe you have to stop eve and start a tic-tac-toe career.
Gankers never have any risk, even loot fairy they complain about every time is averaging in the long run.
I wonder how many hours CODE would've existed if my proposed change "reduce CONCORD reaction time to multiple crimes on the same grid" passes. This change would mean you can't just spam 30 free wankalysts on anyone and have to choose your ship comp and wankompany size against reaction time reduction to achieve the same results of brainless wankalyst spam. This would introduce skill cap to ganking, and create some kind of limit in how much damage can top damage ships in X number do, before adding more numbers would start reducing overall damage done - around this limit a freighter ehp balance pass can be made to solve the N+1 issue of wankalyst gank, which gave CCP Lapdog(Fozzie) such a hard time in his latest attempt. And it practically doesn't affect "full yield miner" ganks in the slightest, so whoever is going to cry about those may kindly shut up.
And yes, targets of grief dec are carefully selected to have no ability to shoot back. Otherwise you won't grief dec them, because you are even afraid some useless allies are going to join them, even though they can do nothing to you while you use invulnerability exploit.
I have a draft on how to remake war decs with parts of Fozziesov(don't worry, not a single structure is in that draft, just one module), where they stay like now if defender doesn't want to fight, but have a way to challenge deccer to a fight in equal numbers the defender can field, with war funds as the prize, while deccer gets most of the war dec cost back if the defender doesn't turn up. The good part is that defender can hire mercs to challenge deccer for them, making them not useless for the defender, and if deccer doesn't fight, he loses his dec funds and war ends. In turn, defenders dropping corp has a cost which is added to the war fund grief deccer can claim if no challenge has succeeded. It has some problems I have no solutions for, but I will be publishing its draft for discussion somewhere in the next two weeks.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
9094
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 11:42:57 -
[337] - Quote
Alts. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
135
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 12:05:59 -
[338] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:If you are a new player with one account, losing a cruiser or BC or your first T1 battleship can be a major setback. And there's no way for a collection of such players to fight back against t3 gangs so, they get to just not play for a week or two. Some of you folk can't imagine what its like to play without a half dozen alts minimum. Yeah, a collection of new players forming a Corp in highsec is not a great idea, but not because of the risk of loss. Simply because they are unlikely to know how to manage the wardec so they can still have fun. Being new doesn't mean you are just cannon fodder. It's relatively easy for a new player, even during a war, to continue to have fun playing the game, even in highsec. I don't know what playing with a half dozen alts would be like personally.
There is no way to manage grief dec at all, not to mention having fun.
Being new player is being cannon fodder in eve. It's a long way till minimum SP requirement to entry-level pvp.
Somebody in your corp does play with a half dozen alts to make it "manageable", so you can ask him, and thank him for leeching off his efforts.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12141
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 12:43:48 -
[339] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
You are in a free ship and risk nothing.
Uh, what? Hate to break it to you, but I paid for the Sacrileges that I fly during wars, and while they're notoriously cost effective, they're not exactly easy on the wallet if I lose them repeatedly. (yet to have that happen, fortunately, but then I've been absent the past month thanks to computer and pregnant wife issues)
Quote:
Gankers never have any risk, even loot fairy they complain about every time is averaging in the long run.
Except for how, since most of us are free targets to literally anyone in the game, we have more risk than any other profession.
It does not reflect on the mechanical level of risk that we accept that other people don't have the balls to do anything about it. I swear, with people like you playing the game, we could fly around in totally tankless ships and not have to worry about it. Oh wait, we do, because you thumbless cowards never bother shooting back.
There is no other profession in the entire game that suffers under as many mechanical consequences for their actions as suicide gankers.
Quote:
And yes, targets of grief dec are carefully selected to have no ability to shoot back.
There is no such thing a "grief dec", wardecs are not griefing by definition. Also, you'd be surprised at just how often it's rather the opposite of your claim.
Quote: even though they can do nothing to you while you use invulnerability exploit.
Oh yes, I forgot that you think docking itself is an exploit. Do you honestly think that anyone takes you seriously when you're rambling that kind of nonsense?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 13:18:32 -
[340] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
It's because eve is a sandbox............
Its not about wars, risk reward ratio, or anything apart from the individual, their gaming experiences before eve, the hype behind them wanting to try eve and what they experience at the hands of others in game.
Many ppl can't handle teh sandbox its that simple
edit:
P.S. yeah i still a NOOB NPC
already dead, just haven-¦t fallen over yet....
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Prince Kobol
2472
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 13:40:27 -
[341] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It does not reflect on the mechanical level of risk that we accept that other people don't have the balls to do anything about it. I swear, with people like you playing the game, we could fly around in totally tankless ships and not have to worry about it. Oh wait, we do, because you thumbless cowards never bother shooting back.
I just want to discuss this one point about people being cowards and not fighting back.
Here is the thing.... why should they?
People constantly bang on about Eve being a sandbox but the moment somebody choses not to their game they result to insults.
Also all a person needs to do is spend a couple of minutes looking at a characters kill board to realise that they will be no match for them and will also assume that they will have neutral alts tracking there movements because this is Eve and everybody has alts.
So why bother fighting when you are certain that you lose?
You call them cowards but I call it common sense. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34788
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 14:31:02 -
[342] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Somebody in your corp does play with a half dozen alts to make it "manageable", so you can ask him, and thank him for leeching off his efforts.
Who would that be Basil?
There isn't a single person in our Corp or Alliance that has that many alts. You are just imagining things to justify your own position.
No one leeches off anyone in our Alliance. We all help each other and we continue to have fun through wardecs, maybe because we aren't bitter and negative about everything.
Maybe you aren't able to manage wardecs, but that doesn't make them unmanageable for everyone. It's really not that difficult at all.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23935
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 14:42:41 -
[343] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:I just want to discuss this one point about people being cowards and not fighting back.
Here is the thing.... why should they?
People constantly bang on about Eve being a sandbox but the moment somebody choses not to their game they result to insults.
Also all a person needs to do is spend a couple of minutes looking at a characters kill board to realise that they will be no match for them and will also assume that they will have neutral alts tracking there movements because this is Eve and everybody has alts.
So why bother fighting when you are certain that you lose?
You call them cowards but I call it common sense.
If you won't defend what is yours, you also relinquish the right to complain. I say "won't" because EVE is a sandbox and not defending yourself is a choice.
As you know, farming kills in the sandbox is possible. Screaming to be left alone on the other hand doesn't work quite as well. Being victimized and farmed for kills is the sandbox working as intended. The question is, what would these so called victims do in the sandbox to change that?
Sleep all day. Party all night. Never grow old. Never die. -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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Prince Kobol
2475
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 15:28:08 -
[344] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:I just want to discuss this one point about people being cowards and not fighting back.
Here is the thing.... why should they?
People constantly bang on about Eve being a sandbox but the moment somebody choses not to their game they result to insults.
Also all a person needs to do is spend a couple of minutes looking at a characters kill board to realise that they will be no match for them and will also assume that they will have neutral alts tracking there movements because this is Eve and everybody has alts.
So why bother fighting when you are certain that you lose?
You call them cowards but I call it common sense. If you won't defend what is yours, you also relinquish the right to complain. I say "won't" because EVE is a sandbox and not defending yourself is a choice. As you know, farming kills in the sandbox is possible. Screaming to be left alone on the other hand doesn't work quite as well. Being victimized and farmed for kills is the sandbox working as intended. The question is, what would these so called victims do in the sandbox to change that?
Utter rubbish, of course you can complain. In most war decs the defenders stand no chance. They are going up against people who hold all the cards. They have the advantage in every respect and it is almost impossible for the defenders to win.
In most war decs the choice is to station spin or not login to deny kills or get slaughtered.... Some choice.
I know of no other game where it is as easy to farm kills as it is in Eve with so little risk.
You can drone on about the sandbox as much as you like but ultimately it is the sandbox which is slowly killing this game.
I for one would be happy to sacrifice some small element of the sandbox if it means getting more new players into Eve and getting them to stay. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
135
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 16:11:01 -
[345] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Uh, what? Hate to break it to you, but I paid for the Sacrileges that I fly during wars, and while they're notoriously cost effective, they're not exactly easy on the wallet if I lose them repeatedly. (yet to have that happen, fortunately, but then I've been absent the past month thanks to computer and pregnant wife issues)
And of course you know I were talking about gankers, because I used the word "gankers" there so you won't try to dodge the question as your lame position would suggest.
Then you dodged it anyway, because you know I'm right, and brought a sidestory tear-jerker with you to try leading the question even further away.
You are getting more and more pathetic.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Except for how, since most of us are free targets to literally anyone in the game, we have more risk than any other profession.
It does not reflect on the mechanical level of risk that we accept that other people don't have the balls to do anything about it. I swear, with people like you playing the game, we could fly around in totally tankless ships and not have to worry about it. Oh wait, we do, because you thumbless cowards never bother shooting back.
There is no other profession in the entire game that suffers under as many mechanical consequences for their actions as suicide gankers.
Being free target in a free ship is no risk at all, you just wake up in the station and pick up the next free ship, maybe pass a few gates, and back to whatever you are doing. There are no consequences to this anymore, thus you risk nothing. And when you risk nothing, you dare to say you have any risk? More risk than anyone else? Nonsense. But then again, you are at your usual nonsense levels.
You only do PvF (player vs freighter) gameplay, and freighters do not have cannons. Since you're too risk-averse to shoot anything with a single cannon being less than 30v1 on it, you really shouldn't talk.
But you'll talk anyway, with that level of self-entitlement you may even start talking that in free wanking land which is hisec now, wanking is hard.
Quote:There is no such thing a "grief dec", wardecs are not griefing by definition. Also, you'd be surprised at just how often it's rather the opposite of your claim.
War dec done for griefing purposes is grief dec. It is griefing by definition, it is not prosecuted only because it is not listed in the harassment policy, which does not bend its definition of being griefing by a single inch.
Aside from the obvious fact that doing grief decs is the ultimate form of informing the world that you lack any form of balls.
Quote:Oh yes, I forgot that you think docking itself is an exploit. Do you honestly think that anyone takes you seriously when you're rambling that kind of nonsense?
You grief dec people and don't fight when they turn up, because you're a *****, and you refuse to call that an exploit, because without it even my dog will roll you all over new eden. I honestly don't care how you call it. I call it an exploit because it offers unfair advantage for a group, who asked for a fight, and then chickened out. We can call it "substitute for balls", "substitute for skill", "**** move", "chicken coop tactics" because honestly, it is all of the above, and also exploit. It's not in a name, but in a shame where it matters. Because you seem to have none.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4062
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 17:28:25 -
[346] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post.
The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 18:19:26 -
[347] - Quote
As far as I can tell, there are two anti-NPC corp arguments here:
1) NPC corp players are not social, do not interact with other players, and leave the game eventually because they get bored.
2) NPC corp players make too much ISK when they are veterans in highsec, since they cannot be wardeced and therefore face little risk while Incursioning or hauling or mining.
#1 is completely untrue. I definitely know there's a lot of social activity within CAS, and it sounds like FNA and SAK has some too.
#2 seems to be mainly an issue with highsec Incursions. If this is considered to be an unbalanced risk/reward situation, it's best to address it directly by some sort of modification to highsec Incursions directly, rather than indirectly by modifying NPC corps which have applications way beyond highsec activities. Regarding hauling, I think we see enough multi-billion ISK gank killmails to show it's not risk-free, or even low-risk. Mining isn't something I know a whole lot about, but it doesn't seem to produce much ISK, and is still subject to ganking. (To anybody advocation point #2 - I'd be interesting in hearing your more detailed thoughts on why npc-corp + veteran + highesc = too much ISK for too little risk.)
In conclusion, IMO there are still no good reasons to change NPC corps.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34791
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 19:37:56 -
[348] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:As far as I can tell, there are two anti-NPC corp arguments here:
1) NPC corp players are not social, do not interact with other players, and leave the game eventually because they get bored.
#1 is completely untrue. I definitely know there's a lot of social activity within CAS, and it sounds like FNA and SAK has some too.
In conclusion, IMO there are still no good reasons to change NPC corps.
Did you even read the OP?
It's not about 'do not interact with other players', it's about CCPs own data showing that the retention of players who remain in NPC Corps is lower than players that join player run Corps; and a discussion around why players remain in NPC Corps.
So it can't be completely untrue since it's CCP that has drawn the conclusion and clearly the very good reason for players to move is to increase new player retention.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 19:55:56 -
[349] - Quote
Getting rid of NPC corps is not going to help CCP retain players. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Warp to Cyno.
4316
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 20:40:33 -
[350] - Quote
i don't remember the part where scipio mentioned getting rid of npc corps |
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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
88
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 23:18:19 -
[351] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Being victimized and farmed for kills is the sandbox working as intended.
A well thought out and subjective analysis total supported by faster Concord Response times, increased wardec fees, removal of Boomerang and Brick Tank Procurer.
Maybe someone from CCP can interject a better answer than me. |
Dalto Bane
V I R I I
Triumvirate.
153
|
Posted - 2015.03.15 23:38:51 -
[352] - Quote
A year ago, I would have said," NPC Corps are what is wrong with this game...(along with mentioning war dodgers, etc, etc).
Today, I feel differently. As if I been bathed in an ocean of serenity. I honestly don't feel anything for pilots who remain a part of NPC Corps, hate, or otherwise.
I also don't value their opinions concerning Eve Online either..
Dalto Bane for CSM10- Getting an early start. -á-My posts are my platform
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1424
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 00:01:04 -
[353] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Eli Stan wrote:As far as I can tell, there are two anti-NPC corp arguments here:
1) NPC corp players are not social, do not interact with other players, and leave the game eventually because they get bored.
#1 is completely untrue. I definitely know there's a lot of social activity within CAS, and it sounds like FNA and SAK has some too.
In conclusion, IMO there are still no good reasons to change NPC corps. Did you even read the OP? It's not about 'do not interact with other players', it's about CCPs own data showing that the retention of players who remain in NPC Corps is lower than players that join player run Corps; and a discussion around why players remain in NPC Corps. So it can't be completely untrue since it's CCP that has drawn the conclusion and clearly the very good reason for players to move is to increase new player retention.
Except in typical CCP fashion the logic is all wrong.
Players who are unsuited to EVE and will never really enjoy it tend to hang around an NPC corp till they finally quit.
Forcing them to move to a Player Corp will not miraculously transform them into EVE fans - you will be just be lumbering Player corps with a batch of uncommitted whiny players who will eventually quit anyway becasue the game does not actually suit them.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12142
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 00:17:07 -
[354] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Players who are unsuited to EVE and will never really enjoy it tend to hang around an NPC corp till they finally quit.
Forcing them to move to a Player Corp will not miraculously transform them into EVE fans - you will be just be lumbering Player corps with a batch of uncommitted whiny players who will eventually quit anyway becasue the game does not actually suit them.
If they'll quit eventually anyway, then who cares? CCP needs to be targeting the type of person who is interested in EVE, to get them engaged in the game quickly, instead of boring them to death too.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34801
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 00:31:54 -
[355] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Forcing them to move to a Player Corp will not miraculously transform them into EVE fans - you will be just be lumbering Player corps with a batch of uncommitted whiny players who will eventually quit anyway becasue the game does not actually suit them.
Forcing isn't the word I would use. That doesn't seem like a very engaging way to treat people.
Giving people who are interested in the game, reasons to move outside NPC Corps to player corps isn't a bad thing in my view. Understanding why they stay in NPC Corps is a good place to start if that is what CCP hope to achieve.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23940
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 00:37:41 -
[356] - Quote
Ferni Ka'Nviiou wrote:Risk/Reward ratio in NPC corps is skewed, is it?
Well, how terrible.
It must be really risky for folks who Station Trade in Jita.
It's almost like.... You're talking with your heads in your asses.
You should try your hand at Station Trading and let us know how risk-free the activity is. Station Trading and corps have no relation, since the corporation you're in has no impact. Wardecs and NPC corps, however, are related and this is the crux of the discussion here.
I believe wardec immunity comes cheap at 11% tax. It's not enough. Wardec immunity is a foregone conclusion for most hisec PVE activities. Anything that is a foregone conclusion in a game full of options is unbalanced, by definition. I'm not as quick to blame wardecs over NPC corps as Mr. Epeen is. Both are related to each other, and there is some rethinking that needs to occur there.
Many people will argue against the changes, of course, because they are nice and cozy (not a good basis for an argument, in my opinion).
Sleep all day. Party all night. Never grow old. Never die. -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23940
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 00:43:40 -
[357] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Being victimized and farmed for kills is the sandbox working as intended. A well thought out and subjective analysis total supported by faster Concord Response times, increased wardec fees, removal of Boomerang and Brick Tank Procurer. Maybe someone from CCP can interject a better answer than me.
CONCORD is the #1 farmer of kills and tears in hisec.
Edit: Dat killboard efficiency. 99.5% for ISK, 99.9% all else.
Sleep all day. Party all night. Never grow old. Never die. -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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ashley Eoner
458
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 01:54:43 -
[358] - Quote
Ganking is an entirely risk free endeavor when done properly. As a ganker you know what your target has in capability and you always know if you're vulnerable or not as you're either docked or undocked in the act of attempting a gank. There's absolutely no real risk in ganking right now other then a minor cost in ships which you can easily factor in beforehand.
If you care about the sec status simply turning in some tags or hitting a NPC every half hour works..
Boomeranging is a bannable offense. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12142
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 01:58:55 -
[359] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Ganking is an entirely risk free endeavor when done properly.
So is almost everything else in the game.
If you play the game correctly, you will almost never die in highsec. (barring someone really dedicated going after you with smartbombs on a gate, or some such)
So yeah, condemn just gankers for playing the game well, hypocrite.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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ashley Eoner
458
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 02:11:34 -
[360] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:Ganking is an entirely risk free endeavor when done properly.
So is almost everything else in the game. If you play the game correctly, you will almost never die in highsec. (barring someone really dedicated going after you with smartbombs on a gate, or some such) So yeah, condemn just gankers for playing the game well, hypocrite. There's at least a thousand things that could cause a loss in eve that is out of your control..
I'm no hypocrite I have gank alts myself. I just wanted to counter some of the crap you said earlier.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12144
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 02:37:22 -
[361] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:There's at least a thousand things that could cause a loss in eve that is out of your control..
Unless said person is a ganker, in which case they're just magically immune according to you, right?
Trip over yourself more.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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KIller Wabbit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
913
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 02:53:17 -
[362] - Quote
Shin Jan wrote:
5. I don't want to hear your ugly voice through TS
One guy in the alliance could *not* shut up. If not under fleet comms, he would jabber aimlessly for hours on end. After weeks of this, it literally destroyed any sense of community that I had. I'll never sit on a VOIP server again just because *we have to be ready*. F U.
As many others have said - I play for downtime, not to be part of yet another high pressure, demanding organization. Internet spaceships may be serious business, but get a clue it's NOT supposed to be that way.
---
Signature held hostage
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1949
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 03:11:49 -
[363] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
I believe wardec immunity comes cheap at 11% tax. It's not enough. Wardec immunity is a foregone conclusion for most hisec PVE activities. Anything that is a foregone conclusion in a game full of options is unbalanced, by definition. I'm not as quick to blame wardecs over NPC corps as Mr. Epeen is. Both are related to each other, and there is some rethinking that needs to occur there.
Many people will argue against the changes, of course, because they are nice and cozy (not a good basis for an argument, in my opinion).
Look at Wardec corps behaviour.
If someone fights back and they get any kills at all, even cheap T1 cruiser & frigate kills, they will extend the wardec even longer.
This sort of PLAYER behaviour is what creates Wardec evasion. At best just staying docked is the right answer 99% of the time.
Because any form of interaction with someone wardeccing you simply opens you up to more wardecs.
As long as players behave that way, people won't be interested in taking part in Wardecs.
Also as long as there is no real benefit to a high sec corp people won't join high sec corps.
And if you push the NPC tax higher, people will just make more 1 man corps, which they will then recycle when wardecced.
If you push the NPC tax higher AND remove the ability to evade wardecs, people will just quit rather than be griefed like the current cycle creates.
So there is no simple bandaid fix or jesus solution. High sec needs to build over time more engaging corp play which doesn't simply get crushed by the null groups like POCO installation did initially. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12144
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:06:11 -
[364] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Also as long as there is no real benefit to a high sec corp people won't join high sec corps.
And if you push the NPC tax higher, people will just make more 1 man corps, which they will then recycle when wardecced.
If you push the NPC tax higher AND remove the ability to evade wardecs, people will just quit rather than be griefed like the current cycle creates.
You've literally talked yourself into a corner.
People won't join player corps because highsec corps aren't worth it compared to NPC corps.
But.
If they nerf NPC corps to make player corps more attractive, you claim that will make people quit.
What intellectually dishonest rationale. You're trying to paint a picture whereby only nerfing wardecs, already one of the weakest mechanics in the game, is the only way forward, and that's just patently untrue.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7955
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:26:21 -
[365] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
What intellectually dishonest rationale. You're trying to paint a picture whereby only nerfing wardecs, already one of the weakest mechanics in the game, is the only way forward, and that's just patently untrue.
Really, Kaarous? You're actually going to go there?
All you do is cry because CCP won't nerf everything except awoxing and ganking. As it is you have risk free 'fun' shooting fish in a barrel. But that's not good enough for you. You actually seem to want God mode for your chosen play style. It was great fun back when you were 12 playing a single player game, but those days should be long past.
If you are afraid to work for your kills, then you are playing the wrong game. If you are afraid of consequences for your actions, then you are playing the wrong game.
It's time to wipe the tears of your face and start playing the game that's in front of you. Not having a tantrum because it's not the game you decided it should be.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Valkin Mordirc
775
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:30:32 -
[366] - Quote
Quote:
Look at Wardec corps behaviour.
If someone fights back and they get any kills at all, even cheap T1 cruiser & frigate kills, they will extend the wardec even longer.
This sort of PLAYER behavior is what creates Wardec evasion. At best just staying docked is the right answer 99% of the time.
Because any form of interaction with someone wardeccing you simply opens you up to more wardecs.
That wouldn't be Wardeccing corp, that does this. A Wardec corp wardecs for Hisec fun. They don't take Contracts with other players. So letting the dec drop after losing a fight is beneficial.
However a Mercenary corp, will extend the dec, but the War Report, is a publicly displayed tool for customers to view how effective the Mercenary is. So by extending the wardec until they have 'won' is Damage Control.
Also the Mercenary that is extending the dec may be contracted for certain time frame. So there's a lot more happening behind the curtain then what you are implying. Generally, the reason why decs are long, is because, there are paid for a certain amount of time. Like Two months.
Quote:As long as players behave that way, people won't be interested in taking part in Wardecs.
Like I said before, Extended decs are paid by a contractor. So blame the Corps paying the Mercenary. That and it could be that the corp is providing 'gud fites' and the dec is extended because people are having fun.
Quote:Also as long as there is no real benefit to a high sec corp people won't join high sec corps.
And if you push the NPC tax higher, people will just make more 1 man corps, which they will then recycle when wardecced.
If you push the NPC tax higher AND remove the ability to evade wardecs, people will just quit rather than be griefed like the current cycle creates.
NPC don't need to more nerfs, your right. High-sec Corps need more buffs. However Wardeccing is not the actually cause for people quiting. I've been in the Mercenary trade for two years. When people quit it's not the Wardeccer that is the main reason. It's because a High-sec corp, does not provide long term goals, nor does it provide real content. The only real content driven Highsec corps are Mercenary Corps. You don't generate content running lvl 4 missions. You don't generate content running a mining corp. You can have content with a Industrialist corp but for a Highsec only Indy corp. It's rather hard so I'm told.
Quote:So there is no simple bandaid fix or jesus solution. High sec needs to build over time more engaging corp play which doesn't simply get crushed by the null groups like POCO installation did initially.
I can agree that High-sec needs a change, I can agree that Wardecs need fixxed. However it's not as simple as Fix Wardecs, people are now staying longer. High-sec isn't meant to be safe. People stay in NPC corps because it is safer then a player corp. If you develop away to keep the dangers of high-sec the same, while give player corps in high-sec REAL benifits, and real control. Then things may change. But it's not a Fix Wardecs=Better Highsec,
Like I said, I'm all for a change in Wardecs. However I am not for making High-sec a safer brighter place. EVE was built on the idea of "I can do anything, Even the bad things" Not "I can do anything as long as the sec status says so"
_______________________________________
Quote:All you do is cry because CCP won't nerf everything except awoxing and ganking. As it is you have risk free 'fun' shooting fish in a barrel. But that's not good enough for you. You actually seem to want God mode for your chosen play style. It was great fun back when you were 12 playing a single player game, but those days should be long past.
If you are afraid to work for your kills, then you are playing the wrong game. If you are afraid of consequences for your actions, then you are playing the wrong game.
With regards, What work is there in avoid Wardecs and mechanic in the game, by Rolling Corp or staying in a NPC corp?
#DeleteTheWeak
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1950
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:47:07 -
[367] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You've literally talked yourself into a corner.
People won't join player corps because highsec corps aren't worth it compared to NPC corps.
But.
If they nerf NPC corps to make player corps more attractive, you claim that will make people quit.
What intellectually dishonest rationale. You're trying to paint a picture whereby only nerfing wardecs, already one of the weakest mechanics in the game, is the only way forward, and that's just patently untrue.
No I haven't talked myself into a corner.
You are just so fixated on Nerfing NPC corps as a solution that you can't visualise anything else.
Wardecs are actually an exceptionally strong mechanic against a high sec corp that has a reason to exist. (though the cost mechanic should be related to deccing corp size, not target corp size, as the current cost mechanic allows large alliances to bully small ones in high sec while their highsec assets require massive isk expenditure to attack in turn)
So the solution is to create NEW gameplay which gives corps reason to exist. Not nerf existing things.
And do so in such a way that the goons can't just flood it.
Do I have an easy solution for this? Not at all, it's going to take some very careful game design to give highsec corps good reasons to stay together without making it worth/efficient for the null blocks just moving in and steamrolling them. |
Reislier
80
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:48:32 -
[368] - Quote
I remember this same discussion maybe 9 years ago...
good example of hitting dead farm animal.
"Why do people stay in npc corp?"
It doesn't matter. Pay them to play then you can say how.
There is only one corporation that matter here. It is in Iceland..
Personal opinion of nature of Eve and how should be is meaningless. There is no risk, no safety, no danger, no morality.. it is a game.. you are not brave. it is as dangerous as playing with toy truck with recurring monthly subscription.
Subscription and player statistics dictate direction of Eve, not some dark game mythology. The state of Eve today.. npc corp, player corp numbers, professions, in-game population demographics and locations.. all of this reflects direction people want and will pay for.. that really does say more than miniscule percentage of player in forums.
If people did not want what they have they would not be here.
I do not pay for things I do not want.
Business is business.
Be nice. If nice not work, be civil. If civil not work, beat with iron pipe till bloody and still.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:48:46 -
[369] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Eli Stan wrote:As far as I can tell, there are two anti-NPC corp arguments here:
1) NPC corp players are not social, do not interact with other players, and leave the game eventually because they get bored.
#1 is completely untrue. I definitely know there's a lot of social activity within CAS, and it sounds like FNA and SAK has some too.
In conclusion, IMO there are still no good reasons to change NPC corps. Did you even read the OP? It's not about 'do not interact with other players', it's about CCPs own data showing that the retention of players who remain in NPC Corps is lower than players that join player run Corps; and a discussion around why players remain in NPC Corps. So it can't be completely untrue since it's CCP that has drawn the conclusion and clearly the very good reason for players to move is to increase new player retention.
I bet that NPC corp players who are social do not quit EVE with any greater frequency than player-corp players who are social. Force the quitters into player corps somehow, and they'll still quit. Give them an incentive to move into a player corp, and they'll still quit. |
Valkin Mordirc
777
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 04:58:30 -
[370] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Eli Stan wrote:As far as I can tell, there are two anti-NPC corp arguments here:
1) NPC corp players are not social, do not interact with other players, and leave the game eventually because they get bored.
#1 is completely untrue. I definitely know there's a lot of social activity within CAS, and it sounds like FNA and SAK has some too.
In conclusion, IMO there are still no good reasons to change NPC corps. Did you even read the OP? It's not about 'do not interact with other players', it's about CCPs own data showing that the retention of players who remain in NPC Corps is lower than players that join player run Corps; and a discussion around why players remain in NPC Corps. So it can't be completely untrue since it's CCP that has drawn the conclusion and clearly the very good reason for players to move is to increase new player retention. I bet that NPC corp players who are social do not quit EVE with any greater frequency than player-corp players who are social. Force the quitters into player corps somehow, and they'll still quit. Give them an incentive to move into a player corp, and they'll still quit.
What you bet doesn't matter. You probably right.
However, How many players are in an NPC corp Vs How many player are actually social in NPC corps?
And we don't mean Social as in talking to each other, thats a basic human need. We are talking about players going out and doing something.
For the 500 700 people in an NPC corp chat, how many of them are working together? Very little. They talk when they run Lvl4 missions, but they don't run mission together, they don't blitz lvl 5's.
THAT is why NPC corp player retention is so low. And is why NPC V Player Corp, NEED's to be fixed.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Eldhih
Estel Arador Corp Services
Estel Arador Capsuleer Services
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 05:11:44 -
[371] - Quote
Prior to DNS, my experience of player corporations is negative. Went from so called pvp corp to pvp cvorp, that ended up soling faction war or hisec mining for x weeks. The problem from my point of view is accountability. Players need the ability to comment on a corp they leave to warn future would be recruits. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 05:22:20 -
[372] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Who's to do the teaching if all the bittervets are busy farming them for stats?
Oh puh-leez. Of all of the mid-high skillpoint players in highsec right now, I very much doubt than even 10% of them are in wardec corps. It's probably lower than that. Quote:
I think some sort of tweak to the wardec system that disincentivizes deccing corps low in SP and assets would solve the problem.
And I think that CCP themselves have stated that non consensual PvP has no ramifications on player retention. And that taking player freedom away to serve the purely theoretical purpose of "helping newbies" is disingenuous at best. Quote:
It would be nice if the bittervets would make a conscious decision to challenge themselves instead of going after the easy targets, but risk-aversion is just as ingrained in their playstyle as it is in that of the "carebears."
And here you are mischaracterizing the motives of people you don't like. If you hadn't yet figured this out, far more people do the former, than the latter. Ever heard of Eve University? RvB?
Your first point is unprovable speculation. I'd bet that if you looked into it most of the oldest, highest SP players in highsec have at least one toon in a wardec corp.
Nobody on this forum actually cares what CCP thinks except when it lines up with their desired playstyle, so may aswell stop tossing that around. Ultimately they're in it for the money which is why we see this persistently nonsensical situation where a sizeable percentage of the server population at any given time is alts. Now those would be some interesting numbers to have access to.
RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.
And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.
That you have a bunch of 100m SP toons sitting in highsec engaging in regular massacre of mining barges and mission boats is laughable. I don't see how I've misrepresented anyone - the highsec griefer community looks to me like players who don't want to have to work or take risks to get kills.
Why don't you want good fights Kaarous? This is the only game I've ever seen, all whining about how "hard and dark" it is aside, where veterans are able to just stomp newbies day in and day out with minimal effort.
Nobody with a brain is impressed by your 90% efficient killboard that shows nothing but blobbing and tech 1 fit mission ships.
I should join a merc corp. It's like faction warfare where the enemy only flies terribly fit PvE ships.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 05:28:37 -
[373] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You've literally talked yourself into a corner.
People won't join player corps because highsec corps aren't worth it compared to NPC corps.
But.
If they nerf NPC corps to make player corps more attractive, you claim that will make people quit.
What intellectually dishonest rationale. You're trying to paint a picture whereby only nerfing wardecs, already one of the weakest mechanics in the game, is the only way forward, and that's just patently untrue.
No I haven't talked myself into a corner. You are just so fixated on Nerfing NPC corps as a solution that you can't visualise anything else. Wardecs are actually an exceptionally strong mechanic against a high sec corp that has a reason to exist. (though the cost mechanic should be related to deccing corp size, not target corp size, as the current cost mechanic allows large alliances to bully small ones in high sec while their highsec assets require massive isk expenditure to attack in turn) So the solution is to create NEW gameplay which gives corps reason to exist. Not nerf existing things. And do so in such a way that the goons can't just flood it. Do I have an easy solution for this? Not at all, it's going to take some very careful game design to give highsec corps good reasons to stay together without making it worth/efficient for the null blocks just moving in and steamrolling them.
You hit on the root of the problem. Anything worth fighting for the blob will just park ontop of.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12144
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 05:50:00 -
[374] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Your first point is unprovable speculation.
... which I said specifically in response to your "all the bittervets are just farming noobs", which was an obvious lie. Don't make **** up, and then claim that anyone correcting your obvious lie is in the wrong.
Quote:
RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.
So the **** what? They have tons of fun doing that, why are you spitting at it? That's how newbies can be effective, or would you rather they just mine for the first year of playing the game?
Quote:
And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.
Oh, bullshit.
The new player help channel exists, and just about anyone you ask about it will point you towards one of those groups.
Quote:
Why don't you want good fights Kaarous?
Why should your definition of "good fight" be permitted to tie my hands? Or anyone else's? Why are you an emotional fascist, trying to force how you want to play the game on other people?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 05:53:52 -
[375] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
15M SP is nine months with +3 implants and a decent remap. Not exactly new. Just because a veteran carebear can die to a relatively new ninja salvager in an incursus proves nothing.
When it comes down to it, there's simply not much you can do to fight an entity that can blob you with vindis on station or undock a roaming fleet of proteus and guardians, all with near perfect skills, when you are limited to tech 1 cruisers. Undock 30 gank catalysts and a brick tanked t3 with logi support will still laugh at you. SP opens options as you said, like being able to fly ships that are simply better at dealing with a given situation. Being able to undock BS BC and tech 2/3 cruisers from every race, faction BS/BC, or fully skilled t2 logi with near perfect skills for fitting, support, weapons and drones is an undeniably huge advantage and most hisec mercs I've seen fit this description.
To say SP doesn't matter is moronic. In a pvp contest, all other things being equal, higher SP in relevant skills will win. Having yoir ship be 5-10% better in even a few categories is a huge advantage. Having more options in ships and fits to employ is a huge advantage. I don't see why this isn't obvious.
SP was a random number, Regardless. Let me put this way. Your out in your aweome 70+ Mill Toon. Your in Dodi. And you're flexxing your muscles with a Kronos. I'ts PVE fit but. Hey you can still tank a **** ton in Bastion. Then you find some on yellow floating around station. He's only been playing for a year. And he's in a Harbinger/prophcey. So you shoot at him thinking you have an easy kill. https://zkillboard.com/kill/45013722/
That you lose it. To a character who starting playing at the start of 2014. That what I mean by SP doesn't matter. SP opens doors for more options to counter with yeah. It's a big advantage. But it's nobody brings along Every ship wherever they go you know? I have an alt out in lowsec that is 85mil SP. This character stays in Highsec and has 25mil sp. If My Alt and this Character went head to head. Both in Cruiser. Do you think the 85mil SP Alt would win? If you say yes, I would kindly say you are wrong and possible right. Valkin is spec into cruisers. Can fly every single one near perfect. So can the alt. So even though the alt is from 2011. And this one is from 2013. You don't really know who will win. 1v1. Does that make more sense now?
100M SP wins. Just look at the other toon's KB, 25m isn't enough to skill into every racial t2/t3 cruiser and every weapon system to a competent degree, you should easily be able to work out a counter to his likely fit. Whereas the 100M toon can bring any race t3/t2 or faction to the fight with full skills in every related area. 100M has a huge advantage because he has a full range of options and is thus totally inpredictable in what he can undock.
I have 23M sp, if someone looks at my killboard they know I'm bringing a gallente cruiser or BS. That's critical knowledge and there's fuckall I can do about it.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 05:57:00 -
[376] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Eli Stan wrote:I bet that NPC corp players who are social do not quit EVE with any greater frequency than player-corp players who are social. Force the quitters into player corps somehow, and they'll still quit. Give them an incentive to move into a player corp, and they'll still quit. What you bet doesn't matter. You probably right. However, How many players are in an NPC corp Vs How many player are actually social in NPC corps? And we don't mean Social as in talking to each other, thats a basic human need. We are talking about players going out and doing something. For the 500 700 people in an NPC corp chat, how many of them are working together? Very little. They talk when they run Lvl4 missions, but they don't run mission together, they don't blitz lvl 5's. THAT is why NPC corp player retention is so low. And is why NPC V Player Corp, NEED's to be fixed.
If these NPC players chat with but do not perform activities with other players of the same corp, it is because that's how they have chosen to play the game, not because they are unable to. Force or incent them into moving into player corps, and they still will chat with but will not perform activities with other players of the same corp - and in your theory will be just as likely to quit the game as if they were still in an NPC corp. CAS members, I know, get together to actually do stuff all the time. |
Valkin Mordirc
778
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 05:59:04 -
[377] - Quote
Quote:RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.
Neither RvB or EVE-Uni are 'White Knights'
EVE-Uni uses its new bros as F1 monkeys.
RvB uses it's members as a standing army so it can have a force to keep poco's.
If anything they are a neutral party providing a service with the expections that it's members pay them back in certain ways, IE RvB Purple fleets for Poco bashing.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 06:00:16 -
[378] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Your first point is unprovable speculation.
... which I said specifically in response to your "all the bittervets are just farming noobs", which was an obvious lie. Don't make **** up, and then claim that anyone correcting your obvious lie is in the wrong. Quote:
RvB and Eve uni are great but they're not enough, it's mostly a few white knights herding hordes of newbies about and hoping to win by sheer number of tech 1 hulls.
So the **** what? They have tons of fun doing that, why are you spitting at it? That's how newbies can be effective, or would you rather they just mine for the first year of playing the game? Quote:
And they are resources that have to be actively sought out by new players - many of the players who get slaughtered by wardecs in highsec are the type that don't want to treat a game like a second job and frankly don't understand what's happening to them.
Oh, bullshit. The new player help channel exists, and just about anyone you ask about it will point you towards one of those groups. Quote:
Why don't you want good fights Kaarous?
Why should your definition of "good fight" be permitted to tie my hands? Or anyone else's? Why are you an emotional fascist, trying to force how you want to play the game on other people?
A good fight is one that involves an opponent who has the knowledge, experience and resources to be a challenge. Also known as "people highsec griefers don't shoot at if they can possibly avoid it."
How is shooting the clueless in badly fit t1 ships any different than shooting red crosses or rocks? I just don't understand why you think its such an important part of the game. |
Valkin Mordirc
778
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 06:12:27 -
[379] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Eli Stan wrote:I bet that NPC corp players who are social do not quit EVE with any greater frequency than player-corp players who are social. Force the quitters into player corps somehow, and they'll still quit. Give them an incentive to move into a player corp, and they'll still quit. What you bet doesn't matter. You probably right. However, How many players are in an NPC corp Vs How many player are actually social in NPC corps? And we don't mean Social as in talking to each other, thats a basic human need. We are talking about players going out and doing something. For the 500 700 people in an NPC corp chat, how many of them are working together? Very little. They talk when they run Lvl4 missions, but they don't run mission together, they don't blitz lvl 5's. THAT is why NPC corp player retention is so low. And is why NPC V Player Corp, NEED's to be fixed. If these NPC players chat with but do not perform activities with other players of the same corp, it is because that's how they have chosen to play the game, not because they are unable to. Force or incent them into moving into player corps, and they still will chat with but will not perform activities with other players of the same corp - and in your theory will be just as likely to quit the game as if they were still in an NPC corp. CAS members, I know, get together to actually do stuff all the time.
Out of all the NPC corps in game, you know a few that do stuff together. Not intending to be rude, but that's a **** argument. I can't remember the name it, a logical fallacy? Something like that. And I do mean I'm not meaning to be rude. =\ It's just that just because YOU know people that do stuff out of the 500 or so per NPC corp, doesn't mean they ALL do something.
"A+B doesn't = K"
Thats the type of logic your using.
"I know people who work together in NPC corps therefor there must be more people that do stuff in NPC corps. "
You see what I mean?
CCP has proven that NPC corps have the LOWEST retention rates. NPC corps ARE a problem. And they need to be fixed. The statistic have proven this. Arguing that it's not the problem is biased as again, there are literally statistics to prove, are at the least point to, NPC corps being a **** area of the game that the majority of people quit.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12144
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 06:21:29 -
[380] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
A good fight is one that involves an opponent who has the knowledge, experience and resources to be a challenge. Also known as "people highsec griefers don't shoot at if they can possibly avoid it."
And yet again with the deliberate falsehoods.
Quote:
How is shooting the clueless in badly fit t1 ships any different than shooting red crosses or rocks? I just don't understand why you think its such an important part of the game.
I don't understand why you hate player freedom. Or why you play EVE in the first place if you hate the sandbox so much.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Valkin Mordirc
778
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 06:23:54 -
[381] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:[quote=Valkin Mordirc]
100M SP wins. Just look at the other toon's KB, 25m isn't enough to skill into every racial t2/t3 cruiser and every weapon system to a competent degree, you should easily be able to work out a counter to his likely fit. Whereas the 100M toon can bring any race t3/t2 or faction to the fight with full skills in every related area. 100M has a huge advantage because he has a full range of options and is thus totally inpredictable in what he can undock.
I have 23M sp, if someone looks at my killboard they know I'm bringing a gallente cruiser or BS. That's critical knowledge and there's fuckall I can do about it.
No it doesn't.
There is a finite of SP that will go into Cruiser and fitting skills.
A 100mil SP Will not have EVERY ship at his disposal. I have over 15bil in Hard assets. But I have to go TO those assets to use them. If I'm roaming. I DO NOT have access to them. Why is that so hard to understand? NOT every fight happens on the undock. Not ever fight I'm in a ship I'm perfectly spec in.
Also I have 35mil, I don't pay attention to SP counter, because I know it's not relevant.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Desimus Maximus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
182
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 06:47:59 -
[382] - Quote
Here's another reason.. Most "leet" pirate or pvp corps have entry requirements that 95% of their own f*ing members wouldn't qualify under... Like a Jr. High Basketball team recruiting players and you have to be MJ level or they won't even reply to a submitted application.
For real. Try it. I have looked up many corps in the past and done this. you will actually laugh your ass off for a good hour or so looking it all up. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12146
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 07:16:20 -
[383] - Quote
Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it:
I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back.
What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at.
And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
310
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 08:14:09 -
[384] - Quote
Bottom line for me is that as long as I'm the one paying to play Eve (and am doing so within CCP's game mechanics, EULA and TOS--which are really the only rules that matter) then it's no one's damned business whether I do so in The Scope or Goonswarm. Period. I'm in an NPC corp because I choose to be. I have my reasons and I damned sure don't need to justify myself to a bunch of internet wannabe tough guys who I'll never meet in the real world and whose opinions don't matter.
I've been playing since 2007, the vast majority of that time spent in an NPC corp. It works for me and for a bunch of other people. You're pissed off because I'm an 8 year old player sitting in The Scope and not dealing with petty politics and the other annoyances of player run corps? Too bad. Suck it up and quit crying about it. Quit asking CCP to limit my choice because you feel entitled or somehow superior and that your way is the only correct way.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34807
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 08:33:21 -
[385] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:ICBM launch
Jeez mate.
I'd say take a chill pill and relax, but I wouldn't be so presumptive.
No one's trying to tell anyone here what to do. I think we probably all value our freedom of choice and the discussion isn't about limiting anyone's. It's just a general chat about reasons people stay in npc corps.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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ashley Eoner
459
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 09:18:23 -
[386] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:ashley Eoner wrote:There's at least a thousand things that could cause a loss in eve that is out of your control..
Unless said person is a ganker, in which case they're just magically immune according to you, right? Trip over yourself more.
You're failing to make anything resembling a point with that statement. Just because there's a thousand things that can cause a loss that is out of your control doesn't mean it's impossible for you to have a loss that is in your control. |
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4071
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 09:41:23 -
[387] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post.
The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
699
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 09:46:24 -
[388] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Bottom line for me is that as long as I'm the one paying to play Eve (and am doing so within CCP's game mechanics, EULA and TOS--which are really the only rules that matter) then it's no one's damned business whether I do so in The Scope or Goonswarm. Period. I'm in an NPC corp because I choose to be. I have my reasons and I damned sure don't need to justify myself to a bunch of internet wannabe tough guys who I'll never meet in the real world and whose opinions don't matter.
I've been playing since 2007, the vast majority of that time spent in an NPC corp. It works for me and for a bunch of other people. You're pissed off because I'm an 8 year old player sitting in The Scope and not dealing with petty politics and the other annoyances of player run corps? Too bad. Suck it up and quit crying about it. Quit asking CCP to limit my choice because you feel entitled or somehow superior and that your way is the only correct way.
There is no problem with players, even veterans like yourself, staying in an NPC corp. If you are new, have limited playtime, or just prefer to go it solo, the NPC should be there for you to do what you want. The problem for the game is when NPC corp, solo-style play is the optimal way to make ISK, and the one the tutorials push you towards. This pushes players away from higher risk, more social play and into solo grinding as the most efficient way to make a space living, or worse, keeps them from ever leaving highsec and/or joining a larger (and wardeccable) corp which CCP has identified as the things that keep players in the game.
Eve is a beautiful sandbox and players should be given maximal freedom to enjoy the game and make their own stories in New Eden. But changes are needed to restore the risk vs. reward balance to encourage people to take risks and organize in groups. Don't want to respond to that encouragement? Fine, do what you want, but the most efficient way to make ISK should not be solo grinding missions or doing incursions in highsec or why would any bother to join a corp or play with others in the first place?
Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
15
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 11:00:54 -
[389] - Quote
People keep bandying about that information that CCP gave us that people who never join player corps are more likely to quit. Did it ever occur to you that those people quit because they thought EVE was boring as hell? Or they didn't make enough money to Plex and couldn't afford the subscription, or real life issues came up that prevented them from playing?
That statistic by itself is meaningless. There are a million reasons why a person would quit an MMO. I am guessing the NPC corps themselves have zero to do with it. People just don't like NPC corps for various selfish reasons and keep throwing that little useless bit of information out as if it somehow strengthens their own agenda.
So the OP asked why players stay in NPC corps. When I first started playing over 6 years ago I had a lot going on in my life but kept seeing advertisements for EVE and thought it looked interesting. The idea of being in a corp did appeal to me until I actually looked into it and realized that all the ones that seemed active and decent seemed to run their corps like a second job. That did not appeal to me at all with the things I had going on in my life so I might have left the game. But luckily I had randomly chosen CAS when I created my first character and the people there seemed helpful and friendly. They actually do things together. They help out. They have mining groups, a null sec group that teaches noobies to pvp and helps them get jump clones and takes them on roams, a wormhole group, incursion group, a mission running group. Pretty much most of the things you can do in Eve are covered.
The great thing about it is I can come and go as I please. No requirements, no commitment. My RL is hectic so sometimes I want to log in and not be bothered. Sometimes I have to take a break because RL gets in the way but when I come back I am still in that same NPC corp and many of the same old veterans are still around years later. So it has become home for me while I am playing and when I resub after taking a break I am happy to see that most of the old timers are still around. |
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
1842
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 12:28:43 -
[390] - Quote
Desimus Maximus wrote:Here's another reason.. Most "leet" pirate or pvp corps have entry requirements that 95% of their own f*ing members wouldn't qualify under... Like a Jr. High Basketball team recruiting players and you have to be MJ level or they won't even reply to a submitted application.
For real. Try it. I have looked up many corps in the past and done this. you will actually laugh your ass off for a good hour or so looking it all up.
well, the whole point of the wall is to deter the people who dont REALLY want to join.
hell, first pvp group I joined was SYJ, and this was when i had barely learned cruiser 1, their MINIMUM spec was T3 all 5's at the time. they told me that i WAS to young to join right then, but get back to them when I had access to T3. Came back a few days later to ask them if a drake was okay to satrt instead of a T3, and they let me in. turns out they had ALOT of people who could only fly drakes, they still gave them an equal share (sometimes a half-share depending on if their was reimbursements for a pvp op being funded) of the sleeper loot.
honestly, the only barrier to entry to groups in EVE is attitude, you show that you MEAN it when you say you want to join, 90%+ of the ones worth joining will put up with you being a little "subpar" for a couple months, because warm bodies are warm bodies, and letting a noob grow up IN your corp, instills loyalty thats hard to build anyway else |
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Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
132
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 13:12:05 -
[391] - Quote
Most people who leave EVE in the first few weeks / months of their time, will be the type who don't like the game or don't have time. It's quitye logical to expect that most of these will be those who haven't progressed out of the NPC corps 'because' of these very reasons. That in itself does not mean there's anything wrong with NPC corps.
However, what it does mean, is that you (as a business) have a window of opportunity to win over people into the game when they're in NPC. And maybe NPC corps can be changed to better 'sell' to the game to new comers than they do now. The points are subtly different.
Personally I think most 'leaverr' people join EVE expecting WOW in space, or COD in spaceships, or something equally banal, and arrive, find that it is actually far more complex and engrossed than they realise and quit after a short attempt and trying to copy their normal gameplay and become bored. Because they've not really engaged with the game, they haven;'t left NPC, and consequently they're one of those statistical NPC Leavers. THis has nothing to do with NPC corps.
Perosnally, EVE is better off without them.
Player losses from non-rookie NPC corps is a different matter though. Many will drop from a player corp, and then quit the game. And thus they also add to the NPC leavers statistic.
There are so many genuine non-NPC related reasons for leaving EVE 'via' the NPC corps, that a significant correlation between the two is probably not likely to be achived.
Remeber, stats are spun according to the pararmeters that are chosen to be included and excluded.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23964
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 13:12:36 -
[392] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:But luckily I had randomly chosen CAS when I created my first character and the people there seemed helpful and friendly. They actually do things together. They help out. They have mining groups, a null sec group that teaches noobies to pvp and helps them get jump clones and takes them on roams, a wormhole group, incursion group, a mission running group. Pretty much most of the things you can do in Eve are covered.
CAS is in many respects like a PC corp. It is that way because a few people (like Boiglio) have put in an enormous amount of effort to create resources and activities.
You can't compare CAS to other NPC corps. There is no comparison whatsoever. CAS is exceptional in that regard, and other NPC corps are silent as the grave and functionally unsocial and inactive. This is the standard experience. It is no surprise that players hang out in these, wardec immune and safe and warm most certainly, but they play the game alone and are at the greatest statistical risk of quitting.
#afkleadership -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
132
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 13:15:29 -
[393] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Niobe Song wrote:But luckily I had randomly chosen CAS when I created my first character and the people there seemed helpful and friendly. They actually do things together. They help out. They have mining groups, a null sec group that teaches noobies to pvp and helps them get jump clones and takes them on roams, a wormhole group, incursion group, a mission running group. Pretty much most of the things you can do in Eve are covered.
CAS is in many respects like a PC corp. It is that way because a few people (like Boiglio) have put in an enormous amount of effort to create resources and activities. You can't compare CAS to other NPC corps. There is no comparison whatsoever. CAS is exceptional in that regard, and other NPC corps are silent as the grave and functionally unsocial and inactive. This is the standard experience. It is no surprise that players hang out in these, wardec immune and safe and warm most certainly, but they play the game alone and are at the greatest statistical risk of quitting.
Just following that logic. People like warm and cosy, so they stay in the corp. If you then force them into something that's not what they like (ie not warm and cosy) I would think they're at much greater risk of leaving - as suddenly they're not in something they like.
(Clearly there are exceptions, and a few will discover the riches of risk and rewrd, but that's probably a tiny minoiryt).
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23966
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 13:22:57 -
[394] - Quote
I think it's a balance. Pushing people into the deep end may cause them to panic and quit. Leaving them perpetually in the shallow end will also bore them and they will leave. NPC corps are without a doubt the boring shallow end.
People will argue from the point of exceptions (veterans hanging out in an NPC corp having oodles of fun), but the exceptions don't contribute much in a discussion about trends (data which CCP has shared with us).
#afkleadership -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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Diggle Dirker
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 13:24:20 -
[395] - Quote
I play EVE to relax. For me, relaxation means doing what I want with no obligations to others. I've been in player corps that say they're relaxed and let you do what you want, but then it soon becomes clear there's still a certain level of expectation that you'll fulfill various obligations. I don't want to be made to feel bad just because I choose what to do with my own time, and so I leave and go back to the NPC corp where nobody has any expectations of me. |
Prince Kobol
2478
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 15:08:04 -
[396] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it:
I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back.
What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at.
And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets.
You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play |
Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
316
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 15:24:52 -
[397] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Nick Bete wrote:ICBM launch
Jeez mate. I'd say take a chill pill and relax, but I wouldn't be so presumptive. No one's trying to tell anyone here what to do. I think we probably all value our freedom of choice and the discussion isn't about limiting anyone's. It's just a general chat about reasons people stay in npc corps.
You might want to tell that to certain other posters who've called those of us who choose to stay in NPC corps cowards, risk averse, immature, not hardcore enough, petty facists, etc.
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Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
16
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 15:35:41 -
[398] - Quote
Because wardecs.
These mechanics are revolutionizing the MMO scene, attracting many new players and keeping others active.
Many future MMOs will have it, they're the epitome of sandbox gaming.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
171
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 16:25:44 -
[399] - Quote
Nick Bete wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Nick Bete wrote:ICBM launch
Jeez mate. I'd say take a chill pill and relax, but I wouldn't be so presumptive. No one's trying to tell anyone here what to do. I think we probably all value our freedom of choice and the discussion isn't about limiting anyone's. It's just a general chat about reasons people stay in npc corps. You might want to tell that to certain other posters who've called those of us who choose to stay in NPC corps cowards, risk averse, immature, not hardcore enough, petty facists, etc.
This thread still exists?
Those NPC haters are mad because they are surrounded by blues in their big alliances, or they never left highsec and are addicted to shoot easy prey.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
133
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 16:33:13 -
[400] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it:
I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back.
What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at.
And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets. You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play
actually, he's not. He's telling them how he is going to play, and ... well, yeah, they might be impacted by it. But he's not telling them to do or not do anything specific about it.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
133
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 16:35:30 -
[401] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
I think it's a balance. Pushing people into the deep end may cause them to panic and quit. Leaving them perpetually in the shallow end will also bore them and they will leave. NPC corps are without a doubt the boring shallow end.
People will argue from the point of exceptions (veterans hanging out in an NPC corp having oodles of fun), but the exceptions don't contribute much in a discussion about trends (data which CCP has shared with us).
agreed, ... but, also bare in mind. One mans gristle, is another mans meat. What you might find boring, others might find reassuring and good (and even interesting). It is swings and roundabouts.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12149
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 22:12:58 -
[402] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it:
I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back.
What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at.
And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets. You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play
Nope. What I'm asking is that NPC corps not be the most viable choice for almost everything in highsec.
You know, so that cooperative play is incentivized, since CCP has told us that solo PvE playstyle hurt retention.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
143
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 22:35:28 -
[403] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Before Demerius comes back in here to tell me what he thinks I believe, I'll go ahead and summarize it:
I have no problem shooting at people who can shoot back.
What I do have a problem with is petty little videogame fascists who want to tell me who I should or shouldn't be able to shoot at.
And since those people very often coincide with the people who would like to see my ability to shoot at them disappear entirely, they become preferred targets. You do realise that are you also trying to tell people how they should play Nope. What I'm asking is that NPC corps not be the most viable choice for almost everything in highsec. You know, so that cooperative play is incentivized, since CCP has told us that solo PvE playstyle hurt retention.
Wrong, you just want to grief new players and pad you kill board. |
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 22:53:16 -
[404] - Quote
Every time the CODE terrorist guy acts like he is worried about player retention I giggle. |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Heiian Conglomerate
1394
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 23:17:14 -
[405] - Quote
Eldhih wrote:Prior to DNS, my experience of player corporations is negative. Went from so called pvp corp to pvp corp, that ended up soling faction war or hisec mining for x weeks. The problem from my point of view is accountability. Players need the ability to comment on a corp they leave to warn future would be recruits.
Problem with that is - Not everyone will gel with a group.
Example:
We might find 1 in 3 people who join suit the corp culture.
So 2 will leave not having really gotten into things/enjoying it while 1 has a great time and stays.
So the only comments that would be left would be from the 2 who didnt click with the corp.
The people who stay are not going to be represented with your idea.
It takes time to find a corp that suits.
You need to try a few before you find a home where you will fit in.
https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
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Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
859
|
Posted - 2015.03.16 23:21:20 -
[406] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Every time the CODE terrorist guy acts like he is worried about player retention I giggle.
I have a similar reaction when someone mentions CCP and player retention. When you wait 12 years, it feels more like a spider clinging to the edge of a toilet bowl. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 03:02:55 -
[407] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Eli Stan wrote:If these NPC players chat with but do not perform activities with other players of the same corp, it is because that's how they have chosen to play the game, not because they are unable to. Force or incent them into moving into player corps, and they still will chat with but will not perform activities with other players of the same corp - and in your theory will be just as likely to quit the game as if they were still in an NPC corp. CAS members, I know, get together to actually do stuff all the time. Out of all the NPC corps in game, you know a few that do stuff together. Not intending to be rude, but that's a **** argument. I can't remember the name it, a logical fallacy? Something like that. And I do mean I'm not meaning to be rude. =\ It's just that just because YOU know people that do stuff out of the 500 or so per NPC corp, doesn't mean they ALL do something. "A+B doesn't = K" Thats the type of logic your using. "I know people who work together in NPC corps therefor there must be more people that do stuff in NPC corps. " You see what I mean? CCP has proven that NPC corps have the LOWEST retention rates. NPC corps ARE a problem. And they need to be fixed. The statistic have proven this. Arguing that it's not the problem is biased as again, there are literally statistics to prove, are at the least point to, NPC corps being a **** area of the game that the majority of people quit.
Perhaps I didn't explain my self well enough, because you're saying I said something I didn't actually say. (Or perhaps I could accuse you of using the logical fallacy called a straw-man argument? :) ) My apologies if so, and I'll try to explain more clearly.
I'm not at all saying that "they ALL do something." I'm saying that my belief is being in an NPC corp does not cause people to not do stuff together. I'm saying that my belief is being in an NPC corp does not cause people to quit EVE.
Players can be, and are, social in NPC corps. Players can be, and are, social in player corps. People who quit EVE while they are in an NPC corp would, I bet, still quit EVE while they are in a player corp. (Except they'd likely get kicked and end up in an NPC corp and be tallied as an NPC corp member anyway, it seems.)
Take every single person who's ever tried EVE but quit, never having been in a player corp, and if they had been forced/incented into joining a player corp before quitting and I bet hardly any of them would have stuck around anyway. Take all the people who have stuck with EVE in an NPC corp and force/incent them into joining a player corp, and I bet a fair number of them will quit EVE. Net result for CCP would be, in my mind, a loss of playerbase. YMMV. -shrug- |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 03:06:04 -
[408] - Quote
By the way, have CCP ever posted the detailed stats on accounts that weren't renewed? With info on account age and corp history for each? Or is this based on a passing comment in a blog or something along the lines of "most players who've let account subs lapse were in NPC corps at the time" without further detail? I don't recall the actual data being shown, just hearsay.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34823
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 03:39:26 -
[409] - Quote
Mikael Menethil wrote:Because wardecs.
These mechanics are revolutionizing the MMO scene, attracting many new players and keeping others active.
Many future MMOs will have it, they're the epitome of sandbox gaming.
In nullsec a Corp or Alliance can go to war against anyone they like without any mechanic in the game preventing them.
The same in lowsec, with the only consequence outside FW being crime watch if they don't pay for a war.
There is nothing special about highsec that should prevent aggression on the Corp/Alliance scale. But unfortunately CONCORD does prevent it, so the wardec mechanic is consistent with what can be achieved elsewhere in the game.
Without CONCORD, no wardec mechanic would be needed.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34823
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 03:47:39 -
[410] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:By the way, have CCP ever posted the detailed stats on accounts that weren't renewed? With info on account age and corp history for each? Or is this based on a passing comment in a blog or something along the lines of "most players who've let account subs lapse were in NPC corps at the time" without further detail? I don't recall the actual data being shown, just hearsay.
It's not hearsay. It's directly from CCP.
I'll see if I can drag up the references and add them to this post.
I can't remember off hand of it was CSM minutes, devblogs, o7 or something else; so it might be a little while.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23980
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 04:18:02 -
[411] - Quote
Of new players who are subbed:
- 50% of them leave (in ~1 month)
- 40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving"
- 10% move into a "wide range of experiences", "training with other players, in corps much more often, they're talking on fleet chats more often, they're on PVP kills more often". "These people tend to stick with us, they love the game and stay with the game for a long time". If CCP can "get other players to have the experiences this group is having, the better off we will be because for them it is really rich and meaningful and it sticks with them all the time".
Source: Fanfest 2014 - New Player Experience Vision
Y'all want to keep telling Kaarous and Scip that they're making stuff up?
#afkleadership -óߦªß¦ç-ó
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Valkin Mordirc
789
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 04:30:22 -
[412] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Of new players who are subbed:
- 50% of them leave (in ~1 month)
- 40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving"
- 10% move into a "wide range of experiences", "training with other players, in corps much more often, they're talking on fleet chats more often, they're on PVP kills more often". "These people tend to stick with us, they love the game and stay with the game for a long time". If CCP can "get other players to have the experiences this group is having, the better off we will be because for them it is really rich and meaningful and it sticks with them all the time".
Source: Fanfest 2014 - New Player Experience VisionY'all want to keep telling Kaarous and Scip that they're making stuff up?
^^
Entirely this.
It's not hearsay. So again, if CCP is saying, NPC corps seem to cause problems with play retention. So Arguing the point
that NPC corps and player corp balance is "Working as Intended" Is not true.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1952
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 04:35:33 -
[413] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
^^
Entirely this.
It's not hearsay. So again, if CCP is saying, NPC corps seem to cause problems with play retention. So Arguing the point
that NPC corps and player corp balance is "Working as Intended" Is not true.
Except you are utterly misinterpreting the facts by saying that CCP is saying NPC corps cause problems with play retention.
So yes, Kaarous is making it up.
Are there issues with player retention, undoubtedly. But NPC corps are NOT what cause those problems, and NPC corps have just as much opportunity for socialising as any other corp.
What really causes the main issues are the lack of benefits from socialising in almost any PvE activity. You are punished for trying to be social in most forms of PvE by lower income even. |
Valkin Mordirc
789
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Posted - 2015.03.17 04:58:26 -
[414] - Quote
Quote:
What really causes the main issues are the lack of benefits from socialising in almost any PvE activity. You are punished for trying to be social in most forms of PvE by lower income even.
I can agree with that. It's a fair point, However if misson rewarded equal benefit it make mess with the market so an entirely new reward system is needed.
Quote:Except you are utterly misinterpreting the facts by saying that CCP is saying NPC corps cause problems with play retention.
So yes, Kaarous is making it up.
Are there issues with player retention, undoubtedly. But NPC corps are NOT what cause those problems, and NPC corps have just as much opportunity for socialising as any other corp.
I feel as if I slightly misinterpreted myself. Let me backpedal a little bit.
NPC corps need tweaked, Highsec Player Corps need buffed.
However. Buffed is not to allow "Wardec Immunity" by buff I mean to allow more long term goals to be reached.
As for NPC corps being a problem, and needing tweak. They don't really give players long term goals. Or goals to reach out side of a personal level. If I stayed in an NPC corp, I would have quit EVE long time ago, I've had three accounts before this one, and quit mainly because I didn't know what I was doing.
NPC corps are an issue for me because for any Newbro it isn't enough to provide a good hook to keep them playing and keeping the game I like fresh and going.
That is just me, so it could be different. However I strong that that, NPC corps do not provide direction. That is what needs to be fixed about NPC corps.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Ferni Ka'Nviiou
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
10145
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 05:37:01 -
[415] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote: NPC corps need tweaked, Highsec Player Corps need buffed.
However. Buffed is not to allow "Wardec Immunity" by buff I mean to allow more long term goals to be reached.
As for NPC corps being a problem, and needing tweak. They don't really give players long term goals. Or goals to reach out side of a personal level. If I stayed in an NPC corp, I would have quit EVE long time ago, I've had three accounts before this one, and quit mainly because I didn't know what I was doing.
NPC corps are an issue for me because for any Newbro it isn't enough to provide a good hook to keep them playing and keeping the game I like fresh and going.
That is just me, so it could be different. However I strongly feel that that, NPC corps do not provide direction. That is what needs to be fixed about NPC corps.
That's the new player experience you're wanting a change in.
Player corps don't naturally provide direction either.
The core fault is the new player experience. |
Valkin Mordirc
789
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 07:03:52 -
[416] - Quote
Ferni Ka'Nviiou wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote: NPC corps need tweaked, Highsec Player Corps need buffed.
However. Buffed is not to allow "Wardec Immunity" by buff I mean to allow more long term goals to be reached.
As for NPC corps being a problem, and needing tweak. They don't really give players long term goals. Or goals to reach out side of a personal level. If I stayed in an NPC corp, I would have quit EVE long time ago, I've had three accounts before this one, and quit mainly because I didn't know what I was doing.
NPC corps are an issue for me because for any Newbro it isn't enough to provide a good hook to keep them playing and keeping the game I like fresh and going.
That is just me, so it could be different. However I strongly feel that that, NPC corps do not provide direction. That is what needs to be fixed about NPC corps. That's the new player experience you're wanting a change in. Player corps don't naturally provide direction either. The core fault is the new player experience.
Aye, However every new player starts in an NPC corp. So NPC corps need to be more New Player open,
NPC corps themselves I still believe are a problem. as listed above.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3222
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Posted - 2015.03.17 07:33:41 -
[417] - Quote
About this part:
"40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving"
How do we know that "for many of them that's not a good fit"? Maybe for that 40%, solo, isolated play is exactly what they want from a game. They do as much of that play style as Eve has to offer, find they have done all they can do, and move on to some other game.
Maybe, given the entire philosophy on which Eve is written, it only appeals to 10% of the people who try it. If we want more people to stay with Eve, changing the NPE, or corps, or NPC corps is not enough. We need to look deeper, into the basic philosophy of Eve. ( Cold, hard universe, actions have consequences, you are never safe, player driven content with some theme park stuff here and there.)
Or we keep the current philosophy, and accept that 10% of new players will be all Eve ever keeps.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34825
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 07:56:41 -
[418] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Or we keep the current philosophy, and accept that 10% of new players will be all Eve ever keeps.
Or keep the current philosophy, make changes to the NPE and find ways to make player corps more discoverable and more attractive to move to, so that the players among that 90% that will also be attracted by the play that the 10% find, have ways to find/access it easier.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 08:29:57 -
[419] - Quote
IMO the new player experience has more to do with poor player retention. |
Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
138
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Posted - 2015.03.17 09:29:00 -
[420] - Quote
IMO there's just not that many people in the world who have the correct mentality to appreciate EVE and commit to it. Too many quick quid type people.
It should be more about attracting more of the right crowd in the first place, than trying to change the game to retain those who aren't the right fit for EVE.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Diggle Dirker
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2015.03.17 09:36:40 -
[421] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:About this part:
"40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving"
How do we know that "for many of them that's not a good fit"? Maybe for that 40%, solo, isolated play is exactly what they want from a game. They do as much of that play style as Eve has to offer, find they have done all they can do, and move on to some other game.
+1
CCP are being disingenuous there. It's not that mining, missioning and leveling up their raven are "not a good fit" for those players, it's that those things are simply not much fun compared to solo PvE activities in other MMOs. The PvPers will naturally gravitate to the sandbox stuff and remain subscribed. The others will get bored staring at rocks/shooting NPCs and leave.
If CCP want those players to remain then they'll have to overhaul PvE. Make solo activities more engaging. Allow players to participate in group PvE combat within hours of character creation, not weeks. "But muh EVE is a PvP game!" So what? That's not an excuse for a subpar PvE experience.
Focusing on the New Player Experience is like putting fresh paint over damp patches. Fix what you're selling before you try to sell it. |
Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
138
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 09:45:27 -
[422] - Quote
Diggle Dirker wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:About this part:
"40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving"
How do we know that "for many of them that's not a good fit"? Maybe for that 40%, solo, isolated play is exactly what they want from a game. They do as much of that play style as Eve has to offer, find they have done all they can do, and move on to some other game. +1 CCP are being disingenuous there. It's not that mining, missioning and leveling up their raven are "not a good fit" for those players, it's that those things are simply not much fun compared to solo PvE activities in other MMOs. The PvPers will naturally gravitate to the sandbox stuff and remain subscribed. The others will get bored staring at rocks/shooting NPCs and leave. If CCP want those players to remain then they'll have to overhaul PvE. Make solo activities more engaging. Allow players to participate in group PvE combat within hours of character creation, not weeks. "But muh EVE is a PvP game!" So what? That's not an excuse for a subpar PvE experience. Focusing on the New Player Experience is like putting fresh paint over damp patches. Fix what you're selling before you try to sell it.
The man has a point ... but, don't fix by destroying what is good. Careful fixing is required here.
There must be a way to make group activity (in any part of EVE) noticably more rewarding (isk wise) than solo, 'for the individual'. So many times in a group the higher skilled peeps feel they're loosing out because of lower skilled players. And even when evenyl matched, it's often either just as efficient or not much worse (and less hassle) going solo.
And I mean every angle of eve. Trading, manufacuring, PI, haluing (we have mining bonus, why not fleet haulage bonuss in warp stabs etc) ... jsut a few ideas ...
* I say isk wise, because the social aspect will be more rewarding by definition, though maybe there's some group mechanics that can be improved ...
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
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Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2015.03.17 10:26:32 -
[423] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
Maybe for that 40%, solo, isolated play is exactly what they want from a game.
Maybe, given the entire philosophy on which Eve is written, it only appeals to 10% of the people who try it. If we want more people to stay with Eve, changing the NPE, or corps, or NPC corps is not enough.
Spot on.
Many are interested in EVE simply because they have no other options.
They know what kind of "game" this is, but they still give it a try, thinking maybe they can manage to avoid most of the PvP stuff and play it like an average mmorpg.
As soon as they'll get more options, I think they will not bother the EVE community again.
Until then, they isolate and try to do whatever they want to do. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
700
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 11:41:10 -
[424] - Quote
Diggle Dirker wrote:
CCP are being disingenuous there. It's not that mining, missioning and leveling up their raven are "not a good fit" for those players, it's that those things are simply not much fun compared to solo PvE activities in other MMOs. The PvPers will naturally gravitate to the sandbox stuff and remain subscribed. The others will get bored staring at rocks/shooting NPCs and leave.
If CCP want those players to remain then they'll have to overhaul PvE. Make solo activities more engaging. Allow players to participate in group PvE combat within hours of character creation, not weeks. "But muh EVE is a PvP game!" So what? That's not an excuse for a subpar PvE experience.
Focusing on the New Player Experience is like putting fresh paint over damp patches. Fix what you're selling before you try to sell it.
But that is the point, CCP is not trying to sell a single player mining simulator or missioning game. They have built a single-shard universe where everyone influences everyone else. This player-driven sandbox is suppose to be a place where players interact with each other and make their own stories, not consume pre-written content. CCP wants players to engage with the sandbox and other players, not wall themselves off from the greater universe of New Eden.
CCP Rise recently summed this up nicely:
Quote:
We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.
Sure, it would be great if there was enough developer resources to completely revamp PvE content, but that is not CCP's primary focus, nor is it an approach that would increase player retention according to their data. Solo PvE players do not add much to the greater universe, and therefore will be a low priority for a company trying to make a sandbox game for players to frollic with each other in. Perhaps we will eventually see some more group-orientated PvE content like Incursions, but don't expect CCP to spend much effort on content that is mostly "walled off" from the rest of the game like more solo missions.
If some players truly understand what kind of game this is and still prefer to play in the sandbox by themselves, more power to them. But really the game should encourage all players, both new and established to leave NPC corps in order to make more rewards. As was said player corps need a good, solid buff to make them a persistent entity that has value, can be improved and that players want to defend. Right now the game does not provide incentives for players to team up (at least in highsec) or defend a corp. The mechanics reward solo, risk-averse play rather than collaborative and risky group play to the detriment of a vibrant sandbox.
Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2015.03.17 11:46:12 -
[425] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:
The mechanics reward solo, risk-averse play rather than collaborative and risky group play to the detriment of a vibrant sandbox.
Have you, Sir, heard about the Blob?
A good signature always makes up for lack of content.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12156
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Posted - 2015.03.17 11:50:26 -
[426] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Y'all want to keep telling Kaarous and Scip that they're making stuff up?
Of course they want to keep telling me that.
Feels > Reals for these people.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Thora Zhubilai
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 12:11:18 -
[427] - Quote
Hardness, harshness, nastiness, villainy, viciousness and more which are usual in that game are the reasons why a lot of us enjoy it.
But there are also the reasons why a lot of newcomers leavesGǪ
ThatGÇÖs EveGÇÖs dilemma!
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12157
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Posted - 2015.03.17 12:20:07 -
[428] - Quote
Thora Zhubilai wrote:
But there are also the reasons why a lot of newcomers leavesGǪ
Nope.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
175
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 12:54:52 -
[429] - Quote
Thanks a lot for sharing again ... I hope this finally kicks the NPC garbage out of the discussion and we can go back to the core of the problem ... how to make new players experience "This is EvE" with as small barriers as possible, so they can judge if it's the game they want to play (for the rest of their lives  ).
To speak for myself, what finally got me in, were the NPSI groups and fleets and all the different play styles associated with them, from small scale frigate size, being part of a large battleship fleet to cloaky ops. Everybody can participate from a few weeks in the game, with no politics, (almost) no drama, no obligations (except TS/Mumble), just x-up and have fun (or not).
I think the best you can do is, take newbies out for a PvP op yourself (if you want to FC) or direct them towards the NPSI groups to fly with them a couple of times ... I'm sure, if they get hooked, they will likely stay, if not, at least they can't complain not being able to experience "This is EvE".
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3230
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 13:56:22 -
[430] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thora Zhubilai wrote:
But there are also the reasons why a lot of newcomers leavesGǪ
Nope.
Oddly, CCP says they cannot verify that griefing drives away players, then make a change to the game designed to reduce griefing, all in the name of player retention!
I speaking of the friendly fire switch corps now have. CCP's reasoning: New players join a corp, and get shot for their trouble. They go back to an NPC corp. Other new players hear about this, and decide to not join a corp at all. They stay in an NPC corp, and eventually leave the game. CCP decides to add the friendly fire switch to help this situation, to help keep these players.
Then they say players are not leaving due to griefing? Huh? Then what was the reason for the friendly fire switch?
I can see CCPs statement in a very literal way: The players who stayed in an NPC corp, then quit the game, did not get griefed out. After all, they never joined a corp and got shot. The actions they made were to avoid potential griefing. In a literal sense, CCP's statement, that they were not griefed out, is correct. But they still left due to griefing.
Things CCP is doing, and talking about doing:
The friendly fire switch may help. It will be interesting to see.
They are re-doing the new player experience.
Social groups made easy. We already have these. I personally think they should be defined as "A collection of pilots, corps, or alliances that all share a common interest" and be called coalitions. Game mechanics would define them as at least one chat channel, at least one mailing list, and moderators., Under this definition, even the AJ role play group is a coalition.
Corp lite: A corp that cannot participate in war, cannot be part of an alliance, and cannot hold in-space assets, and has a small NPC tax (say half of the NPC corp tax.)
CCP also does need to make finding a corp easier, and make finding a social group easier. The main thing I want to know: Are the other players people to my liking, and do things I like to do? Somehow I need to be able to research that. Sort through all the hundreds of corps, and find the one for me.
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
|
|
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Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:17:19 -
[431] - Quote
It's just a guy that says it's a myth, when Google is full of results that say otherwise.
I could compile a list with all the discussions about quitting EVE and griefers, if they would post some data from the survey given to the player when he quits.
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Diggle Dirker
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:24:31 -
[432] - Quote
Here is what I think might help:
1) Make new characters corp-less, introduce them to PvP before showing them how to mine, direct them to corp recruitment and then allow them to choose the type of corp they want to join. Maybe give them an in-game "What kind of capsuleer would you like to be?" questionnaire that bumps relevant corps to the top of the list according to their selections. Make it clear NPC corps are an option but highlight their restrictions.
2) Give player corps the option to grant new characters (up to 30 days old?) automatic membership upon application. Allow them to click the join button and boom, they're in. If you don't want newbs/potential spies joining your corp, turn the option off. You want to do your bit for player retention? Give the newbs a chance. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
701
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:29:10 -
[433] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thora Zhubilai wrote:
But there are also the reasons why a lot of newcomers leavesGǪ
Nope. Oddly, CCP says they cannot verify that griefing drives away players, then make a change to the game designed to reduce griefing, all in the name of player retention! I speaking of the friendly fire switch corps now have. CCP's reasoning: New players join a corp, and get shot for their trouble. They go back to an NPC corp. Other new players hear about this, and decide to not join a corp at all. They stay in an NPC corp, and eventually leave the game. CCP decides to add the friendly fire switch to help this situation, to help keep these players. Then they say players are not leaving due to griefing? Huh? Then what was the reason for the friendly fire switch?
That change was not made to reduce "griefing" of new players. It was made to encourage established players to take new players into their corp by reducing the risk to these established players with assets to awoxers. You can tell this as the switch was made optional meaning I can still set up a corp with the flag off, recruit a bunch of new players, and then blow them up for my entertainment. That wasn't nerfed at all.
CCP is trying their best to get players out of NPC corps and into player corps. The Friendly Fire change was essentially just a bribe to older players to try to get them to interact more with newer players.
Besides, awoxers were never a threat to new players. No one is going to go to the trouble of infiltrating a corp just to blow up a new player in a Venture. Awoxers were only a threat to established players in carebear corps with juicy assets. Probably still are in fact.
Mikael Menethil wrote:It's just a guy that says it's a myth, when Google is full of results that say otherwise.
I could compile a list with all the discussions about quitting EVE and griefers, if they would post some data from the survey given to the player when he quits.
CCP Rise, one of the lead game designers at CCP is "just a guy"? He has access to this survey data you want, and he is saying quite clearly that there is no correlation between "griefing" and player retention. What more do you want?
Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10195
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 14:41:35 -
[434] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thora Zhubilai wrote:
But there are also the reasons why a lot of newcomers leavesGǪ
Nope.
Kaarous Aldurald, you will now experience THIS, mainly because some people's worldview is tied to the idea that the actions of people they hate (who they call 'griefers' but who are actually playing the game within the rules of the EULA) must be responsible for some negative aspect of something. If the 'bad people' aren't actually making 'bad things' happen, that would call into question their personal judgement, which would cause soul searching, which would reveal the inner flaws that led them to the bad conclusion in the 1st place.
They can't have that under any circumstances, so cling to the myth of 'griefers running off new players' it is. The real truth is that most gamers don't have the stomach or patience for EVE so they quit and go play something more (instant gratification) 'fun' it has nothing to do with mean people in spaceships.
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Ciel993
Vision Partners
End of Natural Lifetime
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 17:29:09 -
[435] - Quote
so... what was this thread about again? I got confused after reading like 10 pages |
Chewytowel Haklar
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
96
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 17:57:15 -
[436] - Quote
Mostly because I like doing whatever I fee like doing. I might be a bit ADD about things and not want to commit to any particular area of a game at the moment. If I join an industrial corp I may decide I want to do a little FW content and then I'd have to leave my corp to do that and hope I get invited back. I seriously doubt there are industrial faction warfare corps I could join that do both of those things. I also sometimes don't want to be in faction warfare and make myself an easy target when I am just shooting space rocks and collecting ore cause I feel like making some quick easy isk.
If I join a nullsec corp I run the risk of inheriting all of their problems and become a big target as a result. If I join a losec pirate corp I run the risk of loosing security status which means entering high sec locations becomes problematic. I want to keep my options open and I suppose that is why I remain in an NPC Corp. It certainly isn't because I am scared of internet spaceships shooting at me though as I am currently at higher risk of that happening being in FW.
On top of all that, corp's can come with their own political bs I might not want to deal with at all, nor do I want to maintain a role in one and gain someone's trust. Kissing butt is just lame to me unless there is some really cool benefit that comes with it. It's nice to be in a corp that does things, but at the same time it sucks in a way because people have schedules that may or may not work for me as well. Anyway, if you really wanted to know maybe this answer will help fill in some blanks op. Have a great day! |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 18:25:50 -
[437] - Quote
Here's a recent thread written by a quitting newbie that might be interesting to discuss in context of this discussion since it touches on joining a player corp:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=412796
Do you think his experience trying to join a player corp is typical or atypical?
If it's atypical, we can ignore the situation. But if this sort of thing is common, do you think it's a problem? And if so, what do you think can be done to fix it?
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7985
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 18:33:02 -
[438] - Quote
Ciel993 wrote:so... what was this thread about again? I got confused after reading like 10 pages
It's about nothing much now that the likes of Jenn and Kaarous have come in to muck it up with their usual song and dance.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10201
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 18:45:24 -
[439] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Ciel993 wrote:so... what was this thread about again? I got confused after reading like 10 pages It's about nothing much now that the likes of Jenn and Kaarous have come in to muck it up with their usual song and dance. Mr Epeen
Internet forums victory is assured when, instead of even trying to form any sort counter argument, all a poster can do is snipe from the sidelines like a spectator.
~Jenn ASide, March 2015
You're hatred of the truth and of evidence (as Kaarous provided) is sad. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23985
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 19:27:34 -
[440] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Here's a recent thread written by a quitting newbie that might be interesting to discuss in context of this discussion since it touches on joining a player corp: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=412796
Do you think his experience trying to join a player corp is typical or atypical? If it's atypical, we can ignore the situation. But if this sort of thing is common, do you think it's a problem? And if so, what do you think can be done to fix it?
The plural of anecdotes isn't fact.
Brave is currently experiencing a high load of applications. Does this overwhelm your single point of data? Does it invalidate it?
Edit: I'm suggesting that cherry picking random rants on this forum (or reddit) are proof of nothing.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34828
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 19:33:59 -
[441] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
Oddly, CCP says they cannot verify that griefing drives away players, then make a change to the game designed to reduce griefing, all in the name of player retention!
I speaking of the friendly fire switch corps now have. CCP's reasoning: New players join a corp, and get shot for their trouble. They go back to an NPC corp. Other new players hear about this, and decide to not join a corp at all. They stay in an NPC corp, and eventually leave the game. CCP decides to add the friendly fire switch to help this situation, to help keep these players.
No, that wasn't the reason. From page 78 of the summer summit:
CCP Masterplan - We're looking at changing three things before the end of the year. First is the intracorp
aggression rules - At the moment all members can now freely aggress each other. We are looking
to change this so that being in the same member corp does not give you the right to legally kill your corp
mates. The main goal of this is to make recruitment safer for the recruiter and the recruitee. And it will
remove the fact that you current cannot mitigate the risk of recruiting someone which makes people
not recruit.
Not about griefing (which is not allowed in the game) driving away players, but about removing perceived barriers to player corp recruitment. The friendly fire switch was what motivated this thread in the first place.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
7985
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 19:53:07 -
[442] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Internet forums victory is assured when, instead of even trying to form any sort counter argument, all a poster can do is snipe from the sidelines like a spectator.
~Jenn ASide, March 2015
You're hatred of the truth and of evidence (as Kaarous provided) is sad.
That's the difference between you guys and myself.
You see posting here as some sort of contest or combat. Something to be won or lost. I see it as a place for sharing information and ideas.
By the way, "You are hatred" is not English. Just thought I'd share that information with you.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23986
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 19:53:29 -
[443] - Quote
Awox switch: though I think a few people have put a dramatic twist on this I think this change was made to remove ambiguity from Crimewatch rules.
From CSM 9 Winter Summit notes:
Quote:CCP Masterplan then started talking about the incoming Corporation aggression changes. Switch modes takes 24 hours, and the current state is publicly visible. Swapping between modes also sends a notification to everyone in the corporation.
Sugar Kyle asked whether you would get a notification when you join a corporation with Friendly fire stating that it is enabled for that group. Masterplan showed that the Recruitment window would have a filter window, and that it would show in the application window what the state of Friendly Fire in it.
Masterplan brought up that the name might need to be changed for better clarity as it works differently to how other games handle friendly fire (other games don't penalize you and you can't do damage, opposite on both for EVE).
The change has nothing to with griefing as I'm not aware of any CCP statements in relation to this change that indicate this is their goal. I think too many people (on both sides) are projecting here..
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34828
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 20:09:39 -
[444] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: I see it as a place for sharing information and ideas.
Great. Maybe we can get away from this round of silly personal attacks you started and back to just discussing the topic.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 20:16:15 -
[445] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Here's a recent thread written by a quitting newbie that might be interesting to discuss in context of this discussion since it touches on joining a player corp: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=412796
Do you think his experience trying to join a player corp is typical or atypical? If it's atypical, we can ignore the situation. But if this sort of thing is common, do you think it's a problem? And if so, what do you think can be done to fix it?
Interesting thread. Not surprising to me that it might not be NPC corps, it might not be the NPE, it might just be because a lot of the people that play this game are not at all welcoming of new players. Fortunately that has not been my experience with CAS. I was lucky enough to find the right corp for me and I didn't even have an annoying application process. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 20:49:58 -
[446] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Here's a recent thread written by a quitting newbie that might be interesting to discuss in context of this discussion since it touches on joining a player corp: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=412796
Do you think his experience trying to join a player corp is typical or atypical? If it's atypical, we can ignore the situation. But if this sort of thing is common, do you think it's a problem? And if so, what do you think can be done to fix it? The plural of anecdotes isn't fact. Brave is currently experiencing a high load of applications. Does this overwhelm your single point of data? Does it invalidate it? Edit: I'm suggesting that cherry picking random rants on this forum (or reddit) are proof of nothing.
The data is valid. A newbie left. I was asking whether it had any meaning or any bearing on the current discussion. A thread caught my attention and I was asking whether that player's experience was typical or atypical. Your link indicates it might be atypical. Or maybe, it's typical but he was impatient and he didn't wait long enough to get a response? (Who is /r/outsideinfluence, by the way? Can we take them at their word BNI is the fastest growing alliance? I'm curious how fast that is as well. The whole premise of this thread is predicated on wanting to increase the growth rate of membership.) (By the way, do you really consider the posts by the newbie in the thread I linked to be part of a rant? I thought he was simply asking for some direction in EVE. He got some answers - whether they were good or bad answers is up for iterpretation - decided EVE wasn't to his taste, and made a choice to leave.)
So BNI seems to be doing very well in terms of recruitment... yet CCP says only 10% of people who try EVE end up in any sort of player corp... What's BNI doing that the rest of the corps aren't? Can the rest of EVE take lessons to improve the playerbase? What effect will forcing/incenting new players to leave their NPC corp have on recruitment efforts by a) growing corps like BNI, and b) the non-growing corps?
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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Brawlers Inc.
1544
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 21:04:22 -
[447] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
NPC corps have a large number of people paying attention to a single chat channel, and no rules in that channel. Seems like a great place for content to me!
New Player Placement Specialist and Scope Project FC.
Contact me for a free consultation.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12163
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 22:13:11 -
[448] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:
Oddly, CCP says they cannot verify that griefing drives away players, then make a change to the game designed to reduce griefing, all in the name of player retention!
Nope.
I can still reverse awox newbies just as easily, and corp thief just as easily.
It was, in fact, intended to get more people into player corps, which just goes to prove my point that even CCP can't ignore the problem any longer.
Whether it was successful or whether it was the right move, could be contested. But the reason was not "griefing", if you even took a cursory read through their rationale. But I know full well that you and every other carebear didn't, you just saw what you wanted to see.
Feels > Reals, in full display.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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KIller Wabbit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
915
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 22:58:22 -
[449] - Quote
You look at all the reason trial accounts leave and the NPE stands out like a huge sore thumb. Even the new Opportunities based NPE is causing many potential customers to throw up their hands in frustration. Right now the NPE is a bloody revolving door - client downloaded, play for an hour - NOPE! Outta here! Frankly, I don't even see how CCP retains as many as they do. The NPC (non-)problem is the least of their worries. |
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 23:09:01 -
[450] - Quote
That is a good question. I can say that for me it was the strength of their trailers that drew me back time and again. If you play a bit and unsub they are also very good about sending you email updates about new content and changes to the game and several times I came back because of that.
Off the top of my head I remember coming back when the new avatar system went into place. I was not a huge fan of the old ones (even though they had a certain charm) and when I saw some videos of the new avatar system I was intrigued and thought I would come back just to check it out. Once I did I got drawn back in for a while.
Most recently I came back because of the very welcome change to the skill queue system. My reason for unsubbing last year was I just had too many things going on with my RL. My father had just passed away and I had to travel back and forth to deal with packing up the house and deal with the estate. Because of the way the old queue system worked it was very easy to miss out on training time if you just got busy with RL and couldn't log on for stretches. Especially if you have multiple accounts it became a chore keeping track of it all. Since it felt like a bit of a rip off paying for a game that you didn't have time to log into but also were losing training time on I decided to unsub.
But then I saw the recent change to the skill queue system and came back. And now I have to say I am much less likely to unsub because even if RL gets hectic again I know I can have months worth of training time queued up (and not just some random level 5 that I queued as a space saver) with no fear of it dropping. Smart move on their part IMO.
But that initial NPE. Oof. They really need to focus even more resources on that as far as I am concerned. |
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
408
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 23:14:40 -
[451] - Quote
I have removed some off-topic posts. Please stay on topic and be respectful, along with our other wonderful rules.
Quote:27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2015.03.17 23:17:44 -
[452] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I speaking of the friendly fire switch corps now have. CCP's reasoning: New players join a corp, and get shot for their trouble. They go back to an NPC corp. Other new players hear about this, and decide to not join a corp at all. They stay in an NPC corp, and eventually leave the game. CCP decides to add the friendly fire switch to help this situation, to help keep these players.
The other half of the reasoning is that corporations were afraid to recruit because they were afraid newbs would awox them. Which also doesn't make a lot of sense.
My answer to the OP's question, even though the OP is a massive troll:
1) I live in highsec
1a) highsec corps are awful
2) I can do everything I want without joining or forming a corp
3) sometimes interesting people (or new players needing help) show up in NPC corp chat |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
135
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 01:53:55 -
[453] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thora Zhubilai wrote:
But there are also the reasons why a lot of newcomers leavesGǪ
Nope. Oddly, CCP says they cannot verify that griefing drives away players, then make a change to the game designed to reduce griefing, all in the name of player retention! I speaking of the friendly fire switch corps now have. CCP's reasoning: New players join a corp, and get shot for their trouble. They go back to an NPC corp. Other new players hear about this, and decide to not join a corp at all. They stay in an NPC corp, and eventually leave the game. CCP decides to add the friendly fire switch to help this situation, to help keep these players. Then they say players are not leaving due to griefing? Huh? Then what was the reason for the friendly fire switch? I can see CCPs statement in a very literal way: The players who stayed in an NPC corp, then quit the game, did not get griefed out. After all, they never joined a corp and got shot. The actions they made were to avoid potential griefing. In a literal sense, CCP's statement, that they were not griefed out, is correct. But they still left due to griefing. Things CCP is doing, and talking about doing: The friendly fire switch may help. It will be interesting to see. They are re-doing the new player experience. Social groups made easy. We already have these. I personally think they should be defined as "A collection of pilots, corps, or alliances that all share a common interest" and be called coalitions. Game mechanics would define them as at least one chat channel, at least one mailing list, and moderators., Under this definition, even the AJ role play group is a coalition. Corp lite: A corp that cannot participate in war, cannot be part of an alliance, and cannot hold in-space assets, and has a small NPC tax (say half of the NPC corp tax.) CCP also does need to make finding a corp easier, and make finding a social group easier. The main thing I want to know: Are the other players people to my liking, and do things I like to do? Somehow I need to be able to research that. Sort through all the hundreds of corps, and find the one for me.
The switch was a bugfix, which removed the old hack, which allowed handful of people do duels when there were no dueling, and web freighters when there were no duels. Once duels arrived, the hack were not needed anymore and the right course of action were to remove it completely.
However, complaints were made. CCP went extra length, and delayed removal of the hack for YEARS until they came up with a solution which allow people who want it to optionally apply that hack to themselves, so all the slobs who wanted their freighter webbing bots to go unmodified, got that opportunity. I mean, even some hardcore pvp corps I know have switched to ff illegal; when you have it as legal, there must be a reason, and most of the rational reasons I can come up with have that exploity odor.
Now to new players retention, the reason switch improves it were not new players being shot at. It's removing reluctance of player corps to recruit people in fear of potential 10 hours heroes, who spam apps and go for a safari just to teach people that they should not accept newbs. This is a very good change, even my corp made a few recruits it would've denied otherwise, and it weren't even actually recruiting. It makes perfect sense from retention side, but as I said before, it was just a hack removal and initially had nothing to do with retention.
Corp lites you are proposing is actually a combination of a fleet and a contact list, and you already have both. Maybe teach new people how to use those instead? Fleet interface is very hard to understand initially, and eve could really benefit from "add a friend" achievement other mmos have to make people understand the contact list.
And NPC corps need to have some kind of intro. I still remember just starting and my first and unanswered-to-date question was "where the hell do I stand?". I mean, there are people with green stars and people without them, what the hell does it means? I seriously thought for at least two weeks that green star is a rookie sign (being "green" kinda made that sense). There is not nearly enough explanation who the hell are those people around you, where is your position in this social ecosystem. Making people more aware of their status is what makes them wonder if it can be improved.
Then, if we can fix the grief decs, eve can be a game I can recommend to people who are not masochistic.
And yes, I have an older character I were griefed out on. Coming back just happened on an impulse a year after that. Grief decs did it.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 02:02:15 -
[454] - Quote
My experience with players who stay in NPC corps points me toward believing that most of them fall into two categories.
1: the "I'm a strong independent capsuleer who don't need no alliance" type. Not much can be done to change these minds, from what I have seen.
2: the guys who are intimidated by Eve, not realizing that there are solid, reliable corps who specialize in dragging the new player experience out back, and shooting it in the head while the new player gets showered in more money than they will know what to do with for several months. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23987
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 02:04:35 -
[455] - Quote
Eve Uni recruiters join the chat in realtime providing status of applications and they each have time zones they operate in. The E-Uni website even offers you information on queue through the in-game browser. E-Uni chat is one of the friendliest channels you can join.
Here is a key statement he made:
Ignacio Itovuo wrote:I was told that self-sufficiency was key
Why does he have to be told that? Why is being told that a sticking point in his mind for essentially his 'quit' forum post? I'll be honest with you, his departure doesn't seem like a real loss for the game. He applied to the E-Uni, the all-sec accessible, friendliest supportive player corp and removed himself from the process for every wrong reason he could possibly manufacture.
Can you explain to me why you think this person is a good example of a rookie player? To me he's a perfect example of the first "50%".. the kind of player EVE would never have retained in the first place.
Eli Stan wrote:Who is /r/outsideinfluence, by the way? Can we take them at their word BNI is the fastest growing alliance?
From CSM 9 Winter Summit notes I linked earlier:
Quote:CCP Fozzie also noted that they're looking at increasing the member cap again because once again BRAVE is getting close to the cap. They are worried about it getting to the point where it might start breaking things though, so they'll proceed cautiously.
Quote:So BNI seems to be doing very well in terms of recruitment... yet CCP says only 10% of people who try EVE end up in any sort of player corp... What's BNI doing that the rest of the corps aren't?
Someone from BNI simply said the following which I think describes them properly: Security is designed to keep people out. Brave is designed to keep people in.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
939
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 02:26:48 -
[456] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Quote:So BNI seems to be doing very well in terms of recruitment... yet CCP says only 10% of people who try EVE end up in any sort of player corp... What's BNI doing that the rest of the corps aren't? Someone from BNI simply said the following which I think describes them properly: Security is designed to keep people out. Brave is designed to keep people in.
...and KarmaFleet is there to pick up the Redditors who wish to be bathed in the glorious light of the Dear Leader.
In all seriousness though, I don't know what more can be done at this point to make new players realize what they are missing out on by staying in NPC corps.
The only one that's worth even half a **** is CAS, and new guys don't exactly realize what they are doing when they select their starting NPC corp. |
Tregod
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 04:33:50 -
[457] - Quote
My experience with RUN is that it used to be a fairly lively NPC corp up until a few years ago. People would talk in chat on a regular basis, sometimes helping, sometimes trolling, and a lot times just BSing. Nowadays, a lot of that is gone. Oddly enough, that decline seemed to start right around the time CCP decided to introduce a measure to help nudge people into PC corps. What was it called? Oh yeah, NPC corp tax. So some folks rushed into PC corps while others spawned their tiny personal corps to avoid the tax. I don't begrudge the tax, I just hate what it did to the starting corps.
Why do I hate what it did? Because once you leave a starter corp, you can never return to it. You just go to the other NPC corps. And honestly, that is where the main issue lies in my eyes. You've reduced the number of active, social players in the starter corp without putting in something to help increase the beginner's ability to socialize. I would recommend implementing an NPC racial alliance channel that is automatically joined by all NPC corps of that race or start dumping folks back into the starter corps when they leave their PC corps. Stop separating the active, older players from the new folks.
Also, that 40% that aren't station alts are still interacting. They are buying, selling, scamming, being scammed, hauling, being ganked, and etc. Very little that anyone does in EvE doesn't have an impact, no matter how small. Every time they undock, they are interacting, just by making themselves a target. Just because they aren't interacting the way you want them to, in a way that is directly visible to you, doesn't mean they haven't contributed to your experience in some small measure, directly or indirectly. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 06:12:31 -
[458] - Quote
Tregod wrote:Why do I hate what it did? Because once you leave a starter corp, you can never return to it. You just go to the other NPC corps. And honestly, that is where the main issue lies in my eyes. You've reduced the number of active, social players in the starter corp without putting in something to help increase the beginner's ability to socialize. I would recommend implementing an NPC racial alliance channel that is automatically joined by all NPC corps of that race or start dumping folks back into the starter corps when they leave their PC corps. Stop separating the active, older players from the new folks.
I once wrote up a long post on this theme and then didn't post it once I realized it would be trolled to hell.
I understand CCP's desire to drive new players out of the NPC corps based on their player retention statistics. But as the NPE stands, the first "community" a new player is introduced to are their NPC corpmates, and the present situation has really only ensured that this community is made up of the people least able to help them. (With exceptions, obviously.) |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
49398
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Posted - 2015.03.18 06:32:17 -
[459] - Quote
I agree 100% with what Tregod posted above.
I've been asked lot's of times why I still remain in the NPC Starter Corp.
My answer use to be Freedom ............. Freedom from taxes, freedom from subjugation and freedom from wars.
Freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I wanted to without having to report to another player or worry about the consequences of my actions affecting other members in corp. The cost of that freedom was no ability to own or access a POS or Outpost.
Eventually CCP listened to a very small but immensely loud group of players who didn't like the idea of not being able to legally target players in NPC Corps. CCP decided to implement the Tax thinking that would entice players to leave NPC Corps. Some players did leave and soon after forming their own 1 - 2 man player corp were quickly WarDec'd by larger griefer corps who were hot for easy killmails.
That alone pretty much caused players to become disgusted with the game and quit. It also removed any desire in others to leave NPC Corps. I remember back in the first few years of playing this game there use to be well over 600 members in RUN Corp. Corp chat was very active, mainly with Industrial characters and mission runners along with a few Explorers and some PvP / Ratters. There were Mining and Mission Ops as well as Low / Null Sec 'Noob Fleet' roams happening all the time. As an Explorer I would also set up Exploration Ops which usually consisted of 1/2 dozen members to run various Combat sites and expeditions.
However, over time as the game mechanics slowly changed to favor ganking, along with CCP's 'War On Bots', the member count decreased. Griefer / ganker corps placing alt 'Spy' characters into corp chat pretty much killed off any more ops happening. Now there's barely over 100 members in Corp and chat is pretty much dead.
So now when people ask me why I stay in NPC Starter Corp my answer is still Freedom .......... Freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want without having to report to another player or worry about the consequences of my actions affecting other members in corp.
Also I like to help out new players whenever I can, usually by answering their questions in chat and sometimes I'll give them ISK to cover the loss of their ship.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
233
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Posted - 2015.03.18 10:16:29 -
[460] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
I agree 100% with what Tregod posted above.
I've been asked lot's of times why I still remain in the NPC Starter Corp.
My answer use to be Freedom ............. Freedom from taxes, freedom from subjugation and freedom from wars.
So no taxes, no subjugation and no wars, that seems like a pretty big incentive alright. We can all see clearly why people stay in them. War dec shield, got ya
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I wanted to without having to report to another player or worry about the consequences of my actions affecting other members in corp. The cost of that freedom was no ability to own or access a POS or Outpost.
if you have an alt in a real corp you can have both, so not totally true.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
That alone pretty much caused players to become disgusted with the game and quit. It also removed any desire in others to leave NPC Corps. I remember back in the first few years of playing this game there use to be well over 600 members in RUN Corp. Corp chat was very active, mainly with Industrial characters and mission runners along with a few Explorers and some PvP / Ratters. There were Mining and Mission Ops as well as Low / Null Sec 'Noob Fleet' roams happening all the time. As an Explorer I would also set up Exploration Ops which usually consisted of 1/2 dozen members to run various Combat sites and expeditions.
Sounds like a normal corp to me, without the worry of a war dec. how can you see that as a fair system,, lol,,, honestly,,, very one sided,, join X corp and never worry about wars again. CanGÇÖt you see the problem with that ?
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
However, over time as the game mechanics slowly changed to favor ganking, along with CCP's 'War On Bots', the member count decreased. Griefer / ganker corps placing alt 'Spy' characters into corp chat pretty much killed off any more ops happening. Now there's barely over 100 members in Corp and chat is pretty much dead.
So youGÇÖre saying NPC corps are broke ? we know this,, but you guys donGÇÖt like the answer to fixing them.
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
So now when people ask me why I stay in NPC Starter Corp my answer is still Freedom .......... Freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want without having to report to another player or worry about the consequences of my actions affecting other members in corp.
Also I like to help out new players whenever I can, usually by answering their questions in chat and sometimes I'll give them ISK to cover the loss of their ship.
DMC
Wanting to be solo needs to be provided for, I totally get where you are coming from. But please understand that as they are, NPC corps are broke, well maybe not broke, but not working as intended that's for sure.
Fair play to you for helping new guys out, I like to see people be part of things in EVE.
But man, I really donGÇÖt get the whole,, i donGÇÖt want to be a part of a group, but i want to be a part of a group without being a part of a group.
It really sounds like, you want to be in a corp that canGÇÖt be war decGÇÖd.
War decGÇÖs seem to be the issue. IGÇÖm seeing lots saying the current system is crap.
IGÇÖm not a huge fan of it, but itGÇÖs a part of the game you canGÇÖt remove. It needs some love from the devs.
but again,, you guys won't like the answer.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
135
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Posted - 2015.03.18 10:48:40 -
[461] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:My experience with players who stay in NPC corps points me toward believing that most of them fall into two categories.
1: the "I'm a strong independent capsuleer who don't need no alliance" type. Not much can be done to change these minds, from what I have seen.
2: the guys who are intimidated by Eve, not realizing that there are solid, reliable corps who specialize in dragging the new player experience out back, and shooting it in the head while the new player gets showered in more money than they will know what to do with for several months.
1. "I don't want to take orders from some slumlord, better go alone."
2. The gullible type, who is easy to trick into goon newbie farm.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
943
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Posted - 2015.03.18 11:48:13 -
[462] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:My experience with players who stay in NPC corps points me toward believing that most of them fall into two categories.
1: the "I'm a strong independent capsuleer who don't need no alliance" type. Not much can be done to change these minds, from what I have seen.
2: the guys who are intimidated by Eve, not realizing that there are solid, reliable corps who specialize in dragging the new player experience out back, and shooting it in the head while the new player gets showered in more money than they will know what to do with for several months. 1. "I don't want to take orders from some slumlord, better go alone." 2. The gullible type, who is easy to trick into goon newbie farm.
So pretty much exactly what I said, but with your strange, jaded, and amusingly incorrect views slopped on top of it. I have to ask though, since you brought up "Goon newbie farm"; what exactly do you imagine is the newbee (and snoobee) experience? |
Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
23
|
Posted - 2015.03.18 11:55:19 -
[463] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
Sounds like a normal corp to me, without the worry of a war dec. how can you see that as a fair system,, lol,,, honestly,,, very one sided,, join X corp and never worry about wars again. CanGÇÖt you see the problem with that ?
You can't live your EVE life because some players -that try to avoid pvp- cannot be wardecced?
Do you know the limitations of an NPC corp?
From who's point of view are wardecs fair?
Only that pov has to be taken into consideration?
Why?
I think I know the answers, so don't talk about one sided, it's hypocritical. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
149
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Posted - 2015.03.18 17:13:04 -
[464] - Quote
I choose to play in that 40% solo group due to the actions and attitudes of the 10%.
But we all know that the 10% will never say that their actions targeting new players may play a part in retaining new players. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
70
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Posted - 2015.03.18 18:00:11 -
[465] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Sounds like a normal corp to me, without the worry of a war dec. how can you see that as a fair system,, lol,,, honestly,,, very one sided,, join X corp and never worry about wars again. CanGÇÖt you see the problem with that ?
Yes, in some ways - especially the ability to socialize - NPC corps are very similar to player corps. Which bolsters my belief that NPC corps don't cause players to leave, like some in this thread have put forward. Rather, the sorts of players in that 40% who end up quitting end up in NPC corps because of their play style, and would quit anyway, I think, if they were in player corps.
Quote:So youGÇÖre saying NPC corps are broke ? we know this,, but you guys donGÇÖt like the answer to fixing them.
Perhaps I've missed some of the suggestions, but mostly I recall being presented as a "fix" is to make staying in an NPC corp so unpleasant, possibly by taxation, or limiting the kinds of ships that can be flown, that pilots are forced (or incented, depending on your terminology preference) into leaving. That is not what I would consider a "fix."
And for my part, I do not think NPC corps are broken. I suspect DeMichael Crimson doesn't either, although that's just a guess on my part, as the issues he describes such as ganking are applicable to player corps as well. The concept of spies/trolls in corp chat isn't unique to NPC corps of course, but it's a particular issue because those characters cannot be kicked from the channel or the oorp. CAS gets around this somewhat by having dedicated, moderated chat channels for specific activities. We've even had spies in fleet that has led to pipebombing, which again isn't an NPC corp specific issue, but that was an easy fix by adjusting our tactics and killing the smartbombing battleships on their second attempt, so it's all good. But none of that is indicative of a broken NPC corp system that needs fixing.
Quote:Wanting to be solo needs to be provided for, I totally get where you are coming from. But please understand that as they are, NPC corps are broke, well maybe not broke, but not working as intended that's for sure.
What are they intended for though, do you think? Some seem to want them to be a placeholder for a week or two for newbies before moving on to a player corp - some say large player corp, since a single-member player corp doesn't accomplish the goals of interaction that CCP seems to be indicating as the root cause o the 40% leaving after a while.
Quote:Fair play to you for helping new guys out, I like to see people be part of things in EVE.
But man, I really donGÇÖt get the whole,, i donGÇÖt want to be a part of a group, but i want to be a part of a group without being a part of a group.
It's... I'm not sure if I can explain it properly. I'm part of a group, but I get to choose how I contribute. Or not. I log on and immediately join fleet. I can ship spin in station, or mine, or mission, or rat, or explore, or scout, or join a roam, all as I see fit. There are some consequences to my actions, in the form of being socially ostracized, if I do something particularly disagreeable to the fleet. But mostly I get to play EVE the way I want to play, be it solo or part of a group, which I've done both of, and I get to do it with the support (when available) and advice (always) of my fleetmates. No paplinks, no required logon times, no CTAs.
This is possible with a player corp as well, of course, but that's highly dependent on the leadership of said corp, which doesn't exist in an NPC corp so we have to figure out how to get along on our own, rather than being told how to do it.
Quote:It really sounds like, you want to be in a corp that canGÇÖt be war decGÇÖd. War decGÇÖs seem to be the issue. IGÇÖm seeing lots saying the current system is crap. IGÇÖm not a huge fan of it, but itGÇÖs a part of the game you canGÇÖt remove. It needs some love from the devs. but again,, you guys won't like the answer.
I will admit, when I make a supply run to Jita or Dodi once or twice a month, it's nice being able to move items to the staging system in my Nereus while worrying only about ganking and not wardecs, or pay somewhat low fees to RedFrog to move larger items, since I assume such freight service costs would go way, way up if they were subject to decs.
But I live in null 99% of the time otherwise, where decs don't matter, so I never give decs a second thought. I don't know what their optimal role, if any, they should have
For my part, if the game mechanics last year when I fired up my EVE trial were such that was forced into joining a player corp in a week's time (or two or three...) I would likely have just quit as I wasn't willing to commit like that right away. Instead, I was able to dip my toe into different activities due to how some players in CAS operate, made friends, learned a lot, and am now committed. And CAS's leaderless nature allows me to remain committed.
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
234
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Posted - 2015.03.18 20:35:55 -
[466] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:
But I live in null 99% of the time otherwise, where decs don't matter, so I never give decs a second thought. I don't know what their optimal role, if any, they should have
For my part, if the game mechanics last year when I fired up my EVE trial were such that was forced into joining a player corp in a week's time (or two or three...) I would likely have just quit as I wasn't willing to commit like that right away. Instead, I was able to dip my toe into different activities due to how some players in CAS operate, made friends, learned a lot, and am now committed. And CAS's leaderless nature allows me to remain committed.
glad ya stuck around, it's an amazing game. couldn't quote everything above so i just grabbed the last bit.
you make some good points, but you must agree that being able to use a corp to avoid wars is an issue.
in null and low sec wars mean feck all, but kinda needed and are used to attack null sec alliances in high sec.
we just moved back to hi sec after more than 3 years in null so i get the whole war decs ,,, whatever,,,, attitude towards them.
it's like,, why would i give a shite about a war dec when we're used to everything trying to kill us,, lol
i've thought about it many times over the years, how do we hold onto players, how do we keep new guys interested.
it's a complicated problem that i don't think has an easy answer.
for you it was being able to do what you wanted when you wanted and funny enough for me also, but both of us wanting to go in totally different directions.
which is what makes EVE the beast she is and i'm sure it's what keeps us here.
so hs anything really changed? people come and go,, some stick some don't
I don't think NPC corps will continue as they are and the same goes for war decs, CCP loves to change shite and we can all stick a billion isk on that one as a sure bet.
over the top must do measures are not the answer and never will be in EVE so having to join a real corp after so long is a no go in my books.
but i also think never leaving NPC is a no go, there must be somewhere in the middle where this issue can be resolved.
the only fix may be the where a player is forced out after so many months, if it's done any other way, like say realted to pilot stats, we all know people will manipulate them.
it's a sticky one isn't it,,,
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
49428
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Posted - 2015.03.19 00:01:11 -
[467] - Quote
Have to say I agree with Eli Stan. He definitely understands what I was talking about.
NPC Corps are not broken. Granted we can't be WarDec'd but on the other hand we also can't WarDec other corps. Being exempt from that comes with a price. As I said earlier, NPC Corp members can't own or access POS / Outposts. Also before Crimewatch we couldn't come to the defense of fellow members under attack or seek retribution on their behalf.
I will say that over the years I've seen a few Player Corps I would have loved RUN Corp to WarDec. You may think that's a joke but I'm not kidding. Back when we had well over 600 members I could easily see us doing the ultimate blob, a couple hundred 'Noob' members stomping on a couple of war targets all at the same time. That would definitely get the job done. Sure when we're alone we're nothing more than an insect, something that's easily swatted away but together we'd be like an angry swarm of Wasp's causing death by a thousand stings.
Don't know why Player Corps are so dead set against NPC Corps. Obviously there's a lot of other Player Corps available for WarDec. It's not like the WarDec exemption is keeping members of NPC Corps safe in low / null sec space. It definitely doesn't keep them safe from high sec gankers. The only reason I can think Player Corps want the ability to WarDec NPC Corps is due to easy killmails and the NPC Corp has no Alliance backing. Course since we are NPC Corp we should at least have the backing of Minmatar Republic NPC's in high sec as our Alliance backing.
Anyway, after 7 years of playing this game I have no intention of ever leaving NPC Corp. I like where I'm at and what I'm doing in the game. Since this game is a sandbox I have the right to play it as I see fit. If CCP starts forcing players to play this game a certain way then it's no longer a sandbox. Removing the players right to choose is not good for the game. Forcing players to leave NPC Corp will only cause more people to quit.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12173
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Posted - 2015.03.19 00:12:34 -
[468] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Granted we can't be WarDec'd but on the other hand we also can't WarDec other corps. Being exempt from that comes with a price. As I said earlier, NPC Corp members can't own or access POS / Outposts.
That's your defense? Really? That you get the dubious benefit of not being able to use the single most broken game mechanic in MMO history?
Yeah, that's some penalty all right, in exchange for total immunity to wardecs thereby eliminating half the risk left in highsec. That totally sounds fair to me, a shining example of game balance and all that.
Quote:
Don't know why Player Corps are so dead set against NPC Corps.
Because the playstyles that are enabled by the existing NPC corp mechanics are bad for the game. They damage player retention, that's not even up for argument anymore, it's a fact.
If the game wants to obtain better retention, the sacred cow you're clinging to will have to be addressed eventually.
Quote: Since this game is a sandbox I have the right to play it as I see fit. If CCP starts forcing players to play this game a certain way then it's no longer a sandbox. Removing the players right to choose is not good for the game. Forcing players to leave NPC Corp will only cause more people to quit.
You're already causing people to quit by boring them to death. CCP might as well do something about it. People like you have been arguing for stripping away player choice when it benefits you, and now that philosophy gets to bite you in the ass.
The time is coming when you lot will have to pay the piper.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2015.03.19 01:22:14 -
[469] - Quote
Does everyone assume that we are in NPC corps to avoid war decs? Because that isn't really something I think about. Since I have never been in a player corp I don't have any experience with them. Good or bad. Though I have no doubt there are lots of alts in the NPC corps that are war dec dodgers. Though it will just be the alts in CAS. The rest will be in the Scope or the other secondary bloodline corps.
Are they really that big a deal? I plan on moving to null soon anyway. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
49432
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Posted - 2015.03.19 02:07:12 -
[470] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
That's your defense? Really? That you get the dubious benefit of not being able to use the single most broken game mechanic in MMO history?
Yeah, that's some penalty all right, in exchange for total immunity to wardecs thereby eliminating half the risk left in highsec. That totally sounds fair to me, a shining example of game balance and all that.
Heh, the single most broken game mechanic in this game is allowing players in corps like yours to do high sec ganking indefinitely with impunity.
By the way, it's lucky thing NPC Corps are exempt from WarDec cuz corps like yours would probably be eliminated very quickly.
Quote:
Because the playstyles that are enabled by the existing NPC corp mechanics are bad for the game. They damage player retention, that's not even up for argument anymore, it's a fact.
If the game wants to obtain better retention, the sacred cow you're clinging to will have to be addressed eventually.
What's damaging player retention in this game are people like you and the corp you belong to, constantly ganking miners and industrials in high sec and then go sit in station and use Security Tags while waiting for the criminal flag to expire.
Quote:
You're already causing people to quit by boring them to death. CCP might as well do something about it. People like you have been arguing for stripping away player choice when it benefits you, and now that philosophy gets to bite you in the ass.
The time is coming when you lot will have to pay the piper.
The only one that's boring people here is you. As for making people quit, we've already established that it's people in corps like yours. If CCP really wants to retain players, then CCP needs to bring back long term consequences for actions taken in game. CCP definitely needs to stop listening to people like you who try to corral everyone into a single minded version of how this game should be played.. .
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
73
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Posted - 2015.03.19 02:15:28 -
[471] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Because the playstyles that are enabled by the existing NPC corp mechanics are bad for the game. They damage player retention, that's not even up for argument anymore, it's a fact.
Nope, not at all a fact. Let's go back and look at what CCP said, from Sibyyl's post:
- 40% move into "a very isolated playstyle, mining and/or missioning and they stay pretty much to themselves. They don't trade very much, they don't engage in a very diverse range of activities". These players are involved in "theme park" activities, "sticking to missions and leveling up their raven" (CCP's own words). CCP "can see very clearly" that their NPE directs players in this direction. For "many of them that's not a good fit and they end up leaving"
Nowhere in that statement is a cause of player isolation identified. Nor are NPC corps mentioned whatsoever. NPC corps can be very social. Player corps can be very isolated.
The key aspects of "NPC corp mechanics" are:
- No war decs.
- No control tower or SOV ownership.
- No CEO or other corp roles, including no ability to kick a toon from the corp.
- No corp wallet or similar asset management.
Did I miss any? I don't see how any of the above can be "causing people to quit by boring them to death." None of them imply isolation or keeping to one's self.
Actually, CCP does point out a possible cause for the lack of retention of the 40% - the NPE. I know that my experience with the NPE, while it taught me a few of the basics, also directed me towards the solo activities of mining and missioning. Their setup with Dagan does try to get newbies to work together in order to bring enough DPS - but coming from never having played an MMO before, I didn't think to approach it that way and took it as a challenge to overcome just like I would in a single-player game. Which I did. So Dagan alone isn't enough to get it done. Something that is more clearly along the lines of "you need to fleet up with somebody else in order to accomplish this next goal" might work. Leverage EVE Voice too, even though it's somewhat unreliable.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12173
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Posted - 2015.03.19 02:19:13 -
[472] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Heh, the single most broken game mechanic in this game is allowing players in corps like yours to do high sec ganking indefinitely with impunity.
No, it's still the POS system. There really isn't anything in contemporary gaming that compares with just how awful the POS system is.
Quote:
What's damaging player retention in this game are people like you and the corp you belong to, constantly ganking miners and industrials in high sec and then go sit in station and use Security Tags while waiting for the criminal flag to expire.
Literally, nope.
You people need to find a different lie, I'm afraid.
Quote:
The only one that's boring people here is you. As for making people quit, we've already established that it's people in corps like yours.
See the above. Better luck next time, carebear.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12173
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Posted - 2015.03.19 02:21:32 -
[473] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:
Nowhere in that statement is a cause of player isolation identified. *snipped rant*
Didn't even read what you quoted, did you?
The playstyles enabled by NPC corps are bad for the game. Go ahead and take another crack at it, I'll wait.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
90
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Posted - 2015.03.19 02:49:20 -
[474] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:the single most broken game mechanic in MMO history?
So you signed up for the war-dec arm of CODE, to play the single most broken game mechanic in MMO history. Not exactly the best line on a resume. We can just take a leaf from the Book of Goon: if it aint working, you are doing it wrong.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Because the playstyles that are enabled by the existing NPC corp mechanics are bad for the game. They damage player retention, that's not even up for argument anymore, it's a fact. A decent attempt at Fallacy. The "playstyle" has no relation to the player retention indicated by CCP. The key point made by CCP related to whether or not a new player makes a social connection. You can have social connection without being in a player run corporation.
Now you, yourself have joined CODE not because you wanted more risk, but because you made a social connection to them. It is the same reason players elect to leave NPC not because they want more risk, but they make that connection.
Thus the opposite is true; players remain with NPC for a lack of social connection.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:People like you have been arguing for stripping away player choice when it benefits you, and now that philosophy gets to bite you in the ass. How is the choice to remain a NPC, robbing the choice of someone else to leave it?
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:The time is coming when you lot will have to pay the piper. Sadly no, Eve will not suddenly be led to reason. The May Queen's Spring Cleaning does not include forcing players into corps, removing L4 & Incurions or veldspar only belts. Or any of the trolling tripe trotted out by the Svengali of High-sec.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12173
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Posted - 2015.03.19 02:57:11 -
[475] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:People like you have been arguing for stripping away player choice when it benefits you, and now that philosophy gets to bite you in the ass. How is the choice to remain a NPC, robbing the choice of someone else to leave it?
Now that is some impressive effort to miss the point.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1370
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Posted - 2015.03.19 03:01:29 -
[476] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
Nowhere in that statement is a cause of player isolation identified. *snipped rant*
Didn't even read what you quoted, did you? The playstyles enabled by NPC corps are bad for the game. Go ahead and take another crack at it, I'll wait.
No playstyle is enabled by NPC corps. NPC corps actually reduce the ability to participate in certain playstyles, but nothing is enabled in an NPC corp that isn't enabled otherwise. |
Valkin Mordirc
798
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Posted - 2015.03.19 05:07:51 -
[477] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
Nowhere in that statement is a cause of player isolation identified. *snipped rant*
Didn't even read what you quoted, did you? The playstyles enabled by NPC corps are bad for the game. Go ahead and take another crack at it, I'll wait. No playstyle is enabled by NPC corps. NPC corps actually reduce the ability to participate in certain playstyles, but nothing is enabled in an NPC corp that isn't enabled otherwise.
You partly right. Though Kaarous has a point.
Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 05:42:12 -
[478] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.
I don't see how you can turn a casual player into a hardcore player. And/or why do you, or the OP care to do it.
No idea what do you mean by consequence free... hauling alts that can't be warddeced? All the coloured Frogs function on that principle and that's why they're reliable. Do you feel like any player should respond to a higher authority? Should everything be under the control(l) of a donut or another? Isn't that exactly an attempt of playing safe that everybody disses it but avidly practices?
Curious about the issues you will detail later. |
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 06:26:57 -
[479] - Quote
I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.
They may increase taxes or try to create some new content that requires being in a corp to try to entice people into player corps but I don't see them removing them altogether any time soon.
May as well try to get them to remove missions, mining, and incursions too while you are at it. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12173
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 07:09:59 -
[480] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.
I don't really see where in this thread I've suggested that NPC corps be removed.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
|
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Valkin Mordirc
799
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 07:16:45 -
[481] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.
I don't see how you can turn a casual player into a hardcore player. And/or why do you, or the OP care to do it. No idea what do you mean by consequence free... hauling alts that can't be warddeced? All the coloured Frogs function on that principle and that's why they're reliable. Do you feel like any player should respond to a higher authority? Should everything be under the control(l) of a donut or another? Isn't that exactly an attempt of playing safe that everybody disses it but avidly practices? Curious about the issues you will detail later.
EVE has always from my perspective, been a game that consequence are a real thing. I'm not the only one, Forum Alts, are a great example of other players doing there best to avoid it.
I've never said I want casual players out of EVE, I don't mind that 40% or so of EVE newbro's take the casual path and mission/mine or whatever solo on there free time. That doesn't bother me.
One of the things that I personally, have a problem with is that NPC corps allow players to operate with only fear of being ganked, in Highsec. Avoiding these things, like wardec, ganks, and the such should avoided by mean of, Diplo's, Payment's, Brute Force, actual effort.
However NPC corps allows player to avoid Wardecs, allows people to basically dance around like a ninny with out the worry about risk. Getting Wardec by other corp is a risk you take with a player corp.
Avoiding Risk is fine, just as long as you put effort into it.
NPC corps being Wardec free take away that risk.
However NPC corps should not be Wardec, that would be silly, I'm not saying NPC corps SHOULD be wardec-able? Wardecable? I do think that people using NPC as a Wardec shield is a lazy way to get around a mechanic in the game. If you want to avoid Wardecs, you should Pay the Piper, Beat the **** out of the Piper or make friends with the Piper.
I believe that NPC along with other things I've said regarding NPE experiences inside them, allow for stagnation to occur of the player.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Warp to Cyno.
4321
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 07:17:38 -
[482] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.
I don't really see where in this thread I've suggested that NPC corps be removed.
to be fair, it was suggested by someone. i wonder who it was?
¦âuos ¦¥qo-¦u s+É-ì -ç-¦ |
Thora Zhubilai
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 10:11:27 -
[483] - Quote
"Why do players stay in npc corps?"
Good question!
Also good is the question: "why shall players join a player corps?
To answer these questions is not easy.
100 (or 1000) peoples will have 100 different reasons.
To force players into Player Corps cannot be the solution.
Make player corps more attractive for newbies is the point, but how?
What can CCP do?
What can the older Players do?
Personally, I think that itGÇÖs up to the (Older) player to better introduce newbies to the game.
Help them to find FRIENDLY corps GǪand more will stay.
Help them to learn how to react by wardeccs (Fight if possible or move to another place for some time....)
Why do I play EVE?
There are few reasons: it is complex, it is harsh and,... thatGÇÖs the most important (for me) I can do much more than just Pew Pew.
I hate Pew Pew, but I accept it as part of the game. IGÇÖm more fixed on industries. Yes IGÇÖm a Warmonger. I sell you the Gun you need to blow up my hauler or freighterGǪhahaha.
Other points: Wardeccs!...and ganking!
WhatGÇÖs the problem with?...Why do so many GÇ£lazyGÇ¥ people complain about?...
Not Wardeccs, not ganking are the problemsGǪ(Ok for a newbie they are problem)
but what after few month playing? Everyone should have learned to act with!!!!
Hi all!
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 10:16:28 -
[484] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:I don't really see CCP removing the NPC corps so CODE terrorist guy and the others are flailing about pointlessly.
I don't really see where in this thread I've suggested that NPC corps be removed. to be fair, it was suggested by someone. i wonder who it was? ¦âuos ¦¥qo-¦u s+É-ì -ç-¦
OK I'll bite. When did I say that? |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
234
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 11:45:51 -
[485] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:The key aspects of "NPC corp mechanics" are:
- No war decs.
- No control tower or SOV ownership.
- No CEO or other corp roles, including no ability to kick a toon from the corp.
- No corp wallet or similar asset management.
nah sorry.
The key aspect of "NPC corp mechanics" are really down to one thing,,,,, No wars
everything else you can work around and is worked around.
i don't pretend to know the answers to this issue. but it does need to be dealt with.
|
Scira Crimson
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 12:48:15 -
[486] - Quote
How can any wardec argument be relevant as you can also make a 1 man corp?
Imo the NPC Corp is just another (unnessary) noob trap on top of tons of extremly beginner unfriendly game mechanics.
NPC corps should have 0% tax. Thats all.
(You can also set up a 1 man corp for 1 mio ISK, losing player interaction->chat)
Any game is about meaningful player decisions, but:
(beginner) chat vs 11% tax
is just poor gamedesign.
Personally Id like to be in the beginner corp so maybe I find people who are new and create a corp with them, but I chose to stay in a 1 man Corp, because its more reasonable ...
Maybe I should amke 20 alts and talk with them. This is what this game is about... Extremly anti beginner and antisocial |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Warp to Cyno.
4324
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 14:28:28 -
[487] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:OK I'll bite. When did I say that?
top of page eighteen. my point is that it easy to argue against a position that hasn't been voiced, a position that was designed to be argued against, a position that does not actually exist |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23990
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 14:53:34 -
[488] - Quote
If you think aggression (on its own) in a PVP game is broken, then I think a coop server in a different game would be better suited for you. I've yet to see anyone enunciate what exactly is broken about the wardeccing mechanic itself. Everyone gets hung up on station camping which is popular in hisec, lowsec, nullsec, WH. Are we fixing station camping or is there actual feedback about hisec aggression rules specific to wardecs?
The wardec immunity rut is deep enough that players will get stuck in NPC Corps and exclude themselves from most of the activities in the game. People arguing against wardecs forget that all it does is allow lowsec style aggression in hisec. Again, are you arguing about station camping or aggression rules?
Total immunity to wardecs is nice and cozy and safe. Cozy, safe people also don't feel like taking any risks or trying out new things. The NPC corp rut is a perfect recipe for isolation, and eventually quitting the game for 40-90% of players out there. The discussion isn't about why you personally love your NPC corp. That's a topic for a diary. This was about 90% of starting EVE players.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 14:59:11 -
[489] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Niobe Song wrote:OK I'll bite. When did I say that? top of page eighteen. my point is that it's easy to argue against a position that hasn't been voiced, a position that was designed to be argued against, a position that does not actually exist
Yep, the "straw-man" argument. It's been going on from both sides, though. :)
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:10:09 -
[490] - Quote
So I had a thought, which leads to some questions for those who think war decs in highsec are important - is it actuality of a dec that's important, or is it just the possibility of one that matters? The are plenty of player corps not currently subject to a war right now, I bet. Is that an issue? Which leads me to my thought - what if CONCORD were removed from the game entirely? If safe and cozy makes players bored and quit, and CONCORD exists pretty much only to make highsec safe and cozy, isn't the logical conclusion that CONCORD is bad for player retention and the game overall? (I'd say leave CONCORD in the contellations with starter systems, so that newbies aren't slaughtered upon their first undock.)
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23992
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:20:12 -
[491] - Quote
I think Thera is a good lesson in why removing CONCORD needs to be better thought out from a trade and market point of view.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:29:14 -
[492] - Quote
Alternatively, since I belive that the economy is vitally important to the gameplay of EVE and the movement of goods is vitally important to the economy, I'm intrigued by the idea of CONCORD "protecting" (or rather, avenging) only those ships that do not have any offensive modules or drones fitted whatsoever, combined with eliminating the war system. That way miners and haulers and industrialists moving goods to Jita can keep our economy going, but mission runners and Incursion runners and gankers are fair game as content, inventing them to team up more. (It's understood te gankers team up already.) This also allows for the creation of a true player-based police force by those wishing to be more effective white knights, and organized crime style protection rackets... |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2237
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:32:13 -
[493] - Quote
Personally, for me, I use NPC corps to dodge wardecs. I only ever actually had to do it once and I am not even sure if it worked, but that's what I think they are there for. If I were to play all on my own, I'd probably still like all the hangar stuff and the wallet divisions and what not, that make inventory management a lot easier.
(Hint: It sucks but that's not the point!) |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
135
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:40:34 -
[494] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:If you think aggression (on its own) in a PVP game is broken, then I think a coop server in a different game would be better suited for you. I've yet to see anyone enunciate what exactly is broken about the wardeccing mechanic itself. Everyone gets hung up on station camping which is popular in hisec, lowsec, nullsec, WH. Are we fixing station camping or is there actual feedback about hisec aggression rules specific to wardecs?
As been stated bazillion of times in this very thread, eve is NOT a PvP game. It's a sandbox game that has some boring PvP in it.
This invalidates the rest of this point.
What exactly broken about war decs? Grief deccing, total lack of sane defender options aside dodging, joke of a cost to completely disable any activity which isn't grief deccing itself, and total invulnerability of a grief deccer.
Sibyyl wrote:The wardec immunity rut is deep enough that players will get stuck in NPC Corps and exclude themselves from most of the activities in the game. People arguing against wardecs forget that all it does is allow lowsec style aggression in hisec. Again, are you arguing about station camping or aggression rules?
First, you're trying hard at ignorance again - it does not allow lowsec style aggression, it allows nullsec/sh style aggression, because even lowsec has consequences for aggression, which war decs and grief decs lack.
Secondly, you openly admit that not just dodging, but staying in NPC corps is done by grief decs (war decs don't do that, only grief decs do). Which is exactly the problem - grief decs in current form need to go.
Next, please tell me, which activities exactly NPC corp members are excluded from? They don't bore themselves with combat peeveepee stupidity? They do. They don't mine? They do. They don't build? They do. They don't rat? They do. They don't contest sov? Yes, they don't. Hardly most of the activities in the game.
Sibyyl wrote:Total immunity to wardecs is nice and cozy and safe. Cozy, safe people also don't feel like taking any risks or trying out new things. The NPC corp rut is a perfect recipe for isolation, and eventually quitting the game for 40-90% of players out there. The discussion isn't about why you personally love your NPC corp. That's a topic for a diary. This was about 90% of starting EVE players.
If player likes isolation, forcing him out is negative. If player doesn't like isolation, he can give it a spin, nobody forces him to stay in NPC corp. If there is too much risk outside, it's a problem of too much risk outside, not of NPC corps.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1567
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:41:11 -
[495] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
War decGÇÖs seem to be the issue. IGÇÖm seeing lots saying the current system is crap.
IGÇÖm not a huge fan of it, but itGÇÖs a part of the game you canGÇÖt remove.
I'm just curious where you come from?
Drones on Dreadnoughts was part of the game? They were removed at some point.
Assisting of Fighters to other pilots/ships was part of the game? It was removed.
Learning skills was part of the game? They were removed.
Thing XXX is part of the game? It will be removed if CCP decides so.
Yes, 'wardecs provide risk, blah-blah-blah'. But when CCP decides to remove the thing it gets removed anyway.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8000
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:43:50 -
[496] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Total immunity to wardecs is nice and cozy and safe.
Yeah..but it's not, is it?
NPC corp miners getting ganked all the time. Haulers in NPC corps getting ganked all the time. Builders in NPC corps getting screwed due to mechanics changes ( or another player does some market manipulation) when the stuff they just spent a month building becomes worthless. Traders in NPC corps being at the wrong end of a trade war. Mission runners in NPC corps having their mission objectives stolen. Just plain folk in NPC corps being scammed for all their ISK.
The list goes on but I think you see what I'm saying. It's simply not that 'cozy and safe'.
So as much a really small, really verbal subset of PVP people like to whine about wardec avoidance, it's just not really a thing. There is danger at every turn for those in NPC corps. Plenty of ways to make them miserable without crying to force them into a barrel because you are too lazy to actually make an effort for your kills.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
143
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:44:03 -
[497] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
War decGÇÖs seem to be the issue. IGÇÖm seeing lots saying the current system is crap.
IGÇÖm not a huge fan of it, but itGÇÖs a part of the game you canGÇÖt remove.
I'm just curious where you come from? Drones on Dreadnoughts was part of the game? They were removed at some point. Assisting of Fighters to other pilots/ships was part of the game? It was removed. Learning skills was part of the game? They were removed. Thing XXX is part of the game? It will be removed if CCP decides so. Yes, 'wardecs provide risk, blah-blah-blah'. But when CCP decides to remove the thing it gets removed anyway.
... and constantly changing the goal posts is not a great thing. Repaint them, widen the posts themselves, make them shiney, or not shiney, ... but I wish they'd quit moving them.
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
|
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 15:46:59 -
[498] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.
I don't see how you can turn a casual player into a hardcore player. And/or why do you, or the OP care to do it. No idea what do you mean by consequence free... hauling alts that can't be warddeced? All the coloured Frogs function on that principle and that's why they're reliable. Do you feel like any player should respond to a higher authority? Should everything be under the control(l) of a donut or another? Isn't that exactly an attempt of playing safe that everybody disses it but avidly practices? Curious about the issues you will detail later. EVE has always from my perspective, been a game that consequence are a real thing. I'm not the only one, Forum Alts, are a great example of other players doing there best to avoid it. I've never said I want casual players out of EVE, I don't mind that 40% or so of EVE newbro's take the casual path and mission/mine or whatever solo on there free time. That doesn't bother me. One of the things that I personally, have a problem with is that NPC corps allow players to operate with only fear of being ganked, in Highsec. Avoiding these things, like wardec, ganks, and the such should avoided by mean of, Diplo's, Payment's, Brute Force, actual effort. However NPC corps allows player to avoid Wardecs, allows people to basically dance around like a ninny with out the worry about risk. Getting Wardec by other corp is a risk you take with a player corp. Avoiding Risk is fine, just as long as you put effort into it. NPC corps being Wardec free take away that risk. However NPC corps should not be Wardec, that would be silly, I'm not saying NPC corps SHOULD be wardec-able? Wardecable? I do think that people using NPC as a Wardec shield is a lazy way to get around a mechanic in the game. If you want to avoid Wardecs, you should Pay the Piper, Beat the **** out of the Piper or make friends with the Piper. I believe that NPC along with other things I've said regarding NPE experiences inside them, allow for stagnation to occur of the player.
So what is really bothering you is you can't wardec because NPC corp members are as gankable as anybody else is in high sec. And that is exactly what wardecs are for high sec, a pretext to gank and play station games in high sec without being Concordokken. The real name of this thread should be "OHHH Y U NO LET ME WARDEC EVERBODY?". Perhaps you should start a thread requiring the need for a casus belli to wardec, a mechanic similar with suspect/engagement timers. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
136
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 17:07:48 -
[499] - Quote
"it's a sandbox game." (C) CCP Seagull, on fanfest stream right now.
Any more comments about "PvP game" are going to sound really stupid after this.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Leannor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
143
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 17:11:13 -
[500] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:"it's a sandbox game." (C) CCP Seagull, on fanfest stream right now.
Any more comments about "PvP game" are going to sound really stupid after this.
would be good if they didn't keep changing the sand pit ..... ..... ....
"Lykouleon wrote:
STOP
TOUCHING
ICONIC
SHIP
PARTS"
|
|
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Serene Repose
2422
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 17:12:32 -
[501] - Quote
Leannor wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:"it's a sandbox game." (C) CCP Seagull, on fanfest stream right now.
Any more comments about "PvP game" are going to sound really stupid after this. would be good if they didn't keep changing the sand pit ..... ..... .... Cats using it for a litterbox leave quite an accumulation over time, no?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to type on your keyboard and remove all doubt.
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Pok Nibin
Filial Pariahs
613
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 17:14:00 -
[502] - Quote
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
You can't have fun in EVE without social contacts!
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6674
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 17:16:45 -
[503] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote: So what is really bothering you is you can't wardec, because, otherwise NPC corp members are as gankable as anybody else is in high sec. And that is exactly what wardecs are for high sec, a pretext to gank and play station games in high sec without being Concordokken. The real name of this thread should be "OHHH Y U NO LET ME WARDEC EVERBODY?". Perhaps you should start a thread requiring the need for a casus belli to wardec, a mechanic similar with suspect/engagement timers.
Ganking is pvp either of course...
nerf ganking...
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
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Reislier
86
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 17:23:37 -
[504] - Quote
simple solution for those wishing to tell others how to play.
please provide your credit card information so you can pay subscription for everyone else.
then you can tell how to play.
Be nice. If nice not work, be civil. If civil not work, beat with iron pipe till bloody and still.
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
236
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 17:39:09 -
[505] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
War decGÇÖs seem to be the issue. IGÇÖm seeing lots saying the current system is crap.
IGÇÖm not a huge fan of it, but itGÇÖs a part of the game you canGÇÖt remove.
I'm just curious where you come from?
Ireland |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
236
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 18:02:52 -
[506] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:"it's a sandbox game." (C) CCP Seagull, on fanfest stream right now.
Any more comments about "PvP game" are going to sound really stupid after this.
well i was never one for shutting up when told.
miners vs miners.
traders vs traders.
incursian fleets vs incursian fleets.
people fighting over sov..
not player vs player? lol
you might want to inform everyone on the server of this. i don't think they are aware.
EVE is a sandbox game based on Player vs player.
let's all hold hands sing songs build many many things and never fire another shot at eachother. hahaha,, i'm sorry, but the thoughts of it are hilarious. and the results would lead to the end of the game as we know it.
not PVP,,, fecking stupid thing to say,,, tell me,, did she say it wasn't a PVP game ? i dont think so.
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1567
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 18:53:09 -
[507] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:March rabbit wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
War decGÇÖs seem to be the issue. IGÇÖm seeing lots saying the current system is crap.
IGÇÖm not a huge fan of it, but itGÇÖs a part of the game you canGÇÖt remove.
I'm just curious where you come from? Ireland
yea, i've heard you people are not like others
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
80
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 19:08:25 -
[508] - Quote
Pok Nibin wrote:Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
You can't have fun in EVE without social contacts!
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Don't forget "Shhhhh, it's for your own good. You'll like it after a while."
Anyway, I'm engaging in a bit of reflective listening to see if I understand the argument properly:
1) Fact - CCP says 40% of new players end up in solo activities, and are at risk of getting bored and quitting.
2) Theory - Those players are in NPC corps in highsec.
3) Theory - That's because highsec without war decs is so safe and cozy that there's no need to band together with other players for protection.
4) Theory - Forcing / incenting those players into player corps will expose them to increased risk via war decs, leading to greater player cooperation for protection, leading to more socialization and higher player retention rates.
Is that about it? (I'm ignoring the possibility of an "I just want more targets to shoot in highsec" argument because if that's your thought all I have to say is HTFU and come to null.) (I'm also ignoring the possibility of a "Too much ISK is made in high for the level of risk" because my response to that is basically "Nerf highsec Incursions." Of course, Incursions are by design and application heavy in multi-player social interaction. FWIW, personally I'm not against highsec Incursions - I make plenty of ISK in null to suit my needs and don't feel the need to restrict somebody else's ability to make ISK.)
I'll throw out one more, that's not part of the above argument:
5) Fact - CCP says they realize the NPE directs newbies towards those solo activities.
Regarding the points:
#2) CCP hasn't, as far as I know, said anything about #2. Just that the players are mostly solo, which could also mean single-person corps. Without any facts to go on, I don't have much to say either way.
#3) Other people have mentioned ways in which highsec is not safe and cozy. But yes, the lack of war decs does mean it's slightly more safe than it is for player corps.
#4) Here's where I think the logi really falls apart. I think it's unlikely that many of the 40% playing solo at "level my Raven" will result in them, say, becoming CFC or TEST line members and thereby become committed, social EVE players. More likely, they'll each form their own one-person corp, continue like before, and simply dock up for the duration of wars. And possibly won't bother resubbing, since the wars prevent their style of play, however boring it might eventually be. So I think that getting the 40% out of NPC corps will simply cause those 40% to quit sooner than otherwise.
#5) Instead of messing with NPC corps, I think the game would be better served by CCP advocating social play more. Maybe advertise a curated list of NPSI fleets - Bombers Bar, Spectre Fleet, Agony roams, even CAS Combat Guild or other similar NPC-based fleets. NPSI fleets are a low-commitment, low-risk into to this sort of social gaming. It's what got me into EVE, and what has me coming back. Or a NPE Opportunity that can only be accomplished by being in a fleet of five or more players. (Dagan in the SoE arc attempts this, being so tanky that no single newbie is likely to have enough DPS to kill him, but not having had any MMO experience prior to EVE, I took it as a challenge like in single-player games and figured out how to kill him one my own. Op fail for promoting social play.) Advertise more about events like the current Fountain war, which might catch somebody's fancy and lead them to look for a fleet/corp to get involved with. CCP can even lead NPSI outings to such combat hotspots.
But no, making the 40%ers (of those of us in the 10% group who like remaining in their starter corp) join player corps, or form their own one-person corps, won't increase player retention, I think. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 20:14:24 -
[509] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
Nowhere in that statement is a cause of player isolation identified. *snipped rant*
Didn't even read what you quoted, did you? The playstyles enabled by NPC corps are bad for the game. Go ahead and take another crack at it, I'll wait. No playstyle is enabled by NPC corps. NPC corps actually reduce the ability to participate in certain playstyles, but nothing is enabled in an NPC corp that isn't enabled otherwise. You partly right. Though Kaarous has a point. Being able to operate close to consequence free, although not a play style, is an advantage that indirectly causes issues. I'm at work I can go into detail with that later, if want. I'm sure Kaarous if he has the time can explain how that doesn't really fit the Marketing that CCP presented for all these years is the first one that comes to my mind.
You statement only makes sense if wardecs are the only form of consequence. They are not, therefore "consequence free" play resulting from NPC corp membership is a lie. It should also be noted that marketing and intended play for every character/player are in no way that I can identify proposed or suggested as being intended to be the same. Some will follow the line of the marketing, others will not, and while being in NPC corps are more conducive to that, removing them won't remove the desire some have to not play according to the adds and supplant other ways of enjoying the game.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
136
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 22:20:08 -
[510] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Pok Nibin wrote:Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
You can't have fun in EVE without social contacts!
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you.
Come out of the NPC corps so we can war dec you. Don't forget "Shhhhh, it's for your own good. You'll like it after a while." Anyway, I'm engaging in a bit of reflective listening to see if I understand the argument properly: 1) Fact - CCP says 40% of new players end up in solo activities, and are at risk of getting bored and quitting. 2) Theory - Those players are in NPC corps in highsec. 3) Theory - That's because highsec without war decs is so safe and cozy that there's no need to band together with other players for protection. 4) Theory - Forcing / incenting those players into player corps will expose them to increased risk via war decs, leading to greater player cooperation for protection, leading to more socialization and higher player retention rates. Is that about it? (I'm ignoring the possibility of an "I just want more targets to shoot in highsec" argument because if that's your thought all I have to say is HTFU and come to null.) (I'm also ignoring the possibility of a "Too much ISK is made in high for the level of risk" because my response to that is basically "Nerf highsec Incursions." Of course, Incursions are by design and application heavy in multi-player social interaction. FWIW, personally I'm not against highsec Incursions - I make plenty of ISK in null to suit my needs and don't feel the need to restrict somebody else's ability to make ISK.) I'll throw out one more, that's not part of the above argument: 5) Fact - CCP says they realize the NPE directs newbies towards those solo activities. Regarding the points: #2) CCP hasn't, as far as I know, said anything about #2. Just that the players are mostly solo, which could also mean single-person corps. Without any facts to go on, I don't have much to say either way. #3) Other people have mentioned ways in which highsec is not safe and cozy. But yes, the lack of war decs does mean it's slightly more safe than it is for player corps. #4) Here's where I think the logi really falls apart. I think it's unlikely that many of the 40% playing solo at "level my Raven" will result in them, say, becoming CFC or TEST line members and thereby become committed, social EVE players. More likely, they'll each form their own one-person corp, continue like before, and simply dock up for the duration of wars. And possibly won't bother resubbing, since the wars prevent their style of play, however boring it might eventually be. So I think that getting the 40% out of NPC corps will simply cause those 40% to quit sooner than otherwise. #5) Instead of messing with NPC corps, I think the game would be better served by CCP advocating social play more. Maybe advertise a curated list of NPSI fleets - Bombers Bar, Spectre Fleet, Agony roams, even CAS Combat Guild or other similar NPC-based fleets. NPSI fleets are a low-commitment, low-risk into to this sort of social gaming. It's what got me into EVE, and what has me coming back. Or a NPE Opportunity that can only be accomplished by being in a fleet of five or more players. (Dagan in the SoE arc attempts this, being so tanky that no single newbie is likely to have enough DPS to kill him, but not having had any MMO experience prior to EVE, I took it as a challenge like in single-player games and figured out how to kill him one my own. Op fail for promoting social play.) Advertise more about events like the current Fountain war, which might catch somebody's fancy and lead them to look for a fleet/corp to get involved with. CCP can even lead NPSI outings to such combat hotspots. But no, making the 40%ers (of those of us in the 10% group who like remaining in their starter corp) join player corps, or form their own one-person corps, won't increase player retention, I think.
Banding together doesn't work, because eve combat pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon. Any silly attempt to pvp in your 30 mil SP loltoon would only entertain the god toon owners, unless you're brave and bring 10-30 10 mil SP toons to counter their SP advantage. SP, as a matter of fact, is the greatest force multiplier in eve and its inaccessibility is at the root of grief dec problem.
Any combat pvp fleet is just losing ships AND entertaining the god toon fleets at the same time. Taking any part in this is bad enough to drive multi-billionaires like me out of the game, not to mention newbie with his 20 million wallet. The nature of eve combat pvp is that if fight actually happens, it means the other party knows for sure they are going to sweep you with no losses, and taking part in that is just plain abuse. Roughly the same kind of abuse as taking orders you don't like is.
So, I'm going to draw the simple bottom line here: EVE has everything and more than everything to keep people who can live or like being abused by ultra-extreme SP-bias of combat pvp. It's virtually every other area of what people expect in a "space sim" where EVE is lacking. Solo activities do not make people quit, the reason is simple, if you get bored with A, you can always try B, and this is where it gets important, because trying B you get "BAMMMM YOU JUST HIT SP WALL BUDDY, COME BACK AND TRY ME IN A YEAR OR SO - (signed) YOUR DEAD B". And let's be honest, for an average player, a year is about 360 times more time than what he has a life plan for. God toons and specialized extra alts you pay for solve this, but not for newbros.
Real Bottom line: Combat pvp self-abuse junkies retention is fine, SP wall prevents every other professions retention.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34948
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 22:48:21 -
[511] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Total immunity to wardecs is nice and cozy and safe.
Yeah..but it's not, is it? NPC corp miners getting ganked all the time. Haulers in NPC corps getting ganked all the time.
What?
Even you show by your own estimates that ganking isn't a problem.
By your own numbers if 1 in 50 courier contracts fail and 75% of those are from faiing to meet the time and not from ganks, then in any 100 day period you are creating about 5000 courier contracts, of which only about 25 fail possibly due to a gank.
So even at worst case numbers by your own estimates, that's 0.5% of courier movements. It's hardly all the time. It's so small as to be very rarely.
Your estimates seem to match pretty well with the stats for Concord damage shown in the Fanfest keynote today. Ganking isn't a huge risk in eve.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34948
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 22:59:44 -
[512] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:"it's a sandbox game." (C) CCP Seagull, on fanfest stream right now.
Any more comments about "PvP game" are going to sound really stupid after this.
Or, you might just end up with egg on your face.
From the New Player FAQ:
5.3 SOME PLAYER JUST SHOT ME; IS THAT ALLOWED?
In EVE Online, any player may attack any other player if they choose to, no
matter where they happen to be. This is because EVE Online is essentially
a PvP (Player versus Player) game at its core.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive.
It can be both. A pvp based sandbox game.
pvp is not just shooting though. There are many more aspects to pvp than simply killing each other.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Commander Spurty
Dimension Door
We need wards.
1435
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 23:03:25 -
[513] - Quote
NPC corp players can not create capital ships or do anything hugely important in EVE>
WarDecs are dumb, just like their White Knights.
WarDecs inhibit people that like to blow stuff up leaving highsec and going to low / null.
End of story.
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12176
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 23:05:48 -
[514] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
You statement only makes sense if wardecs are the only form of consequence.
No, just fully half of it.
I think that's sufficiently significant as to warrant a discussion. Especially given just how very little is given up in exchange for the immunity to wardecs.
And I'm still curious as to when I claimed that NPC corps should be removed, like people keep saying.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 23:56:45 -
[515] - Quote
I wonder when, if ever, CCP will stop relying on volunteerism for their NPE. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
953
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 00:28:49 -
[516] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Banding together doesn't work, because eve combat pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon. Any silly attempt to pvp in your 30 mil SP loltoon would only entertain the god toon owners, unless you're brave and bring 10-30 10 mil SP toons to counter their SP advantage. SP, as a matter of fact, is the greatest force multiplier in eve and its inaccessibility is at the root of grief dec problem.
Any combat pvp fleet is just losing ships AND entertaining the god toon fleets at the same time. Taking any part in this is bad enough to drive multi-billionaires like me out of the game, not to mention newbie with his 20 million wallet. The nature of eve combat pvp is that if fight actually happens, it means the other party knows for sure they are going to sweep you with no losses, and taking part in that is just plain abuse. Roughly the same kind of abuse as taking orders you don't like is.
So, I'm going to draw the simple bottom line here: EVE has everything and more than everything to keep people who can live or like being abused by ultra-extreme SP-bias of combat pvp. It's virtually every other area of what people expect in a "space sim" where EVE is lacking. Solo activities do not make people quit, the reason is simple, if you get bored with A, you can always try B, and this is where it gets important, because trying B you get "BAMMMM YOU JUST HIT SP WALL BUDDY, COME BACK AND TRY ME IN A YEAR OR SO - (signed) YOUR DEAD B". And let's be honest, for an average player, a year is about 360 times more time than what he has a life plan for. God toons and specialized extra alts you pay for solve this, but not for newbros.
Real Bottom line: Combat pvp self-abuse junkies retention is fine, SP wall prevents every other professions retention.
I have said this before, and I'll say it again. Whenever a problem in Eve seems insurmountable, bring more people.
If banding together didn't work against the highest of high SP ~elitepvp~ groups, a lot of Eve's history never could have happened as it did.
I almost wish there was an accurate way to show average SP of pilots in a fleet, and then compare fleets against each other. I say almost, because the benefit would be smashing part of the quoted belief forever. However, the negative would be that it would just end up being one more "early warning system" to make people run and dock. |
Ciel993
Vision Partners
End of Natural Lifetime
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 00:32:33 -
[517] - Quote
beakerax wrote:I wonder when, if ever, CCP will stop relying on volunteerism for their NPE.
well.. one of the big advertisements use by CCP is "player-driven game"..
however, whether the players are a reliable bunch in term of improving NPE is a another thing |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23993
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 00:55:54 -
[518] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Total immunity to wardecs is nice and cozy and safe.
Yeah..but it's not, is it?
If it wasn't safe, then being in an NPC corp wouldn't be a universal choice for haulers, mission runners, incursion runners, and the like.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:01:17 -
[519] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
You statement only makes sense if wardecs are the only form of consequence.
No, just fully half of it. I think that's sufficiently significant as to warrant a discussion. Especially given just how very little is given up in exchange for the immunity to wardecs. And I'm still curious as to when I claimed that NPC corps should be removed, like people keep saying.
That comment wasn't towards you specifically so you shouldn't take it personally. Rather it was a line of thought intended to point out the folly of the poster who 1) tried to establish the idea of marketed play as universally intended play and 2) show that even removing NPC corps, the most extreme option in eliminating any perceived influence, still doesn't create the desired benefit.
That wasn't to suggest any course of action was you goal or idea.
To the idea that wardecs are half of consequence as a whole seems lacking in my view in part due to their complete inability to function against a currently occurring offensive act. the 24 hour timer does nothing for immediate retaliation. The only other targets it leaves are those of opportunity.
The argument can be made that they provide a certain level of policing, but anyone who would draw decs of that nature will likely ensure their mouthpiece and game play are sufficiently separate to not effect one another. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:06:44 -
[520] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Total immunity to wardecs is nice and cozy and safe.
Yeah..but it's not, is it? If it wasn't safe, then being in an NPC corp wouldn't be a universal choice for haulers, mission runners, incursion runners, and the like.
Since it isn't a universal choice for 2 of the 3 professions you mention can we then assume your statement is false? |
|
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Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23993
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:09:34 -
[521] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:As been stated bazillion of times in this very thread, eve is NOT a PvP game. It's a sandbox game that has some boring PvP in it.
My point is not that EVE is 100% PVP. It is a misinterpretation of what I'm saying. I am saying that nowhere in EVE is PVP a choice. This makes PVP a universally present element in the game.
Why are we talking about it, especially in the context of NPC corps? Because there is a significant contingent of folks, all of whom are concentrated in hisec, who don't seem to understand that point. All aggression in the game, that does not utilize exploits, is 100% within the EULA and you labeling something as "griefing" seems to be deliberate double talk.
You may find PVP to be boring, and that is completely your right. But PVP will come and wreck your ship and send you back to your station without your consent. Even though you may not care about PVP at all, it will touch your game and it will affect you. In that sense, EVE gives the "right of way" to PVP. Some people short circuit that by saying EVE is a PVP game.
Don't believe me? Watch the "This is EVE" trailer and tell me what constitutes 90% of the content in that video.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
|
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
23993
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:14:15 -
[522] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
If it wasn't safe, then being in an NPC corp wouldn't be a universal choice for haulers, mission runners, incursion runners, and the like.
Since it isn't a universal choice for 2 of the 3 professions you mention can we then assume your statement is false?
Feel free to specify what sort of corps you think they belong to while operating primarily in hisec, and I'd be happy to respond to you.
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:19:37 -
[523] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
If it wasn't safe, then being in an NPC corp wouldn't be a universal choice for haulers, mission runners, incursion runners, and the like.
Since it isn't a universal choice for 2 of the 3 professions you mention can we then assume your statement is false? Feel free to specify what sort of corps you think they belong to while operating primarily in hisec, and I'd be happy to respond to you. All I can give is anecdotal experience, but against the claim of a universal standard undocking in a mission hub and seeing the majority of Pirate BS's and marauders with player corp tags and being one of the few people in an NPC corp in the incursion groups I ran with for a while should be enough to debunk the use of the word universal.
Do some do that? Yes, but most don't. What you mean by what sort of corp I'm not sure, if it's not an NPC corp it's a player corp, which should go without saying.
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beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:22:07 -
[524] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Feel free to specify what sort of corps you think they belong to while operating primarily in hisec, and I'd be happy to respond to you.
In my own experience, people really aren't fond of that 11% tax. I can't speak for mission runners because I don't know any, but I've found it pretty uncommon to see fellow NPC corp members in an incursion fleet. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12178
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:26:56 -
[525] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Since it isn't a universal choice for 2 of the 3 professions you mention can we then assume your statement is false?
Pretty sure the people who are dec dodging are being considered in that category as well, since that's a widely used fringe benefit of NPC corps.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:32:53 -
[526] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Since it isn't a universal choice for 2 of the 3 professions you mention can we then assume your statement is false?
Pretty sure the people who are dec dodging are being considered in that category as well, since that's a widely used fringe benefit of NPC corps.
That's a separate subject regarding the limits of wardecs, but still harder in concept for either of us to prove how prolific it is. To be honest I'd say the deck dodger in a loot pinata running missions is better fodder for "content" than the player who just logs off for a week, but I'd even more assume that the bulk of highsec corps are nobodies and are quite content with that as it doesn't draw attention like wardecs.
But again, all anecdotal. As a member of code I'm sure your experience is different, but code itself provokes those responses by design so... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12178
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:35:56 -
[527] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That's a separate subject regarding the limits of wardecs, but still harder in concept for either of us to prove how prolific it is. To be honest I'd say the deck dodger in a loot pinata running missions is better fodder for "content" than the player who just logs off for a week, but I'd even more assume that the bulk of highsec corps are nobodies and are quite content with that as it doesn't draw attention like wardecs.
But again, all anecdotal. As a member of code I'm sure your experience is different, but code itself provokes those responses by design so...
I would argue that they are not separate subjects. They're very closely tied in with one another, as they the defining features of wardecs and NPC corps relate to each other, respectively.
Discussion of one entails discussion of the other.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:41:55 -
[528] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That's a separate subject regarding the limits of wardecs, but still harder in concept for either of us to prove how prolific it is. To be honest I'd say the deck dodger in a loot pinata running missions is better fodder for "content" than the player who just logs off for a week, but I'd even more assume that the bulk of highsec corps are nobodies and are quite content with that as it doesn't draw attention like wardecs.
But again, all anecdotal. As a member of code I'm sure your experience is different, but code itself provokes those responses by design so...
I would argue that they are not separate subjects. They're very closely tied in with one another, as they the defining features of wardecs and NPC corps relate to each other, respectively. Discussion of one entails discussion of the other.
That doesn't address the point that neither of us has data regarding the subject at hand so even if you move the goalpost from NPC corps to dec dodge corps the answer doesn't change.
Regarding wardecs, I already addressed how they fail as a real time consequence and are easy to draw to non-playing trash characters, or characters who through the use of alts remove chances of meaningful retaliation. I don't see reason to discuss them here because they are conceptually broken as a consequence thus immunity to them isn't avoiding consequence.
They allow aggression but make no attempt at associating that with any reason. That isn't consequence, just another form of engagement with a 24 hour warning. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12180
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 01:49:59 -
[529] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That doesn't address the point that neither of us has data regarding the subject at hand so even if you move the goalpost from NPC corps to dec dodge corps the answer doesn't change.
I'm not moving anything. I'm introducing an element for consideration that you had overlooked.
The point is that NPC corps, whatever else some people may use them for, currently facilitate extreme risk aversion, solo and antisocial playstyles, and hamper interaction with the playerbase at large.
And I believe that needs looked at. CCP believes it too, or they wouldn't be making so many pushes to get more people (new players especially), into player corps.
But we can't actually have the discussion because people are so intent on derailing, deflecting and derogating that we can't even move forward with the basic premise.
I get it, people want to defend their golden goose. Too bad, it's going to happen, just like ISBoxer did, because the way it works right now is bad for the game. People in this thread can get in on the discussion now or after the dev blog drops, their choice.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Commander Spurty
Dimension Door
We need wards.
1438
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:06:29 -
[530] - Quote
Go to low sec, null sec or wormhole space. 75% of space is yours to go pew pew in.
Leave the vernal pools, evolve, shoot people that probably have 10mill skill points than you, rather than ones that definitely have under 10mill total!!
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
|
|
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
139
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:16:54 -
[531] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I have said this before, and I'll say it again. Whenever a problem in Eve seems insurmountable, bring more people.
If banding together didn't work against the highest of high SP ~elitepvp~ groups, a lot of Eve's history never could have happened as it did.
There is a huge difference between "eve history" and "grief decs".
The key point of grief decs is that if grief deccer sees you have brought enough SP, he will not fight, completely destroying the point of banding up, laughing at a crapload of people who wasted their time they might have used to, I dunno, actually play the game, to see them dock up in all those useless PvP ships they are never going to make to work anyway which will be useless after this occasion and thus are as good as lost.
Most of the time a target for grief dec would be carefully selected to not have any ability to band up with anything anyway.
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I almost wish there was an accurate way to show average SP of pilots in a fleet, and then compare fleets against each other. I say almost, because the benefit would be smashing part of the quoted belief forever. However, the negative would be that it would just end up being one more "early warning system" to make people run and dock.
Aw man, aw man, aw man, you just sounded like those secret agents in my old man's conspiracy fiction books. You know, like "we can neither confirm nor deny... " style.
In one statement you both DENIED the statement of importance of SP saying you'd smash it with a tool, and then just CONFIRMED the same statement by saying people would run and dock, apparently nobody runs and docks without a reason, and if SP wall is not a reason like you stated in denial, they would have no reason to do that, unless it's true, in which case it's a confirmation. Since you expressed both opinions, and I expressed one, this makes the SP issue win 1.5 to 0.5 in favor or relevant between us.
That aside, I must cover misunderstanding you have. First, average SP is just like any other completely generic average, useless. It's TOTAL SP that counts. Of course, SP is a non-linear force multiplier - an order of magnitude advantage in SP is two orders of magnitude advantage in your ship capabilities - so even two groups with comparable total SP may be not comparable in amount of capabilities, but you get the point.
Commander Spurty wrote:Go to low sec, null sec or wormhole space. 75% of space is yours to go pew pew in.
Leave the vernal pools, evolve, shoot people that probably have 10mill skill points than you, rather than ones that definitely have under 10mill total!!
You do realize he won't have joined CODE after being booted out of ROC if he weren't scaredof going low/null/wh?
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1372
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:17:00 -
[532] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That doesn't address the point that neither of us has data regarding the subject at hand so even if you move the goalpost from NPC corps to dec dodge corps the answer doesn't change.
I'm not moving anything. I'm introducing an element for consideration that you had overlooked. The point is that NPC corps, whatever else some people may use them for, currently facilitate extreme risk aversion, solo and antisocial playstyles, and hamper interaction with the playerbase at large. And I believe that needs looked at. CCP believes it too, or they wouldn't be making so many pushes to get more people (new players especially), into player corps. But we can't actually have the discussion because people are so intent on derailing, deflecting and derogating that we can't even move forward with the basic premise. I get it, people want to defend their golden goose. Too bad, it's going to happen, just like ISBoxer did, because the way it works right now is bad for the game. People in this thread can get in on the discussion now or after the dev blog drops, their choice.
We are having the discussion, or at least I thought we were.
More deeply though, we seem to have an ideological conflict, particularly around the idea of framing solo, antisocial or risk averse play styles as inherently negative. I think the recent intra-corp aggression toggle states the opposite of your claim though. CCP probably realized at some point that risk cannot be a forced factor pitted against social interaction if the latter is so important. Someone may have realized that risk is a fair and reasonable thing to mitigate.
But even then, it's not for everyone. Not everyone wants to play as part of a group. Most new players won't likely want to follow that route initially, but it shouldn't be discounted as wrong.
What is contradictory about the position of NPC corps being bad as a result of wardecs is that wardecs are antisocial in nature. The encourage not joining social groups like corps and alliances and promote lose associations with player entities through dec dodging being the most efficient course of action.
Of course without dec dodging the only method within ones capacity is evasion or logging off, both providing sufficient penalty to being in player groups. We could simply say join a better group, but again we're talking about players who have no idea how to evaluate that, which extends to a number of veterans as well.
So if people not being able to be dec'd is the issue, that runs afoul the idea of a retention issue for a number of reasons mostly involving luck of the player. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12180
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:23:21 -
[533] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:Go to low sec, null sec or wormhole space. 75% of space is yours to go pew pew in.
Wrong.
100% of space is mine to go pew pew in, because EVE Online is a PvP game.
Basil Pumpkin wrote:You do realize he won't have joined CODE after being booted out of ROC if he weren't scaredof going low/null/wh?
Entirely false. I left of my own accord, with good relations with my former alliance.
Ask them if you don't believe me. Regardless, cease your lies.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:27:42 -
[534] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:I would argue that they are not separate subjects. They're very closely tied in with one another, as the defining features of wardecs and NPC corps relate to each other, respectively.
The defining feature of NPC corps from the perspective of game mechanics may be that they are immune to wardecs, but for some the appeal of an NPC corp is that, from a social perspective, they are structureless. I'm personally resistant to the idea of trying to deal with one issue without accomodating for the other. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
83
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:32:14 -
[535] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Banding together doesn't work, because eve combat pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon.
I.... I hope you're being sarcastic? I can't tell.
Seven days after starting, I had my first PvP action in null - resulting in the loss of my ship, an Atron. I probably had less than a million SP at that point. 13 minutes later, in my Incursus, I was on my first killmail, a Vagabond. A minute after that, a second killmail, also a Vagabond. Then after another 15 minutes, I lost the Incursus.
It was a glorious day.
Yes, I was flying with some very good pilots, but my little ships mattered.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
140
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:37:22 -
[536] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:100% of space is mine to go pew pew in, because EVE Online is a PvP game.
Quoted to be wrong by CCP Seagull herself in today's fanfest stream.
But who is CCP Seagull to listen to for a beautiful person like you, right?
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Entirely false. I left of my own accord, with good relations with my former alliance.
Ask them if you don't believe me. Regardless, cease your lies.
Yeah, yeah, buddy, you just went from bad to worse because you liked worse.
I mean, seriously, who are you trying to trick? Just be honest and we all will be sorry for that bootmark on your rear, because everyone knows you don't join CODE if you're good for anything other than F1 monkeyism against a gunless target.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
83
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:39:02 -
[537] - Quote
I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players.  I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.)
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
140
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:39:49 -
[538] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Banding together doesn't work, because eve combat pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon. I.... I hope you're being sarcastic? I can't tell. Seven days after starting, I had my first PvP action in null - resulting in the loss of my ship, an Atron. I probably had less than a million SP at that point. 13 minutes later, in my Incursus, I was on my first killmail, a Vagabond. A minute after that, a second killmail, also a Vagabond. Then after another 15 minutes, I lost the Incursus. It was a glorious day. Yes, I was flying with some very good pilots, but my little ships mattered.
I'm not being sarcastic, because what I said is entirely true. You just proved it.
Tell me, where would you be without those "some very good pilots", and you can go and keep believing your little ship mattered anything more than a living bait with the hook stuffed up your rear.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
83
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:52:24 -
[539] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:I'm not being sarcastic, because what I said is entirely true. You just proved it.
Tell me, where would you be without those "some very good pilots", and you can go and keep believing your little ship mattered anything more than a living bait with the hook stuffed up your rear.
You said "pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon." Yet I was PvPing with less than a million SP. And if you think an Atron and Incursus is only good for bait, you don't understand small-gang PvP very well.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12180
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 02:58:28 -
[540] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: because everyone knows you don't join CODE if you're good for anything other than F1 monkeyism against a gunless target.
And behold, the shocking intellectual dishonesty of carebears, ladies and gentlemen.
It is impossible that anyone would hold a contradictory viewpoint in any honesty, according to Basil here.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
|
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
954
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:06:34 -
[541] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Aw man, aw man, aw man, you just sounded like those secret agents in my old man's conspiracy fiction books. You know, like "we can neither confirm nor deny... " style.
In one statement you both DENIED the statement of importance of SP saying you'd smash it with a tool, and then just CONFIRMED the same statement by saying people would run and dock, apparently nobody runs and docks without a reason, and if SP wall is not a reason like you stated in denial, they would have no reason to do that, unless it's true, in which case it's a confirmation. Since you expressed both opinions, and I expressed one, this makes the SP issue win 1.5 to 0.5 in favor or relevant between us.
That aside, I must cover misunderstanding you have. First, average SP is just like any other completely generic average, useless. It's TOTAL SP that counts. Of course, SP is a non-linear force multiplier - an order of magnitude advantage in SP is two orders of magnitude advantage in your ship capabilities - so even two groups with comparable total SP may be not comparable in amount of capabilities, but you get the point.
I never said that it was irrelevant, nor of no consequence, only that banding together to overcome it most definitely does work, within reason. Given the nature of SP's function within the game, to say that it's irrelevant takes a special kind of willful ignorance.
As an extreme example of something that wouldn't work: 255 day one newbies in rookie ships, attacking a maxed SP piloted Nyx.
However, give them all about four months of training, and something a bit less ridiculous shipwise (at least a few being dictors/hictors), and you've got a dead super.
This obviously assumes no outside interference, and yes, I know it's a ridiculous (though not impossible) scenario. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34952
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:09:21 -
[542] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:100% of space is mine to go pew pew in, because EVE Online is a PvP game. Quoted to be wrong by CCP Seagull herself in today's fanfest stream.
Except that he isn't wrong.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
954
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:12:05 -
[543] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players. I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.)
Also note something I said earlier. I pointed out CAS very specifically, as being about the only new player NPC corp that is worth a damn. Assuming that you had no idea what you were doing when you selected your starting school, you got lucky, nothing more. If you'd have picked say, Hedion University, you may well just be another early Eve burnout who quit out of sheer boredom after a couple of weeks or months. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12181
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:14:54 -
[544] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:100% of space is mine to go pew pew in, because EVE Online is a PvP game. Quoted to be wrong by CCP Seagull herself in today's fanfest stream. Except that he isn't wrong.
Shh, don't let facts get in the way of his ranting.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:24:00 -
[545] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Eli Stan wrote:I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players. I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.) Also note something I said earlier. I pointed out CAS very specifically, as being about the only new player NPC corp that is worth a damn. Assuming that you had no idea what you were doing when you selected your starting school, you got lucky, nothing more. If you'd have picked say, Hedion University, you may well just be another early Eve burnout who quit out of sheer boredom after a couple of weeks or months.
This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.
I'd wager the core issue with retention isn't NPC corps specifically, but the concept of social groups designed to concentrate the clueless. If we're looking at interaction as a retention driver that has to be player driven, there isn't anything CCP can do about it. So the issue becomes that no matter what environment you put new players into, if there aren't veterans with an interest or desire to interact with them, they burn out. Interestingly, if what you say of CAS is true that serves as proof there is nothing preventing that from happening in other NPC corps.
What then can CCP do to encourage the real solution, veteran players actually being more involved with the general population of new players? |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:27:18 -
[546] - Quote
Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread. |
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
955
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:33:40 -
[547] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.
I'd wager the core issue with retention isn't NPC corps specifically, but the concept of social groups designed to concentrate the clueless. If we're looking at interaction as a retention driver that has to be player driven, there isn't anything CCP can do about it. So the issue becomes that no matter what environment you put new players into, if there aren't veterans with an interest or desire to interact with them, they burn out. Interestingly, if what you say of CAS is true that serves as proof there is nothing preventing that from happening in other NPC corps.
What then can CCP do to encourage the real solution, veteran players actually being more involved with the general population of new players?
I agree with just about everything you said there. However, for some reason, a core groups of about fifteen seven year plus veterans decided to make that NPC corp their permanent home, in order to help the new blood. They are the antithesis of what most people expect when they hear "noobcorp". They have a group that lives in Syndicate, a member who uses their Rorqual almost solely for creating jump clones for players too young to have the standings to place them in NPC stations so they can go pvp in null (they operate as NPSI), etc. Hell, they have an actual spinoff alliance that has participated in the AT, and they fielded a group in the NEO at least once that I am aware of.
I haven't seen anything even remotely resembling that kind of engagement from the other starter corporations. Hell, you're lucky to get twenty lines of text in corp chat in a two hour play session in most of the others.
What caused this? The hell if I know. It existed long before I came to Eve.
As for what CCP can do to encourage veteran engagement, I honestly haven't a clue. Outside of what I just mentioned, I've only ever seen that level of engagement with new players in E-UNI, GSF, and BNI. I am sure it exists on smaller scales, but those are the only ones that I have witnessed firsthand. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34953
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:34:26 -
[548] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.
I'd wager the core issue with retention isn't NPC corps specifically, but the concept of social groups designed to concentrate the clueless. If we're looking at interaction as a retention driver that has to be player driven, there isn't anything CCP can do about it. So the issue becomes that no matter what environment you put new players into, if there aren't veterans with an interest or desire to interact with them, they burn out. Interestingly, if what you say of CAS is true that serves as proof there is nothing preventing that from happening in other NPC corps.
What then can CCP do to encourage the real solution, veteran players actually being more involved with the general population of new players?
CCP Rise alluded to that at Fanfest today either in his short presentation on the NPE, or in the game design panel; where he mentioned, as he has before, that CCP see a strong relationship between players social engagement and their likelihood to remain in the game. Part of the goal with the NPE changes I think is to try to increase social contact as early as possible.
Where the issue of the NPC Corps fits into that is that there is no structure in an NPC Corp that itself encourages social interaction in the same way that player Corps do.
It doesn't mean that NPC Corps have to be bad at social interation (eg. CAS), but that if you can encourage people to move into player run Corps, you automatically put them in an environment that by design is far more structured around social interaction.
Definitely I think, where veterans are involved in those Corps, the new players have a better chance of learning good skills, as opposed to Corps of new players; which can also be a symptom of areas of play within NPC Corps (eg. new players see mostly other new players in starter systems so it's likely that any social interaction will be with other new players rather than veterans).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Ciel993
Vision Partners
End of Natural Lifetime
3
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:38:03 -
[549] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote: Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.
You know, threads like this tend to escalate quickly... |
Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
42
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:38:29 -
[550] - Quote
OK what I said a few pages back that I would never leave the NPC corp? After watching the keynote on the future of Player Owned Structures I would actually reconsider my stance once that is rolled out. That actually looks exciting and fun and something to look forward to being a part of.
And also I would like to say to the CODE terrorist guy who I have been poking fun at, I get the sense that one of the reasons he hates NPC corp players, is that he sees them all as the types of players that ask for nerfs against his preferred playstyle (ganking I presume).
Nothing could be further from the truth. While I don't think I would have anything in common with most of the people in that corp I enjoy the fact that they are around. I like the terror they and others like them instill in high sec. The fact even with the protection of Concord you are never truly safe. Especially if you play stupidly or AFK. I love to put a little fear into new Retriever pilots who post their untanked fits. Like telling a naughty child that CODE will get them if they misbehave and don't fly responsibly. For the short time I had a little mining fleet (before I got sick of it) they were the only thing that kept it slightly interesting because danger was always right around the corner. I love when people in corp post kills of indies with billions of isk worth of cargo in an Iteron V with no modules at all and I love when my own blockade runner makes it to a marketplace safely.
That said I don't have an issue with any game play nerfs and loopholes that CCP put in place orany buffs to mining or indy ships which make sense from a lore perspective. But I think keeping high sec dangerous makes Eve more interesting.
I am not sure wardecs are the only way to do that but honestly don't have enough experience with the matter to give any constructive feedback or ideas to improve it.
And I still say the NPE more than anything else is the answer to improving player retention (if anyone truly cares about that in this thread). |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12184
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:41:23 -
[551] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.
Quite the opposite.
It suggests that thus far, the only mitigating factor in favor of NPC corps is completely player created and player driven.
That is just how badly CCP has failed in this regard.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34956
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:49:59 -
[552] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote: Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.
Because it's the only game I personally play, so I have as much stake in this issue as anyone else.
You don't need to be in an NPC Corp (I have alts in NPC Corps, so I guess I could post with those) to be interested in the topic.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
957
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:51:17 -
[553] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote: Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread. Because it's the only game I personally play, so I have as much stake in this issue as anyone else. You don't need to be in an NPC Corp (I have alts in NPC Corps, so I guess I could post with those) to be interested in the topic.
I was wondering if I was the only one who found it odd that we were just encouraged to post with NPC corp alts. Must be something in the water. |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
57
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:54:13 -
[554] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote: Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread. Because it's the only game I personally play, so I have as much stake in this issue as anyone else. You don't need to be in an NPC Corp (I have alts in NPC Corps, so I guess I could post with those) to be interested in the topic.
My point is to let the NPC members post their reasoning not divert the thread into a debate over wardecs. Because, at least for me, the major motive is lack of social hierarchies. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:54:18 -
[555] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:I'm not being sarcastic, because what I said is entirely true. You just proved it.
Tell me, where would you be without those "some very good pilots", and you can go and keep believing your little ship mattered anything more than a living bait with the hook stuffed up your rear. You said "pvp is restricted and inaccessible without 105 mil SP god toon." Yet I was PvPing with less than a million SP. And if you think an Atron and Incursus is only good for bait, you don't understand small-gang PvP very well.
I don't think an Atron and Incursus are only good for bait.
I say that anyone below a few years worth of SP in ANY SHIP is only good for a bait. Which is true.
You were a bait, the worm on the hook, who felt like he matters, because the fisherman won't catch the fish without him.
I won't ask if you liked the hook up there, just don't deny the obvious.
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I never said that it was irrelevant, nor of no consequence, only that banding together to overcome it most definitely does work, within reason. Given the nature of SP's function within the game, to say that it's irrelevant takes a special kind of willful ignorance.
As an extreme example of something that wouldn't work: 255 day one newbies in rookie ships, attacking a maxed SP piloted Nyx.
However, give them all about four months of training, and something a bit less ridiculous shipwise (at least a few being dictors/hictors), and you've got a dead super.
This obviously assumes no outside interference, and yes, I know it's a ridiculous (though not impossible) scenario.
4 months with up to 2500 SP/hour would give up to 7 million SP.
255 people with 7 million SP is 1785 million SP.
This creates exactly what I were speaking about - an order of magnitude difference between their total SP and 105-million-ish Nyx owner SP, which is necessary to break the SP wall against the Nyx owner SP. So it's only natural that they win.
This is a purely hypothetical, but yet another point for me.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 03:55:56 -
[556] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:CCP Rise alluded to that at Fanfest today either in his short presentation on the NPE, or in the game design panel; where he mentioned, as he has before, that CCP see a strong relationship between players social engagement and their likelihood to remain in the game. Part of the goal with the NPE changes I think is to try to increase social contact as early as possible.
Where the issue of the NPC Corps fits into that is that there is no structure in an NPC Corp that itself encourages social interaction in the same way that player Corps do.
It doesn't mean that NPC Corps have to be bad at social interation (eg. CAS), but that if you can encourage people to move into player run Corps, you automatically put them in an environment that by design is far more structured around social interaction.
Definitely I think, where veterans are involved in those Corps, the new players have a better chance of learning good skills, as opposed to Corps of new players; which can also be a symptom of areas of play within NPC Corps (eg. new players see mostly other new players in starter systems so it's likely that any social interaction will be with other new players rather than veterans).
I really need to watch that but likely won't have a chance till the weekend.
Your description though sounds like what we've had to date, a lot of talk involving goals, but no concrete path to make them a reality. Even talking about the difference between player corps and NPC corps doesn't address the main issues I have.
New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences. Since player corps largely can't be that place they pretty much have to start out in an NPC neutral environment.
But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones. Worse, the NPE still doesn't put you in contact with veterans with an interest in newbies, but still relies on them to reach out and seek social groups on their own initiative.
The latter concern is where I believe the issue lies. I doubt CCP's ability to resolve this because only players can in all reality, and nothing is stopping them from doing it now. No vet is banned from putting a new character in an NPC corp and engaging there. Why this only happens in one corp I don't know. How it will change without assigning players to corps and can be done without CCP effectively endorsing certain corps in ways that I would think inappropriate I don't know.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12184
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:03:05 -
[557] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences.
I agree.
Problem is, right now it's overwhelmingly pushing people to PvE, solitary, boredom oriented playstyles. And, since the majority of the NPC corps they can end up in do nothing to change that, their subscription dies of boredom.
That has to change. You can't just handwave it away by saying "well CCP should fix the NPE", because NPC corps are a fundamental part of the NPE.
Quote:
But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones.
Yeah, which is why we should be pushing to empower people to be able to destroy such corps. You know, have something to fight for that can engage new players in the game, instead of making them mine for three months until they quit.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:03:40 -
[558] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This suggests the solution is in player hands via veteran engagement.
Quite the opposite. It suggests that thus far, the only mitigating factor in favor of NPC corps is completely player created and player driven. That is just how badly CCP has failed in this regard.
That's the same thing I said save a twist to make NPC corps a pejorative again. Though despite your assertion you haven't presented any reason for that twist. As stated, new players have to go somewhere and if veterans decide to not be there CCP can't fail as success was never an option WE provided them. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:04:59 -
[559] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences.
I agree. Problem is, right now it's overwhelmingly pushing people to PvE, solitary, boredom oriented playstyles. And, since the majority of the NPC corps they can end up in do nothing to change that, their subscription dies of boredom. That has to change. You can't just handwave it away by saying "well CCP should fix the NPE", because NPC corps are a fundamental part of the NPE. Quote:
But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones.
Yeah, which is why we should be pushing to empower people to be able to destroy such corps. You know, have something to fight for that can engage new players in the game, instead of making them mine for three months until they quit.
The only overwhelmingly boring thing in eve is combat pvp. Throwing anyone below 105 million SP into it will make him quit not in 3 months, but instantly.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12184
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:06:09 -
[560] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
*sneezing noise
Gesundheit.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34959
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:11:15 -
[561] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:My point is to let the NPC members post their reasoning not divert the thread into a debate over wardecs. Because, at least for me, the major motive is lack of social hierarchies.
Ok. Perhaps it's worth just saying what you really mean up front.
What Corp someone is in is irrelevant to the topic of the thread because anyone, irrespective of who their main is, could post on an NPC Corp alt. the ideas would be no different.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:12:14 -
[562] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
New players have to start somewhere, and that should ideally be somewhere neutral rather than pushing new players to established metagame sides or behavioral preferences.
I agree. Problem is, right now it's overwhelmingly pushing people to PvE, solitary, boredom oriented playstyles. And, since the majority of the NPC corps they can end up in do nothing to change that, their subscription dies of boredom. That has to change. You can't just handwave it away by saying "well CCP should fix the NPE", because NPC corps are a fundamental part of the NPE. Quote:
But most importantly, it still doesn't ensure a positive experience for new players in player corps because there are terrible player corps out there and genuine new players are going to have issues determining those from the good ones.
Yeah, which is why we should be pushing to empower people to be able to destroy such corps. You know, have something to fight for that can engage new players in the game, instead of making them mine for three months until they quit.
Actually, I thought I was pretty clearly on the path that CCP can't fix most of the NPE. If the NPE needs social interaction to work, it needs people to be social with and since not much is preventing that, what more can CCP do? Really i'd say the best move would be letting vets chose an NPC corp so that those with interest in helping new players can join those groups that are currently closed to them.
You have presented another contradiction though. Through the destruction of lesser social groups do you think retention will be helped or hurt? Bear in mind that players can and (some) do act in hostile manners to the limits that the rules allow. Creating scenarios designed to destroy a group and it's member without a way out is just asking for a trap scenario to expand the current dock up and wait it out response to wardecs. That's not good for retention either. So do we want a revolving door or growth? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12184
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:13:06 -
[563] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:As stated, new players have to go somewhere and if veterans decide to not be there CCP can't fail as success was never an option WE provided them.
New players do have to go somewhere, exactly.
So why does that place have to be this sedentary, PvE focused group, every single time for every new player? Why is it that if you join this game to do something besides peck at rocks all goddamn day, you have to ask the EVE subreddit how to do it?
That's not our fault as players. It's CCP's fault for allowing this stagnation, for not taking an axe to this sacred cow a long time ago.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34960
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:15:53 -
[564] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:The only overwhelmingly boring thing in eve is combat pvp. Throwing anyone below 105 million SP into it will make him quit not in 3 months, but instantly.
Nah. I've been pvping since day 6, while still in an NPC Corp and with 28 million SP now I'm doing ok. Certainly having fun and have been since I started solo.
But none of this really has much to do with the topic. It's just a pointless distraction.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12184
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:19:22 -
[565] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually, I thought I was pretty clearly on the path that CCP can't fix most of the NPE. If the NPE needs social interaction to work, it needs people to be social with and since not much is preventing that, what more can CCP do?
The way NPC corps work right now is a large factor in anti social behavior. They, along with the NPE, need to be reworked to offer a more social experience with more potential for conflict and in-space player interaction, not just jawing on in the shared chat channel.
Quote:
You have presented another contradiction though. Through the destruction of lesser social groups do you think retention will be helped or hurt?
Helped. My ideal solution would likely result in the dissolution of about 50% of the currently existing corps in highsec.
Quote:
Creating scenarios designed to destroy a group and it's member without a way out
Who said anything about no way out?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:22:02 -
[566] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:As stated, new players have to go somewhere and if veterans decide to not be there CCP can't fail as success was never an option WE provided them. New players do have to go somewhere, exactly. So why does that place have to be this sedentary, PvE focused group, every single time for every new player? Why is it that if you join this game to do something besides peck at rocks all goddamn day, you have to ask the EVE subreddit how to do it? That's not our fault as players. It's CCP's fault for allowing this stagnation, for not taking an axe to this sacred cow a long time ago.
Actually yes, it is the fault of players if you subscribe to the logic that social interaction drives retention. I believe the NPE can't be a substitute for that interaction as no matter how well it conveys the mechanics of the game that doesn't actually create that social component. Do you disagree
It seems you do agree that existing social groups shouldn't get free members. That means we have to have a new player bin of sorts and that bin WILL turn into the current NPC corps without fail unless someone outside of CCP curates it into what it should be. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:23:16 -
[567] - Quote
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:Eli Stan wrote:I still don't see how subjecting the 40%ers to war decs (assuming they are actually in NPC corps) will increase the retention of those players. I still think they'll simply quit earlier. Only by introducing them to social aspects of play during the NPE will they have a chance of becoming long-term players. (At least, that's what happened with me, an MMO newbie in addition to an EVE newbie, by exposure to CAS's social aspects.) Also note something I said earlier. I pointed out CAS very specifically, as being about the only new player NPC corp that is worth a damn. Assuming that you had no idea what you were doing when you selected your starting school, you got lucky, nothing more. If you'd have picked say, Hedion University, you may well just be another early Eve burnout who quit out of sheer boredom after a couple of weeks or months.
That's very true. I wouldn't say it was PURE luck that I ended up in a socially active NPC corp - I picked Gallente and CAS based off the descriptions because they fit my personality, and assuming the other CAS players did as well, it stands to reason I'd find a like-minded group I fit in with, in particular a group that's interested in helping newbies out - but yeah, if I had created Eli in some other NPC corp, I likely would have been in the 40%, possibly even the 50%. Highly unlikely I would have bothered past a few months. And that would be true even if I had been moved out of my starter corp by whatever means - I would have been a quitting one-man-corp instead of a quitting Heidion University grad, for example.
Which just furthers my conviction that the 40% getting bored and leaving isn't because of NPC corps, and isn't because of the lack of wardecs.
It is, in my mind, a combination of a) those players simply not being interested in social play due to their personalities, with which nothing can be done, and b) players entering the game on their own, like I did, not being directed towards social play by the NPE and the veteran players. (A singular example of which is that "I quit" thread I linked here a while back.)
Getting newbies out of NPC corps won't increase retention, and subjecting newbies to war decs won't increase retention either. IMO YMMV yadda yadda.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:27:41 -
[568] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually, I thought I was pretty clearly on the path that CCP can't fix most of the NPE. If the NPE needs social interaction to work, it needs people to be social with and since not much is preventing that, what more can CCP do?
The way NPC corps work right now is a large factor in anti social behavior. They, along with the NPE, need to be reworked to offer a more social experience with more potential for conflict and in-space player interaction, not just jawing on in the shared chat channel. Quote:
You have presented another contradiction though. Through the destruction of lesser social groups do you think retention will be helped or hurt?
Helped. My ideal solution would likely result in the dissolution of about 50% of the currently existing corps in highsec. Quote:
Creating scenarios designed to destroy a group and it's member without a way out
Who said anything about no way out?
So you think destroying current social ties will help and believe you can do so without removing the ease of escape? If you have an idea please propose it.
Also, since NPC corps don't actually push you in ANY direction, how are they in particular contributing to what you are seeing? and how should they offer a greater social experience themselves? How can they encourage in space interaction? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12185
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:29:50 -
[569] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually yes, it is the fault of players if you subscribe to the logic that social interaction drives retention.
Social interaction does drive retention.
And they're being set up for failure because of the way NPC corps work right now, and because the tutorials push people into PvE.
Those two things combined are a death sentence for subscriptions, even CCP acknowledges this.
Quote:
It seems you do agree that existing social groups shouldn't get free members.
I certainly don't think that new players should start in EVE Uni, if that's what you mean. But that does not preclude us from improving upon the deeply flawed current rules of NPC corps.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12185
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:31:26 -
[570] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
So you think destroying current social ties will help and believe you can do so without removing the ease of escape? If you have an idea please propose it.
First of all, you already acknowledged that such corps are not social ties. They're just toxic newbie tax farms.
Secondly, yes, I believe that making highsec corps something worth fighting for, instead of a glorified chat channel, is the way forward for improved social interaction and thereby retention.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:37:19 -
[571] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually yes, it is the fault of players if you subscribe to the logic that social interaction drives retention. Social interaction does drive retention. And they're being set up for failure because of the way NPC corps work right now, and because the tutorials push people into PvE. Those two things combined are a death sentence for subscriptions, even CCP acknowledges this. Quote:
It seems you do agree that existing social groups shouldn't get free members.
I certainly don't think that new players should start in EVE Uni, if that's what you mean. But that does not preclude us from improving upon the deeply flawed current rules of NPC corps.
I want you to very explicitly describe the process you are claiming happens and the attributes of an NPC corp specifically that drive that process.
You stated the NPE pushes people into PvE, which I can agree with, but that says nothing of NPC corps. The NPE could be gutted without touching the NPC corps. So how do they, the corps, specifically feed into this. I need to know how that works, not just what you claim the ends are, to make sense of this. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
88
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:41:40 -
[572] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:I don't think an Atron and Incursus are only good for bait.
I say that anyone below a few years worth of SP in ANY SHIP is only good for a bait. Which is true.
You were a bait, the worm on the hook, who felt like he matters, because the fisherman won't catch the fish without him.
I won't ask if you liked the hook up there, just don't deny the obvious.
Heehee. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but your concept of the situation is so far removed from reality that I can't help but laugh. :) So here's the deal; those pilots on my first two killmail... I still fly with many of them a year later. I know them, trust them, enjoy flying with them, even know some of their RL tidbits. Despite my excessive lack of understanding of many of the aspects of EVE PvP at the time, I know now I was NOT bait, because I know how this fleet operates. I wouldn't consider myself a veteran at this point, but now I am the (somewhat) experienced player welcoming in the sub-mil newbies into fleet and helping show them the ropes. And they aren't bait either - they are important aspects of our small-gang warfare.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12185
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:42:34 -
[573] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I want you to very explicitly describe the process you are claiming happens and the attributes of an NPC corp specifically that drive that process.
You stated the NPE pushes people into PvE, which I can agree with, but that says nothing of NPC corps. The NPE could be gutted without touching the NPC corps. So how do they, the corps, specifically feed into this. I need to know how that works, not just what you claim the ends are, to make sense of this.
Are you serious?
Okay, laid out for you:
NPC corps are immune to wars.
Therefore, they attract people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general.
These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with.
Get it yet?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Steppa Musana
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
29
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:44:26 -
[574] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Actually yes, it is the fault of players if you subscribe to the logic that social interaction drives retention. Social interaction does drive retention. And they're being set up for failure because of the way NPC corps work right now, and because the tutorials push people into PvE. Those two things combined are a death sentence for subscriptions, even CCP acknowledges this. Quote:
It seems you do agree that existing social groups shouldn't get free members.
I certainly don't think that new players should start in EVE Uni, if that's what you mean. But that does not preclude us from improving upon the deeply flawed current rules of NPC corps. I want you to very explicitly describe the process you are claiming happens and the attributes of an NPC corp specifically that drive that process. You stated the NPE pushes people into PvE, which I can agree with, but that says nothing of NPC corps. The NPE could be gutted without touching the NPC corps. So how do they, the corps, specifically feed into this. I need to know how that works, not just what you claim the ends are, to make sense of this.
If you're doing PVE, you're doing it to earn ISK. Yes some players enjoy the gameplay but what they enjoy most is finding ways to max out how much ISK they earn through it. 1 man or NPC corps in highsec are perfect for it.
PVE gaming also comes tied with risk aversion. Its true everywhere, "dock up" is the main strategy outside of highsec.
So now you have a place, NPC or 1 man corps, that offer you the best of both. You dont have to dock up or fight so your ISKing is uninterrupted, which leads to the most profit. And your risk is minimal if you aren't a mutt.
50% NPC corp tax (all income that isnt trading) and wardecs following you when you drop corp would solve it imo. |
Valkin Mordirc
803
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:53:12 -
[575] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I want you to very explicitly describe the process you are claiming happens and the attributes of an NPC corp specifically that drive that process.
You stated the NPE pushes people into PvE, which I can agree with, but that says nothing of NPC corps. The NPE could be gutted without touching the NPC corps. So how do they, the corps, specifically feed into this. I need to know how that works, not just what you claim the ends are, to make sense of this.
Are you serious? Okay, laid out for you: NPC corps are immune to wars. Therefore, they attract people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general. These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with. Get it yet?
Thank god Veers and Basil are in Rolling corps aye? =P
#DeleteTheWeak
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:55:03 -
[576] - Quote
Considering the HUGE difference in damage players do to NPC ships vs. the damage that players do to each other (or was it damage that the NPC's do to players?) that CCP Quant showed during the keynote I would say there are a lot of people who are ratting or doing missions either because they enjoy that play style or because they need the income to be able to pursue their other interests. I'm not sure making NPC corps susceptible to war decs is going to have any sort of positive effect on player retention.
Sure Eve is a PvP game. But there is an awful lot of PvE going on. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:57:14 -
[577] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Are you serious?
Okay, laid out for you:
NPC corps are immune to wars.
Therefore, they attract people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general.
These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with.
Get it yet?
Thanks for the demonstration that this is again a social issue. Nothing about the corps themselves is the issue, it's people. The resolution is equally social. Without dec immunity you create a fish in a barrel scenario and without the ability for veterans to remain you have a sea of total new players without any social contact from veterans.
This the issue is again social with the best mechanical compromise I can think of. But I'm not that creative, and fully open to the idea of something better. What rules allow for veteran interaction without exposing people to aggression they can't yet understand? And what keeps veterans from creating characters to counter the supposed carebear influence?
All I can think of is consolidating the corps and allowing more vets to join at least in being in the channels. |
Valkin Mordirc
804
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 04:59:23 -
[578] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Considering the HUGE difference in damage players do to NPC ships vs. the damage that players do to each other (or was it damage that the NPC's do to players?) that CCP Quant showed during the keynote I would say there are a lot of people who are ratting or doing missions either because they enjoy that play style or because they need the income to be able to pursue their other interests. I'm not sure making NPC corps susceptible to war decs is going to have any sort of positive effect on player retention.
Sure Eve is a PvP game. But there is an awful lot of PvE going on.
PVE in EVE happens yes, I don't think anyone here has a problem with PVE. Whats your point? That hence EVE has PVE it's not just a PVP game?
EVE is a PVP game at its core, containing elements of PVE.
I think PVE as a way for PVP to happen via ISK and Mod drops.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:02:09 -
[579] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:If you're doing PVE, you're doing it to earn ISK. Yes some players enjoy the gameplay but what they enjoy most is finding ways to max out how much ISK they earn through it. 1 man or NPC corps in highsec are perfect for it.
PVE gaming also comes tied with risk aversion. Its true everywhere, "dock up" is the main strategy outside of highsec.
So now you have a place, NPC or 1 man corps, that offer you the best of both. You dont have to dock up or fight so your ISKing is uninterrupted, which leads to the most profit. And your risk is minimal if you aren't a mutt.
50% NPC corp tax (all income that isnt trading) and wardecs following you when you drop corp would solve it imo.
That would also expand the issue of wardec responses of docking up which as I recall was already acknowledged as problematic. If we're willing to disregard this as a possible driver for players leaving the game or of the opinion that we don't care if those people leave then i suppose that is a solution. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12186
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:05:36 -
[580] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Thanks for the demonstration that this is again a social issue. Nothing about the corps themselves is the issue, it's people.
Still off base.
We should not be enabling this, and certainly should not be enabling such people being the ones with prime access to new players.
It needs to be addressed, because CCP has already established for us that it's a problem.
Quote: And what keeps veterans from creating characters to counter the supposed carebear influence?
Because we actually like to play the game. Those of us who enjoy wardecs and PvP cannot do so in an NPC corp barring suicide ganking. We are effectively forbidden from interacting with new players at the basic stage of development.
That needs to change, that's my whole point in all of this. The new player experience needs to stop being exclusively carebear friendly, and that means changing NPC corps.
Quote:
All I can think of is consolidating the corps and allowing more vets to join at least in being in the channels.
Consolidation is one step, yes.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:06:17 -
[581] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Okay, laid out for you:
NPC corps are immune to wars.
Therefore, they attract people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general.
These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with.
Okay, so how does forcing / incenting them to leave their NPC corp drive up retention? You describe them as "people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general," so what do you think they'll do once out of their NPC corp? Join CFC and respond to CTAs? Join a small corp and start chatting with a handful of strangers they've never met before? No, I doubt it. I suspect they'll form a one-person corp and continue like they had been. And get bored even more quickly if they're deced and decid to wait out the war in station or not even bother logging on.
And how do these newbies see the interaction-avoiding veterans if the veterans never interact? Presumably those vets are off leveling their Raven in L4 missions, not hanging out in NPC corp chat or starter system local chat...
No, what newbies see when they start is an NPE that shows them how to mine, how to mission, how to build ammo, and how to rat. No change that CCP can make to NPC corps will change that.
What the newbies need is a better NPE and veteran-led fieldtrips. Older Raven-leveling players in danger of getting bored and quitting could stand to be offered the opportunity to go on some fieldtrips as well. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:08:52 -
[582] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Considering the HUGE difference in damage players do to NPC ships vs. the damage that players do to each other (or was it damage that the NPC's do to players?) that CCP Quant showed during the keynote I would say there are a lot of people who are ratting or doing missions either because they enjoy that play style or because they need the income to be able to pursue their other interests. I'm not sure making NPC corps susceptible to war decs is going to have any sort of positive effect on player retention.
Sure Eve is a PvP game. But there is an awful lot of PvE going on. PVE in EVE happens yes, I don't think anyone here has a problem with PVE. Whats your point? That hence EVE has PVE it's not just a PVP game? EVE is a PVP game at its core, containing elements of PVE. I think PVE as a way for PVP to happen via ISK and Mod drops.
The point I'd make from that is that that there are likely PvE focused players who if given the choice aren't going to PvP and will thus engage in evasive tactics. So at what point are you going to mandate they fight? What means should be sufficient to avoid PvP? How onerous or even inactive should it potentially make you? Should it even be possible? Or should those people be in a different game? |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
90
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:13:22 -
[583] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote:
50% NPC corp tax (all income that isnt trading) and wardecs following you when you drop corp would solve it imo.
The thing we're trying to solve is the 40% of players who don't socialize, get bored, and quit the game - 50% NPC corp tax will certainly dissuade players from staying in an NPC corp, but I don't see how it'll help player retention at all. Isn't it more likely the 40%ers will simply form single-person corps with 0% taxation, or just quit the game that much sooner?
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12186
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:13:49 -
[584] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:
Okay, so how does forcing
And the strawman again. I'm not even going to bother responding to your theoretical rebuttal to points that I didn't make.
Quote:
And how do these newbies see the interaction-avoiding veterans if the veterans never interact?
You ever been in Hedion during primetime, or hell, off time? They don't, that's the whole point.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:15:35 -
[585] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Thanks for the demonstration that this is again a social issue. Nothing about the corps themselves is the issue, it's people.
Still off base. We should not be enabling this, and certainly should not be enabling such people being the ones with prime access to new players. It needs to be addressed, because CCP has already established for us that it's a problem. Quote: And what keeps veterans from creating characters to counter the supposed carebear influence? Because we actually like to play the game. Those of us who enjoy wardecs and PvP cannot do so in an NPC corp barring suicide ganking. We are effectively forbidden from interacting with new players at the basic stage of development. That needs to change, that's my whole point in all of this. The new player experience needs to stop being exclusively carebear friendly, and that means changing NPC corps. Quote:
All I can think of is consolidating the corps and allowing more vets to join at least in being in the channels.
Consolidation is one step, yes.
The only aspect of this that is an issue, if even that, is the wardec immunity, and even that has a justification. So you can either exclude vets and further isolate new players or remove the immunity and throw new players into a conflict they have no way of understanding. Which of those is a positive?
Actually no, you could use heavy taxing, but that again creates an issue with veteran presence as anytime you are making isk you aren't engaging with new players and still not doing so when wanting wardec PvP.
On a side note you can PvP without ganking in most of space from an NPC corp. It's only highsec that's limited and then suspects are free targets. As you said, 100% of space is available for PvP. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12187
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:19:48 -
[586] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The only aspect of this that is an issue, if even that, is the wardec immunity, and even that has a justification. So you can either exclude vets and further isolate new players or remove the immunity and throw new players into a conflict they have no way of understanding. Which of those is a positive?
Why would they have no way of understanding it?
Oh, that's right, because the thrice damned tutorial is not worth squat for how to actually play the game besides shooting at red crosses and eating rocks.
These are not separate issues, for the very last time. They are inter-related, and changing one necessitates a revision of the other.
Quote:
Actually no, you could use heavy taxing, but that again creates an issue with veteran presence as anytime you are making isk you aren't engaging with new players and still not doing so when wanting wardec PvP.
Personally, I'd make it a tax based on character age. Anyone older than ninety days(or whatever arbitrary timeframe CCP decides on) would receive a heavier tax rate than the rest.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:20:12 -
[587] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
And what keeps veterans from creating characters to counter the supposed carebear influence?
Because we actually like to play the game. Those of us who enjoy wardecs and PvP cannot do so in an NPC corp barring suicide ganking. We are effectively forbidden from interacting with new players at the basic stage of development.
We can't? (scratches head in confusion) Then what's all this PvP I and my fleet have been engaging in? While at the same time welcoming newbies who stop by, even chatting in NPC corp chat? Stop by Syndicate a week from Saturday, you'll see a sizeable fleet of NPC corp members, newbies and veterans alike, engaging in a ton of PvP, blowing stuff up and being blown up and having a great time at it.
Quote:That needs to change, that's my whole point in all of this. The new player experience needs to stop being exclusively carebear friendly
Definitely.
Quote:and that means changing NPC corps.
Not at all.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:20:37 -
[588] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
Okay, so how does forcing
And the strawman again. I'm not even going to bother responding to your theoretical rebuttal to points that I didn't make. Quote:
And how do these newbies see the interaction-avoiding veterans if the veterans never interact?
You ever been in Hedion during primetime, or hell, off time? They don't, that's the whole point.
People who don't talk to people are influencing people with their non-words towards their playstyle. That's the logic we have to follow if this post is true as well as your post claiming those same asocials are actually influencing new players. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1374
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:25:19 -
[589] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The only aspect of this that is an issue, if even that, is the wardec immunity, and even that has a justification. So you can either exclude vets and further isolate new players or remove the immunity and throw new players into a conflict they have no way of understanding. Which of those is a positive?
Why would they have no way of understanding it? Oh, that's right, because the thrice damned tutorial is not worth squat for how to actually play the game besides shooting at red crosses and eating rocks. These are not separate issues, for the very last time. They are inter-related, and changing one necessitates a revision of the other. Quote:
Actually no, you could use heavy taxing, but that again creates an issue with veteran presence as anytime you are making isk you aren't engaging with new players and still not doing so when wanting wardec PvP.
Personally, I'd make it a tax based on character age. Anyone older than ninety days(or whatever arbitrary timeframe CCP decides on) would receive a heavier tax rate than the rest.
Um, I'm not sure about you but I don't think a dissertation on aggression mechanics before I undock is a good idea, nor do I think undocking to find one guy can shoot me but I can only shoot members of his corp back, not everyone is something I can digest in the first 5 min of play in which the game should DEFINITELY have me in space.
Unless we're throwing out the idea that new players are going to run through that first, which again I think is a failure, they won't know how it works. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:27:51 -
[590] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
Okay, so how does forcing
And the strawman again. I'm not even going to bother responding to your theoretical rebuttal to points that I didn't make.
Alright. (shrug) Incenting. Guiding. Advising. Getting. Ending up with. Am I correct in thinking you want people OUT of NPC corps? If so, put in whatever verb you feel is most appropriate. Let me know what it is, and I'll do my best to use only that.
So to start again, "how does ending up with them leaving their NPC corp drive up retention? etc. etc. etc."
Quote:Quote:
And how do these newbies see the interaction-avoiding veterans if the veterans never interact?
You ever been in Hedion during primetime, or hell, off time? They don't, that's the whole point.
Wait, you're saying the newbies DON'T see the carebear vets? Then why did you write "These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with." I thought you were making a point that non-interacting vets influence newbies into non-interaction by the newbies seeing them and trying to emulate them. But you're also saying there's no interaction, and therefore no possibility of influence?
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
141
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:30:07 -
[591] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:I don't think an Atron and Incursus are only good for bait.
I say that anyone below a few years worth of SP in ANY SHIP is only good for a bait. Which is true.
You were a bait, the worm on the hook, who felt like he matters, because the fisherman won't catch the fish without him.
I won't ask if you liked the hook up there, just don't deny the obvious. Heehee. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean, but your concept of the situation is so far removed from reality that I can't help but laugh. :) So here's the deal; those pilots on my first two killmail... I still fly with many of them a year later. I know them, trust them, enjoy flying with them, even know some of their RL tidbits. Despite my excessive lack of understanding of many of the aspects of EVE PvP at the time, I know now I was NOT bait, because I know how this fleet operates. I wouldn't consider myself a veteran at this point, but now I am the (somewhat) experienced player welcoming in the sub-mil newbies into fleet and helping show them the ropes. And they aren't bait either - they are important aspects of our small-gang warfare.
You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.
They may feel like they matter, like they are important, the bait and feed is important in fishing, the truth is, the medium who carried them over SP wall could operate exactly the same without them (save maybe the fact that new characters make more attractive baits) just as successfully. This brings us to the point - you feel like you participated, like your contribution matters, but the fact is, with or without you, the "fleet" would still operate the same, with nearly the same success rate. So, your weight is net zero, your contribution is net zero, you matter nothing for a "fleet", unless you contribute meaningfully to the SP blob of it, which newbros cannot do.
They are only good as the bait and no amount of wordplay will change that.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:33:30 -
[592] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Personally, I'd make it a tax based on character age. Anyone older than ninety days(or whatever arbitrary timeframe CCP decides on) would receive a heavier tax rate than the rest.
Take it for what it's worth, but I consider that a form of trying to "force" players out of their NPC corp, despite retaining the ability to remain in said corp. Call my description a straw man argument if you like, but I'm stating my personal interpretation of the process. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
91
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 05:48:05 -
[593] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.
They may feel like they matter, like they are important, the bait and feed is important in fishing, the truth is, the medium who carried them over SP wall could operate exactly the same without them (save maybe the fact that new characters make more attractive baits) just as successfully. This brings us to the point - you feel like you participated, like your contribution matters, but the fact is, with or without you, the "fleet" would still operate the same, with nearly the same success rate. So, your weight is net zero, your contribution is net zero, you matter nothing for a "fleet", unless you contribute meaningfully to the SP blob of it, which newbros cannot do.
They are only good as the bait and no amount of wordplay will change that.
Actually, it's our vets in tanky ships that are most often our bait. A newbie in a Atron that gets alphaed by a Thrasher is very poor bait indeed for a fleet looking to get in a fight.
A newbie who can get web and scram on a target first because they're in a Atron can mean, and has meant, all the difference in getting a kill or not. I've been that Atron pilot. Yes, I've lost a lot of Atrons. But I've often been the first one to get tackle on a target, and that's important.
One of the pilots on my first killmail has been playing for nearly 9 years. He's got a silly amount of SP. 150 million or so, probably. You know what? If he wasn't in fleet that day, our fleet STILL would "operate the same, with nearly the same success rate." Does that make 150 million SP pilots "matter nothing?"
I mean, it's not like we drop dreads on TCUs all the time, which yes is the realm of high-SP characters - we're a small-gang NPSI NPC-null PvP org. Where yes, newbros in Atrons do make the difference between a kill and a miss.
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Valkin Mordirc
804
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 06:16:36 -
[594] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.
They may feel like they matter, like they are important, the bait and feed is important in fishing, the truth is, the medium who carried them over SP wall could operate exactly the same without them (save maybe the fact that new characters make more attractive baits) just as successfully. This brings us to the point - you feel like you participated, like your contribution matters, but the fact is, with or without you, the "fleet" would still operate the same, with nearly the same success rate. So, your weight is net zero, your contribution is net zero, you matter nothing for a "fleet", unless you contribute meaningfully to the SP blob of it, which newbros cannot do.
They are only good as the bait and no amount of wordplay will change that.
You know after reading everything you blather on about. All I can really say is,
Thank god CCP isn't like you.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
44
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 06:18:57 -
[595] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Considering the HUGE difference in damage players do to NPC ships vs. the damage that players do to each other (or was it damage that the NPC's do to players?) that CCP Quant showed during the keynote I would say there are a lot of people who are ratting or doing missions either because they enjoy that play style or because they need the income to be able to pursue their other interests. I'm not sure making NPC corps susceptible to war decs is going to have any sort of positive effect on player retention.
Sure Eve is a PvP game. But there is an awful lot of PvE going on. PVE in EVE happens yes, I don't think anyone here has a problem with PVE. Whats your point? That hence EVE has PVE it's not just a PVP game? EVE is a PVP game at its core, containing elements of PVE. I think PVE as a way for PVP to happen via ISK and Mod drops.
My point is that there are probably a bunch of people that are not interested in actively seeking out PvP and are content to just do level 4 missions day in and day out. They are suspect to ganks, but forcing them into a situation where they will have to deal with wardecs, even in the NPC corp that have been safe since the start of Eve, may drive them away.
You don't care? EVE is better off without them? That's nice. But I am sure that CCP's wallet does not agree with you.
"WAAAAAHHH!! That isn't fair." OK. Maybe it isn't. But can you come up with an argument better than one a 6 year old would use? Because grownups know that life isn't fair and you just have to get over it.
Watching CCP Quant's presentation (at about the 6 hour mark on today's stream) it turns out that players do an average of 385 million damage a day to other players. Verse NPC's the number is 4.11 billion. In the same presentation the number of people whose focus is PvP was the smallest group compared to those who are well rounded, those who focus on industry, and those who just do missions. Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens. |
Valkin Mordirc
804
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 06:42:14 -
[596] - Quote
Quote:Watching CCP Quant's presentation (at about the 6 hour mark on today's stream) it turns out that players do an average of 385 million damage a day to other players. Verse NPC's the number is 4.11 billion. In the same presentation the number of people whose focus is PvP was the smallest group compared to those who are well rounded, those who focus on industry, and those who just do missions. Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens.
I haven't been able to watch the show yet, but I've seen the graph and yeah. Lots of damage on NPC ships. But you do realize how easy it is to kill an NPC ship and how much damage you do in a single mission? The numbers are interesting, but it hardly proves your point, as in one lvl 4 Mission I can find like what 20 battle ships with liiike, what is it? 20k ehp for each one? Not including the small stuff that is thrown if with them.
Sooo yeah....what is your point?
#DeleteTheWeak
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12189
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 08:19:33 -
[597] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Personally, I'd make it a tax based on character age. Anyone older than ninety days(or whatever arbitrary timeframe CCP decides on) would receive a heavier tax rate than the rest. Take it for what it's worth, but I consider that a form of trying to "force" players out of their NPC corp, despite retaining the ability to remain in said corp. Call my description a straw man argument if you like, but I'm stating my personal interpretation of the process.
No, that's how you keep people from abusing it as they do now, to dramatically increase their own safety.
The thing is, whichever way this comes down, it will be a net nerf. CCP has to make player corps worth having. And right now, player corps in highsec are worth nothing more than a chat channel, a corp hangar, and the dubious privilege of being able to setup poses. Meanwhile NPC corps have everything else plus immune to wardecs.
Something has to give, and it's going to be safety or profitability, or both.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12189
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 08:29:33 -
[598] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens.
That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict.
Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Juno Rook
Perkone
Caldari State
20
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 08:47:40 -
[599] - Quote
Why not approach this from a different angle.
From what I can gather, the problem at its most basic level is that there are fewer targets to pew pew at because new players are staying in npc corps.
So you have players living in null and low sec who want more people to venture out into the vast territory they live in. These players want more interaction so that more pvp happens. The fix is so easy it's laughable.
Simply cut the amount of null and low sec space in half so that players are compressed into smaller spaces. Tons more interaction with a huge potential for pvp. Just imagine all those pissed off pilots crammed into a tiny space. All looking to take out some retribution for loosing all that juicy sov space.
Some of you might not find my solution funny but if you ask for solutions loudly and often enough you might just get one. |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 08:53:05 -
[600] - Quote
Juno Rook wrote:Why not approach this from a different angle.
From what I can gather, the problem at its most basic level is that there are fewer targets to pew pew at because new players are staying in npc corps.
So you have players living in null and low sec who want more people to venture out into the vast territory they live in. These players want more interaction so that more pvp happens. The fix is so easy it's laughable.
Simply cut the amount of null and low sec space in half so that players are compressed into smaller spaces. Tons more interaction with a huge potential for pvp. Just imagine all those pissed off pilots crammed into a tiny space. All looking to take out some retribution for loosing all that juicy sov space.
Some of you might not find my solution funny but if you ask for solutions loudly and often enough you might just get one.
You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.
( -í° -£-û -í°) Hi, I'm Blob and I like to Blog.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34964
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 08:59:00 -
[601] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec.
Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth.
None of which really has much to do with the topic.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34964
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 09:01:40 -
[602] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless.
How does someone reach such a poor opinion of other people?
I'm not even trying to be funny. How can a guy you don't even know, be judged as useless.
It's kind of sad really to see; and totally opposite to my experience in this game.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 09:03:17 -
[603] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec. Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth. None of which really has much to do with the topic.
There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers.
Are we getting on topic now?
( -í° -£-û -í°) Hi, I'm Blob and I like to Blog.
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Valkin Mordirc
808
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 09:08:20 -
[604] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec. Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth. None of which really has much to do with the topic. There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers. Are we getting on topic now?
Not even close.
Though something tells me you have no idea on either subject.
Also yes l33t hisex merc corps only stay in hisex
#DeleteTheWeak
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34966
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 09:10:04 -
[605] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote:There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers.
Are we getting on topic now?
I've never heard of that myth. No. Totally at odds with what I see every day.
As for topic, still no. Way off topic.
Maybe we can get back to it though.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
58
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 09:12:31 -
[606] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec. Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth. None of which really has much to do with the topic. There's also the myth of low/null having only lonely pve fitted ships and haulers. Are we getting on topic now? Not even close. Though something tells me you have no idea on either subject. Also yes l33t hisex merc corps only stay in hisex
The topic is why do players stay in npc corps.
ßòª( -í° -£-û -í°)ßòñ Hi, I'm Blob and I like to Blog.
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Thora Zhubilai
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 09:42:16 -
[607] - Quote
change whatever you want ... players retention will probably NOT improve.
To force them into player corp will just push them to leave quicker.
Hi all!
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
48
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 09:47:12 -
[608] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens. That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict. Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product.
Or if you want more player conflict you can move out of high sec. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12191
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 10:06:53 -
[609] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens. That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict. Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product. Or if you want more player conflict you can move out of high sec.
No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
707
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 10:07:42 -
[610] - Quote
Thora Zhubilai wrote:change whatever you want ... players retention will probably NOT improve.
To force them into player corp will just push them to leave quicker.
Or not. CCP after looking at all the data seems to think that it will increase player retention. Well, perhaps not force, but much of their current strategy seems to be along the lines of building-in "strong encouragement" to get players, especially new ones, into vibrant player-run corporations where they are more likely to engage fully with the sandbox and stay in the game.
There will always be NPC corps for new players, players between corps, casuals and the truly risk-averse. But expect them to become less comfortable (and less lucrative) places to live relative to players corps over the coming years. This POS release and the coming corporation revamp are just the first steps towards this.
Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10 is a good idea.
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Thora Zhubilai
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2015.03.20 10:12:15 -
[611] - Quote
Nope.[/quote]
The real truth is that most gamers don't have the stomach or patience for EVE so they quit and go play something more (instant gratification) 'fun'. [/quote]
That's the real point!
Never you go reach 50'000, 100'000 or 200'000 players on server. (would be nice, but is just a dream)
The game is to harsh...or peoples to soft (haha)
Hi all!
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
145
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Posted - 2015.03.20 11:07:48 -
[612] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:You may call them however you like, my point is, without the "fleet" or other medium carrying them over SP wall as a part of an order-of-magnitude-difference-creating SP blobbing mechanic, they are useless, have been useless, and will remain useless. How does someone reach such a poor opinion of other people? I'm not even trying to be funny. How can a guy you don't even know, be judged as useless. It's kind of sad really to see; and totally opposite to my experience in this game.
He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall".
To make matters worse, "SP wall" grows every year, so if you're not gaining SP, you may also become useless, even if you weren't before. It also ensures that if you gain SP slower than the next guy, you will stay useless and locked out of combat pvp (edge case scenarios aside, you will always reliably die to SP wall) forever.
That's the nature of that sandbox game called EVE. Combat pvp niche is occupied, you may become content or have better luck next game, sucks to be below 105 million SP.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34968
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 11:21:18 -
[613] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall".
No he isn't, just as I wasn't when I decided to begin pvp almost immediately after I joined the game.
But my question wasn't about him. It was about you and how you could get to a position to make judgments that others are useless, without even knowing those people.
It's just a sad situation that there could be such negative judgments in the absence of any experience or knowledge.
But nothing about the other guy. Good luck to him if he is having fun. If he is playing his game and getting out of it what he wants, the n your judgment is rendered pretty much meaningless.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12195
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 11:22:10 -
[614] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall".
To make matters worse, "SP wall" grows every year, so if you're not gaining SP, you may also become useless, even if you weren't before. It also ensures that if you gain SP slower than the next guy, you will stay useless and locked out of combat pvp (edge case scenarios aside, you will always reliably die to SP wall) forever.
That's the nature of that sandbox game called EVE. Combat pvp niche is occupied, you may become content or have better luck next game, sucks to be below 105 million SP.
To any new player reading this, the entire quoted post is an enormous lie.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
146
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 12:39:13 -
[615] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall". No he isn't, just as I wasn't when I decided to begin pvp almost immediately after I joined the game. But my question wasn't about him. It was about you and how you could get to a position to make judgments that others are useless, without even knowing those people. It's just a sad situation that there could be such negative judgments in the absence of any experience or knowledge. But nothing about the other guy. Good luck to him if he is having fun. If he is playing his game and getting out of it what he wants, the n your judgment is rendered pretty much meaningless.
Knowledge of mechanics. If mechanics make you useless, it doesn't depend on who you are. You can be the salt of the earth, brightest and smartest of us, but SP wall makes no difference on personalities, it just sits there between you and any meaningful contributions to combat pvp, juicy bait aside.
I did not say anything about people having fun in it. There are people in this world who could have fun being kicked in the groin, so it's not really surprising there are people who could like the plain abuse of hitting their faces against SP wall. It takes some serious delusions and over-estimations of your usefulness to convince oneself that your contribution matters anything, but who am I to stop you if that's what your fun is?
But I am against you lying to others. You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but as far as lies go, telling people they are not useless against SP wall in combat PvP of eve online is a lie, which I will keep pointing out.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
He is made useless by mechanics preventing any usefulness below certain amount of SP, that I named "SP wall".
To make matters worse, "SP wall" grows every year, so if you're not gaining SP, you may also become useless, even if you weren't before. It also ensures that if you gain SP slower than the next guy, you will stay useless and locked out of combat pvp (edge case scenarios aside, you will always reliably die to SP wall) forever.
That's the nature of that sandbox game called EVE. Combat pvp niche is occupied, you may become content or have better luck next game, sucks to be below 105 million SP.
To any new player reading this, the entire quoted post is an enormous lie.
To any new player reading this, the player saying this has been hopping between various griefer groups explicitly targeting new players, occasionally being booted out of some of them for being bad even at griefing helpless newbies. I have doing pretty much nothing but helping newbros to understand the game since the Odyssey expansion, and he has been griefing them out of the game, running with his tail clapping his brick-hole from everything resembling equal force.
You either trust his word or mine. Choose wisely.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12198
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 12:46:35 -
[616] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Knowledge of mechanics.
You don't have any.
Heck, you are on record as claiming that docking is an exploit.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10247
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 12:54:44 -
[617] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Knowledge of mechanics. You don't have any. Heck, you are on record as claiming that docking is an exploit.
You know why that is right?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34970
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 12:55:01 -
[618] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:But I am against you lying to others. You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but as far as lies go, telling people they are not useless against SP wall in combat PvP of eve online is a lie, which I will keep pointing out.
I don't lie. It serves no useful purpose. My experience alone shows your claims to be wrong.
However, I suspect you know that your own story is rubbish, but it serves some purpose you have. It's nothing but intellectual dishonesty. It seems to be your nature.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10249
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:09:00 -
[619] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:But I am against you lying to others. You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but as far as lies go, telling people they are not useless against SP wall in combat PvP of eve online is a lie, which I will keep pointing out. I don't lie. It serves no useful purpose. My experience alone shows your claims to be wrong. However, I suspect you know that your own story is rubbish, but it serves some purpose you have. It's nothing but intellectual dishonesty, and a constant troll because you clearly don't want to take part in honest discussion here.
See my post above yours, it may not be an intentional lie, it may be...something even worse lol.
But there is another factor in discussions like this. Sometimes, people believe things because the HAVE to. Some people can't stand to fail/lose, it hurts their egos. So they make up excuses (or at least magnify and exaggerate causes) for why they failed as a defense mechanism. You can see it all day every day in these forums: "X blew me up, therefore X is unbalanced and CCP should do something because don't they know who the $#%^ I am??!?"
Someone who believes there is some kind of "SP wall" (when we know there isn't, smart low sp characters blow up stupid high sp characters all day long) probably got blown up a lot as a new player and needed a way to make themselves feel better about it. Mos tof us do that by either getting better, or understanding that we aren't going to get better and going to do something else lol. But a small minority of people can do neither, they keep doing and thinking the same way regardless of outcome because "it's always someone (or some thing) elses fault.
TL;DR: Someone admitting that SP isn't the most important thing in a game would be the same as that someone admitting they suck, and expecting someone to do that is unreasonable no matter how true that statement might be. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
147
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:11:35 -
[620] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Knowledge of mechanics. You don't have any. Heck, you are on record as claiming that docking is an exploit.
You have even less. Your record has much more shame on it.
1) Being booted from griefing alliance for being bad at griefing to join the one which picks up the worst.
2) Claiming that quitting corp is an exploit.
3) Being "leet hisec pvper" - that is, being afraid like hell of shooting something with a gun in low/null/wh where true pvp is.
Scipio Artelius wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:But I am against you lying to others. You can lie to yourself as much as you want, but as far as lies go, telling people they are not useless against SP wall in combat PvP of eve online is a lie, which I will keep pointing out. I don't lie. It serves no useful purpose. My experience alone shows your claims to be wrong. However, I suspect you know that your own story is rubbish, but it serves some purpose you have to just keep pushing it even when evidence shows it's wrong. It's nothing but intellectual dishonesty, and a constant troll because you clearly don't want to take part in honest discussion.
It serves perfect purpose of providing you with easy targets or more juicy baits of people who believe your crap.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12204
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:16:22 -
[621] - Quote
And look at the conspiracy theories fly.
Hey guys, turns out that new players, or anyone without 105million skillpoints, isn't actually effective at the game.
That's just a lie told by everyone in the game... for the past decade.
He actually finds this easier to believe than the truth that new players and low skillpoint pilots can be effective. Meanwhile, I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually be that bad at EVE.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10252
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:23:24 -
[622] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
It serves perfect purpose of providing you with easy targets or more juicy baits of people who believe your crap.
And this is the final proof right here. You don't know Scipio more than you know anyone else on the internet. Of all the posters I know on these forums, he's one of the more reasonable and even handed. He's not beating the drum for easy kills, his simply having a discussion about what he sees.
A person that has to fall back on guessing about someone else's 'evil motivations' is really saying something about themselves. Quote:The more that participants indicated a willingness to conspire, the more they found the same conspiracy theories to be plausible, interesting, and worth considering.
Further, the researchers found that participants who were highly Machiavellian -- defined as willing to exploit others for personal gain -- were more likely to indicate willingness to conspire, and as a result, were more likely to believe in conspiracy theories
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34976
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:24:26 -
[623] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:It serves perfect purpose of providing you with easy targets or more juicy baits of people who believe your crap.
Rubbish on all accounts.
Nothing you ever write further is worth anyone's time to consider and at least from my perspective, I'll no longer feed the troll.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
897
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:31:18 -
[624] - Quote
The hilarious thing is its opinions like Basil's that prove the danger of NPC corps. Opinions like his are poisonous, because not only are they his own, but every time he utters them, they have the very real chance of infecting some wide-eyed newbie, and outright murdering his enthusiasm for the game, which might not just drive them away, but lead them to repeat the lie to others.
These are the people that clog up NPC corp chat, who when some hopeful, enthusiastic player pipes up asking how they go in to nullsec, how they attack another player, or anything of the like, get told they can't. Not only do they get told they can't, but they get told that anyone who says they can is lying to them, and just wants to either lure them in to a trap, or use them as cannon-fodder. Sure, that happens from time to time, but I would lay money on the odds that more players walk away because they believe some "veterans" lies about a sp wall, than those who leap in and suffer an accident at another players hands.
There is a reason groups like us, TEST, and Brave, which have massively higher retention rates than the norm for the game as a whole, get our newbies the hell out of that environment as fast as humanly possible.
I know all this first hand. I waited til I was "tall enough to ride" (I was at 15mil sp before I left high) before getting in to the rest of the game, and I quit twice before going to hell with it, and taking the leap, and I knew immediately what a foolish mistake I had made waiting so long. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12208
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:39:23 -
[625] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
There is a reason groups like us, TEST, and Brave, which have massively higher retention rates than the norm for the game as a whole, get our newbies the hell out of that environment as fast as humanly possible.
Bingo. And that's what this is all about.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10255
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 13:45:45 -
[626] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:The hilarious thing is its opinions like Basil's that prove the danger of NPC corps. Opinions like his are poisonous, because not only are they his own, but every time he utters them, they have the very real chance of infecting some wide-eyed newbie, and outright murdering his enthusiasm for the game, which might not just drive them away, but lead them to repeat the lie to others.
These are the people that clog up NPC corp chat, who when some hopeful, enthusiastic player pipes up asking how they go in to nullsec, how they attack another player, or anything of the like, get told they can't. Not only do they get told they can't, but they get told that anyone who says they can is lying to them, and just wants to either lure them in to a trap, or use them as cannon-fodder. Sure, that happens from time to time, but I would lay money on the odds that more players walk away because they believe some "veterans" lies about a sp wall, than those who leap in and suffer an accident at another players hands.
There is a reason groups like us, TEST, and Brave, which have massively higher retention rates than the norm for the game as a whole, get our newbies the hell out of that environment as fast as humanly possible.
I know all this first hand. I waited til I was "tall enough to ride" (I was at 15mil sp before I left high) before getting in to the rest of the game, and I quit twice before going to hell with it, and taking the leap, and I knew immediately what a foolish mistake I had made waiting so long.
They almost did it to me.
The guy who introduced me to the game was great, we played another game together (he also introduced me to WoW but i don't hold that against him lol). He got me into a high sec mission running corp ran by a real life boyfriend/girlfriend team and they were nice people.
But they had that "I'll go to null when I'm ready" mentality and for my 1st year I was scared to DEATH of the idea of leaving high sec. My total 1st year pvp experience was having my rifter blown up by a Brutix in low sec (dude gave me all my loot back) and a couple of Roams with my buddy who had friends in BoB (my second pvp death was in a Brutix, blow up by an IRC gang that included the 1st Carrier I ever laid eyes on).
A short while later, CCP made faction warfare and i got into that and a few months later went to null with a group I met in faction warfare and i didn't have a lot of SP (i didn't even train my character for much of that time).
It was FUN. All I could do was mentally kick myself for listening to those 'nice but ignorant' high sec folks, I missed out of probably months of fun because of them (or rather because of my own stupidity in not knowing who to listen to)..
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
93
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 14:38:25 -
[627] - Quote
Awesome! Turns out that Mike Azariah, newly elected to CSM X, has been operating a program to get newbies more engaged by leading them on what sounds like the sort of NPSI fieldtrips I've been advocating here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=392189&find=unread
He states:
Quote:I started the project because of the This Is Eve video influx but it has grown legs and is now carrying me wildly forward. I am hanging on and enjoying the ride.
IMO, THIS is the sort of thing we need to get newbies engaged with the game and the player base. No some 50% NPC corp tax or the like.
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Warp to Cyno.
4327
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 14:51:32 -
[628] - Quote
i am firmly opposed to newbies enjoying any sort of entertainment until they've spent a minimum of one year doing highsec missions or three years mining which is why i tell them they can't pvp without fighter-bombers V |
Reislier
91
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 15:35:22 -
[629] - Quote
so.. 31 pages in and the question by the op remains unanswered.
Speculation.. all of it.. because there is no answer to the question. Everyone do as they do for many reason but the vocal few have all figured out. as always when this topic come up.. I have seen this debate a dozen times over years and always the same.. new faces.. same arguments.. all of it speculation because no one really understand at all why people play as they play. least of all CCP or they would have fixed long ago.. actually.. I think they do know.. but you people would not like answer.. instead of speculation.. look at actions in game.. is all there to see if you look.
and now as usual.. discussion becomes heated and the only real pvp in Eve begins to make appearance.
how typical of this place.. I predict lock will be soon.
Be nice. If nice not work, be civil. If civil not work, beat with iron pipe till bloody and still.
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Gallowmere Rorschach
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
958
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 15:51:01 -
[630] - Quote
Reislier wrote:Speculation.. all of it.. because there is no answer to the question. Everyone do as they do for many reason but the vocal few have all figured out. as always when this topic come up.. I have seen this debate a dozen times over years and always the same.. new faces.. same arguments.. all of it speculation because no one really understand at all why people play as they play. least of all CCP or they would have fixed long ago..
Everything quoted is extremely valid.
Everything you said beyond that point, just added your own personal speculation to the conversation.
There is a reason that there are many stories of psychologists and the like finding Eve intriguing. Even with as much as we know about human psychology, no two minds function the exact same on every level. Since Eve doesn't go the route of the standard fare MMO, and allows players to make their own choices with either knowledge or self-induced ignorance of the varying consequences, it makes for one hell of an interesting laboratory environment.
The fact is, we don't know why player X does Y, while player A does B, outside of what they say. What they say may not be true either. They may even be lying to themselves. We just don't know.
All we really can follow, is trends in data in response to varying stimuli. Unfortunately, there isn't a single person in this thread who has access to that kind of data.
Thus, we have two options: speculation, or silence. |
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
150
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 23:22:40 -
[631] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Awesome! Turns out that Mike Azariah, newly elected to CSM X, has been operating a program to get newbies more engaged by leading them on what sounds like the sort of NPSI fieldtrips I've been advocating here. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=392189&find=unread
He states: Quote:I started the project because of the This Is Eve video influx but it has grown legs and is now carrying me wildly forward. I am hanging on and enjoying the ride. IMO, THIS is the sort of thing we need to get newbies engaged with the game and the player base. No some 50% NPC corp tax or the like.
Mike Azariah is proved to be a failure of a candidate again. Like I were saying, the retention of people ready to take the self-abuse of hitting the SP wall of eve combat PvP with their face is already peak. Honestly, there is so much of these masochists, I'd rather see some of them go. There is no need for improvement in this area.
The area in need of improvements is those poor souls who come not to bore themselves with a combat pvp snorefest, and not to wait years before getting enough SP to be good at it. Traders are rekt by the dumbing down of suicide wanking to the point even my dog can be successful at it. Miners are rekt ever since Odyssey, and getting rekt again in April (yes, I have no clue about the changes, but I can't find anything good for the hisec miner in the way it is going to be done). Missioners face the "SP wall lite" - it takes a lot of skills to even START grinding standings with any efficiency, and L4s can't be done in a Rifter. Incursions are no newbie business. PI is taken over by greedos with POCOs. Hisec exploration is rekt, except combat sites, which are very heavily contested.
There is basically nothing a guy without a weird drive to facewall the SP wall issue can occupy himself with, and that is where retention is needed until he overcomes the SP wall one way or another.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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BravoPrime
Garoun Investment Bank
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 23:24:10 -
[632] - Quote
Players stay in Nov cops for one reason. CODE |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34988
|
Posted - 2015.03.20 23:53:20 -
[633] - Quote
BravoPrime wrote:Players stay in Nov cops for one reason. CODE
Ganking is not limited to players in player run Corps only, so your view is intriguing.
Why would staying in an NPC Corp provide you protection from CODE?
Aside from that question, if players are staying in NPC Corps because of a belief that this somehow protects them from CODE, then hopefully CCP can overcome that with changes they make, because it's clear that CCP believe that social activity: joining Corps, using the market and contract system, pvping, etc. is the best way to improve the chance that a player will stay within the game.
With CCP Rise's work on the NPE, I expect there to be more focus on things like using the market and contracts, getting involved in industry and other PVE activities that encourage interaction with other players activities; and hopefully also in encouraging players to move to player-run Corps because it ends up being what they want to do.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Gardav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 01:14:39 -
[634] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I want you to very explicitly describe the process you are claiming happens and the attributes of an NPC corp specifically that drive that process.
You stated the NPE pushes people into PvE, which I can agree with, but that says nothing of NPC corps. The NPE could be gutted without touching the NPC corps. So how do they, the corps, specifically feed into this. I need to know how that works, not just what you claim the ends are, to make sense of this.
Are you serious? Okay, laid out for you: NPC corps are immune to wars. Therefore, they attract people who do not want to engage in any PvP or player interaction in general. These people, whose whole reason for being in an NPC corp is to avoid player interaction, are the first people that newbies see, the first group they get to interact with. Get it yet?
If I may respond to your statements here I would appreciate the opportunity to add to the discussion on points you raised. ( I am also a bonafide real NPC Corp Player. All my characters are in NPC Corps.)
Do you know WHY some of us are "anti-social" as you call it in EVE?
Because of past interactions with Players in Corps like CODE and similar Corps, as well as Wardec Corps of Industrial Corps that view everyone as a threat in Hi-Sec. CCP lost subscription money from me because of Corps like CODE. I am not blaming you specifically, just the Corp type and focus, the general "gameplay style" choice.
Some of us are not here playing EVE because we want to fight in PvP or join Alliances that seek to gain control of most of Null Sec, rather we actually dislike those kinds of activities and focus, even though that is why CCP made EVE.. We play EVE because it is a great Space Simulation, because CCP has done a very good job at creating a believable and enjoyable virtual space experience, and it has thousands of other Players to share that experience with When and If we choose to do so. We play to fly Space Ships and enjoy this virtual Space CCP has made.
I'm not interested in looking for a replacement for EVE because of the PvP features because there is no replacement for EVE. If I want this kind of awesome virtual space experience I need to "fly in New Eden.The only way to un-attract me from EVE is to take away 50% or more of the artistic beauty of EVE and gut it's feature list, in essence making it akin to other cheap games that attempted to create a Space game and failed. Remove NPC Corps all together if you wish that will not force me to leave EVE, nor will that entice me to join a Player Corp.
In the past Players that claim what you do, and that acted on their claims, made my experience of EVE enough of a headache that I unsubscribed for months, even years. CCP lost money and I lost time in a game I love. I have been a customer of EVE since 2004, but it wasn't EVE I disliked, it was some of the Players I did not interact well with because of differences in why Players play EVE. I no longer join any Player Corps simply because it's too difficult to find other like minded Players that aren't lying through their teeth because their a spy alt and other such nonsense. EVE Online and all the Freedom it gives also is the biggest reason not to be Social, because in EVE being Social is an open invite to others to "Play" you.
I am going to say that again for clarification: It is NOT CCP that "encouraged" me to un-subscribe from a game I enjoy, it was some of the Players themselves, especially Players in Corps like CODE, the Miner Hunters, participants in Hulkaggedon events, etc. (I am not trying to break forum posting rules here, it's just aweful hard for me to say what I wish to say without being specific)
There are some good trustworthy People that Play EVE, People I would love to be a member of a Corp with, but this game attracts many who aren't trustworthy. I have batted ZERO in my attempts to find a Corp that I agree with so I nolonger look. CCP would have to completely change the focus of EVE to fix that problem. I personally think that's why only 10% find a home in a Corp and 40% stay in NPC corps. My opinion of course.
CCP can take out the NPC Corps, they can alter and adjust the NPE all they want, but the truth from my point of view is that some of us simply do not get along with some other Players (socially) because of differences in why we play EVE and how we play it, and especially the ethics we use while we play it, and that is not something CCP can fix without destroying what EVE IS. Changing EVE to Suit me or to suit any particular group could ruin EVE in the long term and I don't want to see that happen so I don't ask for changes.
The benefits of Freedom in a Sandbox outweigh the loss of Ships and ISK when I am attacked without provocation. The Freedom to NOT join a Player Corp and the Freedom to NOT attack others ingame are as important to me as the Freedom for others to Attack me without provocation is to them. I share this MMO with everyone but that does not mean I have to play it like others want me to.
See you all in Space... no matter what happens. |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
65
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 04:30:41 -
[635] - Quote
BravoPrime wrote:Players stay in Nov cops for one reason. CODE
You don't need a wardec to suicide gank.
ßòª( -í° -£-û -í°)ßòñ Hi, I'm Blob and I like to Blog.
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
1922
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 06:22:10 -
[636] - Quote
Why is this thread even still open? It's long since devolved into whining, flaming and trolling.
People stay in NPC corps for their own reasons and that's justification enough.
Can we just close this stale old book now, please?
When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
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Thora Zhubilai
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 11:32:17 -
[637] - Quote
I think some here are using the terms "PvP" or "Player Interaction" in a small minded way....in reallity they mean Pew pew!
As far i know:
Mining,
Reprocessing and Producing,
Trading,
Hauling,
Missioning...
...are also PvP.
So, what's the problem some have....
It's a sandbox, and you (or i) can do what ever you (i) want to do.
No!
what ever will be changed, never i go join a fleet for a "Pew Pew Party".
And NO i don't need any kind of "Spacelord" above me witch telling me, what i have to do, what ship, fitting i have to use.
I don't need a Alliance witch look's like the old Sowjetunion, with "Forbidden Zones" and similar Crap.
I went in null for 14 months and be happy to have leave it.
That's the Freedom of a sandbox.
You can come and blow up my ship...i have no problems with.
What you you not will get is a Fight.
.....
"If you go after me
warn your police
that I'll be unarmed
and that they can shoot."
Hi all!
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Malcaz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 11:46:39 -
[638] - Quote
It is tiresome to see people in eve online always try to dictate how other people must be playing... It is a sandbox game, every way of playing the game is as legitimate as other ones. |
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2239
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 11:47:57 -
[639] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote: Beats me why players who are NOT members of NPC corporations post in this thread.
Hey, we all have alts =p |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12221
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 11:50:06 -
[640] - Quote
Gardav wrote:
Do you know WHY some of us are "anti-social" as you call it in EVE? *snip*
While that might be your case in particular, CCP disagrees that it's a widespread issue.
If you find it so objectionable to be shot at in a PvP game, that simply can't be helped. But do not try to claim it's the general rule, as so many carebears before you have done so dishonestly. Because it quite simply isn't true.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
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Malcaz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 12:01:51 -
[641] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Not only do they get told they can't, but they get told that anyone who says they can is lying to them, and just wants to either lure them in to a trap, or use them as cannon-fodder (look, its an evil Goonie, CODEie alt!). Goons would never do anything like this such as with recruitment scams. Never.
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Gardav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 14:19:57 -
[642] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Gardav wrote:
Do you know WHY some of us are "anti-social" as you call it in EVE? *snip*
While that might be your case in particular, CCP disagrees that it's a widespread issue. If you find it so objectionable to be shot at in a PvP game, that simply can't be helped. But do not try to claim it's the general rule, as so many carebears before you have done so dishonestly. Because it quite simply isn't true.
I used the words "I" and "myself" several times in my post. I tried my best to emphasize that I was speaking from my own experiences.
I have also had a handful of real life friends try out EVE and all of them quit for exactly the reasons I mentioned; Too much unwanted "interaction" from other Players. None of them will return to EVE even though I have tried talking them into it. The numbers CCP released also speak to this phenomena that only 10% join Player Corps and 40% avoid Player Corps for whatever reason.... what's the number one common denominator here? In my opinion, Players are the prime variable.
If my comments resonate so soundly with the comments of others that play the game in a similar fashion as I do maybe there is a reason why that is so? Trust me, I am not collaborating with any other Players in EVE on this thread, my comments are mine and mine alone.
I have nothing against you Kaarous Aldurald. Your gameplay style and your Corps mission are just as valid as anyone else's. We just see this problem from different sides and we may possibly never agree on what the solution should be. When I said Players in Corps such as your own were the primary reason why I quit EVE it wasn't because I am on a Witch Hunt, I pointed it out to show how Players with different gameplay styles can adversely affect other Players in a Sandbox MMO, and in particular this MMO.
And for the record... I have no problem being shot AT. I expect it. I stay at my keyboard for when it does happen. Why I play EVE the way I do is my choice. I don't tell you that you have to stop what you're doing and or how you should do it. Your Free Will in EVE is your own as is mine. If you want to shoot at a Miner working a asteroid belt then look me up, at least then my situational awareness will be put to good use.
See You in Space.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
97
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 16:44:49 -
[643] - Quote
Huh. Right now on the Fanfest Stream, a discussion on small gang NPSI as a way to get new players more involved.
Hopefully this concept gains more and more interest. Much better way to improve new player retention, IMO, than high NPC corp taxes. |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
24008
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 17:07:51 -
[644] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Huh. Right now on the Fanfest Stream, a discussion on small gang NPSI as a way to get new players more involved. Hopefully this concept gains more and more interest. Much better way to improve new player retention, IMO, than high NPC corp taxes.
Yes, being in RvB will make you enjoy EVE more than sitting in a typical NPC corp.
You're telling us as if you made a new discovery today..
#afkleadership Gü+Gü+Gü+ -óߦªß¦ç-ó Gü+Gü+Gü+
EVE:Valkyrie pilot unmasked (her name is Ran)
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Taru Hinken
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 17:12:52 -
[645] - Quote
Why am i in a NPC corp? Well mostly because i hate the idea of interviews and reports for a game. I have been to many different games and never have i had to insert a 5 page report on my self to join a corp,group,guild or team. I play this game to have fun not to submit to pointless rule 3.152 . Or have to report for weekly (sometimes more...far more ) board meetings. Why? Why put myself through that? I do that in RL. I WILL NOT SUBMIT MY FREE TIME DO DO THE SAME
Also Kaarous Aldurald i find it funny how you fight so hard when a player suggests a ganking nerf but when it comes to NPC corps you seem to want "just one more nerf" like all the rest.  |
Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4152
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 17:34:48 -
[646] - Quote
There's another reason players remain in NPC corporations: Faction Warfare. If you want to join (or at least try out) Faction Warfare, your entire corporation has to join. Not only does it take 24 hours to take effect (so you can't get into it immediately), but everyone in the corporation then becomes a valid target in high-sec (whether they wanted to participate or not). In an NPC corporation, you can basically join and leave Faction Warfare instantly without affecting your play style, your friends, etc.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Miomeifeng Alduin
Lithonauts Inc.
73
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 18:35:30 -
[647] - Quote
Taru Hinken wrote:Why am i in a NPC corp? Well mostly because i hate the idea of interviews and reports for a game. I have been to many different games and never have i had to insert a 5 page report on my self to join a corp,group,guild or team. I play this game to have fun not to submit to pointless rule 3.152 . Or have to report for weekly (sometimes more...far more ) board meetings. Why? Why put myself through that? I do that in RL. I WILL NOT SUBMIT MY FREE TIME TO DO THE SAME
^ this. Most job interviews require less info than most player corps want. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10277
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 18:42:34 -
[648] - Quote
Gardav wrote:
I have also had a handful of real life friends try out EVE and all of them quit for exactly the reasons I mentioned; Too much unwanted "interaction" from other Players. None of them will return to EVE even though I have tried talking them into it. The numbers CCP released also speak to this phenomena that only 10% join Player Corps and 40% avoid Player Corps for whatever reason.... what's the number one common denominator here? In my opinion, Players and Player Corps are the prime variable.
If a person doesn't want 'unwanted interaction', why would they play a game where unwanted interaction is at the heart of it's design? It's like jumping into an ocean then protesting how wet it is.
I just can't say it enough, most people who play EVE have a certain predisposition and mind set that allows them to fit in with the game. Some people who play don't but play out of spite (or because they are those types that 'like a challenge' and believe they can 'change things for the better' not unlike that woman everyone knows that always finds herself with some crappy/stupid/abusive dude who has 'potential' lol). But most people who are not cut out for the game try it, realize they do't like it and quit early, and they are smart to do so.
Themepark games (ie most mmos) are the ones that concentrate on your comfort and want you to be 'safe' from unwanted interaction. That's why I hate most mmos and love EVE, I can take care of myself perfectly fine and don't need nanny state level coddling to exist. So when people come on here and basically advocate for more handholding (in a video game...) I always ask them the same thing: Why not play a game you actually like and leave this game that we actually like to us?
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4088
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 19:30:25 -
[649] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.
The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4153
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 19:33:26 -
[650] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:If a person doesn't want 'unwanted interaction', why would they play a game where unwanted interaction is at the heart of it's design? It's like jumping into an ocean then protesting how wet it is.
More like they enjoy the scenery are are merely content to lay on the beach.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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|
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Ciel993
Vision Partners
End of Natural Lifetime
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 19:54:19 -
[651] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:[
If a person doesn't want 'unwanted interaction', why would they play a game where unwanted interaction is at the heart of it's design? It's like jumping into an ocean then protesting how wet it is.
Ok, I'll just join this conversation a bit...
I honestly hate unwanted interaction, but I know it's part of what make this game unique.
I am a shy person IRL and in-game, I have trouble start or end conversation, and I absolutly hate socializing with strangers.
However, I am still here, staying and playing eve, and the reason is actually really really really simple and straightforward:
spaceship!
I like sci-fi, I like reading classic sci-fi literatures, I absolutly love when a sci-fi setting manage to create a unique, immersive, intriguing and detailed background and guess what my biggest dream since childhood is? To fly a spaceship and roam across the stars to see all kind of wonderous things in space.
And here comes eve, the only scifi space-background MMO on the market that has managed to create an actual space environment, has intriguing background setting, and in addition, a bunch of other unique features such as player-drriven environment, real-life-ish market, and etc. So why shouldn't I play it? It's not like there could ever be a game that fit my taste perfectly. "So why not eve?" I told myself. Yup, for me, the single, most important reason for playing eve is spaceship, anything else are merely bonuses that I sometime like, sometime don't.
And here I am, someone with socialize trouble, yet playing eve, and I have to say I enjoy it so far
See you in space (although unlikely, due to its timeless boundaries and infinite horizons) |
Arthur Aihaken
Narada
4155
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 20:00:07 -
[652] - Quote
Yes, let's be perfectly honest: EVE is very visually appealing.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
98
|
Posted - 2015.03.21 20:44:42 -
[653] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Huh. Right now on the Fanfest Stream, a discussion on small gang NPSI as a way to get new players more involved. Hopefully this concept gains more and more interest. Much better way to improve new player retention, IMO, than high NPC corp taxes. Yes, being in RvB will make you enjoy EVE more than sitting in a typical NPC corp. You're telling us as if you made a new discovery today..
But I DIDN'T tell you that being in RvB is more enjoyable than being in an NPC corp - I told you I think veteran players taking new players out on NPSI field trips is a great way to get new players engaged in the social aspects of the game. (It works quite well for CAS, an NPC corp full of socially engaged players. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
150
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 03:32:48 -
[654] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:If a person doesn't want 'unwanted interaction', why would they play a game where unwanted interaction is at the heart of it's design? It's like jumping into an ocean then protesting how wet it is.
Because it isn't? It's always wanted interaction for at least one side.
Jenn aSide wrote:I just can't say it enough, most people who play EVE have a certain predisposition and mind set that allows them to fit in with the game. Some people who play don't but play out of spite (or because they are those types that 'like a challenge' and believe they can 'change things for the better' not unlike that woman everyone knows that always finds herself with some crappy/stupid/abusive dude who has 'potential' lol). But most people who are not cut out for the game try it, realize they do't like it and quit early, and they are smart to do so.
Facewalling an SP wall is closer to a masochism than predisposition, and plenty of people have that.
Jenn aSide wrote:Themepark games (ie most mmos) are the ones that concentrate on your comfort and want you to be 'safe' from unwanted interaction. That's why I hate most mmos and love EVE, I can take care of myself perfectly fine and don't need nanny state level coddling to exist. So when people come on here and basically advocate for more handholding (in a video game...) I always ask them the same thing: Why not play a game you actually like and leave this game that we actually like to us?
Don't confuse your own goals. Your goal is a steady source of easy targets to grief dec. Which is why you don't like NPC corps.
Because they won't have bothered you in the slightest otherwise - nobody here advocated "handholding", and anyone can tell you in which safespot on your body you should stuff your armor fit drake of an opinion about how they should play.
People play for fun. If eve is fun for them, who are you to tell them to go away and have their fun anywhere else, when you are the main beneficiary of them having fun here? You already have unprecedented capabilities to steal the fun away from them, in fact, there are too many of them right now.
So what if they play like in a theme park game? "Press on this doll where gnome touched you" (c). They pay their subs, they pay your plex, show some appreciation.
Bottom line is, unless all you need is an easy target to grief, NPC corps won't have possibly bothered you. Because all they do is provide protection from just one way of being griefed. And unless you do it, you shouldn't care about it. And they don't decrease retention half as much as people like you do, if you actually care about them.
And here I will repeat the line which got routinely moderatorbiased out: The retention of people who are ready to be content in form of tolerating the process of repeatedly hitting their face against "SP wall" is already peak. The retention of people who do not wish to be bittervet food for their money is what's in trouble. There are only TWO types of content available to a newbie currently - mining and exploration, and both got rekt for the sake of nullsec retention already, so it's no freaking miracle that they couldn't possibly keep a newbie occupied for any reasonable period necessary to become involved. That's why NPSI crap is worthless, because losing ships sucks and newbies from not already-perfect-retention category would quit instantly on this. What's needed is more engaging content. Epic ark is pretty good, but it's short, and it's practically one-of-a-kind. New newbie anoms might be a good idea, but I haven't seen them yet to make sure. But as long as there are only 2 rekt professions remain a regular-game-mid-term or eve-short-term choices for a newbie not wishing to be a bittervet food, the retention is going to suffer. Either we need to unrekt those (not happening to mining, don't know about exploration), or introduce new ones.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 06:28:39 -
[655] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:If a person doesn't want 'unwanted interaction', why would they play a game where unwanted interaction is at the heart of it's design? It's like jumping into an ocean then protesting how wet it is. Because it isn't? It's always wanted interaction for at least one side. Jenn aSide wrote:I just can't say it enough, most people who play EVE have a certain predisposition and mind set that allows them to fit in with the game. Some people who play don't but play out of spite (or because they are those types that 'like a challenge' and believe they can 'change things for the better' not unlike that woman everyone knows that always finds herself with some crappy/stupid/abusive dude who has 'potential' lol). But most people who are not cut out for the game try it, realize they do't like it and quit early, and they are smart to do so. Facewalling an SP wall is closer to a masochism than predisposition, and plenty of people have that. Jenn aSide wrote:Themepark games (ie most mmos) are the ones that concentrate on your comfort and want you to be 'safe' from unwanted interaction. That's why I hate most mmos and love EVE, I can take care of myself perfectly fine and don't need nanny state level coddling to exist. So when people come on here and basically advocate for more handholding (in a video game...) I always ask them the same thing: Why not play a game you actually like and leave this game that we actually like to us?
Don't confuse your own goals. Your goal is a steady source of easy targets to grief dec. Which is why you don't like NPC corps. Because they won't have bothered you in the slightest otherwise - nobody here advocated "handholding", and anyone can tell you in which safespot on your body you should stuff your armor fit drake of an opinion about how they should play. People play for fun. If eve is fun for them, who are you to tell them to go away and have their fun anywhere else, when you are the main beneficiary of them having fun here? You already have unprecedented capabilities to steal the fun away from them, in fact, there are too many of them right now. So what if they play like in a theme park game? "Press on this doll where gnome touched you" (c). They pay their subs, they pay your plex, show some appreciation. Bottom line is, unless all you need is an easy target to grief, NPC corps won't have possibly bothered you. Because all they do is provide protection from just one way of being griefed. And unless you do it, you shouldn't care about it. And they don't decrease retention half as much as people like you do, if you actually care about them. And here I will repeat the line which got routinely moderatorbiased out: The retention of people who are ready to be content in form of tolerating the process of repeatedly hitting their face against "SP wall" is already peak. The retention of people who do not wish to be bittervet food for their money is what's in trouble. There are only TWO types of content available to a newbie currently - mining and exploration, and both got rekt for the sake of nullsec retention already, so it's no freaking miracle that they couldn't possibly keep a newbie occupied for any reasonable period necessary to become involved. That's why NPSI crap is worthless, because losing ships sucks and newbies from not already-perfect-retention category would quit instantly on this. What's needed is more engaging content. Epic ark is pretty good, but it's short, and it's practically one-of-a-kind. New newbie anoms might be a good idea, but I haven't seen them yet to make sure. But as long as there are only 2 rekt professions remain a regular-game-mid-term or eve-short-term choices for a newbie not wishing to be a bittervet food, the retention is going to suffer. Either we need to unrekt those (not happening to mining, don't know about exploration), or introduce new ones.
To be fair, you can also find an accepting blob like E-uni or brave or an FW corp and ***** on killmails in a t1 fit frigate. You can also make ALOT of ISK in FW in a t1 frigate.
Some people (myself included) don't get super excited about being +1 to a blob. If we get a decent fleet scrap it's nice but it's more often just running down and melting small gangs and solo targets.
Inb4 "SP DOESN'T MATTER" for the thousandth time.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 06:36:37 -
[656] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec. Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth. None of which really has much to do with the topic.
Most of the people crying about NPC corps are highsec "pvp'ers" who feel they are being unfairly deprived of easy targets.
Most people who do their shooting in other areas of space against things not shittanked mining barges could care less about NPC corps.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
153
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 06:39:39 -
[657] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
And what keeps veterans from creating characters to counter the supposed carebear influence?
Because we actually like to play the game. Those of us who enjoy wardecs and PvP cannot do so in an NPC corp barring suicide ganking. We are effectively forbidden from interacting with new players at the basic stage of development. We can't? (scratches head in confusion) Then what's all this PvP I and my fleet have been engaging in? While at the same time welcoming newbies who stop by, even chatting in NPC corp chat? Stop by Syndicate a week from Saturday, you'll see a sizeable fleet of NPC corp members, newbies and veterans alike, engaging in a ton of PvP, blowing stuff up and being blown up and having a great time at it. Quote:That needs to change, that's my whole point in all of this. The new player experience needs to stop being exclusively carebear friendly Definitely. Quote:and that means changing NPC corps. Not at all.
You're talking about people who can fight back competently. That's not the objective here.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
154
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 06:52:07 -
[658] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:[quote=Valkin Mordirc]
100M SP wins. Just look at the other toon's KB, 25m isn't enough to skill into every racial t2/t3 cruiser and every weapon system to a competent degree, you should easily be able to work out a counter to his likely fit. Whereas the 100M toon can bring any race t3/t2 or faction to the fight with full skills in every related area. 100M has a huge advantage because he has a full range of options and is thus totally inpredictable in what he can undock.
I have 23M sp, if someone looks at my killboard they know I'm bringing a gallente cruiser or BS. That's critical knowledge and there's fuckall I can do about it.
No it doesn't. There is a finite of SP that will go into Cruiser and fitting skills. A 100mil SP Will not have EVERY ship at his disposal. I have over 15bil in Hard assets. But I have to go TO those assets to use them. If I'm roaming. I DO NOT have access to them. Why is that so hard to understand? NOT every fight happens on the undock. Not ever fight I'm in a ship I'm perfectly spec in. Also I have 35mil, I don't pay attention to SP counter, because I know it's not relevant.
I can't do the math right now on the SP total for all 4 racial cruiser lines up to T3 with all critical skills and weapons including full drones. I suspect it's rather alot. 100M SP should have it covered. 25M will be lacking.
If you pvp in highsec with 15B in assets and don't have a decent selection of advanced/faction cruisers at every hub you are doing it wrong.
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
237
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 07:28:11 -
[659] - Quote
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:
^ this. Most job interviews require less info than most player corps want.
complete lies. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
237
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 08:09:29 -
[660] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote: NPC corp players can not create capital ships or do anything hugely important in EVE>
they can supply the ore to build one.
Commander Spurty wrote:WarDecs are dumb, just like their White Knights.
they are not dumb, they may be a little broken but not dumb.
Commander Spurty wrote: WarDecs inhibit people that like to blow stuff up leaving highsec and going to low / null.
End of story.
i didn't understand the last bit at all
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Valkin Mordirc
811
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 08:31:37 -
[661] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I can't do the math right now on the SP total for all 4 racial cruiser lines up to T3 with all critical skills and weapons including full drones. I suspect it's rather alot. 100M SP should have it covered. 25M will be lacking.
If you pvp in highsec with 15B in assets and don't have a decent selection of advanced/faction cruisers at every hub you are doing it wrong.
I have a lot of things in a certain Trade hub, your probably right there. 
Asides from that. and being completely asides the point, and being low blow...bastard.
You are ignoring that fact that I don't have 60 bowheads following me at all times. Why is that hard to understand? Stop cherry picking and realize when to comes to a point. SP ceases to matter, if you truly believe that SP is a critical part of Combat, I'm very sorry but it's keep you from getting better.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
34994
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 08:33:07 -
[662] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Gimme Sake wrote:You don't understand, let me explain: they pvp only in high sec. Yeah, there's no pvp in lowsec or nullsec. It's a myth. None of which really has much to do with the topic. Most of the people crying about NPC corps are highsec "pvp'ers" who feel they are being unfairly deprived of easy targets. Most people who do their shooting in other areas of space against things not shittanked mining barges could care less about NPC corps.
Wrong on several accounts.
Firstly, no one is crying here. It's just a discussion and everyone is entitled to put their view, no matter what it is. It's not crying to do so.
Secondly, I do all my shooting in lowsec and nullsec, yet I'm very interested in this issue for several reasons. Of course, I'm only one person and not necessarily representative of 'most people' I guess, but that's where making judgments about others is always frought with the risk of being wrong. Issues can be discussed by everyone here without resorting to judgments about people who have a different opinion.
But none of that related to the post I responded to anyway.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 08:48:41 -
[663] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I can't do the math right now on the SP total for all 4 racial cruiser lines up to T3 with all critical skills and weapons including full drones. I suspect it's rather alot. 100M SP should have it covered. 25M will be lacking.
If you pvp in highsec with 15B in assets and don't have a decent selection of advanced/faction cruisers at every hub you are doing it wrong.
I have a lot of things in a certain Trade hub, your probably right there. Asides from that. and being completely asides the point, and being low blow...bastard. Also if you can't do the math then your purely speculation is just that speculation. I can fly every cruiser near perfect. From Cerb to Zealot. By near perfect it's mean the weapon specialization but that 2% is bullshit I don't wanna deal with, You are ignoring that fact that I don't have 60 bowheads following me at all times. Why is that hard to understand? Stop cherry picking and realize when to comes to a point. SP ceases to matter, if you truly believe that SP is a critical part of Combat, I'm very sorry but it's keep you from getting better.
It takes like, 5 minutes to make a couple of jumps and reship. Besides, you are hunting your targets with neutral scouts you should know their ship type(s) and likely fit before undocking.
I know for a fact 25M SP will not give you anywhere near mastery of every racial cruiser line because I have 23M and I'm not even done with Gallente. Give or take a few million SP due to my skilling into frigates and level IV of Gallente BS/BC and large hybrids, the point still stands. Being able to undock ANY tech 2/3 cruiser with near perfect skills is a major advantage. I don't really see how anyone can take issue with that.
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Prince Kobol
2481
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 09:05:14 -
[664] - Quote
Nothing will change as it is the nature of the game.
The same can be said for new player retention.
Until CCP vastly improve the facilities for searching for a new corp and improve the value of HS Corps then nothing will change |
Valkin Mordirc
812
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 09:27:17 -
[665] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I can't do the math right now on the SP total for all 4 racial cruiser lines up to T3 with all critical skills and weapons including full drones. I suspect it's rather alot. 100M SP should have it covered. 25M will be lacking.
If you pvp in highsec with 15B in assets and don't have a decent selection of advanced/faction cruisers at every hub you are doing it wrong.
I have a lot of things in a certain Trade hub, your probably right there. Asides from that. and being completely asides the point, and being low blow...bastard. Also if you can't do the math then your purely speculation is just that speculation. I can fly every cruiser near perfect. From Cerb to Zealot. By near perfect it's mean the weapon specialization but that 2% is bullshit I don't wanna deal with, You are ignoring that fact that I don't have 60 bowheads following me at all times. Why is that hard to understand? Stop cherry picking and realize when to comes to a point. SP ceases to matter, if you truly believe that SP is a critical part of Combat, I'm very sorry but it's keep you from getting better. It takes like, 5 minutes to make a couple of jumps and reship. Besides, you are hunting your targets with neutral scouts you should know their ship type(s) and likely fit before undocking. I know for a fact 25M SP will not give you anywhere near mastery of every racial cruiser line because I have 23M and I'm not even done with Gallente. Give or take a few million SP due to my skilling into frigates and level IV of Gallente BS/BC and large hybrids, the point still stands. Being able to undock ANY tech 2/3 cruiser with near perfect skills is a major advantage. I don't really see how anyone can take issue with that.
" Five minutes to get to a place, reship and head back out to where my scout is"
I give up. You're so stuck on this idea that SP matters that you are either ignoring relevant points I'm giving, dodging them, or somehow have become so obsessed with the idea that you are subconsciously diverting everything said to you so it can fit within your own realms of reasoning.
Normally this would make me mad,
Sadly all I really feel is pity that you will never understand that you have a chance in EvE.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2240
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 11:10:12 -
[666] - Quote
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:Taru Hinken wrote:Why am i in a NPC corp? Well mostly because i hate the idea of interviews and reports for a game. I have been to many different games and never have i had to insert a 5 page report on my self to join a corp,group,guild or team. I play this game to have fun not to submit to pointless rule 3.152 . Or have to report for weekly (sometimes more...far more ) board meetings. Why? Why put myself through that? I do that in RL. I WILL NOT SUBMIT MY FREE TIME TO DO THE SAME
^ this. Most job interviews require less info than most player corps want.
Info about your space life and your space bank account and your space car and space life insurance and space medical history.
Yeah I'm sure real jobs are super interested in those things. |
Valkin Mordirc
815
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 11:13:36 -
[667] - Quote
Kiandoshia wrote:Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:Taru Hinken wrote:Why am i in a NPC corp? Well mostly because i hate the idea of interviews and reports for a game. I have been to many different games and never have i had to insert a 5 page report on my self to join a corp,group,guild or team. I play this game to have fun not to submit to pointless rule 3.152 . Or have to report for weekly (sometimes more...far more ) board meetings. Why? Why put myself through that? I do that in RL. I WILL NOT SUBMIT MY FREE TIME TO DO THE SAME
^ this. Most job interviews require less info than most player corps want. Info about your space life and your space bank account and your space car and space life insurance and space medical history. Yeah I'm sure real jobs are super interested in those things.
Don't forget about the Space Duck
Majestic Space ducks.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
401
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 11:25:50 -
[668] - Quote
Skill Points are very important...
Just last week, I was out clubbing and I asked this bar hottie to dance. She says "Hang on fella, just how many SP DOES your Main have"?
I says "130 Million"
She says "Forget the dance lover, lets go to your place and you can dock your Titan into my POS. It has a real tight back door". |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
155
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 12:29:25 -
[669] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:To be fair, you can also find an accepting blob like E-uni or brave or an FW corp and ***** on killmails in a t1 fit frigate. You can also make ALOT of ISK in FW in a t1 frigate.
I'm completely aware of that, now tell me, how the newbie is supposed to be aware of that?
He's got the mining tutorial, he's got the exploration tutorial, he can pretty much do entry level content of those professions either right away or within a week, and make his choice.
Faction warfare has no tutorial, has several "WARNING" banners on it like it's super dangerous, and a real newbie runs almost certain risk of losing all his ships. He doesn't know jack **** about LP, because there is no tutorial on LP, and the whole concept and value of LP is not something people know from their birth. FW also has rules, which are even harder than LP, and needs skills (like D-scanning) newbies ain't born with either.
Thus, while I'm aware and agree you can make ALOT of ISK in FW in a t1 frigate, I disagree that it's accessible to a real newbie. Surely he can do it in a corp, but that will most likely be a pvp corp, which is naturally bad fit for people who aren't ready to be content. Which brings me back to my initial point: The retention of people who are ready to become content in form of providing easy kills of themselves to an SP wall mechanics - is already peak, and doesn't need any further improvement.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
12233
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 12:34:24 -
[670] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:The retention of people who are ready to become content in form of providing easy kills of themselves to an SP wall mechanics - is already peak, and doesn't need any further improvement.
Note the pure, unadulterated selfishness inherent in this statement.
Translates easily into "we already have too many of those people I don't like".
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
|
|
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Taru Hinken
State War Academy
Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 12:56:51 -
[671] - Quote
The thing is why bother going for a player corp? Its far more work then it is worth.Why must i submit space emails and space credit history to work as a team mining rocks, exploring WH space,working for a indy group or missioning(Not limited API they want full and a interview)? I should not need to jump through flaming hoops for that. And the bonus is what? You get a corp chat box and a bunch of rules on what you are going to do with your in game time oh and you can be wardeced . After all that you get a chat box, rules and wardecs? I have a chat box in the NPC corp and i have no extra requirements. So why should i join a player corp? |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
156
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 12:57:52 -
[672] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:The retention of people who are ready to become content in form of providing easy kills of themselves to an SP wall mechanics - is already peak, and doesn't need any further improvement. Note the pure, unadulterated selfishness inherent in this statement. Translates easily into "we already have too many of those people I don't like".
You didn't need to translate, because I said something similar openly about two pages ago.
I've got only one problem with those people though, it's that they won't go against each other, and prefer to only get easy kills, and not just easy, but literally easier kills than red crosses are.
Like the famous CODE - Marmite war, where either side has laughed off any attempt of direct pvp as "lol who does that", and instead went doing what they both do best - ganking of "blue alt, do not gank" list members, pre-exchanged while they were cozy with each other.
There, I said it again. Now be a gentleman, tell me something straight as well, what in the world prevents you from shooting something with guns?
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Valkin Mordirc
817
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 13:24:43 -
[673] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: Random incoherent rant that has been going on for past 15 or so pages
http://evewho.com/pilot/Basil+Pupkin
"Mentally Unstable Person"
#DeleteTheWeak
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Miomeifeng Alduin
Lithonauts Inc.
76
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 16:42:43 -
[674] - Quote
Kiandoshia wrote:Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:Taru Hinken wrote:Why am i in a NPC corp? Well mostly because i hate the idea of interviews and reports for a game. I have been to many different games and never have i had to insert a 5 page report on my self to join a corp,group,guild or team. I play this game to have fun not to submit to pointless rule 3.152 . Or have to report for weekly (sometimes more...far more ) board meetings. Why? Why put myself through that? I do that in RL. I WILL NOT SUBMIT MY FREE TIME TO DO THE SAME
^ this. Most job interviews require less info than most player corps want. Info about your space life and your space bank account and your space car and space life insurance and space medical history. Yeah I'm sure real jobs are super interested in those things.
That's my point. i need to give less information in real life to get a job, than i have to fill out and make publicly available to join a corp. I sure as hell dont get the question: "howmany more mail adresses do you have" and "can i read all your mail". It's like an employer would ask for your full facebook access, just without editing rights.
To the guy calling me a liar. i'm judging it from what i've seen myself. i'm sure there are corps where you can easily join, but most of those i've seen have a several step application process which does require more than most jobinterviewers ask. Once you need to make 2 or 3 accounts, fill out 3 questionaires, change your UI to conform to the corp, set up certain programs, and go through an interview (all of this before you're even allowed to apply ingame), its going too far for me and i just say screw it, i'll play solo or with real life friends. It might not be a reason for you, but it is for me. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
237
|
Posted - 2015.03.22 23:49:39 -
[675] - Quote
Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:
To the guy calling me a liar. i'm judging it from what i've seen myself. i'm sure there are corps where you can easily join, but most of those i've seen have a several step application process which does require more than most jobinterviewers ask. Once you need to make 2 or 3 accounts, fill out 3 questionaires, change your UI to conform to the corp, set up certain programs, and go through an interview (all of this before you're even allowed to apply ingame), its going too far for me and i just say screw it, i'll play solo or with real life friends. It might not be a reason for you, but it is for me.
they ask for in game information, not real life information.
you really think employers don't read their workers mails or access their facebook accounts to have a read (not hack)what they might be upto ?
we all know they do it would be really silly to think they don't.
but EVE is a game, people make their own rules up on recruitment. if you don't like it then you can always refuse and walk away.
there is plenty of corps out there that just hit accept to corp if you apply. so if it's not your thing to give API and face an interview then don't. but don't be offended when asked for one. these people who are recruiting you are just doing their role.
all of those tools, UI setup and so on are there to help you not get dead, why would you whine about learning how to not get dead ? maybe you get how it all works,, but some people need help,, best to be sure,, don't you think ?
i guess if you don't like being told what to do then yea, some corps are defo not for you me good man
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
156
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 00:20:13 -
[676] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:there is plenty of corps out there that just hit accept to corp if you apply
[insert generic statement about corp friendly fire, awoxing, and safari mode]
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:i guess if you don't like being told what to do then yea, some corps are defo not for you me good man
It's not just about being told what to do, it's also about someone else having power to change your tax, lock out some assets you helped gain, do stupid things in association with you but share the consequences, etc. Or just being a general moron with corp ff set to legal and threatening to blow up a freighter every time he sees you in one.
In other words, player corps have power over you, not just human-to-human kind of power, but also some power projected by game mechanics. I can totally understand people who don't like this, especially dependent ones like newbies. A vet can go on without relying on his corp, shrug off grief decs, laugh at losses, play on alts when camped, a newbie doesn't have that power to be independent in a player corp, and thus, might not want to join a player corp in reluctance before being subjected to this kind of power.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
237
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 08:50:43 -
[677] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
[insert generic statement about corp friendly fire, awoxing, and safari mode]
so whine about a proper process of recruitment and then whine about there not being one. you do know it's a good idea to look at who you are joining also. but then again that means you might have to actually do some activity thats not done for you in game.
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:i guess if you don't like being told what to do then yea, some corps are defo not for you me good man
Basil Pupkin wrote:
It's not just about being told what to do, it's also about someone else having power to change your tax, lock out some assets you helped gain, do stupid things in association with you but share the consequences, etc. Or just being a general moron with corp ff set to legal and threatening to blow up a freighter every time he sees you in one.
In other words, player corps have power over you, not just human-to-human kind of power, but also some power projected by game mechanics. I can totally understand people who don't like this, especially dependent ones like newbies. A vet can go on without relying on his corp, shrug off grief decs, laugh at losses, play on alts when camped, a newbie doesn't have that power to be independent in a player corp, and thus, might not want to join a player corp in reluctance before being subjected to this kind of power.
what is wrong with you? if you agree to join a player run corp you accept their rules. rules created to protect the corp members and the new guys. If it's issue with anyone having leadership over your actions then find a corp that's happy to have it's members do what the hell they want,, plenty of them out there.
aren't CCP doing what they can to help the new guys out? oppertunities is live for 50% of them, seems to be working better.
badly run corps will always be out there, everyone thinks they are leadership material until they take the seat and realise it's a little bit harder than they thought. i've already stated that i have no issue with people wanting to stay solo. if that's what they want they should be allowed do so.
but a corp where they can avoid one area of PVP but make much much isk out of the rest of the PVP in game, how is that a fair system?
i know by my experience that players that i've had in corp would have quit the game if we had not had these guys join us. we took the time to explain the whys and why nots. they seen in time that there is good reason to listen and be a part of a group.
this suits some,, but not others,,, so back to what the thread asked i guess.
why do players stay in NPC corp? the answer for the most part is shite corps and wardecs, followed by null sec mains alt to make isk without wardecs to worry about and in my view last place the new guy who wants to stay solo.
But CCP know this already
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
111
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 13:06:54 -
[678] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:This becomes an unexpectedly good discussion ...
The reasons why I'm staying in an NPC corp were already named by others. The main point for me is ... independence ... I want to be free to decide anytime, what, where, when, and with whom I do stuff in the game. I know if I would join a player corp it would suck me into obligations and responsibility - which is not bad and I won't exclude it for the future - but atm I don't have the time and patience for that.
You have been brainwashed bu the inane blabbering in NPC corp chat. Mandatory fleet OP etc are a thing in a very small number of corps. Plenty of corps manage to make a decent mark with a pretty casual member base. No lack of corps mentioning "RL first" in their description.
What you won't get not being reliably involved is responsibilities, but then it doesn't look like you want them, and being as naive as you are, that it would be wise to give them to you.
In my corp if you're not here you miss on the kills, but no one would even think of holding it against you... |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
438
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 14:38:09 -
[679] - Quote
I have removed a personal attack.
Quote:4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
183
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 15:23:29 -
[680] - Quote
Caius Sivaris wrote:
What you won't get not being reliably involved is responsibilities, but then it doesn't look like you want them, and being as naive as you are, that it would be wise to give them to you.
In my corp if you're not here you miss on the kills, but no one would even think of holding it against you...
Hmm, what's the point of being in a player corp then? Just a bunch of people doing things together or not, does not qualify for a player corp IMO.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
|
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Miomeifeng Alduin
Lithonauts Inc.
77
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 16:12:13 -
[681] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Miomeifeng Alduin wrote:
To the guy calling me a liar. i'm judging it from what i've seen myself. i'm sure there are corps where you can easily join, but most of those i've seen have a several step application process which does require more than most jobinterviewers ask. Once you need to make 2 or 3 accounts, fill out 3 questionaires, change your UI to conform to the corp, set up certain programs, and go through an interview (all of this before you're even allowed to apply ingame), its going too far for me and i just say screw it, i'll play solo or with real life friends. It might not be a reason for you, but it is for me.
they ask for in game information, not real life information. you really think employers don't read their workers mails or access their facebook accounts to have a read (not hack)what they might be upto ? we all know they do it would be really silly to think they don't. but EVE is a game, people make their own rules up on recruitment. if you don't like it then you can always refuse and walk away. there is plenty of corps out there that just hit accept to corp if you apply. so if it's not your thing to give API and face an interview then don't. but don't be offended when asked for one. these people who are recruiting you are just doing their role. all of those tools, UI setup and so on are there to help you not get dead, why would you whine about learning how to not get dead ? maybe you get how it all works,, but some people need help,, best to be sure,, don't you think ? i guess if you don't like being told what to do then yea, some corps are defo not for you me good man
There are several corps who do ask for personal information and access to ingame mails (which for me is a no go, not because i have something to hide, but out of principle.)
Ofcource its a game, and they make up their own rules. But for me personally, its a reason not to join those corps.
Also: on Facebook i do not use my own name so employers can't find me, i dont access it from anything work related and dont add anyone except people i know in real life. The privacy settings are also set to not show anything to anyone other than friends. I have my own mailbox outside of a work email which i use for private correspondence (and even then, really private stuff, i wont put in that either.)
Like you say: some corps just aren't for me. That is a good enough answer why i stayed in npc corps until someone i know started playing again. ;) |
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 17:09:33 -
[682] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:They are not manageable, ... They are totally manageable. We have 2 wardecs against us at the moment. As a pvp Alliance, we have no problem with that whatsoever and we have many new players, none of whom are worried either because we help them manage the issue. As for eve-uni, they teach people to be an F1 monkey. Great to go to for non-pvp related training, but if you want to learn pvp, don't join eve-uni.
This is categorically false, Eve University corporation has several campuses all across New Eden focused on just about every play style that exists in the sandbox. And contrary to the talking point "EvE is a PVP game", where PVP is a very limited definition of what constitutes player versus player (i.e I maek your ship blow up gud), there are many types of play that exist in EVE.
On the PVP side of things EvE uni has a Wormhole Campus, a Low Sec Campus in Black Rise, and a Null Sec Campus in Syndicate. All of these take out regular small gang and large fleets and ANY member of Eve Uni can coordinate and take out a fleet of any size whenever they want, as long as they follow the rules of engagement which is pretty much just don't shoot blues or structures (Since the corp is neutral).
You get out of the corp what you put into it, stating they "teach you" to become a F1 monkey is just not an informed opinion and belittles one of the few corps that would actually benefit a new player to leave the NPC corps in the first place, especially if the want to PvP, the other well known entities being Brave (If they are still newbie oriented) and RvB. Of course if Low, Null, or WH life are not for a particular capsuleer, the corp is pretty much under permanent "Elite High Sec Mercenary" wardec, so you can play what is clearly "end game" content in high and play station whack a mole all day as well.
There are High Sec Campuses, Mining campuses, a Solitude Campus...all of this is on the website. I just would hate for a new player to come into this thread of all threads, asking why people stay in NPC corps, and have them get turned off from a player corp with a history of being helpful to new players...especially since that one big reason people don't leave NPC corps. Player corps largely...well, suck. It takes effort to make a good corp work, especially for the members.
People that become F1 monkeys become F1 monkeys by choice, but that is representative of the player, not the corp, although some corps do aggregate that type of player. The blob is greater than the sum of it's individually incompetent parts; and a truly big blob is a force to be reckoned with. If you can't beat 'em, n+1.
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Freakshow Oriki
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 17:41:09 -
[683] - Quote
Hello all, I am a new player and thought I would leave some feedback about my time so far in a npc corp.
1.The tax rate so far has not bothered me in fact for the first few days I didn't even realise I was being taxed and I am still not even sure exactly what is taxable in game. Once I realised I could start a one man corp (of which I see many in high-sec) I thought brilliant more isk, more ships, more pew pew. However upon investigation I learned about war-dec and how it affects players. In my humble opinion I could not survive a war dec as much fun as that would be to try for a while anyway. This leads to station camping and again it would be fun to try and outsmart other players and figure out ways to thwart them, I feel they have far more resources to draw upon and it would be futile.
2. I realy can't wait to try some pvp and even though I am low sp and still very much a novice at game mechanics I would love to try even at the expense of ships. However, I currently feel without most frigate skills at a 4-5 it would again be futile against other players who have more sp and better fits never even mind the T2 and above ones. This leads to the fact that it seems there is not enough new player targets around, other players like myself who I could match agianst. Maybe not on an equal footing as I love a challenge just not a face roll and a gf at the end. Eve seems to lack lower level targets who can engage in a fun and challenging manner.
3. My goal being to pvp and meet some interesting people seems to be from my other points blockaded by sp, npc corps, and lack of resources. Now my only chance to gain some experience is to join a player corp, however since joining I have received several mass mails from corps wanting me to join them. Unlike some more naive new player's I asked questions and used google to find out as much as possible about them. Thus I learned most were scams. This is highly off-putting as a new player and leaves me quite reluctant to reach out to other corps that I find interesting. I know scamming is a way of life in EVE and respect the players who put the effort and planning it takes to pull them off, but if like myself it puts off others from joining corps and sticking to this great game then all of Eve suffers for it.
Most of what I have said may not be accurate or even an outright fallacy, I am new and this is my impression thus far of the game. I would very much like to hear from more experienced players on how I may be wrong so I can change and adapt in this game. Like everyone else paying a sub I am looking for my fun :D
Anyway, thank you for taking your time and reading. This was mostly a quick idea dump and as such is missing many other points I have and probably finer adjustments it needs.
tl,dr
1. Tax isn't an issue as a new player
2.There is at least a few weeks gap for players to try pvp and not enough new players to fight. Leading them into the play mission wait for more sp spiral.
3. Corps to new players seem like scams and are warned away from them in npc corp and help chat mostly.
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
184
|
Posted - 2015.03.23 18:19:25 -
[684] - Quote
Freakshow Oriki wrote:Hello all, I am a new player and thought I would leave some feedback about my time so far in a npc corp.
I think you are a good candidate for trying the NPSI communities ... have a look at the public channels of Spectre Fleet, RvB Ganked, Redemption Road or Bombers Bar. Maybe CAS Combat Guild in Syndicate could be a thing for you ... don't need to play alone .
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
163
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 07:16:55 -
[685] - Quote
Freakshow Oriki wrote:Hello all, I am a new player and thought I would leave some feedback about my time so far in a npc corp.
1.The tax rate so far has not bothered me in fact for the first few days I didn't even realise I was being taxed and I am still not even sure exactly what is taxable in game. Once I realised I could start a one man corp (of which I see many in high-sec) I thought brilliant more isk, more ships, more pew pew. However upon investigation I learned about war-dec and how it affects players. In my humble opinion I could not survive a war dec as much fun as that would be to try for a while anyway. This leads to station camping and again it would be fun to try and outsmart other players and figure out ways to thwart them, I feel they have far more resources to draw upon and it would be futile.
2. I realy can't wait to try some pvp and even though I am low sp and still very much a novice at game mechanics I would love to try even at the expense of ships. However, I currently feel without most frigate skills at a 4-5 it would again be futile against other players who have more sp and better fits never even mind the T2 and above ones. This leads to the fact that it seems there is not enough new player targets around, other players like myself who I could match agianst. Maybe not on an equal footing as I love a challenge just not a face roll and a gf at the end. Eve seems to lack lower level targets who can engage in a fun and challenging manner.
3. My goal being to pvp and meet some interesting people seems to be from my other points blockaded by sp, npc corps, and lack of resources. Now my only chance to gain some experience is to join a player corp, however since joining I have received several mass mails from corps wanting me to join them. Unlike some more naive new player's I asked questions and used google to find out as much as possible about them. Thus I learned most were scams. This is highly off-putting as a new player and leaves me quite reluctant to reach out to other corps that I find interesting. I know scamming is a way of life in EVE and respect the players who put the effort and planning it takes to pull them off, but if like myself it puts off others from joining corps and sticking to this great game then all of Eve suffers for it.
Most of what I have said may not be accurate or even an outright fallacy, I am new and this is my impression thus far of the game. I would very much like to hear from more experienced players on how I may be wrong so I can change and adapt in this game. Like everyone else paying a sub I am looking for my fun :D
Anyway, thank you for taking your time and reading. This was mostly a quick idea dump and as such is missing many other points I have and probably finer adjustments it needs.
tl,dr
1. Tax isn't an issue as a new player
2.There is at least a few weeks gap for players to try pvp and not enough new players to fight. Leading them into the play mission wait for more sp spiral.
3. Corps to new players seem like scams and are warned away from them in npc corp and help chat mostly.
Rewards below 100 000 ISK are not taxed, which is most likely why you haven't noticed it - new players don't get much of those.
If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would.
Good way to find a proper corp would be learning to read its killboards. Ask some vets around you to teach you that, they are a great indicator of what a corp is doing, where they do it, how often they do it, and how good are they at it.
For this reason, stay away from people with terrible killboard stats, like goons (typically lose while outnumbering opposition 3 to 1), CODE (66% of their kills are capsules, about 2% of their kills are ships which actually had guns), or "mercenaries" (the main scam facade, even if their killboard looks semi-decent).
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Valkin Mordirc
823
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 08:15:27 -
[686] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Freakshow Oriki wrote:Hello all, I am a new player and thought I would leave some feedback about my time so far in a npc corp.
1.The tax rate so far has not bothered me in fact for the first few days I didn't even realise I was being taxed and I am still not even sure exactly what is taxable in game. Once I realised I could start a one man corp (of which I see many in high-sec) I thought brilliant more isk, more ships, more pew pew. However upon investigation I learned about war-dec and how it affects players. In my humble opinion I could not survive a war dec as much fun as that would be to try for a while anyway. This leads to station camping and again it would be fun to try and outsmart other players and figure out ways to thwart them, I feel they have far more resources to draw upon and it would be futile.
2. I realy can't wait to try some pvp and even though I am low sp and still very much a novice at game mechanics I would love to try even at the expense of ships. However, I currently feel without most frigate skills at a 4-5 it would again be futile against other players who have more sp and better fits never even mind the T2 and above ones. This leads to the fact that it seems there is not enough new player targets around, other players like myself who I could match agianst. Maybe not on an equal footing as I love a challenge just not a face roll and a gf at the end. Eve seems to lack lower level targets who can engage in a fun and challenging manner.
3. My goal being to pvp and meet some interesting people seems to be from my other points blockaded by sp, npc corps, and lack of resources. Now my only chance to gain some experience is to join a player corp, however since joining I have received several mass mails from corps wanting me to join them. Unlike some more naive new player's I asked questions and used google to find out as much as possible about them. Thus I learned most were scams. This is highly off-putting as a new player and leaves me quite reluctant to reach out to other corps that I find interesting. I know scamming is a way of life in EVE and respect the players who put the effort and planning it takes to pull them off, but if like myself it puts off others from joining corps and sticking to this great game then all of Eve suffers for it.
Most of what I have said may not be accurate or even an outright fallacy, I am new and this is my impression thus far of the game. I would very much like to hear from more experienced players on how I may be wrong so I can change and adapt in this game. Like everyone else paying a sub I am looking for my fun :D
Anyway, thank you for taking your time and reading. This was mostly a quick idea dump and as such is missing many other points I have and probably finer adjustments it needs.
tl,dr
1. Tax isn't an issue as a new player
2.There is at least a few weeks gap for players to try pvp and not enough new players to fight. Leading them into the play mission wait for more sp spiral.
3. Corps to new players seem like scams and are warned away from them in npc corp and help chat mostly.
Rewards below 100 000 ISK are not taxed, which is most likely why you haven't noticed it - new players don't get much of those. If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would. Good way to find a proper corp would be learning to read its killboards. Ask some vets around you to teach you that, they are a great indicator of what a corp is doing, where they do it, how often they do it, and how good are they at it. For this reason, stay away from people with terrible killboard stats, like goons (typically lose while outnumbering opposition 3 to 1), CODE (66% of their kills are capsules, about 2% of their kills are ships which actually had guns), or "mercenaries" (the main scam facade, even if their killboard looks semi-decent).
Don't listen to this noise.
Anyone in EVE is given on thing, and that is a chance to do something great. Those who have, and this man in particular, are trolls, or is some dismal cases, sadly believe the slander and falsehoods they shovel onto the anyone who will listen.
You are a player in EVE with a chance, what you do with it, is up to you.
#DeleteTheWeak
|
Dextrome Thorphan
RvB - RED Federation
117
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 08:48:44 -
[687] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
My alt has been in a private corp for half a decade, I've owned several POSes, never got wardecced -- maybe I was just lucky though. I keep a low profile ^^ |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
186
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 11:56:49 -
[688] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would.
You are trolling, right? I got my first couple of solo kills (even one 1:2 I remember) against much older players in an FFA (Free For All brawl) organized by Crossing Zebras only a couple of months into the game. And I didn't stop successfully PvPing solo and in fleets since then. The SP wall is a myth, just focus on one hull/weapon system and you are competitive in short time.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
163
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 14:38:23 -
[689] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would.
You are trolling, right? I got my first couple of solo kills (even one 1:2 I remember) against much older players in an FFA (Free For All brawl) organized by Crossing Zebras only a couple of months into the game. And I didn't stop successfully PvPing solo and in fleets since then. The SP wall is a myth, just focus on one hull/weapon system and you are competitive in short time.
Yeah, focusing on one hull/weapon system can make you perfect with it around 25 million SP, which is around 1.5 - 2 years depending on your implants. Add a few million if it's a cruiser system and about 10 million more if it's a battleship system.
Then see bittervets undocking only in fits which reliably beat the crap out of your system of choice, and continue this miserable existence of being content for everyone over SP wall, till you leap the rest of SP wall.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
188
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 15:30:08 -
[690] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Yeah, focusing on one hull/weapon system can make you perfect with it around 25 million SP, which is around 1.5 - 2 years depending on your implants. Add a few million if it's a cruiser system and about 10 million more if it's a battleship system.
Then see bittervets undocking only in fits which reliably beat the crap out of your system of choice, and continue this miserable existence of being content for everyone over SP wall, till you leap the rest of SP wall.
Sigh. I start to get the feeling you are a lost cause ...
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
|
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
24
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 15:39:59 -
[691] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would.
You are trolling, right? I got my first couple of solo kills (even one 1:2 I remember) against much older players in an FFA (Free For All brawl) organized by Crossing Zebras only a couple of months into the game. And I didn't stop successfully PvPing solo and in fleets since then. The SP wall is a myth, just focus on one hull/weapon system and you are competitive in short time. Yeah, focusing on one hull/weapon system can make you perfect with it around 25 million SP, which is around 1.5 - 2 years depending on your implants. Add a few million if it's a cruiser system and about 10 million more if it's a battleship system. Then see bittervets undocking only in fits which reliably beat the crap out of your system of choice, and continue this miserable existence of being content for everyone over SP wall, till you leap the rest of SP wall.
Basils corps LOSSBOARD
Attention all newbros.... never take advice from this total loser and baddue or one of his corpmates. He is very bad at this game and dumb. And just a liar, but may be he doesnt no he lying and just that stupid.
That is the real question, how stupid us basil? Is he dumber thab he is bad? Or badder than he is a liar? Or more lair than he is stupid? |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
24
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 15:42:59 -
[692] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Freakshow Oriki wrote:Hello all, I am a new player and thought I would leave some feedback about my time so far in a npc corp.
1.The tax rate so far has not bothered me in fact for the first few days I didn't even realise I was being taxed and I am still not even sure exactly what is taxable in game. Once I realised I could start a one man corp (of which I see many in high-sec) I thought brilliant more isk, more ships, more pew pew. However upon investigation I learned about war-dec and how it affects players. In my humble opinion I could not survive a war dec as much fun as that would be to try for a while anyway. This leads to station camping and again it would be fun to try and outsmart other players and figure out ways to thwart them, I feel they have far more resources to draw upon and it would be futile.
2. I realy can't wait to try some pvp and even though I am low sp and still very much a novice at game mechanics I would love to try even at the expense of ships. However, I currently feel without most frigate skills at a 4-5 it would again be futile against other players who have more sp and better fits never even mind the T2 and above ones. This leads to the fact that it seems there is not enough new player targets around, other players like myself who I could match agianst. Maybe not on an equal footing as I love a challenge just not a face roll and a gf at the end. Eve seems to lack lower level targets who can engage in a fun and challenging manner.
3. My goal being to pvp and meet some interesting people seems to be from my other points blockaded by sp, npc corps, and lack of resources. Now my only chance to gain some experience is to join a player corp, however since joining I have received several mass mails from corps wanting me to join them. Unlike some more naive new player's I asked questions and used google to find out as much as possible about them. Thus I learned most were scams. This is highly off-putting as a new player and leaves me quite reluctant to reach out to other corps that I find interesting. I know scamming is a way of life in EVE and respect the players who put the effort and planning it takes to pull them off, but if like myself it puts off others from joining corps and sticking to this great game then all of Eve suffers for it.
Most of what I have said may not be accurate or even an outright fallacy, I am new and this is my impression thus far of the game. I would very much like to hear from more experienced players on how I may be wrong so I can change and adapt in this game. Like everyone else paying a sub I am looking for my fun :D
Anyway, thank you for taking your time and reading. This was mostly a quick idea dump and as such is missing many other points I have and probably finer adjustments it needs.
tl,dr
1. Tax isn't an issue as a new player
2.There is at least a few weeks gap for players to try pvp and not enough new players to fight. Leading them into the play mission wait for more sp spiral.
3. Corps to new players seem like scams and are warned away from them in npc corp and help chat mostly.
Rewards below 100 000 ISK are not taxed, which is most likely why you haven't noticed it - new players don't get much of those. If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would. Good way to find a proper corp would be learning to read its killboards. Ask some vets around you to teach you that, they are a great indicator of what a corp is doing, where they do it, how often they do it, and how good are they at it. For this reason, stay away from people with terrible killboard stats, like goons (typically lose while outnumbering opposition 3 to 1), CODE (66% of their kills are capsules, about 2% of their kills are ships which actually had guns), or "mercenaries" (the main scam facade, even if their killboard looks semi-decent).
Lol just realise cuz i only skim basils terriblr lie posts that he talks of TERRIBLE KULLBOARD STATS and that good kb stats imdicate a good corp....
LMFAO OMG LOLOLOLOLOLOL POINT PROVEN.
See above for link to basils corps terrible LOSSBOARD. Which he admits means his corp sucks and no one shpuld join.
Newbros... stay away from that platypus hes a dumb liar and terrible at this video game
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8087
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 15:43:14 -
[693] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would.
You are trolling, right? I got my first couple of solo kills (even one 1:2 I remember) against much older players in an FFA (Free For All brawl) organized by Crossing Zebras only a couple of months into the game. And I didn't stop successfully PvPing solo and in fleets since then. The SP wall is a myth, just focus on one hull/weapon system and you are competitive in short time. Yeah, focusing on one hull/weapon system can make you perfect with it around 25 million SP, which is around 1.5 - 2 years depending on your implants. Add a few million if it's a cruiser system and about 10 million more if it's a battleship system. Then see bittervets undocking only in fits which reliably beat the crap out of your system of choice, and continue this miserable existence of being content for everyone over SP wall, till you leap the rest of SP wall. Basils corps LOSSBOARDAttention all newbros.... never take advice from this total loser and baddue or one of his corpmates. He is very bad at this game and dumb. And just a liar, but may be he doesnt no he lying and just that stupid. That is the real question, how stupid us basil? Is he dumber thab he is bad? Or badder than he is a liar? Or more lair than he is stupid?
At least he can spell properly.
So who's the stupid one?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
26
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 15:48:25 -
[694] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would.
You are trolling, right? I got my first couple of solo kills (even one 1:2 I remember) against much older players in an FFA (Free For All brawl) organized by Crossing Zebras only a couple of months into the game. And I didn't stop successfully PvPing solo and in fleets since then. The SP wall is a myth, just focus on one hull/weapon system and you are competitive in short time. Yeah, focusing on one hull/weapon system can make you perfect with it around 25 million SP, which is around 1.5 - 2 years depending on your implants. Add a few million if it's a cruiser system and about 10 million more if it's a battleship system. Then see bittervets undocking only in fits which reliably beat the crap out of your system of choice, and continue this miserable existence of being content for everyone over SP wall, till you leap the rest of SP wall. Basils corps LOSSBOARDAttention all newbros.... never take advice from this total loser and baddue or one of his corpmates. He is very bad at this game and dumb. And just a liar, but may be he doesnt no he lying and just that stupid. That is the real question, how stupid us basil? Is he dumber thab he is bad? Or badder than he is a liar? Or more lair than he is stupid? At least he can spell properly. So who's the stupid one? Mr Epeen
I am European u bear. He has no racial excuse for being terrible at this video game |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Warp to Cyno.
4356
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 15:52:18 -
[695] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
If you are ready to become content for vets, join some accepting FW PvP corp, or fly those spy-farmed NPSI fleets. Both will give you a great sample how many stomps, losses and misery will await you on your way over SP wall in the next 5-6 years. Then you can finally PvP. Maybe. If SP wall doesn't grow faster than you would.
You are trolling, right? I got my first couple of solo kills (even one 1:2 I remember) against much older players in an FFA (Free For All brawl) organized by Crossing Zebras only a couple of months into the game. And I didn't stop successfully PvPing solo and in fleets since then. The SP wall is a myth, just focus on one hull/weapon system and you are competitive in short time. Yeah, focusing on one hull/weapon system can make you perfect with it around 25 million SP, which is around 1.5 - 2 years depending on your implants. Add a few million if it's a cruiser system and about 10 million more if it's a battleship system. Then see bittervets undocking only in fits which reliably beat the crap out of your system of choice, and continue this miserable existence of being content for everyone over SP wall, till you leap the rest of SP wall. Basils corps LOSSBOARDAttention all newbros.... never take advice from this total loser and baddue or one of his corpmates. He is very bad at this game and dumb. And just a liar, but may be he doesnt no he lying and just that stupid. That is the real question, how stupid us basil? Is he dumber thab he is bad? Or badder than he is a liar? Or more lair than he is stupid? At least he can spell properly. So who's the stupid one? Mr Epeen
it's basil |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
163
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 16:00:32 -
[696] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Bunch of trash talk ingrained with elitist bs coming from lolbrave.
Tell me, when did I name my kiddie pond corp the best PvP corp ever or tried to recruit anyone into it? The guy wanted to try PvP corp, and comparing PvP corps by their killboards is perfectly sound advice. If not direct stats, then at least activity, region, and average fleet size can be divulged that way.
Mine is a corp for training newbies who are:
a) My friends.
b) Do not want to become content.
This corp teaches PvE. It gives guidance and allows newbies to lose expensive ships with motto "until your first billion is made, ships you lose is not your problem", and to let them sometimes learn the hard way that coming out into low/null and attempting to PvP there is a certain death scenario until SP wall is leaped.
And, just to be clear with you, who seem to be jelly in delusion that everyone tries to take their newbie cannon fodder from them, this corp is NOT recruiting.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1426
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 16:00:49 -
[697] - Quote
I dunno. I think there's a great deal of paranoia involved here that sometimes can be merited but not always.
Basil's posts seem to drip with worst case scenarios and an overwhelming 'can't win, don't try' attitude. Now, if one's been stomped on many times over this can be understandable.
On the other hand, it's definitely not healthy. Just because there is a counter to everything does not mean that everything you try will be countered. Just as often as you make the mistake of bringing a sword to a gunfight, others are just as prone to making mistakes of their own. By sequestering yourself from harm in fear of loss, you also rob yourself of learning opportunities that can only be gained by losing. In addition, you also are seriously limiting your ability to make new friends in the game. I know it's weird, but in EVE violence can be an amazing social ice breaker. I've met some really cool people who absolutely stomped the crap out of me. I've also met a like number of cool people out of the ranks of those whom I've stomped.
This is a conflict oriented game. Without conflict the market would go to shite faster than you can warp an inty to the next gate. I'm not saying go apeshit and kill everything... I'm not even suggesting that everyone go out and have themselves a nice war. What I am saying is that by putting yourself out there and exposing yourself *wheeee* to the big black can have positive consequences as well as negative. That guy landing on grid with violent intent could very well become your wingmate in the future.
I keep a thoughtgun next to the bed, fully loaded with nerdshot. Just in case.
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Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
Warp to Cyno.
4356
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 16:04:02 -
[698] - Quote
or rather, basil's speaking without any authority on this subject, since his experience is basically zero
i reckon most people with pvp experience will tell you a newbie can be useful, can win fights and can have fun with fewer skillpoints
basil is ignorant |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
163
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 16:54:18 -
[699] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:or rather, basil's speaking without any authority on this subject, since his experience is basically zero
Yes, I totally didn't live in the south and have my stuff scattered everywhere from Delve to Insmother this year. That's some great deduction based on what you see on my hisec alt.
Benny Ohu wrote:i reckon most people with pvp experience will tell you a newbie can be useful
Within an SP wall leaping mechanic such as fleet (which would perform equally well without said newbie in it), the newbie will get "useful" in form of bait, I never denied that.
Benny Ohu wrote:can win fights
In a catalyst against a barge maybe. Or when somebody royally screws up. IF they are ready to be patient content and wait for the moment somebody screws up on them.
Benny Ohu wrote:and can have fun with fewer skillpoints
Being content is fun for some people, which has been my point since the beginning. These people are perfectly "eve-ready" and their retention doesn't need any more help.
Benny Ohu wrote:basil is ignorant
I am not claiming their fun is inferior, they are inferior, or anything else whatever you might imply. I am not claiming that my "fun" or whatever you imply to me is superior. There is no ignorance in my point that people who aren't ready to be content are the core of bad retention, and no NPSI farmed fleet or any other form of losing ships with other people can fix it.
You, on the other hand, made some really ignorant claims about me. So who's more ignorant? (Yes, I'm inviting ignorant comeback like "you" to mock it).
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
189
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 16:55:09 -
[700] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Mine is a corp for training newbies
OMG
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
|
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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
163
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 17:34:05 -
[701] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
Mine is a corp for training newbies
OMG
As in "OMG how dare you play differently and not in my favor". Which is pretty much the thread's one-liner.
A crap ton equals 1000 crap loads in metric, and roughly 91 shit loads 12 bull shits and 1 puppy's unforeseen disaster in imperial.
|
Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 17:59:20 -
[702] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
Mine is a corp for training newbies
OMG As in "OMG how dare you play differently and not in my favor". Which is pretty much the forum one-liner.
Fixed that for you. I for one applaud you for telling it as it is, even in the face of the handful of pilots who for years have considered this forum their private playground where their primary tasks are:-
A: Shout down anyone who's opinions do not concur exactly with theirs.
B: Drive off any poster who's play-style does ether match theirs or provide them with "content".
C: Mislead new pilots into traps/actions likely to lead to loss/scams (delete as applicable).
Which unfortunately probably goes some way to explaining the retention rate of new pilots. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
10389
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 18:15:21 -
[703] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:or rather, basil's speaking without any authority on this subject, since his experience is basically zero
i reckon most people with pvp experience will tell you a newbie can be useful, can win fights and can have fun with fewer skillpoints
basil is ignorant
Beyond that, there is another problem that i see in his posting a lot.
It's always about winning. A long time ago we had a discussion he participated in and it (as Omar says above) "if you can't win , don't try". He doesn't understand that people may not be as 'must.win.now' about things as he is, which is probably why he belies in that imaginary "SP wall". In short, he can't see beyond his own preferences. I've encountered a number of Basil's in my more than 20 years of gaming (they usually exist in FPS games and now, in "MOBA type games) and they always have a narrow-ish world view built around avoiding the pain of losing.
The truth is that the best way to advance is to learn that you win some and you lose some (and your ship and mods etc or just tools you use to have fun). And also that losing a fight in a video game isn't a reflection of your personal worth as a gamer or person. It's litterally "did you have fun before a ship exploded, yours or there's".
|
Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 18:40:36 -
[704] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:[quote=Benny Ohu]
The truth is that the best way to advance is to learn that you win some and you lose some (and your ship and mods etc or just tools you use to have fun). And also that losing a fight in a video game isn't a reflection of your personal worth as a gamer or person. It's litterally "did you have fun before a ship exploded, yours or there's".
I suspect when I have a newbro pinned in a gatecamp, he doesn't have much time to have fun, or learn that I will always beat him even in the exact same fit which is twice as effective as his fit because V in everything . Though I wont deny having my OGB, neutral scout scan, prior knowledge of his fit from Zkillboard and my 5 buddies helps considerably.
Of course when he has V in everything, he can then rofflestomp newbs and tell them "SP doesn't matter" to make sure they come back for more . By then I will have V in everything Tech 3 and can continue to rofflestomp not-so-newbro, while telling myself its simply down to my elite skills. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
189
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 18:49:21 -
[705] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
Mine is a corp for training newbies
OMG As in "OMG how dare you play differently and not in my favor". Which is pretty much the thread's one-liner.
Not exactly, rather "OMG, this guy teaches newbies they are crap until 50m SP, and then they are still crap because there are players with 100m SP".
Risk aversion and hesitent CEOs are poisen for player retention, IMO. ...and we are back on-topic.
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
4762
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 19:54:36 -
[706] - Quote
I've removed some troll posts and personal attacks. I'd really like to not have to remove any more posts. Or send in an reports of my own. Thanks!
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 23:11:10 -
[707] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:they ask for in game information, not real life information.
Miomeifeng is arguing that space guilds want more space information than real life employers want (or can have) real life information. Straightfoward.
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:you really think employers don't read their workers mails or access their facebook accounts to have a read (not hack)what they might be upto ?
See, where I live, this is a great way to end up breaking the law. |
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
92
|
Posted - 2015.03.24 23:28:21 -
[708] - Quote
People with facebook accounts shouldn't protest against api keys breaking their privacy rights, just sayin'....
ßòª( -í° -£-û -í°)ßòñ Hi, I'm Blob and I like to Blog.
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Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 00:06:43 -
[709] - Quote
I suspect people who are security conscious enough to object to invasive API requests also do not have facebook accounts, dont use google, and have ghostery/noscript/adblock installed and google.com routed to localhost.
No idea why CCP feels the need to monetize its forum users with newrelic and google when we are already paying them *cough* |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
237
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 14:14:48 -
[710] - Quote
beakerax wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:they ask for in game information, not real life information. Miomeifeng is arguing that space guilds want more space information than real life employers want (or can have) real life information. Straightfoward. xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:you really think employers don't read their workers mails or access their facebook accounts to have a read (not hack)what they might be upto ? See, where I live, this is a great way to end up breaking the law.
you'll find the your work email is not your property and usage of it means you agree with that. so how is this illegal ?
i could say the very same about these forums, my rights on here can be revoked anytime by CCP and i'm sure they read private messages also. if there was an issue say with myself and another person on here. so yea. they do read your so called private stuff.
when API checks are working and stopping all sorts of shenanigans you can't blame people for wanting to use them.
they're are far from the last or only check made on new guys.
you can't blame people for wanting to protect what they have, internal security is a very real thing in EVE. as well you know.
the bottom line is EVE is a game, these tools are provided so they are going to be used. i'd even go as far as to say they will be in the game as part of corp management at some stage... we could say soon.tm
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Niobe Song
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
60
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 18:18:56 -
[711] - Quote
It is true that they are part of the game and even a necessary evil. But it is also true that some people want nothing to do with that. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
237
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 21:24:05 -
[712] - Quote
Niobe Song wrote:It is true that they are part of the game and even a necessary evil. But it is also true that some people want nothing to do with that.
totally accept that |
Petre en Thielles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
123
|
Posted - 2015.03.25 21:33:28 -
[713] - Quote
beakerax wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:they ask for in game information, not real life information. Miomeifeng is arguing that space guilds want more space information than real life employers want (or can have) real life information. Straightfoward. xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:you really think employers don't read their workers mails or access their facebook accounts to have a read (not hack)what they might be upto ? See, where I live, this is a great way to end up breaking the law.
As the guy running technology for my company, this isn't true (in the US, at least). Your emails are intellectual property of the company, and they own 100% of the IP you generate while at work/using work resources. It is illegal to use the address to pretend someone who quit works there, but it is 100% legal to read email. Hell, we have a system that we bought specifically for making it easier to read email sent to/from anyone.
There is no such thing as a private conversation when using your work email or phone. |
Redbull Spai
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 22:55:26 -
[714] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens. That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict. Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product. Or if you want more player conflict you can move out of high sec. No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec.
No Eve is supposed to be a sandbox game. You want to fight people, join a low/null corp and fight like-minded people. You want to gank people? Join a merc corp that are wardecked to just about every major 0.0 alliance with the aim of denying them access to high. You just want to be legally able to kill players that have no interest in fighting other players, and even if they did they have no chance as they are in a pve fit ship? Grow a spine and start fighting people who can fight back. |
Shailagh
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
99
|
Posted - 2015.05.14 23:50:00 -
[715] - Quote
Redbull Spai wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Niobe Song wrote:Looks more like Eve is a PvE game where PvP sometimes happens. That's not a good way of arguing that highsec should stay safe. All you've really done is prove us right when we claim that things need rebalanced to favor player conflict. Besides, which, what people do has no effect on the nature of the game. I can wear a lampshade on my head, and it's still a lampshade, not a hat. I can wear it 22 hours a day, and it's still not a hat, no matter how much I misuse the product. Or if you want more player conflict you can move out of high sec. No. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec. No Eve is supposed to be a sandbox game. You want to fight people, join a low/null corp and fight like-minded people. You want to gank people? Join a merc corp that are wardecked to just about every major 0.0 alliance with the aim of denying them access to high. You just want to be legally able to kill players that have no interest in fighting other players, and even if they did they have no chance as they are in a pve fit ship? Grow a spine and start fighting people who can fight back.
YES dude look up the wiki here on eveonline.com the devs SAY eve is a PVP-Sandbox.
End of story you carebear.
Gtfo outta my eve pve bear.
If you weren't hiding in an npc corp id wardec you and griefdec you with my corp WTB Somalians until you quit |
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:21:42 -
[716] - Quote
Thorav wrote:Because we want to play by ourselves?
No, im serious, Im surprised that no one else has really expanded on that.
I've been in the NPC corp for 5 years now, and I've never left since I started playing EVE. I have no desire to be small part of a big system. Like f--k, if i I wanted to be a tiny cog in a giant machine of thousands of people, I'd go and work for a financial firm in a cubicle from 9-5.
I, and i suspect, many players, want to make a mark on the game, but i'll be damned if i have to rely on hundreds of other people to get **** done. I will never be able to claim any accomplishments then. I will never kill a titan. I will never hold sovereignty. I realize these unfortunate truths. "So join a corp!" you all say... but then, it wont be ME accomplishing any of those things. I will be the guy who contributes 0.000234% of the damage to that one titan, that one time.
As counter-intuitive as it may initially seem, being in a corporation (read: being in a group in life) robs you of all personal accomplishment. You can't claim anything as being your own doing because you're now relying on others. I want to play video games to escape the social constructs of real life. So f--k, I ain't gonna APPLY and JOIN those very same constructs in the game!
Thats the main reason for me. The other is the elitist, bullshit attitude that plagues EVE. Granted, i realize that its better than a lot of the attitudes that plague most MMO's, but damn can it be annoying. I dont want to serve an FC, who is really just another player, most likely with no real-world tactical knowledge, but who act like gods with self-imposed authority because they're the best at blowing up pixels. I don't want to be forced to use specific, doctrined ship fits, or do specific things that are mandatory.. like holy hell its stupid... MANDATORY ship fits and tasks... in a VIDEO GAME. Nothing in a game should be mandatory, that's what makes it a game.
"But the ship fits are doctrined not because they're trying to force you to do something you dont want, but rather, because they're EFFECTIVE" you all say. Granted, but i should have the right (correction, i DO have the right) to play the game however i want to, fitting my ships however i so choose.
"But then you're jeporadising the mission, and the battle! If you have a ****** fit, you could lead to everyone else losing!"... Guys, its a videogame. Calm down. You should have the agency to do what you want. Real life is where you go if you want to do things that are forced. That isn't what i play for. I am not playing a game only to find out that its really just like real life. That aint fun for me.
"So quit those ****** corps, then!" you say.... but we're talking about WHY players dont join them, so that point is moot in this case.
Lastly, I see no advantages to joining a corp. What am i going to do in goonswarm? All of the ****** things i described above, and the rest will be things i do on my own time. So what, i have access to corporate hangers and corporate wallets and new bases across the universe? Those things dont REALLY matter, and you can get 99% of them from other players in noob corps, if you're nice.
"But dont you want to participate in big fleet battles"
No
"But dont you want to hold sovereignty and make a change in the world"
Yes, but not at the cost of what's required.
"But dont you want all the help and comradery that comes with being in a corp?"
Newsflash, there's no difference in personality between people in corps, and people in the noob corp. You can have the same help and comradery in the noob corp, so long as you're not an ass.
Tl;Dr: I personally dont want to join a corp because i hate the idea of being a small part of a massive entity. That's what real life is for.
I suspect that for other players, it's partly that, and partly because the 'advantages' of being in a corp dont align with the goals and interests of the player, and are thus rendered null and void.
So essentially massive ego issues.
Even machines need those small cogs, otherwise they don't work. Why wouldn't you want to be part of something greater than yourself, which you know needed you to work? Don't like being the man behind the curtain, want to be the figurehead? Then be a CEO and tell other people what to do.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:26:14 -
[717] - Quote
Kousaka Otsu Shigure wrote:Renaming the title to "Why do we place alts in npc corps?"..
I actually enumerated a list of various activities, and realizing that the theme was generally the same, i'll TLDR:
To enjoy the anonymity/wardec-free perks of being in the NPC corp. Note that everyone can enjoy(abuse) this, not just carebears/new players/etc.
I find this stupid and disgusting. It cheapens the game.
None of the problems that anyone can list for staying in an NPC are actually real problems.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:42:45 -
[718] - Quote
Why not just start ganking people for being in NPC corps?
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37402
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:55:52 -
[719] - Quote
Redbull Spai wrote:No Eve is supposed to be a sandbox game.
Yep, it is a sandbox game that has a pvp core.
This has been quoted elsewhere recently, but just as an explanation in CCP's words:
http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/EVE-Online-New-Pilot-FAQ.pdf
Section 7, page 22:
The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment.
Quote:You want to fight people... ...Grow a spine and start fighting people who can fight back.
It's a sandbox for everyone.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
124
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 01:57:36 -
[720] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I have said this before, and I'll say it again. Whenever a problem in Eve seems insurmountable, bring more people.
If banding together didn't work against the highest of high SP ~elitepvp~ groups, a lot of Eve's history never could have happened as it did. There is a huge difference between "eve history" and "grief decs". The key point of grief decs is that if grief deccer sees you have brought enough SP, he will not fight, completely destroying the point of banding up, laughing at a crapload of people who wasted their time they might have used to, I dunno, actually play the game, to see them dock up in all those useless PvP ships they are never going to make to work anyway which will be useless after this occasion and thus are as good as lost. Most of the time a target for grief dec would be carefully selected to not have any ability to band up with anything anyway. Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:I almost wish there was an accurate way to show average SP of pilots in a fleet, and then compare fleets against each other. I say almost, because the benefit would be smashing part of the quoted belief forever. However, the negative would be that it would just end up being one more "early warning system" to make people run and dock. Aw man, aw man, aw man, you just sounded like those secret agents in my old man's conspiracy fiction books. You know, like "we can neither confirm nor deny... " style. In one statement you both DENIED the statement of importance of SP saying you'd smash it with a tool, and then just CONFIRMED the same statement by saying people would run and dock, apparently nobody runs and docks without a reason, and if SP wall is not a reason like you stated in denial, they would have no reason to do that, unless it's true, in which case it's a confirmation. Since you expressed both opinions, and I expressed one, this makes the SP issue win 1.5 to 0.5 in favor or relevant between us. That aside, I must cover misunderstanding you have. First, average SP is just like any other completely generic average, useless. It's TOTAL SP that counts. Of course, SP is a non-linear force multiplier - an order of magnitude advantage in SP is two orders of magnitude advantage in your ship capabilities - so even two groups with comparable total SP may be not comparable in amount of capabilities, but you get the point. Commander Spurty wrote:Go to low sec, null sec or wormhole space. 75% of space is yours to go pew pew in.
Leave the vernal pools, evolve, shoot people that probably have 10mill skill points than you, rather than ones that definitely have under 10mill total!!
You do realize he won't have joined CODE after being booted out of ROC if he weren't scaredof going low/null/wh?
This really cant be overstated. If anything, Minmatar has the best set for low SP damage. I can run ~90-100 DPS in minmatar L3 stuff for a frig.
Anything below tech 2 for amarr or caldari is really, really pathetic. You need ~100 DPS to break another player's tank if they are active, or you auto-lose. Caldari missile boats are 50 DPS. Rockets fae only slightly better at 70 DPS. Amarr T1 stuff is around 50-60 DPS.
Anyone can download EFT and play with it, seeing that massive growth from a newbie who can only field 12 DPS to 150 DPS for all tech weapons and ammo, and all the supplementary skills that give more bonuses to damage, etc.
Its the difference of playing another player in street fighter and choosing a 90% handicap when you also don't know how to fight.
Anyone who tries to downplay or minimize this reality is really talking bullshit.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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OverlordY
Interspan
14
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:28:11 -
[721] - Quote
Because of griefing war decs...
Bored groups of gankers looking through recruitment channels for small corps to dec for the LOLS...
the war systems needs changed so badly! |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1018
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 11:40:21 -
[722] - Quote
OverlordY wrote:Because of griefing war decs...
Bored groups of gankers looking through recruitment channels for small corps to dec for the LOLS...
the war systems needs changed so badly!
There is no such thing:
CCP wrote:A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersGÇÖ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two (or more) players, such as corporation wars. The EVE universe is a harsh universe largely driven by such conflict and notice must be taken of the fact that nonconsensual combat alone is not considered to be grief play per the above definition. Wardecs are a feature of Eve and intended gameplay. There is room to make the system better for sure, but you are expected to defend your corporation.
This is why player corps should have real income and other advantages over staying in a NPC corp. The responsibility to defend your corp comes with little added reward and this needs to be fixed. |
Ashlar Maidstone
Moonfyre Science and Research Inc.
178
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 12:12:50 -
[723] - Quote
Let me add a couple things here from my perspective, 1)NO API EVER, I will NOT ask for an API as that is none of my bussiness. 2)Teamspeak is optional if you wanna socialize, Nulsec/WH yes I'll go back eventually.
But as to why players stay in NPC corps is as many have already stated is to stay away from the frustrations of wardecs, overlords of FCs in fleets, doctrines you name it, anything and everything that is wrong in any corp worth it's salt needs a hard look and for me I been thru it.
Why I'll never be demanding if people want to join my corp, you'll have the freedoms to be YOU.
Fly Reckless |
Valkin Mordirc
978
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 12:17:20 -
[724] - Quote
Necroing threadnaughts should be a bannable offense.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1457
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 20:26:17 -
[725] - Quote
Wardecs are intended, but so is any other form of possible aggression. If all intended actions cannot be griefing, griefing effectively cannot occur.
And that's if we ignore the common general use of the term griefing and restrict it to the definition found within the EULA. There can't really be any doubt that some people do use permissible actions to provoke emotional reactions.
Also something something zombie threads. |
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
128
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 20:59:50 -
[726] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Necroing threadnaughts should be a bannable offense.
Fielding forum suppressive ideas should be a bannable offense. Would you prefer someone made a new identical thread to this one to continue discussing it? Oh wait, then it'd be locked because there's already an open thread discussing it.
******** ideas like preventing people from talking about something on the forums, because it rustles your jimmies, need to be considered the trolly material they are and treated as such.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1019
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 21:30:26 -
[727] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Wardecs are intended, but so is any other form of possible aggression. If all intended actions cannot be griefing, griefing effectively cannot occur.
And that's if we ignore the common general use of the term griefing and restrict it to the definition found within the EULA. There can't really be any doubt that some people do use permissible actions to provoke emotional reactions.
Exactly. Complaining that people using the wardec mechanic are engaging in "grief decs" is the same as whining about losing your ship to a gate camp in nullsec or being evicted from a wormhole. These are intended forms of PvP enabled by the the developers to drive the player conflict the game is built on.
Whether someone blows you up, or declares war on you because they want your cargo, want the kill mail, because you mouthed off in local, because someone paid them to, or because they want a emotional response is beside the point. As long as they stay within the EULA such player conflict is intended to occur in this game.
What gets me is how quick highsec carebears are to blame anyone who dares interfere with thier gameplay as a "griefer". How can they even know what is motivating an aggressor? Sure it could just be out of some desire to smash someone's sandcastle (which in itself is a reason perfectly acceptable to the developers) but it could equally be for direct profit (as with mercenaries), to eliminate a competitor, or just because one corp member insulted the wrong person. The reasons are opaque to the defender unless they are informed, so why must wardeccers always be sociopathic griefers looking for "easy" kills? |
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
128
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 21:37:07 -
[728] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Wardecs are intended, but so is any other form of possible aggression. If all intended actions cannot be griefing, griefing effectively cannot occur.
And that's if we ignore the common general use of the term griefing and restrict it to the definition found within the EULA. There can't really be any doubt that some people do use permissible actions to provoke emotional reactions. Exactly. Complaining that people using the wardec mechanic are engaging in "grief decs" is the same as whining about losing your ship to a gate camp in nullsec or being evicted from a wormhole. These are intended forms of PvP enabled by the the developers to drive the player conflict the game is built on. Whether someone blows you up, or declares war on you because they want your cargo, want the kill mail, because you mouthed off in local, because someone paid them to, or because they want a emotional response is beside the point. As long as they stay within the EULA such player conflict is intended to occur in this game. What gets me is how quick highsec carebears are to blame anyone who dares interfere with thier gameplay as a "griefer". How can they even know what is motivating an aggressor? Sure it could just be out of some desire to smash someone's sandcastle (which in itself is a reason perfectly acceptable to the developers) but it could equally be for direct profit (as with mercenaries), to eliminate a competitor, or just because one corp member insulted the wrong person. The reasons are opaque to the defender unless they are informed, so why must wardeccers always be sociopathic griefers looking for "easy" kills?
a 100 man carebear blob could hastily wreck a 10 man highsec merc wardeccing corp. They choose not to do it because "they dont want to deal with politics/etc" and want to play solo. Who said a 100 man carebear blob has to be politic minded? A PC corp that is designed solely as an offshoot of NPC corps, to house 100's of players who don't want politics, which does nothing but allow people to fight back in groups, sounds better than simply whining that they can't play solo because of griefers.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
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Valkin Mordirc
979
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 21:38:37 -
[729] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Necroing threadnaughts should be a bannable offense. Fielding forum suppressive ideas should be a bannable offense. Would you prefer someone made a new identical thread to this one to continue discussing it? Oh wait, then it'd be locked because there's already an open thread discussing it. ******** ideas like preventing people from talking about something on the forums, because it rustles your jimmies, need to be considered the trolly material they are and treated as such.
This topic has been beaten about so much it's been, Resurrected beaten again, the topics family, friends and co-workers have been beaten into pulp to much that the the red smear left on the ground is all that's left of this topic and anything related to it. Isn't there something about redundant posting?
Don't freak out over a joke. It makes you look like an idiot by the way. This thread is the most ridiculous troll bait thread sitting on the front page right now and should've died off in February when it started. I just get tired of seeing the same people arguing over the same thing.
#DeleteTheWeak
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1647
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 21:38:38 -
[730] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:What gets me is how quick highsec carebears are to blame anyone who dares interfere with thier gameplay as a "griefer". How can they even know what is motivating an aggressor? Sure it could just be out of some desire to smash someone's sandcastle (which in itself is a reason perfectly acceptable to the developers) but it could equally be for direct profit (as with mercenaries), to eliminate a competitor, or just because one corp member insulted the wrong person. The reasons are opaque to the defender unless they are informed, so why must wardeccers always be sociopathic griefers looking for "easy" kills?
Huh man.... Do you REALLY care why that mosquito just baited you?
For me it does not matter. I don't like to be baited by mosquitoes so i evade it at all cost. And every mosquito is damn beast which purpose it to bait me and steal some of my blood
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 21:41:10 -
[731] - Quote
I started my Corp after a few months of playing to see how it works. It was quite useful for organising assets with my other character.
Later I signed my corporation up to Factional Warfare.
I never had to fight another player until then.
There are several FW corps that have asked me to join but I like to organise my own corp, it has it's roots down.
If I was in an NPC corp when I signed up I would probably join a player Corp because a lot of PVP involves teams and I would receive heads up on a battle much earlier.
As it is , I like organising stuff, I would recruit players buy I don't yet have the time to give them the attention they need to be part of my corp.
I don't have a problem with players being in NPC corps. If it is providing what you need then it is the best choice but some player corps seem to have more to offer if you are going their way.
V & B Corporation
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1458
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 21:56:35 -
[732] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Wardecs are intended, but so is any other form of possible aggression. If all intended actions cannot be griefing, griefing effectively cannot occur.
And that's if we ignore the common general use of the term griefing and restrict it to the definition found within the EULA. There can't really be any doubt that some people do use permissible actions to provoke emotional reactions. Exactly. Complaining that people using the wardec mechanic are engaging in "grief decs" is the same as whining about losing your ship to a gate camp in nullsec or being evicted from a wormhole. These are intended forms of PvP enabled by the the developers to drive the player conflict the game is built on. Whether someone blows you up, or declares war on you because they want your cargo, want the kill mail, because you mouthed off in local, because someone paid them to, or because they want a emotional response is beside the point. As long as they stay within the EULA such player conflict is intended to occur in this game. What gets me is how quick highsec carebears are to blame anyone who dares interfere with thier gameplay as a "griefer". How can they even know what is motivating an aggressor? Sure it could just be out of some desire to smash someone's sandcastle (which in itself is a reason perfectly acceptable to the developers) but it could equally be for direct profit (as with mercenaries), to eliminate a competitor, or just because one corp member insulted the wrong person. The reasons are opaque to the defender unless they are informed, so why must wardeccers always be sociopathic griefers looking for "easy" kills?
Reasoning likely seems rather opaque because of their self evaluations as targets. If they aren't targets of value then a profit motive makes no sense. Killmails themselves hold questionable value. Arguably they hold no value from a practical standpoint for the individuals generating them, especially against soft or unprepared targets. That leaves either issues they likely can't trace or actions/words which the whole may not be aware of as you state, and yeah, that leads to the characterizations.
And while they may be to some degree wrong, they are to some degree also right. The default reaction to encountering someone not affiliated to you that you could reasonably kill is to try to do so. The players may not be murderous sociopaths, but the characters we create largely are. Add to that a subset of players salting the wounds of their victims, which I personally don't think is a majority but that's how vocal minorities work, and you have traced the root of the attitude you yourself despise.
The EULA itself doesn't help matters because arguably "for the lulz" and killmail farming, with it's lack of tangible gain, qualify as "making othersGÇÖ lives miserable" since from a practical standpoint the aggressing player "does not profit from it in any way." |
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
40
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:06:04 -
[733] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Wardecs are intended, but so is any other form of possible aggression. If all intended actions cannot be griefing, griefing effectively cannot occur.
And that's if we ignore the common general use of the term griefing and restrict it to the definition found within the EULA. There can't really be any doubt that some people do use permissible actions to provoke emotional reactions. Exactly. Complaining that people using the wardec mechanic are engaging in "grief decs" is the same as whining about losing your ship to a gate camp in nullsec or being evicted from a wormhole. These are intended forms of PvP enabled by the the developers to drive the player conflict the game is built on. Whether someone blows you up, or declares war on you because they want your cargo, want the kill mail, because you mouthed off in local, because someone paid them to, or because they want a emotional response is beside the point. As long as they stay within the EULA such player conflict is intended to occur in this game. What gets me is how quick highsec carebears are to blame anyone who dares interfere with thier gameplay as a "griefer". How can they even know what is motivating an aggressor? Sure it could just be out of some desire to smash someone's sandcastle (which in itself is a reason perfectly acceptable to the developers) but it could equally be for direct profit (as with mercenaries), to eliminate a competitor, or just because one corp member insulted the wrong person. The reasons are opaque to the defender unless they are informed, so why must wardeccers always be sociopathic griefers looking for "easy" kills? Reasoning likely seems rather opaque because of their self evaluations as targets. If they aren't targets of value then a profit motive makes no sense. Killmails themselves hold questionable value. Arguably they hold no value from a practical standpoint for the individuals generating them, especially against soft or unprepared targets. That leaves either issues they likely can't trace or actions/words which the whole may not be aware of as you state, and yeah, that leads to the characterizations. And while they may be to some degree wrong, they are to some degree also right. The default reaction to encountering someone not affiliated to you that you could reasonably kill is to try to do so. The players may not be murderous sociopaths, but the characters we create largely are. Add to that a subset of players salting the wounds of their victims, which I personally don't think is a majority but that's how vocal minorities work, and you have traced the root of the attitude you yourself despise. The EULA itself doesn't help matters because arguably "for the lulz" and killmail farming, with it's lack of tangible gain, qualify as "making othersGÇÖ lives miserable" since from a practical standpoint the aggressing player "does not profit from it in any way."
Join a corp outside of FW and ill grief you out of it bro. |
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
40
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:07:53 -
[734] - Quote
Also this is an internet spaceship game. If i want to blow up your internet spaceship with lasers cuz it gets me off, thats what i pay ccp $15 for a month and thats what i will continue to do.
There are other games for you that you dont have tangible meaninful losses in. That is a key aspect of this game bear |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1459
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:09:43 -
[735] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:a 100 man carebear blob could hastily wreck a 10 man highsec merc wardeccing corp. They choose not to do it because "they dont want to deal with politics/etc" and want to play solo. Who said a 100 man carebear blob has to be politic minded? A PC corp that is designed solely as an offshoot of NPC corps, to house 100's of players who don't want politics, which does nothing but allow people to fight back in groups, sounds better than simply whining that they can't play solo because of griefers.
The issues being horrendously missed here are personal motivation and personal capability.
Personal motivation in that individuals who don't want to fight don't suddenly develop the desire to do so when grouped together. I've had characters in PvP oriented corps. It made it no more enjoyable. The flip side to those same motivations is that fighting still means you aren't doing whatever it is you would otherwise prefer to be doing. Both of those considerations favor evasion to grouping.
The other issue, capability, becomes manifest when capable pilots engage lesser skilled blobs. To be honest, I don't know where the average skills of a carebear in PvP lie, but all I know how to do is get rekt. That also ties into any actual solo operators or those who try in any capacity to enjoy their chosen in space activities being better off just evading.
I get the sentiment here, but it ignores the reality that there is no good reason to fight for someone who doesn't want it, whether able or not. |
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:22:10 -
[736] - Quote
The economics of wardecing a newb don't add up, how can they be doing anything that is worth that much effort ?
V & B Corporation
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1459
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:22:45 -
[737] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:Also this is an internet spaceship game. If i want to blow up your internet spaceship with lasers cuz it gets me off, thats what i pay ccp $15 for a month and thats what i will continue to do.
There are other games for you that you dont have tangible meaninful losses in. That is a key aspect of this game bear
Flawed premise. Meaningful loss is at the very core of evasion. As a result evasion is also a key aspect of the game. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1647
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:27:58 -
[738] - Quote
Venom Anarchy wrote:The economics of wardecing a newb don't add up, how can they be doing anything that is worth that much effort ?
It's not so easy. Thanks to CCP.
My PvP is mostly ganking Caldari FW farmers. Sometimes i feel myself sorry for it. You know: killing n00bs....
But then once in a while i get 150-300 million killmail after such kill.... Like it happened last April: person even was on Trial and already carried about 400 million ISK to Jita to sell! It's crazy but it is offtopic.
What i wanted to say: CCP made it very complicated to decide if this n00b worth attack or not. It's too easy to make loads of ISK these days.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Khan Wrenth
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
145
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:50:53 -
[739] - Quote
I won't claim to speak for anyone but myself, but I did want to shed a little bit of light from my own experience.
This is my main character and the one that I use to post to the forums with. After playing this game a few months and getting a better feel for it, I did make a PvP toon and get him into a player corp. During the recruitment process, of course, I had to submit an all-inclusive API and go through some interviews. When I first joined that corp, some of the leaders had suspicions that I was a spy because I was asking questions like "when is everyone online?", and "Do you guys do roams together? And when?". Because of course I thought it was prudent to find a corp that was active when I was online (first player corp that toon joined had a bunch of people, but nobody online ever).
As I said, I did get to join the corp, but they keep a close eye on me and this toon. I've got nothing to hide from them, but I think they'd freak out if this toon suddenly joined another corp.
If that experience is anything like other people's, where corps may be suspicious of accounts where different toons are in different corps, then perhaps it is normal for the average account to have 1 corp toon and 1 npc toon. So if that scenario is in any way common, there will always be a great deal of NPC toons...but that doesn't mean (some) people aren't playing within corps, it just means there's alts. This is alts online after all. You can have up to three characters per account, maybe people are creating two NPC alts for every corp toon? I can't say for sure, but it is something to consider.
Besides that, it just makes sense not to have all toons in one corp/basket anyway. If I need to spy on another corp for war, move supplies around, engage in the market, or anything like that, it is best done with a neutral party. That's just the way the game is structured, and I play within those rules. Being in a player corp provides no benefits or incentives to any of those activities anyway.
Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
|
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
128
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 22:57:31 -
[740] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Don't freak out over a joke. It makes you look like an idiot by the way. This thread is the most ridiculous troll bait thread sitting on the front page right now and should've died off in February when it started. I just get tired of seeing the same people arguing over the same thing.
Then you better get going on human sterility so that people will die off and not continue to have thoughts that others had before them.
I have a pet saying "There's no such thing as a new idea, just an old idea rehashed and remixed". You ever go to bonsai or electronics forums? Same ****. People will keep coming up with new ideas that have been thought of before, new topics that hae been gone over, and new questions that are so basic that there's pages full of the same question if you use the search function on the forums.
To this I say "what of it"?
Should we kill all communication because everything has been discussed in bonsai or electronics, or in EvE? If the idea is simply to keep things from being slightly redundant, and force people to use a search function for information, then most forums can go ahead and close up shop after around 4-5 years and just become an archive of searchable questions, answers, and asshattery.
That's not what forums are for, however. They're for people to be able to talk to each other, even if you've personally been around to see it all before.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
|
|
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
128
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 23:00:11 -
[741] - Quote
Kaelynne Rose wrote:Also this is an internet spaceship game. If i want to blow up your internet spaceship with lasers cuz it gets me off, thats what i pay ccp $15 for a month and thats what i will continue to do.
There are other games for you that you dont have tangible meaninful losses in. That is a key aspect of this game bear
If it gets you off IRL to blow up defenseless people in a game, that might tell you something.
At 5 drones of T2, the Tristan is nearly as powerful as the Algos, with a cheaper price tag, better maneuverability and speed, and smaller sig radius to avoid the lazy carebearish T3 station blapping -10s who have no life. Pick tristan for FW.
|
Shailagh
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 23:10:33 -
[742] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Necroing threadnaughts should be a bannable offense. Fielding forum suppressive ideas should be a bannable offense. Would you prefer someone made a new identical thread to this one to continue discussing it? Oh wait, then it'd be locked because there's already an open thread discussing it. ******** ideas like preventing people from talking about something on the forums, because it rustles your jimmies, need to be considered the trolly material they are and treated as such. This topic has been beaten about so much it's been, Resurrected beaten again, the topics family, friends and co-workers have been beaten into pulp to much that the the red smear left on the ground is all that's left of this topic and anything related to it. Isn't there something about redundant posting? Don't freak out over a joke. It makes you look like an idiot by the way. This thread is the most ridiculous troll bait thread sitting on the front page right now and should've died off in February when it started. I just get tired of seeing the same people arguing over the same thing.
I dont care what you tire of bear.
This is my thread and it'll die when i choose..
Also from what i gather so far, risk adversion and war evasion are the main reasons given so far. Other than i like to play with myself |
Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
24715
|
Posted - 2015.05.15 23:29:15 -
[743] - Quote
This thread could be fun if someone switched the t for a lower case L.
S.O.L. GANKING4GOOD
Give a man fire and he has it warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he has it warm for the rest of his life.
|
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 00:49:45 -
[744] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Venom Anarchy wrote:The economics of wardecing a newb don't add up, how can they be doing anything that is worth that much effort ? It's not so easy. Thanks to CCP. My PvP is mostly ganking Caldari FW farmers. Sometimes i feel myself sorry for it. You know: killing n00bs.... .
There is no shame in that . they know the risks.. well actually they don't because newbs expect the danger to be from the Gallente. Speaking of which, when I send my other charcter to join Gallente, they have to leave corp and go in stasis to get rid of their corp roles so there is a transition period where they are in NPC corp. Two members of the same player corp cannot be in two different militias
V & B Corporation
|
Persifonne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
59
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 00:56:15 -
[745] - Quote
Venom Anarchy wrote:March rabbit wrote:Venom Anarchy wrote:The economics of wardecing a newb don't add up, how can they be doing anything that is worth that much effort ? It's not so easy. Thanks to CCP. My PvP is mostly ganking Caldari FW farmers. Sometimes i feel myself sorry for it. You know: killing n00bs.... . There is no shame in that . they know the risks.. well actually they don't because newbs expect the danger to be from the Gallente. Speaking of which, when I send my other charcter to join Gallente, they have to leave corp and go in stasis to get rid of their corp roles so there is a transition period where they are in NPC corp. Two members of the same player corp cannot be in two different militias
You can just right click and pick remove all grantable roles and join gall FW immediately. And your entire corp is in a FW militia, thats why individual members cant join individual militias within a corp. Glad you understand basic game mechanics though |
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 01:26:24 -
[746] - Quote
Persifonne wrote:
You can just right click and pick remove all grantable roles and join gall FW immediately. And your entire corp is in a FW militia, thats why individual members cant join individual militias within a corp. Glad you understand basic game mechanics though
They are. I ended up just moving the whole corp instead of one member to save hassle. That's the easy part, one day I might even go there.
V & B Corporation
|
Valkin Mordirc
981
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 02:28:24 -
[747] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote: Going overboard
It twas a joke, m8.
Serious.
Actually.
Don't be Serious.
That's what I'm trying to say.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Daniel Ferel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 06:23:27 -
[748] - Quote
I'm one of those people who have been in a NPC corp for 4 years now (okay, one of those was on break, but lets not be picky), but not for the reason that has been "discussed" for the last 25 or so pages.
My plan when I started 4 years ago was rather simple.
Learn to fly a logi or EW ship (I'm almost always playing support or crowd control heavy "classes" in MMOs), find some guys who like to blow other people up, fleet with them/join their corp, blow other people up.
I played for about 3 weeks when I started to look for a player corp.
The first dozen or so tries got declined because I was lacking skillpoints, even by corps that marketed themselves as newbie friendly.
I finally found one that seemed to accept my lack of SP and invited me to their TS2 server for an interview. I had a nice chat with some squeaky voiced guy who sounded half my age, but everything went fine. Then he told me that they're full of people who want to blow stuff up, but are short on pilots willing to fly the things that don't produce huge damage numbers, and that they would be willing to buy me implants if I make getting into a logi my number one priority.
I told him that I wanted to get my hands on an EW or logi anyways and that I already have implants because I bought and sold a PLEX. What I didn't know was that this sentence, when translated from english into EVE~lish, apparently means "I'm a spy please insult my mother". He screamed (or rather squeaked) abuse at me for a few seconds before kicking me from their TS.
Not a good start.
A few more days of looking and I actually found a corp that was willing to invite me after a short chat in ventrillo. I played with them for a bunch of evenings, got to blow some guys up in low-sec and generally had fun.
Then I had the audacity to not be online for over 30 hours straight. The Drama! (yes, capital D)
The CEO opened a convo and started to ask me (interrogate, really) where I was and what I've been doing, to which I answered that I was spending yesterday morning shopping with my sister, yesterday noon working on stuff in my appartment and the next 12 hours after that at work on a night shift. And I slept long after that because after 11 hours of moving 900kg pallets with an old-fashioned manual pallet hauler I was a little tired.
He told me it might be best to look for another corp since apparantly I can't meet their online requirements.
During the short interview I mentioned that I have an erratic work shedule and might be offline for several days at a time if shifts end up badly planned, and he (yes, the very same guy) told me thats no problem. What.
So now I'm back looking, but apparently having a PC corp with 5 days membership in your history is a very bad sign.
Took me even longer then before to find somebody willing to talk to me, but finally I ended up in another corp, this time a rather small one with 20~ish members. Didn't get to "meet" them ingame the first day, but I was on TS and we had a laugh.
Next day we finally group up and I get promptly blown up by them. "They know what I'm planning and I'm a moron if I think I can fool them" was what they told me on TS. To this day I still have not found out what I've been obviously planning back then.
Of course I left and went back to looking, but having 2 PC corp memberships with less then a week each in under a single month seems to indicate that I'm related to satan, so no one was willing to invite me despite me looking for over a month.
I deleted that alt and created a new one to use as my main, and this one is and always will be [SWA] until the heat death of the universe.
I have good ships and I can blow other people up even while flying solo, I have some contacts that are willing to fly with me if I can be bothered to group up, [SWA] actually has some nice chats sometimes and I'm never pestered by other people who want to interact with me just because I'm in the same corp as them.
And best of all I never have to deal with paranoids and their weird notion of "security requirements".
Constant optimism will not solve your problems, but it will annoy enough people to be worth the effort.
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Lucy Lopez
Low Frequency
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 08:14:31 -
[749] - Quote
I remained in one because I refuse to go through an interview process whereby I'm judged whether or not I'm worthy of playing a computer game with another group of people.
Eventually I made my own corp for tax evasion purposes. |
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 08:26:52 -
[750] - Quote
Lucy Lopez wrote:I remained in one because I refuse to go through an interview process whereby I'm judged whether or not I'm worthy of playing a computer game with another group of people.
Eventually I made my own corp for tax evasion purposes.
Maybe a lot of people try and quit Eve because it isn't the game they were expecting it to be. It turned out to be very different from what I was expecting, luckily that ended up being a game that I like. You have to be patient with Eve because there is much player created content. Not all player corps need to scan your retina to make sure you are who you say you are and not a replicant but the ones that do might be trolls or perhaps might have good reasons too.
V & B Corporation
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1020
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 08:27:36 -
[751] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Reasoning likely seems rather opaque because of their self evaluations as targets. If they aren't targets of value then a profit motive makes no sense. Killmails themselves hold questionable value. Arguably they hold no value from a practical standpoint for the individuals generating them, especially against soft or unprepared targets. That leaves either issues they likely can't trace or actions/words which the whole may not be aware of as you state, and yeah, that leads to the characterizations. Eve in a complex sandbox. There are many reasons for why people act. Sometimes it is just for laughs or out of boredom, but usually it is part of some larger machination to secure power or resources in the sandbox.
Look at the original Goons' ice interdiction. The poor solo retriever pilot who got ganked may not think that he is a valuable target, but there was much profit to be had in destroying him as part of a greater campaign to restrict the flow of ice. Or imagine a mining corp who has "staked a claim" on a particular ice field who uses ganker alts, or hires mercenaries to harry a new pilot or corp that moves into the system. From the view of that new corp they were "griefed" for no reason (unless someone tells them why), yet there was a very valid economic reason why they were targeted.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:And while they may be to some degree wrong, they are to some degree also right. The default reaction to encountering someone not affiliated to you that you could reasonably kill is to try to do so. The players may not be murderous sociopaths, but the characters we create largely are. Add to that a subset of players salting the wounds of their victims, which I personally don't think is a majority but that's how vocal minorities work, and you have traced the root of the attitude you yourself despise.
The EULA itself doesn't help matters because arguably "for the lulz" and killmail farming, with it's lack of tangible gain, qualify as "making othersGÇÖ lives miserable" since from a practical standpoint the aggressing player "does not profit from it in any way."
Since its inception, Eve has been intended to be a competitive PvP sandbox. As you say, capsuleers are a murderous bunch, and the game has been designed so we have to compete and fight over the things in the game universe. Perhaps new players don't understand this, but the game is specifically designed so that people will attack, impede, and otherwise influence their game play, often in a way that will make their ship explode when they do not want it to.
I agree it is bad sportsmanship to rub salt in the wounds of someone you just beat in a game, just like it would be to taunt someone you just defeated in a game of chess, but taking someone's pawn is not "griefing" because they didn't want it to happen and makes them unhappy. Similarly, it is not "griefing" to gank someone's Venture a single time or wardec some upstart corporation for any reason, including because you just like watching ships explode, because that is the game.
Eve is based around player-driven conflict and wardecs are an element of that design. The major problem with them currently is that there is little reason to defend a corp from a wardec, not that they are possible in the first place. |
Lucy Lopez
Low Frequency
18
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 08:33:45 -
[752] - Quote
Venom Anarchy wrote:Lucy Lopez wrote:I remained in one because I refuse to go through an interview process whereby I'm judged whether or not I'm worthy of playing a computer game with another group of people.
Eventually I made my own corp for tax evasion purposes. Maybe a lot of people try and quit Eve because it isn't the game they were expecting it to be. It turned out to be very different from what I was expecting, luckily that ended up being a game that I like. You have to be patient with Eve because there is much player created content. Not all player corps need to scan your retina to make sure you are who you say you are and not a replicant but the ones that do might be trolls or perhaps might have good reasons too.
Maybe not all, but all the ones that looked like they were worth joining wanted minimum 20 mil SP, full API, interview on Teamspeak etc blah blah. Ain't got time fo dat. |
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 09:41:03 -
[753] - Quote
Lucy Lopez wrote:Venom Anarchy wrote:Lucy Lopez wrote:I remained in one because I refuse to go through an interview process whereby I'm judged whether or not I'm worthy of playing a computer game with another group of people.
Eventually I made my own corp for tax evasion purposes. Maybe a lot of people try and quit Eve because it isn't the game they were expecting it to be. It turned out to be very different from what I was expecting, luckily that ended up being a game that I like. You have to be patient with Eve because there is much player created content. Not all player corps need to scan your retina to make sure you are who you say you are and not a replicant but the ones that do might be trolls or perhaps might have good reasons too. Maybe not all, but all the ones that looked like they were worth joining wanted minimum 20 mil SP, full API, interview on Teamspeak etc blah blah. Ain't got time fo dat.
Lol I haven't looked
I'm not in the market, I joined Factional warfare to be in militia not to join a corporation. that's just how I feel my role is due to circumstances when I signed up. The beginning was rough, it would have been much easier joining an existing FW corp but the tide turns and revenge is sweet.
V & B Corporation
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Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
41
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 10:33:56 -
[754] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: Going overboard It twas a joke, m8. Serious. Actually. Don't be Serious. That's what I'm trying to say.
S
T
F
U
I'll grief you little punk |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
423
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 10:37:39 -
[755] - Quote
Daniel Ferel wrote:Bunch of stuff.
Yep, I hear you. Way too many Corp idiots...
i've been in an NPC corp for years. Never leaving....EVER... |
Venom Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 11:59:41 -
[756] - Quote
Lucy Lopez wrote:
Maybe not all, but all the ones that looked like they were worth joining wanted minimum 20 mil SP, full API, interview on Teamspeak etc blah blah. Ain't got time fo dat.
That is 2012 characters and older isn't it ?
V & B Corporation
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
254
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 12:41:39 -
[757] - Quote
this thread began with one question. there was no need for anyone to answer it,,
we all know well why people stay in NPC corps. here's a simple list that everyone could agree on i'm sure.
1: i don't want to play EVE on other peoples schedules.
2: i don't like pvp.
3: i don't like paying taxes to a corp when i'm sure the CEO is getting rich from it.
4: i don't like being told what to do.
4: i want to be a solo pilot.
5: i don't like war decs.
6: being in an NPC corp suits my style of play.
7: i don't want to listen to politics/drama in TS.
8: i've had a bad experience with player corps in the past.
9: a place to hide an alt where you can earn isk in relative peace compared to your main.
10: hey i needs a scout
i'm sure we can all agree that we have no problem with these reasons at all. i know i don't.
the fact that you all have the choice is the trurth of the matter. but keep in mind the choice is limited by the games mechanics.
play as you want because that's the only thing will keep you coming back for more.
this is what makes EVE different to other games, we can be feckers on one toon and a hero on another. or we can just be that nobody, running his ship on a shoe string budget earning just about enough to run the next month of missions.
you can be what you want.
so why is this an issue for some and not for others.
why do players stay in NPC corps?
because they can.
play as you want and feck what others say.
|
Shailagh
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 13:20:59 -
[758] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:this thread began with one question. there was no need for anyone to answer it,, we all know well why people stay in NPC corps. here's a simple list that everyone could agree on i'm sure. 1: i don't want to play EVE on other peoples schedules. 2: i don't like pvp. 3: i don't like paying taxes to a corp when i'm sure the CEO is getting rich from it. 4: i don't like being told what to do. 4: i want to be a solo pilot. 5: i don't like war decs. 6: being in an NPC corp suits my style of play. 7: i don't want to listen to politics/drama in TS. 8: i've had a bad experience with player corps in the past. 9: a place to hide an alt where you can earn isk in relative peace compared to your main. 10: hey i needs a scout i'm sure we can all agree that we have no problem with these reasons at all. i know i don't. the fact that you all have the choice is the trurth of the matter. but keep in mind the choice is limited by the games mechanics. play as you want because that's the only thing will keep you coming back for more. this is what makes EVE different to other games, we can be feckers on one toon and a hero on another. or we can just be that nobody, running his ship on a shoe string budget earning just about enough to run the next month of missions. you can be what you want. so why is this an issue for some and not for others. why do players stay in NPC corps? because they can. play as you want and feck what others say.
Ccp has FACTS AND DATA that players in npc corps quit eve WAY WAY more often than players in player corps.
So no dude, it ain't all fine and peachy keen and kosher. They are low retention players and ccp says are hurting eve AND CCPS WALLET.
(I am currently in between Awox safas hense y im in npc)
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
254
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 22:01:48 -
[759] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:this thread began with one question. there was no need for anyone to answer it,, we all know well why people stay in NPC corps. here's a simple list that everyone could agree on i'm sure. 1: i don't want to play EVE on other peoples schedules. 2: i don't like pvp. 3: i don't like paying taxes to a corp when i'm sure the CEO is getting rich from it. 4: i don't like being told what to do. 4: i want to be a solo pilot. 5: i don't like war decs. 6: being in an NPC corp suits my style of play. 7: i don't want to listen to politics/drama in TS. 8: i've had a bad experience with player corps in the past. 9: a place to hide an alt where you can earn isk in relative peace compared to your main. 10: hey i needs a scout i'm sure we can all agree that we have no problem with these reasons at all. i know i don't. the fact that you all have the choice is the trurth of the matter. but keep in mind the choice is limited by the games mechanics. play as you want because that's the only thing will keep you coming back for more. this is what makes EVE different to other games, we can be feckers on one toon and a hero on another. or we can just be that nobody, running his ship on a shoe string budget earning just about enough to run the next month of missions. you can be what you want. so why is this an issue for some and not for others. why do players stay in NPC corps? because they can. play as you want and feck what others say. Ccp has FACTS AND DATA that players in npc corps quit eve WAY WAY more often than players in player corps. So no dude, it ain't all fine and peachy keen and kosher. They are low retention players and ccp says are hurting eve AND CCPS WALLET. (I am currently in between Awox safas hense y im in npc)
I'm very aware of the data. perhaps CCP need to step their game up on retention,, it's not our issue.
none of us can make people like EVE,, they like it stick around for a while,, get bored of it and leave, some come in and hate it.
CCP has no control over that.
removal of NPC corps would be a mistake and i bet CCP know this.
so yup,,,, erm,,, dude...
not our problem.
people play a game and stick around because they enjoy it and they'll play it how they want or feck off.
you didn't need to explain to me why you're in an NPC corp, that's your own business. you're playing as you want. so should others.
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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 22:56:41 -
[760] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Since its inception, Eve has been intended to be a competitive PvP sandbox. As you say, capsuleers are a murderous bunch, and the game has been designed so we have to compete and fight over the things in the game universe. Perhaps new players don't understand this, but the game is specifically designed so that people will attack, impede, and otherwise influence their game play, often in a way that will make their ship explode when they do not want it to.
I agree it is bad sportsmanship to rub salt in the wounds of someone you just beat in a game, just like it would be to taunt someone you just defeated in a game of chess, but taking someone's pawn is not "griefing" because they didn't want it to happen and makes them unhappy. Similarly, it is not "griefing" to gank someone's Venture a single time or wardec some upstart corporation for any reason, including because you just like watching ships explode, because that is the game.
The underlined are mutually exclusive.
The irony here being that the game is designed around conflict over an objective, but players are not constrained to any purpose or reason. "Doomed to fight for resources and power" (Permaband - Killing is just a means). Why kill the venture when you don't want the minerals (ie resources)? Accepting that a player does not require a reason to war, would equate to accepting that a player does not need a reason to remain NPC. |
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1022
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 06:20:30 -
[761] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:The underlined are mutually exclusive. How is it that a sandbox game that has been designed to give players a large amount of freedom to fight over things incompatible with engaging in a war for any reason? CCP has structured the game to encourage conflict but it is a sandbox game where we are left to our own motivations for our actions and if we players want to "invent" a lore reason to say invade Provibloc, or start a space cult and claim highsec, or "burn" a trade hub at a massive financial loss to ourselves, we are not only allowed, but encouraged by the developers.
GetSirrus wrote:The irony here being that the game is designed around conflict over an objective, but players are not constrained to any purpose or reason. "Doomed to fight for resources and power" (Permaband - Killing is just a means). Why kill the venture when you don't want the minerals (ie resources)? Accepting that a player does not require a reason to war, would equate to accepting that a player does not need a reason to remain NPC. Players don't need a reason to remain in an NPC corp, although I will maintain that the game should be structured such that choice is not the optimal one from a income earning potential. The game should be structure to actually reward players that join together for a common goal and defending their assets, not punish them as it currently does. And as a benefit more players would be encouraged to find social groups which would likely translate into higher retention rates. But if you "just prefer" to stay in the NPC corp, you should always be allowed, just not rewarded for that choice like you are now.
As for killing a Venture, why is it only that players get all touchy about it when it occurs in highsec? If some band of roaming yahoos popped my Venture while I was mining gas in a wormhole or mining ore in lowsec, people would laugh at me if I came to the forums demanding an accounting of how exactly they profited from destroying my unarmed mining ship. No one would take seriously my claim that they were "griefing me" because they were not miners and didn't profit from it. Yet in highsec, because of the density of players, there is much greater likelihood you are stepping on someone's turf and will catch a wardec or be ganked for taking someone's resources, or just be found by someone who likes watching Ventures explode.
It is not "griefing" to destroy another's resource-gathering ship in a game about blowing up spaceships. Nor is it "griefing" to declare war on another corporation in a game set in a dystopian future where we are all constantly at war with one another.
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Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
345
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 06:50:42 -
[762] - Quote
There are tons players run corpos in EVE, but the ones where you will find helpful and interesting people are often the less vocal ones and are not very big.
If you want to make an harmonious group of active and kind players, you won't go advertising, else you are at risk to gather the worst of the galaxy.
The good corpos are harder to find, but it's not impossible. Here's how i have found many :
1) In local chat, right click on the portraits and read the bios, when there are some. If a bio sound interesting, fun, sympathic, poetic, whatever makes you feel good, read the infos about his/her corpo. Do that in every systems you travel in, maybe pick one pilot randomly by solar system. Of course, search in places which fit the profile you wish : high sec corpos in high sec, pirate/gang corpos in low sec or npc null sec, sovereignty corpos in sov null... the only exception being WH corpos, as there's no local in worm space. but these people travel too, and they often also have a base in high sec for the logistic.
2) You seek a corpo with enough active players in your time zone. If for example you are living in Europe, you probably don't want to wake up at 3 am every night just to be able to join the corpo's operations because you have joined an americam corpo. You don't want a corpo with 1 or member, unless it's a starting corpo and you feel that the founder is dynamic enough to make it grow. You neither don't want a corpo with 500 members. You want a dynamic tight group where your presence counts, not a place where you are just one more number and no one even notices if you are existing.
3) Take your time. Don't rush into the first corpo you meet. Don't join immediatly. Corpos often have a public channel that you can join without being member. Some are a great meeting point for friends from different corpos. A good way to taste the ambiance, to ask questions to players from these different corpos, to make contacts...
4) Give them a chance. Don't quit after only a few hours because you have not immediatly got all what you expected. Some things need time.
5) But don't hesitate to leave if you are at the wrong place. If after a week, no one is talking to you, or you see that members are never playing together, have no project, nothing of what makes an interesting corpo, don't feel guilty to leave. I know that some idiot recruiters consider bad to have too many corpos in your history. These people are not recruiters for a corpo where you would feel good.
It's normal to try, it's normal to not find the right family (because a good corpo feels like a family) at the first try. At the end, the goal is that you feel happy, and that your corpies are happy to have you :)
Good luck and don't give up !
Favoritism is good - CCP 2013
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
54
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 07:35:50 -
[763] - Quote
The question begs the reflection: "Why join player corps?" |
Avaelica Kuershin
84
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 08:00:42 -
[764] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:
Ccp has FACTS AND DATA that players in npc corps quit eve WAY WAY more often than players in player corps.
So no dude, it ain't all fine and peachy keen and kosher. They are low retention players and ccp says are hurting eve AND CCPS WALLET.
(I am currently in between Awox safas hense y im in npc)
We see there's a correlation, but what's the cause.
I don't go to Jita often, but when I do, it seems it's a different bunch of scammers each time.
Just something to think about. |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3047
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 08:43:55 -
[765] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:Shailagh wrote:
Ccp has FACTS AND DATA that players in npc corps quit eve WAY WAY more often than players in player corps.
So no dude, it ain't all fine and peachy keen and kosher. They are low retention players and ccp says are hurting eve AND CCPS WALLET.
(I am currently in between Awox safas hense y im in npc)
We see there's a correlation, but what's the cause. I don't go to Jita often, but when I do, it seems it's a different bunch of scammers each time. Just something to think about.
1. Griefers who give bad, wrong or biased advises.
2. Lack of a proper social environment.
Rookiecorps should be abolished and turned into general NPC corps
everyone can switch to by choice.
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
257
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 09:18:21 -
[766] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:The question begs the reflection: "Why join player corps?"
because a player wants too. it's human nature to band together to work on common goals, we can't help but to seek out others like ourselves, we're hard wired to do it and for very good reason.
but if you're a solo player it's not for you, don't join a corp, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
but as a solo player you can't hope to achieve goals as fast as a group would.
but some want to be solo, they enjoy the challange of having to work harder for everything.
each to their own. if that's what people want then let them have it.
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Nevil Oscillator
177
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 13:52:36 -
[767] - Quote
Moaning about other players not doing what you want is a bit pathetic
Players stay in NPC corp, oh that's terrible, how can I cope ?
Players only fight NPC, oh no , I that's so big a problem for me.. lol
Players never leave high sec so I can't blap them in my billion ISK ship fitted specifically for blasting their ship to small pieces.
Such a shame that isn't it ? |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3049
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 14:40:53 -
[768] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Moaning about other players not doing what you want is a bit pathetic
Players stay in NPC corp, oh that's terrible, how can I cope ?
Players only fight NPC, oh no , I that's so big a problem for me.. lol
Players never leave high sec so I can't blap them in my billion ISK ship fitted specifically for blasting their ship to small pieces.
Such a shame that isn't it ?
Stop hating. This is bullshit and has nothing to do with why it's bad.
If you cared more than just about yourself you
would understand that the underlying issue is bigger and affects the whole game.
You selfish, pathetic people.
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
|
Nevil Oscillator
177
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:06:40 -
[769] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:
Stop hating. This is bullshit and has nothing to do with why it's bad.
If you cared more than just about yourself you
would understand that the underlying issue is bigger and affects the whole game.
You selfish, pathetic people.
New corp members and victims not being very keen to die / get exploited.
Your Corp , Your problem
Market Forces, Economic Structure, you build your corp to survive in the conditions that exist not build your corp and expect the conditions to change to suit what your corp does. |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3050
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:18:15 -
[770] - Quote
LALALA WHY MAKE SENSE ANYWAY RIGHT NEVIL???
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
|
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Nevil Oscillator
177
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:31:40 -
[771] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:LALALA WHY MAKE SENSE ANYWAY RIGHT NEVIL???
Yeah I will quote you then go on about what the other guys said. |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3050
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:38:01 -
[772] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Eve Solecist wrote:LALALA WHY MAKE SENSE ANYWAY RIGHT NEVIL??? Yeah I will quote you then go on about what the other guys said.
What for ?
Not like there is a point talking to you.
One just needs to look at your responses.
Abolish Rookiecorps
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
Him after realising rigs don't need any skills: Chris Lazeare > That changes everything
|
Nevil Oscillator
177
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:44:42 -
[773] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:
What for ?
Not like there is a point talking to you.
One just needs to look at your responses.
For some to look at
For others to understand
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1236
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 15:52:34 -
[774] - Quote
Kind of amazed that this is alive/necro'd, but short answer...
Assuming players leave because of war decs is fine, however following the thought logically should lead you to the conclusion that the people declaring the wars would leave the game if they had no one to shoot at.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
55
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 20:49:00 -
[775] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:The question begs the reflection: "Why join player corps?" because a player wants too. it's human nature to band together to work on common goals, we can't help but to seek out others like ourselves, we're hard wired to do it and for very good reason. but if you're a solo player it's not for you, don't join a corp, there's more than one way to skin a cat. but as a solo player you can't hope to achieve goals as fast as a group would. but some want to be solo, they enjoy the challange of having to work harder for everything. each to their own. if that's what people want then let them have it.
What you say works for both the NPC corp and player corp.
Player corp /= players with goals.
NPC corp /= players without goals. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1461
|
Posted - 2015.05.18 21:21:27 -
[776] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Kind of amazed that this is alive/necro'd, but short answer...
Assuming players leave because of war decs is fine, however following the thought logically should lead you to the conclusion that the people declaring the wars would leave the game if they had no one to shoot at.
Assuming we forced people to stay in wardec'd corps to counter dec'ers leaving and further nerfed NPC corps to effectively force PC membership to get anything done, if the defenders just dock up or leave themselves, what is to prevent individuals from both sides from leaving? One side isn't doing anything due to lack of reasons to fight, the other consequently has no targets. Worse yet all those pilots that would be in space and not don't fly under wardecs, or fly less due to the same are effectively denying gankers of potential targets as well by giving players reasons to not be in space.
If we assume such variances in activity actually cause subs to be lost we'll likely only find that forced solutions exasperate the problem. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 02:42:10 -
[777] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:As for killing a Venture, why is it only that players get all touchy about it when it occurs in highsec? If some band of roaming yahoos popped my Venture while I was mining gas in a wormhole or mining ore in lowsec, people would laugh at me if I came to the forums demanding an accounting of how exactly they profited from destroying my unarmed mining ship. No one would take seriously my claim that they were "griefing me" because they were not miners and didn't profit from it. Yet in highsec, because of the density of players, there is much greater likelihood you are stepping on someone's turf and will catch a wardec or be ganked for taking someone's resources, or just be found by someone who likes watching Ventures explode.
It is not "griefing" to destroy another's resource-gathering ship in a game about blowing up spaceships. Nor is it "griefing" to declare war on another corporation in a game set in a dystopian future where we are all constantly at war with one another. It would not have mattered what ship you were in. Mining frigate or T3 Sleeper killer. You are a target of opportunity. I have died myself when mining Arkonor. I certainly did not take it personally and GF'd. Quote:the game has been designed so we have to compete and fight over the things in the game universe So there is a design but of course players have the freedom to ignore this - I am merely highlighting the irony. It can be touchy because, given such freedom players will consistantly choose the low hanging fruit. I doubt the developers behind mining barges considered a single mid slot to a drawback, nor did the player base at the time highlight the obvious consequence. But I also doubt the ships were intended for kill-farming, vilification of the activity or targeted role-play. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
139
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 03:55:44 -
[778] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:The question begs the reflection: "Why join player corps?" because a player wants too. it's human nature to band together to work on common goals, we can't help but to seek out others like ourselves, we're hard wired to do it and for very good reason. but if you're a solo player it's not for you, don't join a corp, there's more than one way to skin a cat. but as a solo player you can't hope to achieve goals as fast as a group would. but some want to be solo, they enjoy the challange of having to work harder for everything. each to their own. if that's what people want then let them have it.
It's worth noting that the question was "Why join player corps?" which is quite a different question from the one you answered which was "Why play with other people?" Hopefully by now, people who are interested in threads involving new player retention and NPC corps are aware of everything that goes on in CAS.
The problem with new player retention isn't game mechanics, isn't NPC corps, isn't tax rates or ganking or war decs. The problem is us, the established players of EVE. New player retention is a social issue, and will be solved by social means. CAS veterans are doing our part - we had a dozen raw newbies join our null/low roam this past weekend for example, and several expressed their excitement for the next event, or even stated they'd like to check out our nullsec home. We build social connections with new players as best we can. A player corp doesn't automatically create that. Those of you who are really concerned about new player retention - you need to get out there and create the social structures and social activities to attract them. CCP cannot do that for you. CAS has, I think, figured it out. (But I would love to see some actual data on new-player retention sorted by starter corp, to know if we really are making a difference or not. Feels like we are, but that's just a feeling.)
|
Heathyy
Immortalis Fratres Vacui
Legio immortales CXCI
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 10:00:24 -
[779] - Quote
why do new players stay in npc corps, because they are new and probably don't want to open themselves upto war decs. I didn't feel the urge to join a player corp till i got to about 5m sp. then it started to dawn on me that being in a player corp probably would benefit me more than going solo. even then the first player corp i joined was war decced during the same week so i left and eventually went to null with only enough skill to fly a retriever.
my advice would be to at least train for a battlecruiser before joining a nullsec corp/alliance, I remember sitting in a PoS for a couple of weeks with nothing to do because i couldn't belt rat solo and we didn't have 24/7 mining ops. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
262
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 15:27:43 -
[780] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:The question begs the reflection: "Why join player corps?" because a player wants too. it's human nature to band together to work on common goals, we can't help but to seek out others like ourselves, we're hard wired to do it and for very good reason. but if you're a solo player it's not for you, don't join a corp, there's more than one way to skin a cat. but as a solo player you can't hope to achieve goals as fast as a group would. but some want to be solo, they enjoy the challange of having to work harder for everything. each to their own. if that's what people want then let them have it. It's worth noting that the question was "Why join player corps?" which is quite a different question from the one you answered which was "Why play with other people?" Hopefully by now, people who are interested in threads involving new player retention and NPC corps are aware of everything that goes on in CAS. The problem with new player retention isn't game mechanics, isn't NPC corps, isn't tax rates or ganking or war decs. The problem is us, the established players of EVE. New player retention is a social issue, and will be solved by social means. CAS veterans are doing our part - we had a dozen raw newbies join our null/low roam this past weekend for example, and several expressed their excitement for the next event, or even stated they'd like to check out our nullsec home. We build social connections with new players as best we can. A player corp doesn't automatically create that. Those of you who are really concerned about new player retention - you need to get out there and create the social structures and social activities to attract them. CCP cannot do that for you. CAS has, I think, figured it out. (But I would love to see some actual data on new-player retention sorted by starter corp, to know if we really are making a difference or not. Feels like we are, but that's just a feeling.)
it's worth noting that you can't read, the title of the thread is why do players stay in NPC corps?
i never said anything about "why play with other people" what the hell are you talking about?
fair play to you guys for doing your bit, but please, get off your orange box, you're not the only people in EVE that help new guys.
then to claim you build a better social connection than others,, that you may,, but we can all claim that. some don't for sure, but that's not something we can or should concern ourselves with. there will always be crap corps out there.
so what has CAS figured out? get off station and do shite? lol thanks for that captian obvious.
but it is interesting that you guys act like a real corp but won't create one. still that's EVE and you can do what you want.
anything players do to help new guys helps them stick around. we all know this.
you can't blame the player base if people don't like the game. i'd like to see the data on how many players quit because they thought the community was full of arseholes vs they didn't like the game/ it was too hard.. i think those numbers would be closer to the truth as to why new guys are not sticking around.
but, players will come and go, that's just how it is, remember there is a hell of a lot of games out there now, people get bored fast these days and move onto their next gaming fix.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
148
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 18:19:57 -
[781] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
it's worth noting that you can't read, the title of the thread is why do players stay in NPC corps?
i never said anything about "why play with other people" what the hell are you talking about?
Regardless of the question posted in the thread's title ("why do players stay in npc corps?") the question posted in the comment you directly replied to was "Why join player corps?" And that's obviously the question you proposed an answer to.
Your whole entire answer was about playing with other people. 
Here are some phrases from your answer that address playing with other people:
- "band together to work on common goals"
- "seek out others like ourselves"
- "can't hope to achieve goals as fast as a group would"
Quote:fair play to you guys for doing your bit, but please, get off your orange box, you're not the only people in EVE that help new guys.
then to claim you build a better social connection than others,, that you may,, but we can all claim that. some don't for sure, but that's not something we can or should concern ourselves with. there will always be crap corps out there.
My apologies - I never meant to suggest that CAS is the only group in EVE that attempts to connect with newbies. Pandemic Horde, Karma Fleet, BNI and EVE Uni are some of the other groups that are doing their part. CSM Mike Azariah is another, with his Operation Magic School Bus. Are you part of an org that reaches out to newbies and tries to engage them? If so let me know and I'll include it in my informal list.
We are talking about new player retention rates. Which, yes, is something we can and should be concerned with.
Quote:so what has CAS figured out? get off station and do shite? lol thanks for that captian obvious.
Not only have we figured the obvious out, we (and orgs like those above I mentioned) have decided to do something about it. Any idea is worthless if nobody ever does anything about it.
Quote:but it is interesting that you guys act like a real corp but won't create one.
Actually, no, we don't act like a real corp, nor do we try to. We have no CEO, we have no roles, no corp hangars or wallets, no SRP, no SOV, no fleet doctrines, no CTAs, no concern about spies, no tracking of ISK efficiency, nobody is ever kicked for inactivity...
(Full disclosure - some pilots do have alts in player corps for various activities, including the Alliance Tournament, but that's done on their own or in cooperation with a few other individuals, and is not SOP for the group in general.)
Quote:you can't blame the player base if people don't like the game. i'd like to see the data on how many players quit because they thought the community was full of arseholes vs they didn't like the game/ it was too hard.. i think those numbers would be closer to the truth as to why new guys are not sticking around.
but, players will come and go, that's just how it is, remember there is a hell of a lot of games out there now, people get bored fast these days and move onto their next gaming fix.
Indeed, it has occurred to me that new player retention is as high as it'll ever get simply because EVE isn't for everybody, and there's nothing the players or CCP can do about it. I hope that's not the case, though.
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Drazok
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 19:30:02 -
[782] - Quote
War Decs Push new players into NPC corps.
Old players with 5 years of skill training screaming orders over vent push players into npc corps.
Code/losers ganking miners in high sec pushes players out of the game or least away from pvp.
My self, I don't really care for eve pvp. I like to play with my shinny spaceships and be left alone. A player cord has nothing to offer me other than wardecs and politics. I did try to put a started crop together with another player and we got wardeced out of high sec.
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Machiste Tombs
Grymhammer Federation
3
|
Posted - 2015.05.19 20:47:13 -
[783] - Quote
37 pages, I admit, I read and jumped, and probably missed someone already saying this.
We made our own corp. Granted not an NPC corp, but we did so to get a common station and keep track of each other, but my answer is still the same for an NPC corp, or mini self corp.
Over my alts, many corps refuse new players, or set SP requirements high enough that you need to play a year to even consider them. Many corps (not all mind you this is not a blanket statement) have long requirements for membership. Some claim new pilot friendly, but that means they add you to the ranks and ignore you. Null sec is guaranteed out. Low sec is almost guaranteed out. Hisec is, well... who really wants that?
If left in an NPC corp, you might as well just play with yours...wait, bad sentence choice, but you get the drift.
I love the game, don't get me wrong, I've started and had at least 3-4 accounts that went dormant. This one has lasted so far. 32k pilots, and space is still a very lonely place if most corps are only looking for 15m+ SP
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13035
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 00:55:20 -
[784] - Quote
Drazok wrote:
Code/losers ganking miners in high sec pushes players out of the game or least away from pvp.
Literally, nope.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
55
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 01:10:33 -
[785] - Quote
CODE at least has active members. Most player corps are just plain failures. Just a bunch of people who might as well be in NPC corps. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
264
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 09:10:12 -
[786] - Quote
just tried to reply to a post,, think the forums is havig issues. 3 quotes said there was 5.
then wouldn't let me quote at all. so meh.... i'll reply later if and when it's sorted. |
Lan Wang
Stillwater Corporation
That Escalated Quickly.
619
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 09:29:57 -
[787] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:CODE at least has active members. Most player corps are just plain failures. Just a bunch of people who might as well be in NPC corps.
you really have no idea about this game do you?
EVEALON Creative - Logo Design & Branding | Digital Design
|
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
330
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 13:12:38 -
[788] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
We are in NPC corps because we want to be. |
Meque
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 13:15:16 -
[789] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? We are in NPC corps because we want to be.
No that is not the correct way of playing. YOU MUST PLAY LIKE THE PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD WANT YOU TO BECAUSE REASONS. |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3079
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 13:17:22 -
[790] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? We are in NPC corps because we want to be.
Such a superficial and empty statement.
There are always many reasons why someone "wants" something,
no matter if the person realises it or not.
Freedom is Slavery
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
<===== I wished my bra was green as well - 1024x1024
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|
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
264
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 13:31:55 -
[791] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:
Regardless of the question posted in the thread's title ("why do players stay in npc corps?") the question posted in the comment you directly replied to was "Why join player corps?" And that's obviously the question you proposed an answer to.
yes and i answered it with.
"because a player wants too. it's human nature to band together to work on common goals, we can't help but to seek out others like ourselves, we're hard wired to do it and for very good reason.
but if you're a solo player it's not for you, don't join a corp, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
but as a solo player you can't hope to achieve goals as fast as a group would.
but some want to be solo, they enjoy the challange of having to work harder for everything.
each to their own. if that's what people want then let them have it."
so what's the issue,?
i'm saying let people play as they want everyone is different and let CCP sort out the new guy retention.
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
127
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 13:36:23 -
[792] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
Regardless of the question posted in the thread's title ("why do players stay in npc corps?") the question posted in the comment you directly replied to was "Why join player corps?" And that's obviously the question you proposed an answer to.
yes and i answered it with. "because a player wants too. it's human nature to band together to work on common goals, we can't help but to seek out others like ourselves, we're hard wired to do it and for very good reason. but if you're a solo player it's not for you, don't join a corp, there's more than one way to skin a cat. but as a solo player you can't hope to achieve goals as fast as a group would. but some want to be solo, they enjoy the challange of having to work harder for everything. each to their own. if that's what people want then let them have it." so what's the issue,? i'm saying let people play as they want everyone is different and let CCP sort out the new guy retention.
Lol ccp DID sort out the new player retention.
They said that players that stay in npc corps have significantly less retention and quit wayyyy more often.
To fix the retention they must then figure out how to force people out of the retention-killing npc corps.
Wtf is hard to understand? Ccp SAID that npc corps cause terrible retention.
They thread is about why players refuse to leave npc corps so we can stop the retention bleeding |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 13:46:20 -
[793] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:so what's the issue,?
The issue is that you assume NPC corp members are not social. A player does not need to join a player corp to engage in significant social interactions in EVE.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
149
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 13:56:18 -
[794] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Lol ccp DID sort out the new player retention.
They said that players that stay in npc corps have significantly less retention and quit wayyyy more often.
To fix the retention they must then figure out how to force people out of the retention-killing npc corps.
Wtf is hard to understand? Ccp SAID that npc corps cause terrible retention.
They thread is about why players refuse to leave npc corps so we can stop the retention bleeding
No, CCP did not say that NPC corps cause low retention rates of new players.
|
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3083
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 14:07:19 -
[795] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Lol ccp DID sort out the new player retention.
They said that players that stay in npc corps have significantly less retention and quit wayyyy more often.
To fix the retention they must then figure out how to force people out of the retention-killing npc corps.
Wtf is hard to understand? Ccp SAID that npc corps cause terrible retention.
They thread is about why players refuse to leave npc corps so we can stop the retention bleeding
No, CCP did not say that NPC corps cause low retention rates of new players.
You might actually be interested in what I want to see happen.
It actually supports what you do and wants it to be standard as it should be.
And lol at all the clueless people here. Trying to explain them something
is like throwing pearls before swine. They will reject it,
because mud and dirt is just better.
Freedom is Slavery
ISD Ezwal > And then Ezwal comes along and takes all that space(s) away.
<===== I wished my bra was green as well - 1024x1024
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
128
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 14:30:11 -
[796] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Lol ccp DID sort out the new player retention.
They said that players that stay in npc corps have significantly less retention and quit wayyyy more often.
To fix the retention they must then figure out how to force people out of the retention-killing npc corps.
Wtf is hard to understand? Ccp SAID that npc corps cause terrible retention.
They thread is about why players refuse to leave npc corps so we can stop the retention bleeding
No, CCP did not say that NPC corps cause low retention rates of new players.
My bad. They only said that the players with the lowest retention rate of the entire game are those players that stay in npc corps...
...
Open your mind. Ccp is telling you what their data says. Your opinion is nothing compared to their data and what they tell us. (Ie players in npc corps have lowest retention rate=FACT from ccp) |
Avaelica Kuershin
84
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 14:38:53 -
[797] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Lol ccp DID sort out the new player retention.
They said that players that stay in npc corps have significantly less retention and quit wayyyy more often.
To fix the retention they must then figure out how to force people out of the retention-killing npc corps.
Wtf is hard to understand? Ccp SAID that npc corps cause terrible retention.
They thread is about why players refuse to leave npc corps so we can stop the retention bleeding
No, CCP did not say that NPC corps cause low retention rates of new players. My bad. They only said that the players with the lowest retention rate of the entire game are those players that stay in npc corps... ... Open your mind. Ccp is telling you what their data says. Your opinion is nothing compared to their data and what they tell us. (Ie players in npc corps have lowest retention rate=FACT from ccp)
Please go and learn the difference between correlation and causation. CCP hasn't given us enough data for causation. Hopefully they do have that data internally.
P.S. You are sounding like another poster. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5501
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 16:52:40 -
[798] - Quote
Removed some troll posts.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13045
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 17:41:19 -
[799] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
Please go and learn the difference between correlation and causation.
Please learn what that phrase actually means, instead of spouting pseudo intellectual nonsense at people who actually have a clue.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
264
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 20:25:36 -
[800] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:so what's the issue,? The issue is that you assume NPC corp members are not social. A player does not need to join a player corp to engage in significant social interactions in EVE.
again twisting what i'm saying, i never said NPC corps are anti social. i also said in this thread that each to their own, do what you want and feck what others say.
so how are you assuming i'm saying NPC corps are anti social ?
because im not! |
|
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
151
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 20:35:12 -
[801] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:You might actually be interested in what I want to see happen.
It actually supports what you do and wants it to be standard as it should be.
And lol at all the clueless people here. Trying to explain them something
is like throwing pearls before swine. They will reject it,
because mud and dirt is just better.
I'm not sure I fully understand your proposal, so I'll attempt to summarize it and you can tell me how close or far from the mark I am.
You are suggesting to eliminate the differences between starter corps (nee "schools," for example CAS or FNA) and NPC corps (for example, The Scope.) Instead, upon character creation, players will be given free reign to choose any joinable NPC corporation to start in, regardless of their racial choices. They will be presented with descriptions of each NPC corp and can choose the one that sounds best to them. They can then freely move from one NPC corp to another as their interests change, depending on their attraction to the activity and focus of various NPC corps.
Is that correct? Complete? |
Nevil Oscillator
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 21:04:36 -
[802] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Lol ccp DID sort out the new player retention.
They said that players that stay in npc corps have significantly less retention and quit wayyyy more often.
To fix the retention they must then figure out how to force people out of the retention-killing npc corps.
Wtf is hard to understand? Ccp SAID that npc corps cause terrible retention.
They thread is about why players refuse to leave npc corps so we can stop the retention bleeding
Depends if you interpret those statistics in that way.
Players begin in NPC corps so the ones that don't progress are more likely to still be in NPC corps.
Doesn't mean that is the reason they haven't progressed. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1478
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 21:48:48 -
[803] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:My bad.
New players start in NPC corps and those players are the most likely to quit. Saying NPC corp players have the lowest retention is more a statement of fact since those would obviously be the players with the weakest link to the game socially.
The more important question is are there clear and obvious ways to engage the game and other players? If there are we see the players that want to play the game moving on to player corps through those engagements, leaving those who don't in NPC corps and leaving. If not we have players that would otherwise have flourished staying in NPC corps and quitting.
Notice how those leaving are likely to do so from NPC corps either way?
The thing is, unless CCP creates favored player groups by placing mew players directly into them this is an issue that won't go away no matter what incarnation NPC corps take. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
95
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 22:14:33 -
[804] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:unless CCP creates favored player groups by placing mew players directly into them
this game would literally turn into Hello Kitty Online |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1478
|
Posted - 2015.05.20 22:21:45 -
[805] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:unless CCP creates favored player groups by placing mew players directly into them this game would literally turn into Hello Kitty Online
Apparently I can't edit my posts or or quote more than a few words so my spelling errors must stand regardless of how distracting or amusing they may be.
Yet it let me post that quote... And it let me edit... but only this post... sigh. |
Nevil Oscillator
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 03:53:09 -
[806] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:My bad. New players start in NPC corps and those players are the most likely to quit. .
If all players start in NPC corps , how can any of them be more likely to quit than the others ?
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1478
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 04:17:45 -
[807] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:My bad. New players start in NPC corps and those players are the most likely to quit. . If all players start in NPC corps , how can any of them be more likely to quit than the others ?
They aren't, though I'm not sure why you are asking since that isn't what I stated. I stated that new players were at greater risk of leaving, not that one new player was at a greater risk than another. And since those new players would be more likely to be in NPC corps because that is where they start, such corps would have comparatively lower retention.
Further, since retention is pretty engagement related, that skews retention even further away from new players who remain in NPC corps. |
Nevil Oscillator
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 04:53:49 -
[808] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:I stated that new players were at greater risk of leaving, not that one new player was at a greater risk than another. And since those new players would be more likely to be in NPC corps because that is where they start, such corps would have comparatively lower retention.
Further, since retention is pretty engagement related, that skews retention even further away from new players who remain in NPC corps.
Not sure how you intend to separate those two issues in the statistics to get an accurate view of the performance of NPC . Not really sure what you class as engagement either, certainly areas of the game seem duller than others from my perspective but again I'm not sure that my perspective is always the same as the opinion of other eve players. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1478
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 05:01:22 -
[809] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Not sure how you intend to separate those two issues in the statistics to get an accurate view of the performance of NPC.
For new players seems rather easy, pick an age to define when a player stops being new and look at the accounts that quit before making it to that age. How many joined corps, how many used the chats and how often, how many were engaged in combat, etc? |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
57
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 06:26:42 -
[810] - Quote
What if a player quits EVE before joining a player corp? Technically the player quit while in a npc corp, but that had more to do with the game than the corp type right? |
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PinkMonkey Dragon
Bittervets United
7
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 07:11:35 -
[811] - Quote
Said it better a long time ago in a post i can no longer find...
but, the reason mamy players stay in an NPC corp:
1. They were recruited into a player corp too soon in their eve-life, and not only didnt they have the skills to be there, no one else had the patience to put up with some one who literally couldnt even fit a web--or use ANY of the linked fits you used to help them. So, as a result, they associate player corps with incompetence, poor leadership, and lack of respect.
2. They joined a corp that was too small--no one was ever on to talk to or ask question to, and so they were playing alone anyway. When they left, and joined a NPC corp, a whole new world opened up, where there is always people on, and always a way to find out information if you need it. It's also vastly easier to do casual things with other people in an NPC corp if you choose to, from missions to pvp. Some NPC corps have a hard core group of pvprs, and it's fun that way.
3. Corps who recruit, try to do too much. We have all seen the ads. "you can mine, mission (4's in caldari space!), pvp. We're a WH corp with ties to null." ... just WHAT is that corp trying to do? If you like mining, you know you're going to be miserable. If you like low sec, they'll howl at you to get into a WH, if you're in a WH, they'll want you to roam null sec. There's no focus there, and no one wants to join something like that. a Good 90% of corp ads are like that.
4. Easier, once you reach a point, to do things yourself, from mining to lvl 4's. If you're in an NPC corp, you become accustomed to handling your own stuff, when you want to. If you're in a corp, a lot of the time (even more so the closer u get to nullsec), you're forced to WAIT for other people. I, for one, refuse to wait for anyone most of the time. I need a corp that either, doesnt plan anything--and can launch ops on the fly within a few minutes--or lets me join right in the middle of one. Or leave. Few corps do that.
5. I has literally nothing at all to do with war decs. Or taxes.
personally, i can do everything i ever wanted to, solo--i dont want to do incursions (and most corps dont have enough people or organization to do one either), i dont want to go to null to lose things i cant afford to lose (because i''m a filthy casual and dont want to grind isk with an alt, because doing it with the null character is banned by alliance), i have no interest in spamming d-scan every 5 seconds in a WH to mine some gas. I just want to log on, and go do something, and chat to people if i feel like it--and an NPC corp gives me exactly that.
That's why a lot of people stay there.
|
Sykaotic
Renegade Armada.
44
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 08:37:48 -
[812] - Quote
Quote:why do players stay in npc corps?
Quite simple my dear holmes.... once they lug all of their chit to the 300 man corps that *might* have 2 drunk guys logged in at any given time, they realize its a joke.
Should change the name from corps to corpse. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
16406
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 08:40:55 -
[813] - Quote
There were 37 logged into VANIS Corp channel last night. Join a Corp that doesn't suck, maybe?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
58
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 08:52:06 -
[814] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:There were 37 logged into VANIS Corp channel last night. Join a Corp that doesn't suck, maybe?
Glad you mentioned corps that suck. Here is link for all potential CEOs. This is the beginning of a guide to help you build a fail proof corp.
Link:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=424421&find=unread |
Nevil Oscillator
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 10:47:31 -
[815] - Quote
When you leave a player corp, do you always default back to your original NPC corp, even if you are -10 standing with that corp ? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37466
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 10:49:32 -
[816] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:When you leave a player corp, do you always default back to your original NPC corp, even if you are -10 standing with that corp ?
Not to your original starter corp, no.
But always to the same npc corp every time you leave a player corp, yes.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Nevil Oscillator
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 11:00:28 -
[817] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:When you leave a player corp, do you always default back to your original NPC corp, even if you are -10 standing with that corp ? Not to your original starter corp, no. But always to the same npc corp every time you leave a player corp, yes.
So if your starter corp was CAS and then you joined a player corp and then you leave that player corp, you default back to which corporation ?
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37466
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 11:03:56 -
[818] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:So if your starter corp was CAS and then you joined a player corp and then you leave that player corp, you default back to which corporation ?
Depends on your bloodline.
I can't say for CAS personally, but whichever you are moved to based on your bloodline, that will then be the same Corp you join every time you leave a player Corp or NPC FW Corp.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
JBM Holdings
Terra Ceia
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 12:35:01 -
[819] - Quote
Because they want too and this is (should) be a game a where a player can/should be able to play as he/she wishes without some dumbass trying to **** in their sand. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13056
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 12:37:08 -
[820] - Quote
JBM Holdings wrote:Because they want too and this is (should) be a game a where a player can/should be able to play as he/she wishes without some dumbass trying to **** in their sand.
Wrong.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1595
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 12:44:49 -
[821] - Quote
Expounding upon 'Wrong.'
Even if you are in a NPC corp someone can crap in your sand, it just limits the manner in which that deuce may be dropped.
Without access to war mechanics the scatology becomes more one-sided actually. Ganking becomes the deuce of choice rather than war. In those cases the aggressor has already chosen the means of your violation. You cannot fight back preemptively to protect your precious O-ring before it's violated, you can only keep a wary eye and try not to drop the soap.
With a player corp you can at least try to fight back before they go flashy red on you. You have the benefit of them being flashy red the moment they enter local. You know the bad is there and you can grab your pitchfork and fight... or you can scamper off to elsewhere. You know. Without that you deal with a local full of 'neutrals' where the nogoodnik who means you harm can hide anonymously until they strike.
Just saying. Stuff.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Shimoto
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 13:09:07 -
[822] - Quote
I have no need to leave CAS |
Nevil Oscillator
182
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 13:20:49 -
[823] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Expounding upon 'Wrong.'
Even if you are in a NPC corp someone can crap in your sand, it just limits the manner in which that deuce may be dropped.
Without access to war mechanics the scatology becomes more one-sided actually. .
I've always wondered what people were referring to by the term sandbox, I had no idea it was something to do with scatology |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1595
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 13:26:18 -
[824] - Quote
Everything everywhere is always about poo.
Don't let them tell you otherwise.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Moth Eisig
85
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 14:53:44 -
[825] - Quote
Short list:
1. My current activities (exploration and FW missions) would gain nothing from being in a player corp
2. My (admittedly limited) experiences with finding and being in player corps have not been good
3. RL comes first, and it's not fair for me to expect to get something from a corp without being able to commit to give back when they need it.
Elaboration:
War decs are not a concern for me as I spend most of my time in low/null.
As long as there are solo activities in Eve, that's probably what I'll be doing. I enjoy the game as an atmospheric space sim and have no interest in null politics or kill board preening. C4 and higher wormhole PvE is the only activity in the game that requires a corp that still piques my interest. If I'm doing solo activities, corps don't add anything to my experience. I'm not in Eve for the social experience, my RL social life is more than adequate. And there is nothing wrong with me enjoying the game this way; please stop trying to convince CCP that this play style is somehow wrong.
When I have tried to get involved in player corps, things haven't worked out very well. The first corp I tried to join eventually decided for me that I wouldn't like their play style (can't I join and then decide for myself?). Maybe they came to the conclusion I was going to be a spy/awoxer somehow. The FW corp I was in wasn't bad, but I very rarely had time to participate in scheduled ops, and they weren't too happy that I would vanish for exploration runs to fund my game time. FW plexing also got very frustrating because the corp apparently had feuds with several other Gallente militias that I knew nothing about so I kept getting shot by blues.
So from that experience and what I've seen on the forums I think most player corps are not flexible enough to accommodate my varied play style and unpredictable schedule. The other big thing is that while corps have many powerful and invasive tools for investigating applicants, people trying to find corps have no good way to do the same to the corp so they know what they're getting into.
The only reason I'm in a solo corp instead of a NPC corp is that it's easier to share bookmarks with alts on the same account that way, oh and also tax evasion, though people in CAS posting would make me consider joining if I didn't enjoy being able to do FW too.
|
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1606
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 15:30:24 -
[826] - Quote
I'm in a player corp (obviously) for a number of reasons.
Most of which I'm simply not coherent enough to share at the moment due to extreme intoxication.
One that I will, however, is this... It's very much nice to be able to chat with other people over comms and fleet up with them on occasion to achieve goals. Most of the time these goals are violent and involve someone else exploding.
I'm perfectly comfortable with this. In fact, this is a large part of why EVE is fun for me. I get to chat with fellow players in various bits of the world, share ideas and fits, and scheme to explode other players who are elsewhere in the world, or perhaps even a couple blocks away from where I am.
My alternative is inane drivel coming through over the npc corp channel while I either silently shoot at red plusses while praying for the sweet release of death... or staring at a damned rock for hours while praying for the sweet release of death. All the while I have to listen to the damned asteroid whispering to me about how I should save other miners from this living hell by applying liberal amounts of antimatter to their hulls.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 18:49:25 -
[827] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Eli Stan wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:so what's the issue,? The issue is that you assume NPC corp members are not social. A player does not need to join a player corp to engage in significant social interactions in EVE. again twisting what i'm saying, i never said NPC corps are anti social. i also said in this thread that each to their own, do what you want and feck what others say. so how are you assuming i'm saying NPC corps are anti social ? because im not!
Ah! I believe I understand better. (No, wasn't twisting your words, I don't do stuff like that, simply had a different understanding of your response than what you wanted to convey.
So yeah, you're saying you've joined a player corp so that you can play with the other folks of that corp. Which doesn't mean you believe a player can't play with other folks while in an NPC corp - just that being in a player corp facilities it for you. Gotcha, I think.
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
133
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 18:55:21 -
[828] - Quote
Forget about arguing/talking to Eli Stan guys
Hes still in a Npc corp so ccps facts and data says he is more likely to quit than the rest of us.
*Fingers crossed |
Solecist Project
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
25164
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 19:14:50 -
[829] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Forget about arguing/talking to Eli Stan guys
Hes still in a Npc corp so ccps facts and data says he is more likely to quit than the rest of us.
*Fingers crossed
It's about those who stay isolated ...
... not about those who play with others.
Do you ever log in and undock ?
Brüste.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 20:31:41 -
[830] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Forget about arguing/talking to Eli Stan guys
Hes still in a Npc corp so ccps facts and data says he is more likely to quit than the rest of us.
*Fingers crossed
Way to foster constructive discussion.
23. Post constructively.
xxxTRUSTxxx posted something that I misunderstood, after a bit of back and forth he corrected me and now I understand him properly (I think) and have no issue with his original statement... and you hope I will quit EVE because of that?
Anyway, to be on-topic again - the data you refer to, it's the data CCP Rise presented during Fanfest, correct? IIRC, that data talked about new characters 30 days and younger. Considering I've been playing in CAS for over a year, no, the data doesn't say anything at all about my likelihood of quitting.
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Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
275
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 21:32:10 -
[831] - Quote
Why?
I am very casual about this game and I'm only here periodically. As in, there are gaps of months at a time when I am not here at all and giving time to the rest of my life instead.
I love EvE, but like a mistress I see when I fly into town for a few days. Not like a wife.
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
"Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied."
EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
|
Nevil Oscillator
183
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 21:56:50 -
[832] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Forget about arguing/talking to Eli Stan guys
Hes still in a Npc corp so ccps facts and data says he is more likely to quit than the rest of us.
*Fingers crossed It's about those who stay isolated ... ... not about those who play with others. Do you ever log in and undock ?
Have you got Meta 1 guns on your little red thrasher ? |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.21 23:20:30 -
[833] - Quote
I understand why you want me to join a player ran corp, need fresh bodies and all. What I don't understand, is where you get off telling/forcing me to play your way. You payin my sub fees? Nope. You buy and build the rig running this game? Still nope. Are ya possibly paying my bills, and going to my job for forty/fifty a week? Oh look, How about nope.
See that's the funny thing about all of this. You in no way, have any say on if I join a corp or not. Your opinion on people being forced to conform be damned.
If I want to lone wolf it belt mining in the deep reaches of space, with the tron legacy Ost blaring, and only a drone watching my back, guess what? That's exactly what I'll do.
I don't need some mouth breathing kid, who knows jack about what it takes to make it in this world, giving me orders. Telling me how to play what I pay for.
Ccp thinks forcing us to a corp will keep us here? That'll actually make most of us nope outa there faster than an eight foot spider/shark hybrid. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13059
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 02:03:42 -
[834] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:What I don't understand, is where you get off telling/forcing me to play your way.
No one is saying that except your own side, it's a painfully obvious strawman by now. What we would like, however, is for NPC corps to not be the obviously better choice for almost everything. You know, that little thing called game balance.
The rest of your post is just you ranting against the position that no one is actually taking.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 02:19:11 -
[835] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:What I don't understand, is where you get off telling/forcing me to play your way.
No one is saying that except your own side, it's a painfully obvious strawman by now. What we would like, however, is for NPC corps to not be the obviously better choice for almost everything. You know, that little thing called game balance. The rest of your post is just you ranting against the position that no one is actually taking.
Then I highly suggest the players step up, and make their corps a better place to be. Yes, the ranting is warranted, due to the air of that position sitting like a cloud over these 40pages. It has a stench about it that's very noticeable, like suburu drivers who eat organic food and wear crossfit clothing. |
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
62
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 02:41:09 -
[836] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:What I don't understand, is where you get off telling/forcing me to play your way.
No one is saying that except your own side, it's a painfully obvious strawman by now. What we would like, however, is for NPC corps to not be the obviously better choice for almost everything. You know, that little thing called game balance. The rest of your post is just you ranting against the position that no one is actually taking.
Don't get mad at him, he isn't saying anything negative bout you, just that most player corps don't offer enough value. You belong to a really good alliance. You guys have a goal and an efficient way of executing your goals. You log in with purpose and have more fun than the average player. I think this is what CCP wants, but there needs to be more players to build focused corps. More CEOs who give a darn about other players, and don't run things like it is a RL business or government.
I can't tell you how many CEOs get into this game thinking that they are going to be at the top and hire players to work for them while they profit. They have no clue about the game, and they contribute to the worst EVE experiences ever. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13059
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 03:03:11 -
[837] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I can't tell you how many CEOs get into this game thinking that they are going to be at the top and hire players to work for them while they profit. They have no clue about the game, and they contribute to the worst EVE experiences ever.
I can tell you. I was an awoxer for a long time, before CCP decided that should not be a thing anymore, so I've dealt with more than my fair share of them.
It's the vast majority of them. It's why I've argued for a while to put corp creation behind a harder barrier of entry.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Vector Symian
0 Fear
1307
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 03:16:13 -
[838] - Quote
Coz they is the AWSOMEZZ!! |
Nevil Oscillator
183
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:06:16 -
[839] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I can tell you. I was an awoxer for a long time, before CCP decided that should not be a thing anymore, so I've dealt with more than my fair share of them.
It's the vast majority of them. It's why I've argued for a while to put corp creation behind a harder barrier of entry.
How will that help ?
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
135
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:08:42 -
[840] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I can tell you. I was an awoxer for a long time, before CCP decided that should not be a thing anymore, so I've dealt with more than my fair share of them.
It's the vast majority of them. It's why I've argued for a while to put corp creation behind a harder barrier of entry.
How will that help ?
So people like you arent allowed to pay 3mill, create a corp and when newbros join, have their first interaction with you. Cuz if that happened, theyd quit and never resub.
Most ceos are terrible and actually hurt retention and hurt players. New bros are gullible |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1482
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:19:01 -
[841] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I can tell you. I was an awoxer for a long time, before CCP decided that should not be a thing anymore, so I've dealt with more than my fair share of them.
It's the vast majority of them. It's why I've argued for a while to put corp creation behind a harder barrier of entry.
How will that help ? So people like you arent allowed to pay 3mill, create a corp and when newbros join, have their first interaction with you. Cuz if that happened, theyd quit and never resub. Most ceos are terrible and actually hurt retention and hurt players. New bros are gullible
What requirement would actually make bad CEOs less bad? Be it 3 mill, 30 mill or 300mill, how does it stop a bad potential CEO any more than a potential good one? |
Carrie-Anne Moss
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
135
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:24:36 -
[842] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I can tell you. I was an awoxer for a long time, before CCP decided that should not be a thing anymore, so I've dealt with more than my fair share of them.
It's the vast majority of them. It's why I've argued for a while to put corp creation behind a harder barrier of entry.
How will that help ? So people like you arent allowed to pay 3mill, create a corp and when newbros join, have their first interaction with you. Cuz if that happened, theyd quit and never resub. Most ceos are terrible and actually hurt retention and hurt players. New bros are gullible What requirement would actually make bad CEOs less bad? Be it 3 mill, 30 mill or 300mill, how does it stop a bad potential CEO any more than a potential good one?
Not isk. It would have to be time related. Maybe the opportunity system they just made? Like useful stats of being fleet boss kills maybe even like ships built and deployables released, there are soooo many crest stats. Maybe lowsec jumps, i duno, there is humdred of those new Crest stats they could use to determine someone with game mechanjc knowledge and someone with none. Just stuff to not allow complete newbie idiots make corps and then some other newbro on a trial joins his terrible corp and gets ruined and never subs directly cuz of bjs terrible ceo who doesnt deserve to have ever been a ceo |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15935
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:29:51 -
[843] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:What I don't understand, is where you get off telling/forcing me to play your way.
No one is saying that except your own side, it's a painfully obvious strawman by now. What we would like, however, is for NPC corps to not be the obviously better choice for almost everything. You know, that little thing called game balance. The rest of your post is just you ranting against the position that no one is actually taking. Then I highly suggest the players step up, and make their corps a better place to be. Yes, the ranting is warranted, due to the air of that position sitting like a cloud over these 40pages. It has a stench about it that's very noticeable, like suburu drivers who eat organic food and wear crossfit clothing.
How do you beat war dec immunity and low tax rates?
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1482
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:35:53 -
[844] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Not isk. It would have to be time related. Maybe the opportunity system they just made? Like useful stats of being fleet boss kills maybe even like ships built and deployables released, there are soooo many crest stats. Maybe lowsec jumps, i duno, there is humdred of those new Crest stats they could use to determine someone with game mechanjc knowledge and someone with none. Just stuff to not allow complete newbie idiots make corps and then some other newbro on a trial joins his terrible corp and gets ruined and never subs directly cuz of bjs terrible ceo who doesnt deserve to have ever been a ceo
The stats can determine having done a number of things but probably won't do well in determining having done them well or having a full understanding of them. It also prevents the concept of a group of new players from forming their own identity until some possibly irrelevant metrics tell them their "ready." While it's not an ideal path in the typical mindset, it's a viable option that probably shouldn't be discarded.
Lastly, what criteria should apply? Does a highsec wardec corp need extensive lowsec, null or WH experience? Does a PvE centric corp need a certain number of kills from it's founder? Does a group of station traders need to bother undocking? Does the soloist need fleet experience?
What criteria make sense for all the valid corp use cases? |
Nevil Oscillator
183
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:40:31 -
[845] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
How do you beat war dec immunity and low tax rates?
With group coordinated activities is the idea.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1482
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:42:40 -
[846] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:How do you beat war dec immunity and low tax rates?
If 11% is low I think you found part of your issue right there. To the other part, if you don't acknowledge wardecs as an issue but a desired method of gameplay then you don't try to beat it. You either accept them as a drawback and try to offer things to entice people or you use them as a draw for members as an activity.
The interesting thing with the taxes especially is that if 11% is truly low the current NPC corp player doesn't look at player corps as an alternative should the tax rate in NPC corps be changed, rather the one man corp becomes the desired mode of operation. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15935
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:47:11 -
[847] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:baltec1 wrote:
How do you beat war dec immunity and low tax rates?
With group coordinated activities is the idea.
You can do them and stay in an NPC corp.
The problem is there is no incentive to ever leave npc corps for a lot of people. People need a reward for taking on more risk and like it or not that reward comes in the form of isk. Leaving the safety of an npc corp for a paltry 1% less tax on your bounties isn't exactly a great offer.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Nevil Oscillator
183
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:53:10 -
[848] - Quote
I don't see the tax argument because A player can form their own corp and charge themselves no tax thereby no longer being in an NPC corp. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15935
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 04:58:41 -
[849] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:I don't see the tax argument because A player can form their own corp and charge themselves no tax thereby no longer being in an NPC corp.
Who wants to play a MMO alone?
Tax is the problem. That is the intensive to get people to join player corps and leave the protection of the NPC corps.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:02:57 -
[850] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
I can't tell you how many CEOs get into this game thinking that they are going to be at the top and hire players to work for them while they profit. They have no clue about the game, and they contribute to the worst EVE experiences ever.
I can tell you. I was an awoxer for a long time, before CCP decided that should not be a thing anymore, so I've dealt with more than my fair share of them. It's the vast majority of them. It's why I've argued for a while to put corp creation behind a harder barrier of entry.
Besides skills, there isn't much they could do for a barrier. TBH CCP misleads a lot of new players about what corporations are. I mean there are shares in a corporation that most players have no idea what to do with(and don't use). Corporate contracts are another idea lost on new players . All CCP shows is how some guy got away with billions of isk in corporate earnings. All that does is show people one side of something. While I don't agree with your methods, I share your sentiments for bad CEOs. |
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:04:41 -
[851] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:I don't see the tax argument because A player can form their own corp and charge themselves no tax thereby no longer being in an NPC corp.
And it doesn't effect mining and trade. It does lead to one man corps as you have illustrated. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1482
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:09:39 -
[852] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:I don't see the tax argument because A player can form their own corp and charge themselves no tax thereby no longer being in an NPC corp. Who wants to play a MMO alone? Tax is the problem. That is the intensive to get people to join player corps and leave the protection of the NPC corps.
Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated. If tax is the issue then going to a corp with similar taxes isn't a solution. If all a corp has to offer is taxes there is no reason to join even without npc corps as part of the decision. |
Nevil Oscillator
183
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:17:05 -
[853] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:I don't see the tax argument because A player can form their own corp and charge themselves no tax thereby no longer being in an NPC corp. Who wants to play a MMO alone? Tax is the problem. That is the intensive to get people to join player corps and leave the protection of the NPC corps.
Just saying NPC corps do not have that advantage over player corps necessarily.
So it is not logical as a reason to stay in a NPC corp.
Where as not liking any of the corp logos is entirely logical |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15935
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:32:12 -
[854] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated.
I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE.
Tyberius Franklin wrote: If tax is the issue then going to a corp with similar taxes isn't a solution. If all a corp has to offer is taxes there is no reason to join even without npc corps as part of the decision.
We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
|
Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 05:37:50 -
[855] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated.
I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE. Tyberius Franklin wrote: If tax is the issue then going to a corp with similar taxes isn't a solution. If all a corp has to offer is taxes there is no reason to join even without npc corps as part of the decision. We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them.
Yeah but player corps shouldn't only have a bonus to PVE. If that's all player corps have then they really aren't worth it. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1482
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 06:07:13 -
[856] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated.
I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE. Tyberius Franklin wrote: If tax is the issue then going to a corp with similar taxes isn't a solution. If all a corp has to offer is taxes there is no reason to join even without npc corps as part of the decision. We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them.
These arguments apply differently to 2 different groups so I'd like clarification on which we are talking about. If new players the preconceived notions of continual decs don't apply, and if actual dec dodgers the idea of social isolation similarly is something the player has accounted for.
And for many experienced players many corp services are useless. I don't need explanations of basic mechanics or SRP on disposable PvP ships I'm not flying. Group ops are nice but nothing obligates corp membership there. What most groups offer many of us don't need. |
Silver Price
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 07:08:24 -
[857] - Quote
why do other players don't play the game like i do?
that's the mystery isn't it?
we must all follow the leader, independence gets you rid of the club.
*sheep noise*
NERF HIGH SEC |
Shimoto
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 08:01:04 -
[858] - Quote
I still haven't seen a compelling argument to persuade the sort of people who prefer to remain in an NPC to corp to join a player corp instead.
Reasons why I stay in NPC corp:
1) No commitment. Log in whenever I want, do whatever I want. Sure, the player corp adverts will tell me all about how "relaxed" they are, but in my experience there is always a level of expectation that you will become a cog in the machine.
2) No SP/Teamspeak/API prerequisites. If you're under 10M SP, don't want to "be active on comms" whenever you log in, and don't want to give a stranger access to your ingame mails then good luck finding a decent player corps that'll accept you.
Not reasons why I stay in NPC corp:
1) Wardecs. Honestly don't care about them either way.
2) Tax. Meh. |
Nevil Oscillator
184
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 09:08:13 -
[859] - Quote
Shimoto wrote:I still haven't seen a compelling argument to persuade the sort of people who prefer to remain in an NPC to corp to join a player corp instead.
.
I would say the scale of operations that a player corp can do
Many activities in Eve are not practical for a solo player. |
flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2920
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 09:12:37 -
[860] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Shimoto wrote:I still haven't seen a compelling argument to persuade the sort of people who prefer to remain in an NPC to corp to join a player corp instead.
. I would say the scale of operations that a player corp can do Many activities in Eve are not practical for a solo player.
A lot of the activities wich require a group can be done without actually joining the corp/Alliance the others are in.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2920
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 09:17:49 -
[861] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated.
I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE. .
Assuming he also plays alone , wich is quite an assumption baltec.I've been in one man corps half of my eve time and the other half in big alliances.I did more pvp when i was in my own one man corp , not saying more iskdamage mind you but just more pvp and i did less pve while i was in my one man corp.In both these playstyles i was 'socially active' and doing solo pvp as well as group pvp.
The only reason i would see wich requires the need to be in a player corp/Alliance is nullsec warfare.This is the key thing though , the NEED to be in a player driven corp is not there for most things in the game and i find that a good thing because ultimatly people should choose themselves what kind of playstyle they prefer.As long as they are enjoying the game enough to keep their sub running it is a bonus to CCP finances and as such to the whole community.
We are not talking about changing the game here , we are discussing how people can enjoy themselves within the given game as it is , i realy don't see what is wrong with that and why people have been complaining about this for years.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3102
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 09:42:01 -
[862] - Quote
I want to see evidence of the baseless accusations by vermin Ronuken.
If you think mass griefing in EVE ONLINE is a thing already ...
... then you better pray we don't actually start doing it .................
<===== I wished my bra was green as well - 1024x1024
|
Nevil Oscillator
184
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 09:53:04 -
[863] - Quote
flakeys wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Shimoto wrote:I still haven't seen a compelling argument to persuade the sort of people who prefer to remain in an NPC to corp to join a player corp instead.
. I would say the scale of operations that a player corp can do Many activities in Eve are not practical for a solo player. A lot of the activities wich require a group can be done without actually joining the corp/Alliance the others are in.
I'll take your word for it
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flakeys
Arkham Innovations
2923
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 10:35:34 -
[864] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:flakeys wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Shimoto wrote:I still haven't seen a compelling argument to persuade the sort of people who prefer to remain in an NPC to corp to join a player corp instead.
. I would say the scale of operations that a player corp can do Many activities in Eve are not practical for a solo player. A lot of the activities wich require a group can be done without actually joining the corp/Alliance the others are in. I'll take your word for it
I'd rather have it you prove me wrong though ... more fun in that isn't there?
Meh i'll just wait for baltec to come in ...
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
15939
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 10:39:14 -
[865] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Yeah but player corps shouldn't only have a bonus to PVE. If that's all player corps have then they really aren't worth it.
Its the most clear and easy to see way of making player corps stand out against the NPC ones. On paper its not much but to a great bulk of people it make a very compelling argument to say "we make you pay half the tax you currently pay". Anyone worth their salt knows player corps are far better than NPC corps, the problem is the people who stay in NPC corps don't see it because they have never been in a player corp. The 20% tax would do a suprising amount to nudge them towards player corps and is a very easy thing to do without making heavy nerfs to NPC corps themselves.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:These arguments apply differently to 2 different groups so I'd like clarification on which we are talking about. If new players the preconceived notions of continual decs don't apply, and if actual dec dodgers the idea of social isolation similarly is something the player has accounted for.
And for many experienced players many corp services are useless. I don't need explanations of basic mechanics or SRP on disposable PvP ships I'm not flying. Group ops are nice but nothing obligates corp membership there. What most groups offer many of us don't need.
War dec dodging isn't an issue to do with NPC corps themselves and more to do with the broken wardec mechanics.
Player corps offer more than just SRP. A small group of miners for example can support eachother, pool resources for industrial activities, protect each other, simplify things such as mass transport and most importantly they can trust each other in these activities.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37476
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 10:46:20 -
[866] - Quote
Shimoto wrote:I still haven't seen a compelling argument to persuade the sort of people who prefer to remain in an NPC to corp to join a player corp instead.
You won't see a compelling argument. because what any individual chooses to do is perfectly within their right.
CCP clearly understand that.
This thread started following the introduction of the friendly fire toggle because CCP are interested not so much in what individuals choose, but what the aggregate trends are. They are trying to develop an environment that facilitates new players becoming engaged in social activities as early as possible.
One of the issues CCP sees is the number of players that remain in NPC Corps and don't move to player corps. Part of that was supposed to be addressed through the friendly fire toggle, which was to encourage Corps to open up more recruitment.
The other side of that is getting more people to look for player Corps to move to, not because NPC Corps aren't social, but because player Corps generally are and are a way to help create that early social engagement.
That's all this thread was originally about. Trying to gain an understanding of the reasons players don't move to player Corps, to provide more data for CCP (whether that is a realistic aim or not).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
88
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 12:03:35 -
[867] - Quote
*Sigh* Stupid certificate problems... reply disappeared in a puff of bits
I was wondering if a large part of the reluctance to join player corporations is down to the huge number of corporations available.
Throw in the problem that some corporations appear to offer everything and others appear to want you on call 23/7, I can see how that could be overwhelming.
Thankfully there is the sticky thread in Q&A on how to find the right corporation. |
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3105
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 12:15:10 -
[868] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:*Sigh* Stupid certificate problems... reply disappeared in a puff of bits
I was wondering if a large part of the reluctance to join player corporations is down to the huge number of corporations available.
Throw in the problem that some corporations appear to offer everything and others appear to want you on call 23/7, I can see how that could be overwhelming.
Thankfully there is the sticky thread in Q&A on how to find the right corporation.
Corporations have no value.
Supply is virtually unlimited.
The obvious solution would be to prevent every scrub to create one,
thus raising the values of player corps.
Why should every scrub have his own corp if he can't even defend it ??
WHY do the weak get to stand on the same level as the strong?
What did they do to deserve that?
Why are smart and strong people being insulted ??
If you think mass griefing in EVE ONLINE is a thing already ...
... then you better pray we don't actually start doing it .................
<===== I wished my bra was green as well - 1024x1024
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Nevil Oscillator
184
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 12:19:26 -
[869] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:[quote=Shimoto]I
You won't see a compelling argument. because what any individual chooses to do is perfectly within their right.
There is no compelling arguement because player corporations and NPC corporations are part of the economic balance. There is no ruling that says player corporations will be more successful, it is for it's members to make it so. |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc
The Bloc
1819
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 14:01:03 -
[870] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Avaelica Kuershin wrote:*Sigh* Stupid certificate problems... reply disappeared in a puff of bits
I was wondering if a large part of the reluctance to join player corporations is down to the huge number of corporations available.
Throw in the problem that some corporations appear to offer everything and others appear to want you on call 23/7, I can see how that could be overwhelming.
Thankfully there is the sticky thread in Q&A on how to find the right corporation. Corporations have no value. Supply is virtually unlimited. The obvious solution would be to prevent every scrub to create one, thus raising the values of player corps. Why should every scrub have his own corp if he can't even defend it ?? WHY do the weak get to stand on the same level as the strong? What did they do to deserve that? Why are smart and strong people being insulted ??
What barrier would you put on it to prevent "every scrub" from beign able to create their corp? |
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Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
277
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 17:47:40 -
[871] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Yeah but player corps shouldn't only have a bonus to PVE. If that's all player corps have then they really aren't worth it.
Its the most clear and easy to see way of making player corps stand out against the NPC ones. On paper its not much but to a great bulk of people it make a very compelling argument to say "we make you pay half the tax you currently pay". Anyone worth their salt knows player corps are far better than NPC corps, the problem is the people who stay in NPC corps don't see it because they have never been in a player corp. The 20% tax would do a suprising amount to nudge them towards player corps and is a very easy thing to do without making heavy nerfs to NPC corps themselves. Tyberius Franklin wrote:These arguments apply differently to 2 different groups so I'd like clarification on which we are talking about. If new players the preconceived notions of continual decs don't apply, and if actual dec dodgers the idea of social isolation similarly is something the player has accounted for.
And for many experienced players many corp services are useless. I don't need explanations of basic mechanics or SRP on disposable PvP ships I'm not flying. Group ops are nice but nothing obligates corp membership there. What most groups offer many of us don't need. War dec dodging isn't an issue to do with NPC corps themselves and more to do with the broken wardec mechanics. Player corps offer more than just SRP. A small group of miners for example can support eachother, pool resources for industrial activities, protect each other, simplify things such as mass transport and most importantly they can trust each other in these activities.
Wait, you don't consider a >80% increase in NPC corp tax rates to be a nerf?
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
"Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied."
EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
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Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3116
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 18:32:50 -
[872] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
What barrier would you put on it to prevent "every scrub" from beign able to create their corp?
As fo right now, what they "did" to get the right to create a corp is train a skill. Like most things in EVE require...
I can not give you an answer. I can tell you how it should be.
I can tell you what should be done to get some sanity into this mess.
I know ways how to bring change to the people's minds in regards
to the game, it's depth and the public perception outside of the game's realm.
Let me try in short.
Corporations need to get away from the false idea of "Everyone can do it".
That's not even EVElike. Why would any scrub be able to form a corp and get away with it ?
That makes more or less all corporations redundant. A copy of a copy of a copy.
There is no originality. They have no meaning. Too many people create them only to feed their own egos
or simply to avoid the npc corp tax.
Additionally, there's this stupid "Fun as a goal" which means that people either do not understand
what "fun" is, or do not understand what a "goal" is, because if fun was a goal they'd have none
until they reached their goal ... and then it wouldn't last very long ... right ?
Too many corporations are flat-out spam !
Society as a whole needs to learn that corporations should be something for those who dare.
Those who can pull it off. Those who gather people for a cause, mission, whatever it might be.
The concept of corporations, right now, is absolutely not EVElike at all.
CCP wants people to interact with each other. It should not matter if the majority of people sit
in npc corp, as long as people play together. Of course there should be a good reason for people
to join a player-corp. One that has actual value, not like most.
What really matters is the environment people are in ...
... and that they aren't isolated from it in any way or form.
Putting new players into the proper environments (they could choose from and switch as well) ...
... would make absolutely most issues go away.
With actual players teaching new players, they would learn to fight.
Learn to defend themselves.
Learn not to fall for every scam.
They would actually learn to "get" the game !
For too long the situation was that griefers drove new players to PvE. There is no way of telling
how many new players actually would rather do something else, but stick to what the griefers told them.
This is actual reality. In some rookiecorps more than in others.
See also: "Lowsec is a deathtrap"
If npc corps were opened up for everyone to switch to or from ...
... then those who care about the situation enough ...
... and those who realise that the issue can only be solved by socially engineering the future of this game ...
... will make all issues go away, because people will learn how it works.
People will stop being cowards.
People will learn that this game is an actual community of people,
instead of being dropped into isolation.
The current situation is that new players are being thrown into isolation ...
... and CCP hopes they find a social environment.
How it actually should be and how BNI/KARMAFLEET/HORDE definitely PROVE us, is ...
... that new players should be thrown right into social environments ...
... where they can opt-out from !
What CCP seems to be doing now is trying to fix the problem by adapting to it ...
... instead of simply CORRECTING THE ISSUE THAT BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE !
New players, like every human in every environment, will adapt to the environment they are born into !
I imagine a social environment where the players are actually valueable assets to corporations.
I imagine players teaching other players about their professions. Trader, Miner, Mission Runner ...
... and beyond the generic crap, Diplomath, Logistics expert (transport), and whatever else there is.
What ever it is a person out there does ...
... is a job that can be done by someone else.
A job that has to be done.
Planting them into a working, social environment with older players actually willing
to form the future of this game themselves would be exactly what is needed to boost retention rate.
Because when new players realise the actual depth of this game ...
... and how people do things way beyond generic gameplay crap laid out by CCP ...
... and how every little activity somehow is needed for every other activity ...
... it'll just blow their ******* minds.
CONCORD sucks. The empires lose their grasp of the capsuleers.
Empowering the individual inside a social group which itself fulfills a usefull role in society ...
... that's simply the way to go ...
... and this does not work with a Big Brother protecting the weakest.
Sorry, the short wasn't so short ...
... but by far not as detailed as it could have been.
Also: Freedom is Slavery.
If you think mass griefing in EVE ONLINE is a thing already ...
... then you better pray we don't actually start doing it .................
Click! Read! Win!!!
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Aza Ebanu
Junkyard Gunners.
Strange Phenomenon
63
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 18:47:01 -
[873] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Yeah but player corps shouldn't only have a bonus to PVE. If that's all player corps have then they really aren't worth it.
baltec1 wrote:Its the most clear and easy to see way of making player corps stand out against the NPC ones. On paper its not much but to a great bulk of people it make a very compelling argument to say "we make you pay half the tax you currently pay". Anyone worth their salt knows player corps are far better than NPC corps, the problem is the people who stay in NPC corps don't see it because they have never been in a player corp. The 20% tax would do a suprising amount to nudge them towards player corps and is a very easy thing to do without making heavy nerfs to NPC corps themselves.
Do you want a bunch of mission runners in your corp? spread all over EVE? The problem with taxes is, the ISK is going into a players pocket for nothing. It is free isk for one guy. If I am a min/max PVE player, I am going to make a one man corps so I can keep the goodies. A PVE focused nerf to NPC corps is a PVE bonus to player corps. You might not be aware of this, but most CEOs raise taxes to ensure PVE activities don't happen and corp members do non PVE group things. BTW, it doesn't work. |
Dots
State Protectorate
Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 19:07:34 -
[874] - Quote
We have 2 alt slots per account. It's impossible to have these alts in a "bonafide" (read: not tax shelter) corps because of how APIs work. I certainly wouldn't be able to have a BRAVE pilot and a GSF bee on the same account. So those alts would have to chill in NPC corps, because the unspoken rule is that is what the API gods demand.
In a way, the corps themselves force the majority of pilots to be in NPC Corps.
Ban account wide APIs.
Ban mail APIs. Mail should use SSO authentication instead of API, and the API endpoint should be removed.
everything is better with ߦêߦÆߦù-ó on it
New Player Opportunities: a gallery
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Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3116
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 19:15:05 -
[875] - Quote
Dots wrote:We have 2 alt slots per account. It's impossible to have these alts in a "bonafide" (read: not tax shelter) corps because of how APIs work. I certainly wouldn't be able to have a BRAVE pilot and a GSF bee on the same account. So those alts would have to chill in NPC corps, because the unspoken rule is that is what the API gods demand. In a way, the corps themselves force the majority of pilots to be in NPC Corps. Ban account wide APIs. Ban mail APIs. Mail should use SSO authentication instead of API, and the API endpoint should be removed.
OMG You're in goonswarm as well? D:
Also ... freedom for mail-clients. :p
If you think mass griefing in EVE ONLINE is a thing already ...
... then you better pray we don't actually start doing it .................
Click! Read! Win!!!
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Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 19:37:06 -
[876] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Avaelica Kuershin wrote:*Sigh* Stupid certificate problems... reply disappeared in a puff of bits
I was wondering if a large part of the reluctance to join player corporations is down to the huge number of corporations available.
Throw in the problem that some corporations appear to offer everything and others appear to want you on call 23/7, I can see how that could be overwhelming.
Thankfully there is the sticky thread in Q&A on how to find the right corporation. Corporations have no value. Supply is virtually unlimited. The obvious solution would be to prevent every scrub to create one, thus raising the values of player corps. Why should every scrub have his own corp if he can't even defend it ?? WHY do the weak get to stand on the same level as the strong? What did they do to deserve that? Why are smart and strong people being insulted ??
Because of you. This right here. This attitude, this elitism, this space snob right here, is the key reason as to why we want nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with it.
Why in the blue hell, would I care to even rub shoulders with such a cringeworthy personality? Couldn't pay me enough to deal with this kind of beta.
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Shimoto
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 20:08:18 -
[877] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:The other side of that is getting more people to look for player Corps to move to, not because NPC Corps aren't social, but because player Corps generally are and are a way to help create that early social engagement.
That's all this thread was originally about. Trying to gain an understanding of the reasons players don't move to player Corps, to provide more data for CCP (whether that is a realistic aim or not).
Depends what social engagement means. There are plenty of chat channels and enough people in local for social interaction. If it means players doing stuff together, part of the reason why I and others stay in NPC corps is precisely because they don't want to feel obligated to do stuff with other people, which is what happens in player corps.
NPC corps in EVE are very much like the social/casual guilds in WoW, filled with people who prefer to do their own thing without obligation and take part in group activities when they feel like it, whereas the player corps are more like the dedicated raiding/PVP guilds who expect a certain level of commitment and active involvement. The two groups are quite different and I don't think encouraging one group to cross over to the other will be particularly successful. |
Nevil Oscillator
185
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 20:19:39 -
[878] - Quote
It's not fun until I reach my climax, is what she said. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1482
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 20:23:56 -
[879] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:These arguments apply differently to 2 different groups so I'd like clarification on which we are talking about. If new players the preconceived notions of continual decs don't apply, and if actual dec dodgers the idea of social isolation similarly is something the player has accounted for.
And for many experienced players many corp services are useless. I don't need explanations of basic mechanics or SRP on disposable PvP ships I'm not flying. Group ops are nice but nothing obligates corp membership there. What most groups offer many of us don't need. War dec dodging isn't an issue to do with NPC corps themselves and more to do with the broken wardec mechanics. Player corps offer more than just SRP. A small group of miners for example can support eachother, pool resources for industrial activities, protect each other, simplify things such as mass transport and most importantly they can trust each other in these activities.
The key question is which of these necessitates being in a corp. Revisions to crimewatch made it possible to attempt mutual defense against any eligible aggressor without being in their corp. Support in the form of boosts is fleet based rather than corp. In pooling resources cans can be abandoned and trade or contacts created to transfer assets. All of this still requiring the same level of trust as being in a corp and doing the same.
So again we don't have a reason to join a corp vs being in independent single corps and just working together anyways. Also the activities involved there are non taxable. So we still have a useless function in that 10% tax. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
366
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 21:03:12 -
[880] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated.
I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE. Tyberius Franklin wrote: If tax is the issue then going to a corp with similar taxes isn't a solution. If all a corp has to offer is taxes there is no reason to join even without npc corps as part of the decision. We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them.
Nonsense.
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Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 21:07:05 -
[881] - Quote
Plus, even if we're forced out of npc corps, and into player corps, what makes people actually think we'll do what they say to begin with? The entire corps warring somewhere over in null, screaming at all available bodies to get in there, and I'd be way out in highsec, twiddling my thumbs and ignoring every cry/command. Rather be floating alone in the dark than dealing with some corp I wanted nothing to do with in the first place. |
Celise Katelo
State War Academy
Caldari State
103
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 21:34:53 -
[882] - Quote
Being in a npc corp:
I'm able to interact with just about anyone. Since my threat status is kinda neutral party.
I'm not going to get kicked from this corp, if i spend a couple of months being inactive.
I can ignore & block everyone i choose from this npc corp with no repercussions.
I can do anything i choose without being hassled, shouted at.
No restrictions on who i choose to group up with, chat with, I can give items away to anyone.
I can ignore the corp chat screen, never have to check a forum or update my API.
I don't have to worry about being Wardecked
My skill training / skill queue, doesn't get analysed or scrutinized, laughed at behind my back, then get told to change it.
My ship fittings, doesn't get analysed or scrutinized, laughed at behind my back, then get told to change it.
Never have to put up with "he or she said this or that" & general antics... of Corp life drama.
I don't have to put up with relationships & the drama of offending ones companion. (This one truly gets on my )
Yes i could add more to the list.. but i think you get the general picture. Yes many Corps will never have all of the above, at a given time. But when it does happen... The door is soon looking like a good option.
I love to chill out & switch off when i'm not at work... So a Corp life isn't for me. Unless its with players that can relax 90% of the time.
EVEBoard ...Just over 20million skill points, each skill was chosen for a reason. I closed my eyes & clicked another skill to train... "BINGO...!!!" ... "This time i got something usefull"
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Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 21:39:57 -
[883] - Quote
Celise Katelo wrote:Being in a npc corp:I'm able to interact with just about anyone. Since my threat status is kinda neutral party. I'm not going to get kicked from this corp, if i spend a couple of months being inactive. I can ignore & block everyone i choose from this npc corp with no repercussions. I can do anything i choose without being hassled, shouted at. No restrictions on who i choose to group up with, chat with, I can give items away to anyone. I can ignore the corp chat screen, never have to check a forum or update my API. I don't have to worry about being Wardecked My skill training / skill queue, doesn't get analysed or scrutinized, laughed at behind my back, then get told to change it. My ship fittings, doesn't get analysed or scrutinized, laughed at behind my back, then get told to change it. Never have to put up with "he or she said this or that" & general antics... of Corp life drama. I don't have to put up with relationships & the drama of offending ones companion. (This one truly gets on my ) Yes i could add more to the list.. but i think you get the general picture. Yes many Corps will never have all of the above, at a given time. But when it does happen... The door is soon looking like a good option.I love to chill out & switch off when i'm not at work... So a Corp life isn't for me. Unless its with players that can relax 90% of the time.
A thousand times this. The auto response to "herp derp, you belong in a player corp" needs to be this. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37488
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:37:49 -
[884] - Quote
Shimoto wrote:The two groups are quite different and I don't think encouraging one group to cross over to the other will be particularly successful.
90% of new players leave the game in their first 30 days. The status quo isn't very successful.
What's wrong with CCP aiming, not to force anyone into a player corp, but to create an environment where that group is able to more easily find the type of content that the other 10% move into?
That is not only player corp focused. That's just one thing that correlates with higher retention. CCP have stated several times the types of activities that correlate with players subscribing beyond 30 days including a higher use of chat channels, trading on the market, taking part in fleets, being involved in combat pvp, using voice comms, using contracts. It's not that these things aren't done within npc starter corps, it's more that the nature of starter corps doesn't provide an environment where these things are part of being in the corp for all players. Many of these things are more likely to occur naturally in player Corps.
CCP isn't out to limit your individual choice. That you subscribed and are happy in an NPC Corp is great. However there's nothing wrong with CCP also trying to retain the part of that 90% that would stay if they can more easily find the type of content that correlates with higher retention.
This whole thing isn't about any of us that subscribe and become long term players. There's no need to encourage us to cross over or do anything different. It's just about trying to get a slice of that 90% for whom that initial experience doesn't engage them enough.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
3116
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:41:52 -
[885] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Eve Solecist wrote:Avaelica Kuershin wrote:*Sigh* Stupid certificate problems... reply disappeared in a puff of bits
I was wondering if a large part of the reluctance to join player corporations is down to the huge number of corporations available.
Throw in the problem that some corporations appear to offer everything and others appear to want you on call 23/7, I can see how that could be overwhelming.
Thankfully there is the sticky thread in Q&A on how to find the right corporation. Corporations have no value. Supply is virtually unlimited. The obvious solution would be to prevent every scrub to create one, thus raising the values of player corps. Why should every scrub have his own corp if he can't even defend it ?? WHY do the weak get to stand on the same level as the strong? What did they do to deserve that? Why are smart and strong people being insulted ?? Because of you. This right here. This attitude, this elitism, this space snob right here, is the key reason as to why we want nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with it. Why in the blue hell, would I care to even rub shoulders with such a cringeworthy personality? Couldn't pay me enough to deal with this kind of beta. Wow, you talk some bullshit.
We're not equal.
You're a worthless loser until you prove otherwise.
There's nothing "beta" about that.
What kind of moron even talks like this nowadays ?
If you prefer egomaniacal assholes who lie through their teeth and
draw self-worth out of their bullshit spacepixel corporations ?
That's fine !
It's just massively disconnected from reality !
Go scrub a floor or something.
If you think mass griefing in EVE ONLINE is a thing already ...
... then you better pray we don't actually start doing it .................
Click! Read! Win!!!
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 22:53:20 -
[886] - Quote
Eve Solecist wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Eve Solecist wrote:Avaelica Kuershin wrote:*Sigh* Stupid certificate problems... reply disappeared in a puff of bits
I was wondering if a large part of the reluctance to join player corporations is down to the huge number of corporations available.
Throw in the problem that some corporations appear to offer everything and others appear to want you on call 23/7, I can see how that could be overwhelming.
Thankfully there is the sticky thread in Q&A on how to find the right corporation. Corporations have no value. Supply is virtually unlimited. The obvious solution would be to prevent every scrub to create one, thus raising the values of player corps. Why should every scrub have his own corp if he can't even defend it ?? WHY do the weak get to stand on the same level as the strong? What did they do to deserve that? Why are smart and strong people being insulted ?? Because of you. This right here. This attitude, this elitism, this space snob right here, is the key reason as to why we want nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with it. Why in the blue hell, would I care to even rub shoulders with such a cringeworthy personality? Couldn't pay me enough to deal with this kind of beta. Wow, you talk some bullshit. We're not equal. You're a worthless loser until you prove otherwise. What kind of person even talks like Alpha&Beta nowadays ? Do you even look into the mirror ? You prefer egomaniacal assholes who lie through their teeth and draw self-worth out of their bullshit spacepixel corporations ? That's fine ! It's just massively disconnected from reality ! I am elitist because I am. I'm far above you. Deal with it. People aren't equal. You brave alt from rookie corp !
Actually little girl, this is my main. You are a cancer, a plague that's haunted online games since the days of MUDs. The sooner Ccp ego checks out of control divas such as yourself, the sooner this game can move on to a better age. You can be elitist all ya want, you'll never be better then our worst.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 23:05:01 -
[887] - Quote
And for the record Socialist, I'm not speaking about ya in game either. |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5512
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 23:11:23 -
[888] - Quote
Removed some off topic posts. Keep it civil and on topic please. Thank you.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
367
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 23:31:34 -
[889] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Shimoto wrote:The two groups are quite different and I don't think encouraging one group to cross over to the other will be particularly successful. 90% of new players leave the game in their first 30 days. The status quo isn't very successful. What's wrong with CCP aiming, not to force anyone into a player corp, but to create an environment where that group is able to more easily find the type of content that the other 10% move into? That is not only player corp focused. That's just one thing that correlates with higher retention. CCP have stated several times the types of activities that correlate with players subscribing beyond 30 days including a higher use of chat channels, trading on the market, taking part in fleets, being involved in combat pvp, using voice comms, using contracts. It's not that these things aren't done within npc starter corps, it's more that the nature of starter corps doesn't provide an environment where these things are part of being in the corp for all players. Many of these things are more likely to occur naturally in player Corps. CCP isn't out to limit your individual choice. That you subscribed and are happy in an NPC Corp is great. However there's nothing wrong with CCP also trying to retain the part of that 90% that would stay if they can more easily find the type of content that correlates with higher retention. This whole thing isn't about any of us that subscribe and become long term players. There's no need to encourage us to cross over or do anything different. It's about trying to get a slice of that 90% for whom that initial experience isn't engaging enough.
I think the notion that involvement with player corps leads to greater retention is erroneous.
Involvement with any number of engaged, knowledgeable players offering a constructive experience (not just blowing up newbie's first retriever or mission running brutix) is what will cut through the seemingly insurmountable challenges facing a new player.
For example when I first started there was a guy in my rookie corp that would take newbies into lvl 4 missions in mobs of T1 frigates. That was a real, constructive learning experience. Most player corps in highsec are frankly less educational than that single experience.
Unfortunately, I can't shake the sneaking suspicion that all the attempts to force PvE into player corps via oppressive tax rates are just a thinly veiled demand that CCP provide more easy targets for highsec pvp.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37493
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 23:55:23 -
[890] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I think the notion that involvement with player corps leads to greater retention is erroneous.
Involvement with any number of engaged, knowledgeable players offering a constructive experience (not just blowing up newbie's first retriever or mission running brutix) is what will cut through the seemingly insurmountable challenges facing a new player.
On the first part, CCP's data suggests otherwise and even if it didn't, it doesn't matter.
CCP have said that players who take part in more social aspects early have higher retention. That was the correlation they have referred to. That includes many aspects other than pvp. Market trading, using chat channels, taking part in fleets, combat pvp, manufacturing and selling, using voice comms have all been stated by CCP as types of activities that retained players take part in early and CCP are interested in trying to expose that 90% of unretained players to those kinds of experiences.
There is nothing about a new player Corp or the old tutorials that exposed players to that. New players try the game and end up playing solo without structures around them that actively encourage trying those more social activities that some of them might like.
That's where the move to player Corps is one way that CCP have also stated, provides greater exposure to those things. Being in a player Corp isn't itself a cause for higher retention. Player corps however do have much higher rates of use of voice comms, use of chat channels, fleet operations, pvp activities, industry activities, etc., especially when compared to starter corps.
Some starter Corps also have many of those things (eg. CAS), but it's not part of what the structure of a starter corp is in comparison to what is acheived in the organisation of player Corps many of which also go way beyond that with irc servers, slack teams, forums, wikis, new player starter kits, skill plans, training sessions, teamspeak, mumble, buyback programs, fitted ship contracts, 1-on-1 mentors, ship replacement programs for new players and specific targets they aim for.
Starter Corps provide minimal input to helping people find that sort of content, where player Corps often include all of that content.
So it's not about player corps as such. If starter corps provided that environment as part of what they did, then the idea of encouraging people to move to player corps wouldn't need to be considered. But they don't, where player corps provide that opportunity that CCP are trying to encourage (as stated by CCP).
On the second part, I totally agree. Kind of what this is all about.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
|
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13066
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 23:58:12 -
[891] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I think the notion that involvement with player corps leads to greater retention is erroneous.
Data isn't invalid just because it contradicts what you want to be true.
Quote:
Unfortunately, I can't shake the sneaking suspicion that all the attempts to force PvE into player corps via oppressive tax rates are just a thinly veiled demand that CCP provide more easy targets for highsec pvp.
Of course you do. Without that silly strawman, you apologists have no real argument.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13066
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:02:26 -
[892] - Quote
Hells bells, even if it were true that people just want to make highsec pvp more accessible and more widespread by giving NPC corps the nerf they have deserved for half a decade...
How is that a bad thing? PvP activity is undeniably the best path to better player retention anyways. If your interests are in the way of that, sucks to be you for standing in the way of improving the game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:07:31 -
[893] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:And for the record Socialist, I'm not speaking about ya in game either.
lol he can't even spell it ... or maybe read?
I'm soo soooo sorry if I offended you by forcing you to learn a new word !
We shouldn't have that at all, no !
People should never ever need to do anything like that !
Rising above ground level, where all the scrubs reside ??
Hell, no way ! O:
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
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Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:11:09 -
[894] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Hells bells, even if it were true that people just want to make highsec pvp more accessible and more widespread by giving NPC corps the nerf they have deserved for half a decade...
How is that a bad thing? PvP activity is undeniably the best path to better player retention anyways. If your interests are in the way of that, sucks to be you for standing in the way of improving the game.
This is an angle worth keeping.
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
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Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:12:11 -
[895] - Quote
The pvp aspect isn't the one on trial here. It's the part of some omni brain trust telling us who and who we can't pvp against. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:12:23 -
[896] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Some starter Corps also have many of those things (eg. CAS), but it's not part of what the structure of a starter corp is in comparison to what is acheived in the organisation of player Corps many of which also go way beyond that with [things]
None of those things are inherently part of the structure of player corps, either. They're part of the meta.
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Unfortunately, I can't shake the sneaking suspicion that all the attempts to force PvE into player corps via oppressive tax rates are just a thinly veiled demand that CCP provide more easy targets for highsec pvp.
how can you even suggest that, surely the good people of this game would not stoop to such things |
Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:18:52 -
[897] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:baltec1 wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Playing in a 1 man corp and playing alone are not equivalent as you yourself stated.
I didn't state that. NPC corps are still social, a newish player in a one man corp is a very lonely way to play EVE. Tyberius Franklin wrote: If tax is the issue then going to a corp with similar taxes isn't a solution. If all a corp has to offer is taxes there is no reason to join even without npc corps as part of the decision. We might know that player corps offer more than that but to a huge number of highsec players all they see the risk of wardecs and no reward for facing that risk. In reality the chances of being wardeced is slim to non but these people belive that it will happen on a bi-weekly basis. To them they see the 1% less tax as simply not worth it. If NPC corps had 20% tax then the reward is more clear to them. Nonsense.
NONSENSE ! THE NPC ALT HAS SPOKEN !
He's right ! The issue is D R A M A T I C to say the least !
There are several THOUSAND corporations out there !
Obviously of these several THOUSANDS at least absolutely most of
them are under constant threat of being aggressed by the HUNDREDS of evil
people who wardec for NO reason at all ! It is a NIGHTMARE ladies and gentlemen !
Terrorism ! It's everywhere ! The danger is omnipresent !
Dare I say Espionage PALES in comparison to the gigantic threat of epic proportions !
....
You are full of Bull.
Can we end this already and get to the part where we slaughter them ?
I will add two more ganking chars to my mix ..............
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
755
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:23:40 -
[898] - Quote
I'll give you a list of reasons why people stay in NPC corps.
They're and alt of a null/low/worm player... (safe isk) also... this is not me.
Here are the reasons why non-alts stay in NPC corps
1) Awoxing
2) Reverse awoxing
3) Non-consensual wars that favor the aggressor
4) We don't like null/wh/low
5) We're casual players that don't like being forced to do something
6) We can't trust other players... because of other players...
7) Bad corp leaders
8) The casual corps we want to be in are surprisingly not active enough to merit being in a corp
9) There's not much positive outcome from being in a player corp
10) Most of the people in a player corp that will fleet up, have crap ships. So, you're essentially carrying the load.
11) If you're joining a player corp to learn stuff, they typically know less than you do.
12) Stupid arguments of stupid things.
13) Did I mention Non-consensual wars that favor the aggressor?
I'm sure I could think of more if I really dug into it, but why? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37493
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:26:22 -
[899] - Quote
beakerax wrote:None of those things are inherently part of the structure of player corps, either. They're part of the meta.
In part, of course.
Just because it's player driven as part of the meta, doesn't mean it's untrue.
Many player Corps are possibly worse than starter Corps, but that's an issue about discovery of the good Corps that the game currently handles very poorly.
But player Corps as an aggregate provide all of those structures and many of them are inherently part of what the player Corp does because many Corps need them to achieve the goals they have.
It's possible to continue to analyse to the nth degree to find route causes of player retention. In the end, it's almost irrelevant though because the causes of subscribing are very individual. So looking at it at a higher level, CCP are looking for where the experiences occur that lead to higher retention.
Irrespective of cause and where the driver is for it (within mechanics or the meta) those experiences exist more commonly in player Corps than they do in starter Corps.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13067
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:33:09 -
[900] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Many player Corps are possibly worse than starter Corps, but that's an issue about discovery of the good Corps that the game currently handles very poorly.
I would instead argue that is an issue with a lack of attrition being enforceable against bad player corps.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37494
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:36:25 -
[901] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
Many player Corps are possibly worse than starter Corps, but that's an issue about discovery of the good Corps that the game currently handles very poorly.
I would instead argue that is an issue with a lack of attrition being enforceable against bad player corps.
Yes, I agree to some extent.
I was against the friendly-fire toggle for that specific reason.
Awoxing can be as much a good for the game by exposing the weak CEOs as it can be a negative and I'd argue (personal judgement, not evidence driven) that the friendly-fire toggle has done nothing to increase Corp recruitment, but has helped facilitate the operation of poor corporations. I'd like to see some data on Corp recruitment before and after its introduction to see whether the flood gates of recruitment opened.
Aside from that, the in game Corp discovery tools are very poor.
Many good Corps don't even have a searchable advertisement in game because there's a monthly charge for it. That seems so backwards. CCP want new players to be able to find social experiences, but they charge Corporations who offer that in order to be found. That's just one example of how poor the Corp discovery system is. There are many other weaknesses too.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
756
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:40:31 -
[902] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
Many player Corps are possibly worse than starter Corps, but that's an issue about discovery of the good Corps that the game currently handles very poorly.
I would instead argue that is an issue with a lack of attrition being enforceable against bad player corps. Yes, I agree to some extent. I was against the friendly-fire toggle for that specific reason. Awoxing can be as much a good for the game by exposing the weak CEOs as it can be a negative and I'd argue (personal judgement, not evidence driven) that the friendly-fire toggle has done nothing to increase Corp recruitment, but has helped facilitate the operation of poor corporations. I'd like to see some data on Corp recruitment before and after its introduction to see whether the flood gates of recruitment opened.
I would argue this has increased recruitment for ALL corps.
Most players aren't worried about reverse awoxing in obviously casual corps.
Most are worried about joining a corp in a major alliance, just so they can blow up your ship and take all your hard earned goodies. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13069
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:41:14 -
[903] - Quote
If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
756
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:47:59 -
[904] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.
What is your definition of a bad corp?
My expectations are that you assume any corp that does not wish to engage in pvp is a "bad corp."
This is a game that is attempting to accommodate as many players as possible, without breaking the mold of what is "Eve".
Casual corps have a right to exist.
Your suggestion is nothing more than a way to break any corp that can't fight or join a major alliance... Which is pretty much any corp that is not in a major alliance..
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37495
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:50:03 -
[905] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I would argue this has increased recruitment for ALL corps.
Yeah sure, as long as you recognise just the same that our judgements/arguments are not evidence based and equally likely to be wrong.
We have no data since the introduction of the friendly-fire switch, so we can't really know with any great certainty.
My judgement is just made on a lack of any observable change in associated activites (eg. no flood of new advertisements in the recruitment forum), no massive increase in the use of third party systems for recruitment like Reddit, Twitter or Facebook that I've seen, no increase in in game linking in local of Corp adverts, no huge increase in the number of character active in the in game recruitment chat channel and no increase in character in any of the channels I use in game mentioning that they are recruitment more than before.
All just peronal judgement and based on my own very limited observations.
Data from CCP would be great.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:52:37 -
[906] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Irrespective of cause and where the driver is for it (within mechanics or the meta) those experiences exist more commonly in player Corps than they do in starter Corps.
For sure. But if this kind of player engagement is both key to player retention and supplementary to the game mechanics of the corporation, looking for ways to incentivise it outside of corporations also makes sense. This seems to be on the table. ( I'm cautiously optimistic. ) |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
169
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:54:03 -
[907] - Quote
Because they choose to.
Now take the stick out of your ass and accept people in Eve choose to not play the way you want them to play. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
367
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:55:08 -
[908] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:I think the notion that involvement with player corps leads to greater retention is erroneous.
Involvement with any number of engaged, knowledgeable players offering a constructive experience (not just blowing up newbie's first retriever or mission running brutix) is what will cut through the seemingly insurmountable challenges facing a new player. On the first part, CCP's data suggests otherwise and even if it didn't, it doesn't matter. CCP have said that players who take part in more social aspects early have higher retention. That was the correlation they have referred to. That includes many aspects other than pvp. Market trading, using chat channels, taking part in fleets, combat pvp, manufacturing and selling, using voice comms have all been stated by CCP as types of activities that retained players take part in early and CCP are interested in trying to expose that 90% of unretained players to those kinds of experiences. There is nothing about a new player Corp or the old tutorials that exposed players to that. New players try the game and end up playing solo without structures around them that actively encourage trying those more social activities that some of them might like. That's where the move to player Corps is one way that CCP have also stated, provides greater exposure to those things. Being in a player Corp isn't itself a cause for higher retention. Player corps however do have much higher rates of use of voice comms, use of chat channels, fleet operations, pvp activities, industry activities, etc., especially when compared to starter corps. Some starter Corps also have many of those things (eg. CAS), but it's not part of what the structure of a starter corp is in comparison to what is acheived in the organisation of player Corps many of which also go way beyond that with irc servers, slack teams, forums, wikis, new player starter kits, skill plans, training sessions, teamspeak, mumble, buyback programs, fitted ship contracts, 1-on-1 mentors, instructional videos, ship replacement programs for new players and specific targets they aim for. Starter Corps provide minimal input to helping people find that sort of content, where player Corps often include all of that content. So it's not about player corps as such. If starter corps provided that environment as part of what they did, then the idea of encouraging people to move to player corps wouldn't need to be considered. But they don't, where player corps provide that opportunity that CCP are trying to encourage (as stated by CCP). On the second part, I totally agree. Kind of what this is all about.
The whole point of my post was that you're just looking at NPC corps vs player corps and deciding NPC corps are the problem when in reality most highsec player corps are worse than NPC corps, no amount of raising the bar vis a vis corp creation requirements is going to change that, and in all cases it's the individual players that newbie interacts with that matter most.
Focusing on NPC corps as the root of all evil is just highsec pvp carebears wanting to force pve ships to play target while they continue to hide their neutral logi/scout/transport alts in NPC corps because tax rates don't affect those functions at all. Start talking about forcing those players to expose their alt minions supplementing their wardec toon to the same risk and I'll be more agreeable.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13069
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:56:05 -
[909] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Casual corps have a right to exist.
They literally don't. That's what chat channels are for.
Player corps are for when you are ready to take a step into the larger world.
Quote:
Your suggestion is nothing more than a way to break any corp that can't fight or join a major alliance... Which is pretty much any corp that is not in a major alliance..
My suggestion is to remove the parasites who use newbies as tax farms, who prey on them by making them mine for months and lie to them that new players can't/shouldn't PvP.
Especially when such people stand directly in the way of improving player retention, and the betterment of the game as a whole.n Why do they deserve to exist, when all they do is hurt the game itself and grief newbies with toxic attitudes and boredom centric playstyles?
Enabling that bullshit is not what any game that wants to keep existing would do.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 00:57:52 -
[910] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:What is your definition of a bad corp?
Can't speak for Kaarous but here are a few of mine:
- absentee leadership
- leadership who pretend to know more about the game than is actually the case
- leadership which is most interested in enriching itself rather than providing content for their members
- leadership who have an exceedingly narrow view of how to play the game and require that their members to abide by it
there's a theme here |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13069
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:00:26 -
[911] - Quote
beakerax wrote:
- leadership which is most interested in enriching itself rather than providing content for their members
This is the big one. Speaking as a prolific corp thief and awoxer, I say with confidence that this is 90% or more of existing corps in highsec.
They are used as newbie tax farms, and they are griefing new players right out of the game with the weaponized boredom this game calls PvE "content".
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37497
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:00:26 -
[912] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:The whole point of my post was that you're just looking at NPC corps vs player corps and deciding NPC corps are the problem when in reality most highsec player corps are worse than NPC corps, no amount of raising the bar vis a vis corp creation requirements is going to change that, and in all cases it's the individual players that newbie interacts with that matter most.
Focusing on NPC corps as the root of all evil is just highsec pvp carebears wanting to force pve ships to play target while they continue to hide their neutral logi/scout/transport alts in NPC corps because tax rates don't affect those functions at all. Start talking about forcing those players to expose their alt minions supplementing their wardec toon to the same risk and I'll be more agreeable.
If that's what you think after reading my posts, then I'll admit to being an extremely poor writer.
The player Corp vs NPC Corp is not the main issue.
Exposing new players to the experiences that CCP want to expose them to is the whole point. CCP have said, that happens more in player Corps.
But the player Corp is not the cause of higher retention. It's just an environment where those experiences exist more commonly in comparison to starter Corps.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:01:11 -
[913] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important. What is your definition of a bad corp? My expectations are that you assume any corp that does not wish to engage in pvp is a "bad corp." This is a game that is attempting to accommodate as many players as possible, without breaking the mold of what is "Eve". Casual corps have a right to exist. Your suggestion is nothing more than a way to break any corp that can't fight or join a major alliance... Which is pretty much any corp that is not in a major alliance..
No they do NOT have ANY right to exist unless they can FIGHT for this right !
Is it that hard to understand ?
You and most people have absolutely NO CLUE what this is about !!
You have no goddamn right whatsoever !
When players want to decide that you can't have that corp ...
... then you can't have that corp ! THIS is true EVE ! THIS !
The irrational idea of "rights" comes from the false belief that there isn't a gigantic
machinery called government that grants you these rights as they see fit !
The ones with the guns dictate your reallife every day and you not notice,
realise, think about it or care ! Proof: If police was gone for a day, you'd all be goners !
No rights.
Eve is based on natural laws !
The strong eat the weak, natural selection improves the situation as a whole !
Remove natural selection and suddenly everyone believes he has something valid to say ...
... because - and ONLY because - there is a force protecting you from being selected naturally !
CCP ridicoules the selection process in highsec and it led to this horrible state !
And instead of bringing back natural balance they apply a patch onto the wound THEY created !
N O !
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:02:05 -
[914] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.
How is the use of the surrender mechanic a mechanism for determining a good corp? That mechanic is nothing more than formalized isk concession for ending a war. This is a sign of having sufficient isk reserves, but how does that directly relate to being a good corp?
For example, how does that system not incentivize further abuse of members for isk to be able to surrender from wars? Also what happens when a bad corp goes for a considerable amount of time without being dec'd or simply goes inactive for the duration?
Also what keeps CEOs from abusing mechanics to kick members during a war and enable evasion, or do they lose that ability? |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
367
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:02:20 -
[915] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.
So, casual players, new players and people that don't run five alts need not apply. I will say this for the thousandth time if you want to demonstrate your pvp prowess there are soooooo many people outside highsec who will happily oblige you. You are never going to stop idiots from making corps. You can slaughter all the newbies they recruit and forcibly shutter the corp and they'll just do it again in a few months with the same bunch.
Also I think It's pretty neat that NPC militia corps have no taxes, literally just found that out.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
107
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:03:24 -
[916] - Quote
Sol, maybe you should lie down. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:04:49 -
[917] - Quote
Quote:They literally don't. That's what chat channels are for.
Player corps are for when you are ready to take a step into the larger world.
So, your assertion is that they don't have a right to exist because they don't fit your definition of what is right..
I know a group of people that strongly agree with you. They're called the ***...
Quote:
My suggestion is to remove the parasites who use newbies as tax farms, who prey on them by making them mine for months and lie to them that new players can't/shouldn't PvP.
Especially when such people stand directly in the way of improving player retention, and the betterment of the game as a whole.n Why do they deserve to exist, when all they do is hurt the game itself and grief newbies with toxic attitudes and boredom centric playstyles?
Enabling that bullshit is not what any game that wants to keep existing would do.
I would like to note that most high sec, casual corps, have a 0% tax rate, and are often there just to have people to game with.
I would also note that many of these casual corps do eventually try to branch off into pvp once they feel they're strong enough and/or if they've retained members long enough.
It may also be note that people join these corps because it's the ability to do what you enjoy with other people, which I would argue, increases player retention.
Grinding lvl 4 missions solo isn't all that grand. However, when you have a fleet, regardless of the payout, it is much more enjoyable.
This is, again, and example of self proclaimed PVP elitists attempting to dictate what is Eve. |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:06:22 -
[918] - Quote
Solecist Punk wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important. What is your definition of a bad corp? My expectations are that you assume any corp that does not wish to engage in pvp is a "bad corp." This is a game that is attempting to accommodate as many players as possible, without breaking the mold of what is "Eve". Casual corps have a right to exist. Your suggestion is nothing more than a way to break any corp that can't fight or join a major alliance... Which is pretty much any corp that is not in a major alliance.. No they do NOT have ANY right to exist unless they can FIGHT for this right ! Is it that hard to understand ? You and most people have absolutely NO CLUE what this is about !! You have no goddamn right whatsoever ! When players want to decide that you can't have that corp ... ... then you can't have that corp ! THIS is true EVE ! THIS ! The irrational idea of "rights" comes from the false belief that there isn't a gigantic machinery called government that grants you these rights as they see fit ! The ones with the guns dictate your reallife every day and you not notice, realise, think about it or care ! Proof: If police was gone for a day, you'd all be goners ! Removed by those who know that only the police stood in their way of robbing and murdering you ! The ones with the guns ! No rights. Eve is based on natural laws ! The strong eat the weak, natural selection improves the situation as a whole ! Remove natural selection and suddenly everyone believes he has something valid to say ... ... because - and ONLY because - there is a force protecting you from being selected naturally ! CCP ridicoules the selection process in highsec and it led to this horrible state ! And instead of bringing back natural balance they apply a patch onto the wound THEY created ! N O !
Hey bill, I think this one here drank to much of the punch.... |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:06:43 -
[919] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:What is your definition of a bad corp? Can't speak for Kaarous but here are a few of mine: - absentee leadership - leadership who pretend to know more about the game than is actually the case - leadership which is most interested in enriching itself rather than providing content for their members - leadership who have an exceedingly narrow view of how to play the game and require that their members to abide by it there's a theme here
I would argue that these are better examples of null sec alliances and corps than they are of casual high sec corps.
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5514
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:07:18 -
[920] - Quote
Removed some more off topic posts. Keep it constructive, thanks. Please don't make me come back for thirds.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
|
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Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
33
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:10:16 -
[921] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Sol, maybe you should lie down. Nah, it's too spot on with narrative.
While what I write is true, as you only have granted rights by those with the guns ...
... and these people probably believe their existence alone gives them rights ......
... the whole situation is just too good not to be exploited.
Don't worry about *me*. I'm fine.
This is very funny for several reasons,
one also being that the weak never stop being delusional. :)
Anyway ... worry about them instead.
They need it. (:
I'll just play the storyline .....
..... and they believe it's real. :)
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13072
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:13:50 -
[922] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
So, casual players, new players and people that don't run five alts need not apply.
Not with an attitude like yours, no.
Everyone else is welcome.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:14:32 -
[923] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I would argue that these are better examples of null sec alliances and corps than they are of casual high sec corps.
When I say "leadership" I'm not only meaning CEOs, I'm also referring to directors, middle-managers, FCs, and the like. Any null-sec alliance whose entire leadership apparatus behaved like this would failcascade in a light breeze. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:16:22 -
[924] - Quote
Solecist Punk wrote:beakerax wrote:Sol, maybe you should lie down. Nah, it's too spot on with narrative. While what I write is true, as you only have granted rights by those with the guns ... ... and these people probably believe their existence alone gives them rights ...... ... the whole situation is just too good not to be exploited. Don't worry about *me*. I'm fine. This is very funny for several reasons, one also being that the weak never stop being delusional. :) Anyway ... worry about them instead. They need it. (: I'll just play the storyline ..... ..... and they believe it's real. :)
I think most of us are keeping the context of the game in mind while you seem to be talking about real life people with guns. I do believe you are the one trying to make it real. |
Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
34
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:17:16 -
[925] - Quote
And they do !
Every single one who rages about loss ...
... and who believes they have any rights ...
... who refuse to learn to survive ...
... cry cry cry evil meany peoples ...
... they all identify with something ingame that feeds their weak egos.
The solution is obvious.
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13072
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:17:27 -
[926] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
So, your assertion is that they don't have a right to exist because they don't fit your definition of what is right.
No, they don't have a right to exist, period. Moreso if they're actively hurting the game, which they are.
Quote:
I would like to note that most high sec, casual corps, have a 0% tax rate
I would like to note that the statement I just quoted is a lie.
Quote:
Grinding lvl 4 missions solo isn't all that grand. However, when you have a fleet, regardless of the payout, it is much more enjoyable.
No one does that for long. Deliberately hurting your income just for the sake of adding another body into an already banal mechanic is a recipe for nothing worth doing.
Quote:This is, again, and example of self proclaimed PVP elitists attempting to dictate what is Eve.
As opposed to the kinds of backwards excuses for gamers that try to claim that mining is fun?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:19:01 -
[927] - Quote
Keeping npc corps are good for Eve, that's all there is to say about it. Wouldn't hurt to add some intern events for player ran corps, show up, try it out, go out into null in a cheap corp provided ship, get a taste of some group play. Decide from there if you'd like to join up. That's the type of player ran corp activity we need. Cold recruitment is done and gone, people don't want that anymore. In a game like this, you've got show how much fun it can be throwing your ship away with friends. Until then, npc corps will just flat out be the more attractive option to a new player.
The whole Darwinism mumbo jumbo is irrelevant if you have people with no reason to leave hi-sec. Sure, your a ruthless space pirate, skilled in online Kung-fu. It's all meaningless when the only thing passing you is space dust, because player ran corps were painted in such an ugly light, that no one cared to sign up.
The systems fine, it's us that's the problem. The players need to step up and make their corps more appealing to everyone. Doesn't mean you need to dig out that tie dye shirt from the 90's and pass out hugs, just means ya need to finesse us. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:19:42 -
[928] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
So, casual players, new players and people that don't run five alts need not apply.
Not with an attitude like yours, no. Everyone else is welcome.
It might also be noted that the very corps you're trying to rid Eve of, often take more risks just by existing than many corps that exist in low/null/wh space.
There are literally hundreds of corps, outside of high sec, that do exactly what casual high sec corps do. Only, they do it under the protection and banner of an alliance.
I would also argue that those that hide behind the fa+ºade of being a "PVPer", yet all they do is attack players in easily out classed PVE fits, are more of a sham than casual high sec corps.
Seriously... Self proclaimed elitists get mad at carebears for existing, yet they have no qualms with players that pad their KBs with PVE player kills, even though these players are just as unlikely to engage in consensual PVP. |
Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
34
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:20:49 -
[929] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Solecist Punk wrote:beakerax wrote:Sol, maybe you should lie down. Nah, it's too spot on with narrative. While what I write is true, as you only have granted rights by those with the guns ... ... and these people probably believe their existence alone gives them rights ...... ... the whole situation is just too good not to be exploited. Don't worry about *me*. I'm fine. This is very funny for several reasons, one also being that the weak never stop being delusional. :) Anyway ... worry about them instead. They need it. (: I'll just play the storyline ..... ..... and they believe it's real. :) I think most of us are keeping the context of the game in mind while you seem to be talking about real life people with guns. I do believe you are the one trying to make it real.
No. You are not getting that the game works based on the same set of rules.
Natural laws.
I wrote it.
Look it up.
Learn what it means and how it applies to this game.
Think about how your life would be if there was no police protecting you.
Tqke the whole package and apply it to EVE ONLINE.
If you can't do that ...
... then the issue is with you.
Good night, scrub.
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13072
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:22:13 -
[930] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Keeping npc corps are good for Eve, that's all there is to say about it.
Well, aside from the part where CCP themselves tell us that they are bad for EvE, sure.
Well, that and the part where you have to back up your statements with something more than a handful of ad hominem attacks against the people disagreeing with you. You know, facts. Like CCP showed us, the ones that show that NPC corps are bad for the game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13072
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:24:49 -
[931] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
It might also be noted that the very corps you're trying to rid Eve of, often take more risks just by existing than many corps that exist in low/null/wh space.
It might also be noted that what you just said is utter bullshit. Highsec is so safe it's nauseating.
Quote:
There are literally hundreds of corps, outside of high sec, that do exactly what casual high sec corps do. Only, they do it under the protection and banner of an alliance.
Grr, other people having friends.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:26:26 -
[932] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Keeping npc corps are good for Eve, that's all there is to say about it.
Well, aside from the part where CCP themselves tell us that they are bad for EvE, sure. Well, that and the part where you have to back up your statements with something more than a handful of ad hominem attacks against the people disagreeing with you. You know, facts. Like CCP showed us, the ones that show that NPC corps are bad for the game.
No, Ccp is just saying they are bad for their bottom line. They are good for new players, and denying that is pure fanboisim at its best. The trick is getting those new players out of an npc corp, and into a player ran corp, and keeping them there, which in turn, keeps the sub fee rolling. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13076
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:26:53 -
[933] - Quote
Do you freaking hear yourself? Sitting there, pouting and demanding the kinds of things that people get in huge alliances, while demanding it for the literal lowest common denominator in the entire game?
You do not deserve it. Simple as that.
You don't deserve to exist, you don't deserve to be safe, and you don't deserve to be left alone by anyone, ever.
Not unless you actually play the game and earn it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13076
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:28:26 -
[934] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:They are good for new players, and denying that is pure fanboisim at its best.
There's that ad hominem again, in lieu of anything resembling proof of your ludicrous statements.
I reject your claim. I will not take what you say at face value, certainly not when CCP's own statements directly contradict it.
Back it up, or gtfo.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:29:53 -
[935] - Quote
Solecist Punk wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Solecist Punk wrote:beakerax wrote:Sol, maybe you should lie down. Nah, it's too spot on with narrative. While what I write is true, as you only have granted rights by those with the guns ... ... and these people probably believe their existence alone gives them rights ...... ... the whole situation is just too good not to be exploited. Don't worry about *me*. I'm fine. This is very funny for several reasons, one also being that the weak never stop being delusional. :) Anyway ... worry about them instead. They need it. (: I'll just play the storyline ..... ..... and they believe it's real. :) I think most of us are keeping the context of the game in mind while you seem to be talking about real life people with guns. I do believe you are the one trying to make it real. No. You are not getting that the game works based on the same set of rules. Natural laws. I wrote it. Look it up. Learn what it means and how it applies to this game. Think about how your life would be if there was no police protecting you. Tqke the whole package and apply it to EVE ONLINE. If you can't do that ... ... then the issue is with you. Good night, scrub.
HAHAHA!!!!!
So, because I don't like to PVP in Eve, I can't survive real life, because of natural selection??
lol
Ok... Lets do a comparison...
Me
Former US Army infantry veteran with 2 tours to Iraq, combat life saver training, survivalist training, expert marksman with many weapon types, armed household, over 300 confirmed kills for my mortar platoon, and over 30 confirmed solo kills.
Vs
They guys you see at fanfest, who preach about pvp...
lol |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:30:30 -
[936] - Quote
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode wrote:Please don't make me come back for thirds.
ISD Mirriam Lobstarr, you can have as many extra helpings as you like. This is General Discussion, our badposting is post-scarcity. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:31:06 -
[937] - Quote
Solecist Punk wrote:No. You are not getting that the game works based on the same set of rules.
Natural laws.
I wrote it.
Look it up.
Learn what it means and how it applies to this game.
Think about how your life would be if there was no police protecting you.
Tqke the whole package and apply it to EVE ONLINE.
If you can't do that ...
... then the issue is with you.
Good night, scrub.
How does one draw parity between space immortals with no upkeep and real life in any appreciable manner?
Also you should probably realize those police exist because of natural law rather than in spite of them. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:32:12 -
[938] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
It might also be noted that the very corps you're trying to rid Eve of, often take more risks just by existing than many corps that exist in low/null/wh space.
It might also be noted that what you just said is utter bullshit. Highsec is so safe it's nauseating. Quote:
There are literally hundreds of corps, outside of high sec, that do exactly what casual high sec corps do. Only, they do it under the protection and banner of an alliance.
Grr, other people having friends.
Oh, ok... So you're allowed to suck at the game and not be condemned, so long as you're part of an uninvolved side of a group that doesn't suck....
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13076
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:33:38 -
[939] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Oh, ok... So you're allowed to suck at the game and not be condemned, so long as you're part of an uninvolved side of a group that doesn't suck....
They're putting in more effort, and accepting more risk.
Yes, their reward ratio should be higher. That's called game balance.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37497
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:34:34 -
[940] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Former US Army infantry veteran with 2 tours to Iraq, combat life saver training, survivalist training, expert marksman with many weapon types, armed household, over 300 confirmed kills for my mortar platoon, and over 30 confirmed solo kills.
Vs
They guys you see at fanfest, who preach about pvp...
lol
I'm sure you're service was extremely valuable for your country and something to be immensely proud of.
But why spurge on guys at Fanfest for the way they play a game, the same game you play? Do you know what any of them do or have done in their real life that deserves ridicule in comparison to military service?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
|
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:39:48 -
[941] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Former US Army infantry veteran with 2 tours to Iraq, combat life saver training, survivalist training, expert marksman with many weapon types, armed household, over 300 confirmed kills for my mortar platoon, and over 30 confirmed solo kills.
Vs
They guys you see at fanfest, who preach about pvp...
lol I'm sure you're service was extremely valuable for your country and something to be immensely proud of. But why spurge on guys at Fanfest for the way they play a game, the same game you play? Do you know what any of them do or have done in their real life that deserves ridicule in comparison to military service?
I'm not comparing them to my military service.
That comment is directed at the comment I quoted, preaching about "natural selection".
I do not condemn those filmed at Fanfest.
I merely making a point.
I've survived combat.. I have training and skills to survive a harsh life and take others with me.
Yet, the player I quoted seems to believe that since I don't like Eve PVP and/or suck at it, I must then suck at survival in general.
The point I tried to illustrate is that survival is not based on how well you play a video game, thus, the video game must not be a representation of your survival skills. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:40:52 -
[942] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Former US Army infantry veteran with 2 tours to Iraq, combat life saver training, survivalist training, expert marksman with many weapon types, armed household, over 300 confirmed kills for my mortar platoon, and over 30 confirmed solo kills.
Vs
They guys you see at fanfest, who preach about pvp...
lol I'm sure you're service was extremely valuable for your country and something to be immensely proud of. But why spurge on guys at Fanfest for the way they play a game, the same game you play? Do you know what any of them do or have done in their real life that deserves ridicule in comparison to military service? Nevermind the extreme shock I'm under that anyone in a 13 series MOS can actually read.
13 series? I'm sure you're mistaken |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
169
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:42:27 -
[943] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Do you freaking hear yourself? Sitting there, pouting and demanding the kinds of things that people get in huge alliances, while demanding it for the literal lowest common denominator in the entire game?
You do not deserve it. Simple as that.
You don't deserve to exist, you don't deserve to be safe, and you don't deserve to be left alone by anyone, ever.
Not unless you actually play the game and earn it.
Its funny you use the word demanding when you are demanding other play the way you want them to.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13077
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:42:32 -
[944] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:[
The point I tried to illustrate is that survival is not based on how well you play a video game, thus, the video game must not be a representation of your survival skills.
First of all, you got trolled. Second of all, not a lot of people actually think that.
While I dislike the attitude you display here, I don't know you from Adam.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13077
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:44:26 -
[945] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
Its funny you use the word demanding when you are demanding other play the way you want them to.
Nope, that's still you, demanding that we ignore the stats and the facts, and keep on the with the same failed paradigm we have been, just because it suits you.
It's shameful.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:44:58 -
[946] - Quote
So what it boils down to then, is you people are terrified and outraged that others can play how they want, where they want. They don't have to endure the struggle you did seven someodd years ago, and that triggers you.
This is a sandbox, not your sandbox.
I'm tired of trying to provide rational thought towards this when all I get are ludicrous "nu-uhhhhh" responses. You want to force me to change? Come find me in hi-sec, and hope you're good enough to put me down before the npcs rip you apart. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
757
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:46:00 -
[947] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:[
The point I tried to illustrate is that survival is not based on how well you play a video game, thus, the video game must not be a representation of your survival skills. First of all, you got trolled. Second of all, not a lot of people actually think that. While I dislike the attitude you display here, I don't know you from Adam.
I also don't know you from Adam.. I however, also dislike your attitude here.
You seem to be under the impression that players should not be allowed to play the game at all, if they don't play in a manner that you dictate as "good". |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13077
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:47:38 -
[948] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that players should not be allowed to play the game at all, if they don't play in a manner that you dictate as "good".
Wrong.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
758
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:49:39 -
[949] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that players should not be allowed to play the game at all, if they don't play in a manner that you dictate as "good".
Wrong.
Well, I would like you to enlighten me on how your comments can lead me to believe otherwise. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:50:33 -
[950] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
Its funny you use the word demanding when you are demanding other play the way you want them to.
Nope, that's still you, demanding that we ignore the stats and the facts, and keep on the with the same failed paradigm we have been, just because it suits you. It's shameful.
Wrong
Look ma...no hands. |
|
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13077
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:50:52 -
[951] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that players should not be allowed to play the game at all, if they don't play in a manner that you dictate as "good".
Wrong. Well, I would like you to enlighten me on how your comments can lead me to believe otherwise.
You might try actually reading them.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:52:28 -
[952] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that players should not be allowed to play the game at all, if they don't play in a manner that you dictate as "good".
Wrong.
No, that's pretty spot on. Just look at the comments you've provided.
|
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:53:01 -
[953] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that players should not be allowed to play the game at all, if they don't play in a manner that you dictate as "good".
Wrong. Well, I would like you to enlighten me on how your comments can lead me to believe otherwise. You might try actually reading them.
You might try actually reading your own posts.
|
Conrad Makbure
Trident Expedition
79
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:53:13 -
[954] - Quote
Local chat scammers/spammers stay in NPC corporation for the safety. I would like to see them pushed out though. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13077
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:55:26 -
[955] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
You might try actually reading your own posts.
Try reading yours. Directly arguing against improving player retention, because it means attention being paid to a part of the game you irrationally dislike.
We've tried it your way for a decade, and it has been proven not to work. Time to go the other way for once.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
758
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:55:42 -
[956] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
You might try actually reading your own posts.
What this guy said. |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:57:31 -
[957] - Quote
Conrad Makbure wrote:Local chat scammers/spammers stay in NPC corporation for the safety. I would like to see them pushed out though.
See this is a valid counter point. I agree 100%. This side of the npc/highsec debacle is completely abused, and needs to be addressed in a productive manner. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
368
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:58:05 -
[958] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
So, casual players, new players and people that don't run five alts need not apply.
Not with an attitude like yours, no. Everyone else is welcome.
My attitude of honesty about the level of competence required to murder casuals in highsec? I guess your arguments make sense to people who don't read or check killboards, but you should really know better.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
759
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:58:46 -
[959] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
You might try actually reading your own posts.
Try reading yours. Directly arguing against improving player retention, because it means attention being paid to a part of the game you irrationally dislike. We've tried it your way for a decade, and it has been proven not to work. Time to go the other way for once.
lol, what?
My way has never been tried in Eve.
The way of Eve is more towards the way you want it, than that of my own.
I want to be able to go anywhere in Eve and do anything without worrying about all the crap other players wish to put on me.
However, that is not the case.
I am forced to bend to the will of people such as yourself in order to play Eve.
I continue to play Eve, so therefore, I am willing to do so.
You, however, continue to play Eve in a manner that suits you, while wanting to enforce your suited manner on others. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 01:58:51 -
[960] - Quote
Conrad Makbure wrote:Local chat scammers/spammers stay in NPC corporation for the safety. I would like to see them pushed out though.
Chasing spammers and scammers with wardecs seems like a good way to throw away isk. If they're in NPC corps it's likely because they are dedicated alts that don't undock. |
|
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
368
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:01:49 -
[961] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Conrad Makbure wrote:Local chat scammers/spammers stay in NPC corporation for the safety. I would like to see them pushed out though. See this is a valid counter point. I agree 100%. This side of the npc/highsec debacle is completely abused, and needs to be addressed in a productive manner.
They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
|
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
170
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:06:23 -
[962] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
You might try actually reading your own posts.
Try reading yours. Directly arguing against improving player retention, because it means attention being paid to a part of the game you irrationally dislike. We've tried it your way for a decade, and it has been proven not to work. Time to go the other way for once.
I copied everything you said. So logic dictates you are arguing against player retention because it means players playing a part of the game you irrationally dislike.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
759
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:07:13 -
[963] - Quote
Lets look at it this way.
There seem to be people that want to compare Eve to RL. So lets do a little comparison, seeing as how this comparison is valid, due to the Sandbox being modeled from RL.
In RL, you have your soldiers, police, medical, fire, corps that focus on combat, corps that focus on production, you even have those the profit from the death and/or loss of others.
In Eve, you have all of the same.
However, in both cases, much cannot exist without the others.
You can't have combat without people behind the lines producing and/or gathering materials.
Police are there to protect those that can't protect themselves.
There are also safer areas where people can prosper doing what you consider mundane, yet, their investment is just as important.
If you turned Eve into a PVP free universe, it would likely kill Eve. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13078
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:07:15 -
[964] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
Why should people not generating income be brought up at all? Just because you want to be petulant about it?
Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities. Try as you might, you can't shift those goal posts.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13078
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:11:06 -
[965] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
I copied everything you said. So logic dictates you are arguing against player retention because it means players playing a part of the game you irrationally dislike.
Except for the part where CCP has outright said that your side is hurting retention, and mine is helping it.
You know, since logic dictates, and all.
Whether I dislike it or not is not relevant. I do, I hate this game's PvE with every ounce of my being. But my opinion doesn't matter, the facts do.
And the facts say that PvE centric game design is boring subscriptions to death.
The end. You lose. You can cry all you want about how you don't want it to be true, or how things shouldn't be changed because it would make me happy, but that doesn't change the truth. For whatever petty carebear reason you have concocted, you are the one standing in the way of making this game better.
And now everyone knows it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:13:31 -
[966] - Quote
Where was the explicit statement that any specific individuals were hurting retention? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13078
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:16:51 -
[967] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Where was the explicit statement that any specific individuals were hurting retention?
I didn't say specific individuals, although I'd put down a few mil to suggest that a few of the more egregious carebear offenders in this thread have cost CCP a few subs.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:17:20 -
[968] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
I copied everything you said. So logic dictates you are arguing against player retention because it means players playing a part of the game you irrationally dislike.
Except for the part where CCP has outright said that your side is hurting retention, and mine is helping it. You know, since logic dictates, and all. Whether I dislike it or not is not relevant. I do, I hate this game's PvE with every ounce of my being. But my opinion doesn't matter, the facts do. And the facts say that PvE centric game design is boring subscriptions to death. The end. You lose. You can cry all you want about how you don't want it to be true, or how things shouldn't be changed because it would make me happy, but that doesn't change the truth. For whatever petty carebear reason you have concocted, you are the one standing in the way of making this game better. And now everyone knows it.
"The end, you lose"
That's productive for conversation now isn't it. That's exactly the attitude needed to draw new players into doing exactly what you want them to. All it does is immediately put people on the defensive, make them combative and uncooperative. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
171
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:17:38 -
[969] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
I copied everything you said. So logic dictates you are arguing against player retention because it means players playing a part of the game you irrationally dislike.
Except for the part where CCP has outright said that your side is hurting retention, and mine is helping it. You know, since logic dictates, and all. Whether I dislike it or not is not relevant. I do, I hate this game's PvE with every ounce of my being. But my opinion doesn't matter, the facts do. And the facts say that PvE centric game design is boring subscriptions to death. The end. You lose. You can cry all you want about how you don't want it to be true, or how things shouldn't be changed because it would make me happy, but that doesn't change the truth. For whatever petty carebear reason you have concocted, you are the one standing in the way of making this game better. And now everyone knows it.
I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:20:26 -
[970] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Where was the explicit statement that any specific individuals were hurting retention? I didn't say specific individuals, although I'd put down a few mil to suggest that a few of the more egregious carebear offenders in this thread have cost CCP a few subs.
"Your side" is a statement that would have to be pointed at someone, and even without identifying who that is the reasoning should stand. I've seen statements about specific positives, but few net negatives.
Even the supposed directly harmful influence of NPC corps was disproven the last I'd heard, granted they generally lack beneficial retention elements. |
|
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37501
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:20:40 -
[971] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Lets look at it this way.
There seem to be people that want to compare Eve to RL. So lets do a little comparison, seeing as how this comparison is valid, due to the Sandbox being modeled from RL.
In RL, you have your soldiers, police, medical, fire, corps that focus on combat, corps that focus on production, you even have those the profit from the death and/or loss of others.
In Eve, you have all of the same.
However, in both cases, much cannot exist without the others.
You can't have combat without people behind the lines producing and/or gathering materials.
Police are there to protect those that can't protect themselves.
There are also safer areas where people can prosper doing what you consider mundane, yet, their investment is just as important.
If you turned Eve into a PVP free universe, it would likely kill Eve.
100% agree and it would be the same if Eve was a PvE free universe. It would cease to exist as Eve.
I think that's where a lot of people misinterpret Kaarous's posts though.
Kaarous has never been against PvE that I have ever read. He reacts strongly when people call for others play styles to be nerfed and when someone is judged as a sociopath or put in some other derogatory classification because of the way they choose to play a video game.
A lot of people interpret that as calling for people to be forced into one play style. In reality it's the opposite. Let everyone play the way they would like to play and because the game involves conflict through interaction, everyone is responsible for managing their own safety, not calling for CCP to implement a net nanny mechanic as protection.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13079
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:21:14 -
[972] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:[
That's productive for conversation now isn't it.
It's not supposed to be. Accept the facts, or don't. It doesn't matter to me which you choose.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
759
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:22:44 -
[973] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
I copied everything you said. So logic dictates you are arguing against player retention because it means players playing a part of the game you irrationally dislike.
Except for the part where CCP has outright said that your side is hurting retention, and mine is helping it. You know, since logic dictates, and all. Whether I dislike it or not is not relevant. I do, I hate this game's PvE with every ounce of my being. But my opinion doesn't matter, the facts do. And the facts say that PvE centric game design is boring subscriptions to death. The end. You lose. You can cry all you want about how you don't want it to be true, or how things shouldn't be changed because it would make me happy, but that doesn't change the truth. For whatever petty carebear reason you have concocted, you are the one standing in the way of making this game better. And now everyone knows it.
So, your logic is that, since PVE content bores you to no end, it is deemed boring to everyone and therefore, at fault for everything.
Sound logic... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13079
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:22:47 -
[974] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data.
Ah, I love when someone tries to claim that a personal anecdote invalidates hard data.
Although it was funnier when that clown Dracvlad did it with Star Citizen forum dwellers, people who literally are not EVE players.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13079
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:23:56 -
[975] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
So, your logic is that, since PVE content bores you to no end, it is deemed boring to everyone and therefore, at fault for everything.
I'm not the one saying that. CCP is, I just happen to agree with them.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:29:29 -
[976] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
So, your logic is that, since PVE content bores you to no end, it is deemed boring to everyone and therefore, at fault for everything.
I'm not the one saying that. CCP is, I just happen to agree with them.
Yeah but Ccps running off of pure assumption here with this. Sure they have data showing that people who stick to npc based corps don't stay subbed for long, but that doesn't mean those people are sticking to pure pve. I do both personally, and I'm in a npc corp. Pves my afterwork relaxation, Pvps my day off fun.
Now yes, I will be moving into a player corp once I find a group of people that don't annoy the snot out of me. Will I be having required log on times and events dictate my playtime? No. I have a life, twelve hour workdays, a fianc+¬, a wedding in 28 days, and a cat. You ever had a cat? Children would be a calmer choice over that creature lol. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
171
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:31:53 -
[977] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data.
Ah, I love when someone tries to claim that a personal anecdote invalidates hard data. Although it was funnier when that clown Dracvlad did it with Star Citizen forum dwellers, people who literally are not EVE players.
Anecdotal: Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis
Please explain how my 2 years of playing solo is anecdotal. I will just respond as you did a few posts up.
Wrong.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
759
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:38:07 -
[978] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
So, your logic is that, since PVE content bores you to no end, it is deemed boring to everyone and therefore, at fault for everything.
I'm not the one saying that. CCP is, I just happen to agree with them.
Well, the statistics that are shown everyday, in game, would counter your argument.
You are saying that CCP is saying, that high sec and PVE content in general are the cause of reduced player retention.
However, it appears that you (or they) have not been logging in and looking around high sec.
There are literally thousands of players who have been retained because they enjoy the PVE content.
However, in many cases, their loss of retention is due to the boredom induced by soloing.
That said, they end up essentially being forced into solo boredom due to game mechanics that try to enforce PVP that they don't want.
See, it would actually be better for player retention to reduce PVP potential in high sec, as more casual players would be retained and even CCP is willing to admit that casual players have significantly higher numbers.
What would significantly help player retention, and entice players to join player corps, would be to add more PVE content that favors fleets, and more specifically, small scale fleets.
If there was PVE content for small fleets that was enticing, I'm willing to bet you'd see more players in corps, and a higher player retention.
Not to mention, carebears would be more likely to stick around after a gank, as there is still entertainment they can be involved in without a big shiny ship.
It would also increase newbro retention if they added new fleet content for frig and cruiser fleets that didn't result in constant losses.
I would gladly hop in a logi frig and fly around running group content with a newbro, if the content existed, as he would eventually be at the level I am; able to fly in small fleet BS content. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:38:17 -
[979] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
So, your logic is that, since PVE content bores you to no end, it is deemed boring to everyone and therefore, at fault for everything.
I'm not the one saying that. CCP is, I just happen to agree with them. Yeah but Ccps running off of pure assumption here with this. Sure they have data showing that people who stick to npc based corps don't stay subbed for long, but that doesn't mean those people are sticking to pure pve. I do both personally, and I'm in a npc corp. Pves my afterwork relaxation, Pvps my day off fun. Now yes, I will be moving into a player corp once I find a group of people that don't annoy the snot out of me. Will I be having required log on times and events dictate my playtime? No. I have a life, twelve hour workdays, a fianc+¬, a wedding in 28 days, and a cat. You ever had a cat? Children would be a calmer choice over that creature lol.
There seems to be a good amount of reading too much into statements about data we haven't actually seen on both sides unless something is being missed here.
For instance, I've seen PvP as one element of aspects keeping people in game, but it's right up with market interaction and being in a corp in general.
I haven't seen that PvE'ers in PvE corps are specifically detracting. Rather that the old NPE only taught you PvE, which was an issue.
Basically I've not seen anything that supports making demands of established players and their ability to make a corp. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37502
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:38:31 -
[980] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data.
No, I don't believe that is a valid conclusion from CCPs analysis.
At Fanfest this year CCP Rise gave an anecdote about another CCP employee who had joined the game many years ago and had happily played in his starter Corp since then, involved in a range of highsec PvE activities. It is a perfectly fine choice. (e. It might have actually been the CCP employee himself and not Rise who relayed the anecdote. I'll try to find it)
However, when all the data is aggregated, that style of play is not the most successful way to produce long term subscribed players. For those it suits, it's great.
For the bulk of people, other experiences seem to be more likely to result in long term subscription.
CCP are also not interested in forcing people down one specific path. They just want to expose people to more varied experience early with some control to ensure they get the needed skills and then hopefully more will find the play style that hooks them, whether that's solo npc Corp play or not.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
|
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 02:45:49 -
[981] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Syn Shi wrote:I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data. No, I don't believe that is a valid conclusion from CCPs analysis. At Fanfest this year CCP Rise gave an anecdote about another CCP employee who had joined the game many years ago and had happily played in his starter Corp since then, involved in a range of highsec PvE activities. It is a perfectly fine choice. However, when all the data is aggregated, that style of play is not the most successful way to produce long term subscribed players. For those it suits, it's great. For the bulk of people, other experiences seem to be more likely to result in long term subscription.
The issue causing the butting of heads now seems to be the idea that the CCP employee in Rise's story should, by some viewpoints, be barred from leaving his NPC corp, or at least from starting a corp even for like minded pilots unless dramatically changing to a more confrontational response to aggression such as a wardec.
Basically one party is saying that because that is not the optimal course, alongside possibly some other information, one following that course should not be allowed to make or be in a corp. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
368
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:02:51 -
[982] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities.
Well no. Risk vs. Reward should apply to kills and other forms of content more than meaningless space bux.
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
368
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:05:55 -
[983] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Syn Shi wrote:I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data. No, I don't believe that is a valid conclusion from CCPs analysis. At Fanfest this year CCP Rise gave an anecdote about another CCP employee who had joined the game many years ago and had happily played in his starter Corp since then, involved in a range of highsec PvE activities. It is a perfectly fine choice. However, when all the data is aggregated, that style of play is not the most successful way to produce long term subscribed players. For those it suits, it's great. For the bulk of people, other experiences seem to be more likely to result in long term subscription. The issue causing the butting of heads now seems to be the idea that the CCP employee in Rise's story should, by some viewpoints, be barred from leaving his NPC corp, or at least from starting a corp even for like minded pilots unless dramatically changing to a more confrontational response to aggression such as a wardec. Basically one party is saying that because that is not the optimal course, alongside possibly some other information, one following that course should not be allowed to make or be in a corp.
Actually what they want is a 20-30% NPC corp tax rate or one sufficient to make PvE without exposure to wardecs impossible. Basically, they want every player in highsec that is there with the goal of farming ISK to be open to attack. NPC alts of characters farming in other areas of space secured by their respective blob will be unaffected. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:10:25 -
[984] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Syn Shi wrote:I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data. No, I don't believe that is a valid conclusion from CCPs analysis. At Fanfest this year CCP Rise gave an anecdote about another CCP employee who had joined the game many years ago and had happily played in his starter Corp since then, involved in a range of highsec PvE activities. It is a perfectly fine choice. However, when all the data is aggregated, that style of play is not the most successful way to produce long term subscribed players. For those it suits, it's great. For the bulk of people, other experiences seem to be more likely to result in long term subscription. The issue causing the butting of heads now seems to be the idea that the CCP employee in Rise's story should, by some viewpoints, be barred from leaving his NPC corp, or at least from starting a corp even for like minded pilots unless dramatically changing to a more confrontational response to aggression such as a wardec. Basically one party is saying that because that is not the optimal course, alongside possibly some other information, one following that course should not be allowed to make or be in a corp. Actually what they want is a 20-30% NPC corp tax rate or one sufficient to make PvE without exposure to wardecs impossible. Basically, they want every player in highsec that is there with the goal of farming ISK to be open to attack. NPC alts of characters farming in other areas of space secured by their respective blob will be unaffected.
It might also be noted that they want more forced PvP.
They could give two craps about what you/we enjoy.
They want what they enjoy to be forced on others, so that they have more people to enjoy killing.
Why would they go out and shoot targets that fight back?
That's no fun....
|
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
172
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:11:35 -
[985] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Syn Shi wrote:I have played Eve for 2 years...solo. According to CCPs analysis I should have been gone...but I am still here.
So much for you data. No, I don't believe that is a valid conclusion from CCPs analysis. At Fanfest this year CCP Rise gave an anecdote about another CCP employee who had joined the game many years ago and had happily played in his starter Corp since then, involved in a range of highsec PvE activities. It is a perfectly fine choice. (e. It might have actually been the CCP employee himself and not Rise who relayed the anecdote. I'll try to find it) However, when all the data is aggregated, that style of play is not the most successful way to produce long term subscribed players. For those it suits, it's great. For the bulk of people, other experiences seem to be more likely to result in long term subscription. CCP are also not interested in forcing people down one specific path. They just want to expose people to more varied experience early with some control to ensure they get the needed skills and then hopefully more will find the play style that hooks them, whether that's solo npc Corp play or not.
My in game play time is not a conclusion of CCP's analysis. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37503
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:12:50 -
[986] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Actually what they want is a 20-30% NPC corp tax rate or one sufficient to make PvE without exposure to wardecs impossible. Basically, they want every player in highsec that is there with the goal of farming ISK to be open to attack. NPC alts of characters farming in other areas of space secured by their respective blob will be unaffected.
Who is 'they'?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37503
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:21:25 -
[987] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:My in game play time is not a conclusion of CCP's analysis.
I doubt CCP have looked individually at your play time, but if they did how could they deny it? That would make no logical sense.
If your saying CCP have no data on the different play styles and specifically the solo play style, they clearly do have that data and recognise your play style as just as valid as any other.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:23:10 -
[988] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Actually what they want is a 20-30% NPC corp tax rate or one sufficient to make PvE without exposure to wardecs impossible. Basically, they want every player in highsec that is there with the goal of farming ISK to be open to attack. NPC alts of characters farming in other areas of space secured by their respective blob will be unaffected. Who is 'they'?
"They" are in for a huge disappointment when myself and countless others just drop the npc corp to avoid the tax, and carry on as usual. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:24:47 -
[989] - Quote
Regardless of what any of us thinks, based on changes since Eve began, it appears CCP is well aware, and conforming to the fact that the only way to bring in and retain more players is to develop a more casual and user friendly game.
Changes to med clones as a prime example. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37503
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:30:23 -
[990] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:[quote=Scipio Artelius]Who is 'they'?"They" are in for a huge disappointment when myself and countless others just drop the npc corp to avoid the tax, and carry on as usual.
Yeah but where is the specifics of who 'they' is?
Who has called for a 20-30% NPC Corp tax?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:39:19 -
[991] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:[quote=Scipio Artelius]Who is 'they'?"They" are in for a huge disappointment when myself and countless others just drop the npc corp to avoid the tax, and carry on as usual. Yeah but where is the specifics of who 'they' is? Who has called for a 20-30% NPC Corp tax?
Follies of collectivism aside it's not really productive to name and shame, but we've had claims that increasing the tax would provide incentive to player corps.
And as for that one, yeah, most recent example sure. We've had other participants in the thread claim higher numbers over the various incarnations of this conversation. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37503
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:45:58 -
[992] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Scipio Artelius]Follies of collectivism aside it's not really productive to name and shame, but we've had claims that increasing the tax would provide incentive to player corps.
And as for that one, yeah, most recent example sure. We've had other participants in the thread claim higher numbers over the various incarnations of this conversation.
Nothing to do with naming and shaming. Everything to do with basing discussions on valid information and not imagined details.
Yes there have been a few calls for increased taxes, that's not the same as 20-30% and on the whole they are easy to just completely ignore.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:50:20 -
[993] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:[quote=Scipio Artelius]Follies of collectivism aside it's not really productive to name and shame, but we've had claims that increasing the tax would provide incentive to player corps.
And as for that one, yeah, most recent example sure. We've had other participants in the thread claim higher numbers over the various incarnations of this conversation. Nothing to do with naming and shaming. Everything to do with basing discussions on valid information and not imagined details. Yes there have been a few calls for increased taxes, that's not the same as 20-30% and on the whole they are easy to just completely ignore.
Were the conversation limited to this thread I would agree. It hasn't been. We've seen numbers above 30% and claims with no numbers at all. These aren't imagined, though for the claim that they are shouldn't the legwork be yours? Know that to actually do it justice you wouldn't be limited to just this thread.
The only recent call I've seen was actually for 20%, was the one you saw different? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37503
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 03:55:22 -
[994] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The only recent call I've seen was actually for 20%, was the one you saw different?
No, same one. I acknowledged it in an edit to my post above. I've said my bit on inventing information so will just drop it from here because we are way off topic with this and it'll never change anyway.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1483
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 04:02:27 -
[995] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The only recent call I've seen was actually for 20%, was the one you saw different? No, same one. I acknowledged it in an edit to my post above. I've said my bit on inventing information so will just drop it from here because we are way off topic with this and it'll never change anyway.
I'll leave it alone as well after adding that the search tool here was forthcoming with suggestions ranging from 20% to 50% from various posters. The issue with saying opinions are invented is that those written opinions can often be found with minimal effort. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37503
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 05:03:14 -
[996] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The issue with saying opinions are invented is that those written opinions can often be found with minimal effort.
Why is there always an "I'll leave it alone...only after just adding one more point to hammer my own view home..."
Fair enough. I also looked at the search function. The overwhelming number of results found when searching the forum for "increase npc corp tax" result in the one post I remember (the 50% figure) and that same post quoted several other times in responses. There are a couple of other things that pop up also.
Was kind of the whole point of my original question. People invent things to make their own argument stronger and when asked for the information to see that what they are saying is correct, it's rarely forthcoming, even if it is correct. I'm always happy to accept what people say, just offer the justification for it when it doesn't seem straight forward. So far, that justification still isn't clear.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25013
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 05:25:41 -
[997] - Quote
I'm going to quote Sabriz in a roundabout way, but disincentivizing something, like 50% tax, is akin to saying "we shouldn't have it in the game at all". It is not a good design.
Instead give PVE bonuses that scale with number of members and time spent by a member in that corp and the lifetime of the corp. Incentivize people to band together and then stick it out. Membership loyalty benefits is a well known and widely used incentivizing tactic.
Edit: grammar
Edit 2: Really surprised by the back and forth discussion above. Here's a suggestion on the front page of GD for a 50% NPC tax.
8.000 dead, 18,000 injured, 130k homes destroyed. PLEX for Good: Nepal Earthquake Relief. USD $15 donated for each PLEX you donate. Loose ISK can be sent to Chribba
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beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 06:15:15 -
[998] - Quote
what happened to your head? |
Solecist Punk
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
48
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 06:36:00 -
[999] - Quote
lol Yuri sent me a mail calling me a damaged individual.
For that I will kill someone in your name, scum.
<----- Profile pic - 1024x1024
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1038
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 06:55:34 -
[1000] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Regardless of what any of us thinks, based on changes since Eve began, it appears CCP is well aware, and conforming to the fact that the only way to bring in and retain more players is to develop a more casual and user friendly game.
Changes to med clones as a prime example.
Perhaps more accessible, but not more solo or PvE friendly.
The presentations at fanfest made it clear and posts like this one from CCP Rise make it clear that CCP is moving the game in direction of social and competitive play. They have recognized that solo, "leveling my Raven" play is not where Eve shines and expect to see more things to encourage players to get out of NPC corps and try other things than solo missioning or mining.
That's not to say they will eliminate NPC corps or make them so punitive that no one can stay in them as there are players that enjoy that style of play. But there will definitely be more efforts to "encourage" players, especially new players, to get into corps and other social groups. How can anyone come here and argue with a straight face that is not a good thing? This will be done by increased social tools, and I predict more carrots rather than sticks to get players out of NPCs corps. These will be things that are only available to corps, some which buff income, like new structures.
NPC corps will and should always exist for the player that has lost everything and needs to rebuild, or for a new player or extremely casual player just messing around. But they shouldn't be a place where established players can hide forever and make a competitive income in near-complete safety from other players. Players should be encouraged by the game mechanics to form and defend player corporations and be rewarded for that. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13099
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 10:23:16 -
[1001] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities. Well no. Risk vs. Reward should apply to kills and other forms of content more than meaningless space bux.
It already does, that's what the Loot Fairy is for in the first place.
But income generating activities, those things that you can do that add assets into the game world, those are what risk vs reward primarily targets.
It exists to combat rampant inflation, because the economy is driven by loss.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Nevil Oscillator
185
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 17:48:18 -
[1002] - Quote
There is really no moral obligation to join a player corp, there are many greater moral dilemas in this game than that. lol |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
368
|
Posted - 2015.05.23 19:47:29 -
[1003] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
They don't leave station so it's irrelevant. I did say that all the bittervet combat support and hauler alts hiding in NPC corps should be at risk also, rather than ONLY the people flying industrials or mission boats in highsec as their primary activity.
Risk vs reward purely reflects against income generating activities. Well no. Risk vs. Reward should apply to kills and other forms of content more than meaningless space bux. It already does, that's what the Loot Fairy is for in the first place. But income generating activities, those things that you can do that add assets into the game world, those are what risk vs reward primarily targets. It exists to combat rampant inflation, because the economy is driven by loss.
I don't think there is a lack of loss in EVE. And I don't see how you can view inflation as such a serious problem, over farming is an issue that corrects itself as the more people that are farming a specific resource the more the value of that resource will drop. It's a self correcting problem.
I haven't heard of CCP's pet economist talking about rampant inflation in the money supply as a mortal threat to the game's economy. So I'm going to stand by my opinion that killmails, bragging rights, content that has intrinsic value greater than pixel dollars and is the reason most of us are here, should be more subject to risk vs reward than ISK. I don't see what the loot fairy has to do with anything as that's just a determinant of how much ISK can be generated through PvP and most PvP doesn't involve ISK generation as the primary objective.
I'm sorry I look at killboards and I don't really see a devastating lack of destruction in EVE. What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
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Nevil Oscillator
186
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 04:25:24 -
[1004] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote: What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13108
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 10:26:45 -
[1005] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.
Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 15:04:35 -
[1006] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition. Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution.
Making PVP more accessible, yes.
Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no.
See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting.
When in fact, the opposite it true.
For now, CCP seems to be happy with the income they gain from the dedicated, smaller group, that enjoy Eve exactly the way it is.
HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach.
What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this.
They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster.
They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier.
They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker.
Changes to awoxing.
Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against.
Removal of med clones.
There are likely other changes I can't think of.
Meanwhile, they're making null sec life more difficult, low sec more worthwhile, WH space more entertaining, and high sec more safe.
See, to me it appears they're trying to build a game that will accommodate all play styles and all types of players.
So, high sec will be casual, low will be a buffer to get experience with PvP, WH space will be a slightly safer version of null, while null will be fore the dedicated hard cores.
Give it time... I can see the shift.
Maybe you are oblivious? |
Nevil Oscillator
186
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 15:23:22 -
[1007] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition. Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution. Making PVP more accessible, yes. Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no. See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting. When in fact, the opposite it true. For now, CCP seems to be happy with the income they gain from the dedicated, smaller group, that enjoy Eve exactly the way it is. HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach. What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this. They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster. They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier. They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker. Changes to awoxing. Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against. Removal of med clones. There are likely other changes I can't think of. Meanwhile, they're making null sec life more difficult, low sec more worthwhile, WH space more entertaining, and high sec more safe. See, to me it appears they're trying to build a game that will accommodate all play styles and all types of players. So, high sec will be casual, low will be a buffer to get experience with PvP, WH space will be a slightly safer version of null, while null will be fore the dedicated hard cores. Give it time... I can see the shift. Maybe you are oblivious?
Perhaps there could be other ways of losing concord protection. Your safety green setting will always protect you unless you have a sec status of -5. I think I suggested once that corporations should run missions to hunt and kill players with very low standing. A nice idea but I don't think it would be worth doing the way eve currently works.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 16:02:45 -
[1008] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:[quote=Demerius Xenocratus] What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition. Making highsec PvP more accessible would help, whether you were joking about that or not. The only reason most of the existing wardec and ganker groups have such a field day is because they're big enough and organized enough to have a functional monopoly on space violence, since the restrictive mechanics make conglomeration into large groups the only reasonable solution. Making PVP more accessible, yes. Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no. See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting. When in fact, the opposite it true. For now, CCP seems to be happy with the income they gain from the dedicated, smaller group, that enjoy Eve exactly the way it is. HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach. What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this. They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster. They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier. They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker. Changes to awoxing. Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against. Removal of med clones. There are likely other changes I can't think of. Meanwhile, they're making null sec life more difficult, low sec more worthwhile, WH space more entertaining, and high sec more safe. See, to me it appears they're trying to build a game that will accommodate all play styles and all types of players. So, high sec Perhaps there could be other ways of losing concord protection. Your safety green setting will always protect you unless you have a sec status of -5. I think I suggested once that corporations should run missions to hunt and kill players with very low standing. A nice idea but I don't think it would be worth doing the way eve currently works.
The problem then becomes, where do you find PVE players that would accept the mission to attack another player?
I think it's a cool idea, but it should be something for bounty hunters. |
Nevil Oscillator
186
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 18:50:04 -
[1009] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
The problem then becomes, where do you find PVE players that would accept the mission to attack another player?
I think it's a cool idea, but it should be something for bounty hunters.
I'm not sure what you mean
Isn't that like saying industry should be something for arms dealers ? |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
372
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 21:45:16 -
[1010] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote: What I do see is a set of players accustomed to doing their destruction in high sec that see that becoming more difficult and requiring a little more effort, and they are understandably not happy about it. If I'd been playing longer and developed an entire playing style around violencing stupid in highsec I'd no doubt feel the same way.
The answer is nerf high sec so that everyone can get in on the action and start shooting unarmed industrial ships to give them more competition.
Can't tell if serious.
Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13112
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 23:13:59 -
[1011] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Making PVP more accessible, yes.
Making PVP more forced and mandatory, no.
They are the same thing. Non consensual PvP is the cornerstone of EVE Online, and making highsec PvP more accessible means more wars, more ganking, and more reason to bother defending yourself.
And with more ship loss, comes more profit for industrial players, and the economy cycles through more often.
Quote:
See, you seem to be under the blind assumption that your play style is accepted by all, and what will keep Eve alive and profiting.
When in fact, the opposite it true.
Oh? Because that kinda flies in the face of CCP's own statements, that those players involved in non consensual PvP have the highest retention rates.
And since we know that making them chew on rocks for weeks makes their subs evaporate, it looks like it's pretty clear what really does keep EVE alive and profiting.
Quote:
HOWEVER, if they want to be big, and bring in a lot more players, they'll have to take a more casual approach.
You mean kill the game. Because, you know, every MMO in the history of the genre has died after attempting precisely that. Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies being big examples.
Quote:
What everyone seems to be missing is that CCP is already doing this.
They changed the way Concord works, so that they respond faster.
They've made normally ganked ships beefier and/or given them accessibility to fit beefier.
They made changes to wardecs, though still one sided, gives the target a way out and makes it a bit more costly to the attacker.
Changes to awoxing.
Changes to the new player experience, which believe it or not, hard cores were against.
Removal of med clones.
There are likely other changes I can't think of.
And yet, player count drops, coinciding nicely with those things happening, too. Looks like most of those were bad things in the long term, despite the claims of the social rejects who try to say that ruining anything good about this game will bring more players.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13112
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 23:16:46 -
[1012] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy.
It's no more inherently hard, or easy, than any other kind of PvP.
It's ease, or difficulty, is entirely dependent on people's ability to defend themselves competently. You're basically complaining that highsec players suck at the game. But the funny part is that they suck at the game because highsec coddles them so much, that unless they run into the exceedingly rare occurrence of being killed by someone like me, they never have to learn how to play the game correctly.
Quote: Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.
You'd wonder why people don't start fitting tanks, then.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Nevil Oscillator
186
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 23:26:49 -
[1013] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.
I've never lost a ship in high sec to PVP against someone I am not at war with so I'm not sure if I can agree.
Someone showed me a kill mail of their industrial carrying 400mil of goods. And I laughed heartily because it was paranoid Llyod on the kill mail (Apologies for spelling Lloyd correctly)
T1 industrial with 400m cargo through Deltolle ...,, Just No , don't even think of undocking a T1 industrial with 400m of anything.
You don't use a 1 mil ship for that. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13112
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 23:31:29 -
[1014] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
You don't use a 1 mil ship for that.
The funny part is that they think should be able to make such a bad decision without consequence.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Nevil Oscillator
186
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 23:36:02 -
[1015] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The funny part is that they think should be able to make such a bad decision without consequence.
The only part I sympathise with is the fact the concept of a suicide attack is not very logical compared to other areas of the game. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13113
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 23:41:03 -
[1016] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The funny part is that they think should be able to make such a bad decision without consequence.
The only part I sympathise with is the fact the concept of a suicide attack is not very logical compared to other areas of the game. Something about the certainty of Concord is slightly wrong but that doesn't mean it should be easier.
Personally, I'd be all for Concord being tankable, but with escalating damage over time. Concord is too binary right now, which is just a heavy handed, outdated mechanic that has no excuse for it's continued existence.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25107
|
Posted - 2015.05.24 23:58:29 -
[1017] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Can't tell if serious.
Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.
Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!).
These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked.
Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in).
Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.
8.000 dead, 18,000 injured, 130k homes destroyed. PLEX for Good: Nepal Earthquake Relief. USD $15 donated for each PLEX you donate. Loose ISK can be sent to Chribba
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
372
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 00:39:45 -
[1018] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Can't tell if serious.
Even after a series of well deserved nerfs, highsec PvP is INSANELY easy. And once you start bringing alts and multiboxing into the equation, it becomes less challenging than a good bit of PvE content. Untanked industrials and barges continue to litter killboards, and one of C&P's better known miscreants has inflicted billions of ISK in damage on at least a dozen highsec badcorps in the past month alone.
Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!). These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked. Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in). Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.
How can I freely engage them with no repercussions when they're always docked up waiting out timers? I've got better things to do than camping out in a system for hours scouting belts, trying to guess which unranked retriever will be targeted next, just so I can possibly kill a 10M ISK destroyer and empty pod before his target pops.
It's like you think I don't understand how ganking works, or that it's done on dedicated alts with empty pods in ships whose loss is already a given.
There's always going to be easy targets in highsec, whether they be new, casuals, slow learners or just plain dumb. Why are you so attached to farming kills off that crowd endlessly?
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13115
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 00:43:22 -
[1019] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How can I freely engage them with no repercussions when they're always docked up waiting out timers?
Whose fault is that? It's not ours. The fault belongs to the carebears, and the punitive mechanics you have demanded over the years.
The way we behave is how the mechanics allow us to behave, while preserving our playstyles at all. You can't fault us for merely existing, although I know that's your intent anyway.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 01:47:37 -
[1020] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Not sure if you're serious. Hisec PVP is an environment where there are predators who themselves are not prey to other predators (for the most part). The option to gank gankers has always been open, and with -5 sec status and below any pilot can freely engage a ganker with no repercussions (except retaliation by an elite PVPer!).
These predators are hunting prey who do not scout their gates, tank their ships, or follow any one of the hundreds of writeups and forum posts you can find to avoid getting ganked.
Do you know why a ganker does not tank his ship against aggression from another player? Because the player base has shown itself to be too timid to proactively aggress the ganker (instead of waiting for GCC to kick in).
Player vs. player is "insanely easy" because other players have created this situation. It has nothing to do with the rules as they exist.
This has the blind assumption that high sec ganking is hard..
I've killed a Orca, Mackinaw, and a pod with an untanked Caracal before.
All at the same time.
There is very little skill required to pull off a high sec gank, especially during a war dec.
The vast majority of war decs and ganks are specifically towards players you know you can defeat.
And if they don't log in the whole time, you're still winning.
It doesn't matter how much tank you fit on an exhumer, if you want them dead, they will die.
Same goes for a PVE boat. You know that their capability to fight back in PVP is non-existent, because doing so means they can't perform in PVE.
You're there in high specifically because the kills are easy.
If you wanted a challenge, you'd go to low/null.
Let's say you logged on tomorrow and all the carebears suddenly started fighting back, to great effect.
You would likely unsub long before you considered accepting the challenge.
Face it, you want your easy kills because it makes you feel powerful.
If CCP were to take that false power from you, your only means of enjoyment would be gone.
Though, you sit here and preach that carebears should start defending themselves better.
We both know you're going to bail out at the first signs of trouble.
If that's all you ever see, you'll quit long before you'll accept the challenge. |
|
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13115
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 01:58:21 -
[1021] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
This has the blind assumption that high sec ganking is hard..
I've killed a Orca, Mackinaw, and a pod with an untanked Caracal before.
All at the same time.
I see we're into the "lying" phase.
I'm not even going to play around and ask how, I'm simply going to tell you that you did not successfully suicide gank those ships with a Caracal, that you're a liar, and that you should probably just drop out of this thread now.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 02:14:37 -
[1022] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
This has the blind assumption that high sec ganking is hard..
I've killed a Orca, Mackinaw, and a pod with an untanked Caracal before.
All at the same time.
I see we're into the "lying" phase. I'm not even going to play around and ask how, I'm simply going to tell you that you did not successfully suicide gank those ships with a Caracal, that you're a liar, and that you should probably just drop out of this thread now.
I didn't say I suicide ganked, now did I? |
Nevil Oscillator
186
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 02:30:55 -
[1023] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I didn't say I suicide ganked, now did I?
No you simply added wardecs to the equation which is an entirely different thing.
There is no high sec mechanic for wardecs, if you are war deced it is no longer high sec for those involved.
Suicide ganking needs to exist because otherwise there would be no sensible amount of protection based on the said cargo to make you a less viable target.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13115
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 03:00:23 -
[1024] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
This has the blind assumption that high sec ganking is hard..
I've killed a Orca, Mackinaw, and a pod with an untanked Caracal before.
All at the same time.
I see we're into the "lying" phase. I'm not even going to play around and ask how, I'm simply going to tell you that you did not successfully suicide gank those ships with a Caracal, that you're a liar, and that you should probably just drop out of this thread now. I didn't say I suicide ganked, now did I?
You did say "ganked", yeah. Killing someone in a wardec is not ganking.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37542
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 05:49:30 -
[1025] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:It doesn't matter how much tank you fit on an exhumer, if you want them dead, they will die.
Same goes for a PVE boat. You know that their capability to fight back in PVP is non-existent, because doing so means they can't perform in PVE.
Why can't they perform in PvE if they fit capable of fighting back?
My own experience seems at odds with that. I do all of my PvE in null in anomaly combat sites and DED sites. It's all done in pvp fit ships in case someone comes along (which is always enjoyable).
Being in a pvp fit ship doesn't cause any problems, even running the sites solo.
Aside from that, in terms of highsec pvp, it's not the fault of the ganker/wardeccer that people choose not to defend themselves. Those are choices the targets make and they suffer the consequences of doing so. Every single person in highsec could make things more difficult for aggressors just by deciding to defend themselves. But they don't and they are the only ones responsible for how easy it is to kill them.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 05:59:47 -
[1026] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aside from that, in terms of highsec pvp, it's not the fault of the ganker/wardeccer that people choose not to defend themselves. Those are choices the targets make and they suffer the consequences of doing so. Every single person in highsec could make things more difficult for aggressors just by deciding to defend themselves. But they don't and they are the only ones responsible for how easy it is to kill them.
Agreed..
That said, the majority of the discussion here, as of late, has been talk of making life more difficult for high sec players by forcing them out of NPC corps, and also adding mechanics to make it easier to take out a carebear corp.
My point here was that, if they want them to die, they can kill them. So why make it easier for them to kill them?
The other point was, if carebears did start fighting back, all these people complaining of making life harder for carebears would likely quit, as there life would get harder. They don't want food that fights back; otherwise, they'd be out in low/null/wh space.
Just because they want easy kills doesn't mean we should make it even easier. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25111
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 06:03:26 -
[1027] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
How can I freely engage them with no repercussions when they're always docked up waiting out timers? I've got better things to do than camping out in a system for hours scouting belts, trying to guess which unranked retriever will be targeted next, just so I can possibly kill a 10M ISK destroyer and empty pod before his target pops.
It's like you think I don't understand how ganking works, or that it's done on dedicated alts with empty pods in ships whose loss is already a given.
You are describing stuff you can't be bothered to do, because :effort:. Do you know who do spend hours doing this? Gate campers. Freighter gankers scanning ship after ship after ship on gates. People who hunt explorers. Doing a bunch of boring stuff for the 5-10 seconds of intense activity describes 95% of EVE. This is how the game is designed. Everything requires planning and a meticulous amount of research and patience for it to pay off.
You can't be bothered to do that? Then I don't think you have any right to complain about it.
When you pop a ganker's ship, you're not blowing up a 10M ISK cheap fitted destroyer, you are saving millions and billions of ISK or ore of a potential target. The way you visualize value is completely backwards, and it's no surprise you see no point in suiciding the suicide ganker.
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:There's always going to be easy targets in highsec, whether they be new, casuals, slow learners or just plain dumb. Why are you so attached to farming kills off that crowd endlessly?
Joe Risalo wrote:
You're there in high specifically because the kills are easy.
If you wanted a challenge, you'd go to low/null.
Let's say you logged on tomorrow and all the carebears suddenly started fighting back, to great effect.
You would likely unsub long before you considered accepting the challenge.
The point of war is to fight asymmetric battles. You fight your enemy where they are outnumbered, weak, and easy to kill. EVE allows the basic tenets of warfare to be played out. You're complaining about humans stacking the deck for a favorable outcome.
Unlike low and null, asymmetric warfare is easy to counter in hisec. There are no bubbles, no free-for-all engagement rules, and a constantly-updated and fresh Local list.
And Joe, I don't back out of any challenge. Feel free to test that out. To me, every scar is a victory.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37544
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 06:07:28 -
[1028] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:The other point was, if carebears did start fighting back, all these people complaining of making life harder for carebears would likely quit, as there life would get harder. They don't want food that fights back; otherwise, they'd be out in low/null/wh space.
Just because they want easy kills doesn't mean we should make it even easier.
I doubt it. When I look at ALOD loss mails and occasionally look at the results of ganks on kill boards, there's a lot of lowsec and nullsec pvpers that day trip to highsec to gank.
Overwhelmingly when those people post on the forum (eg. Miniluv) the message is they do it because it's fun and for profit, not because it's easy.
I suspect that if people began fighting back, it wouldn't drive them from the game. They'd either get more fun from it, or just give up the day tripping and carry on with their other activities.
I have a strong suspicion though that if people did begin to fight back, their level of enjoyment would increase too, especially when they become successful at it.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25111
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 06:10:35 -
[1029] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Let's say you logged on tomorrow and all the carebears suddenly started fighting back, to great effect.
You would likely unsub long before you considered accepting the challenge.
Joe, I'll post a quote from reddit which is a better retort than mine to your statement.
Quote:Mud wrestling with pigs don't work, because the pig love it.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
760
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 06:23:31 -
[1030] - Quote
I just found a comment from a CSM that I find pertinent to this conversation.
I'll highlight the most important part.
Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist. |
|
|
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
953
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 09:58:33 -
[1031] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I just found a comment from a CSM that I find pertinent to this conversation. I'll highlight the most important part. Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist.
Maybe this CSM should read the official new pilot faq. Section 7. First sentence on p.22.
"The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment."
Remove insurance.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37548
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 11:01:38 -
[1032] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I just found a comment from a CSM that I find pertinent to this conversation. I'll highlight the most important part. Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist.
Unfortunately being on the CSM doesn't mean you have a clue.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13120
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 12:26:48 -
[1033] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I just found a comment from a CSM that I find pertinent to this conversation. I'll highlight the most important part. Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist. Maybe this CSM should read the official new pilot faq. Section 7. First sentence on p.22. "The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment."
This. His opinion, CSM or otherwise, does not matter compared to CCP's word on the matter.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
133
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 12:54:42 -
[1034] - Quote
We have a new Joe, eh?
Awesome. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
761
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 13:04:48 -
[1035] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I just found a comment from a CSM that I find pertinent to this conversation. I'll highlight the most important part. Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist. Maybe this CSM should read the official new pilot faq. Section 7. First sentence on p.22. "The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment."
You have to consider that quote in context.
The comment by CCP does both mean that everyone shoots everyone all the time.
It means that no matter what you do in Eve, you're competing against others; be it on the market, in the belt/plex, or direct ship to ship combat.
Nice try though. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13121
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 13:09:56 -
[1036] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
You have to consider that quote in context.
What context is needed? You claimed you were correct about your nonsense by quoting a CSM who outright says "EVE is not a PvP game".
Meanwhile, CCP says "EVE is a PvP game". Directly contradicting Jayne and you.
Are you kidding me with this smokescreen bullshit?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
1152
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 16:39:56 -
[1037] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
because people suck
YouTube
|
Nevil Oscillator
187
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 20:49:48 -
[1038] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CSM who outright says "EVE is not a PvP game".
Meanwhile, CCP says "EVE is a PvP game".
You would think at least one of them would manage not to be wrong. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 21:31:28 -
[1039] - Quote
Mara Pardi wrote:Jayne Fillion wrote:Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Maybe this CSM should read the official new pilot faq. Section 7. First sentence on p.22. "The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment."
Maybe YOU should log in and play the game, then what the CSM member said might make a lot more sense.
EVE is not JUST a PVP game. There is no such thing as JUST a PVP game. PVP takes place within an environment (PVE), in the context of one's own abilities and the abilities of others (PVS).
Sumo wrestling is JUST a PVP game. Boxing is JUST a PVP game. Chess is JUST a PVP game. And, yet, the rules of sumo are that you lose if you leave the ENVIRONMENT (the ring) or touch part of the ENVIRONMENT (the ground) with something other than your feet, same with boxing. In chess, your pieces are differentiated by how they interact with the ENVIRONMENT (squares of the board). Even just the rule set governing play could be considered a part of the environment.
If YOUR core concept of EVE is that you must attack others all the time, should it be any wonder that some others don't want to play with you or subject themselves to mechanics that make them more vulnerable to such attacks? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37555
|
Posted - 2015.05.25 21:42:43 -
[1040] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Mara Pardi wrote:Jayne Fillion wrote:Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Maybe this CSM should read the official new pilot faq. Section 7. First sentence on p.22. "The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment." Maybe YOU should log in and play the game, then what the CSM member said might make a lot more sense. EVE is not JUST a PVP game. There is no such thing as JUST a PVP game. PVP takes place within an environment (PVE), in the context of one's own abilities and the abilities of others (PVS). Sumo wrestling is JUST a PVP game. Boxing is JUST a PVP game. Chess is JUST a PVP game. And, yet, the rules of sumo are that you lose if you leave the ENVIRONMENT (the ring) or touch part of the ENVIRONMENT (the ground) with something other than your feet, same with boxing. In chess, your pieces are differentiated by how they interact with the ENVIRONMENT (squares of the board). Even just the rule set governing play could be considered a part of the environment. If YOUR core concept of EVE is that you must attack others all the time, should it be any wonder that some others don't want to play with you or subject themselves to mechanics that make them more vulnerable to such attacks?
Maybe you should re read what the CSM member said.
He didn't say, just a pvp game, he said it's not a pvp game.
He was wrong and directly countered by CCPs own view on what eve is.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13127
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Posted - 2015.05.25 23:04:01 -
[1041] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
If YOUR core concept of EVE is that you must attack others all the time, should it be any wonder that some others don't want to play with you or subject themselves to mechanics that make them more vulnerable to such attacks?
Why do you insist on playing the wrong game? Why do you so constantly demand that your delusions be made reality, instead of playing a game that is actually what you say you want?
In all seriousness, to hell with what you want. What you want is pure fascism, to dictate to others how they should be allowed to play, claiming that your playstyle demands the handcuffing of the freedom of others. You sicken me.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jvpiter
Jovelike
3621
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Posted - 2015.05.25 23:06:36 -
[1042] - Quote
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:We have a new Joe, eh?
Awesome.
There can be only one.
Call me Joe.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 00:48:20 -
[1043] - Quote
Maybe I SHOULD read what the CSM member said:
Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist.
Is that what we are referring to?
Scipio Artellius wrote:the essential core concept of the game . . . pvp is not only about guns but many other activities in which one player affects another (eg. Market trading, scamming, running anomalies before someone else, etc.). It's all pvp related.
Affecting other players is not JUST destroying other players (or their arguments). Even player-versus-player scenarios do not necessarily result in any destruction at all. I think the misunderstanding is in the use of the term "PVP". Does it mean person-affecting-person or does it mean person-destroying-person?
In the same FAQ document that was quoted, CCP writes:
Quote:
"As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can
engage another player at any time in any place."
"In low-sec and null-sec, there are no limitations to PvP at all."
"The choice, as with all things in EVE, is yours."
"there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided."
"In high-sec systems, you are less likely to be attacked"
If we want to delve deeply to divine the intentions of EVE's creators, we could take statements like these as their unerring word, but they're only human beings (mostly (I think)), and we're only human beings, and this is only human language. Why should we expect them to perfectly say what they mean and why should we expect to understand them perfectly? That would be an unreasonable expectation.
Alternatively, we could sit here and shoot holes in these statements. (There is a window of invulnerability when undocking when a ship, in space, cannot be engaged. Of course there are limitations to PVP, even in low and null sec. Choice in EVE takes place within the context of other people who also have choices, which affect us and our ability to make choices. You can sit in a station or cloaked in a safe spot to avoid PVP . . . completely. Jita, high security space, is one of the most violent systems in the game.) But, WTF would the point of that be, either?
And, after all of that, what if they change their mind? What if they change their personnel? What if they get bought out by Blizzard and EVE gets turned into Space WoW?
Let me ask a non-rhetorical question: If you want to do "bad" and I want to do "good", and you have an unrestricted ability to do "bad", why should my ability to do "good" be restricted? |
Yuri Ostrovsky
Snake River Jump Squad
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 00:55:57 -
[1044] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Maybe I SHOULD read what the CSM member said: Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist. Is that what we are referring to? Scipio Artellius wrote:the essential core concept of the game . . . pvp is not only about guns but many other activities in which one player affects another (eg. Market trading, scamming, running anomalies before someone else, etc.). It's all pvp related. Affecting other players is not JUST destroying other players (or their arguments). Even player-versus-player scenarios do not necessarily result in any destruction at all. I think the misunderstanding is in the use of the term "PVP". Does it mean person-affecting-person or does it mean person-destroying-person? In the same FAQ document that was quoted, CCP writes: Quote:
"As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can
engage another player at any time in any place."
"In low-sec and null-sec, there are no limitations to PvP at all."
"The choice, as with all things in EVE, is yours."
"there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided."
"In high-sec systems, you are less likely to be attacked"
If we want to delve deeply to divine the intentions of EVE's creators, we could take statements like these as their unerring word, but they're only human beings (mostly (I think)), and we're only human beings, and this is only human language. Why should we expect them to perfectly say what they mean and why should we expect to understand them perfectly? That would be an unreasonable expectation. Alternatively, we could sit here and shoot holes in these statements. (There is a window of invulnerability when undocking when a ship, in space, cannot be engaged. Of course there are limitations to PVP, even in low and null sec. Choice in EVE takes place within the context of other people who also have choices, which affect us and our ability to make choices. You can sit in a station or cloaked in a safe spot to avoid PVP . . . completely. Jita, high security space, is one of the most violent systems in the game.) But, WTF would the point of that be, either? And, after all of that, what if they change their mind? What if they change their personnel? What if they get bought out by Blizzard and EVE gets turned into Space WoW? Let me ask a non-rhetorical question: If you want to do "bad" and I want to do "good", and you have an unrestricted ability to do "bad", why should my ability to do "good" be restricted?
Because that would tarnish their egos. Some people are so high and mighty, that playing the game in any other way than their own, is unspeakable. Also, people, if it weren't for npc corps, or highsec, you wouldn't have any ships or parts to fit. Yall seem to keep forgetting that. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37559
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 01:31:09 -
[1045] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Maybe I SHOULD read what the CSM member said: Jayne Fillon wrote:I also think that wardecs are the cancer of Eve, so that's entirely unsurprising. Even if these social groups were being designed with the sole intention of allowing carebears to evade wardecs, you'd still be extremely hard pressed to convince me that it was a bad idea. Eve is not a PvP game, but a Sandbox game with PvP aspects. Community is another aspect within the Sandbox, and your misguided attempts to restrict positive player interaction will be the death of this game.
Hopefully the only game that dies is the perverted version of Eve that you're convinced should exist. Is that what we are referring to?
You made the original quote, so it should be fairly clear what was being referred to and it was wrong.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Scipio Artellius wrote:the essential core concept of the game . . . pvp is not only about guns but many other activities in which one player affects another (eg. Market trading, scamming, running anomalies before someone else, etc.). It's all pvp related. Affecting other players is not JUST destroying other players (or their arguments). Even player-versus-player scenarios do not necessarily result in any destruction at all. I think the misunderstanding is in the use of the term "PVP". Does it mean person-affecting-person or does it mean person-destroying-person?
No one is claiming pvp is only just about destruction.
PVP is player versus player. Full stop. There is no limitation on the activities that can be involved in that. It's not about destruction, it's about a player competing against another player in whatever form.
Market trading is a perfect example where there is no destruction, but a different distribution of wealth and market pvp can be quite intense when two serious traders are online at the same time.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13129
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 01:39:33 -
[1046] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovsky wrote:Also, people, if it weren't for npc corps, or highsec, you wouldn't have any ships or parts to fit. Yall seem to keep forgetting that.
I suppose it still hasn't occurred to you that some of the most prolific and seasoned industrialists in all of the game are CODE members, has it?
You greatly overestimate your importance to the game. As for Heehaw over there, he's rambling on about how affecting other players isn't just combat, but blithely ignoring the fact that, even if he's not shooting at other people, he is having an effect on their gameplay, an effect to which they should have the recourse of killing him.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37559
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 01:43:49 -
[1047] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovsky wrote:Because that would tarnish their egos. Some people are so high and mighty, that playing the game in any other way than their own, is unspeakable.
Put your money where your mouth is and quote anyone that has that view.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Yuri Ostrovsky
Snake River Jump Squad
0
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 01:46:51 -
[1048] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovsky wrote:Also, people, if it weren't for npc corps, or highsec, you wouldn't have any ships or parts to fit. Yall seem to keep forgetting that. I suppose it still hasn't occurred to you that some of the most prolific and seasoned industrialists in all of the game are CODE members, has it? You greatly overestimate your importance to the game. As for Heehaw over there, he's rambling on about how affecting other players isn't just combat, but blithely ignoring the fact that, even if he's not shooting at other people, he is having an effect on their gameplay, an effect to which they should have the recourse of killing him.
See I haven't been playing long enough for Code to mean a damned thing to me, sorry toots.
And you can easily infer that ego problem fella. Just look at any Solecist post. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13130
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 01:54:57 -
[1049] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovsky wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovsky wrote:Also, people, if it weren't for npc corps, or highsec, you wouldn't have any ships or parts to fit. Yall seem to keep forgetting that. I suppose it still hasn't occurred to you that some of the most prolific and seasoned industrialists in all of the game are CODE members, has it? You greatly overestimate your importance to the game. As for Heehaw over there, he's rambling on about how affecting other players isn't just combat, but blithely ignoring the fact that, even if he's not shooting at other people, he is having an effect on their gameplay, an effect to which they should have the recourse of killing him. See I haven't been playing long enough for Code to mean a damned thing to me, sorry toots. And you can easily infer that ego problem fella. Just look at any Solecist post.
That whoosh? That was the sound of the point going over your head.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovsky
Snake River Jump Squad
0
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Posted - 2015.05.26 01:58:27 -
[1050] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovsky wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovsky wrote:Also, people, if it weren't for npc corps, or highsec, you wouldn't have any ships or parts to fit. Yall seem to keep forgetting that. I suppose it still hasn't occurred to you that some of the most prolific and seasoned industrialists in all of the game are CODE members, has it? You greatly overestimate your importance to the game. As for Heehaw over there, he's rambling on about how affecting other players isn't just combat, but blithely ignoring the fact that, even if he's not shooting at other people, he is having an effect on their gameplay, an effect to which they should have the recourse of killing him. See I haven't been playing long enough for Code to mean a damned thing to me, sorry toots. And you can easily infer that ego problem fella. Just look at any Solecist post. That whoosh? That was the sound of the point going over your head.
Better add a second whoosh :p
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
762
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 02:14:50 -
[1051] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
In all seriousness, to hell with what you want. What you want is pure fascism, to dictate to others how they should be allowed to play, claiming that your playstyle demands the handcuffing of the freedom of others. You sicken me.
This literally what you have been going on about since you started in this thread.
You want NPC corps dead and carebears corps dead.
You want only corps that are willing to fight all the time.
You despise PVE and want it done away with.
So, troll me more on how My way is wrong and your way should be THE way... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13133
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 03:04:29 -
[1052] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
You want NPC corps dead and carebears corps dead.
I want NPC corps to be something besides the obviously superior option. Apparently that means "dead" to the people who cling to that golden goose.
As for "carebear" corps, I would rather they be transformed into more all rounder corps, not so skewed in one direction. More variety = more options = more fun.
Quote:
You want only corps that are willing to fight all the time.
That is the mandate of being in a player corp, yes. Go read the last war dev blog.
In exchange for the increased risk of being in a player corp, your rewards should be commensurately higher, that's why I want NPC corps nerfed. That whole risk vs reward thing.
Quote:
You despise PVE and want it done away with.
Again, wrong. I simply want PvE to not be given credence as anything more than what it is; the sad necessity that the game requires for use as income generation. I do not want it done away with, but there is zero reason to waste time and money making "new" missions, since the playerbase has shown itself capable of math hammering out the solution to CCP's innovations in a matter of days, when it took CCP months to build it in the first place. That is definitively a waste of time.
But I do despise PvE, yes. It is banality incarnate, I would rather play Angry Birds with my thumbs broken than shoot red crosses for more than about forty minutes. I once actually fell asleep in a mission pocket, and my Paladin was still alive when I woke up. >.<
Quote:
So, troll me more on how My way is wrong and your way should be THE way...
I don't think any of those things. I am, however, tired of having my playstyle take a backseat to yours, incessantly nerfed time and again merely because your side has cried louder in the past decade. So now I advocate for my cause, because if I don't, it's rather likely that you and yours will whine it out of existence.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 03:22:36 -
[1053] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Why do you insist on playing the [game wrong]?
For the record, what IS your playstyle? Would you be so kind as to describe it to us, define it for us, so we can understand the nature of your claim that it has been nerfed repeatedly? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
762
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 03:22:51 -
[1054] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I don't think any of those things. I am, however, tired of having my playstyle take a backseat to yours, incessantly nerfed time and again merely because your side has cried louder in the past decade. So now I advocate for my cause, because if I don't, it's rather likely that you and yours will whine it out of existence.
The only thing you can claim as your play style that has been needed is high sec ganks, awoxing, and to a lesser degree war decs.
I'm wondering if this is CCP's risks be reward?
Trying to force players into low/null/WH space for PVP by making it more challenging in high sec?
I mean, PVP combat is the most imbalanced RvW aspect of Eve.
Why go to low to get kills when you can bump and gank a freighter for a loot dump?
You make all the claims of RvW but refuse to see how the rewards for PVP in high sec are significantly greater than in low.
See, this entire thread has been about trying to take away my play style and force more of what you want on to me.
I have news for you, if you get the f out of high sec, you might just find what you're looking for. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37560
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 04:44:35 -
[1055] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I mean, PVP combat is the most imbalanced RvW aspect of Eve.
Why go to low to get kills when you can bump and gank a freighter for a loot dump?
You make all the claims of RvW but refuse to see how the rewards for PVP in high sec are significantly greater than in low.
From a mechanics perspective, the chance of loot dropping in lowsec is no different to the chance of it dropping in highsec or in nullsec. The chance of reward given a specific ship is exactly the same.
What differs are the consequences of pvp in each space:
Null: no consequences
Low: potential sec status hit, gcc and sentry guns (non-wardec or duel)
High: 100% chance of ship loss, sec status hit, gcc and sentry guns (non-wardec or duel)
If anything, the consequences of conducting pvp in highsec are more significant than in low or null and the level of overall risk is only different because CCP can't design stupid out of the game. Players bring that on their own.
But a freighter loss in highsec is no more or less rewarding than it would be in lowsec or nullsec.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
762
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 05:27:51 -
[1056] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I mean, PVP combat is the most imbalanced RvW aspect of Eve.
Why go to low to get kills when you can bump and gank a freighter for a loot dump?
You make all the claims of RvW but refuse to see how the rewards for PVP in high sec are significantly greater than in low. From a mechanics perspective, the chance of loot dropping in lowsec is no different to the chance of it dropping in highsec or in nullsec. The chance of reward given a specific ship is exactly the same. What differs are the consequences of pvp in each space: Null: no consequences Low: potential sec status hit, gcc and sentry guns (non-wardec or duel) High: 100% chance of ship loss, sec status hit, gcc and sentry guns (non-wardec or duel) If anything, the consequences of conducting pvp in highsec are more significant than in low or null and the level of overall risk is only different because CCP can't design stupid out of the game. Players bring that on their own. But a freighter loss in highsec is no more or less rewarding than it would be in lowsec or nullsec.
In high sec, all you need is a cargo scanner and you'll know if ganking a freighter is worth it.
Whether based off cost efficiency, or based off potential drop.
I don't think any gank fleet would pass up a freighter filled with 2 bil in loot, let alone more.
In low, it's all about the kills. The potential for loot drop is a non-factor and people often ignore or destroy wrecks before they take the risk of looting them.
the risks in high sec are well worth the potential reward.
In low, you're not going to see a freighter, let alone one with massive loot potential.
So yeah, I would say the benefit outweighs the risks in high sec.
Not to mention, you can wardec an easy target and not have to worry about another roam catching up with you. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37565
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 06:12:23 -
[1057] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:In high sec, all you need is a cargo scanner and you'll know if ganking a freighter is worth it.
Whether based off cost efficiency, or based off potential drop.
I don't think any gank fleet would pass up a freighter filled with 2 bil in loot, let alone more.
Nor would that be passed up in lowsec or nullsec. No need for a cargo scanner either. Just kill it.
Quote:...people often ignore or destroy wrecks before they take the risk of looting them.
This is not even true in FW systems where NBSI is the norm, let alone non-FW systems where there is always time to loot the field. Looting wrecks is just as much part of lowsec pvp as it is in null and highsec.
Quote:the risks in high sec are well worth the potential reward.
Sure, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics. The chance of reward in highsec is no different to the chance of reward for the same kill anywhere else. It's the stupidity/mistakes/bad judgement of players that present loot pinatas in highsec. That's just less common in low and null in terms of freighters, but that's not because the rewards of high are imbalanced through the game.
Quote:Not to mention, you can wardec an easy target and not have to worry about another roam catching up with you.
Still the same. There is nothing about the game that makes this more imbalanced in highsec compared to lowsec. Anyone is free to fight back against a wardec if they want. The game doesn't change the balance at all. The players do.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
762
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 06:24:07 -
[1058] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:In high sec, all you need is a cargo scanner and you'll know if ganking a freighter is worth it.
Whether based off cost efficiency, or based off potential drop.
I don't think any gank fleet would pass up a freighter filled with 2 bil in loot, let alone more. Nor would that be passed up in lowsec or nullsec. No need for a cargo scanner to see if it will be worth it either. That's only necessary in highsec because of the consequences of ganking. In low and null, just kill it. Quote:...people often ignore or destroy wrecks before they take the risk of looting them. This is not even true in FW systems where NBSI is the norm, let alone non-FW systems where there is always time to loot the field. Looting wrecks is just as much part of lowsec pvp as it is in null and highsec. Quote:the risks in high sec are well worth the potential reward. Sure, but that has nothing to do with the mechanics. The chance of reward in highsec is no different to the chance of reward for the same kill anywhere else. It's the stupidity/mistakes/bad judgement of players that present loot pinatas in highsec. That's just less common in low and null in terms of freighters, but that's not because the rewards of high are imbalanced through the game. Quote:Not to mention, you can wardec an easy target and not have to worry about another roam catching up with you. Still the same. There is nothing about the game that makes this more imbalanced in highsec compared to lowsec. Anyone is free to fight back against a wardec if they want. The game doesn't change the balance at all. The players do. And while we are way off topic with all of this, it isn't the first time in this thread; but we should probably look to head back to the topic at some point.
All good points.
Now, explain to me why these people that do all the ganks and war decs aren't in low sec?
Too much of a challenge perhaps? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37566
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 06:35:17 -
[1059] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:All good points.
Now, explain to me why these people that do all the ganks and war decs aren't in low sec?
Too much of a challenge perhaps?
This is purely speculation because you'd have to ask them for their own reasons, but it seems commonly to boil down to:
1. Code: play the game rather than bot the game
2. No part of space is meant to be safe and highsec is as valid an area for pvp as anywhere else
3. Hired mercs, paid to pvp
4. Higher population so no need to hunt for targets. They present themselves
5. Roleplay
6. PVP can be profitable
I guess it's the last point that hints towards highsec pvp being more rewarding, but only because of point 4 and players treating highsec as a safe haven when it isn't.
There are probably other reasons and in all likelihood, many people choose it because they can manage their risk better than they can in low and null. For other people, they can manage their risk easier in low or null, but the overall risk can be about the same (eg. F1 monkeys in fleets are often facing no greater risk than highsec pvpers and possibly less in many situations).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1045
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 11:20:34 -
[1060] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:All good points.
Now, explain to me why these people that do all the ganks and war decs aren't in low sec?
Too much of a challenge perhaps? This is purely speculation because you'd have to ask them for their own reasons, but it seems commonly to boil down to...
You are right that there are many reasons people engage in predatory wardecs and ganking in highsec, but I am still amazed people pull the eBushido card of "lowsec/nullsec is too hard for you" so regularly. Criminals and pirates are going to follow the prey and for better or for worse most of that prey lives and operates in highsec. These ne'er-do-wells are not looking for a fair fight (nor is pretty much anyone anywhere in New Eden), so I don't know why people act all surprised that wardeccers and gankers hunt prey in highsec.
Couple that with the propensity of highsec dwellers to fly blinged out ships and overload their haulers that they don't bother defending and you have the ideal hunting grounds full of many fat targets for a player looking for profit or juicy kills.
Back to the topic of the thread, the problem with NPC corps is not that they exist and provide safety to risk-averse players, it is that they are overly lucrative. You should be able to stay in a un-wardeccable NPC corp for your entire Eve career if you want. However, that should not be the optimal way to make an income in the sandbox as it is in many cases today. Allowing NPC corps to shield players from conflict in a PvP-centric game which has a complex economy built upon continual destruction is just weak game design.
My prescription? Have the tax creep up over time (a bit) and eliminate the holes that allow players to have the benefits of a player corp without any of the responsibilities. Add income benefits to being in a player corp, but ones that depend on structures in space that have to be defended. Also, make them such that they increase over time with the continued life and combined effort of a corporation (like sov indexes) so that rolling a corp is much less attractive. Players might then form larger, balanced PvE/PvP corps and actually defend them from aggressors instead of taking the path of least resistance and folding or jumping to another corp.
The new, casual and risk-averse can still mine some rocks and mission with friends without fear of a wardec. But competitive players will be incentivized to use these structures and mount a defense of them if they want to compete with the other producers and get their share of the Eve economy. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13139
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 11:33:05 -
[1061] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
For the record, what IS your playstyle?
Back when they still had the playstyle survey, it was called "Pirate". You might have heard of it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13139
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 11:39:13 -
[1062] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I mean, PVP combat is the most imbalanced RvW aspect of Eve.
Risk vs reward barely touches on PvP combat, and even then it's only the loot fairy. Risk vs reward applies to activities that generate assets or isk into the game world from nothing, it applies primarily to PvE as a result.
In PvP, my risk is pretty much a direct function of the effort put in by the other player. My reward is pretty much a direction function of their stupidity and/or greed. In PvP, that particular metric is left up to the player.
Quote:
Why go to low to get kills when you can bump and gank a freighter for a loot dump?
Well, if I'm just out for money, faction warfare missions are still the most lucrative thing in the game. But I can say much the same thing about highsec, except actually use the risk vs reward metric correctly, since it is generating assets. Why would you go anywhere else, if you can make risk free cash like crazy in highsec incursions?
Quote:
You make all the claims of RvW but refuse to see how the rewards for PVP in high sec are significantly greater than in low.
And that's the fault of the mental deficients who stuff their freighters full of riches, by and large. That said, we gank every freighter now, even the empty ones, just to make a point to you people. And of course, you still never get it, so it continues.
Quote:
See, this entire thread has been about trying to take away my play style and force more of what you want on to me.
There is no playstyle called "I shouldn't have to defend myself".
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
131
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 12:02:01 -
[1063] - Quote
The integrity of Elite High Sec PVP must be preserved. Think of the valuable lessons learned by the young'uns. Or more importantly the hilarity of dudes that are the EVE equivalent of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roSwBPmlAbI |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
765
|
Posted - 2015.05.26 14:38:31 -
[1064] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
I mean, PVP combat is the most imbalanced RvW aspect of Eve.
Risk vs reward barely touches on PvP combat, and even then it's only the loot fairy. Risk vs reward applies to activities that generate assets or isk into the game world from nothing, it applies primarily to PvE as a result. In PvP, my risk is pretty much a direct function of the effort put in by the other player. My reward is pretty much a direction function of their stupidity and/or greed. In PvP, that particular metric is left up to the player. Quote:
Why go to low to get kills when you can bump and gank a freighter for a loot dump?
Well, if I'm just out for money, faction warfare missions are still the most lucrative thing in the game. But I can say much the same thing about highsec, except actually use the risk vs reward metric correctly, since it is generating assets. Why would you go anywhere else, if you can make risk free cash like crazy in highsec incursions? Quote:
You make all the claims of RvW but refuse to see how the rewards for PVP in high sec are significantly greater than in low.
And that's the fault of the mental deficients who stuff their freighters full of riches, by and large. That said, we gank every freighter now, even the empty ones, just to make a point to you people. And of course, you still never get it, so it continues. Quote:
See, this entire thread has been about trying to take away my play style and force more of what you want on to me.
There is no playstyle called "I shouldn't have to defend myself".
Again, this comment seems to agree that high sec PVP is plausible and working and balanced.
No need to change NPC corps, you can still kill those people.
Man, I'm loving this.
Keeps getting replies that suggest high sec is as intended.
Move along.
|
Nevil Oscillator
188
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 00:45:47 -
[1065] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Man, I'm loving this.
Keeps getting replies that suggest high sec is as intended.
Move along.
Eve has evolved, it is not something that was planned to be this way from the start so I have been told... but the fact remains that whatever you are doing that 'Should be Easier' or other people are doing that 'Isn't Fair' No one told you you have to do what you are doing.
Winge winge my freighter can get destroyed, why isn't it invincible? is not a very good argument for changing the game. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
769
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 02:21:27 -
[1066] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Man, I'm loving this.
Keeps getting replies that suggest high sec is as intended.
Move along.
Eve has evolved, it is not something that was planned to be this way from the start so I have been told... but the fact remains that whatever you are doing that 'Should be Easier' or other people are doing that 'Isn't Fair' No one told you you have to do what you are doing. Winge winge my freighter can get destroyed, why isn't it invincible? is not a very good argument for changing the game.
Agreed, but neither is
"I can already destroy this guy in his freighter, but I'd like to force him out of NPC corps, so I can war dec him, then destroy him, or make him quit from a perma dec." |
Nevil Oscillator
188
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 03:07:52 -
[1067] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Man, I'm loving this.
Keeps getting replies that suggest high sec is as intended.
Move along.
Eve has evolved, it is not something that was planned to be this way from the start so I have been told... but the fact remains that whatever you are doing that 'Should be Easier' or other people are doing that 'Isn't Fair' No one told you you have to do what you are doing. Winge winge my freighter can get destroyed, why isn't it invincible? is not a very good argument for changing the game. Agreed, but neither is "I can already destroy this guy in his freighter, but I'd like to force him out of NPC corps, so I can war dec him, then destroy him, or make him quit from a perma dec."
Lol Well why not allow them to wardec the NPC corp ? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37621
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 03:20:12 -
[1068] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Again, this comment seems to agree that high sec PVP is plausible and working and balanced.
No need to change NPC corps, you can still kill those people.
Man, I'm loving this.
Keeps getting replies that suggest high sec is as intended.
Move along.
This thread isn't about changing NPC Corps.
It's CCP who are trying to encourage more players to move to player-run Corps because they have identified that player-run Corps provide the environment where many of the experiences, that increase player retention, exist.
NPC Corps are fine. New players remaining in them is not bad and for some players it suits their playstyle. Unfortunately many new players also leave the game (90% within the first 30 days) because they don't find the experience that hooks them.
If CCP can change that trend then that's good not only for CCP and the future of the game, but for us as players also.
That was the whole basis for this thread in the first place. Asking, what keeps people in NPC Corps because the addition of the friendly-fire toggle is only one half of the issue (ie. trying to encourage player Corps to recruit more). The other half being trying to have players in NPC Corps look to move to player-run Corps.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1484
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 04:29:57 -
[1069] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Lol Well why not allow them to wardec the NPC corp ? Because if they do such corps become inherently worthless in every way compared to a one man corp most likely.
They could be replaced by chat channels while not grouping largely unaffiliated players up to defend from the incoming wars. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
771
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 04:57:27 -
[1070] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Again, this comment seems to agree that high sec PVP is plausible and working and balanced.
No need to change NPC corps, you can still kill those people.
Man, I'm loving this.
Keeps getting replies that suggest high sec is as intended.
Move along.
This thread isn't about changing NPC Corps. It's CCP who are trying to encourage more players to move to player-run Corps because they have identified that player-run Corps provide the environment where many of the experiences, that increase player retention, exist. NPC Corps are fine. New players remaining in them is not bad and for some players it suits their playstyle. Unfortunately many new players also leave the game (90% within the first 30 days) because they don't find the experience that hooks them. If CCP can change that trend then that's good not only for CCP and the future of the game, but for us as players also. That was the whole basis for this thread in the first place. Asking, what keeps people in NPC Corps because the addition of the friendly-fire toggle is only one half of the issue (ie. trying to encourage player Corps to recruit more). The other half being trying to have players in NPC Corps look to move to player-run Corps.
So, the issue then becomes, why are players not joining corps, as opposed to why are players staying in NPC corps.
See, 11% tax and boredom are enough of a reason to leave an NPC corp.
However, why don't players leave?
Awoxing is no longer a major concern, so that's not the problem.
War decs aren't all that big a deal, as they don't happen that often. so this makes up for, at most, 20% of the player in NPC.
I would also assume that, at most, newbros only make up about 10%.
Then you can factor the anti-socials and other mental traits makes up maybe 20%.
What about the other 50%?
These are the focus.
Determining which of these are high sec alts, which just aren't having luck with corps, hauler alts, etc. etc.
The problem I see is that, if you do something, such as increase taxes, you're only hurting the people in the upper 50%.
While high sec alts and especially hauler alts, would be unaffected because they're using a player corp alt or main to sell/manifacture goods.
So, you only punish those that shouldn't be punished. |
|
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 06:09:50 -
[1071] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:
CCP . . . are trying to encourage more players to move to player-run Corps because they have identified that player-run Corps provide the environment where many of the experiences, that increase player retention, exist.
Assuming this to be true (which is a HUGE assumpion), the alternative is for them to move the experiences to where the players actually play the game.
What you may not realize is that plenty of those experiences are already there in NPC corporations and that's probably the best answer to the question of why people stay in NPC corporations. It's the same reason that people stay in player corporations. The only "solution" to the "problem" would be to explicitly attempt to ruin the experience those NPC corporation players are having OR to enhance the experiences in players corps in some way and then communicate that potential to the NPC corp players.
There is a danger in ruining NPC corp players experiences, though. They may not view it as ruining their NPC corp experience. They may perceive it as ruining their EVE Online experience.
Alternatively buffing player corps may end up just leaving NPC corp players with the dilemma of having some greater benefit by leaving the NPC corp or having the experiences that kept them playing in the first place by staying put, but not both.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Lol Well why not allow them to wardec the NPC corp ? Because if they do such corps become inherently worthless in every way compared to a one man corp most likely. They could be replaced by chat channels while not grouping largely unaffiliated players up to defend from the incoming wars.
For my part, I couldn't care less if people could war dec the State War Academy. I might even prefer it that way.
I just don't want to live in a dictatorship, which most corporations are. I will not live in a dictatorship, not even if I get to be the dictator.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37622
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 06:39:56 -
[1072] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Assuming this to be true (which is a HUGE assumpion), the alternative is for them to move the experiences to where the players actually play the game.
It's not an assumption. CCP have analysed the data they collect and have identified the types of experiences that lead to higher retention among new players.
They haven't just made it up, they've let the data identify the reasons.
As to moving the experiences to where players are, that's up the to players. It's the player driven content that increases retention. If the players in the NPC Corps provided more of the experiences, then the retention would probably improve too, since CCP have identified it's the social experiences that are important, not necessarily where they are.
It just so happens that player-run Corps provide most of those experiences naturally, so CCP doesn't really need to do anything other than allow people to discover them easier; which they are trying to do.
But any vet in an NPC Corp is able to provide those experiences internally too. Most just don't.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37624
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 07:30:34 -
[1073] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:So, the issue then becomes, why are players not joining corps, as opposed to why are players staying in NPC corps.
They aren't even staying in NPC Corps.
90% of new players leave within the first 30 days.
They start in the starter Corp and then leave the game.
Anyone who subscribes and stays in an NPC Corp or who has alts in an NPC Corp, great for them. CCP aren't concerned about them.
From what CCP have said in multiple places now, they are trying to make adjustments to the game so that be players have a greater chance to experience something that absorbs them in the game and CCP have a good idea about the kinds of experiences that will do that. At the moment, they seem to be implementing a number of initiatives to get to where they want the retention to be:
1. Friendly-fire toggle: in part supposed to encourage Corps to recruit
2. Opportunities system totally different to old tutorials with potential for greater variation in experiences at the start
3. Trying to encourage new players to find the other social experiences that aren't provided in the starter corp or opportunities
#3 can happen anywhere. It just so happens that player-run Corps are the most likely place to find those experiences.
As to why players aren't joining player Corps, we'll look at the title of this thread. That's what this whole thing is about.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
247
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 07:33:33 -
[1074] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:
they've let the data identify the reasons . . . It just so happens that player-run Corps provide most of those [player driven, social] experiences
What reasons did the data identify, specifically, for players sticking with the game?
Which of those experiences do player-run corporations provide? Why those? Why not others? How could they be provided in NPC corporations? How could they be improved to advantage player-run corps?
Scipio Artellius wrote:
But any vet in an NPC Corp is able to provide those experiences internally too. Most just don't.
Why not?
I honestly just think you've had a little too much Kool-Aid. You are starting with the premise that player-corps are better than NPC corps, that player-corp players are better than NPC corp players (in some sense). What you don't seem to be accounting for is that every player starts out as an NPC corp player. The lines are blurred.
If I joined a player corp for a month after playing EVE as an NPC corp player for 6 months, then left the player corp (i.e. dropped back to an NPC corp) and quit the game, would I be an NPC corp player or a player corp player?
If I joined a player corp with my main, but played just as much on my NPC corp "alt", would I be a player-corp player or an NPC corp player?
If I was a player corp member with an alt in an NPC corp and I disrupted the functioning of the NPC corp with my alt (and potentially with my main), would that be a bad NPC corp experience for others or, since I was a player-corp player, would that be a bad player corp experience for them, even though they weren't in a player corp? |
Nevil Oscillator
188
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 07:50:11 -
[1075] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Lol Well why not allow them to wardec the NPC corp ? Because if they do such corps become inherently worthless in every way compared to a one man corp most likely. They could be replaced by chat channels while not grouping largely unaffiliated players up to defend from the incoming wars.
That's not entirely correct.. if you declare war on an NPC corp you are then a legal target for everyone in that NPC corp. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37624
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 08:10:45 -
[1076] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:What reasons did the data identify, specifically, for players sticking with the game?
Which of those experiences do player-run corporations provide? Why those? Why not others? How could they be provided in NPC corporations? How could they be improved to advantage player-run corps?
All the information that CCP has posted is available to go read. You can go and see the reasons just the same as the rest of us.
A lot of them have been reposted in this thread. One of mine listing some of the reasons is just a few pages back:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5765482#post5765482
As to why? I don't know. It's what the data has shown CCP and they've described it in terms of the level of social engagement.
As to how those things could have been provided in NPC Corps, well more players in NPC Corps could setup TeamSpeak or Mumble servers, run fleet operations both for pve and pvp, start Corp forums, contact new players and take them roaming, use the Corp chat channels more, etc., etc., etc. - all the things that many players in player-run Corp do normally.
There is nothing stopping an NPC Corp player from doing any of that. It's not an issue of NPC Corp v Player Corp. Just about where the experiences most commonly occur that lead to greater retention.
You could be a champion of NPC Corp play any time you want for example. You could at any point turn State War Academy into a Corp that operates very similar to player-run Corps. There wouldn't necessarily be a shared goal or aims to target, but aside from that, nothing is stopping you, or me, or anyone else. There is nothing inherently wrong with NPC Corps.
They just aren't providing those experiences currently and I suspect it's largely based around the lack of shared interests and goals. Players in NPC Corps do their own thing and those Corps tend to be more solo player oriented and/or for alts. The big issue is in the starter Corps, and I suspect it's more difficult there because there is a high percentage of new players who don't even know about those things, let alone how to implement them.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:I honestly just think you've had a little too much Kool-Aid. You are starting with the premise that player-corps are better than NPC corps, that player-corp players are better than NPC corp players (in some sense). What you don't seem to be accounting for is that every player starts out as an NPC corp player. The lines are blurred.
Nah. I've just been trying to help fill in some of those gaps because some people have come into the thread recently and weren't aware of the background over the last few months. This isn't my personal mission. It just restating the things that CCP have been saying.
I have nothing against NPC Corps. I use them too.
This is totally not about NPC Corps as such. I've said that as my understanding multiple times in this thread. Three recent ones being:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=403811&p=46
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=403811&p=43
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=403811&p=42
But I'll just drink some more Kool-Aid now and stop trying to help fill in gaps. You are free to stop being lazy and go look at what CCP has said yourself.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Nevil Oscillator
188
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 08:53:41 -
[1077] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
90% of new players leave the game in their first 30 days. The status quo isn't very successful.
Compared to what ? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37625
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 08:56:05 -
[1078] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
90% of new players leave the game in their first 30 days. The status quo isn't very successful.
Compared to what ?
Success?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
248
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 09:34:12 -
[1079] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:All the information that CCP has posted is available to go read. You can go and see the reasons just the same as the rest of us.
Firstly, please feel free to direct me to this data CCP has collected and published. I honestly just don't know where to find it. BUT! There is a more pressing issue. You said:
Scipio Artellius wrote:90% of new players leave the game in their first 30 days.
Then you said:
Scipio Artellius wrote:What's wrong with CCP aiming, not to force anyone into a player corp, but to create an environment where that group is able to more easily find the type of content that the other 10% move into?
That is not only player corp focused. That's just one thing that correlates with higher retention. CCP have stated several times the types of activities that correlate with players subscribing beyond 30 days including a higher use of chat channels, trading on the market, taking part in fleets, being involved in combat pvp, using voice comms, using contracts. It's not that these things aren't done within npc starter corps, it's more that the nature of starter corps doesn't provide an environment where these things are part of being in the corp for all players. Many of these things are more likely to occur naturally in player Corps.
And, I'm left wondering how you are inferring that player corporations are more likely to provide players with the experiences that keep them playing when, according to your own words, 90% of ALL new players leave the game, whether they be in a player or NPC corporation.
Furthermore, are you (or CCP) taking into account the probability that many of those leaving the game within 30 days are:
- alts, with a specific purpose that is fullfilled within those 30 days
- former players just coming to check back on the game or who otherwise never intended to stick with the game
- people who have reasons for not continuing that are unrelated to the game, etc.
It is for good reason that there exists the cliche: "Correlation does not equate to causation." Data is great and useful, but it doesn't necessarily tell us "why" or "how". It may be that, rather than people quitting because they are in an NPC corporation, they stay or join into an NPC corporation because they know they are going to quit. If 90% of ALL new players quit and 100% of all new players start in an NPC corporation, why should we expect NPC corporations NOT to have a higher washout rate? The only quesiton is how much higher should their dropout rate be. |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
138
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 09:50:29 -
[1080] - Quote
The issue is, as Fozzie (I think?) put it, that the new player experience (tutorial and NPC starter corps included) points players in the direction of the kind of gameplay that is associated with poor retention. The responsiblity of getting newbies more deeply involved with the game is left almost entirely to other players GÇô some of whom are in NPC corps, most of whom are in player corps.
People generally agree that this is the case, the question is what should be done about it.
On the other hand, you might just be a brain in a jar, so why try anything.
(edit: actually I think it was Rise) |
|
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1485
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 09:53:33 -
[1081] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Lol Well why not allow them to wardec the NPC corp ? Because if they do such corps become inherently worthless in every way compared to a one man corp most likely. They could be replaced by chat channels while not grouping largely unaffiliated players up to defend from the incoming wars. That's not entirely correct.. if you declare war on an NPC corp you are then a legal target for everyone in that NPC corp.
Which again, lacks a great deal of meaning when dealing with unaffiliated characters. There is a small chance of organized response while the aggressor gains a large pool of targets if people stayed. Which is exactly why most won't.
If you don't want to defend against a wardec now, why would you make it efficient to be placed in one? |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
248
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 10:41:53 -
[1082] - Quote
beakerax wrote:The responsiblity of getting newbies more deeply involved with the game is left almost entirely to other players . . . the question is what should be done about it.
The responsibility of getting newbies more deeply involved with the game is primarily the responsibiliy of the newbies themselves. Why should the focus be on other people pushing new players to play? Why shouldn't the focus be on empowering new players to take matters into their own hands?
This idea of subordinating new players to more entrenched participants of the game might even be the problem.
beakerax wrote: GÇô some of whom are in NPC corps, most of whom are in player corps.
People generally agree that this is the case
i can haz data point? |
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
143
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 11:36:21 -
[1083] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Why should the focus be on other people pushing new players to play? Why shouldn't the focus be on empowering new players to take matters into their own hands?
Perhaps it should. It isn't.
Quote:i can haz data point?
The fanfest videos and CSM minutes are available. I'm empowering you to go dig them up yourself. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25155
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 11:48:24 -
[1084] - Quote
All the NPC Corps, with the sole exception of CAS, are quiet, barren, and antisocial. If all of them except CAS were dissolved tomorrow, the players who love to play alone could continue living life in one-person Player Corps. The players who like social environments would have to go find Player Corporations (which happen to be how people get together in EVE).
Explain to me again why anyone is arguing any of the non-CAS NPC Corps should stay?
Oh, right. Wardecs. Wardecs has been what this entire discussion has been about from the start. Wardec immunity and how even 100% tax would not be enough for someone to relinquish that immunity.
(sorry Scipio, I thought I'd create some content by making the discussion as far left of neutral as possible).
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
248
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 12:06:56 -
[1085] - Quote
Is this what you meant to say?
beakerax wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Why should the focus be on other people pushing new players to play? Why shouldn't the focus be on empowering new players to take matters into their own hands? I'm so ******* angry right now I can't even formulate a coherent response. AHHHHHHHH!!!! Mayhaw Morgan wrote:i can haz data point? I saw it one time, on the internet or maybe it was at the library. It's there. I promise. Google it "data pointz". #whereiswaldo #truestories
I sincerely hope I am interpreting your response correctly. |
Nevil Oscillator
188
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 12:10:26 -
[1086] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Which again, lacks a great deal of meaning when dealing with unaffiliated characters. There is a small chance of organized response while the aggressor gains a large pool of targets if people stayed. Which is exactly why most won't.
If you don't want to defend against a wardec now, why would you make it efficient to be placed in one?
You've lost me there , not sure what it has to do with being efficient.
Correct me if I am wrong, NPC corps do nothing other than tax you.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
144
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 12:18:35 -
[1087] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:I sincerely hope I am interpreting your response correctly.
I find it difficult to believe that this claimed sincerity is genuine! |
Ferni Ka'Nviiou
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
15492
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 12:33:02 -
[1088] - Quote
I stay in the Republic University corp because I like the name.
And the icon.
And because I want to stay in the same corporation.
That's pretty much it.
I use an alt corp for doing missions when I want to play solely for ISK.
Thorav put to words my thoughts beyond that.
In regards to the NPC corp wardec immunity, I don't really think much of it. There's no benefit outside of highsec. And ironically it's the alt-corp I keep in highsec.
But not that it all really matters at this stage, I'm sure it's been all well discussed.
I just wanted to throw my opinion at the OP title.
I like Peppermint Chocolate. You?
|
Nevil Oscillator
189
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 14:56:50 -
[1089] - Quote
Ferni Ka'Nviiou wrote:I
But not that it all really matters at this stage, I'm sure it's been all well discussed.
I just wanted to throw my opinion at the OP title.
This may look like a long thread but it is mostly ranting and quoting the same very long paragraph over and over adding a few sentences with each person that replies to it. That's why I shorten the quotes to the part I am replying to. Some believe it is some kind of trick to win the argument but really it is as simple as that. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1486
|
Posted - 2015.05.27 20:15:41 -
[1090] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Which again, lacks a great deal of meaning when dealing with unaffiliated characters. There is a small chance of organized response while the aggressor gains a large pool of targets if people stayed. Which is exactly why most won't.
If you don't want to defend against a wardec now, why would you make it efficient to be placed in one?
You've lost me there , not sure what it has to do with being efficient. Correct me if I am wrong, NPC corps do nothing other than tax you.
NPC corps prevent prevent you from being wardec'd. You proposed removing that, at which point a single wardec efficiently places all of those players who were avoiding wars into a war.
Conversely by forming one man corps each has to be wardec'd individually which increases costs for chasing the characters down in numbers and greatly decreases the chances of any lesser known or targeted characters from receiving wardecs.
It's demonstrably far less isk efficient to chase the individual targets than having a single entity to wardec, and with any luck you won't be chased at all. |
|
|
Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 02:38:31 -
[1091] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
NPC corps prevent prevent you from being wardec'd. You proposed removing that, at which point a single wardec efficiently places all of those players who were avoiding wars into a war.
Conversely by forming one man corps each has to be wardec'd individually which increases costs for chasing the characters down in numbers and greatly decreases the chances of any lesser known or targeted characters from receiving wardecs.
It's demonstrably far less isk efficient to chase the individual targets than having a single entity to wardec, and with any luck you won't be chased at all.
Depends how much it costs to war deck an NPC Corp |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1486
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 02:45:07 -
[1092] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:
NPC corps prevent prevent you from being wardec'd. You proposed removing that, at which point a single wardec efficiently places all of those players who were avoiding wars into a war.
Conversely by forming one man corps each has to be wardec'd individually which increases costs for chasing the characters down in numbers and greatly decreases the chances of any lesser known or targeted characters from receiving wardecs.
It's demonstrably far less isk efficient to chase the individual targets than having a single entity to wardec, and with any luck you won't be chased at all.
Depends how much it costs to war deck an NPC Corp
Why would it have a cost calculated any differently than for any other corp? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37631
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 02:51:43 -
[1093] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:The responsibility of getting newbies more deeply involved with the game is primarily the responsibiliy of the newbies themselves. Why should the focus be on other people pushing new players to play? Why shouldn't the focus be on empowering new players to take matters into their own hands?
This idea of subordinating new players to more entrenched participants of the game might even be the problem.
Who is trying to subordinate anyone?
If you were CCP and had an issue with player retention, wouldn't you try to do something to change that?
That's all CCP are doing. They are forcing people to do anything, they aren't subordinating anyone. The only thing they are trying to do is provide conditions where new players discover the content that hooks them and they are doing it based on the data they have showing the types of experiences that the 10% of retained players get into early.
Of course it's ideal if new players take responsibility for getting into the game. At the same time, CCP is trying to address the huge difference that exists between the expectations of players before they join and then the reality of the experience they find when they do. All of those other experiences that attracted them are there. The old approach to the new player experience just didn't help them find it.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 03:35:16 -
[1094] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Why would it have a cost calculated any differently than for any other corp?
Because they are different |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1486
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 03:53:53 -
[1095] - Quote
That's not a justification for price differentiation. Alliances are different from individual corps yet have the same cost scaling.
An NPC corp of 10 people would need to cost more than an alliance/corp of 2000 for them to cost more to dec as a group than individually, so you would have a strong, relevant justification to make. |
Naga Elohim
Aeras Krekan Syndicate
18
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 04:28:12 -
[1096] - Quote
Ill say this,
After being in numerous corporations in Eve, and forging a few friendships (and enemies), I can honestly say the game is much much better when played with others. Content is key in any game and Eve players are my favorite to go to for such things.
However, I don't liked being told what to do with my time, especially if it sounds boring (personality trait). Why should I go orbit a hostile POS at full speed for hours when I can go mine Kernite in my Tormentor? (I DO NOT recommend this)
I created my own one man corp for just this reason. I have unlimited freedom. I still socialize with other corps in my home system and abroad. I can war dec corps that rustle my jimmies. I sneak into low-sec when I want for some thrills (or dank roids). I'll hit the occasional worm hole and hit sleeper sites while tapping the d-scan button every 3 seconds. Hell I might find a null-sec exit and check out the locale. Maybe even steal a gas cloud or two. Otherwise, it's high/low sec anomalies with some juicy PI to finance it all.
Maybe I'll join an Alliance one day. Which brings me to my point....
Eve is impossible to enjoy alone. No matter where you go, NPC corp or Lone Wolf, there will be a ganker, flipper, war target, or a confused player who hasn't quite grasped the rules and engages your ship without provocation. These things in and of itself create the best content I've experienced to date.
So to answer your question, I think people stay in NPC corps because they're not informed enough, don't like the extreme risk, and/or they're generally anti-social even in RL.
Eve is like an orgy. It's best enjoyed with others. |
Naga Elohim
Aeras Krekan Syndicate
18
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 04:51:30 -
[1097] - Quote
Naga Elohim wrote:Ill say this,
After being in numerous corporations in Eve, and forging a few friendships (and enemies), I can honestly say the game is much much better when played with others. Content is key in any game and Eve players are my favorite to go to for such things.
I think a lot of players are like me.. I generally don't liked being told what to do with my time, especially if it sounds boring (personality trait). Why should I go orbit a hostile POS at full speed for hours when I can go mine Kernite in my Tormentor? (I DO NOT recommend this) The point of a game like Eve is to play it the way YOU want to, and that's why I love it. I created a one man corp and never looked back. I still socialize. I may even join an Alliance.
However...You should not be forced to do something that you don't want to do. Being ganked or flipped is one thing (because...mechanics), forcing Players to lose their possessions in non-consensual, true PVP combat is not something CCP intended, which is why I believe they implemented Crimewatch/Weapon safeties etc.
Eve is impossible to enjoy alone. No matter where you go, NPC corp or Lone Wolf, there will be a ganker, flipper, war target, or a confused player who hasn't quite grasped the rules and engages your ship without provocation. These things in and of itself create the best content I've experienced to date. They are unintended consequences of game mechanics, but when it crosses the line in to non-consensual combat that results in the loss of prized virtual possessions, it turns most people off.
So to answer your question, I think people stay in NPC corps because they're not informed enough, don't like the extreme risk, and/or they're generally anti-social even in RL.
Eve is like an orgy. It's best enjoyed with others.
|
Naga Elohim
Aeras Krekan Syndicate
18
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 04:57:01 -
[1098] - Quote
Ill say this,
After being in numerous corporations in Eve, and forging a few friendships (and enemies), I can honestly say the game is much much better when played with others. Content is key in any game and Eve players are my favorite to go to for such things.
I think a lot of players are like me.. I generally don't liked being told what to do with my time, especially if it sounds boring (personality trait). Why should I go orbit a hostile POS at full speed for hours when I can go mine Kernite in my Tormentor? (I DO NOT recommend this) The point of a game like Eve is to play it the way YOU want to, and that's why I love it. I created a one man corp and never looked back. I still socialize with other corps around my care-bear high sec system. If I want risk, I know where to find it (Null/Low/Holes)
I do whatever I want, and I love to do it all...without some mouth-breather asking me why I haven't logged in for 3 days..
However...You should not be forced to do something that you don't want to do. Being ganked or flipped is one thing (because...mechanics), forcing Players to lose their possessions in non-consensual combat is not something CCP intended, which is why I believe they implemented Crimewatch/Weapon safeties etc.
Eve is impossible to enjoy alone. No matter where you go, NPC corp or Lone Wolf, there will be a ganker, flipper, war target, or a confused player who hasn't quite grasped the rules and engages your ship without provocation. These things in and of itself create the best content I've experienced to date. They are unintended consequences of game mechanics, but when it crosses the line in to one sided, totally defenseless, "not even an honor tank" combat..It begins to feel, unfair.
Eve is cold and harsh, but it isn't Soviet-Bloc cold and harsh. There are still rules to obey. It IS a game....
So to answer your question, I think people stay in NPC corps because they're not informed enough, don't like the extreme risk, and/or they're generally anti-social even in RL.
Eve is like an orgy. It's best enjoyed with others. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1049
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 06:19:53 -
[1099] - Quote
Naga Elohim wrote:So to answer your question, I think people stay in NPC corps because they're not informed enough, don't like the extreme risk, and/or they're generally anti-social even in RL...and it should be no one else's business as long as subscriptions are being paid and the time is being enjoyed.
It literally is CCP's business if the poor retention rates of new players is influenced by the fact they never leave NPC corps and engage with the greater Eve universe as their data says.
Do what you want - the player freedom offered in this game is to be relished - but there is a very real reason people are concerned over this behaviour. Don't confuse efforts to get new players socially and otherwise engaged with the sandbox as an attack on how you choose to play the game. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
248
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 07:00:44 -
[1100] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:The responsibility of getting newbies more deeply involved with the game is primarily the responsibiliy of the newbies themselves. Why should the focus be on other people pushing new players to play? Why shouldn't the focus be on empowering new players to take matters into their own hands?
This idea of subordinating new players to more entrenched participants of the game might even be the problem. Who is trying to subordinate anyone? If you were CCP and had an issue with new player retention, wouldn't you try to do something to change that? That's all CCP are doing. They aren't forcing people to do anything, nor subordinating anyone. The only thing they are trying to do is provide conditions where new players discover the content that hooks them and they are doing it based on the data they have showing the types of experiences that the 10% of retained players get into early. Empowering is exactly the right word for what they are trying to do. Of course it's ideal if new players take responsibility for getting into the game. At the same time, CCP is trying to address the huge difference that exists between the expectations of players before they join and then the reality of the experience they find when they do. All of those other experiences that attracted them are there. The old approach to the new player experience just didn't help them find it.
Anyone arguing for a de facto penalty on NPC corp membership is, in deed, trying to subordinate new players to the leadership of any player corporation they might join in response to that penalization. Taking away or penalizing an option or enhancing the rewards of an alternative steers the chooser toward the "better" choice. The "better" choice, in this case, is player corp participation. Especially for new players, that means subjecting themselves more directly to the will and judgement of an established corp's CEO/leadership and to war dec'ing corporations/alliances. Well, the CEO/leadership isn't called that because they do what YOU tell THEM. Either you do what THEY tell YOU or you GTFO of their corporation, typically. War dec' corporations/alliances don't even pretend to care what you want. They just force their will upon you by space violence. Both of these are, in fact, examples of subordination.
And, please spare us the dogma about how noobs can do x, y, or z to remedy this subordination, because we all know they probably don't know how to do x, y, OR z, letalone have the skillpoints to do them effectively.
You keep begging the question by saying that penalizing NPC corporation players or buffing player corp players is an attempt to fix a problem with player retention. Until you can prove that NPC corporations are the source of the problem, you can't prove that disrupting their function is a solution to that problem. I have yet to see a compelling piece of data that says that players are more likely to leave the game because staying in an NPC corporation is an option. I don't think there is such a piece of data and, unlike you, I don't think CCP thinks there is such a piece of data. |
|
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Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 07:48:51 -
[1101] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:That's not a justification for price differentiation. Alliances are different from individual corps yet have the same cost scaling.
An NPC corp of 10 people would need to cost more than an alliance/corp of 2000 for them to cost more to dec as a group than individually, so you would have a strong, relevant justification to make.
I don't need to justify the price difference, it's a completely invented number in the first place. What's if for ? administration costs ? |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 08:30:59 -
[1102] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If, for example, wars could not be dodged, and people were forced to use the surrender mechanic as it was intended.
Within half a year, the highsec corps that were left would be ones that you know have passed the test, and could be counted on to be worthwhile to their members.
Pointing people towards good corps is all well and good as an idea, but enabling the removal of the oh-so-many bad corps from the pool is far more important.
Do you mean like James315 dropping when corp when war-decced in the early days of CODE? His excuse at the time was "I am using carebears own methods against them". Pause the narration. So carebears declare war? I thought that a preferred objective? Being more engaged.
*===========
If there were decent tools for locating a corp. I still have not found a corp for mid-life crisis, shift working, Zen-Buddhists. But I am hopeful. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1487
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 09:35:42 -
[1103] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:I don't need to justify the price difference, it's a completely invented number in the first place.
So your contention is that the formula for wardec costs is completely arbitrarty and devoid of game play goals? That's really the only reason to conclude pricing doesn't matter.
I'm not even sure what you mean by asking what it's for though. Mechanically speaking it's for declaring a war, nothing more. It exists because CCP decided there should be an associated cost and exist as it does currently due to their re-evaluation of what those costs should be.
It seems like you are saying their numbers are wrong while at the same time acknowledging you don't know what they were intended to achieve and somehow using that to assume they weren't intended to achieve anything. Sure, you aren't obligated to any justification, but I can't see this conversation going any further if you just handwave existing mechanics as "invented." |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13169
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 10:18:26 -
[1104] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:So carebears declare war?
Half a dozen times or so, I suppose. But statistically, I think that is referred to as an "outlier".
Quote:
I still have not found a corp for mid-life crisis, shift working, Zen-Buddhists. But I am hopeful.
Your standards are too high.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 11:45:46 -
[1105] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: Sure, you aren't obligated to any justification, but I can't see this conversation going any further if you just handwave existing mechanics as "invented."
You could have an opt in as well as an opt out.
|
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1691
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 11:58:25 -
[1106] - Quote
I like this wardec npc corps idea... unfortunately people who are far more voracious than I would put it to task.
It doesn't matter what the price is, as raising it will not discourage larger entities from paying the fee. A larger fee would only keep smaller entities, who ironically the NPC corps would have a much easier time dealing with, from being able to declare.
Meanwhile large groups who specialize in war will have their own little space orgy of violence because they CAN afford it.
So, ISK argument in this situation is actually a bad one.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37634
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 12:03:50 -
[1107] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You keep begging the question by saying that penalizing NPC corporation players or buffing player corp players is an attempt to fix a problem with player retention. Until you can prove that NPC corporations are the source of the problem, you can't prove that disrupting their function is a solution to that problem. I have yet to see a compelling piece of data that says that players are more likely to leave the game because staying in an NPC corporation is an option. I don't think there is such a piece of data and, unlike you, I don't think CCP thinks there is such a piece of data.
That's a complete load of bullshit. I've never said such a thing.
Quite the opposite. Get off the NPC Corporatios are the source of the probelm and open your mind. NPC Corporations are not the issue (can't believe I had to right that again).
The reason you haven't seen the data that 90% of new players leave the game within their first 30 days is because you've done nothing but whinge for it to be given to you here. Stop being lazy and go read/watch the information from CCP like the rest of us have.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 12:24:02 -
[1108] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:I like this wardec npc corps idea... unfortunately people who are far more voracious than I would put it to task.
It doesn't matter what the price is, as raising it will not discourage larger entities from paying the fee. A larger fee would only keep smaller entities, who ironically the NPC corps would have a much easier time dealing with, from being able to declare.
Meanwhile large groups who specialize in war will have their own little space orgy of violence because they CAN afford it.
So, ISK argument in this situation is actually a bad one.
I was suggesting that each NPC corporation could have it's own militia who can be at war |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1692
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 12:41:44 -
[1109] - Quote
Ah. so many posts, I admit freely to having skimmed the last 30 pages or so.
That would be interesting, but I have a feeling that those militias would be largely empty, with perhaps the exception of CAS.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
168
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 13:51:33 -
[1110] - Quote
There are various different aspects to EVE that I see being talked about in this thread, and from my perspective they all require different approaches:
- New player retention. "New player" being a person new to EVE for 30 days or less. These are the people who were mentioned by CCP Rise during Fanfest. They are all almost exclusively in NPC corps.
- Veteran player retention. I haven't seen any data on this subject presented by anybody. Some are in player corps, some in NPC corps, some still in their starter corp after 10 or more years.
- Highsec PvP combat opportunities. This revolves around the mechanics of suicide ganking, wardecs, and crimewatch; wardecs are impacted by NPC corp membership and player corp size.
My thoughts on each topic:
- In-game social groups, as discussed in a different thread, are extremely important here. IMO social engagement is what draws people into Eve, and unless a new player already has contacts within the game, it is unreasonable to expect a new player to generate significant social ties on their own, in the current player-corp environment, in such a short time, while also trying to figure out the game mechanics. Existing starter corps (except CAS of course) are not set up to generate such ties. A concerted effort by the rest of the player base, though in-game advocating of social groups, which require no commitment and are therefore easy for new players to investigate, discard if it doesn't meet their needs, try another, and ultimately can be a gateway to the rest of Eve's opportunities for interaction if they like it.
- These people have been playing for a long time already. No changes are needed to corp structure, for either player or NPC corp players, to ensure their continued play. They know the game, they play the way they play, and trying to get them to play differently likely will, I think, actually hurt retention of this group.
- Wardecs... Wardecs, wardecs, wardecs... There's a gazillion ideas on what to do about highsec in general, including wardecs, and I won't re-list them all here. |
|
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Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 13:54:28 -
[1111] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Ah. so many posts, I admit freely to having skimmed the last 30 pages or so.
That would be interesting, but I have a feeling that those militias would be largely empty, with perhaps the exception of CAS.
It seems a bit pointless wardecing NPC Corps if their carebears are not in any danger, it has to appeal to pirates not just people looking for a fight. Tempting players out of the safety zone but with what ? I like the idea of NPC corps dealing with their enemies through players but how do they get enemies when they are immune to anything but a suicide attack ? |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
249
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 15:38:21 -
[1112] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:That's a complete load of bullshit. I've never said such a thing.
Quite the opposite. Get off the NPC Corporations are the source of the probelm and open your mind. NPC Corporations are not the issue (can't believe I had to right that again).
The reason you haven't seen the data that 90% of new players leave the game within their first 30 days is because you've done nothing but whinge for it to be given to you here. Stop being lazy and go read/watch the information from CCP like the rest of us have.
If you are having trouble keeping your own story straight, just imagine how confused I must be about what it is you are trying to say. In one post you're claiming player corps are better and that's why CCP needs to push players into them. In the next, you're denying having said that. You are telling us about supposed data that says NPC corp players quit more, then you are back tracking and pointing to a 90% attrition rate for new players as if that somehow has to do with NPC corp membership. I can't figure it out, either. But, I am not going on a wild goose chase looking for phantom data that makes your case for you. Find it yourself and provide a link to it or STFU about it. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
382
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 19:36:15 -
[1113] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
NPC Corps are fine.
I don't really have an argument with you then. NPC corps are a side issue within the greater problem of player retention and mostly a red herring thrown out by highsec pvp all stars that want more things to shoot.
Terrible, terrible people forming player corps in highsec, recruiting newbies and then giving them absolutely no guidance on how to not to get violenced by wardeccers and gankers are a much bigger issue. That's player corps and the people who start them. A new player experience which leaves people completely unprepared for the dark side of EVE (scamming, wardecs, the prevalence and utility of alts for griefing, ganking) is another problem.
But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
775
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 20:35:02 -
[1114] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
NPC Corps are fine.
I don't really have an argument with you then. NPC corps are a side issue within the greater problem of player retention and mostly a red herring thrown out by highsec pvp all stars that want more things to shoot. Terrible, terrible people forming player corps in highsec, recruiting newbies and then giving them absolutely no guidance on how to not to get violenced by wardeccers and gankers are a much bigger issue. That's player corps and the people who start them. A new player experience which leaves people completely unprepared for the dark side of EVE (scamming, wardecs, the prevalence and utility of alts for griefing, ganking) is another problem. But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation.
It's really a case of casualism and/or min/max.
Many of the people that test Eve, likely have come from another MMO.
Their experience, prior to Eve, revolved around games with zones that are dedicated to non-PVP without consent.
They are also familiar with level grinding, which in many games, can get you from newb to end game content in a month.
As we are all aware, this is not the case in Eve.
There is no end game content and there is no option for pure safety.
That said,'I am NOT suggesting a change for the formula in order to support this.
The market would fall apart as most players, including those with alts in high, would gravitate their characters towards this area.
However, I do not support the alternative of taking away safety, as it is. This would not only deter new players, but would likely cause the dropping of many so to say "carebears" as well as cause alt accounts to drop, due to lack of safer gameplay.
As far as retention of players, both new and old, I think this is an issue of two cases.
1) community - There's got to be social interaction. This is not an issue of corps(player or NPC), but instead the fault of the players.
We have essentially built a barrier inhibiting player interaction. Remember the Eve Moto of "Trust no one"? Well, this has the alternate effect of inhibiting the social interaction with new players. Not very many people want to help a new bro, as you can't trust them.
2) Content - we're all aware that it takes a bit of time to become efficient at combat. This leaves mining as the most effective activity a newbro can involve themselves in for at least the first two weeks. Even after that, their combat efficiency is extremely limit. However, once you've developed efficient combat skills, you still likely have developed funding, so PVP involvement is extremely limited, unless you manage to get into an alliance with a ship hand out program.
If you do manage to get interest from an alliance, there's about a 50-50 chance that you're being baited.
Content can be corrected by providing more low level and high level content in all security areas.
As far as community, well... Eve players are a$$holes... |
Naga Elohim
Aeras Krekan Syndicate
19
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 20:55:48 -
[1115] - Quote
When I first played Eve, there was nothing like it. I never permanently lost virtual assets in a game before. It brought a level of risk vs reward to games previously unseen (in my eyes) Knowing you can lose everything ina few moments of blood-lust was exhilarating. In reality not everyone wants to lose things. It takes a special person to accept and recover from loss, and frankly some humans just don't have it. So they unsubscribe.
New players don't quite know what they are getting themselves into when they subscribe. They play the game for a while then eventually get ganked, flipped, awoxed, hyperdunked etc and realize that the ship they just grinded 25 hours to get, is now space dust. Its a new concept for most casual games to get used to.
This game doesn't appeal to the masses. The game is full of risk, but the problem is people don't like taking risks. That's why they stay in NPC corps. They simply just don't have that aggressive/competitive personality trait required for player vs. player scenarios..
Not everyone can handle or stomach losing ships etc in Eve. Especially when said possessions had so much time poured into them. Imagine going from (insert generic MMO here) to Eve Online. Its a world apart. You have to MENTALLY prepare to permanently lose things. Most cant handle that....so they unsubscribe.
It's all psychology.
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
382
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 20:57:01 -
[1116] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
NPC Corps are fine.
I don't really have an argument with you then. NPC corps are a side issue within the greater problem of player retention and mostly a red herring thrown out by highsec pvp all stars that want more things to shoot. Terrible, terrible people forming player corps in highsec, recruiting newbies and then giving them absolutely no guidance on how to not to get violenced by wardeccers and gankers are a much bigger issue. That's player corps and the people who start them. A new player experience which leaves people completely unprepared for the dark side of EVE (scamming, wardecs, the prevalence and utility of alts for griefing, ganking) is another problem. But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation. It's really a case of casualism and/or min/max. Many of the people that test Eve, likely have come from another MMO. Their experience, prior to Eve, revolved around games with zones that are dedicated to non-PVP without consent. They are also familiar with level grinding, which in many games, can get you from newb to end game content in a month. As we are all aware, this is not the case in Eve. There is no end game content and there is no option for pure safety. That said,'I am NOT suggesting a change for the formula in order to support this. The market would fall apart as most players, including those with alts in high, would gravitate their characters towards this area. However, I do not support the alternative of taking away safety, as it is. This would not only deter new players, but would likely cause the dropping of many so to say "carebears" as well as cause alt accounts to drop, due to lack of safer gameplay. As far as retention of players, both new and old, I think this is an issue of two cases. 1) community - There's got to be social interaction. This is not an issue of corps(player or NPC), but instead the fault of the players. We have essentially built a barrier inhibiting player interaction. Remember the Eve Moto of "Trust no one"? Well, this has the alternate effect of inhibiting the social interaction with new players. Not very many people want to help a new bro, as you can't trust them. 2) Content - we're all aware that it takes a bit of time to become efficient at combat. This leaves mining as the most effective activity a newbro can involve themselves in for at least the first two weeks. Even after that, their combat efficiency is extremely limit. However, once you've developed efficient combat skills, you still likely have developed funding, so PVP involvement is extremely limited, unless you manage to get into an alliance with a ship hand out program. If you do manage to get interest from an alliance, there's about a 50-50 chance that you're being baited. Content can be corrected by providing more low level and high level content in all security areas. As far as community, well... Eve players are a$$holes...
Mining is not the most efficient ISK generation method for a newbie it's just the most obvious.
You are correct that the burden falls largely on existing players. You can't slaughter/scam people relentlessly and then come to the forums spouting off about the retention problem. It's all well and good to say "it's their responsibility to learn the game" but frankly that is a shortsighted and stupid mindset that will result eventually in nothing left of EVE but a few thousand bittervets chasing each other's alts around.
And with all the talk about how many people leave in the first month I'm surprised no one has stated the obvious -
This is a very complex game with a famously vicious learning curve and the skill training system is quite daunting for a day one player. I was there, not terribly long ago. I remind mousing over various ships and modules and then looking at the training time under "requirements" and just being crushed. And then I realized I would need a legion of support skills even once those requirements were met. So it's fair to say you are going to have a significant percentage of the people that try this game promptly fleeing for their lives and sanity. With this thought in mind, 90% doesn't sound nearly as unreasonable.
Beyond that, if you want new players, act like it. You guys with a dozen alts could consider rolling another one and leaving him in a rookie corp to actually do something about the problem. There's a thought.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37642
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 22:02:55 -
[1117] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:If you are having trouble keeping your own story straight, just imagine how confused I must be about what it is you are trying to say. In one post you're claiming player corps are better and that's why CCP needs to push players into them. In the next, you're denying having said that. You are telling us about supposed data that says NPC corp players quit more, then you are back tracking and pointing to a 90% attrition rate for new players as if that somehow has to do with NPC corp membership. I can't figure it out, either. But, I am not going on a wild goose chase looking for phantom data that makes your case for you. Find it yourself and provide a link to it or STFU about it.
At this point it doesn't surprise me you can't figure it out. It seems plainly clear why and I now understand why Kaarous was surprised earlier that you could even read.
I haven't backtracked on a single point or had any difficulty keeping my posts straight. They're all consistent in the message. As for the data, I don't need to find it. I have the links to CCPs statements both here in the forum and the relevant presentations at Fanfest both in 2014 and this year. So you can think it's phantom all you like and it'll make no difference. CCP will continue to try to empower new players through broader experiences irrespective of your head being buried in the sand.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13169
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 22:58:23 -
[1118] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation.
You solve a player created problem with other players. Specifically, those gankers and wardeccers you so despise.
Bad corps should die on the vine, but in the ridiculous safety that is highsec, that's far too difficult to do. Incentivize conflict, make it more accessible and more widespread, and watch these bad corps die.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
775
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 23:29:26 -
[1119] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation.
You solve a player created problem with other players. Specifically, those gankers and wardeccers you so despise. Bad corps should die on the vine, but in the ridiculous safety that is highsec, that's far too difficult to do. Incentivize conflict, make it more accessible and more widespread, and watch these bad corps die.
Again spewing what you want, which is to make high sec less safe.
Go ahead... Make high sec less safe and all casuals targets.
Shouldn't be too long before you regret that...
Maybe 4 weeks before the market falls apart and the price of everything doubles.
That's if the major alliances don't take control.
If that happens, which is proven they can already do through war decs and ganks, there will be no where for even you to go to earn Isk..... |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13169
|
Posted - 2015.05.28 23:43:13 -
[1120] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Shouldn't be too long before you regret that...
Maybe 4 weeks before the market falls apart and the price of everything doubles.
If your best argument involves publicly demonstrating that you have zero clue how the economy works, you should have just stayed out of the discussion.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25180
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 00:15:20 -
[1121] - Quote
This thread is about wardec immunity and only wardec immunity. Everything else is window dressing (like Ferni says.. a pretty logo and a name).
Feeling antisocial? Don't want to take orders? Make a one-man corp.
Want to collaborate with other players without having to take orders from a Player Corp boss? Sure. But why would you want wardec immunity as a bonus for that? One has nothing to do with the other. Justify your "get off my NPC porch" rant all you want, but what you are really clinging onto is that sweet, sweet wardec immunity.
There is no justification for any corp in EVE to have wardec immunity. I'm sure a system of payment and immunity for players <30 days in age can be worked out with no problems whatsoever.
And if haulers blow up and prices skyrocket in the market, so what? Content is content.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
775
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 00:50:53 -
[1122] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Shouldn't be too long before you regret that...
Maybe 4 weeks before the market falls apart and the price of everything doubles.
If your best argument involves publicly demonstrating that you have zero clue how the economy works, you should have just stayed out of the discussion.
I think you have no clue, of the value high sec players provide to the economy.
In your attempt to publicly shame me, you have only managed to show you have no knowledge of what high sec brings to the table.
You very much underestimate the power of the care bear stare.. |
Amy Undergood
Life Associates
15
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 01:02:47 -
[1123] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I think you have no clue, of the value high sec players provide to the economy.
You very much underestimate the power of the care bear stare..
Carebears are just a convenience, nothing more.
Those that aren't afraid to play the game are happy to take care of their own needs if the carebears weren't there, whether directly by manufacturing themselves or finding someone that will.
The only thing Carebears offer is self interest. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13170
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 01:33:19 -
[1124] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I think you have no clue, of the value high sec players provide to the economy.
And the demonstration continues.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
beakerax
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
152
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 01:39:22 -
[1125] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Justify your "get off my NPC porch" rant all you want, but what you are really clinging onto is that sweet, sweet wardec immunity.
Some people have posted that they stay in NPC corps because of wardec immunity. Other people have posted that they stay in NPC corps for reasons other than wardec immunity. There are two options:
GÇô they're all liars
GÇô you are wrong about what these other people find worthwhile
Quote:Feeling antisocial? Don't want to take orders? Make a one-man corp.
I still don't see how this is an improvement for anyone. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
387
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 01:44:30 -
[1126] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
But I don't see a way to solve the first problem beyond some kind of intricate barrier to corp creation.
You solve a player created problem with other players. Specifically, those gankers and wardeccers you so despise. Bad corps should die on the vine, but in the ridiculous safety that is highsec, that's far too difficult to do. Incentivize conflict, make it more accessible and more widespread, and watch these bad corps die.
I don't despise gankers all that much, nor even war deccers per se. I have an issue with people flying strategic cruisers who slaughter bads in shitfit barges and railgun battleships and think that makes them elite pvp authorities, and wonder why "HURRDURR duh careebears won't undock CCP make them."
This is a game. Not everyone is going to invest the same amount of time, effort, or real world cash that you do. In light of that it is unreasonable to expect people to compete on your terms in every area of the game. I don't see a problem with giving people a relatively safe place to make ISK where only egregious stupidity will kill you.
Bad corps are never going to stop being created. And you wouldn't want that to happen anyway, because then who would you shoot? |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25184
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 02:18:47 -
[1127] - Quote
beakerax wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Justify your "get off my NPC porch" rant all you want, but what you are really clinging onto is that sweet, sweet wardec immunity. Some people have posted that they stay in NPC corps because of wardec immunity. Other people have posted that they stay in NPC corps for reasons other than wardec immunity. There are two options: GÇô they're all liars GÇô you are wrong about what these other people find worthwhile
If losing wardec immunity isn't a problem, then the thread can end.
I don't think anyone has an issue with NPC Corps if wardec immunity is removed. It's about as simple as that.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1488
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 02:33:23 -
[1128] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:beakerax wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Justify your "get off my NPC porch" rant all you want, but what you are really clinging onto is that sweet, sweet wardec immunity. Some people have posted that they stay in NPC corps because of wardec immunity. Other people have posted that they stay in NPC corps for reasons other than wardec immunity. There are two options: GÇô they're all liars GÇô you are wrong about what these other people find worthwhile If losing wardec immunity isn't a problem, then the thread can end. I don't think anyone has an issue with NPC Corps if wardec immunity is removed. It's about as simple as that.
Well, I imagine the inhabitants of NPC corps would. I can't see them becoming vulnerable without seeing significant drops in membership.
After all at the point wardec immunity is dropped they become significantly inferior to one man corps in every way whether players want to be social or not. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
775
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 02:35:00 -
[1129] - Quote
Amy Undergood wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I think you have no clue, of the value high sec players provide to the economy.
You very much underestimate the power of the care bear stare.. Carebears are just a convenience, nothing more. Those that aren't afraid to play the game are happy to take care of their own needs if the carebears weren't there, whether directly by manufacturing themselves or finding someone that will. The only thing Carebears offer is self interest. This thread is a good example of that.
Ohhh... Look at the little elitist.... So cute...
You're seriously blind if you don't think Care Bears arent a major factor in the economy.
Regardless of self interest, the loot, salvage, and minerals procured and sold in high sec are not marginal.
The point still stands that if you make high sec less safe, you're not making it better for yourself.
You're only making it better for groups like the goons...
Remember when they blew up any ship that tried to mine in Gallente space?
Yeah... Now just imagine if what they did was made easier.
Don't think it affects you?
You're sorely mistaken.
We've already established that it's not all that difficult to get kills in high sec.
We've established that there's plenty of risks in doing so.
We've even established that being in an NPC corp does not make you safe.
....and all this was established by the people on your side of the fence.
So.. I fail to see what the issue is...
Oh wait... That's right... You want to kill people easier.... My bad |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25184
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 02:41:46 -
[1130] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
I don't think anyone has an issue with NPC Corps if wardec immunity is removed. It's about as simple as that.
Well, I imagine the inhabitants of NPC corps would. I can't see them becoming vulnerable without seeing significant drops in membership.
Yes, I believe I said exactly this at the top of the page.
Quote:After all at the point wardec immunity is dropped they become significantly inferior to one man corps in every way whether players want to be social or not.
This would be the system working as intended. Players get exposed to content, they join Player Corps, or make their own. Either way, they get access to new parts of the game, like structures, SOV, you name it.
Why is this such a problem?
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1488
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 02:50:26 -
[1131] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:This would be the system working as intended. Players get exposed to content, they join Player Corps, or make their own. Either way, they get access to new parts of the game, like structures, SOV, you name it.
Why is this such a problem?
It's not a problem as evidenced by the working examples on non-NPC corps, but with that said why is the inverse an problem?
Why is the ability to select content and risk in this manner so different from any other? Why are wardecs seen as such an important linchpin of a mechanic in themselves that every players needs to be affected by them? for that matter how did that single mechanic become equivalent to the whole of content?
Why can't players decide they have no interest in sov or structures and tailor play accordingly? |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8678
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:00:50 -
[1132] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
There is no justification for any corp in EVE to have wardec immunity.
That's about NPC corps, right? If not, then ignore what I write next.
I'm pretty sure that the sudden loss of a significant portion of the player base is a pretty good justification for keeping immunity. On the other hand, if immunity is removed the people who stay in NPC corps will be wardeccing everyone and utterly destroying any corp less than 500 people.
People won't even bother making player corps. No point to it. Most NPC corps will be larger than the current alliances. The game will be completely changed.
So you have two options. A game that is slowly but steadily increasing it's playerbase with immunity as it stands now or a game with half the population we have now where everyone is jammed into a dozen mega-corps.
It may seem a simple thing to remove immunity, but I feel you haven't really looked at the consequences of doing it.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25184
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:04:20 -
[1133] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:It's not a problem as evidenced by the working examples on non-NPC corps, but with that said why is the inverse an problem?
Why is the ability to select content and risk in this manner so different from any other? Why are wardecs seen as such an important linchpin of a mechanic in themselves that every players needs to be affected by them? for that matter how did that single mechanic become equivalent to the whole of content?
Why can't players decide they have no interest in sov or structures and tailor play accordingly?
I will flip the question on you.
If it is not such a problem, what is the issue with removing wardec immunity? Players are free to "have no interest in sov or structures and tailor play accordingly", but I don't see what all that has to do with having wardec immunity? Can't they continue to have all those aspirations while being vulnerable to wardecs in the same way that everyone else is in the game?
Why would I want wardec immunity removed?
- Because it removes exposure to content from players who are most vulnerable to quitting. We can argue about NPC Corps and quitting, but we all agree that content causes people to stay in the game. Wardecs are content.
- Because it's too powerful. Travel is an essential component of EVE. Travel can consume a significant portion of gameplay for someone who is out in space. Wardecs make travel in hisec for non-haulers 100% safe. Being immune during an activity that constitutes most of your time in space in hisec is too powerful.
- There is no lore or gameplay balancing reason for wardec immunity to exist.
- There is no statistical reason for wardec immunity to exist (see below).
From the horse's mouth:
CCP Rise wrote:We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.
Mr. Epeen see the quote above. Your assertion that players will leave is incorrect.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25186
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:10:58 -
[1134] - Quote
Wanted to reply to this. *rubs your shiny noggin*
Mr Epeen wrote:I'm pretty sure that the sudden loss of a significant portion of the player base is a pretty good justification for keeping immunity. On the other hand, if immunity is removed the people who stay in NPC corps will be wardeccing everyone and utterly destroying any corp less than 500 people.
People won't even bother making player corps. No point to it. Most NPC corps will be larger than the current alliances. The game will be completely changed.
Why would being in an NPC Corp give you a magical ability to bring more people together or create larger fleets than you could in a PC Corp?
Having access to a shared Corp chat with a massive number of players is no guarantee (at all) that you'll get anyone to participate. Even if you did get a massive number of people to participate, you would have no magical ability to have those participants be skilled and good PVPers. If you doubt me, you should look at my corp ticker.
And look at it this way. If someone succeeded in running massive NPC Corp fleets killing war targets all over hisec, then voila.. we just exposed NPC Corpies to content instead of it being solo-ville.
Win-win.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13171
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:13:33 -
[1135] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
This is a game. Not everyone is going to invest the same amount of time, effort, or real world cash that you do. In light of that it is unreasonable to expect people to compete on your terms in every area of the game.
So, do I get an easymode because I'm bad at the market? Or does this kind of coddling only apply to combat?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13172
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:16:32 -
[1136] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the sudden loss of a significant portion of the player base is a pretty good justification for keeping immunity.
It wasn't a good enough justification for the ISBotters. They can't hold the game hostage by threatening to withdraw their subs anymore, and CCP standing up to that selfish, petty tyranny is a good thing.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1488
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:19:19 -
[1137] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I will flip the question on you. If it is not such a problem, what is the issue with removing wardec immunity? Players are free to "have no interest in sov or structures and tailor play accordingly", but I don't see what all that has to do with having wardec immunity? Can't they continue to have all those aspirations while being vulnerable to wardecs in the same way that everyone else is in the game? Why would I want wardec immunity removed?
- Because it removes exposure to content from players who are most vulnerable to quitting. We can argue about NPC Corps and quitting, but we all agree that content causes people to stay in the game. Wardecs are content.
- Because it's too powerful. Travel is an essential component of EVE. Travel can consume a significant portion of gameplay for someone who is out in space. Wardecs make travel in hisec for non-haulers 100% safe. Being immune during an activity that constitutes most of your time in space in hisec is too powerful.
- There is no lore or gameplay balancing reason for wardec immunity to exist.
- There is no statistical reason for wardec immunity to exist (see below).
100% safety in space doesn't exist. It never has and likely never will, and in the off chance that the whole of CCP goes insane and it does, the conversation becomes moot. And no one denies wardecs are content, though there is no mandate for every player to participate in all content and more than enough forms of content to never receive a wardec while still never running out of things to do. Wardecs alone don't hold a special place for being content and thus can't be necessary for that reason.
Sibyyl wrote:From the horse's mouth: CCP Rise wrote:We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish. This statement is not relevant save for the case of new players and even then does not draw exclusively to wardecs or against NPC corp membership as single actors in new player retention (note wars specifically were never mentioned and only one aspect mentioned is specifically ship to ship PvP).
It certainly states that the notion of coddling new players from content is wrong, but we're dealing with a group that has made a conscious choice rather than having left out of ignorance of what the game has to offer. The argument you are making now is that the affected players made the wrong choice somehow and need to be forcibly corrected because someone else knows what their game play time should be spent doing better than they do. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13172
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:23:42 -
[1138] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The argument you are making now is that the affected players made the wrong choice somehow and need to be forcibly corrected because someone else knows what their game play time should be spent doing better than they do.
No, we're making the argument that no one should be able to completely ignore certain parts of the game without consequence, just because they made the deliberate choice to be bad at that part.
As before. I suck at the market. Should I get to be immune to that mechanic, just because I'm bad at it? Because this is EXACTLY what you are suggesting should be true about wardecs.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1488
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:27:09 -
[1139] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The argument you are making now is that the affected players made the wrong choice somehow and need to be forcibly corrected because someone else knows what their game play time should be spent doing better than they do. No, we're making the argument that no one should be able to completely ignore certain parts of the game without consequence, just because they made the deliberate choice to be bad at that part. As before. I suck at the market. Should I get to be immune to that mechanic, just because I'm bad at it? Because this is EXACTLY what you are suggesting should be true about wardecs.
No, the argument was that statistics about new player retention were relevant for older players in NPC corps. That was what that was in response to. And we should be able to understand why it doesn't apply.
Also your easy mode is buy orders, and as with NPC corps it comes at a price. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
775
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 03:54:15 -
[1140] - Quote
Got a solid Idea everyone should consider.
If you're in an NPC corp, then you're limited to the territory of that Faction.
IE - if you're in a Gallente corp, you're limited to Gallente high sec.
This does many things.
Casuals can keep war dec immunity while forcing people that take full advantage of the system out.
Want a hauler for cross faction trading, or even delivering goods to low/null/wh space? Join a corp.
Want to move out of Gallente space? Join a corp.
Want to do low sec roams? Join a corp.
A casual that is just mining or missioning is not really the major problem.
The problem is those that use war dec immunity for safe travel in support of other corps or engage in PVP activity but use the security of NPC corps to avoid being locked into a war. |
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25189
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:01:38 -
[1141] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The argument you are making now is that the affected players made the wrong choice somehow and need to be forcibly corrected because someone else knows what their game play time should be spent doing better than they do.
Actually my argument is very stark. I have nothing to say about all of the 1,000 reasons that people have for staying in NPC Corps. I am perfectly fine with those justifications, those players are welcome to these preferences, and I will never ever argue against their right to have these desires. I said earlier that these preferences are irrelevant because they cannot be debated. They are 100% subjective.
I just don't think these players should be immune to wardecs. Wardecs have as much power to force participation as any other aspect of the game - which is to say wardecs can't force you to participate at all. In the sandbox, you can use a variety of methods to deny kills and deny content (hint: docking up is only one such way. There are hundreds).
No player can be forced to PVP through a wardec. Hence, the removal of wardec immunity is not a challenge to any playstyle or player preference in the sandbox.
How can you force a player to do anything at all? It is not possible, you know.. free will, human ingenuity, and all that.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Paranoid Loyd
5417
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:04:39 -
[1142] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Got a solid Idea everyone should consider.
If you're in an NPC corp, then you're limited to the territory of that Faction.
IE - if you're in a Gallente corp, you're limited to Gallente high sec.
This does many things.
Casuals can keep war dec immunity while forcing people that take full advantage of the system out.
Want a hauler for cross faction trading, or even delivering goods to low/null/wh space? Join a corp.
Want to move out of Gallente space? Join a corp.
Want to do low sec roams? Join a corp.
A casual that is just mining or missioning is not really the major problem.
The problem is those that use war dec immunity for safe travel in support of other corps or engage in PVP activity but use the security of NPC corps to avoid being locked into a war.
Wow, I don't have a very high opinion of what you usually post, but this makes a lot of sense. (I am drunk right now so that may be the reason) I think the restrictions should not include the low null sec parts though and as this is a somewhat considerable nerf to NPC corps I might also argue it should be restricted to the allied factions instead of your faction only and you can go to the opposite factions space but Fac Po will enage like you have terrible standings.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
775
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:05:11 -
[1143] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The argument you are making now is that the affected players made the wrong choice somehow and need to be forcibly corrected because someone else knows what their game play time should be spent doing better than they do. Actually my argument is very stark. I have nothing to say about all of the 1,000 reasons that people have for staying in NPC Corps. I am perfectly fine with those justifications, those players are welcome to these preferences, and I will never ever argue against their right to have these desires. I said earlier that these preferences are irrelevant because they cannot be debated. They are 100% subjective. I just don't think these players should be immune to wardecs. Wardecs have as much power to force participation as any other aspect of the game - which is to say wardecs can't force you to participate at all. In the sandbox, you can use a variety of methods to deny kills and deny content (hint: docking up is only one such way. There are hundreds). No player can be forced to PVP through a wardec. Hence, the removal of wardec immunity is not a challenge to any playstyle or player preference in the sandbox. How can you force a player to do anything at all? It is not possible, you know.. free will, human ingenuity, and all that.
You know as well as I do that if NPC corps were capable of being wardecced, pretty much everyone would keep them perma-decked.
You literally would not be able to undock...
So much for the new player experience...
Doubt anyone is gonna take a 1 hour old. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
775
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:08:05 -
[1144] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Wow, I don't have a very high opinion of what you usually post, but this makes a lot of sense. (I am drunk right now so that may be the reason) I think the restrictions should not include the low null sec parts though and as this is a somewhat considerable nerf to NPC corps I might also argue it should be restricted to the allied factions instead of your faction only and you can go to the opposite factions space but Fac Po will enage like you have terrible standings.
The point behind not being able to go into low sec is to keep players from doing low roams all the time, without taking the risks of potentially being war decced for their actions.
As far as the limitations to faction territory, I suggested this limitation more specifically for casuals and traders.
You're allowed to be casual, but you're not gonna be able to move around very much. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25189
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:21:28 -
[1145] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:You know as well as I do that if NPC corps were capable of being wardecced, pretty much everyone would keep them perma-decked.
You literally would not be able to undock...
So much for the new player experience...
Doubt anyone is gonna take a 1 hour old.
There are 28 NPC Corps. Given the size of each, the fee to wardec each would be 500M ISK. Are you saying "pretty much everyone" is going to be sinking 14B ISK a week to do this?
Really?
Even if they did, players would abandon NPC Corps. Mission accomplished.
Also, I said this:
Sibyyl wrote:I'm sure a system of payment and immunity for players <30 days in age can be worked out with no problems whatsoever.
New player experience problem solved.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
776
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:25:33 -
[1146] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:You know as well as I do that if NPC corps were capable of being wardecced, pretty much everyone would keep them perma-decked.
You literally would not be able to undock...
So much for the new player experience...
Doubt anyone is gonna take a 1 hour old. There are 28 NPC Corps. Given the size of each, the fee to wardec each would be 500M ISK. Are you saying "pretty much everyone" is going to be sinking 14B ISK a week to do this? Really? Even if they did, players would abandon NPC Corps. Mission accomplished. Also, I said this: Sibyyl wrote:I'm sure a system of payment and immunity for players <30 days in age can be worked out with no problems whatsoever. New player experience problem solved.
ok...
So, i'll give you a more logical answer.
No... It's idiotic and potentially game breaking to allow NPC corps to be war decced.
It punishes players for swapping corps and/or getting kicked from corps because they're too inexperienced, or someone on a power trip decided to rage drop some people over a hot drop. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1493
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:29:20 -
[1147] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The argument you are making now is that the affected players made the wrong choice somehow and need to be forcibly corrected because someone else knows what their game play time should be spent doing better than they do. Actually my argument is very stark. I have nothing to say about all of the 1,000 reasons that people have for staying in NPC Corps. I am perfectly fine with those justifications, those players are welcome to these preferences, and I will never ever argue against their right to have these desires. I said earlier that these preferences are irrelevant because they cannot be debated. They are 100% subjective. I just don't think these players should be immune to wardecs. Wardecs have as much power to force participation as any other aspect of the game - which is to say wardecs can't force you to participate at all. In the sandbox, you can use a variety of methods to deny kills and deny content (hint: docking up is only one such way. There are hundreds). No player can be forced to PVP through a wardec. Hence, the removal of wardec immunity is not a challenge to any playstyle or player preference in the sandbox. How can you force a player to do anything at all? It is not possible, you know.. free will, human ingenuity, and all that.
To be fair you can force someone to deal with the wardec mechanic in one way or another by declaring war on them. You can't control what that method of dealing entails true, but the act of being in a war is pretty strait forward as are the implications.
Mechanically speaking it has implications to any and all in space activities as well so I'm not sure how to interpret the claim that it's not a challenge to any playstyle. Any response to a wardec is a change in playstyle and participation to some degree. Participation isn't limited to simply fighting back.
Your ideas surrounding of player preference is also interesting. The type of player to be affected by a wardec is a highsec or lowsec player. In the case of highsec I would think the defending player chose to reside their in no small part due to the deterrent effect of Concord response. I'd also be willing to wager they want that to be universal save for individuals they have specifically chosen. Wardecs remove that mechanic for a group most likely NOT of the players preference.
That's on top of preference in area of operation, toolsets, activities or even the choice to log in or undock. One is forced to chose between relinquishing one of the prior or being forcibly removed from their ships.
If there were no aspects contrary to preference far fewer players would be in an NPC corp I would imagine. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25189
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:33:31 -
[1148] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:No... It's idiotic
Sure. Tell me how you really feel
I was procrastinating changing the brakes on a truck.. for losing what I think is the "feel" for it (for lack of a better word), not having done it in a while. I'm going to stop using posting an excuse and get to it.
Maybe this debate has no end, like all debates of its kind.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 04:54:57 -
[1149] - Quote
Players don't begin the game with a lifetime of knowledge about the Eve universe and the various groups within it, they have a limited amount of time to come to terms with their existence
New Player
The Eagles have a lot to answer for but game play in NPC corps becomes a bit stagnant so we must try to get them into player corps or maybe we should just make the NPC corps a bit more interesting ?
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8679
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 05:01:32 -
[1150] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the sudden loss of a significant portion of the player base is a pretty good justification for keeping immunity.
It wasn't a good enough justification for the ISBotters. They can't hold the game hostage by threatening to withdraw their subs anymore, and CCP standing up to that selfish, petty tyranny is a good thing.
Yeah. And don't forget the Awoxers either, Kaarous.
Whooie! Did they ever throw a fit. But y'all are still here after declaring your hate for the game that CCP destroyed with balance. None of you left. CCP didn't cave to your pathetic cries of falling skies and mass unsubs. No, you just moved to the next most risk averse PVP you could find. Like the ISBoxers are still here. Still multiboxing. Just adapted.
There's one thing that everyone has in common in this game. From the fluffiest carebear to the most heartless alliance leader, they all fill the forum with anger, threats and tears when it's their EVE that CCP is looking to fix.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
|
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Nevil Oscillator
190
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 05:44:15 -
[1151] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the sudden loss of a significant portion of the player base is a pretty good justification for keeping immunity.
It wasn't a good enough justification for the ISBotters. They can't hold the game hostage by threatening to withdraw their subs anymore, and CCP standing up to that selfish, petty tyranny is a good thing. Yeah. And don't forget the Awoxers either, Kaarous. Whooie! Did they ever throw a fit. But y'all are still here after declaring your hate for the game that CCP destroyed with balance. None of you left. CCP didn't cave to your pathetic cries of falling skies and mass unsubs. No, you just moved to the next most risk averse PVP you could find. Like the ISBoxers are still here. Still multiboxing. Just adapted. There's one thing that everyone has in common in this game. From the fluffiest carebear to the most heartless alliance leader, they all fill the forum with anger, threats and tears when it's their EVE that CCP is looking to fix. Mr Epeen
I can't believe you said that , I shall report you, you are a troll, does it sound anything like that ? |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1049
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 06:15:30 -
[1152] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Got a solid Idea everyone should consider.
If you're in an NPC corp, then you're limited to the territory of that Faction.
IE - if you're in a Gallente corp, you're limited to Gallente high sec.
This does many things.
Casuals can keep war dec immunity while forcing people that take full advantage of the system out.
Want a hauler for cross faction trading, or even delivering goods to low/null/wh space? Join a corp.
Want to move out of Gallente space? Join a corp.
Want to do low sec roams? Join a corp.
A casual that is just mining or missioning is not really the major problem.
The problem is those that use war dec immunity for safe travel in support of other corps or engage in PVP activity but use the security of NPC corps to avoid being locked into a war. Interesting idea worth fleshing out. This would have little impact on those using NPC corps because they are new, casual, or rebuilding some ISK while between gigs as they can easily do that in a single region or two, but it would put a serious crimp on veterans exploiting NPC corps for free safety.
It would be interesting for the economy too as haulers could still use NPC corps, but would have to switch out cargo at "depots" which would organically spring up on the borders of the empires. This likely might also have the effect of decentralizing trade from Jita a bit, and increase the economic activity at these border systems, at least for common trade goods.
The first problem I see is that friends that join the game together might end up on opposite sides and unable to play together but this is a problem common to many MMOs and could be mitigated by allowing players to switch NPC corps and "defect" to another empire's NPC corp with some time interval.
This is something CCP should consider when the "Empire's are losing their grip" storyline gets advanced sometime in the future.
|
La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
233
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 06:32:47 -
[1153] - Quote
How pathetic and ignorant:
"why do players stay in npc corps"
Easy:
"Because they can"
And
"There is no compelling reason to do otherwise"
Some (many) online gamers like to play with other players, but the amount of how much they want to interact with other players is different.
Wardecs and Stuff are not the major problem:
They could join something like something from CFC or EvE University. There still are Newbie friendly corps, if the players wanted, they could join them. But some want learn to swim alone.
Just for the joy of learning alone
and
being independent
Like many of EvE flaws, some gamemechanics are heavily (ab)used to **** of smaller entities.
"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
Forum Main
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
249
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 07:05:27 -
[1154] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_&t=967
Thank you. Was that really so hard?
It might help to explain my overall objective (currently):
Firstly, CCP Rise talks in the video about player expectations, about matching the game to fit player expectations, but also about managing player expectations. Well, in this thread, there are some people who seem to have some misaligned expectations, you and Kaarous are two such people. It seems that, perhaps, it is that you use most games and maybe most things in life as if they were passive objects, toys. You seem to expect that people on the forums and maybe in-game are supposed to just accept your terms of use. This is just my honest assessment of what I think your problem is. I could be wrong. Either way, part of what I am trying to do is to realign your expectation to an understanding that, sometimes, some toys passively accept use and abuse on whatever terms you choose, but sometimes, some toys blow up in your face when you don't use them "the right way". If you learn to think this way, it will be easier for you to accept new players into the game, not just as toys to play with and break, not just as live prey, not just as content, but as your fellow competitors, worthy of your respect.
Second, at the end of the talk, the very first question asked by the audience was about new players being diverted from the desired NPE by other players. (Some dude got ganked doing a tutorial; I think.) CCP Rise mentioned more circumstances under which a new player might not be able to get back on track. From my perspective, recruiting new players from the starter corp too early is exactly such a circumstance. The NPC starter corps are mechanisms that CCP deliberately put into the game. If you look at how they function, they serve to put players together with other players. Similarly, the local channel serves to put players together, not just physically, but socially. People going into NPC corps to disparage them, to recruit new players to be cannon fodder or victims or sheeple, these are instances of more entrenched EVE players diverting new players from the desired NPE. In wormholes, many times in null, corporation leadership will discourage their corporation members from talking in local. Again, this is a diversion, not from the intended NEW player experience, per se, but from the intended player experience, generally. Some people have argued that NPC corps should even cease to exist, which would literally divert every new player, going foward, from a part of the intended NPE as it currently stands.
So, I'm here to try to protect what I think is a useful part of the NPE as it currently stands and I'm also here to teach you to stop trying to break it.
Scipio Artellius wrote:That was just the start of the information CCP have released/mentioned in the last 18 months and yes, a desire to see more players move to player-run Corps has been amongst that.
This was not in the video you linked. (Both of your links point to the same exact thing, BTW.) If you have any more data or such a statement from CCP, please link it.
What is said in the video is that players who have "rich" experiences, such as joining player corporations (more often), tend to have of a more lasting relationship with the game. It did not say that player corporation participation was indicative of players having more "rich" experiences. You are claiming activity 'x' leads to activities 'y', and 'z', and thus outcome 'n'. The video claims that activities 'x', 'y', and 'z' indicate a greater likelihood of outcome 'n'. The video does not say why players are more likely to engage in activities such as 'x', 'y', or 'z'. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37696
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 09:18:40 -
[1155] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Scipio Artellius wrote:https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_&t=967 Thank you. Was that really so hard?
When you are being a dickhead and discussing the people rather than the topic. Yes.
You want the data, go look for it youself.
As usual, those statements about me are completely wrong. You have absolutely no idea what my expectations are. I haven't stated them once. Only tried to help fill in the back information on what CCP have said. Nothing more.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37696
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 09:36:39 -
[1156] - Quote
.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
249
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 10:09:49 -
[1157] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:When you discuss the people rather than the topic. Yes. It doesn't motivate me to point you to any of the data at all.
The topic is NPC corporation members and their motivations for staying in NPC corporations, i.e. the topic IS people, primarily.
Scipio Artellius wrote:You want the data, go look for it yourself, just like the rest of us have. It isn't hard to find.
There is no data that says more players quit EVE because NPC corporations exist.
Scipio Artellius wrote:As usual, those statements about me are completely wrong. You have absolutely no idea what my expectations are. I haven't stated them once. Only tried to help fill in the back information on what CCP have said. Nothing more.
If my assertions about you are wrong, correct them. Otherwise, understand that telling us anything at all illuminates your paradigm. Whether you want to or not, telling us things also tells us about YOU.
Far from just telling us facts, you are narrating, which tells us even more about what you believe and what you want US to believe. As you can see just from the one video you linked, CCP has very intelligent and articulate people who can speak for them. They don't need you or me to do that for them.
For my part, I'm meta-narrating your narration as a method of nullifying it. |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
1136
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 10:24:05 -
[1158] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Wow, I don't have a very high opinion of what you usually post, but this makes a lot of sense. (I am drunk right now so that may be the reason) I think the restrictions should not include the low null sec parts though and as this is a somewhat considerable nerf to NPC corps I might also argue it should be restricted to the allied factions instead of your faction only and you can go to the opposite factions space but Fac Po will enage like you have terrible standings.
The point behind not being able to go into low sec is to keep players from doing low roams all the time, without taking the risks of potentially being war decced for their actions. As far as the limitations to faction territory, I suggested this limitation more specifically for casuals and traders. You're allowed to be casual, but you're not gonna be able to move around very much.
I always felt the NPC corps as they stood should have been a progression of Newbie Corp -> NPC Corp -> Faction Warfare Corp, with a visible mechanics slide as you go from one to the next. At present, the NPC and Newbie corps are functionally indistinguishable, with a massive leap in to Faction Warfare. Really, the Newbie Corp should be kept as-is, with some time restriction before you are nudged out the door in to the NPC corp (or opportunity or tutorial-based, or even time-in-game or sp cut-off, so that anyone actively playing gets the boot in to the NPC corp, but a trial player doesn't come back after two years hiatus to find they've been ejected despite never leaving the system they started in), and at that point, "NPC politics" similar to how you are describing come in to effect, a sort of Faction Warfare light. I say this as someone gleefully exploiting the current setup to the max; my 5-year-old hauler alt is still in the Newbie Caldari Corp, and I have no intention for her ever to leave it.
|
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1049
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 10:34:21 -
[1159] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
There is no data that says more players quit EVE because NPC corporations exist.
Perhaps not, but CCP has data that more new players quit Eve if they remain in NPC corporations.
CCP Rise wrote:We have tried and tried to validate the myth that griefing has a pronounced affect on new players - we have failed. The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish. Finding out why new players don't leave the NPC corp, and changing the game to encourage them to do so seems a perfectly valid strategy for CCP to increase player retention. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37702
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 11:32:30 -
[1160] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:The topic is NPC corporation members and their motivations for staying in NPC corporations, i.e. the topic IS people, primarily.
When you discuss the poster rather than the post.
That should make it clear enough.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
|
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37716
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 11:33:51 -
[1161] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:The topic is NPC corporation members and their motivations for staying in NPC corporations, i.e. the topic IS people, primarily.
When you discuss the poster rather than the post.
That should make it clear enough.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:There is no data that says more players quit EVE because NPC corporations exist.
Of course not. That would be a pretty silly thing to say since it makes no logical sense.
In fact, that's the first time that's been written in the entire thread. It's completely made up with no evidence to support it and not what anyone in this thread or any other thread has claimed.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
776
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 13:32:22 -
[1162] - Quote
That's kind of a "What came first, the chicken or the egg" conversation.
Is it that Newbros that stay in NPC corps are more likely to quit?
Or is it that newbros, that are likely to quit, stay in NPC corps?
The data is inherently flawed.
If every new player is put into an NPC corp, and all the ones that stay in the NPC corp quit, it doesn't mean the issue is with the NPC corp.
There's no point in joining a player corp if you don't like the skill training time, don't like the learning curve, don't like the difficulty, or don't like the PVP interaction.
Everyone keeps equating the problem as the NPC corp.
Yes, the NPC corp is the common denominator in most cases.
However, that's like saying many people die due to their a$$hole.
Just because we share a common traight, that doesn't make it the cause. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1052
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 13:53:55 -
[1163] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:The data is inherently flawed. The data are not inherently flawed - the data are just the data.
It is a fact that new players who leave the NPC corps have a higher rate of subscribing to the game. Looking at this, and the multitude of other data points CCP has in their databases, they have come to the reasonable conclusion that the social interactions afforded by being in a player corporation may have something to do with the higher retention rate of these players.
You are entitled to disagree with this conclusion and stamp your feet shouting "correlation does not equal causation" like a first-year philosophy major if you'd like, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And if you are going to ask me to choose whose hypothesis to believe: CCP Rise and his team who have direct access to the detailed histories of hundreds of thousands of players and whose jobs are to increase player retention, and thus the long-term success of the game, or someone who willing to dismiss data because they don't fit his per-conceived narrative, I know who I am going to stand with.
Certainly it cannot hurt to try to guide players out of the isolating environment of the NPC corp and into the more social one of a player corp can it?
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Crest Zah Donartal
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 14:16:07 -
[1164] - Quote
What does it mean, "associated with social activity"?
As i know, has, "using market and contract systems", nothing to do with staying in NPC or joining PC.
Self PvP activities are not a monopol of PC.
Eve is more than just a dull shooter and i'm just happy about!
there are so many things to do, so many ways to play it.
To the question why they leave the game, i should respond, they just do not have the patience that is needed in EVE.
They jump from game to game, they want to reach "endgame" in few weeks...
Starting with EVE is as if you are standing in front of a large wall, in this wall is a door, you open it and you see a dark space.
In this space you have no path to follow (and i think alot newbies miss it) and you have to find you way alone.
EVE will ever stay a "niche game"
EVE is not a game you play for short time...thats the problem (Please don't change it)
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
777
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 14:26:10 -
[1165] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:The data is inherently flawed. The data are not inherently flawed - the data are just the data. It is a fact that new players who leave the NPC corps have a higher rate of subscribing to the game. Looking at this, and the multitude of other data points CCP has in their databases, they have come to the reasonable conclusion that the social interactions afforded by being in a player corporation may have something to do with the higher retention rate of these players. You are entitled to disagree with this conclusion and stamp your feet shouting "correlation does not equal causation" like a first-year philosophy major if you'd like, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And if you are going to ask me to choose whose hypothesis to believe: CCP Rise and his team who have direct access to the detailed histories of hundreds of thousands of players and whose jobs are to increase player retention, and thus the long-term success of the game, or someone who willing to dismiss data because they don't fit his per-conceived narrative, I know who I am going to stand with. Certainly it cannot hurt to try to guide players out of the isolating environment of the NPC corp and into the more social one of a player corp can it?
I have not given my perceived narrative Nor does it disagree with player interaction being important.
Yes, newbros are more likely to stick around if they experience more player interaction.
This DOES NOT mean they will quit because they stayed in an NPC corp.
And while "correlation Is not causation" may be year one philosophy, the chicken and the egg question is famous because therehas not been correct or wrong answer (though I do know the true answer.)
So, which is correct; newbs in NPC corps quit, or NPC corps cause newbs to quit? |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
440
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 14:47:13 -
[1166] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Everyone keeps equating the problem as the NPC corp.
Not everyone, but those who insist on that follow an agenda ... they want to have more easy prey in highsec to shoot. NPC corp players are always protected by Concord, which disrupts their "business".
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 14:50:04 -
[1167] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:The data is inherently flawed. The data are not inherently flawed - the data are just the data. It is a fact that new players who leave the NPC corps have a higher rate of subscribing to the game. Looking at this, and the multitude of other data points CCP has in their databases, they have come to the reasonable conclusion that the social interactions afforded by being in a player corporation may have something to do with the higher retention rate of these players. You are entitled to disagree with this conclusion and stamp your feet shouting "correlation does not equal causation" like a first-year philosophy major if you'd like, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And if you are going to ask me to choose whose hypothesis to believe: CCP Rise and his team who have direct access to the detailed histories of hundreds of thousands of players and whose jobs are to increase player retention, and thus the long-term success of the game, or someone who willing to dismiss data because they don't fit his per-conceived narrative, I know who I am going to stand with. Certainly it cannot hurt to try to guide players out of the isolating environment of the NPC corp and into the more social one of a player corp can it? I have not given my perceived narrative Nor does it disagree with player interaction being important. Yes, newbros are more likely to stick around if they experience more player interaction. This DOES NOT mean they will quit because they stayed in an NPC corp. And while "correlation Is not causation" may be year one philosophy, the chicken and the egg question is famous because therehas not been correct or wrong answer (though I do know the true answer.) So, which is correct; newbs in NPC corps quit, or NPC corps cause newbs to quit? The question is irrelevant.
New Players are mostly isolated in npc corps, unless it's CAS. If that wasn't true, CCP wouldn't want people to leave them for player corps. What came first is irrelevant when looking at what currently is. It's just sidetracking from the fact that too many people play isolated and how the npc corps except CAS do their good part in that.
Your question does not bring progress.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
777
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 15:01:08 -
[1168] - Quote
Solstice Punk wrote:The question is irrelevant.
New Players are mostly isolated in npc corps, unless it's CAS. If that wasn't true, CCP wouldn't want people to leave them for player corps. What came first is irrelevant when looking at what currently is. It's just sidetracking from the fact that too many people play isolated and how the npc corps except CAS do their good part in that.
Your question does not bring progress.
The question is not irrelevant.
You can't give an answer when you don't know the question.
determining if players quit specifically due to lack of training and/or social interaction while in NPC corps,'is the issue.
Or, if it's something else, is very important to determining a solution.
You can make NPC corps war targets, you can remove them from game, or whatever else you want to do to them, but if that is not the cause of the issue, you're only making things worse. |
Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
17
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 15:15:48 -
[1169] - Quote
I feel like you don't believe in what CCP says and you never went through npc corps to check out the situation for yourself. Your question has no rlevance and is actually answered already.
NPC corps do not provide the environment needed to keep players,
as shown by CCP wanting to get people out of them.
The only exceptions are CAS/Scope. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1052
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 15:23:26 -
[1170] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Yes, newbros are more likely to stick around if they experience more player interaction.
This DOES NOT mean they will quit because they stayed in an NPC corp.
And while "correlation Is not causation" may be year one philosophy, the chicken and the egg question is famous because therehas not been correct or wrong answer (though I do know the true answer.)
So, which is correct; newbs in NPC corps quit, or NPC corps cause newbs to quit?
The data says that new players in NPC corps quit at a higher rate than those that leave for a player corp.
That correlation, amongst other data, has lead CCP to postulate that the increased social contacts of a player corp retain players in the game better than the isolation of the NPC corp. That is a perfectly reasonable conclusion so why is that notion so difficult for you to accept that you are jumping through all these mental gymnastics to try to explain that obvious reason away? Sure, that is not absolute proof that joining player corps is the sole cause of that retention, nor does it show that CCP could move a significant number of these players that would quit into player corps even if they tried, but it is strong evidence supporting the view of CCP that social contacts keep people in the game.
Why are you against tweaks to the game that increase social contacts? You can just ignore them and go about your business as usual, but changes designed to get more players to subscribe after the trial are good for everyone and this data suggests one way may be through getting them in player corps. Why shouldn't CCP try to get more new players into player corps as part of an effort to increase player retention? Just because you like playing the game solo in an NPC corp?
Quit being so selfish. |
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
778
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 15:41:07 -
[1171] - Quote
Solstice Punk wrote:I feel like you don't believe in what CCP says and you never went through npc corps to check out the situation for yourself. Your question has no rlevance and is actually answered already.
NPC corps do not provide the environment needed to keep players,
as shown by CCP wanting to get people out of them.
The only exceptions are CAS/Scope.
I believe what CCP says, but do not believe the NPC corps are the issue.
Fact is there's several issues that are not the fault of NPC corps.
1) barrier - this essentially combines all newb barriers. Efficiency in piloting, Isk, training, skills. Basically, many new players are used to games that make you feel powerful from the start and require little time and/or investment to reach higher levels of capability/content.
This one is as intended. Catering to these types of players would break the game quite significanltly.
Though, I would argue that training can be addressed and in doing so, it may address other issues.
2) Content - there's not a lot of content that can be done by newbros that isn't gendered by the barriers. More specifically the Isk and skills barriers. This is also a limitation to player interaction. A corp can take on new players all day long, but it doesn't provide the newbros with any activities.
To address this, CCP should add low level, group, content, and can expand on this for higher end group content.
What I mean by this is, perhaps provide fleet missions, or the NPC count increases, the more players you bring.
So, you can take a fleet into lvl 1 missions, with logo frigs, and it would be entertaining for vets and engaging for newbros.
All of barrier challenges can be broken down into sub categories and likely should, as they're all very different and very important.
I simply chose to combine them for the sake of keeping the post as short as possible.
However, I think the introduction of more group content could address many of the barrier issues.
Providing fleet content that doesn't require players to PVP, or travel the galaxy scanning and/or looking for incursions could be quite helpful.
Corps will be more likely to take on newbros and assist them if the content is engaging and supportive of fleet activity.
More so, newbros will be more likely to join player corps if they know and/or are influenced that they will be part of the group.
As it stands now, when a newbro joins a player corp, the only thing he will likely get out of it is contact who potentially have knowledge that can help him. As far as involvement with the corp, the best they can generally get is mining fleets.
Sure, the corp can fleet run missions, but with the current design of missions, this would likely be more of a hinderance than anything. Rewards are less, standing increase is less, and much more. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1591
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 15:41:08 -
[1172] - Quote
Solstice Punk wrote:I feel like you don't believe in what CCP says and you never went through npc corps to check out the situation for yourself. Your question has no rlevance and is actually answered already.
NPC corps do not provide the environment needed to keep players,
as shown by CCP wanting to get people out of them.
The only exceptions are CAS/Scope.
The retention question is within the first 30 days only. That doesn't mean that NPC corps are the problem. Your exceptions point to the actual problem, which is a lack of engagement combined with a lack of good hooks. There are plenty of essentially AFK/idle corps that are no better than most NPC corps and worse than some. You already know this, so I'm not sure why you're fixated on NPC corps.
So you can turn the question around and say, how can we make the other NPC corps more like The Scope and CAS? When you look at the question that way, then you reveal a second problem, which is: what, exactly, is the point of a high-sec corp? This thread is full of ways to make NPC corps worse, but that doesn't make player corps better, so if implemented they would just make the overall game worse. How can we improve the overall game? Right now, in-game, a corp is no more substantial than the thousands of shell corps spun off by Enron back in the day. For example: how could the ability to end up in a war become a feature, or at least a price that's worth paying?
I'm asking because I just checked, and Dersen's fallback NPC corp is The Scope. Some of the posts in this thread are making me think that dropping back to that corp sounds pretty nice. I don't care about the tax if there are cool people doing fun things.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
249
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 15:48:29 -
[1173] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:It is a fact that new players who leave the NPC corps have a higher rate of subscribing to the game.
It is also a fact that over 99% of characters who subscribe to EVE have spent time in an NPC corporation. How much do you want to bet that CCP has data that says that players that have undocked are 99% more likely to subscribe and stick with the game than players who don't? So, should we eliminate stations from the game?
Black Pedro wrote:. . . [CCP] have come to the reasonable conclusion that . . . being in a player corporation may have something to do with the higher retention rate of these players.
Solstice Punk wrote:I feel like you don't believe in what CCP says . . . NPC corps do not provide the environment needed to keep players, as shown by CCP wanting to get people out of them.
That is entirely possible, but we're not going to take YOUR word for it. Direct us to where they actually say that or people are just going to think you're making **** up to further your agenda. (Which you probably are.)
Also, I don't know why you are harping on players in NPC corporations being isolated. Obviously a corporation channel with hundreds of people in it isn't an "isolated" experience. There's a person behind each of those characters. If they choose not to communicate, that's their choice, not CCP's. They probably aren't talking in local, either. Should we nerf that, too?
You can't MAKE people interact. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
779
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 16:04:12 -
[1174] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Yes, newbros are more likely to stick around if they experience more player interaction.
This DOES NOT mean they will quit because they stayed in an NPC corp.
And while "correlation Is not causation" may be year one philosophy, the chicken and the egg question is famous because therehas not been correct or wrong answer (though I do know the true answer.)
So, which is correct; newbs in NPC corps quit, or NPC corps cause newbs to quit? The data says that new players in NPC corps quit at a higher rate than those that leave for a player corp. That correlation, amongst other data, has lead CCP to postulate that the increased social contacts of a player corp retain players in the game better than the isolation of the NPC corp. That is a perfectly reasonable conclusion so why is that notion so difficult for you to accept that you are jumping through all these mental gymnastics to try to explain that obvious reason away? Sure, that is not absolute proof that joining player corps is the sole cause of that retention, nor does it show that CCP could move a significant number of these players that would quit into player corps even if they tried, but it is strong evidence supporting the view of CCP that social contacts keep people in the game. Why are you against tweaks to the game that increase social contacts? You can just ignore them and go about your business as usual, but changes designed to get more players to subscribe after the trial are good for everyone and this data suggests one way may be through getting them in player corps. Why shouldn't CCP try to get more new players into player corps as part of an effort to increase player retention? Just because you like playing the game solo in an NPC corp? Quit being so selfish.
Of course that's what the data shows!!
I'm not arguing that the data is wrong, I'm arguing that the conclusion is wrong.
Let's put this into perspective.
If you try to play a new MMO and don't like it, are you going to join a player corp/alliance?
Probably not....
So why are you using the data to assume that the NPC corp is the issue?
Is it better to assume that player in NPC corps are more likely to quit, or is that players that intend to stick around are more likely to join player corps?
No one bothers to look at the other factors, but instead blame it on the NPC corp itself.
1) many players drop to NPC corps when they intend to quit.
2) lack of activity will get you kicked out of player corps, which makes it looks as though you quit while in an NPC corp, when you actually quit while in a player corp.
3) players who do not like the game are more likely to NOT join a player corp.
4) High sec alts are typically kept in NPC corps. If the player quits or can no longer afford to support that account, it is not considered.
5) Many player create an trial account to use for observation, with no intent to carry the account past the trial stage.
There are likely many other aspects that could effect this data.
However, my main point over all is that you will not be able to increase retention by putting higher taxes on NPC corps or allowing them to be war decced.
The solutions to retention need to handled from outside the NPC corp. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1055
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 16:08:52 -
[1175] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:It is also a fact that over 99% of characters who subscribe to EVE have spent time in an NPC corporation. How much do you want to bet that CCP has data that says that players that have undocked are 99% more likely to subscribe and stick with the game than players who don't? So, should we eliminate stations from the game? I bet players that undock are more likely to subscribe to the game. If some new players are unable to find the undock button for some reason, shouldn't CCP change the game so that it is easier for them to actually undock and thus move themselves into "those that undock" cohort which has a higher percent chance of subscribing to the game?
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:That is entirely possible, but we're not going to take YOUR word for it. Direct us to where they actually say that or people are just going to think you're making **** up to further your agenda. (Which you probably are.)
I just linked a post to this effect earlier today. You can also watch CCP Rise's talk from Fanfest on using science to increase player retention. Why are people on these forums so untrusting?
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Also, I don't know why you are harping on players in NPC corporations being isolated. Obviously a corporation channel with hundreds of people in it isn't an "isolated" experience. There's a person behind each of those characters. If they choose not to communicate, that's their choice, not CCP's. They probably aren't talking in local, either. Should we nerf that, too? Just because you don't feel isolated in a NPC corporation does not mean that it is not an isolating experience for every new player. Certainly, the data say that players who make it into a player corporation and engage in other social activities are more likely to stay with the game. Why is that notion so difficult for you to accept?
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1055
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 16:15:29 -
[1176] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:However, my main point over all is that you will not be able to increase retention by putting higher taxes on NPC corps or allowing them to be war decced.
The solutions to retention need to handled from outside the NPC corp.
The data suggest otherwise. New players that lose a ship to a wardec (or get ganked) during the trial are more likely to subscribe to the game than those that pass the trial uneventfully (AKA in boredom). You can read a colourful summary of that data and CCP Rise's discussion of it here on minerbumping.com .
You gotta love science.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
779
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 16:28:49 -
[1177] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:It is also a fact that over 99% of characters who subscribe to EVE have spent time in an NPC corporation. How much do you want to bet that CCP has data that says that players that have undocked are 99% more likely to subscribe and stick with the game than players who don't? So, should we eliminate stations from the game? I bet players that undock are more likely to subscribe to the game. If some new players are unable to find the undock button for some reason, shouldn't CCP change the game so that it is easier for them to actually undock and thus move themselves into "those that undock" cohort which has a higher percent chance of subscribing to the game? Mayhaw Morgan wrote:That is entirely possible, but we're not going to take YOUR word for it. Direct us to where they actually say that or people are just going to think you're making **** up to further your agenda. (Which you probably are.) I just linked a post to this effect earlier today. You can also watch CCP Rise's talk from Fanfest on using science to increase player retention. Why are people on these forums so untrusting? Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Also, I don't know why you are harping on players in NPC corporations being isolated. Obviously a corporation channel with hundreds of people in it isn't an "isolated" experience. There's a person behind each of those characters. If they choose not to communicate, that's their choice, not CCP's. They probably aren't talking in local, either. Should we nerf that, too? Just because you don't feel isolated in a NPC corporation does not mean that it is not an isolating experience for every new player. Certainly, the data say that players who make it into a player corporation and engage in other social activities are more likely to stay with the game. Why is that notion so difficult for you to accept?
You keep leading back to the comment by CCP Rise, but fail to realize that his comment does not state that NPC corps are the issue.
All his comment does is state what the data shows, but doesn't take any other factors into account.
Of course players that get involved in group activities are more likely stick around.
Those people were more likely to stick around regardless, that's why they joined a player corp.
Sure, player interaction likely has some factor into whether a player sticks around or not, but you're putting is out as if CCP Rise is saying that interaction is the be all end all of retention.
This is not the case.
CCP Rise is solely stating what the data shows, and is taking no other factors into consideration, such as the player that quit just didn't like the game long before social interaction was even considered. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
779
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 16:36:28 -
[1178] - Quote
Lol, again, coralation not causation.
Quit pandering.
Data does not factor the player directly.
The player themselves is indeterminable factor.
Does the data show the mindset of the player that was ganked?
Does the data show how many of those ganked and/or war decced players were alt accounts and/or players with friends on Eve that we're keeping them going?
Does the data show how many of those that quit after not being war decced or ganked were trial accounts created for the sole purpose of observation, with no intent on subscribing that account?
You keep relying on this data as if it has no flaws.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
176
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 18:49:56 -
[1179] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Yes, newbros are more likely to stick around if they experience more player interaction.
This DOES NOT mean they will quit because they stayed in an NPC corp.
And while "correlation Is not causation" may be year one philosophy, the chicken and the egg question is famous because there has not been correct or wrong answer (though I do know the true answer.)
So, which is correct; newbs in NPC corps quit, or NPC corps cause newbs to quit? The data says that new players in NPC corps quit at a higher rate than those that leave for a player corp. That correlation, amongst other data, has lead CCP to postulate that the increased social contacts of a player corp retain players in the game better than the isolation of the NPC corp. That is a perfectly reasonable conclusion
Actually... I think that's potentially an inaccurate conclusion. My take-away from the data is that starter corp membership is a result of no player engagement, not a cause of it. You must remember, the data as presented by CCP Rise only looked at players who have played for 30 days or fewer. If new players, upon character creation, were put into their own corp, the data would then show that single-player corps had the lowest newbie retention rates. If new players, upon character creation, were put into larger alliances like PL or GSF, the data would then show that PL and GSF had the lowest newbie retention rates.
The data which shows that ganked newbies are more likely to be retained as subscribers even supports this. It's impossible to be ganked while sitting in station, or while not even logged on. The ganked newbies are out doing things in New Eden. That's a level of engagement way beyond the new player who creates an account, downloads the client, then spends five minutes looking at Aurora before logging off and never returning.
Quote:it is strong evidence supporting the view of CCP that social contacts keep people in the game.
I definitely agree with that. I just totally disagree with the notion that being in an NPC corp implies a lack of social contacts.
Quote:Why are you against tweaks to the game that increase social contacts?
I know you weren't asking me that question, but I'll answer - I'm not against it. I'm totally for it. I've contributed many posts to the "social corps" thread in the interests of increased social contacts. I'm against, however, forcing players to move into a player corp (or incenting them to do so by placing restrictions on NPC corps.)
Quote:You can just ignore them and go about your business as usual, but changes designed to get more players to subscribe after the trial are good for everyone and this data suggests one way may be through getting them in player corps.
Why shouldn't CCP try to get more new players into player corps as part of an effort to increase player retention? Just because you like playing the game solo in an NPC corp?
This is speculation of course, but I think that might do nothing at best, and possibly even backfire at worst. #1 Consider the player who signs up for a trial, but then never does anything in the game - doesn't use the market, doesn't undock, doesn't use contracts, doesn't PvP. Anything done to corps has zero effect on such players. Somehow, the NPE needs to draw them in. #2 Next, consider the player who signs up while already knowing people in game - possibly through reddit or SA or IRL friends. Adjustments to corps won't have any effect on them either because they already have established social ties and a group to play with/against. #3 Next, consider the lone new player who doesn't know anybody in the game but is very social naturally. They chat, they interact, they look for groups to connect with. They already are on the road to making social connections, and changes to NPC and player corps won't improve that. #4 Finally, consider the lone player who tries out EVE, doesn't know anybody else who plays it, and is relatively shy. (This is the category I was in.) This person flies around, mines, missions, maybe gets ganked or wonders into low and is blown up - but they don't know anybody, and for some of us, creating new social ties isn't a flippant matter, it's a grave decision that needs contemplation to ease in to. Force me, personally, to choose a player corp to join within 30 days of starting EVE, and I'd just quit instead. But what really happened is I slowly learned of the activities CAS members do, decided to get a jumpclone to move across the map quickly (I had some very na+»ve notions of what I wanted to do in EVE when I first joined) and as part of the JC session was invited into nullsec. I decided to give it a try as it didn't involve any commitmet, and once in the nullsec base, in fleet, on comms, I was totally hooked and jumped in to it wholeheartedly. Over next week I utilized my ISK from mining to move 30 frigates to the base, and never looked back. CAS is a unique collection of players however, so not everybody beginning EVE in a starter corp is exposed to such a social group - which is why I really like the idea of the social groups being discussed in a different thread, so that less socially inclined players can ease into it and eventually forge those ties that keep us coming back to EVE.
In my mind, forcing/incenting people into player corps will do nothing for three kinds of players, and will actually drive away a fourth kind. Therefore I consider it a bad idea for the health of the game.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13189
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 19:33:22 -
[1180] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
You keep relying on this data as if it has no flaws.
The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth that it presents.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:32:50 -
[1181] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You keep relying on this data as if it has no flaws.
The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth that it presents.
You are naive...
The data presented by CCP Rise only states a very specific point.
Players who engage in communal actives are more likely to stick around.
You keep quoting me on the parts of my argument that you can best counter, yet that portion is taken out of context.
I'm pretty sure you're doing this intentionally as an attempt to devalue my point, yet anyone can simply scroll to the original comment and find the full context of my point.
You quote me as if I'm denying the data, when in fact I'm stating that the data does not, and cannot, factor all aspects into consideration.
Does it factor alt accounts?
Does it factor temporary obeservation accounts?
Does it factor alt characters?
Does it factor newbros that simply didn't like the game?
Does it factor newbors that had social ties with other players before joining Eve?
Does it factor those turned off by PVP?
Does it factor those who don't like to grind?
Does it factor those that like to grind for XP, but Eve doesn't support that?
Does it factor those that prefer solo activities?
This list of questions goes on and on.
If the answer to any of those question is no, then the data is flawed.
Not flawed in the sense that it's incorrect, but flawed in the sense that it is not a viable argument to the current conversation, as in, it does not confirm nor deny that NPC corps are the cause of low retention.
It only shows one VERY SPECIFIC point that may or may not mean anything.
CCP Rise is simply stating that if they can find a way to increase social activity with new players it MAY HELP with retention.
You can ask CCP Rise himself, and he will likely state (in some manner) that this assumption is purely based on speculation of a very narrow data point, but he will likely also go on to say that any and all increases to social involvement within Eve is always good regardless of whether it increases player retention or not.
If you listen to CCP Rise here...
You can see that he is talking about the same thing I have been...
I.E. - give new players better training and more content is what is likely to keep them in game.
As far as the mention of suicide ganking, he does mention that people who were suicide ganked were more likely to stick around.
People who were legally killed were not as likely. It would also help to note that he doesn't speak of how many of those legal kills were baits and/or an overall general lack of knowledge on game mechanics.
You might also notice that the opportunities system increased conversion WITHOUT the involvement of social activities.
This, again, goes to show that training and content are important to retention.
This is NOT to say that social interaction isn't important, but that it's not the only important factor in retention. |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:38:51 -
[1182] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You keep relying on this data as if it has no flaws.
The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth that it presents.
The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth it presents as I see it. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13195
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:44:59 -
[1183] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You keep relying on this data as if it has no flaws.
The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth that it presents. The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth it presents as I see it.
"as I see it".
Gotta keep pushing that agenda, huh carebear?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:45:43 -
[1184] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:I just linked a post to this effect earlier today. You can also watch CCP Rise's talk from Fanfest on using science to increase player retention. Why are people on these forums so untrusting?
Because maybe CCP Rise was a pirate style solo PVPer? They shouldn't put people with such a bias in such a position in game development. Maybe him and his ideas are why people don't join player corps, and why they unsub? Maybe they should let a more group minded player develop and balance content for EVE Online? |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:47:49 -
[1185] - Quote
Why do I stay in this Npc Corp? Simply because you people have nothing to offer me. Yall have nothing that I want, and no matter how pretty a picture you try to paint, ya ain't pulling me into your ranks. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
389
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:48:56 -
[1186] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Wardecs are content.
Only for one side. The people being wardecced either watch their retriever get melted by a proteus every time they undock until they run out of ISK, or they just don't undock for a week.
The manner in which wardecs are generally conducted makes them extremely uninteresting for the target in almost every case.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:50:34 -
[1187] - Quote
So, I went to the Dev blog with the CCP rise comment that everyone keeps quoting.
funny enough, if you click the Eve Dev link under his pic, this is the very next comment that shows up.
CCP Rise wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Rise wrote:The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Have you shown cause and effect here? That is, is the cause of the players leaving the game their lack of social activity? Or is it that the players who have no interest in social activity find this is not the game they were looking for, and move on? Simple answer is no. The closest come, for now, to establishing cause is to simply ask using exit surveys or other similar feedback channels. Otherwise we are doing the best we can with correlation. As a funny side note: one of the stronger indicators for whether or not someone sticks with EVE is whether or not they used combat drones during their first 30 days. Maybe using drones is just so awesome that they decide to sub right then and there?! Or maybe it's just correlation related to depth of engagement. You be the judge!
To simply this comment for those whom are hard headed, he's stating that the data shows a link, not a cause.
This is not different than saying that Players who were ever in space (remember, you start in space) are more likely to stay with Eve.
So again, it's correlation not causation. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13195
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:51:45 -
[1188] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
174
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:53:47 -
[1189] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You keep relying on this data as if it has no flaws.
The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth that it presents. The data is not flawed merely because you don't want to face the truth it presents as I see it. "as I see it". Gotta keep pushing that agenda, huh carebear?
All it took was 4 words to show there is no substance to your words. That was an easy win.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13195
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:56:44 -
[1190] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:
All it took was 4 words to show there is no substance to your words. That was an easy win.
Spin all you like, you can't escape the statistics.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 20:58:18 -
[1191] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
All it took was 4 words to show there is no substance to your words. That was an easy win.
Spin all you like, you can't escape the statistics.
Wait a minute, CareBears are supposed to share. Why isn't anyone sharing? Where's my free ISk by daily mail? Ship parts? Hell, veldspar? No one? Anyone? Huh, guess being a CareBear isn't as cracked up as they think it is.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 21:16:12 -
[1192] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Spin all you like, you can't escape the statistics.
I will again quote CCP Rise, as you so do, since you like to be so keen on how statistics supposedly show pure "facts".
CCP Rise wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Rise wrote:The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Have you shown cause and effect here? That is, is the cause of the players leaving the game their lack of social activity? Or is it that the players who have no interest in social activity find this is not the game they were looking for, and move on? Simple answer is no. The closest come, for now, to establishing cause is to simply ask using exit surveys or other similar feedback channels. Otherwise we are doing the best we can with correlation. As a funny side note: one of the stronger indicators for whether or not someone sticks with EVE is whether or not they used combat drones during their first 30 days. Maybe using drones is just so awesome that they decide to sub right then and there?! Or maybe it's just correlation related to depth of engagement. You be the judge!
Again, he's saying it's a correlation that could very well mean nothing.
Edit... Note where he says that using combat drones is a STRONGER INDICATOR, towards retention. STRONGER than social interaction.
Edit 2... For the sake of clarification, I'm not sure if CCP Rise is stating stronger than social interaction, or is one of the stronger indicators under social interaction.
CCP Rise would have to clarify that, but the point still stands that the numbers don't really prove anything. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1060
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 21:30:39 -
[1193] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:So again, it's correlation not causation.
We all know it is a correlation - we are not idiots. But this correlation, and the others they found in their dataset provide strong support for their view that the retention of new players strongly depends on the social bonds and social interactions that new players make. It certainly doesn't provide evidence for your position which seems to be that NPC corps are great as is and couldn't possibly be the cause of players leaving the game.
Take a step back man. You are projecting your Eve experience on the new player experience for everyone joining the game. You are arguing that CCP should make no effort increasing the social and sandbox integration because you are quite happy living in an NPC corp. That is just a downright bizarre position to take.
You are right the data doesn't speak for a single player - it is a collection of data from the behaviour of over 80 000 trial accounts and in aggregate, those that don't integrate in the sandbox are less likely to subscribe. That doesn't say that no one who stayed only in an NPC corp never subscribed, or that joining a player corp is a sure-fire way to retain a new player, but just that overall, these socially connected players are more likely to continue playing.
Maybe CCP is doomed to failure but trying to get more players socially engaged seems like a reasonable strategy to increase player retention. Even without the hard data, any reasonable outsider would accept this proposition, and in the face of the compelling data CCP Rise and CCP Quant have talked about recently, it really makes sense for them to focus some effort on increasing the exposure of new players to social and sandbox interactions.
Quit being pedantic and arguing that new players should be "left alone" or that player interactions are bad because they haven't done all the acceptable double-blind studies and exit interviews to convince you they can read the mind and motivations of every player. Stop arguing that opportunities for social interactions for new players should be ignored when all the data CCP has talked about says the opposite just because you really like living in an NPC corp.
All the data points to the increased retention rate for players who leave NPC corps, engage in social interactions, participate in wardecs or even that are ganked. How many thousands of players have started the trial, mined for two weeks by themselves while in the NPC corp where nothing interesting happened, and just quit the game out of boredom? We can only speculate, but CCP has access to that data and it is telling them that it is far too many. CCP are convinced that social interactions, both friendly and hostile, make these trial players engage with the game and stay, so expect more changes to nudge players towards each other in the future.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 21:46:26 -
[1194] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:So again, it's correlation not causation. We all know it is a correlation - we are not idiots. But this correlation, and the others they found in their dataset provide strong support for their view that the retention of new players strongly depends on the social bonds and social interactions that new players make. It certainly doesn't provide evidence for your position which seems to be that NPC corps are great as is and couldn't possibly be the cause of players leaving the game. Take a step back man. You are projecting your Eve experience on the new player experience for everyone joining the game. You are arguing that CCP should make no effort increasing the social and sandbox integration because you are quite happy living in an NPC corp. That is just a downright bizarre position to take.
So, I stopped reading right here, because it again shows that you're taking my comments out of context.
You're ignoring all other comments I've made in an attempt to push the agenda of making high sec PVP more viable and more forced onto players in NPC corps.
Go back and read my comments.
I've quoted CCP Rise stating, in a nut shell, that the statistics don't really prove anything.
I've also said that despite this, CCP Rise would likely say that any increase to social activity would be good for the game regardless of increasing player retention.
I have also stated that increasing training and content provided to newbros will increase retention and is as important, if not more important, than social interaction, at least in the beginning.
Forcing actions, such as war, onto NPC corps is not the solution to an unproven issue.
That, in fact, is projecting YOUR preferences on the NPE.
Y'all seem to keep saying that I'm forcing my play style onto everyone else, by taking my comments out of context, and then turn around and state what you want forced upon other players.
"I want more combat in high sec." "I don't want players to be safe from war in NPC corps." "I don't want casual corps." "I don't want casual players."
You, and many other people on here, have been saying nothing more that "my way or the highway" and then turn around saying that myself (and others who wish to keep NPC corps how they are), are the ones trying to force our agenda.
We don't want NPC corps to change... YOU want it to change to something more suitable for YOU.
So, who's the one trying to force what now? |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
174
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 21:49:46 -
[1195] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:So again, it's correlation not causation. We all know it is a correlation - we are not idiots. But this correlation, and the others they found in their dataset provide strong support for their view that the retention of new players strongly depends on the social bonds and social interactions that new players make. It certainly doesn't provide evidence for your position which seems to be that NPC corps are great as is and couldn't possibly be the cause of players leaving the game. Take a step back man. You are projecting your Eve experience on the new player experience for everyone joining the game. You are arguing that CCP should make no effort increasing the social and sandbox integration because you are quite happy living in an NPC corp. That is just a downright bizarre position to take. You are right the data doesn't speak for a single player - it is a collection of data from the behaviour of over 80 000 trial accounts and in aggregate, those that don't integrate in the sandbox are less likely to subscribe. That doesn't say that no one who stayed only in an NPC corp never subscribed, or that joining a player corp is a sure-fire way to retain a new player, but just that overall, these socially connected players are more likely to continue playing. Maybe CCP is doomed to failure but trying to get more players socially engaged seems like a reasonable strategy to increase player retention. Even without the hard data, any reasonable outsider would accept this proposition, and in the face of the compelling data CCP Rise and CCP Quant have talked about recently, it really makes sense for them to focus some effort on increasing the exposure of new players to social and sandbox interactions. Quit being pedantic and arguing that new players should be "left alone" or that player interactions are bad because they haven't done all the acceptable double-blind studies and exit interviews to convince you they can read the mind and motivations of every player. Stop arguing that opportunities for social interactions for new players should be ignored when all the data CCP has talked about says the opposite just because you really like living in an NPC corp. All the data points to the increased retention rate for players who leave NPC corps, engage in social interactions, participate in wardecs or even that are ganked. How many thousands of players have started the trial, mined for two weeks by themselves while in the NPC corp where nothing interesting happened, and just quit the game out of boredom? We can only speculate, but CCP has access to that data and it is telling them that it is far too many. CCP are convinced that social interactions, both friendly and hostile, make these trial players engage with the game and stay, so expect more changes to nudge players towards each other in the future.
Summary
We all know it is a correlation...but we will state otherwise anyways. |
Wendrika Hydreiga
370
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 21:51:55 -
[1196] - Quote
In social sciences, a correlation as little as 0.30 in a sample of 20 people is enough to publish an article based in it. Now dismissing a good correlation on a sample as big the entire playerbase of EVE is a bit foolish if you ask me.
Maybe surviving new players use drones because the ones that subscribe past the trial often skill to Mining Barges, which are for all intents and purposes, droneboats. And that's okay because mining is a good, if dull, stepping stone for bigger and more exciting experiences in the sandbox. And maybe the ones that go further past than that stick to NPC corps after bad experiences with player owned corps, or remain as highsec carebears and deny the PvPers their "gfs". Which leads to why the PvPers would rather they'd join the big named corporations, so they have more warm bodies to shoot at.
No way to know for sure. Oh well! |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 21:54:48 -
[1197] - Quote
Syn Shi wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:So again, it's correlation not causation. We all know it is a correlation - we are not idiots. But this correlation, and the others they found in their dataset provide strong support for their view that the retention of new players strongly depends on the social bonds and social interactions that new players make. It certainly doesn't provide evidence for your position which seems to be that NPC corps are great as is and couldn't possibly be the cause of players leaving the game. Take a step back man. You are projecting your Eve experience on the new player experience for everyone joining the game. You are arguing that CCP should make no effort increasing the social and sandbox integration because you are quite happy living in an NPC corp. That is just a downright bizarre position to take. You are right the data doesn't speak for a single player - it is a collection of data from the behaviour of over 80 000 trial accounts and in aggregate, those that don't integrate in the sandbox are less likely to subscribe. That doesn't say that no one who stayed only in an NPC corp never subscribed, or that joining a player corp is a sure-fire way to retain a new player, but just that overall, these socially connected players are more likely to continue playing. Maybe CCP is doomed to failure but trying to get more players socially engaged seems like a reasonable strategy to increase player retention. Even without the hard data, any reasonable outsider would accept this proposition, and in the face of the compelling data CCP Rise and CCP Quant have talked about recently, it really makes sense for them to focus some effort on increasing the exposure of new players to social and sandbox interactions. Quit being pedantic and arguing that new players should be "left alone" or that player interactions are bad because they haven't done all the acceptable double-blind studies and exit interviews to convince you they can read the mind and motivations of every player. Stop arguing that opportunities for social interactions for new players should be ignored when all the data CCP has talked about says the opposite just because you really like living in an NPC corp. All the data points to the increased retention rate for players who leave NPC corps, engage in social interactions, participate in wardecs or even that are ganked. How many thousands of players have started the trial, mined for two weeks by themselves while in the NPC corp where nothing interesting happened, and just quit the game out of boredom? We can only speculate, but CCP has access to that data and it is telling them that it is far too many. CCP are convinced that social interactions, both friendly and hostile, make these trial players engage with the game and stay, so expect more changes to nudge players towards each other in the future. Summary We all know it is a correlation...but we will state otherwise anyways.
Yup, and guess what... 100% of people that get cancer have drunken water at some point in their life.
I guess this means water causes cancer.
I know you and I understand that these correlations could potentially mean nothing.
Perhaps these other guys will eventually stop trying to use them to bash NPC corps?
Not like though...
|
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:01:22 -
[1198] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Wars don't add anything to the game. More mature player have moved to WH, null or low sec, while alting it up in high sec. War decs only exist to harass new players because, they are a high sec mechanic. Good game design would have made more of it than that. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
790
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:03:50 -
[1199] - Quote
here's another correlation that can be used to further express my point of how useless the data can potentially be.
Anyone here watch Gold Rush?
You take pan samples of dirt that shows a projected value of 15 ounces per yard....
That's a damn good number!!!
So, you process 1,000 yards of dirt.
Will you get 15,000 ounces?
Again, correlation is no different than speculation, only with numbers. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
791
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:08:57 -
[1200] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? Wars don't add anything to the game. More mature players have moved to WH, null or low sec, while alting it up in high sec. War decs only exist to harass new players because, they are a high sec mechanic. Good game design would have made more of it than that.
Well, it's not just to harass new players.
They also like to use it to harass miner, missioners, traders, and other non-direct PVP.
Though, some wardecs are used for good reasons.
I once used a war dec against a mining corp filled with alts that was mining every asteroid belt within 3 jumps, everyday.
9-10 characters, all with the same names and a number.
It was very likely that this person was macro-mining with these characters, as no human being has the tolerance or dedication to mine out several asteroid belts, on a daily basis, from down time to down time.
Though, we did suicide gank a few of his ships before we war decced him. the suicide ganks were enough to force him out of the system, but we wanted to make sure he stayed as far away as possible. |
|
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25224
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:09:47 -
[1201] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Anyone here watch Gold Rush?
I love this show so much. My dad recorded season 5 for me while I was out of the country and I am catching up on it during breaks.
I love the kid, and the old fellow who needs subtitles. Such a good show..
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
71
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:21:33 -
[1202] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:
Wow, when will you guys stop parroting that simplistic line. Correlations are used all the time to support hypotheses much more radical than "social interactions keep players in a social MMO game".
CCP has a massive dataset which they have mined backwards and forwards and are confident enough in there interpretation of the data to have CCP Rise stand up and present these findings to the world at Fanfest. You can put your head in the sand and call him incompetent or a liar, but that doesn't change the direction in which CCP is going to take this game.
Getting new players out of NPC corps and into player corps is now an important goal for CCP. I guess you are just going to have to deal with that.
Yes well I think CCP should keep giving CCP Rise the credit, so when the plans backfire, they know who to blame for all this. |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:22:56 -
[1203] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Black Pedro wrote:
Wow, when will you guys stop parroting that simplistic line. Correlations are used all the time to support hypotheses much more radical than "social interactions keep players in a social MMO game".
CCP has a massive dataset which they have mined backwards and forwards and are confident enough in there interpretation of the data to have CCP Rise stand up and present these findings to the world at Fanfest. You can put your head in the sand and call him incompetent or a liar, but that doesn't change the direction in which CCP is going to take this game.
Getting new players out of NPC corps and into player corps is now an important goal for CCP. I guess you are just going to have to deal with that.
Yes well I think CCP should keep giving CCP Rise the credit, so when the plans backfire, they know who to blame for all this.
Chances are it'll be the players. Specifically those who don't pvp in nullsec, and run mining ops out in highsec. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
791
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:23:45 -
[1204] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Syn Shi wrote:
Summary
We all know it is a correlation...but we will state otherwise anyways.
Yup, and guess what... 100% of people that get cancer have drunken water at some point in their life. I guess this means water causes cancer. I know you and I understand that these correlations could potentially mean nothing. Perhaps these other guys will eventually stop trying to use them to bash NPC corps? Not like though... Wow, when will you guys stop parroting that simplistic line. Correlations are used all the time to support hypotheses much more radical than "social interactions keep players in a social MMO game". CCP has a massive dataset which they have mined backwards and forwards and are confident enough in there interpretation of the data to have CCP Rise stand up and present these findings to the world at Fanfest. You can put your head in the sand and call him incompetent or a liar, but that doesn't change the direction in which CCP is going to take this game. Getting new players out of NPC corps and into player corps is now an important goal for CCP. I guess you are just going to have to deal with that.
never once have we said that getting new players out of NPC corps isn't an important goal.
We have merely stated that allowing war decs on NPC corps and making high sec PVP more viable are not solutions.
Even if that solution did increase player retention, it would likely not cover the loses caused by this.
Also, I would like to point out that correlations to hypothesis(an educated guess) is not valid enough to institute change.
it is nothing more than a conjunction to allow further testing.
Example -
Hypothesis - this pill may cure cancer
Correlation - Out of 5 test subjects with cancer, one no longer had cancer
Synopsis - said pill is a potential as cancer cure
Evaluation - Further testing with a larger test pool shows that only 1 out of 100 was cured of cancer
Conclusion - Said pill is not a viable cure for cancer and potentially cured subjects are likely coincidental.
Right now, CCP is at the Synopsis phase of social interaction = retention.
I will say that yes, player interaction does increase sustainability.
However, I will state that this conversation is in reference to newbros and NPC corps.
IE, is player interaction pertinent to newbro retention, or is it more important after training is complete?
Also, is the NPC corp experience hindering retention, or are non-retainable newbros more likely to remain in NPC corps?
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:31:08 -
[1205] - Quote
The thing most people and Ccp seem to be ignoring tho, is a lot of people don't care for social interaction. Forcing those people into situations they want nothing to do with will hurt their sub retention more then if they just left it alone. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8692
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:33:42 -
[1206] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:
Getting new players out of NPC corps and into player corps is now an important goal for CCP.
As it should be. It's just that turning them into fish in a barrel is not the way to do it.
There is no more incentive to leave NPC corps than there was 10 years ago. That's the real problem. Make being in a player corp meaningful.
Balancing the awox situation was a start at positive incentives. And positive incentives are what's needed. Not removing wardec immunity. Not forcing players out after 30 days. Not raising taxes to 90%.
You shouldn't be punished for wanting to stay in an NPC corp. You should be rewarded for leaving it. Though many may never leave, as is their choice in a sandbox, many may actually want to leave if the rewards are worth it. And speaking of sandbox, why aren't player corps more inviting for new players? It's not CCPs place to force them out, it's the player corps place to make it an interesting and exciting option to staying in NPC.
There are good corps in the game. Even some good teaching corps. The thing is that there are so few of them it's frustrating for players to get into them what with the draconian interviews and massive wait times.
It's all you whiners in high sec corps not willing to take new players under your wing that's the real problem here. You don't want to do that, it seems. What you want is new players being forced to make one man and small corps of inexperienced players so you can practice the manly art of war griefing for your own risk averse pleasure.
So stop with the ranting and raging and start doing something about it. If you seriously think it's good for the game as opposed to being good for your chickenshit play style, then open your doors. Welcome new players into the fold and make it a fun and positive learning experience to be blowing up ships. Or don't. But don't cry if you are not willing to be part of the solution. Just go away and let someone else that actually cares about the game do it.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
25
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:39:41 -
[1207] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Black Pedro wrote:
Getting new players out of NPC corps and into player corps is now an important goal for CCP.
As it should be. It's just that turning them into fish in a barrel is not the way to do it. There is no more incentive to leave NPC corps than there was 10 years ago. That's the real problem. Make being in a player corp meaningful. Balancing the awox situation was a start at positive incentives. And positive incentives are what's needed. Not removing wardec immunity. Not forcing players out after 30 days. Not raising taxes to 90%. You shouldn't be punished for wanting to stay in an NPC corp. You should be rewarded for leaving it. Though many may never leave, as is their choice in a sandbox, many may actually want to leave if the rewards are worth it. And speaking of sandbox, why aren't player corps more inviting for new players? It's not CCPs place to force them out, it's the player corps place to make it an interesting and exciting option to staying in NPC. There are good corps in the game. Even some good teaching corps. The thing is that there are so few of them it's frustrating for players to get into them what with the draconian interviews and massive wait times. It's all you whiners in high sec corps not willing to take new players under your wing that's the real problem here. You don't want to do that, it seems. What you want is new players being forced to make one man and small corps of inexperienced players so you can practice the manly art of war griefing for your own risk averse pleasure. So stop with the ranting and raging and start doing something about it. If you seriously think it's good for the game as opposed to being good for your chickenshit play style, then open your doors. Welcome new players into the fold and make it a fun and positive learning experience to be blowing up ships. Or don't. But don't cry if you are not willing to be part of the solution. Just go away and let someone else that actually cares about the game do it. Mr Epeen
The amount of truth in this is staggering. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
791
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 22:52:59 -
[1208] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Black Pedro wrote:
Getting new players out of NPC corps and into player corps is now an important goal for CCP.
As it should be. It's just that turning them into fish in a barrel is not the way to do it. There is no more incentive to leave NPC corps than there was 10 years ago. That's the real problem. Make being in a player corp meaningful. Balancing the awox situation was a start at positive incentives. And positive incentives are what's needed. Not removing wardec immunity. Not forcing players out after 30 days. Not raising taxes to 90%. You shouldn't be punished for wanting to stay in an NPC corp. You should be rewarded for leaving it. Though many may never leave, as is their choice in a sandbox, many may actually want to leave if the rewards are worth it. And speaking of sandbox, why aren't player corps more inviting for new players? It's not CCPs place to force them out, it's the player corps place to make it an interesting and exciting option to staying in NPC. There are good corps in the game. Even some good teaching corps. The thing is that there are so few of them it's frustrating for players to get into them what with the draconian interviews and massive wait times. It's all you whiners in high sec corps not willing to take new players under your wing that's the real problem here. You don't want to do that, it seems. What you want is new players being forced to make one man and small corps of inexperienced players so you can practice the manly art of war griefing for your own risk averse pleasure. So stop with the ranting and raging and start doing something about it. If you seriously think it's good for the game as opposed to being good for your chickenshit play style, then open your doors. Welcome new players into the fold and make it a fun and positive learning experience to be blowing up ships. Or don't. But don't cry if you are not willing to be part of the solution. Just go away and let someone else that actually cares about the game do it. Mr Epeen
But Mr. Epeen, why can't I have my cake and eat it too while forcing others to eat the cake I like? |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
266
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:04:29 -
[1209] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Wars don't add anything to the game.
corp A is owned by a null/lowsec corp/alliance lives in high sec and mines and builds equipment for their creator.
corp B is owned by their enemy and war decs them to stem the flow of equipment.
so wrong, wars have a very valid function within high sec and this is just one example.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
More mature players have moved to WH, null or low sec, while alting it up in high sec.
yea we know,, this is the corp/alliance i was talking about above. that's if they are in a corp after the first few war decs, more than likely they've jumped into an NPC corp so only have to worry about the odd gank now and then.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
War decs only exist to harass new players because, they are a high sec mechanic. Good game design would have made more of it than that.
war decs are not there to harass new players. war decs would exist even if they where not a mechanic in the game, i know many games that don't have a war dec mechanic but that doesn't stop one group attacking another.
you remove war decs and you remove an important part of the game, conflict, which drives EVE.
high sec wars as also an important way for players to enter small scale PVP that's not to take away from some high sec wars which are just as much fun as low of null sec combat, some would say even better.
each to their own i say
from what you've just said i can only assume that you'd like an area where no one can shoot at you while you mine and mission. that's never going to happen, what makes you think it would is beyond me, we can never have an area where you can reap rewards without risk.
no matter where you are in EVE when you undock from a station you consent to combat. the quicker a new player gets used to this the better. because that's how it is in EVE.
if any player refuses to accept that then it's best you stay docked when you get a war dec |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:07:38 -
[1210] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
Wars don't add anything to the game.
corp A is owned by a nul/lowsec corp/alliance lives in high sec and mines and builds equipment for their creator. corp B is owned by their enemy and war decs them to stem the flow of equipment. so wrong, wars have a very valid function within high sec and this is just one example. Aza Ebanu wrote:
More mature players have moved to WH, null or low sec, while alting it up in high sec.
yea we know,, this is the corp/alliance i was talking about above. that's if they are in a corp after the first few war decs, more than likely they've umped into an NPC corp so only have to worry about the odd gank now and then. Aza Ebanu wrote:
War decs only exist to harass new players because, they are a high sec mechanic. Good game design would have made more of it than that.
war decs are not there to harass new players. war decs would exist even if they where not a mechanic in the game, i know many games that dont' have a war dec mechanic but that doesn't stop one group attacking another. you remove war decs and you remove an importan part of the game, conflict, which drives EVE. high sec wars as also an important way for players to enter small scale PVP that's not to take away from some high sec wars which are just as much fun as low of null sec combat, some would say even better. each to their own i say from what you've just said i can only assume that you'd like an area where no one can shoot at you while you mine and mission. that's never going to happen, what makes you think it would is beyond me, we can never have an area where you can reap rewards with a risk. no matter where you are in EVE when you undock from a station you consent to combat. the quicker a new player gets used to this the better. because that's how it is in EVE. if any player refuses to accept that then it's best you stay docked when you get a war dec
Uh, cloaking device, helloooo. That one item alone essentially let's you skip roughly 90% of any so called risk. |
|
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Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
19
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:08:53 -
[1211] - Quote
Hey Yuri, why'd you biomass and recreate ?
- All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
266
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:11:54 -
[1212] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
Uh, cloaking device, helloooo. That one item alone essentially let's you skip roughly 90% of any so called risk.
I'm playing the game 8 years i know what a fecking cloaking device is.
you are not skipping 90% of anything,, you are playing the game. you've undocked and are taking a risk.. fair play to you
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:14:33 -
[1213] - Quote
Solstice Punk wrote:
Hey Yuri, why'd you biomass and recreate ?
That was a mining alt, this is my main.
|
Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:17:08 -
[1214] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Solstice Punk wrote:
Hey Yuri, why'd you biomass and recreate ?
That was a mining alt, this is my main.
What ?
You delete a mining alt with the same name and some SP ...
... and instead create a new char and call it main.
That makes no sense at all, you know ?
- All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:17:45 -
[1215] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Solstice Punk wrote:
Hey Yuri, why'd you biomass and recreate ?
That was a mining alt, this is my main.
I suffer from Multiple alt disorder lol, or as my wife says "character a.d.d" |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:19:22 -
[1216] - Quote
Solstice Punk wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Solstice Punk wrote:
Hey Yuri, why'd you biomass and recreate ?
That was a mining alt, this is my main. What ? You delete a mining alt with the same name and some SP ... ... and instead create a new char and call it main. That makes no sense at all, you know ?
It was only just under 200k sp, nothing major. And he was named after this Yuri. Its YuriCeption lol
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
267
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:20:07 -
[1217] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Solstice Punk wrote:
Hey Yuri, why'd you biomass and recreate ?
That was a mining alt, this is my main. I suffer from Multiple alt disorder lol, or as my wife says "character a.d.d"
so ya saying ya M A D bro
got it |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:21:41 -
[1218] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:Solstice Punk wrote:
Hey Yuri, why'd you biomass and recreate ?
That was a mining alt, this is my main. I suffer from Multiple alt disorder lol, or as my wife says "character a.d.d" so ya saying ya M A D bro got it
Lol clever |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:22:37 -
[1219] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:You are arguing that CCP should make no effort increasing the social and sandbox integration
Literally NO ONE is saying that.
Black Pedro wrote:All the data points to the increased retention rate for players who leave NPC corps
No it ******* doesn't.
It points to a commonality between players who continue to play EVE for more than 30 days and players who do things SUCH AS leave NPC corps . . . or use drones or buy and sell stuff on the market, etc.
People who don't take a fishing pole to the lake and people who don't catch any fish at the lake share A commonality, but not necessarily THE commonality of being bad fishermen.
People who stay in NPC corporations and people who don't continue to play EVE share A commonality, but not necessarily THE commonality of not having joined a player corporation.
And, do you understand the difference between:
Black Pedro wrote:CCP wrote:We'd like players to leave NPC corporations.
and
CCP wrote:We'd like players to leave NPC corporations.
Don't tell us their opinion. Tell us where they stated their opinion. |
Paranoid Loyd
5451
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:30:50 -
[1220] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:No it ******* doesn't. Clam down miner.
"Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata
Fix the Prospect!!!
|
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2015.05.29 23:43:21 -
[1221] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? Wars don't add anything to the game. More mature players have moved to WH, null or low sec, while alting it up in high sec. War decs only exist to harass new players because, they are a high sec mechanic. Good game design would have made more of it than that. Well, it's not just to harass new players. They also like to use it to harass miner, missioners, traders, and other non-direct PVP. Though, some wardecs are used for good reasons. I once used a war dec against a mining corp filled with alts that was mining every asteroid belt within 3 jumps, everyday. 9-10 characters, all with the same names and a number. It was very likely that this person was macro-mining with these characters, as no human being has the tolerance or dedication to mine out several asteroid belts, on a daily basis, from down time to down time. Though, we did suicide gank a few of his ships before we war decced him. the suicide ganks were enough to force him out of the system, but we wanted to make sure he stayed as far away as possible.
That kind of thing should be policed by game developers not players. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13199
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:09:39 -
[1222] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: It's not CCPs place to force them out, it's the player corps place to make it an interesting and exciting option to staying in NPC.
Except for the part where CCP gives player corps so little to offer.
That's their problem, and they need to get around to fixing it. That will mean a big net nerf to NPC corps, once CCP finds the spine to do it. And just like the ISBotters, the NPC corp carebears will cry and howl, but their time of standing in the way of improving the game will finally be at an end.
Quote:
It's all you whiners in high sec corps not willing to take new players under your wing that's the real problem here. You don't want to do that, it seems. What you want is new players being forced to make one man and small corps of inexperienced players so you can practice the manly art of war griefing for your own risk averse pleasure.
I was an awoxer for a long time before CCP decided it wasn't going to be allowed anymore, and as a result I have been in more corps than probably anyone in this thread.
The "griefing" corps you are frothing about? They are the friendly, welcoming, helpful ones, the ones who take newbies under their wing and teach them all about the game. You claim otherwise to perpetuate a lie for your own selfish benefit.
Quote:
So stop with the ranting and raging and start doing something about it.
We are, and we always have been. But CCP's PvE centric, boredom oriented design for highsec makes that an uphill battle. Something carebear chickenshits like you work so hard to defend.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23832
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:21:37 -
[1223] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet? Wars don't add anything to the game. More mature players have moved to WH, null or low sec, while alting it up in high sec. War decs only exist to harass new players because, they are a high sec mechanic. Good game design would have made more of it than that. Well, it's not just to harass new players. They also like to use it to harass miner, missioners, traders, and other non-direct PVP. Though, some wardecs are used for good reasons. I once used a war dec against a mining corp filled with alts that was mining every asteroid belt within 3 jumps, everyday. 9-10 characters, all with the same names and a number. It was very likely that this person was macro-mining with these characters, as no human being has the tolerance or dedication to mine out several asteroid belts, on a daily basis, from down time to down time. Though, we did suicide gank a few of his ships before we war decced him. the suicide ganks were enough to force him out of the system, but we wanted to make sure he stayed as far away as possible. That kind of thing should be policed by game developers not players. It is policed by CCP, they regularly ban macro and bot users and encourage us to report them. Using player reports as intelligence probably cuts down on the number crunching and they have no problem with us, the players, disrupting the activities of suspect players.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:22:11 -
[1224] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: It's not CCPs place to force them out, it's the player corps place to make it an interesting and exciting option to staying in NPC. Except for the part where CCP gives player corps so little to offer. That's their problem, and they need to get around to fixing it. That will mean a big net nerf to NPC corps, once CCP finds the spine to do it. And just like the ISBotters, the NPC corp carebears will cry and howl, but their time of standing in the way of improving the game will finally be at an end. Quote:
It's all you whiners in high sec corps not willing to take new players under your wing that's the real problem here. You don't want to do that, it seems. What you want is new players being forced to make one man and small corps of inexperienced players so you can practice the manly art of war griefing for your own risk averse pleasure.
I was an awoxer for a long time before CCP decided it wasn't going to be allowed anymore, and as a result I have been in more corps than probably anyone in this thread. The "griefing" corps you are frothing about? They are the friendly, welcoming, helpful ones, the ones who take newbies under their wing and teach them all about the game. You claim otherwise to perpetuate a lie for your own selfish benefit. Quote:
So stop with the ranting and raging and start doing something about it.
We are, and we always have been. But CCP's PvE centric, boredom oriented design for highsec makes that an uphill battle. Something carebear chickenshits like you work so hard to defend.
Again with the CareBear thing. No ones cared enough to share with this bear, so how is that slight relevant?
|
Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:25:27 -
[1225] - Quote
I object.
They are people who do not wish to defend themselves.
Calling people carebears is too vague and not actually hinting at the right people.
A more descriptive approach is preferrable and gives less ground for an attack.
Thanks.
- All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
250
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:26:13 -
[1226] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:No it ******* doesn't. Clam down miner.
People who use the word "****" and people who are me (a very select group, to be sure) share A commonality, but not necessarily THE commonality of being excited.  |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8696
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:30:58 -
[1227] - Quote
Solstice Punk wrote:
Calling people carebears is too vague and not actually hinting at the right people.
Check me out
I'm a big bear
And really, I care
So, would you dare...
to call me the right people?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8697
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:37:49 -
[1228] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mr Epeen wrote: It's not CCPs place to force them out, it's the player corps place to make it an interesting and exciting option to staying in NPC. Except for the part where CCP gives player corps so little to offer. That's their problem, and they need to get around to fixing it. That will mean a big net nerf to NPC corps, once CCP finds the spine to do it. And just like the ISBotters, the NPC corp carebears will cry and howl, but their time of standing in the way of improving the game will finally be at an end. Quote:
It's all you whiners in high sec corps not willing to take new players under your wing that's the real problem here. You don't want to do that, it seems. What you want is new players being forced to make one man and small corps of inexperienced players so you can practice the manly art of war griefing for your own risk averse pleasure.
I was an awoxer for a long time before CCP decided it wasn't going to be allowed anymore, and as a result I have been in more corps than probably anyone in this thread. The "griefing" corps you are frothing about? They are the friendly, welcoming, helpful ones, the ones who take newbies under their wing and teach them all about the game. You claim otherwise to perpetuate a lie for your own selfish benefit. Quote:
So stop with the ranting and raging and start doing something about it.
We are, and we always have been. But CCP's PvE centric, boredom oriented design for highsec makes that an uphill battle. Something carebear chickenshits like you work so hard to defend.
Is there anything more carebear than being a CODE logistic pilot?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
20
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:38:30 -
[1229] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Solstice Punk wrote:
Calling people carebears is too vague and not actually hinting at the right people.
Check me out I'm a big bear And really, I care So, would you dare... to call me the right people? Mr Epeen
Hi the right people.
I have no idea what you want. You're not a carebear and you can defend yourself.
You are also not identifying yourself with your spacechar.
Just saying that carebear as a term is of no use. It actually helps them when people use it.
It needs to be dropped ASAP and replaced with something more descriptive.
They are people who do not wish to defend themselves.
That's so much more accurate on so, so many levels.
- All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
|
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:46:45 -
[1230] - Quote
Care bears shoot lasers out of their belly.
I shoot lasers out of my ship.
If you use lasers you are a Care bear. |
|
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8697
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:48:45 -
[1231] - Quote
Solstice Punk wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Solstice Punk wrote:
Calling people carebears is too vague and not actually hinting at the right people.
Check me out I'm a big bear And really, I care So, would you dare... to call me the right people? Mr Epeen Hi the right people. I have no idea what you want. You're not a carebear and you can defend yourself. You are also not identifying yourself with your spacechar. Just saying that carebear as a term is of no use. It actually helps them when people use it. It needs to be dropped ASAP and replaced with something more descriptive. They are people who do not wish to defend themselves. That's so much more accurate on so, so many levels.
I was just prattling on. I hadn't actually spoken to this iteration of you yet and that's the best I could come up with on short notice.
But since we're on the topic. I call them the SRA (Severely Risk Averse). I think it's a better description of what we have here in EVE as opposed to the traditional MMO carebear.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1495
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:49:05 -
[1232] - Quote
Why would they want to defend? Why not evade? Is there an obligation to a course of action? If there is why do other courses of action exist?
Are we dealing with people who don't want to defend themselves? Probably. Why is that an issue? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
794
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:55:39 -
[1233] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Except for the part where CCP gives player corps so little to offer.
That's their problem, and they need to get around to fixing it. That will mean a big net nerf to NPC corps, once CCP finds the spine to do it. And just like the ISBotters, the NPC corp carebears will cry and howl, but their time of standing in the way of improving the game will finally be at an end.
So wait... You sit here and request more restrictions to NPC corps in order to force players into player corps, then turn around and say that CCP doesn't provide the corps much to offer...
You need to figure out what your trying to suggest... Nerf NPC corps or make player corps better?
Oh, and how exactly are NPC corp players standing in the way of improving gameplay?
You seem to have some knowledge that no one else shares...
Is it the changes to war decs and awoxing that are the fault of NPC carebears?
No... that can't be it, they're not in player corps so that crap doesn't matter to them....
Nope... I got nothing.... You're full of crap..
Quote:
I was an awoxer for a long time before CCP decided it wasn't going to be allowed anymore, and as a result I have been in more corps than probably anyone in this thread.
The "griefing" corps you are frothing about? They are the friendly, welcoming, helpful ones, the ones who take newbies under their wing and teach them all about the game. You claim otherwise to perpetuate a lie for your own selfish benefit.
Present the evidence to support this...
The "griefing" corps you so claim are willing to take on new player are friendly, welcoming, and helpful, are only so until you join their corp... Then they pop you and kick you from corp...
Am I wrong? Who knows... Do you have any evidence to say otherwise?
No?
Well then, your claims that others are lieing is nothing more than YOU attempting to perpetuate YOUR agenda.
Quote:
We are, and we always have been. But CCP's PvE centric, boredom oriented design for highsec makes that an uphill battle. Something carebear chickenshits like you work so hard to defend.
So wait...
The fact that I mine, or mission, or whatever PVE centric activity I focus on seems to break your game, I have a suggestion.
LTP or GTFO....
It's laughable how much you claim carebears and highsec are to blame for your lack of combat...
Perhaps isn't cause you're a chickenshit, high sec carebear hunter?
There are plenty of people in low, null, and WH space that very much enjoy your style of play.
What's the matter? You scared? |
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
176
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 00:59:52 -
[1234] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Why would they want to defend? Why not evade? Is there an obligation to a course of action? If there is why do other courses of action exist?
Are we dealing with people who don't want to defend themselves? Probably. Why is that an issue?
Because declaring war on a corp who doesn't want to be at war confuses the ones declaring the war.
And this makes them salty and forces them to make posts.
So how many times have we chased our tail around the beaten dead horse.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13200
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:09:54 -
[1235] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
You need to figure out what your trying to suggest... Nerf NPC corps or make player corps better?
Those two things are equivalent. Personally, I'd like to see both happen.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
795
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:12:17 -
[1236] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
You need to figure out what your trying to suggest... Nerf NPC corps or make player corps better?
Those two things are equivalent. Personally, I'd like to see both happen.
Aaaaand completely ignore the rest of my comments because you can't think of a way to twist them to what you want.
NPC corps are fine...
Don't like it?
Don't play. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13200
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:14:53 -
[1237] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
Aaaaand completely ignore the rest of my comments because you can't think of a way to twist them to what you want.
No, I ignored them because you're just rambling like a derelict.
Quote:
NPC corps are fine...
No, they're not. They're going to eat a fairly heavy nerf in the fairly near future, I suspect.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:28:38 -
[1238] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
Aaaaand completely ignore the rest of my comments because you can't think of a way to twist them to what you want.
No, I ignored them because you're just rambling like a derelict. Quote:
NPC corps are fine...
No, they're not. They're going to eat a fairly heavy nerf in the fairly near future, I suspect.
Which in turn will do nothing more then prompt player corps to have even more ridiculous standards to get in due to the high traffic fleeing npc corps. 48 hour wait periods, down payments, ******** 3 part interviews which mostly consist of "are you a spy? Are you a stream sniper? Which hand do you wipe your arse with?" Etc etc.
The problem never was the npc corps, it's always been the players, and that won't change, no matter what "data" Ccp pulls out of the void. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
795
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:31:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No, I ignored them because you're just rambling like a derelict.
I called you out on your BS and lack of evidence to support your claims.
u Mad Bro?
Or just out of fallacies?
Quote:
No, they're not. They're going to eat a fairly heavy nerf in the fairly near future, I suspect.
Really?
Cause there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest otherwise.
Seems like CCP realizes the issue is with casual players wanting to stay out of the BS politics.
Also, NPC corp account likely make up for a large chunk of CCP revenue.
Explain to me what makes you think they would risk throwing all that money out the window when they're in the process of trying to retain players?
I'm sure you can find another game to help you rage dunk on weaker players, if Eve isn't supporting your needs.
Have you tried any of the MMO RTSs lately? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13203
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:32:01 -
[1240] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
Which in turn will do nothing more then prompt player corps to have even more ridiculous standards to get in due to the high traffic fleeing npc corps.
My first thought upon reading that sentence.
Your ranting afterwards? Well, that's a whole different meme.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
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Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:35:02 -
[1241] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
Which in turn will do nothing more then prompt player corps to have even more ridiculous standards to get in due to the high traffic fleeing npc corps.
My first thought upon reading that sentence. Your ranting afterwards? Well, that's a whole different meme.
See, people exactly like you. You're nothing more then living proof of why we want nothing to do with your corps. Don't even bothering responding, the points been made, and you truly have no counterpoint worth offering. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13203
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:39:03 -
[1242] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
See, people exactly like you. You're nothing more then living proof of why we want nothing to do with your corps. Don't even bothering responding, the points been made, and you truly have no counterpoint worth offering.
The really funny part is that I wouldn't willingly associate with the likes of you, either. You're so much more useful as targets instead.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
795
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:44:19 -
[1243] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
See, people exactly like you. You're nothing more then living proof of why we want nothing to do with your corps. Don't even bothering responding, the points been made, and you truly have no counterpoint worth offering.
The really funny part is that I wouldn't willingly associate with the likes of you, either. You're so much more useful as targets instead.
Ahh poor boy is gonna lose targets if things don't go his way.
This makes me a saaaaaad panda... |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:44:43 -
[1244] - Quote
At least we can take comfort in knowing you people are no longer forced on us, we're forced on you. You have to deal with us, and not the other way around.
Cheers "mate" |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13207
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:48:06 -
[1245] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:At least we can take comfort in knowing you people are no longer forced on us, we're forced on you. You have to deal with us, and not the other way around.
Cheers "mate"
Don't make me break out the Jackie Chan meme again.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
795
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:49:24 -
[1246] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:At least we can take comfort in knowing you people are no longer forced on us, we're forced on you. You have to deal with us, and not the other way around.
Cheers "mate" Don't make me break out the Jackie Chan meme again.
Didn't work anyway...
Too bad... Could use another meme for Facebook... |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8699
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:54:46 -
[1247] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS.
I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37731
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:56:29 -
[1248] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Correlationnotcausation
We covered this about 30 pages ago in the thread.
It's likely that the causes of long term player retention are too varied to narrow down into something that can be focused on for a goid return on the investment. I'd also happily bet each of us in this thread have different reasons for staying with the game.
But we (carebears and pvpers alike) that are the 10% that find the play that attracts us, for whatever reason.
Clearly based on the data, that 90% that leave quickly, don't. Some would probably never find it, but CCP realise there is an opportunity cost if they just kept doing the same thing. So they decided to do something different and try to expose more new players to a broader range of possible experiences.
From there, it's up to the players and there will still be a lot that leave. But if some of that 90% end up as long term subscribers, that's good for everyone, irrespective of the individual cause.
So the causes are great to know (CCP exit surveys seem to be their main source of data for that), but equally important are the experiences that correlate with the higher retention of the 10% of us that stay.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
796
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 01:58:54 -
[1249] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS. I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado. Mr Epeen
Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited...
Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit. |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:01:26 -
[1250] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS. I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado. Mr Epeen Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited... Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit.
"Hello? 9-11? I just witnessed a murder"
|
|
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
796
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:02:28 -
[1251] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Correlationnotcausation We covered this about 30 pages ago in the thread. It's likely that the causes of long term player retention are too varied to narrow down into something that can be focused on for a goid return on the investment. I'd also happily bet each of us in this thread have different reasons for staying with the game. But we (carebears and pvpers alike) that are the 10% that find the play that attracts us, for whatever reason. Clearly based on the data, that 90% that leave quickly, don't. Some would probably never find it, but CCP realise there is an opportunity cost if they just kept doing the same thing. So they decided to do something different and try to expose more new players to a broader range of possible experiences. From there, it's up to the players and there will still be a lot that leave. But if some of that 90% end up as long term subscribers, that's good for everyone, irrespective of the individual cause. So the causes are great to know (CCP exit surveys seem to be their main source of data for that), but equally important are the experiences that correlate with the higher retention of the 10% of us that stay.
Well said.
Now, if only we could get some of these people to realize that nerfing NPC corps doesn't fix CCP's issue. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13207
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:02:31 -
[1252] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS. I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado. Mr Epeen Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited... Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit.
More like it's rather hard to juggle overheats and active reps with an infant on my lap, but push whatever narrative you two desire.
Although it is rather fun to see a dedicated forum alt play at **** measuring with killboards.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:04:53 -
[1253] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS. I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado. Mr Epeen Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited... Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit. More like it's rather hard to juggle overheats and active reps with an infant on my lap, but push whatever narrative you two desire. I did have a rather bracing time in Squiddie FW space the other day, but not on this guy, his Gallente standings aren't good enough to join. I have to have Diplo to max just to enter their space anymore. Although it is rather fun to see a dedicated forum alt play at **** measuring with killboards.
If you were looking to discredit yourself, you could have just said "well, as a mother...." Instead.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13207
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:07:44 -
[1254] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
If you were looking to discredit yourself, you could have just said "well, as a mother...." Instead.
Your error lies in the assumption that I, or anyone, gives a crap what a worthless NPC alt thinks.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
796
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:07:45 -
[1255] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS. I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado. Mr Epeen Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited... Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit. More like it's rather hard to juggle overheats and active reps with an infant on my lap, but push whatever narrative you two desire. I did have a rather bracing time in Squiddie FW space the other day, but not on this guy, his Gallente standings aren't good enough to join. I have to have Diplo to max just to enter their space anymore. Although it is rather fun to see a dedicated forum alt play at **** measuring with killboards.
Well...
So far it appears yours is smaller..
Funny though....
How does an infant keep you from PVP with one character, but not the other?
Which I might add, we coincidentally have not had the luxury to meet.
Odd.... |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:08:58 -
[1256] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
If you were looking to discredit yourself, you could have just said "well, as a mother...." Instead.
Your error lies in the assumption that I, or anyone, gives a crap what a worthless NPC alt thinks.
Worthless npc main, thank you. At least give credit where it's due.
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
8700
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:10:06 -
[1257] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: I did have a rather bracing time in Squiddie FW space the other day, but not on this guy, his Gallente standings aren't good enough to join.
Of course. And your other car is a Porsche.
Pretty lame to use the old, "My other super secret alt is the real killer" gambit.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13207
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:10:44 -
[1258] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
How does an infant keep you from PVP with one character, but not the other?
Because faction warfare is fly and die with cheap little frigates? If you don't care if you live, you can use one hand.
Do try to pay attention.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13207
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:13:48 -
[1259] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:
Of course. And your other car is a Porsche.
Nope, I drive a Subaru.
Quote:
Pretty lame to use the old, "My other super secret alt is the real killer" gambit.
Says the self acknowledged forum alt? Get over yourself, puffball. Besides, pretty sure if I were to check the FW character, her killboard would suck.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
797
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:17:14 -
[1260] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:
If you were looking to discredit yourself, you could have just said "well, as a mother...." Instead.
Your error lies in the assumption that I, or anyone, gives a crap what a worthless NPC alt thinks.
I care...
Meet my worthless NPC alt...
Want more news that will make you feel better?
This character is specifically used for forum posting.
See, I use this character so that I can enjoy my game time instead of dealing with people that use Eve to make them feel better, in order to make up for their failures IRL.
See, I've accomplished quite a bit in my 31 years of life, and don't really need people, who missed puberty, harassing me in game. |
|
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
797
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:18:46 -
[1261] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
How does an infant keep you from PVP with one character, but not the other?
Because faction warfare is fly and die with cheap little frigates? If you don't care if you live, you can use one hand. Do try to pay attention.
I can't imagine what you do with that other hand when you're enjoying the destruction of weak targets. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13208
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:19:50 -
[1262] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
How does an infant keep you from PVP with one character, but not the other?
Because faction warfare is fly and die with cheap little frigates? If you don't care if you live, you can use one hand. Do try to pay attention. I can't imagine what you do with that other hand when you're enjoying the destruction of weak targets.
Sampling fine whines, of course.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
797
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:21:18 -
[1263] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
How does an infant keep you from PVP with one character, but not the other?
Because faction warfare is fly and die with cheap little frigates? If you don't care if you live, you can use one hand. Do try to pay attention. I can't imagine what you do with that other hand when you're enjoying the destruction of weak targets. Sampling fine whines, of course.
Lol, had to like that post..
Can't not like that.... |
Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
24
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:29:45 -
[1264] - Quote
You two. Cute.
- All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37739
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 02:48:15 -
[1265] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Correlationnotcausation We covered this about 30 pages ago in the thread. It's likely that the causes of long term player retention are too varied to narrow down into something that can be focused ... ... Now, if only we could get some of these people to realize that nerfing NPC corps doesn't fix CCP's issue.
Depends on perspective I guess.
I don't think there is any risk that CCP will nerf NPC Corps so the following is just a random thought rather than a call for action. Even if it was, it would just as much be a call for changes to many player corps:
Whether the CEO is an NPC or a player, corporations are at their core, groups of players. It's players that bring content to each other whether through conflict or support and within the game, the role of corporations is largely to provide support (eg. Common goals, shared experiences, services, etc.).
Where corporations aren't doing that what's the point of the corporation even existing, especially the starter corps where it could be argued that the internal engagement and assistance should be the highest out of any corps?
If the starter corps don't provide that support, it could be argued that time in them should be limited so that new players struggling to find the experience that hooks them, are moved after a short period to an alternative where they might find it.
Of the reasons listed in this long thread for staying in an NPC Corp, they seem to most commonly boil down to:
1. Wardec immunity (eg. Hauler alts)
2. Anonymity (eg. Links alts)
3. No interest in social play and want to play solo
None of us have said "so we can help others, especially new players".
So if, aside from notable exceptions like CAS, most of us stay in NPC Corps for personal reasons and not to be part of a Corp, why shouldn't that be nerfed?
Why also shouldn't new players be moved away from that environment as soon as possible because the other players in their corp are not interested in them? Why not move them somewhere else so they have a better chance of finding people interested in helping them?
A more harsh view might even be that if players in NPC Corps don't want nerfs then they should start acting like members of a Corp and not just as a way to easily hide or play alone, because otherwise they aren't being members of that Corp anyway.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 03:00:06 -
[1266] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're so much more useful as targets instead.
But they look like people. You don't shoot people. In fact you haven't shot anything in 2015 except a POS. I don't think they need to fear you, really. No sticks and stones. Just empty bravado. Mr Epeen Well you see, when you can't awox anymore, your combat capabilities are pretty limited... Kinda hard to kill people when you don't know how they're fit. More like it's rather hard to juggle overheats and active reps with an infant on my lap, but push whatever narrative you two desire. I did have a rather bracing time in Squiddie FW space the other day, but not on this guy, his Gallente standings aren't good enough to join. I have to have Diplo to max just to enter their space anymore. Although it is rather fun to see a dedicated forum alt play at **** measuring with killboards.
Which side? I want to shoot at you.
|
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
188
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 03:11:27 -
[1267] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Depends on perspective I guess.
I don't think there is any risk that CCP will nerf NPC Corps so the following is just a random thought rather than a call for action. Even if it was, it would just as much be a call for changes to many player corps:
Whether the CEO is an NPC or a player, corporations are at their core, groups of players. It's players that bring content to each other whether through conflict or support and within the game, the role of corporations is largely to provide support (eg. Common goals, shared experiences, services, etc.).
Where corporations aren't doing that what's the point of the corporation even existing, especially the starter corps where it could be argued that the internal engagement and assistance should be the highest out of any corps?
If the starter corps don't provide that support, it could be argued that time in them should be limited so that new players struggling to find the experience that hooks them, are moved after a short period to an alternative where they might find it.
Of the reasons listed in this long thread for staying in an NPC Corp, they seem to most commonly boil down to:
1. Wardec immunity (eg. Hauler alts)
2. Anonymity (eg. Links alts)
3. No interest in social play and want to play solo
None of us have said "so we can help others, especially new players".
So if, aside from notable exceptions like CAS, most of us stay in NPC Corps for personal reasons and not to be part of a Corp, why shouldn't that be nerfed?
Why also shouldn't new players be moved away from that environment as soon as possible because the other players in their corp are not interested in them? Why not move them somewhere else so they have a better chance of finding people interested in helping them?
A more harsh view might even be that if players in NPC Corps don't want nerfs then they should start acting like members of a Corp and not just as a way to easily hide or play alone, because otherwise they aren't being members of that Corp anyway.
So... Just put all new players in CAS by default, and problem solved? Heehee.
Although I do wonder what other place you think new players should move to. A one-person corp that they are CEO of? A random player-owned corp? Maybe a market-driven mechanic where corps bid ISK to be the next receiver of newbies? Specific corps chosen by CCP, for example GSF, IVY and BNI? Something new that's just like an NPC corp but is subject to war decs? A holding corp that prevents them from undocking or using the markets or contracts? |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
519
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 03:12:26 -
[1268] - Quote
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
8. Use of profanity is prohibited.
The use of profanity is prohibited on the EVE Online forums. This includes the partial masking of letters using numbers or alternate symbols, and any attempts at bypassing the profanity filter.
19. New player bashing will not be tolerated.
New members of the EVE Online community are encouraged to use, but are not restricted to the EVE New Citizens Q&A forum. This forum is specifically designed to provide a platform for those who are new to the EVE community to ask questions and learn more about EVE. More experienced forum users are encouraged to participate by assisting new players with helpful and courteous responses. All flaming, trolling and posts of a derogatory nature will be deleted, and will be considered a severe breach of the forum rules.
23. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
Please keep things on topic and respectful.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1496
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 03:14:15 -
[1269] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Depends on perspective I guess.
I don't think there is any risk that CCP will nerf NPC Corps so the following is just a random thought rather than a call for action. Even if it was, it would just as much be a call for changes to many player corps:
Whether the CEO is an NPC or a player, corporations are at their core, groups of players. It's players that bring content to each other whether through conflict or support and within the game, the role of corporations is largely to provide support (eg. Common goals, shared experiences, services, etc.).
Where corporations aren't doing that what's the point of the corporation even existing, especially the starter corps where it could be argued that the internal engagement and assistance should be the highest out of any corps?
If the starter corps don't provide that support, it could be argued that time in them should be limited so that new players struggling to find the experience that hooks them, are moved after a short period to an alternative where they might find it.
Of the reasons listed in this long thread for staying in an NPC Corp, they seem to most commonly boil down to:
1. Wardec immunity (eg. Hauler alts)
2. Anonymity (eg. Links alts)
3. No interest in social play and want to play solo
None of us have said "so we can help others, especially new players".
Self interest, rather than shared interest, is the most common reason we use NPC Corps. That's also the antithesis of what new players seem to benefit most from.
So if, aside from notable exceptions like CAS, most of us stay in NPC Corps for personal reasons and not to be part of a Corp, why shouldn't that be nerfed?
Why also shouldn't new players be moved away from that environment as soon as possible because the other players in their corp are not interested in them? Why not move them somewhere else so they have a better chance of finding people interested in helping them?
A more harsh view might even be that if players in NPC Corps don't want nerfs then they should start acting like members of a Corp and not just as a way to easily hide or play alone, because otherwise they aren't being members of that Corp anyway.
That really isn't a reason NPC corps should be nerfed. The logic certainly follows that a group of primarily self seeking players isn't the most helpful to new players. I don't think there can be any doubt to that. At the same time NPC corps serve a second function, corps for the corpless. That function in no way gets conflicted when self serving players or playstyles exist within them.
Unless you are arguing that the long term NPC corp dwellers were never considered, which I believe false as the NPC corp tax was added for just that reason, then the statement about them purely being for new player benefit doesn't seem to hold up.
There is some merit to the idea of older players providing help to new players in NPC corps, that said the best new player organizations do tend to be player corps. Anyone can enter the NPC corps and advocate for new members to those corps, but it's rare I see it done.
I'd ask the question, why do those in the best places to help new players, player corps, interact with the new players in NPC corps far less than they have the option to? And further, why should those with fewer tools and potentially knowledge on top of experience likely concentrated to a single area of the game be expected to successfully fill that void? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37739
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 03:26:26 -
[1270] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:So... Just put all new players in CAS by default, and problem solved? Heehee. Although I do wonder what other place you think new players should move to. A one-person corp that they are CEO of? A random player-owned corp? Maybe a market-driven mechanic where corps bid ISK to be the next receiver of newbies? Specific corps chosen by CCP, for example GSF, IVY and BNI? Something new that's just like an NPC corp but is subject to war decs? A holding corp that prevents them from undocking or using the markets or contracts?
Not being a game designer, I don't have any good response. The CAS option is probably as good as any, though that would potentially impact on some role play/Lore aspects that are also important to people.
Aside from that none of the options I can think of adequately address it, other than what CCP are already doing by trying to expose new players to varied experiences and increasing the possibilities that player corps will recruit and will be discovered.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Yuri Ostrovskoy
State War Academy
Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2015.05.30 03:44:05 -
[1271] - Quote
So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps? If a player corp is superior, why haven't any of you taken this opportunity to run open recruitment and show us your "better way"? Or is it because the outspoken are actually fine with npc corps, as long as they can pummel them without repercussions?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37740
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 03:58:48 -
[1272] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps? If a player corp is superior, why haven't any of you taken this opportunity to run open recruitment and show us your "better way"? Or is it because the outspoken are actually fine with npc corps, as long as they can pummel them without repercussions?
Personally, as a recruiter I offer what we can to players in game. The forum is a poor place to reach out to people.
I think also that question would be a different thread.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1062
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 06:48:09 -
[1273] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Eli Stan wrote:So... Just put all new players in CAS by default, and problem solved? Heehee. Although I do wonder what other place you think new players should move to. A one-person corp that they are CEO of? A random player-owned corp? Maybe a market-driven mechanic where corps bid ISK to be the next receiver of newbies? Specific corps chosen by CCP, for example GSF, IVY and BNI? Something new that's just like an NPC corp but is subject to war decs? A holding corp that prevents them from undocking or using the markets or contracts? Not being a game designer, I don't have any good response. The CAS option is probably as good as any, though that would potentially impact on some role play/Lore aspects that are also important to people. Aside from that none of the options I can think of adequately address it, other than what CCP are already doing by trying to expose new players to varied experiences and increasing the possibilities that player corps will recruit and will be discovered.
Exactly. This is all CCP is trying to do. All the hand-wringing and fear of change in this thread is misplaced. CCP's data strongly support their current view that it is social interactions, such as being in a player corp, that increase the chance players will join the game. So CCP is going to implement new ways to teach players (Opportunities) about these social activities, as well other changes to game play in effort to get new players to at least try these activities (market trading, joining a fleet, PvPing, etc.) which seem to retain players better than those that follow a solo mining or "leveling that Raven" path in the game. I fail to see how anyone can be against that.
Nerfing NPC corps isn't a magic bullet that is going to solve this problem or CCP would have started with that move. Some sort of NPC corp is necessary for new players to start out in, to fall back to when their corp implodes or they take a break, and for the truly risk-averse in this game. However, if they are too comfortable or lucrative, they will be exploited for free safety by veteran players who want to earn a competitive income in isolation but not spend effort on a defense as is far too much the case now.
CCP likes to move slowly and carefully so if this new strategy to expose new players to these social aspects of the game continues to prove to be a success, they will start making changes to buff players corps and/or nerf NPC corps (which as Kaarous correctly pointed out are functionally equivalent). I think it will probably be more of the former via new structures, but some changes to NPC corps that have no impact on a truly new player while making it less comfortable for those seeking maximum ISK/h to hide in them are not out of the question. Whether that is increased risk, or decreased income in NPC corps will be up to CCP.
I don't know why people act so surprised that Eve development is moving towards a more social, PvP and player-driven direction and that some of their sacred cows might be slaughtered. CCP Seagull stood up two years ago and gave us her grand vision of Eve which included such phrases as "player-driven stories", "Empires loosing their grip" and "everything will be destructible". She also literally said they are going to "challenge a lot of old truths and a lot of old ideas about how things have to be in EVE...". None of that is compatible with players being able to hide in NPC corps forever making a competitive ISK/h solo while under the free protection of CONCORD and immune from the actions of other players.
Folks, times they are a-changin'. |
Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
27
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Posted - 2015.05.30 07:33:17 -
[1274] - Quote
Turn current rookiecorps into regular npc corps.
Make npc corps choseable whenever one leaves a playercorp.
Give people information about the activities of players in these corps.
Problem solves itself as good players will spread out into them and drive out the bad players who sent everyone into isolation.
It's a nobrainer, really.
- All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
250
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Posted - 2015.05.30 08:36:35 -
[1275] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:CCP is going to implement new ways to teach players (Opportunities) about . . . social activities, as well other changes to game play in effort to get new players to at least try these activities (market trading, joining a fleet, PvPing, etc.) which seem to retain players better than those that follow a solo mining or "leveling that Raven" path in the game. I fail to see how anyone can be against that.
I also fail to see how anyone can be against that, but here you are arguing for CCP to push players away from one of the oldest mechanisms for encouraging such social interaction, NPC corporations. Don't you want noobs to have a way to interact and network with other players right from the start? Why are you advocating taking that away from them? Don't you want noobs to succeed?
And, why do you keep demeaning the playstyle of people who "level their Ravens"? If you don't like playing a game where people can choose to interact or not, maybe this isn't the game for. People have freedom of choice in EVE. Its one of the great and unique things about this game. Love it or leave it.
Black Pedro wrote:However, if [NPC corporations] are too comfortable or lucrative, they will be exploited for free safety by veteran players who want to earn a competitive income in isolation but not spend effort on a defense as is far too much the case now.
I agree. In fact, ANY corporation that is TOO comfortable or TOO lucrative should be nerfed. If you can sit in a system all by yourself for hours on end mining high end ore or doing high end anomalies or you can make a billion ISK a day (over a PLEX a day!) or hauling around billions in cargo in perfect safety, CCP should nerf you.
Now, you and I, Black Pedro, may not know who all these corps are, but CCP knows. I commend you for having the courage to speak out and hopefully CCP will take our advice and nerf the ******* into oblivion.
Too much safety and comfort and income for people who abuse mechanics is a problem in EVE. Bravo to you for taking such a principled stance.
Am I doing this right?
Black Pedro wrote:CCP likes to move slowly and carefully so if this new strategy to expose new players to these social aspects of the game continues to prove to be a success, they will start making changes to buff players corps and/or nerf NPC corps (which as Kaarous correctly pointed out are functionally equivalent). I think it will probably be more of the former via new structures, but some changes to NPC corps that have no impact on a truly new player while making it less comfortable for those seeking maximum ISK/h to hide in them are not out of the question. Whether that is increased risk, or decreased income in NPC corps will be up to CCP.
This is hardly a new strategy. The implementation of things like NPC corporations from such an early stage in EVE's development should tell you that CCP has been trying to encourage players to interact for quite a long time. I don't know why you think scattering NPC corp players to the four winds will INCREASE their interaction, socialization, and retention. I certainly haven't seen any official statement by CCP stating their intention to reverse course and start dismantling NPC corporations and other mechanisms that encourage social interaction in the game. In fact, I suspect they have a desire to increase security for high sec and NPC corp players. They might even want to nerf player corps to encourage their members to rejoin NPC corporations where they can contribute to the interaction and socialization of new players more directly and efficiently.
So you see, Black Pedro, you are not the only one who can make logically inconsistent, passive aggressive posts laced with pathos, bias, and misinformation. Some of us just prefer to communicate in a more civilized manner. I only do it in this instance to rub your nose in it like a puppy who has just **** on the carpet. BAD DOGGIE! |
Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
34
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Posted - 2015.05.30 08:40:02 -
[1276] - Quote
Wow that's really immature and childish.
Calm down, miner. This isn't your life, okay ?
- All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1729
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Posted - 2015.05.30 08:46:12 -
[1277] - Quote
This thread... I need the extra big popcorn bucket for it.
And of course, cannot forget the butter and salt.
My arteries may hate me for it.
Now I'm hungry. I blame all of you.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Anuri Suaraj
The Cylar Foundation
24
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Posted - 2015.05.30 08:55:35 -
[1278] - Quote
I would just like to know what this "wardec" thing is, and also why do people obsess about it so frequently?! |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1730
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 09:06:40 -
[1279] - Quote
Anuri Suaraj wrote:I would just like to know what this "wardec" thing is, and also why do people obsess about it so frequently?!
It's a fun way for corps to pew at each other in high sec without the cops breaking up the party.
Giggles and antimatter for everyone.
As far as obsession? It scares some of the more serious-minded folks.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
433
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Posted - 2015.05.30 12:42:05 -
[1280] - Quote
Anuri Suaraj wrote:I would just like to know what this "wardec" thing is, and also why do people obsess about it so frequently?!
It's like a patio deck....except you shoot each other in game instead of dysfunctional family members over for a barbecue... |
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Anuri Suaraj
The Cylar Foundation
24
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Posted - 2015.05.30 12:42:47 -
[1281] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:I would just like to know what this "wardec" thing is, and also why do people obsess about it so frequently?! It's a fun way for corps to pew at each other in high sec without the cops breaking up the party. Giggles and antimatter for everyone. As far as obsession? It scares some of the more serious-minded folks.
Ehrm, the non-provoking, non-war-declaring party can reject this war declaration and stay protected by them cops, right?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13216
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 12:45:18 -
[1282] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
434
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 12:52:27 -
[1283] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that.
I have no racket going...and I am an extremely nice guy...
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1737
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 12:57:14 -
[1284] - Quote
Anuri Suaraj wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Anuri Suaraj wrote:I would just like to know what this "wardec" thing is, and also why do people obsess about it so frequently?! It's a fun way for corps to pew at each other in high sec without the cops breaking up the party. Giggles and antimatter for everyone. As far as obsession? It scares some of the more serious-minded folks. Ehrm, the non-provoking, non-war-declaring party can reject this war declaration and stay protected by them cops, right?
Yes, via the surrender mechanic thingy. Or they can dissolve and reform, but that's considered to be bad form by most.
It's all about form, right?
Out in null, low, or WH space it's not such a big deal because well, anyone who's not blue isn't blue. But here in the 'burbs we have to pay the 50 to look the other way. The folks in NPC corps mostly get to spectate, but they still have to keep an eye out for gankers.
As far as positives for joining a player corp, they kind of vary depending on the corp.
I try to recruit prospective new members from three different categories.
The first is like-minded individuals who already have a love of pewing their fellow man. These guys can be a lot of fun, but sometimes our style doesn't fit them so they move on. No hard feelings for the ones who leave, awesome for those who stay.
The second is from those whom I've detonated. Most of these guys are kind of peeved at me for the sudden widening of their O-rings, so usually not interested. On the other hand I've had a few who's response to the experience was 'OMG that was AWESOME! ' or 'I swear revenge upon you and yours!'... which is great, as I'm more than willing to teach them how to do what I do, and I also will happily teach them how to murder me in the future.
And the third is the very much brand new newbieriffic newbros. These guys are awesome. Some don't fit in, and that's okay... others find something in the game that's truly pleasurable to them as a result and enjoy great fun. These are my favorite.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13216
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 12:58:31 -
[1285] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that. I have no racket going...and I am an extremely nice guy...
Want to join CODE? Our wardec arm has finally finished reorganizing, and we have a bunch of decs going. Or you can join New Order Logistics, and get started with some ganking. We happily accept alts, although if you're just there to spy on our teamspeak you will probably be purged.
The only condition is that you have to guess the password to the minerbumping channel. But it should be a pretty easy guess.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1739
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 13:25:44 -
[1286] - Quote
I also am an extremely nice guy.
I had to clarify to my coworkers who are keenly interested in this game (mostly the ex marines) that I'm not hostile at all, I'm simply very aggressive.
The person who's ship I'm blowing up, or who's blowing up my ship? They are at that moment my absolute favorite person in the game. I don't hate them, in fact I'm thankful that they've given me this opportunity to tangle with an opponent who thinks... something other than a bland AI to interact with. If they win, well then Good Fight to them! If I win, the same.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Solstice Punk
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
39
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Posted - 2015.05.30 13:45:44 -
[1287] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that. I have no racket going...and I am an extremely nice guy... Want to join CODE? Our wardec arm has finally finished reorganizing, and we have a bunch of decs going. Or you can join New Order Logistics, and get started with some ganking. We happily accept alts, although if you're just there to spy on our teamspeak you will probably be purged. The only condition is that you have to guess the password to the minerbumping channel. But it should be a pretty easy guess.
"loyal is ***" ... isn't it.
Yeah I just had to.
Looking for friends ? Want to boost your Likes ? Ever wanted to chat with the hottest Lady in New Eden ??
Join LAGL ! Post "Sol said Hi !" and receive ten Million ISK!
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Suleiman al-Amarr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 14:31:26 -
[1288] - Quote
There is so much positivity in this thread. I love it. Cookies for all of you!
Forever faithful to the Imperial Academy.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25259
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 15:14:43 -
[1289] - Quote
Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps? If a player corp is superior, why haven't any of you taken this opportunity to run open recruitment and show us your "better way"? Or is it because the outspoken are actually fine with npc corps, as long as they can pummel them without repercussions?
We're fine with NPC corps, as long as its members can be "pummelled without repercussions" just like everyone else in EVE, instead of enjoying an unjustifiable hisec godmode** buff.
** Yes, Tyberius it's godmode because unless you're flying a hauler you can't be killed in hisec while travelling. Please don't add AP here - we all know that using AP is an invitation for an easy kill. I'm sure you know what instaundocks and instadocks are.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
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kes88
Swords of Persephone
99
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 15:46:12 -
[1290] - Quote
So I actually read about 50 pages of this thread...
But something occured to me earlier today. I stayed in CAS for a while, and I got a huge amount of support and advice and I doubt very much that I would still be here without that start. However, after reading the vast majority of this thread I find the most sensible attitiude to this issue is Scipio's. It's not about scrapping anything, it's about increasing interest and involvement early on so we have a diverse playerbase and so newbros don't quit in their first month.
I am not a good example of getting really immersed in Eve. I left CAS to join a corp my bf started and he doesn't play much anymore so it's essentially a one person corp now, so my opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt.
But what occured to me today was why do we have to narrow the experience down? We know players in NPC corps have a lower retention rate than players in player corps but we also know that newbros need access to a corp with lots of vets and advice to get them properly into Eve....but why can't they have both?
Maybe we could keep the NPC corps but say after a month you can also join a player corp? So your chat has Local, NPC corp (or racial corp) and player corp? I haven't completely thought this through, but it just struck me why completely throw out NPC corps (and I'm not sure this is the purpose at all anyway) when we could just split your corp future between NPC and player. I don't know what we'd do about tax, wardecs etc but the NPC could just be available and the player corp is your MAIN corp?
Again not sure it's the most well-thought out idea, but it appeals to me more than scrapping anything we already have.
Edit: Changed para for logic. |
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6225
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 16:55:28 -
[1291] - Quote
kes88 wrote:We know players in NPC corps have a lower retention rate than players in player corps Do we? I mean we have see stats that say that players that interact stay more than players who don't, but NPC corp players do also interact, and I've seen no stats to state that NPC corp players are more likely to leave.
I'd also wonder how many players in NPC corps are actually players in player corps with alts in NPC corps. If a player who is in a corp with 1 char and has 4 NPC alts who do trading and hauling leaves, that surely is a corp player leaving right? yet it would show as 4 times as much "NPC corp player leaving" as it would "player corp player leaving".
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kes88
Swords of Persephone
99
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Posted - 2015.05.30 17:11:12 -
[1292] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:kes88 wrote:We know players in NPC corps have a lower retention rate than players in player corps Do we? I mean we have see stats that say that players that interact stay more than players who don't, but NPC corp players do also interact, and I've seen no stats to state that NPC corp players are more likely to leave. I'd also wonder how many players in NPC corps are actually players in player corps with alts in NPC corps. If a player who is in a corp with 1 char and has 4 NPC alts who do trading and hauling leaves, that surely is a corp player leaving right? yet it would show as 4 times as much "NPC corp player leaving" as it would "player corp player leaving".
I'm not being funny, but I think they do and I think CCP have acknowledged that already. I'm not saying it's BECAUSE these new players are in NPC corps, they just don't leave the NPC corp for a player corp before they quit. And I don't think it's because they are more likely to leave if they are in an NPC corp, I think it's because they are more likely to leave because they are not in a good player corp.
And to the latter, don't we lose something like 90% of new players within 30 days? So it's not so much about the composition of NPC corps and whether they are full of alts or not, it's more about the fact that the experience of being in an NPC (unless it's CAS) is not sufficiently immersive.
Also, you COMPLETELY missed my point, which is why can't you have both - be in an NPC corp and a player corp? It wouldn't be hard to effect and might help the situation (although I reiterate that I have not considered the wider implications. I'm just thinking out loud). I would prefer opinions on that rather than the bothering with NPC versus player corps because that is not what I have been saying at all.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6225
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 17:13:51 -
[1293] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps? If a player corp is superior, why haven't any of you taken this opportunity to run open recruitment and show us your "better way"? Or is it because the outspoken are actually fine with npc corps, as long as they can pummel them without repercussions?
We're fine with NPC corps, as long as its members can be "pummelled without repercussions" just like everyone else in EVE, instead of enjoying an unjustifiable hisec godmode** buff. But then they may as well not exist. The only benefit to an NPC corp is that you don't get wardecced by the countless griefer corps who specialise in doing nothing but shooting easy targets.
To be honest this entire discussion is moot since CCP aren't going to remove NPC corps nor make them vulnerable to wardecs. If they did they'd only see a mass unsub and tens of thousands of one man corps being created.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6225
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 17:19:42 -
[1294] - Quote
kes88 wrote:I'm not being funny, but I think they do and I think CCP have acknowledged that already. OK, link me to where that was stated.
kes88 wrote:And to the latter, don't we lose something like 90% of new players within 30 days? So it's not so much about the composition of NPC corps and whether they are full of alts or not, it's more about the fact that the experience of being in an NPC (unless it's CAS) is not sufficiently immersive. I think it's a slightly longer timescale than that but yeah there's a high turnover rate for new players, but at no point did NPC corps get mentioned in that. The only observation made was that players who interact more tend to stay longer. That literally means what is sounds like, players who interact with others rather than "levelling their raven". I interact from and with NPC chars every day.
kes88 wrote:Also, you COMPLETELY missed my point, which is why can't you have both - be in an NPC corp and a player corp? Why would you want to? Effectively being in an NPC corp is simply the absences of being in a player corp. If you were in a player corp you wouldn't need to be in the NPC corp.
kes88 wrote:I would prefer opinions on that rather than the bothering with NPC versus player corps because that is not what I have been saying at all. But that was the basis of your reasoning. If we instead say "NPC corp players have as high a retention level as player corps" the entirety of the suggestion is rendered worthless since there's no problem for the solution being presented. So I'd say the most important part is whether or not there's actually a problem with NPC corps and player retention, which I don't believe there is.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25260
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 17:39:25 -
[1295] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:The only benefit to an NPC corp is that you don't get wardecced by the countless griefer corps who specialise in doing nothing but shooting easy targets.
All I wanted in this thread is an honest admission that this is the case. That's all I wanted to hear, thanks!
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37743
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 17:44:53 -
[1296] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:kes88 wrote:I'm not being funny, but I think they do and I think CCP have acknowledged that already. OK, link me to where that was stated.
You can take a common sense approach to interpreting the information CCP have released and on a number of occasions now they have said that higher retention is associated with joining a corp.
I just grabbed the quote from Rise from a few pages backl that he made in relation to CCP's inability to validate that griefing is a major cause of new players leaving:
CCP Rise wrote:The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish.
That was just the easiest example to grab, but it's been said multiple times now.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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kes88
Swords of Persephone
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 17:49:07 -
[1297] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:kes88 wrote:I'm not being funny, but I think they do and I think CCP have acknowledged that already. OK, link me to where that was stated. kes88 wrote:And to the latter, don't we lose something like 90% of new players within 30 days? So it's not so much about the composition of NPC corps and whether they are full of alts or not, it's more about the fact that the experience of being in an NPC (unless it's CAS) is not sufficiently immersive. I think it's a slightly longer timescale than that but yeah there's a high turnover rate for new players, but at no point did NPC corps get mentioned in that. The only observation made was that players who interact more tend to stay longer. That literally means what is sounds like, players who interact with others rather than "levelling their raven". I interact from and with NPC chars every day. kes88 wrote:Also, you COMPLETELY missed my point, which is why can't you have both - be in an NPC corp and a player corp? Why would you want to? Effectively being in an NPC corp is simply the absences of being in a player corp. If you were in a player corp you wouldn't need to be in the NPC corp. kes88 wrote:I would prefer opinions on that rather than the bothering with NPC versus player corps because that is not what I have been saying at all. But that was the basis of your reasoning. If we instead say "NPC corp players have as high a retention level as player corps" the entirety of the suggestion is rendered worthless since there's no problem for the solution being presented. So I'd say the most important part is whether or not there's actually a problem with NPC corps and player retention, which I don't believe there is.
I'm afraid I'm not going to go through this point by point - suffice it to say that I am basing my assumptions on points already covered in this thread. It is my own assumption that there is a link between player retention and immersion in the beginning weeks. As I understand it, newbies actually get contacted by CCP in their first month now and asked if they have any questions etc. This goes a little way towards what I am trying to say (and please forgive me the fact that I have not articulated my point well). It's that inital communication - a feeling that you are a part of eve, you exist and you can be involved - I think that's key in retaining our shiny new brethren.
So basicaly, I'm backtracking a little, because I can't be arsed to google the stats and find the youtube videos - but I also don't think it's a massive assumption that that initial contact in-game - the person who advises you about why you can't mix tanks, sharing the link to the cloak-mwd trick or points you in the right direction when you say "Hey, I wanna PvP/do Industry/trade" - that's what I'm trying to get at.
What I'm trying to say is I personally think there is a link between NPC corp membership and player retention because I don't think that newbies feel "part of Eve" when they are just shoved into an NPC, but I think having a big NPC available is still a good thing. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
251
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 18:29:19 -
[1298] - Quote
kes88 wrote:I also don't think it's a massive assumption that that initial contact in-game - the person who advises you about why you can't mix tanks, sharing the link to the cloak-mwd trick or points you in the right direction when you say "Hey, I wanna PvP/do Industry/trade"
That happens all the time in the State War Academy.
I've seen killmails with tons of different NPC corporation players and mixed PC, NPC corp groups.
There is no reason to discount the social interaction that takes place in NPC corporations. The only selling point of player corporations are certain game mechanics like a variable tax rate, corp bookmarks, the ability to deploy POSes, corp contacts, etc. And, on balance, NPC corporations have some beneficial game mechanics, too, but there is no mechanical reason that a player would be more social in one versus the other. None.
If you don't like to socialize, you don't like to socialize. Shoving people into a player corporation won't make them more social. It will make them isolated. Meanwhile, it will have eviscerated the CAS Combat Guild (I think that was the name.) and anything like it in any other NPC corporation.
What we KNOW is that certain players want to be able to attack anyone, anywhere, at any time, whether that is good for the game or not. They think eliminating NPC corporations furthers that goal. They are leading the discussion towards that goal. I hope you know why are you following. |
kes88
Swords of Persephone
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 18:55:39 -
[1299] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:kes88 wrote:I also don't think it's a massive assumption that that initial contact in-game - the person who advises you about why you can't mix tanks, sharing the link to the cloak-mwd trick or points you in the right direction when you say "Hey, I wanna PvP/do Industry/trade" That happens all the time in the State War Academy. I've seen killmails with tons of different NPC corporation players and mixed PC, NPC corp groups. There is no reason to discount the social interaction that takes place in NPC corporations. The only selling point of player corporations are certain game mechanics like a variable tax rate, corp bookmarks, the ability to deploy POSes, corp contacts, etc. And, on balance, NPC corporations have some beneficial game mechanics, too, but there is no mechanical reason that a player would be more social in one versus the other. None. If you don't like to socialize, you don't like to socialize. Shoving people into a player corporation won't make them more social. It will make them isolated. Meanwhile, it will have eviscerated the CAS Combat Guild (I think that was the name.) and anything like it in any other NPC corporation. What we KNOW is that certain players want to be able to attack anyone, anywhere, at any time, whether that is good for the game or not. They think eliminating NPC corporations furthers that goal. They are leading the discussion towards that goal. I hope you know why are you following.
But that's just it - I'm not discounting the role NPC corps play - I'm saying that for most new players it is insufficient to keep them here. That's why I am asking why we can't have one NPC corp membership and one player corp membership. Nobody has addressed that as being a possibility. All I seem to be getting it why am I hating on NPC corps (I'm really not) and given that I am hating on NPC corps (I'm not) why would I want to keep them. Seriously, why not have both? The greater the availability of avenues for communication, the greater the likelihood that newbies will engage, surely?
The problem with being put in an NPC on starting eve is that you are one of hundreds in that corp - I absolutely loved being in CAS but I was lucky. Some people don't know where to begin and don't even speak in their corp chat. Give them lots of opportunties to ask questions - and as I said - having someone say "Hey, how you doing?" makes a difference in the overwhelming NPE. It's not the people who "don't like to socialize" who are the problem, it's the people who want to be a part of Eve but feel utterly overwhelmed and don't have the support that they need. ie want to socialize but don't even know where to begin. Am I making any sense?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 19:02:33 -
[1300] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else.
You're missing the point.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13219
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 19:34:47 -
[1301] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else. You're missing the point.
No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport.
In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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kes88
Swords of Persephone
100
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 19:42:17 -
[1302] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else. You're missing the point. No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport. In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.
Hopefully getting the wee one stuck in at an early age, lol. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13220
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 19:53:36 -
[1303] - Quote
kes88 wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else. You're missing the point. No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport. In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky. Hopefully getting the wee one stuck in at an early age, lol.
Ostensibly, yes, but it's mostly that the flashing images keeps him amused, and therefore not crying. My wife isn't in good health, so I take the baby a lot on my days off.
My older daughter? Oh, she loves it when I play games, she yells at me to kill them harder.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
252
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 20:03:33 -
[1304] - Quote
kes88 wrote:why [can't we] have one NPC corp membership and one player corp membership . . . The greater the availability of avenues for communication, the greater the likelihood that newbies will engage, surely? . . . Give them lots of opportunties to ask questions
Agreed.
People have more than one identity that they wish to express. An "American" can also be a "doctor" and a "mother" or "father". Similarly, a "Caldari" can also be a "pirate" and a "recruiter" or "chief executive officer".
One single channel to express that all could be stifling. On the other end, though, too many channels might disperse the impetus for socialization. One avenue or opportunity might not be enough to express a player's full potential. Too many opportunities might paralyze a player with confusion, information fatigue, and indecision.
Have you visited this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=401219&find=unread? I have only skimmed it, but it seems to address some of what we're talking about here. |
Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
394
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 20:21:13 -
[1305] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Only for one side.
Getting blown up is content every bit as much as blowing up someone else. You're missing the point. No, I'm really not. My dumb ass lost an Ashimmu to a corp we decced the other day just a few hours ago, and it was still content, I still had fun, and I still acknowledged their "gf" in local. That's called playing the game, and being a good sport. In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky.
Why did you dec a corp that could shoot back? Sounds like a target selection error to me. And where were your neutral logi?
If you need to lessons in highsec mercing I'd be glad to help. Lend me the services of your neutral scouts and I'll show you how it's done. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
252
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 20:25:48 -
[1306] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:In other news, as mentioned before, trying to play EVE with a baby on your lap is tricky . . . the flashing images keeps him amused
Could be why some people just mine in high sec in an NPC corporation.
Have you tried Christmas lights? I find the all-blue sets to be particularly soothing but the sets with red lights might be more engaging. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13220
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Posted - 2015.05.30 21:25:25 -
[1307] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:And where were your neutral logi?
I don't use any, I never have.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6228
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 22:43:19 -
[1308] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:kes88 wrote:I'm not being funny, but I think they do and I think CCP have acknowledged that already. OK, link me to where that was stated. You can take a common sense approach to interpreting the information CCP have released and on a number of occasions now they have said that higher retention is associated with joining a corp. I just grabbed the quote from Rise from a few pages back that he made in relation to CCP's inability to validate that griefing is a major cause of new players leaving: CCP Rise wrote:The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish. That was just the easiest example to grab, but it's been said multiple times now in relation to joining a corp being an indicator of higher retention. That quote shows corps in a list of ways to be social, just like I said. That's not stating that those who join corps are retained more than those that don't, since people in NPC corps also use the market and contract systems and PvP. By "take a common sense approach" what you really mean is "make it up because that's what you want to be true". I'm sure if NPC corps were such a big hole in player retention CCP would have dealt with it long ago, so common sense tells us that NPC corps aren't all that bad.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6228
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 22:49:30 -
[1309] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:The only benefit to an NPC corp is that you don't get wardecced by the countless griefer corps who specialise in doing nothing but shooting easy targets. All I wanted in this thread is an honest admission that this is the case. That's all I wanted to hear, thanks! Always glad to help out
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1593
|
Posted - 2015.05.30 22:57:06 -
[1310] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:The only benefit to an NPC corp is that you don't get wardecced by the countless griefer corps who specialise in doing nothing but shooting easy targets. All I wanted in this thread is an honest admission that this is the case. That's all I wanted to hear, thanks!
It's not completely true, though. The other benefit is an instant, free, automatic social group. The problem, as kes88 has pointed out repeatedly, is that social groups are large enough and the new players often overwhelmed enough that they end up being isolating instead of welcoming.
Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
I voted in CSM X!
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
394
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 00:23:42 -
[1311] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Demerius Xenocratus wrote:And where were your neutral logi?
I don't use any, I never have.
Damn you guys are getting wrecked by that corp. Siegfried lost a brutix and 2 logi a few hours after the Ashimmu. Do you need some help?
That kind of showing won't get you a write-up on minerbumping I'm afraid.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13221
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 00:41:09 -
[1312] - Quote
It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Demerius Xenocratus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
394
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 00:46:23 -
[1313] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk.
Brawling a properly fit rattlesnake is not my idea of fun. What were you thinking?
Oh. You tried to eat a bait Maller. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13221
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 00:52:19 -
[1314] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:It shouldn't even surprise me that someone like you can't figure out that fun isn't measured in isk. Brawling a properly fit rattlesnake is not my idea of fun. What were you thinking?
Thought I could chance a moment to grab my kid, since he was crying. *shrugs*
If it flies, it dies. I'm no exception.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37744
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 02:56:40 -
[1315] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:I just grabbed the quote from Rise from a few pages back that he made in relation to CCP's inability to validate that griefing is a major cause of new players leaving: CCP Rise wrote:The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc. Isolating players away from the actual sandbox seems very contrary to what we would like to accomplish. That quote shows corps in a list of ways to be social, just like I said. That's not stating that those who join corps are retained more than those that don't, since people in NPC corps also use the market and contract systems and PvP. By "take a common sense approach" what you really mean is "make it up because that's what you want to be true". I'm sure if NPC corps were such a big hole in player retention CCP would have dealt with it long ago, so common sense tells us that NPC corps aren't all that bad.
No, I don't mean make it up at all. CCP have said that joining a Corp is a strong indicator of higher retention on multiple occasions.
It's one of many indicators and I don't believe they were implying that there is only one pathway to retention. People who subscribe and remain in NPC Corps as main characters are a perfect example counter to that type of suggestion. On the whole, joining a Corp is a strong indicator of a higher chance of retention.
You are free to interpret that how you like, but I think most people would equate that to mean that new players that join player Corps have a higher chance of fitting into the 10% of long term retained players.
All of us might want CCP to release the exact wording needed to provide the 100% proof to change our mind. Others are happy to make conclusions from the wording that CCP do use, rather than discount what they say because it isn't verbatim with what I would consider to be the only 100% version of the wording.
In the end, it's just communication and that's not an exact science.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
196
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 06:28:13 -
[1316] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:CCP Punkturis wrote:However with aggression rules, there is no such spectrum of decisions. The only GÇÿchoiceGÇÖ is the binary option of either joining a corp where other players can shoot you, or simply not joining a corp with others at all. For many players, their optimal choice is therefore to avoid signing up to a corp altogether, and so they inevitably miss out on many of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique. In this case, different wording, but same overall message - many players that don't join a corp inevitably miss out on a lot of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique.
So this is a conversation we (CAS people) are literally had just a short while ago with a person who has been in Scope for less than one day.
Started with her asking us in our combat SIG chat how to find corp chat again.
After a bit of questioning, turns out she's trying to find CAS corp chat specifically.
She applied to a player corp, realized it was a mistake for her, and cancelled the application too late - she was already accepted. Two hours later, she dropped corp and was in Scope.
This is a player less than two months into the game.
She was very active in CAS corp chat, and misses the folks there.
We pointed her towards some other SIG channels, advised her to file a support ticket requesting to be put back into CAS, cross fingers and hope for the best. (And some contingency plans if the petition was denied.)
She expressed appreciation for how we help each other out, and logged off.
I'm not trying to present this as anything but a single anecdotal incident - just thought it was an interesting anecdote related to the subject at hand.
I hadn't read CCP Punkturis's devblog on friendly fire before. I'm now disappointed that she associates not joining a player corp with missing out on many meaningful social interactions for many players. "Inevitably" no less! So inaccurate...
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37746
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 07:01:37 -
[1317] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:I hadn't read CCP Punkturis's devblog on friendly fire before. I'm now disappointed that she associates not joining a player corp with missing out on many meaningful social interactions for many players. "Inevitably" no less! So inaccurate...
These aren't legal documents, they are just casual conversations in devblogs, the forum and presentations. I'm sure she could have written something different without that word and still had the same overall meaning to her message.
So I don't think the exact wording is all that critical except in posts like official rulings and policy.
Player corps aren't the ideal choice for everyone. They are one of the factors that lead to higher retention of new players on the whole.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
73
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 07:17:08 -
[1318] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:war decs are not there to harass new players. war decs would exist even if they where not a mechanic in the game, i know many games that don't have a war dec mechanic but that doesn't stop one group attacking another. you remove war decs and you remove an important part of the game, conflict, which drives EVE. high sec wars as also an important way for players to enter small scale PVP that's not to take away from some high sec wars which are just as much fun as low of null sec combat, some would say even better. each to their own i say from what you've just said i can only assume that you'd like an area where no one can shoot at you while you mine and mission. that's never going to happen, what makes you think it would is beyond me, we can never have an area where you can reap rewards without risk. no matter where you are in EVE when you undock from a station you consent to combat. the quicker a new player gets used to this the better. because that's how it is in EVE. if any player refuses to accept that then it's best you stay docked when you get a war dec
So they don't add anything to the game like I said. Null corps don't hang out in high sec, and have to go through low sec anyways, so no real reason to chase a nullbear into high sec, when you can effectively stop operations by battle in null/low sec. Like you said conflict would happen without it.
What the heck is wrong with you? You can do small scale PVP anywhere. Small scale PVP in high sec? The OP is about getting new players into larger scale activities, maybe even PVP like on the commercials, not small scale PVP . That is the silliest excuse for picking on new players I have ever heard. Besides, I remember a game without war decs. It also had small scale PVP.
I wouldn't mind new players having an area where they can do stuff where people don't have the free range of null sec to kill them while they do mining and PVE. Why not? I've known many players who started playing the game under those conditions. The game was fine then, and those players seem fine now. What benefit does war decing a new player do? What good reason is there to war dec a high sec corp? Only thing I've heard is to attack bots, which CCP could manage on their own.
And CCP should look at the risk v. reward issue you mentioned. It has been broken for a long time, and risk and reward is a perception so no one is really wrong if they argue on either side. If you have good numbers clearly showing how all riskier types of EVE activities pay off better than less riskier activities, I'd like to see them. I assume you don't have any evidence, and are regurgitating propaganda from a concept that died almost a decade ago. I really wish you could have experienced the old EVE. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1657
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 08:42:24 -
[1319] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that.
Not sure if i would like to hang out with people from CODE.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
253
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 09:28:02 -
[1320] - Quote
CCP Punkturis wrote:With hangar access permissions, you can make choices about how much you wish to expose your corp to the risk of theft . . . However with aggression rules, there is no such spectrum of decisions [no risk or some risk or much risk]. The only GÇÿchoiceGÇÖ is the binary option of either joining a corp where other players can shoot you, or simply not joining a corp with others at all [no risk or much risk]. For many players, their optimal choice is therefore to avoid signing up to a corp altogether, and so they inevitably miss out on many of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique.
Similarly, as a player interested in running a corp for others, you have no ability to choose the level of aggression-related risk that you want for your members. Again the optimal GÇÿchoiceGÇÖ for some becomes running a corp containing only alts, or just staying in an NPC corp.
Or in other words . . .
Quote:Some corp mechanics allow players to limit their risks. Corp-member-on-corp-member aggression does not allow for limiting risk. We're going to change it. Then, players who prefer more limited risk of corp-member-on-corp-member aggression will want to join corps more. With more options, these players will (inevitably) have more opportunities for social interactions.
So, having two options for social interaction leads to more social interaction than only having one option . . . wow! Wuuuuuut?!
The quote doesn't say they want to discourage NPC corp membership. Nor does it really say they want to encourage player corp membership. What it says is that player corp membership isn't really an option for many players because they won't risk getting AWOXed by their corpmates, and that the change CCP is making to corporation mechanics will give such players the option to join a player corporation, albeit with friendly-fire DISABLED, but thusly still increasing their potential for social interaction by giving them an alternative to NPC corporation membership.
Compare:
"Hiking is fun. Swimming is fun. Bob won't swim with sharks in the pool. We'll let sharks be taken out of the pool. Bob will be able to have more fun."
"Hiking is fun. Swimming is more fun. Bob likes to hike. We should break Bob's legs and throw Bob in the pool."
See the difference? |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37749
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 11:16:32 -
[1321] - Quote
There is a lot more that has been said than those couple of things. It's all relevant and yes, seeing more players move to player Corps is one of those things that has been said.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13222
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 11:30:15 -
[1322] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that. Not sure if i would like to hang out with people from CODE.
Why might that be?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Nevil Oscillator
191
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 11:34:04 -
[1323] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Compare:
"Hiking is fun. Swimming is fun. Bob won't swim with sharks in the pool. We'll let sharks be taken out of the pool. Bob will be able to have more fun."
"Hiking is fun. Swimming is more fun. Bob likes to hike. We should break Bob's legs and throw Bob in the pool."
See the difference?
What do you expect a piranha to say ? Their perspective and goals are quite narrow |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37751
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 11:46:43 -
[1324] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:What do you expect a piranha to say ? Their perspective and goals are quite narrow
Why are CCP piranhas? What's wrong with them trying to increase player retention?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Nevil Oscillator
191
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 17:38:56 -
[1325] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:What do you expect a piranha to say ? Their perspective and goals are quite narrow Why are CCP piranhas? What's wrong with them trying to increase player retention?
CCP said lets break peoples legs and throw them in water infested with flesh devouring aquatic creatures of course |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
522
|
Posted - 2015.05.31 22:09:29 -
[1326] - Quote
I have removed a troll post.
Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
Reminder to keep on topic and be respectful. I've been in this thread too many times already.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Nevil Oscillator
191
|
Posted - 2015.06.01 00:02:28 -
[1327] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:March rabbit wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that. Not sure if i would like to hang out with people from CODE. Why might that be?
I think they smart bombed my shuttle once and took my pod down to half armor, using a cruiser that subsequently got concorded. They then sent me a message threatening to do it again if I didn't pay them xxx million isk.
I paid them and it hasn't happened again.
|
Aoife Fraoch
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
68
|
Posted - 2015.06.01 03:19:17 -
[1328] - Quote
I should have known procrastinating on the forums when I took a week off work to focus on study was a bad idea. It also doesn't help that it's for post grad statistics, especially with how its being discussed here.
First things first, there are two presentations that are relevant to this. The first is CCP Rise and the second is CCP Quant. The data sets that the both are discussing are observational sets. This is not experimental data, it will not be neat or easy to use and is by definition a little fuzzy. Fortunately we have this whole field of math dedicated to dealing with these kinds of problems.
Second, for the love of Bob please stop trying to make the data say things it is not saying. Just stop. It gets annoying. Please at least understand what the data actually represents and where it is coming from, how it was collectd and the methods that were used to analyse it.
TL;DR;
- CCP Rise didn't talk about NPC corps in his main presentation.
- CCP Quant's segmentation model didn't account for corp type, only behaviour.
- The segmentation model looked at tenure and game time, unsurprisingly those that did a lot in the game or were social stayed for longer.
- The decision tree did discuss corps and corp size for retention, this was after the player killed node. (Being blown up is MORE 'important' than if you are in a NPC corp)
- My takeway; get people to do more things faster to get them to stay.
The First Bit by CCP Rise (Ganking in first 15 days)
Right so first up they are looking at 80,000 users. And they are looking for deathers in the first 15 days and if the killers were nuked by concord et al. This group was split into killed legally, illegally or not. Retention was then looked at for each of these groups.
So from here in the talk we have 85% not killed (68,000), 13.5% killed legally (10,800) and 1% ganked (800). I am asssuming there was some rounding. And from here CCP Rise notes that Ganked were most likely to stay, followed by legally killed and then not killed. Thats it. Thats all the data says for this one. It doesn't say anything else. From here you might come up with a new hypothesis to test and a new test to design, but thats all (Sounds like it was a comparison of means I guess).
The Second Bit gets interesting by CCP Quant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-jfvjMoe9Y
bit.ly/199jryz
Now this one is interesting. Incidently correlation does matter for this sort of analysis, but it is not the main tools used. I believe he even mentioned Principle Componant Analysis (CPA) for dimension reduction and k-means for the actual clustering. After all what was presented was a multi factor model (Involving a bunch of fun dimension reduction and factor analysis. I suspect eigenvalues were involved too.). The aim of these techniques is to take known data, in this case behaviour stats, and use that to define and understand latent or unmeasurable attributes, like what kind of a player you are.
The bits of the presentation about segmentation are the most relevant to this discusion, and frankly it is very interesting stuff. This is the bit where we can look at player activity and groupings. You can also follow along with how different variables were used to define factors, and then how those factors were then used to identify segments (You may notice that kind of corp is not a variable by the way, these are behavioural variables).
Coming from the slides themselves, here are CCP Quant's key takeaways:
Quote:
Professionals and Entrepreneurs are are very active, playing almost every part of the game. They are the backbone of EVE Online and are thus very valuable to us.
Many players play mainly for the Social element. This is where we can really improve, by enabling these players to interact with EVE outside the client, e.g. through moble playforms.
The Passive segment is basically the last bus-stop. We keep a close eye on the amount of players that transition into the Passive segment, and the path to it.
The part of the presentation about decision trees was also very interesting. The short of that one if that dying in a fire due to another player was a common factor in those that made it from the first three months to the fourth. However this one was also caveted.
Size of the corporation joined was another factor he mentioned as mattering for those that did get blown up (remember this is a decision tree). As well as mining for those who did not get their ship blown up. It seems that if you didn't explode, mining meant you were more likely to stay than those who were not.
However CCP Quant did not make any real hard and fast conclusions in his presentation on this. In fact he made a point of stating that this helped them identify new things to test and, I am assuming this part, based on variables they have identified to test for. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
435
|
Posted - 2015.06.01 23:09:27 -
[1329] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:BrundleMeth wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yuri Ostrovskoy wrote:So over the last 60 pages, why haven't we seen anyone actually offer any incentives to join thier corps?
For my part, I simply haven't seen anyone posting on the NPC side who I'd want to hang out with. The majority of you are only posting here to defend the racket you have going, and I wouldn't be interested in playing the game with people like that. I have no racket going...and I am an extremely nice guy... Want to join CODE? Our wardec arm has finally finished reorganizing, and we have a bunch of decs going. Or you can join New Order Logistics, and get started with some ganking. We happily accept alts, although if you're just there to spy on our teamspeak you will probably be purged. The only condition is that you have to guess the password to the minerbumping channel. But it should be a pretty easy guess.
CODE? New Order? That james 315 prick? I'd rather stick knives in my nutz... |
Yuri Ostrovskoy
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
34
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 01:18:42 -
[1330] - Quote
ISD Decoy wrote:I have removed a troll post. Quote:5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. Reminder to keep on topic and be respectful. I've been in this thread too many times already.
Honestly ya just might wanna lock this one down then. We've got to many combative people, myself included, large egos, stubborn "nu-uh"ers, and "well, my turrets bigger than yours, and throws harder shells at her".
The points on both sides have been made, discussed, beaten to death, and on and on. |
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Nevil Oscillator
192
|
Posted - 2015.06.02 11:08:31 -
[1331] - Quote
Aoife Fraoch wrote:. Fortunately we have this whole field of math dedicated to dealing with these kinds of problems.
If they can't get the basics right, how do you expect them to understand more complicated concepts ?
|
Nevil Oscillator
192
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 06:40:56 -
[1332] - Quote
I think wardecs would be much more interesting if they were a default of 2 days for 20mil |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 07:15:24 -
[1333] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:I think wardecs would be much more interesting if they were a default of 2 days for 20mil
is that 2 days worth of online and undocked time ? or 2 days worth of logged off ? |
Nevil Oscillator
192
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 07:50:09 -
[1334] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:I think wardecs would be much more interesting if they were a default of 2 days for 20mil is that 2 days worth of online and undocked time ? or 2 days worth of logged off ?
Yeah it would be nice to force people to be doing what they would normally be doing while they are wardeced but no.. Wardec allows you to interupt another corporations activities if you have enough firepower to scare them, it doesn't force them to line up and get shot unless their own greed makes them take the risk. With a smaller repeatable wardec it would allow a quick and over with show of force and for a much hated corp to be constantly in threat from it's many victims that want payback. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 12:40:39 -
[1335] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:I think wardecs would be much more interesting if they were a default of 2 days for 20mil is that 2 days worth of online and undocked time ? or 2 days worth of logged off ? Yeah it would be nice to force people to be doing what they would normally be doing while they are wardeced but no.. Wardec allows you to interupt another corporations activities if you have enough firepower to scare them, it doesn't force them to line up and get shot unless their own greed makes them take the risk. With a smaller repeatable wardec it would allow a quick and over with show of force and for a much hated corp to be constantly in threat from it's many victims that want payback. The smaller charge is less ISK wasted if the wardeced corp simply ducks out of sight and is more accessible to less thrifty corporations.
i asked about the 2 day timer because with a war dec being shorter it's too easy to just log off for 2 days,, but a week. not so easy
you can't force people to play the game as you want and it's rather silly to expect it, some love pvp, some like it and some hate it.
war dec fees are not expensive and there is nothing to stop you retracting the war dec after 24 hours of action leaving you another 24 hours of pew pew, there's your 2 days, If the enemy engages cool, or as you put it get greedy and do silly shite during a war then ya get what ya want kinda. but if they decide to dock up and wait it out there is nothing you can do except extend the war dec until you get what you're expecting from the war dec.
war decs happen for all sorts of reasons, bored, want pvp, it's good for content, so a war now and then isn't a bad thing.
also i've known CEO's to pay a corp to dec his own corp, ya know,, keep things exciting and the members on their toes.
also clears out the lazy fecks who are better off gone. nothing like a war to cut the fat.
hell some of the best friends i've met in EVE where war dec targets in the past, some even joined our corp.
bottom line is 2 days is too short a timer for anyone to really care. there's always low sec and 0.0 no shortage of targets to shoot so why not just head out there and not worry about paying concord for PVP or giving your targets a warning. kinda brings us back to people playing EVE how they want and how forcing people to play to your style isn't always a good thing.
perhaps the current system is as good as it gets?
people are lazy and always want the quick fix answer to everything, there is no quick fix to anything in EVE, no matter what you do there is always going to be some that are upset by it. most get over it and get on with it.
this thread is going in circles now, we all know well why players stay in NPC corps, most threads would have been locked by now. i can only assume that CCP is worried about NPC corps in some way and want to do something about them and this thread is feeding them with some sort of feedback. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 13:15:30 -
[1336] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
What the heck is wrong with you? You can do small scale PVP anywhere. Small scale PVP in high sec? The OP is about getting new players into larger scale activities, maybe even PVP like on the commercials, not small scale PVP . That is the silliest excuse for picking on new players I have ever heard. Besides, I remember a game without war decs. It also had small scale PVP.
nothing wrong with me at all i never said anything about small scale PVP not being able to happen anywhere. i'm not making excuses for anyone picking on new players, i'm not a pick on anyone kind of person anyway.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I wouldn't mind new players having an area where they can do stuff where people don't have the free range of null sec to kill them while they do mining and PVE. Why not? I've known many players who started playing the game under those conditions. The game was fine then, and those players seem fine now. What benefit does war decing a new player do? What good reason is there to war dec a high sec corp? Only thing I've heard is to attack bots, which CCP could manage on their own.
because you can't create an area where you can make isk without risk that's why. there are many reasons for war decs you're trying to make out there isn't and that's just nonsense.
Aza Ebanu wrote:
And CCP should look at the risk v. reward issue you mentioned. It has been broken for a long time, and risk and reward is a perception so no one is really wrong if they argue on either side. If you have good numbers clearly showing how all riskier types of EVE activities pay off better than less riskier activities, I'd like to see them. I assume you don't have any evidence, and are regurgitating propaganda from a concept that died almost a decade ago. I really wish you could have experienced the old EVE.
there is risk related to reward, how is bringing your corp into a wh, investing billions into it and reaping the rewards from the wh not risk VS reward ? you could be attacked after a few days and lose everything.
what about setting up in 0.0 and spending a lot of effort and time building your little empire and all the time reaping in the rewards of the area moons and so on only to be attacked and lose it all, this is not risk = reward?
i agree it's broken in some areas of the game but not everywhere.
there are many ways to make isk in EVE without any risk at all. so i've no idea why you'd assume i should have some metrics to back up a comment on the forums.
you really wish i could have experienced the old EVE? i'm playing since 2007 is that not old enough lol.
PS: actually played in 2006, in 2007 i decided to stick around. |
Digits Kho
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
57
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 14:53:48 -
[1337] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
I think new players ( we talking about them rite?) dont know about wardecs and more so about their mechanics. I mean when i started playing, i didnt know anything about wardecs till i actualy got my ship shotdown. So, IMO, wars arnt the reason. I was however at one point concerned about the whole low sp thing but after i opened the corp finder i wasnt concerned anymore.
Mby some people just dun know about corp finder lel. |
Nevil Oscillator
192
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 18:20:12 -
[1338] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
i asked about the 2 day timer because with a war dec being shorter it's too easy to just log off for 2 days,, but a week. not so easy
you can't force people to play the game as you want and it's rather silly to expect it, some love pvp, some like it and some hate it.
.
That isn't relevant because having the minimum length for a war dec shorter is of no advantage to the person getting war decced, it doesn't end after 2 days if it is not over.
Wardecs are expensive if your target is a bunch of thrashers ganking with meta 1 guns, how many do you need to kill before it remotely matches your expense ? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6246
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 18:29:30 -
[1339] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:because you can't create an area where you can make isk without risk that's why. there are many reasons for war decs you're trying to make out there isn't and that's just nonsense. Let's just be clear here, when you say "risk", you mean "risk of another player shooting you in the face", because any activity has risk. As for an area without risk of being shot there's definitely ways to make isk with zero risk of being shot. Try to shoot my traders or industrialists, I guarantee you are unable to do it since they never undock, and yet they make the vast majority of my isk.
With wardecs, the most common reason to dec somone is for easy kills. This is why nearly 90% of all wardecs in which kills were made were won by the aggressor, and why three quarters of wars where kills were scored were completely one sided in favour of the aggressor. Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Nevil Oscillator
192
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 18:51:44 -
[1340] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:
With wardecs, the most common reason to dec somone is for easy kills. This is why nearly 90% of all wardecs in which kills were made were won by the aggressor.
I imagine most war decs are declared by someone who thinks they can win. |
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25399
|
Posted - 2015.06.03 21:55:05 -
[1341] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:With wardecs, the most common reason to dec somone is for easy kills. This is why nearly 90% of all wardecs in which kills were made were won by the aggressor, and why three quarters of wars where kills were scored were completely one sided in favour of the aggressor. Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig.
With freighter ganks, the most common reason to blap the ship is for easy kills. This is why 100% of all freighter ganks which end in kills were won by the aggressor, and why 100% of freighter ganks where kills were scored were completely one sided in favour of the aggressor. Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig.
Lucas, am I doing it right? By your logic should we ban freighter ganks too?
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 00:02:44 -
[1342] - Quote
Sybyyl wrote:With freighter ganks, the most common reason to blap the ship is for easy kills. This is why 100% of all freighter ganks which end in kills were won by the aggressor, and why 100% of freighter ganks where kills were scored were completely one sided in favour of the aggressor. Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig.
Lucas, am I doing it right? By your logic should we ban freighter ganks too?
Suicide ganks in high sec:
Every ship on a suicide gank mail is a loss, that includes the aggressor's ships.
Not all attempted ganks even result in a freighter being destroyed.
Not all ganks that result in a freighter being destroyed are profitable.
Killrights can help to extend the aggressor's pain and skew the math in favor of the "defender".
Security standing loss does take its toll, also. Sometimes, gankers don't make it to their own party.
But, yeah, other than that, it's pretty much the same as war dec'ing hapless scrubs and carebears. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
465
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 04:40:37 -
[1343] - Quote
There are significant differences between wardecs and suicide ganking. The most important one is that you can easily avoid being ganked. Wardecs throw a corp into "nullsec".
I'm my own NPC alt.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6246
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 06:47:44 -
[1344] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:With wardecs, the most common reason to dec somone is for easy kills. This is why nearly 90% of all wardecs in which kills were made were won by the aggressor, and why three quarters of wars where kills were scored were completely one sided in favour of the aggressor. Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig. With freighter ganks, the most common reason to blap the ship is for easy kills. This is why 100% of all freighter ganks which end in kills were won by the aggressor, and why 100% of freighter ganks where kills were scored were completely one sided in favour of the aggressor. Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig. Lucas, am I doing it right? By your logic should we ban freighter ganks too? I didn't say we should ban wardecs, neither did I pick an unreasonable measure of stats. It's just a fact that people go after easy targets when declaring war. It's not their fault, the system doesn't reward you for picking a challenge, so the weaker the target the better. Well done on wildly missing the point though.
Please by all means proceed to believe that the wardec system is fine as is. We already know CCP don't believe it is, so it's going to change. The real question is, when it does will you be too busy closing your eyes sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalala" to offer realistic suggestions to how to balance it out?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
77
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 06:52:27 -
[1345] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:There are significant differences between wardecs and suicide ganking. The most important one is that you can easily avoid being ganked. Wardecs throw a corp into "nullsec".
So much this. |
Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1794
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 07:25:09 -
[1346] - Quote
And I'm lost when it comes to this wardec think. I mean I kinda get it, as up until about 11 months ago I was in a position where they seemed scary as I was pretty vulnerable back then to it. One man corp, no backup, assets in space... all that jive.
Of course I also wasn't really worth dropping the dec fee unless someone really wanted to bash my POS. (Or was REALLY annoyed with me)
Then I was recruited into an alliance that does wars. Kind of a radical change and I'll be honest, the first couple months were intimidating. After a while I started to relax a bit, once I realized that there was no boogeyman under my bunk. I did my thing as merrily as I could while trying to learn stuff and was mostly uninterrupted. I did get blapped a few times while suspect baiting, but that was either by my intended target or others who were engaged in similar activities and managed to pick the same target as I did.
Not once did scary warmongers come in and maul me, because I stayed vigilant during the time I was learning. I kept my eyes sharp and GTFO whenever things looked hot. Now, after nearly a year of almost constant war (we sometimes take short breaks) I'm pretty used to it and am learning to become an active participant. I'm still terribad at hunting, but I'm trying.
My point, if you could call it that, is that war isn't the end of the world. You can do stuff while wardecced, you just have to keep a sharp eye on your surroundings and exercise reasonable levels of paranoia. Heck, the war-ponents are clearly marked for you in local, which is more than you can say about some gankers. Unreasonable levels of paranoia prevent you from doing things, cause you to freeze up and hide under your bunk. Fear is what ruins the game for you at that point.
*shrug*
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 08:34:13 -
[1347] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
i asked about the 2 day timer because with a war dec being shorter it's too easy to just log off for 2 days,, but a week. not so easy
you can't force people to play the game as you want and it's rather silly to expect it, some love pvp, some like it and some hate it.
.
That isn't relevant because having the minimum length for a war dec shorter is of no advantage to the person getting war decced, it doesn't end after 2 days if it is not over. Wardecs are expensive if your target is a bunch of thrashers ganking with meta 1 guns, how many do you need to kill before it remotely matches your expense ?
how would it not be an advantage if the dec was only 2 days. a 2 day dec wouldn't be designed to wipe a corp out,, it would be a bash and run type of dec. 2 days doesn't bother anyone really unless you've a timer on a pos say. but even then players will stayed logged off and not care about the tower getting bashed.
this is all just talk anyway, i've no data to say a 2 day war dec system would be good or bad or an advantage or not. it just sounds silly and easy to avoid. i'm sure CCP keep it at a week for a reason and the costs the same
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 08:46:38 -
[1348] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:because you can't create an area where you can make isk without risk that's why. there are many reasons for war decs you're trying to make out there isn't and that's just nonsense. Let's just be clear here, when you say "risk", you mean "risk of another player shooting you in the face", because any activity has risk. As for an area without risk of being shot there's definitely ways to make isk with zero risk of being shot. Try to shoot my traders or industrialists, I guarantee you are unable to do it since they never undock, and yet they make the vast majority of my isk. With wardecs, the most common reason to dec somone is for easy kills. This is why nearly 90% of all wardecs in which kills were made were won by the aggressor, and why three quarters of wars where kills were scored were completely one sided in favour of the aggressor. Dress up a pig all you want, it's still a pig.
hiya lucas hope ya well. yup it's a pig alright, i'm not trying to dress it up at all, us vets can boast about our alts that have great market muscle and how easy us vets find it is to make isk. i never said anything to dismiss that. but it's not the norm lucas, we wouldn't be making isk from them alts if everyone was doing it.
yes i was talking about another player shooting you in the face, not everyone is smart enough to know how to deal with war decs or know how to corner a market. sure you could buy plex and never undock. lol i remember a guy in low sec that never undocked, when someone entered the system he was in he'd type in local,, 10m and i leave you alone, the amount of players that paid was laughable,, he never undocked lol, so yea i get the whole make isk easy without risk but not everyone wants to play that way, we all know people who love the risk. but not everyone, that's my whole point, people play as they want and so they should.
i was never a fan of the war dec system for many reasons but it's needed and i'm not sure there is a better way to do it.
can't get the image of a pig dressed up now lmao,, but so true man and i wasn't trying to dress it up. i honestly believe it's needed but have no idea how to make it better than it is, it's an important part of EVE. |
Demica Diaz
SE-1
144
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 09:26:06 -
[1349] - Quote
Speaking from own experience; As much as I love EVE online I play it very casually. I feel like many corps would just dislike player who hardly is online or is offline for week or two every month. But I feel to add that not all players who sit in NPC corp might be in there just because War Decs. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
467
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 11:09:36 -
[1350] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Speaking from own experience; As much as I love EVE online I play it very casually. I feel like many corps would just dislike player who hardly is online or is offline for week or two every month. But I feel to add that not all players who sit in NPC corp might be in there just because War Decs.
I would say player corps are not the right structure for nomadic and casual players without interest in managing structures ... that's why the "clubs" are needed. Even if you try creating a corp full of casuals, there will sooner than later be conflicts around the shared assets and the roles/competencies. Corps are dictatorships like the corps in RL, if they don't follow a common goal, they will die.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13296
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 11:24:43 -
[1351] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:
With wardecs, the most common reason to dec somone is for easy kills. This is why nearly 90% of all wardecs in which kills were made were won by the aggressor.
I imagine most war decs are declared by someone who thinks they can win.
Poland should have dec dodged.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13296
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Posted - 2015.06.04 11:46:29 -
[1352] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:There are significant differences between wardecs and suicide ganking. The most important one is that you can easily avoid being ganked. Wardecs throw a corp into "nullsec".
Maybe if you live in a trade hub. My old alliance, The ROC, was decced by Marmite for a little over two months because we pissed off some lowsec entity with deep pockets.
The entire time, they had a five man presence in Rens every time I was logged in to see them. More, with logi and scouts. But we lived less than half a dozen jumps from Rens, we did not move, and I never saw them on grid once. I was missioning in a faction battleship the whole time, helping newbies with salvage and standings. Never lost it, never even got in danger of losing it. At one point I had to leave my keyboard for two hours because my building had a fire drill that went awry, and my battleship was STILL alive. (I was actually disappointed that I was still alive)
Were our miners getting killed? You betcha, but they were afk, they would have died to a suicide ganker every bit as much as to Marmite.
"nullsec"? Don't make me laugh. Wardecs or no wardecs, highsec is exceedingly safe.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5601
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 13:04:32 -
[1353] - Quote
Removed an off topic post.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Nevil Oscillator
193
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 13:15:17 -
[1354] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:how would it not be an advantage if the dec was only 2 days. a 2 day dec wouldn't be designed to wipe a corp out,, it would be a bash and run type of dec. 2 days doesn't bother anyone really unless you've a timer on a pos say. but even then players will stayed logged off and not care about the tower getting bashed. this is all just talk anyway, i've no data to say a 2 day war dec system would be good or bad or an advantage or not. it just sounds silly and easy to avoid. i'm sure CCP keep it at a week for a reason and the costs the same
Come on Trust this one is really easy, when you get to the end of the 2 days the aggressor can just wardec them again if that isn't long enough. Incidentally the same as currently can if 7 days isn't long enough. The time only serves to provide a minimum commitment to the war by the aggressor, it helps the defender in no way at all. |
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
1086
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 13:16:22 -
[1355] - Quote
I frequently got the impression that wardecs are a whole lot more personal for the decced party. Some poor guy was contacting me over boogieman stories he's been told by his directors, and left flabbergasted when it was actually just someone paying for this one undock to be camped. |
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
468
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 13:32:04 -
[1356] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"nullsec"? Don't make me laugh. Wardecs or no wardecs, highsec is exceedingly safe.
Though some say nullsec is safer than highsec ...
... but then war deccers are sh** in hunting people.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
16080
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 13:35:57 -
[1357] - Quote
Don Pera Saissore wrote:What about those who join nullsec corps and quit because they get bored of exploration and gatecamps because thats the only thing they can do.
They quit because like many who play MMOs these days they feel the must be spoon fed content.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13299
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Posted - 2015.06.04 13:37:40 -
[1358] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"nullsec"? Don't make me laugh. Wardecs or no wardecs, highsec is exceedingly safe.
Though some say nullsec is safer than highsec ... ... but then war deccers are sh** in hunting people.
The skill of the person doing the hunting really isn't all that relevant.
Bad or good, everyone shows up in local.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Nevil Oscillator
193
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 13:37:44 -
[1359] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"nullsec"? Don't make me laugh. Wardecs or no wardecs, highsec is exceedingly safe.
Though some say nullsec is safer than highsec ... ... but then war deccers are sh** in hunting people.
Null is safer for some people because Concord doesn't shoot first and ask questions later. |
Shon Anzomi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2015.06.04 14:24:55 -
[1360] - Quote
I am perfectly happy at Science and Trade institute. For the lone asocial b...rd like me, the NPC corps are great. |
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
468
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 16:18:54 -
[1361] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"nullsec"? Don't make me laugh. Wardecs or no wardecs, highsec is exceedingly safe.
Though some say nullsec is safer than highsec ... ... but then war deccers are sh** in hunting people. The skill of the person doing the hunting really isn't all that relevant. Bad or good, everyone shows up in local.
Sure, leave corp, get to system, scan down, approach, get back to corp, shoot. GG
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1813
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 16:31:54 -
[1362] - Quote
Neutral scout alt in npc corp does the hunting.
Main warps in for the kill.
No win situation? Not really.
if war target is 'paying attention' they notice war-ponent enter right away.
They align to celestial or station and warp. War-ponent lands in empty mission pocket/belt/vacant station.
It's not hard. It really isn't. You just have to pay attention to what's going on.
War is not that scary unless you let it be. 90% of the threat is in your own head.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13302
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Posted - 2015.06.04 16:38:24 -
[1363] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"nullsec"? Don't make me laugh. Wardecs or no wardecs, highsec is exceedingly safe.
Though some say nullsec is safer than highsec ... ... but then war deccers are sh** in hunting people. The skill of the person doing the hunting really isn't all that relevant. Bad or good, everyone shows up in local. Sure, leave corp, get to system, scan down, approach, get back to corp, shoot. GG
That's hugely against the rules, last I heard. As in, first offense, perma ban.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Nevil Oscillator
194
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 17:10:45 -
[1364] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"nullsec"? Don't make me laugh. Wardecs or no wardecs, highsec is exceedingly safe.
Though some say nullsec is safer than highsec ... ... but then war deccers are sh** in hunting people. The skill of the person doing the hunting really isn't all that relevant. Bad or good, everyone shows up in local. Sure, leave corp, get to system, scan down, approach, get back to corp, shoot. GG That's hugely against the rules, last I heard. As in, first offense, perma ban.
I'm not exactly sure what that achieves ? |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 17:59:31 -
[1365] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:how would it not be an advantage if the dec was only 2 days. a 2 day dec wouldn't be designed to wipe a corp out,, it would be a bash and run type of dec. 2 days doesn't bother anyone really unless you've a timer on a pos say. but even then players will stayed logged off and not care about the tower getting bashed. this is all just talk anyway, i've no data to say a 2 day war dec system would be good or bad or an advantage or not. it just sounds silly and easy to avoid. i'm sure CCP keep it at a week for a reason and the costs the same Come on Trust this one is really easy, when you get to the end of the 2 days the aggressor can just wardec them again if that isn't long enough. Incidentally the same as currently can if 7 days isn't long enough. The time only serves to provide a minimum commitment to the war by the aggressor, it helps the defender in no way at all.
but the defender is as commited as the aggressor. they have no choice, 2 day decs would encourage logging off for the timer. like it's not a long time to be offline don't ya think ?
but hey,, if it worked and encouraged better content and lolz i'd be all for it. i just don;t think it would work.
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Nevil Oscillator
194
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 18:06:54 -
[1366] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but the defender is as commited as the aggressor. they have no choice, 2 day decs would encourage logging off for the timer. like it's not a long time to be offline don't ya think ?
but hey,, if it worked and encouraged better content and lolz i'd be all for it. i just don;t think it would work.
I don't think so, if you want a 8 day wardec just run it consecutively 4 times, how would that be any different from what we have now ? |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 18:16:38 -
[1367] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but the defender is as commited as the aggressor. they have no choice, 2 day decs would encourage logging off for the timer. like it's not a long time to be offline don't ya think ?
but hey,, if it worked and encouraged better content and lolz i'd be all for it. i just don;t think it would work.
I don't think so, if you want a 8 day wardec just run it consecutively 4 times, how would that be any different from what we have now ?
i've already explained why i think it's different. sure the current system would let you dec for 2 days then retract.. what you'd really like is a cheaper war dec. am i right?
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Nevil Oscillator
194
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 18:29:02 -
[1368] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but the defender is as commited as the aggressor. they have no choice, 2 day decs would encourage logging off for the timer. like it's not a long time to be offline don't ya think ?
but hey,, if it worked and encouraged better content and lolz i'd be all for it. i just don;t think it would work.
I don't think so, if you want a 8 day wardec just run it consecutively 4 times, how would that be any different from what we have now ? i've already explained why i think it's different. sure the current system would let you dec for 2 days then retract.. what you'd really like is a cheaper war dec. am i right?
No , at 20mil a pop, 8 days would be more expensive than currently. |
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
77
|
Posted - 2015.06.04 19:18:02 -
[1369] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but the defender is as commited as the aggressor. they have no choice, 2 day decs would encourage logging off for the timer. like it's not a long time to be offline don't ya think ?
but hey,, if it worked and encouraged better content and lolz i'd be all for it. i just don;t think it would work.
I don't think so, if you want a 8 day wardec just run it consecutively 4 times, how would that be any different from what we have now ? i've already explained why i think it's different. sure the current system would let you dec for 2 days then retract.. what you'd really like is a cheaper war dec. am i right? No , at 20mil a pop, 8 days would be more expensive than currently.
I think your on to something here. It would also help counter all those complaints about "too much isk" being in the game. I think this will solve many of the problems. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25415
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 01:14:19 -
[1370] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I didn't say we should ban wardecs
For an NPC Corp member, what is the difference between a banned mechanic, and a mechanic they are totally immune to? NPC Corps are larger, in orders of magnitude, than any corp in hisec or anywhere else in the game. You say you don't want wardecs banned, but functionally wardec immunity for the largest corps in the game is exactly that.
Quote:It's just a fact that people go after easy targets when declaring war.
This has yet to be used as a justification for any immunity to anything, anywhere else in the game. Why are wardecs so special that they deserve an immunity clause for a select few players in the game? Why are some players immune to this thing in the same security rating system and some others aren't? It makes no sense at all, and there is no justification for it.
Quote:Please by all means proceed to believe that the wardec system is fine as is.
I don't believe that. Wardecs should be fixed, and then wardec immunity should be removed. I don't think immunity should be used as a "patch" for a broken mechanic. Instead, the mechanic should be fixed and no one in the game should be uniquely immune to anything.
What I don't believe is that the nonconsensual PVP aspect, or the overwhelming victory aspect of wardecs is what is broken. EVE is all about asymmetric warfare, and about no-choice PVP, simple as that.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25415
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 01:15:04 -
[1371] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:There are significant differences between wardecs and suicide ganking. The most important one is that you can easily avoid being ganked. Wardecs throw a corp into "nullsec".
People don't survive in nullsec?
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37805
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 03:41:30 -
[1372] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:Sure, leave corp, get to system, scan down, approach, get back to corp, shoot. GG That's hugely against the rules, last I heard. As in, first offense, perma ban.
Actually, I didn't even think it was possible to do anymore using Tipa's scenario, since to join a Corp you have to be in your pod or docked.
The only thing that would come close would be to warp to target, eject from ship, wait session change timer, join Corp, board ship, shoot; which rightly so would be petitioned quickly and hopefully lead to a ban.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
468
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 05:11:32 -
[1373] - Quote
This means, pending corp applications can't be accepted while the applicant is in space?
In general the mechanic is even more broken, if some simple steps of standard game mechanics get you banned.
Also NPC corps are not a group of players IMO, there was no choice involved, just a placeholder tag for players not in a (player) corp.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37805
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 05:18:15 -
[1374] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:This means, pending corp applications can't be accepted while the applicant is in space?.
Yes, that's exactly what it means, unless they are in a pod.
You can only accept an invite if you are in a pod or docked. It was changed a little while back, from memory to prevent that specific tactic and some bug where the target didn't get an indication they were at war with you when you joined the corp while right next to them (something about a session change being needed). Maybe within the last year from memory. I'll go see if I can find the relevant devblog.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25417
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 06:03:04 -
[1375] - Quote
Can't rejoin a corp at war for 7 days.
Can't leave a corp in space.
All our times have come
Here but now they're gone
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37808
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 06:06:29 -
[1376] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Can't rejoin a corp at war for 7 days.
Yeah this even more. It would require a lot of advanced planning and preparation to try the warp to target, join Corp approach.
The mechanics make it extremely difficult.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6248
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 06:47:31 -
[1377] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:For an NPC Corp member, what is the difference between a banned mechanic, and a mechanic they are totally immune to? NPC Corps are larger, in orders of magnitude, than any corp in hisec or anywhere else in the game. You say you don't want wardecs banned, but functionally wardec immunity for the largest corps in the game is exactly that. No, they just have a limited scope, like most things. Your issue is that if you choose to wardec people there's some people you can't wardec because they choose to play in a way that isn't vulnerable to that. That's just the way it works, people don't play this game to be your entertainment.
Sibyyl wrote:This has yet to be used as a justification for any immunity to anything, anywhere else in the game. Why are wardecs so special that they deserve an immunity clause for a select few players in the game? Why are some players immune to this thing in the same security rating system and some others aren't? It makes no sense at all, and there is no justification for it. It's not the reason they have immunity, it's just an explanation of why wardecs are broken. And yes, there's a justification, they choose to play in that way without the same tool as other players get in player corps and without being able to deploy in-space assets and in return they get to be immune to wardecs. It's a playstyle choice. One you obviously hate, but it's a valid choice nonetheless. Quite honestly, I don't see why people should be force out of that just so a handful of groups can wardec even more players who have no interest in fighting. This is a game. People play it for entertainment. Force players into being fodder for a minority group of what can only be described as griefers, and they will leave. it's really that simple.
Sibyyl wrote:I don't believe that. Wardecs should be fixed, and then wardec immunity should be removed. I don't think immunity should be used as a "patch" for a broken mechanic. Instead, the mechanic should be fixed and no one in the game should be uniquely immune to anything. Why? Why should people be force to play in the way that you want. I could demand all of highsec become nullsec so we can take over Jita, or that missions be removed because I don't like them. It's unreasonable because i's just me deciding that a whole category of players is irrelevant because they don't conform to what I like. If people want to choose to not be vulnerable to wardecs and are willing to live with the consequences of that choice, there's nothing wrong with that. I tell you what, I'll support the removal of NPC corps only alongside the complete removal of wardecs.
Sibyyl wrote:What I don't believe is that the nonconsensual PVP aspect, or the overwhelming victory aspect of wardecs is what is broken. EVE is all about asymmetric warfare, and about no-choice PVP, simple as that. Well then you're obviously playing this game with your eyes shut. Anyone can tell you and even CCP have stated that the wardec system as it stands is broken. It's not designed as a mechanic for large PvP groups to farm endless numbers of noobs, and yet that's what its used for.
And no, EVE is not about no-choice PvP. In every situation you have a choice and evasion is one of those choices. If I choose to dock up and stay there, there's sod all you can do to stop me.
By the way, you're still seemingly ignorant to the fact that removing wardecs would simply make tens of thousands of single man corps. You wouldn't suddenly be able to wardec swathes of people and the complaints would roll in about how unfair it is that you wardec 1 person for 50m and they evade you. On top of which I assume you'd also want the removal of corp rolling, meaning that players who don't have alts to go have fun on and can;t actively dodge wardeccers in space would literally be trapped unable to play for a week whenever someone wardecs them.
At the end of the day, CCP aren;t likely to remove either corp rolling or NPC corps, and they're likely to replace wardecs with something related to the entosis link. I don't care enough about the unreasonably entitled players who tend to initiate wardecs to worry if they are sad about it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
469
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 07:15:25 -
[1378] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
Can't rejoin a corp at war for 7 days.
Yeah this even more. It would require a lot of advanced planning and preparation to try the warp to target, join Corp approach. The mechanics make it extremely difficult.
PvP rules in low and null are so much easier ... I will probably never become a highsec PvPer.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Nicolai Serkanner
Jebediah Kerman's Junkyard and Spaceship Parts Co.
Brave Collective
384
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 08:40:07 -
[1379] - Quote
Demica Diaz wrote:Speaking from own experience; As much as I love EVE online I play it very casually. I feel like many corps would just dislike player who hardly is online or is offline for week or two every month. But I feel to add that not all players who sit in NPC corp might be in there just because War Decs.
Join Brave Newbies. No problem at all when players only play irregularly.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 16:46:08 -
[1380] - Quote
Sybyyl wrote:Instead, the mechanic should be fixed and no one in the game should be uniquely immune to anything.
No one is uniquely immune to war declarations. You have every bit as much the ability to immunize yourself from a war declaration as I do. You have just chosen a different path, but you can reverse course and drop back to an NPC corporation at any time.
Sibyyl wrote:EVE is all about asymmetric warfare
NPC corporation membership is effectively an asymmetric defense mechanism. Although, it is much more than just that, to some people.
Sibyyl wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:There are significant differences between wardecs and suicide ganking. The most important one is that you can easily avoid being ganked. Wardecs throw a corp into "nullsec". People don't survive in nullsec?
No. They don't. Your alliance's killboard is a clear illustration of that. Now, just imagine if, instead of losing Atrons and Talwars, you were losing mission battlecruisers and battleships. |
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 17:33:44 -
[1381] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but the defender is as commited as the aggressor. they have no choice, 2 day decs would encourage logging off for the timer. like it's not a long time to be offline don't ya think ?
but hey,, if it worked and encouraged better content and lolz i'd be all for it. i just don;t think it would work.
I don't think so, if you want a 8 day wardec just run it consecutively 4 times, how would that be any different from what we have now ? i've already explained why i think it's different. sure the current system would let you dec for 2 days then retract.. what you'd really like is a cheaper war dec. am i right? No , at 20mil a pop, 8 days would be more expensive than currently.
ok.but still doesn't make sense when the current system allows for a 2 day dec if the aggressor choses so. or maybe i'm just not getting why you think it would be better. or is it not that it's better just more options ?
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The Slayer
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 17:56:06 -
[1382] - Quote
Whats the difference between keeping players in an NPC corp or forcing everyone into a 1 man corporation with their alts which will be left the second a war is declared against them. |
Nevil Oscillator
200
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 19:25:18 -
[1383] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
ok.but still doesn't make sense when the current system allows for a 2 day dec if the aggressor choses so. or maybe i'm just not getting why you think it would be better. or is it not that it's better just more options ?
Yeah I guess it is just a pricing issue, a lot of people don't PVP in expensive ships, at 50 mil you could already be down more than anyone intends to put on the battlefield. |
Sloppy Podfarts
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
33
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Posted - 2015.06.05 19:28:38 -
[1384] - Quote
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:Wardecs - ruinous to newbie corps, minor inconvenience and generally irrelevant to everyone else.
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Iphigeneia
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 22:10:03 -
[1385] - Quote
Hi, I'm Iphi, and I'm in CAS.
I joined EVE at the behest of a good friend of mine. He is in a player corp. He threw isk at me and told me to read the tutorials and have a good time learning how to play -- he owns an orca and an alt with boost skills so he gave me a small fleet to mine in and earn isk while in highsec -- he also introduced me to another friend who is a manager/leader/recruiter in his player corp who has told me all about the exciting life I could lead in null.
Player Corp Manager Friend loves to glorify how much isk I can make in his nullsec corp by afk mining while my alt sits on their gate with several other corpies stomping neutrals who stray into system. He has also been known to complain about members who don't show up at specific times to do specific corp-mandated things -- mining operations to fit US, EU, AU timezones, where all the yield + all the rat bounties go 100% to the corp, for example -- and I realise what it sounds like.
I have a real world job that dictates my playing time. I'm required to follow rules at this job, and I'm okay with that because that's part of what a job means. I give them 42-45 hours of my time every week and do what they tell me to do when they want me to do it and I get paid for it.
Being in a player corp with these types of activities sounds an awful lot like my job. And said friends' corp's system is in the backend of some backwater null system where they rent space from their alliance, so it continues to sound like my job as I'd be in the same seat day after day, week after week, doing nothing but pulling in money and following a boss's command.
I have a damn job. Said job earns me money for siting in the same damn seat day after day for doing what my boss tells me to. When a game feels like a job, I stop playing.
I'm in CAS, like I said, and I quite like it here. In CAS I have access to a lot of friendly people, noobs and veterans alike, to chat with when I'm feeling sociable. These people won't complain if I don't do so for days at a time. I also have access to mission fleets, incursion fleets, mining fleets, and null-sec roaming fleets, should I choose to/have the ability to join in. Not only that, but when I have questions, I can find an answer. Plus, if I show off my new awesome ship that I just fitted with modules that I recently finished training for, my corpmates won't wait for me to undock so they can blow it to pieces (another friend recently had that lovely experience within his first day of joining his first corp back in EVE after years away).
I'm not sure that being in a player-run corp in null-sec following sovereignty rules is going to provide me the kind of experience I want and currently can get out of CAS. However, I have a feeling that joining a player corp is an inevitability if only because I still like playing with my friends and if they continue to be active I may need to join up just to continue playing with them. I'm mostly a carebear, I like blowing things up but I'm more of a honourable-battlefield pvper -- the kind who will fight you in a group no-holds barred, with everyone all out balls to the wall -- but I've never been any good at 1v1, and I'm certainly not up for 1vtrololol.
TL;DR: Player corps too often sound like work when I already have a job. My NPC corp provides a large part of the EVE experience and I'm having lots of fun this way. Might change in future, might not. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37820
|
Posted - 2015.06.05 23:06:49 -
[1386] - Quote
Iphigeneia wrote: My NPC corp provides a large part of the EVE experience and I'm having lots of fun this way. Might change in future, might not.
Welcome to the game and the forum; and congrats on finding the play that works well for you.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Elaniera
Shiptoasters
254
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Posted - 2015.06.06 02:14:26 -
[1387] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Sybyyl wrote:People don't survive in nullsec?
No. They don't.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the stupidity of that reply. Possibly the dumbest comment I've seen in the forum. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25422
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 03:01:48 -
[1388] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:And yes, there's a justification, they choose to play in that way without the same tool as other players get in player corps and without being able to deploy in-space assets and in return they get to be immune to wardecs. It's a playstyle choice. One you obviously hate, but it's a valid choice nonetheless. Quite honestly, I don't see why people should be force out of that just so a handful of groups can wardec even more players who have no interest in fighting. This is a game. People play it for entertainment. Force players into being fodder for a minority group of what can only be described as griefers, and they will leave. it's really that simple.
I disagree with you, but we are arguing something completely subjective at this point.
We would only hold on to let go
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25423
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 03:08:14 -
[1389] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:No. They don't. Your alliance's killboard is a clear illustration of that. Now, just imagine if, instead of losing Atrons and Talwars, you were losing mission battlecruisers and battleships.
Good thing you went for the low effort option in your response. The preemptive smacktalk doesn't lend itself very well to a discussion.
We would only hold on to let go
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 04:30:38 -
[1390] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:No. They don't. Your alliance's killboard is a clear illustration of that. Now, just imagine if, instead of losing Atrons and Talwars, you were losing mission battlecruisers and battleships. Good thing you went for the low effort option in your response. The preemptive smacktalk doesn't lend itself very well to a discussion.
I'm sorry, but the truth hurts. No one likes an good underdog story more than me. I saw a story recently about a fisherman that got stabbed in the upper torso by a swordfish. The fisherman died and my response was: "Hurray!"
I'm not pointing it out because I need to feel superior. I'm pointing it out because the Brave Newbies are a clear example of what happens when you throw people into the deep end when they aren't ready. And, contrary to what they might tell you in corp or alliance chat, they aren't all having a blast getting massacred.
Some people have fun by sincerely trying to improve and win.
Another good example of what happens is that of myself. I'd like to think I was a brave newbie once, too, and my experience of dying repeatedly in null is what primarily informs my answer to your question. I also died to war dec'ers in high sec. I also died to pirates in low sec. My conclusion: I should have stayed in the damn noob-corp.
Can noobs, solo players, carebears, etc. survive a war dec? Sure.
Can noobs, solo players, carebears, etc. survive in null? Sure.
Do they? Probably not. |
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1837
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 04:34:14 -
[1391] - Quote
Had a nice chat with a member of CAS the other morning.
She and many others are very happy with that corp for reasons already covered in depth earlier. I get that. I also understand the need/desire to have a place for hauler/scout/indy alts to live without being under the gun, especially when the main character happens to live in a 'target rich environment'.
There are plenty of reasons for living in one of these corps that are plenty valid.
Fear of war as a driving motivator for staying in them is one that kind of saddens me though. Don't get me wrong, I generally have plenty of targets to chase after (so many that I often find myself befuddled as to whom to pursue), so I'm not really looking for more.
No, what bothers me is this pervasive notion that wars are horrible things that ruin the game, make it unplayable, drive people away etc... and get branded with the word 'Grief'. I loathe that word, as we're not playing on a public Minecraft server here. We all know what EVE is, or at least we should. We signed up for this. Most of us LOVE this. It's fun because it's kind of scary, kind of like a roller coaster. Facing that fear and conquering it is part of the joy of the game, and because of this skewed perspective many are preemptively robbing themselves of that.
Hiding under the bunk and wrapping yourself in foam isn't going to enhance the game for you or anyone else.
*shrug*
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Elaniera
Shiptoasters
256
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 05:12:52 -
[1392] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Sybyyl wrote:
People don't survive in nullsec?
No. They don't.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Can noobs, solo players, carebears, etc. survive a war dec? Sure.
Can noobs, solo players, carebears, etc. survive in null? Sure.
Do they? Probably not.
Lol. Your personal fail is the basis for your total judgement (by your own words).
Laughing is definitely the right response to this rubbish. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 05:35:28 -
[1393] - Quote
Elaniera wrote:Lol. Your personal fail is the basis for your total judgement (by your own words).
Laughing is definitely the right response to this rubbish.
Laughing would be one response to what I said. I don't know if it would be the "right" response. Instead of laughing, though, you made a cryptic and vitriolic post in an internet spaceships forum. I wonder . . . why so serious? |
Elaniera
Shiptoasters
257
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 06:47:12 -
[1394] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:I wonder . . . why so serious?
Coz, Eve is so serious of course.
That's got to be why you recommend people stay in NPC Corps right. Because otherwise their precious space pixels might splode. Oh no. How terrible, even if they might find fun in other ways that you expect.
Also. Internet forum. Making posts, in whatever form people choose, is kind of part of the point. |
Nevil Oscillator
200
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 07:03:34 -
[1395] - Quote
Low Sec, Null Sec , Wormhole space, is all by definition more dangerous than High Sec, if you are going there to fight it is a good idea to have a plan to replace your ship when you lose it. If you are going there to have a look around because you have not been there before then the same is even more so true. If you are part of alliance that dominates the territory so much that it is no longer dangerous for you that doesn't change the fact that it's natural state is more dangerous and probably still is for people that are not part of that alliance. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37829
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 07:19:27 -
[1396] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Low Sec, Null Sec , Wormhole space, is all by definition more dangerous than High Sec, if you are going there to fight it is a good idea to have a plan to replace your ship when you lose it. If you are going there to have a look around because you have not been there before then the same is even more so true. If you are part of alliance that dominates the territory so much that it is no longer dangerous for you that doesn't change the fact that it's natural state is more dangerous and probably still is for people that are not part of that alliance.
Yeah sure, though I wouldn't say danger equates to an inability to survive.
People survive in nullsec all the time, even while losing ships.
Different people, Corps, Alliances and Coalitions have differing abilities to manage risk and many in nullsec provide ship replacement programs that minimize the impact of loss on the wallets of their members. Others don't have SRPs and yet their members thrive in the community they have.
I'd personally almost recommend that all highsec Corps take a trip to nullsec and learn how to survive there. That will make them instantly more prepared to survive against wardecs that visit them when they go back to highsec. A war turns highsec into nullsec without bubbles. Learning to survive in null provide great tools to survive in the face of a wardec aggressor.
Nullsec certainly doesn't need to be feared and never visited because of the risk of loss. Survival there happens every day.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
79
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 07:33:10 -
[1397] - Quote
Elaniera wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:I wonder . . . why so serious? Coz, Eve is so serious of course. That's got to be why you recommend people stay in NPC Corps right. Because otherwise their precious space pixels might splode. Oh no. How terrible, even if they might find fun in other ways that you expect. Also. Internet forum. Making posts, in whatever form people choose, is kind of part of the point.
Post like these get so stupid sometimes. Whats your point? There are plenty of people in player corps. If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad. |
Elaniera
Shiptoasters
258
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 07:44:44 -
[1398] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad.
How do I get my jollies? |
Nevil Oscillator
200
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 07:52:22 -
[1399] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
I'd personally almost recommend that all highsec Corps take a trip to nullsec and learn how to survive there.
Dunno, I would say it depends on the corp, some corps are never going to be wardeced.. ever..
OK In Null you have no gate guns and station guns but if you are a high sec corp you might not even know what they do anyway.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
79
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 08:03:02 -
[1400] - Quote
Elaniera wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad. How do I get my jollies?
That's a good question. Please share. But you sound like you aren't getting enough and it has something to do with NPC corps. |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37829
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 08:03:26 -
[1401] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Dunno, I would say it depends on the corp, some corps are never going to be wardeced.. ever..
OK In Null you have no gate guns and station guns but if you are a high sec corp you might not even know what they do anyway.
Sure. If it's not a specific risk for a corp then they don't need to worry about it. For most, the risk of wardecs is a thing.
Sentry guns do nothing against war targets.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
261
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 08:13:56 -
[1402] - Quote
Elaniera wrote:Coz, Eve is so serious of course.
That's got to be why you recommend people stay in NPC Corps right. Because otherwise their precious space pixels might splode. Oh no. How terrible, even if they might find fun in other ways that you expect.
Also. Internet forum. Making posts, in whatever form people choose, is kind of part of the point.
I'm in an NPC corp. My pixels explode. Would you care to rephrase what you said?
As for recommending NPC corp membership, I really just recommend that people play the game THEIR way, rather than be someone else's goon. People come up with new and interesting solutions to problems when their minds are left alone to operate free of dogma and bias.
Internet space safety isn't really one of the reasons I recommend staying out of a player corp.
If it upsets you that I generally recommend NPC corp membership, maybe that is because you want to influence others with your dogma and bias and have trouble doing so in a setting like an NPC corp channel, where no one has any obligation to heed or obey your words. That must suck. :-(
Do I take the game seriously? lol, my main and only character is still in the State War Academy after over 3 years. That's a pretty serious statement about my attitude towards the game.
On the other hand, you take the game so seriously, you feel the need to create an alt to post your real opinions about the game, so let me ask again . . . why so serious?
As if there was even anything wrong with taking EVE seriously. Some people play poker during their lunchbreak and call every hand. Some people play poker as their career and win millions of dollars and write books about it and become famous for doing it. Is either of them doing it wrong? |
Nevil Oscillator
200
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 08:22:21 -
[1403] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Dunno, I would say it depends on the corp, some corps are never going to be wardeced.. ever..
OK In Null you have no gate guns and station guns but if you are a high sec corp you might not even know what they do anyway.
Sure. If it's not a specific risk for a corp then they don't need to worry about it. For most, the risk of wardecs is a thing. Sentry guns do nothing against war targets.
People only wardec me because I post on the forum. don't post here and you are probably completely safe |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37829
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 08:36:39 -
[1404] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:People only wardec me because I post on the forum. don't post here and you are probably completely safe
Yeah we get wardecced occasionally because of posts I make on the forum. The most recent a couple of months back over a thread on the use of links.
But it's not the only reason wardecs happen. New industrial corps, pilots auto piloting bong ships that can't be ganked at the time, people moving product to markets, mercs hired on contract, operating in a certain area, etc. there's lots of reasons wardecs happen.
Being prepared for them is not a bad thing.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Elaniera
Shiptoasters
258
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 08:50:56 -
[1405] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Elaniera wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad. How do I get my jollies? That's a good question. Please share. You sound like you aren't getting enough and it has something to do with NPC corps.
I thought you already knew. I eat babies for breakfast. Grind their bones into flour and bake bread out of it for my supper. Just like everyone in nullsec.
As for NPC Corps, please quote anywhere that I have said anything bad about them.
My only comments have been about the ridiculous statement saying that it isn't possible to survive in nullsec, when it very much is possible, no matter NPC Corp or player corp. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
268
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 10:51:11 -
[1406] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
why so serious?
As if there was even anything wrong with taking EVE seriously. Some people play poker during their lunchbreak and call every hand. Some people play poker as their career and win millions of dollars and write books about it and become famous for doing it. Is either of them doing it wrong?
because some want to be all serious and No you are dead right, neither are doing it wrong.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25426
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 15:35:41 -
[1407] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:There are plenty of people in player corps. If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad.
People should not have automatic immunity to a combat mechanism when they are in space. Wardec immunity for NPC corps should be removed. Decc dodging should be removed. The fact that you're arguing someone gets "jollies" is a strawman. Please don't put words in our mouth, or associate emotions or motivations that we actually haven't explicitly stated.
Non-consensual PVP is an essential part of the game. Whether or not a group of players don't want to PVP or are terrible at PVP is beside the point. It's fine if you don't believe that and we can chalk it up to a disagreement. I'm not sure why my or anyone else's "jollies" enters the discussion.
We would only hold on to let go
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Lucy Lopez
Low Frequency
39
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Posted - 2015.06.06 16:12:28 -
[1408] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:People should not have automatic immunity to a combat mechanism when they are in space. Wardec immunity for NPC corps should be removed. Decc dodging should be removed. The fact that you're arguing someone gets "jollies" is a strawman. Please don't put words in our mouth, or associate emotions or motivations that we actually haven't explicitly stated.
Non-consensual PVP is an essential part of the game. Whether or not a group of players don't want to PVP or are terrible at PVP is beside the point. It's fine if you don't believe that and we can chalk it up to a disagreement. I'm not sure why my or anyone else's "jollies" enters the discussion.
Wardeccing isn't a combat mechanism, it's a strategy. If you want to explode NPC corp members in highsec then the sandbox already offers you various strategies for that. What you want is access to the easiest strategy of them all. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25427
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 16:14:56 -
[1409] - Quote
Lucy Lopez wrote:Wardeccing isn't a combat mechanism, it's a strategy. If you want to explode NPC corp members in highsec then the sandbox already offers you various strategies for that. What you want is access to the easiest strategy of them all.
The equivalent of saying nullsec is easy because two parties can shoot each other freely.
Easy peasy!
We would only hold on to let go
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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
475
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 17:14:55 -
[1410] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Lucy Lopez wrote:Wardeccing isn't a combat mechanism, it's a strategy. If you want to explode NPC corp members in highsec then the sandbox already offers you various strategies for that. What you want is access to the easiest strategy of them all. The equivalent of saying nullsec is easy because two parties can shoot each other freely. Easy peasy!
A bit more precision please, in non-highsec everybody can shoot everybody without noticeable consequences. In a highsec war only the involved corps can initially shoot each other without Concord involvement, which is a huge difference.
Personally I'm all against arranged fights, and wardecs are from that kind. If they wouldn't be needed today to attack corp structures in highsec, I would like to see them scrapped and replaced by a more implicit way of initiation a fight by just shooting. Shoot first, talk later - this is EvE.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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Pops Tickle
Tickle Industries
0
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Posted - 2015.06.06 17:20:36 -
[1411] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:There are plenty of people in player corps. If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad. People should not have automatic immunity to a combat mechanism when they are in space. Wardec immunity for NPC corps should be removed. Decc dodging should be removed. The fact that you're arguing someone gets "jollies" is a strawman. Please don't put words in our mouth, or associate emotions or motivations that we actually haven't explicitly stated. Non-consensual PVP is an essential part of the game. Whether or not a group of players don't want to PVP or are terrible at PVP is beside the point. It's fine if you don't believe that and we can chalk it up to a disagreement. I'm not sure why my or anyone else's "jollies" enters the discussion.
I disagree tangentially, Ms. Sibyyl. War declarations and npc corp immunity are mechanics built onto other mechanics. They are symptoms, so to speak. A more achieving approach would be to scrap the current mechanics regarding high-sec completely and finding a system that does not need patches in form of "asking CONCORD for their consent" and "offering people a way to avoid it".
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Nevil Oscillator
200
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Posted - 2015.06.06 17:26:22 -
[1412] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
[quote=Aza Ebanu]
Non-consensual PVP is an essential part of the game.
Players exist within a universe where the actions of other have consequences to them but no it is not essential that everyone be taking the same risks for the same rewards. It is for the players to decide what will be out of their depth and if you had no shallow end then there would be no good or bad decision.
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Josef Djugashvilis
2962
|
Posted - 2015.06.06 17:34:41 -
[1413] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:Im trying to make ccp money here. They have data that shows people that stay in npc corps quit more often. They said corp ceos dont like recruiting noobs cuz of fear of awox, do you believe this is the main reason?
I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
Are wars the most dangerous aspect to retention (players staying in npc corps) and therefore should be nerfed to increase player corp levels and retention?
Nerf wars to save the noobs and make people join player corps to increase retention and ccps wallet?
Ho hum...
The quality of trolling has really taken a turn for the worse.
This is not a signature.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
80
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 02:02:41 -
[1414] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:There are plenty of people in player corps. If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad. People should not have automatic immunity to a combat mechanism when they are in space. Wardec immunity for NPC corps should be removed. Decc dodging should be removed. The fact that you're arguing someone gets "jollies" is a strawman. Please don't put words in our mouth, or associate emotions or motivations that we actually haven't explicitly stated. Non-consensual PVP is an essential part of the game. Whether or not a group of players don't want to PVP or are terrible at PVP is beside the point. It's fine if you don't believe that and we can chalk it up to a disagreement. I'm not sure why my or anyone else's "jollies" enters the discussion.
Okay let me put this NPC wardec idea to bed. According to lore, you belong to a racial empire corp. This corp is sponsored by the faction, but is not an element of the faction's military. If you go to war with that corp, you are declaring war on that corp's empire. All ships and corps friendly to that NPC corp will defend itself. Therefore, unless you are willing to go up against a bunch of NPCs supporting those capsuleers, you better leave that corp alone. Last but not least, the war dec is an agreement with concord, so they really wouldn't want the empires to fight or be drawn into war with capsuleers or each other.
TL;DR:
NPC corps are relatively neutral organizations of the four empires. Wardeccing an NPC corp is wardeccing an empire faction. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25440
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 02:38:09 -
[1415] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Okay let me put this NPC wardec idea to bed. According to lore, you belong to a racial empire corp. This corp is sponsored by the faction, but is not an element of the faction's military. If you go to war with that corp, you are declaring war on that corp's empire. All ships and corps friendly to that NPC corp will defend itself. Therefore, unless you are willing to go up against a bunch of NPCs supporting those capsuleers, you better leave that corp alone. Last but not least, the war dec is an agreement with concord, so they really wouldn't want the empires to fight or be drawn into war with capsuleers or each other.
TL;DR:
NPC corps are relatively neutral organizations of the four empires. Wardeccing an NPC corp is wardeccing an empire faction.
"Mud wrestling with pigs don't work, because the pigs love it."
Having facpo aggress you for wardeccing NPC corps is acceptable. So on those terms you agree with deleting wardec immunity from the game?
We would only hold on to let go
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 03:00:15 -
[1416] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:There are plenty of people in player corps. If there aren't enough for you to get your jollies, too bad. People should not have automatic immunity to a combat mechanism when they are in space. Wardec immunity for NPC corps should be removed. Decc dodging should be removed. The fact that you're arguing someone gets "jollies" is a strawman. Please don't put words in our mouth, or associate emotions or motivations that we actually haven't explicitly stated. Non-consensual PVP is an essential part of the game. Whether or not a group of players don't want to PVP or are terrible at PVP is beside the point. It's fine if you don't believe that and we can chalk it up to a disagreement. I'm not sure why my or anyone else's "jollies" enters the discussion.
I understand what you are saying but, wardec immunity /= combat immunity. There is just a consequence for taking that kinda stuff into Empire space. Don't worry, non consensual PVP still exist in the game(even in high sec) without wardecs. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 03:08:16 -
[1417] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Okay let me put this NPC wardec idea to bed. According to lore, you belong to a racial empire corp. This corp is sponsored by the faction, but is not an element of the faction's military. If you go to war with that corp, you are declaring war on that corp's empire. All ships and corps friendly to that NPC corp will defend itself. Therefore, unless you are willing to go up against a bunch of NPCs supporting those capsuleers, you better leave that corp alone. Last but not least, the war dec is an agreement with concord, so they really wouldn't want the empires to fight or be drawn into war with capsuleers or each other.
TL;DR:
NPC corps are relatively neutral organizations of the four empires. Wardeccing an NPC corp is wardeccing an empire faction. "Mud wrestling with pigs don't work, because the pigs love it."Having facpo? aggress you for wardeccing NPC corps is acceptable. So on those terms you agree with deleting wardec immunity from the game?
facpo?
I wouldn't mind having some back up from Empire when at war at all. They could scale it based on size of attacking corp. It could be like FW, but more excitement. Give use to that Titan in New Caldari! It would never work because, CCP would have to get rid of CONCORD, bounties, NPC corp tax, and other lore/game breaking things. But it could awesome. Most of the mechanics already exist for it too. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25440
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 03:17:04 -
[1418] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:A bit more precision please, in non-highsec everybody can shoot everybody without noticeable consequences. In a highsec war only the involved corps can initially shoot each other without Concord involvement, which is a huge difference.
And the defender can call in allies. They can invite anyone and everyone to shoot the aggressor without CONCORD. The attacker has no such capability.
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Players exist within a universe where the actions of other have consequences to them but no it is not essential that everyone be taking the same risks for the same rewards. It is for the players to decide what will be out of their depth and if you had no shallow end then there would be no good or bad decision.
And that in my opinion is what Eve is all about.
We are talking about EVE, a non-consensual PVP spaceship game. We shouldn't provide a shallow end for a 5-year old player, just like we don't let 30-year olds stay in Kindergarten. I'm perfectly fine with rookies enjoying wardec immunity for a reasonable period of time. Why does a 5-year old player need this coddling?
If you wanted the shallow end hottub experience, isn't that what station spinning is for?
We would only hold on to let go
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1853
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 04:04:14 -
[1419] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Lucy Lopez wrote:Wardeccing isn't a combat mechanism, it's a strategy. If you want to explode NPC corp members in highsec then the sandbox already offers you various strategies for that. What you want is access to the easiest strategy of them all. The equivalent of saying nullsec is easy because two parties can shoot each other freely. Easy peasy! A bit more precision please, in non-highsec everybody can shoot everybody without noticeable consequences. In a highsec war only the involved corps can initially shoot each other without Concord involvement, which is a huge difference. Personally I'm all against arranged fights, and wardecs are from that kind. If they wouldn't be needed today to attack corp structures in highsec, I would like to see them scrapped and replaced by a more implicit way of initiation a fight by just shooting. Shoot first, talk later - this is EvE.
Your aim is a bit off as well.
Seems each time I engage in pew in lowsex by initiating conflict first I get a sec status hit. Enough of those and my lowsex antics make things interesting for me in hisex. If I get really groovy with it I have to do tags or endure the lifestyle of those who are deemed criminal. As I live in high and do various forms of violence there, that would significantly alter the environment in which I operate, making me have to worry about rabid npc swarms interfering with my war and suspect baiting fun... actually, while it would make the war thing far less practical it would completely eliminate one of my playstyles.
Just saying. While I wouldn't mind being able to do war with NPC corps, I'm really not all that adamant about it. I don't like dec dodging though, and I think that it was an error on CCP's part to not increase the cost for forming a corp when they increased the wardec fee.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1853
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Posted - 2015.06.07 04:20:59 -
[1420] - Quote
My real issue is one that CCP cannot resolve, as it's one of human nature.
When war is declared on/by our corps we make a choice. Sometimes it's a conscious one, sometimes it's subconscious.
The choice is this....
Do you don your cheerleading outfit and heels and run shrieking into the woods at night?
Or do you strap on your hockey mask and grab your favorite machete for your moonlit walk through the forest?
Fundamentally we all have the same tools available to us in our toolboxes, it's just a matter of how we choose to use them.
Numbers don't really matter; folks like Cannibal Kane have long disproven that notion.
Skill does matter, but player skill more than SP.
The catch is that you don't gain that kind of skill through tutorials, you have to go out there and get your nose bloodied a few times and if you're lucky/diligent you can find a mentor.
Goals matter too.
And this bit is important.
If you are the defender and you don't want to lose, then your goal is to not lose.
If you are the aggressor then you want kills.
When facing an opponent that is ACTUALLY EXERTING THEMSELVES to achieve their goals, this is equally tough for both sides. Sorry about the caps, but that ****'s important.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Nevil Oscillator
202
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 04:36:18 -
[1421] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
We are talking about EVE, a non-consensual PVP spaceship game. We shouldn't provide a shallow end for a 5-year old player, just like we don't let 30-year olds stay in Kindergarten. I'm perfectly fine with rookies enjoying wardec immunity for a reasonable period of time. Why does a 5-year old player need this coddling?
If you wanted the shallow end hottub experience, isn't that what station spinning is for?
My point was that each player has a choice , you chose your path they chose theirs , is it ok to then moan that theirs is too good ?
Aza Ebanu wrote:
NPC corps are relatively neutral organizations of the four empires. Wardeccing an NPC corp is wardeccing an empire faction.
They aren't , every activity in Eve has consequences on other players.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
81
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 06:15:19 -
[1422] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
We are talking about EVE, a non-consensual PVP spaceship game. We shouldn't provide a shallow end for a 5-year old player, just like we don't let 30-year olds stay in Kindergarten. I'm perfectly fine with rookies enjoying wardec immunity for a reasonable period of time. Why does a 5-year old player need this coddling?
If you wanted the shallow end hottub experience, isn't that what station spinning is for?
My point was that each player has a choice , you chose your path they chose theirs , is it ok to then moan that theirs is too good ? Aza Ebanu wrote:
NPC corps are relatively neutral organizations of the four empires. Wardeccing an NPC corp is wardeccing an empire faction.
They aren't , every activity in Eve has consequences on other players.
According to lore:
"The Scope is the leading news agency in the world of EVE. Though based in the Federation the company takes pride in its total independence and operates separate agencies throughout the world. The Scope swings slightly to the left, but it's conservative enough to be considered a reliable news agency even to the toughest businessmen and politicians. "
I enjoy NPC corps and EVE is better for it. I am just saying wardeccing an NPC corp should bring consequences. If a capsuleer thinks he is bad enough to take on the whole Federation Navy to attempt at those capsuleers, why not let him?
Example:
Wardec on The Scope
Neg standing with Gallente Federation & Minmatar Republic.
Waring corp is KOS in Minmatar Republic & Gallente Federation(NPCs and capsuleers).
Automatic -10 standings with Republic & Federation and their agents.
CONCORD although initially paid to look the other way, must react to violence against Empires to save face, as it's job is to police unlawful activity(And the empires pretty much pay more/better).
NPC corp tax waived and turned into increased payout during missions.
LP payout for every war target's ship destroyed by (NPC corp)capsuleer.
NPC response time increased to maximum across all sec status.
Now if they manage to get a kill on an NPC corp after all that, hey they earned it.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23899
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 06:40:30 -
[1423] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Do you don your cheerleading outfit and heels and run shrieking into the woods at night?
Or do you strap on your hockey mask and grab your favorite machete for your moonlit walk through the forest? There is a 3rd option; you don your cheerleading outfit and the hockey mask, grab your machete and then stalk someone else having a moonlit walk through the forest.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Oxide Ammar
203
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 09:12:54 -
[1424] - Quote
If this game was big giant hisec universe and the wardec was the only solution to pvp with others I would be 100% with you for NPC corps removal, but when you have countless nullsec/lowsec systems that even its residents don't have the balls to make use of it , then I don't know why people keep blaming hisec safety over this. When the biggest couple of giant nullsec coalitions don't have the courage to conflict each other and become in endless big battles like we kept hearing about when we joined this game...now you want to drag the individuals to your own version of pvp conflicts ?
You think that new players aren't aware of the existence of lowsec and nullsec systems? you think newbies aren't aware about how endless possibilities and conflicts they can have if they went there ?
If someone choose to stay in NPC corp he/she knows the benefits and drawbacks of their choice, you aren't their messiah to take them from their hands and show them the coolness of this game.
Lady Areola Fappington: -áSolo PVP isn't dead!-á You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13329
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Posted - 2015.06.07 10:27:37 -
[1425] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Do you don your cheerleading outfit and heels and run shrieking into the woods at night?
Or do you strap on your hockey mask and grab your favorite machete for your moonlit walk through the forest? There is a 3rd option; you don your cheerleading outfit and hockey mask, grab your machete; then make someone having a moonlit walk through the forest run off shrieking.
Lollipop Chainsaw much?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Nevil Oscillator
202
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 10:53:38 -
[1426] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I enjoy NPC corps and EVE is better for it. I am just saying wardeccing an NPC corp should bring consequences. If a capsuleer thinks he is bad enough to take on the whole Federation Navy to attempt at those capsuleers, why not let him?
Many players are already at war with the Federation Navy and many NPC corporations support missions against faction navy. It feels like there are a few loose ends with this scenario and their exemption from wardec is one of them.
Many of the points against allowing them to be wardeced are valid but that exemption does allow for some manipulation that is questionable.
I couldn't support an argument that existing players don't already have enough advantages over new ones in any way shape or form. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23900
|
Posted - 2015.06.07 11:20:42 -
[1427] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Do you don your cheerleading outfit and heels and run shrieking into the woods at night?
Or do you strap on your hockey mask and grab your favorite machete for your moonlit walk through the forest? There is a 3rd option; you don your cheerleading outfit and hockey mask, grab your machete; then make someone having a moonlit walk through the forest run off shrieking. Lollipop Chainsaw much? Never heard of it, looked it up, yeah pretty much.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
84
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 02:30:24 -
[1428] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:
I enjoy NPC corps and EVE is better for it. I am just saying wardeccing an NPC corp should bring consequences. If a capsuleer thinks he is bad enough to take on the whole Federation Navy to attempt at those capsuleers, why not let him?
Many players are already at war with the Federation Navy and many NPC corporations support missions against faction navy. It feels like there are a few loose ends with this scenario and their exemption from wardec is one of them. Many of the points against allowing them to be wardeced are valid but that exemption does allow for some manipulation that is questionable. I couldn't support an argument that existing players don't already have enough advantages over new ones in any way shape or form. But they aren't new players, a lot of experienced players put their characters in NPC corps for precisely that imunity. Doing the dirty work for their Alt ect.. There are issues with that.
All good points. When a player does FW, they can not fly into the Empire's space for too long or they suffer the consequences. In missions the agent is selecting you to seek and destroy an enemy "rogue" presence.
The problem with the alts in NPC corp is just a problem with alts in general. NPC corps can't be faulted for sloppy game design. If they removed war decs, no one would complain. NPC corps would have no advantage over player corps. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
804
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 03:15:47 -
[1429] - Quote
My only issues with NPC corps are that players can roam around in low without having to face the consequences of a war dec.
You also have players that use NPC alts to run trade and/or supplies.
This is the point of a suggestion I made several pages back.
1) NPC corp players are not allowed in low sec.
2) NPC corp players are not allowed to leave faction territory.
What's the point of this?
1) No more low sec roams that have no potential fallback in high sec.
2) No more NPC corp cross faction trading. This is basically just isk, free of risks, for players to fund their low/null characters.
3) Casual players rarely leave faction territory anyway, so they're not effected.
4) If you leave a player corp, you're automatically ejected into an NPC corp based on the faction territory you're in.
(would have to find out how this would work for null/low players that quit player corps.)
Need a lore basis for this?
Well, you're in an NPC corp..
Just simply say that these corps restrict travel for the safety of their members.
Consider it a Pilot's ID that gives access to gates... If you are in an NPC corp, your ID has restricted access. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25455
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 03:28:33 -
[1430] - Quote
No Joe, we need more ways for NPC Corpies to get blown up, and more reasons for them to undock and have fun.
Restricting them from dangerous areas of space is a nice way to get people to quit from boredom.
We would only hold on to let go
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Urziel99
Unified Research Zone
102
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 04:34:11 -
[1431] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:My only issues with NPC corps are that players can roam around in low without having to face the consequences of a war dec.
You also have players that use NPC alts to run trade and/or supplies.
This is the point of a suggestion I made several pages back.
1) NPC corp players are not allowed in low sec.
2) NPC corp players are not allowed to leave faction territory.
What's the point of this?
1) No more low sec roams that have no potential fallback in high sec.
2) No more NPC corp cross faction trading. This is basically just isk, free of risks, for players to fund their low/null characters.
3) Casual players rarely leave faction territory anyway, so they're not effected.
4) If you leave a player corp, you're automatically ejected into an NPC corp based on the faction territory you're in.
(would have to find out how this would work for null/low players that quit player corps.)
Need a lore basis for this?
Well, you're in an NPC corp..
Just simply say that these corps restrict travel for the safety of their members.
Consider it a Pilot's ID that gives access to gates... If you are in an NPC corp, your ID has restricted access.
So, you're mad people don't make themselves a open target for you, but when they do go out into dangerous space you get mad? Have to agree with Sibyyl on this one, you shouldn't be discouraging them to try conflict from an npc corp. |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 05:15:42 -
[1432] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
No Joe, we need more ways for NPC Corpies to get blown up, and more reasons for them to undock and have fun.
Restricting them from dangerous areas of space is a nice way to get people to quit from boredom.
I've been casually trying to find a niche in Eve. All I know is that every time I've settled into a group it's been destroyed by high sec war decs. I have no idea what the answer is. I've rarely posted on the forums and it hasn't gone well when I've decided to.
I actually found Eve through Dust. Dust is plagued by passive play in a small arena where people are acting as though there is a huge sandbox. The fear of asset loss vs the lack of proper incentives has turned the majority of players into pacifists. Over the years I've read people's comparisons to Eve yet there's nothing to do do but PvP. Eve allows people to be super casual without affecting serious players by boring them to death.
I think the trolls that war dec high sec corps are similar to people in Dust that create alts to crush noobs in the Academy (a 3 or 4 match beginner mode for new players). It serves no good purpose. If there is one that I'm not aware of its far outweighed by the negatives. You can check out the leaderboards in Dust, at the top of the leaderboard for all time kills you'll see Molon Labe. It is dead now, but it there have been a couple thousand players run through that corp. I was a founding member and a director for 2 years. I know of dozens of players who tried out Eve and just let their trial run out because of high sec war decs. They don't even know how to fit a ship and Marmite is blowing them up with strategic cruisers.
I think war decs have a place. I think they should be a thing, but there should be some strategy and more of a financial burden on declaring high sec war. I was in Manu Fortius last year. Over a hundred carebears mining, mission running and even some roams through low sec. After about a month we started getting dec'd. The first 3 didn't net a single loss, I think the 4th killed a guy in an expensive mission running ship. The 5th didn't kill anything, but largely killed the corp. 5 war decs, one kill. Yet it's a thing. It doesn't seem like there's any real choice there. Just dudes getting lulz at the expense of CCP's newest customers.
I'm headed to null with one character and to a wormhole with another. Maybe after getting a real taste of Eve I'll troll a guy complaining about high sec war decs, but I doubt it. I'll probably make fun of the people who embrace the spirit of New Eden while running off new players before they get a chance to learn what all the game offers. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
804
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 06:09:21 -
[1433] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
No Joe, we need more ways for NPC Corpies to get blown up, and more reasons for them to undock and have fun.
Restricting them from dangerous areas of space is a nice way to get people to quit from boredom.
You missed the point...
I am a casual player... I could give a damn who's in low, null, wh, or NPC corps.
That said, the only issue I see with NPC corps is that they allow player living in less secure areas to have an alt that is safe from harm, unless they get suicide ganked.
Then you have those that run roams solo and fleeted, with an NPC corp character, which can't be wardecced.
So he just runs off to the safety of HS at the end of the day.
So, lock players to faction territory, so they can't use and alt to buy and transport good free of harm unless suicide ganked.
Null/low/wh players also won't be able to use NPC alts to transport goods to and from null/wh/low...
However, those casuals that are just running missions or whatever, aren't hindering anything... Yes, they'll be locked into faction HS unless they join a cop, but ehh..
This is more a nerf on safe alts to support war as opposed to nerfing NPC corps. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
804
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 06:15:24 -
[1434] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
even some roams through low sec.
This may have a good bit to do with why y'all got wardecced fairly often...
The more engaged your corp is in PVP, the more likely your corp is to get war decced.
It's one thing if you defend yourselves well, but another if you're out hunting kills. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6262
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 06:39:44 -
[1435] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:Too many people embrace the philosophy of "Can't win, why try?" before actually discovering whether or not this is true... as such their expectations are generally met. But most can;t win. The reason people have wardecced them is because they have been selected as a weak enough target to nearly guarantee a win. Again this all boils down to wardec mechanics rewarding most for picking the weakest targets.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
162
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 07:04:08 -
[1436] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Too many people embrace the philosophy of "Can't win, why try?" before actually discovering whether or not this is true... as such their expectations are generally met. But most can;t win. The reason people have wardecced them is because they have been selected as a weak enough target to nearly guarantee a win. Again this all boils down to wardec mechanics rewarding most for picking the weakest targets.
This got me wondering, are killboards used as a source of intel on who the weakest are?
And if so, why don't the hi-sec corp people go on low/null roams to get a feel for combat.
In other words, get some claws.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
85
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 07:11:59 -
[1437] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:Sibyyl wrote:
No Joe, we need more ways for NPC Corpies to get blown up, and more reasons for them to undock and have fun.
Restricting them from dangerous areas of space is a nice way to get people to quit from boredom.
I've been casually trying to find a niche in Eve. All I know is that every time I've settled into a group it's been destroyed by high sec war decs. I have no idea what the answer is. I've rarely posted on the forums and it hasn't gone well when I've decided to. I actually found Eve through Dust. Dust is plagued by passive play in a small arena where people are acting as though there is a huge sandbox. The fear of asset loss vs the lack of proper incentives has turned the majority of players into pacifists. Over the years I've read people's comparisons to Eve yet there's nothing to do do but PvP. Eve allows people to be super casual without affecting serious players by boring them to death. I think the trolls that war dec high sec corps are similar to people in Dust that create alts to crush noobs in the Academy (a 3 or 4 match beginner mode for new players). It serves no good purpose. If there is one that I'm not aware of its far outweighed by the negatives. You can check out the leaderboards in Dust, at the top of the leaderboard for all time kills you'll see Molon Labe. It is dead now, but it there have been a couple thousand players run through that corp. I was a founding member and a director for 2 years. I know of dozens of players who tried out Eve and just let their trial run out because of high sec war decs. They don't even know how to fit a ship and Marmite is blowing them up with strategic cruisers. I think war decs have a place. I think they should be a thing, but there should be some strategy and more of a financial burden on declaring high sec war. I was in Manu Fortius last year. Over a hundred carebears mining, mission running and even some roams through low sec. After about a month we started getting dec'd. The first 3 didn't net a single loss, I think the 4th killed a guy in an expensive mission running ship. The 5th didn't kill anything, but largely killed the corp. 5 war decs, one kill. Yet it's a thing. It doesn't seem like there's any real choice there. Just dudes getting lulz at the expense of CCP's newest customers. I'm headed to null with one character and to a wormhole with another. Maybe after getting a real taste of Eve I'll troll a guy complaining about high sec war decs, but I doubt it. I'll probably make fun of the people who embrace the spirit of New Eden while running off new players before they get a chance to learn what all the game offers.
This is a very sensible post. As a new player you should know that EVE was very successful before the introduction of the war declaration system. It had to be nerfed shortly after it's introduction because, a notorious alliance decided to war dec as many corps as it could. There was a much greater allowance of corps to war dec than the three slots they have now. Also the price was much cheaper. Rather than CCP seeing this as a sign, they decided to keep it, and the scenario you described has killed the NPE for many like your friends.
The game existed and thrived before war decs, they aren't at all necessary and they don't add anything to the game. If they exist at all, it should be based around sov and sov mechanics. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
85
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 07:21:28 -
[1438] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:Too many people embrace the philosophy of "Can't win, why try?" before actually discovering whether or not this is true... as such their expectations are generally met. But most can;t win. The reason people have wardecced them is because they have been selected as a weak enough target to nearly guarantee a win. Again this all boils down to wardec mechanics rewarding most for picking the weakest targets. why don't the hi-sec corp people go on low/null roams to get a feel for combat. In other words, get some claws.
Answer:
- gatecamps
- blobs
- T3 cruisers
- high skill training times
- low isk amounts for new players
- no social interactions due to lack of knowledge of the game
- bad game design
- PVE ship fitting philosophy different to PVP ship fitting philosophy
Take your pick you can't be wrong this is EVE. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6265
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 07:25:12 -
[1439] - Quote
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:This got me wondering, are killboards used as a source of intel on who the weakest are? They can be, but there's a whole range of different ways.
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:And if so, why don't the hi-sec corp people go on low/null roams to get a feel for combat.
In other words, get some claws. Maybe because they don't want to? Contrary to popular belief, there's a lot more to do in EVE than shoot people, and there are groups who want to exist to do something that isn't pew pew. If the answer is "learn to shoot people", that's effectively writing off players corps as only for people who want to shoot other people, which is pretty much an exaggeration of the problem there is now.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Nevil Oscillator
202
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 08:48:07 -
[1440] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Avaelica Kuershin wrote:This got me wondering, are killboards used as a source of intel on who the weakest are? They can be, but there's a whole range of different ways. Avaelica Kuershin wrote:And if so, why don't the hi-sec corp people go on low/null roams to get a feel for combat.
In other words, get some claws. Maybe because they don't want to? Contrary to popular belief, there's a lot more to do in EVE than shoot people, and there are groups who want to exist to do something that isn't pew pew. If the answer is "learn to shoot people", that's effectively writing off players corps as only for people who want to shoot other people, which is pretty much an exaggeration of the problem there is now.
Ha ha.. What's this ? expecting people in an RP game to be capable of visualising a perspective other than their own ? |
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Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
162
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 09:52:48 -
[1441] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Avaelica Kuershin wrote:And if so, why don't the hi-sec corp people go on low/null roams to get a feel for combat.
In other words, get some claws. Maybe because they don't want to? Contrary to popular belief, there's a lot more to do in EVE than shoot people, and there are groups who want to exist to do something that isn't pew pew. If the answer is "learn to shoot people", that's effectively writing off players corps as only for people who want to shoot other people, which is pretty much an exaggeration of the problem there is now. Ha ha.. What's this ? expecting people in an RP game to be capable of visualising a perspective other than their own ?
Which is why I went on a null-sec roam to get a feel for something different. Primarily I spend my time between exploration and (skill queue online) for industry.
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Tao Dolcino
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
375
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 10:01:37 -
[1442] - Quote
I think that the main reason why players don't join a corpo is that the recruitment subforum is not at all representative of the wide choice of corporations in EVE. It's only representative of the corporations who advertise, and who are at 95% PvP oriented corpos.
There are a lot of corporations for people who don't wish to set PvP as their main goal, but they are mostly invisible.
CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
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Nevil Oscillator
202
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 11:37:03 -
[1443] - Quote
Tao Dolcino wrote:I think that the main reason why players don't join a corpo is that the recruitment subforum is not at all representative of the wide choice of corporations in EVE. It's only representative of the corporations who advertise, and who are at 95% PvP oriented corpos (strong discipline, hierarchy, minimum SP, minimum commitment, TS3 obligatory, full API etc...)
There are a lot of corporations for people who don't wish to set PvP as their main goal, and who want a more relaxed and family atmosphere, but they are mostly invisible.
Dunno, Fac war corps seem to like noobs but doctrine fleets probably need people that can fly specific Battleships, T2 Logistics, Strategic cruisers ect..
I don't know much about mining corps but again they are fleet effective and fleet defensive at certain level if that is the stage they have achieved.
You probably find Noob corps are more likely to recruit noob players. Is a one year CEO going to know how to effectively use a 8 year player ?
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:Nevil Oscillator wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Avaelica Kuershin wrote:And if so, why don't the hi-sec corp people go on low/null roams to get a feel for combat.
In other words, get some claws. Maybe because they don't want to? Contrary to popular belief, there's a lot more to do in EVE than shoot people, and there are groups who want to exist to do something that isn't pew pew. If the answer is "learn to shoot people", that's effectively writing off players corps as only for people who want to shoot other people, which is pretty much an exaggeration of the problem there is now. Ha ha.. What's this ? expecting people in an RP game to be capable of visualising a perspective other than their own ? Which is why I went on a null-sec roam to get a feel for something different. Primarily I spend my time between exploration and (skill queue online) for industry.
OK, yeah me too , that and the fact high sec exploration loot is a bit lame |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 15:03:28 -
[1444] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Orion Nex wrote:
even some roams through low sec.
This may have a good bit to do with why y'all got wardecced fairly often... The more engaged your corp is in PVP, the more likely your corp is to get war decced. It's one thing if you defend yourselves well, but another if you're out hunting kills.
Yes, but there was no killing lol. It would be like a 5 year old getting an at bat against a MLB pitcher. It was about exposing people to it.
I understand what you are saying, but there were two people that wrote industrial blogs in the leadership of the corp. it had nothing to do with the roams. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
804
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:03:44 -
[1445] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:[quote=Joe Risalo]
Yes, but there was no killing lol. It would be like a 5 year old getting an at bat against a MLB pitcher. It was about exposing people to it.
I understand what you are saying, but there were two people that wrote industrial blogs in the leadership of the corp. it had nothing to do with the roams.
That would likely be another reason for war deccing your corp.
You KB showed you were willing to fight, but sucked at it fairly badly.
Don't get me wrong, I suck at PVP, but when you put yourself out there for others to see, you become a bigger target.
Out of sight out of mind.... It actually applies to Eve. |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:16:10 -
[1446] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Orion Nex wrote:[quote=Joe Risalo]
Yes, but there was no killing lol. It would be like a 5 year old getting an at bat against a MLB pitcher. It was about exposing people to it.
I understand what you are saying, but there were two people that wrote industrial blogs in the leadership of the corp. it had nothing to do with the roams. That would likely be another reason for war deccing your corp. You KB showed you were willing to fight, but sucked at it fairly badly. Don't get me wrong, I suck at PVP, but when you put yourself out there for others to see, you become a bigger target. Out of sight out of mind.... It actually applies to Eve.
That's what happens. People leave those corps to avoid the wardec. Without the social aspect and the assistance provided within those corps the players just leave Eve.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13339
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:18:20 -
[1447] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
That's what happens. People leave those corps to avoid the wardec. Without the social aspect and the assistance provided within those corps the players just leave Eve.
If the price of their sub is the removal of non consensual PvP, then it's no big loss.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:29:29 -
[1448] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote:
That's what happens. People leave those corps to avoid the wardec. Without the social aspect and the assistance provided within those corps the players just leave Eve.
If the price of their sub is the removal of non consensual PvP, then it's no big loss.
How would changing the mechanics of high sec war decs remove non consensual PvP?
It's one thing to war dec someone to take a bunch of POCOs, there's something tangible that the attacker is trying to obtain. Whenever the attacker is doing it solely for the lulz and it's clearly hurting NPE I'd say that's a problem.
Throughout all the corps I've been in I've seen at least two dozen war decs and none of them have netted enough resources to make the war dec itself worthwhile. Yet they still continue.
There's a reason why Marmite and the like aren't out there war decing entities that have the experience necessary to put up a fight.
I think what CODE does is perfect for the New Eden experience for high sec. War decs usually just make people stay docked up, not log in, and/or go to an NPC corp where they usually lose interest and stop playing. |
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:31:24 -
[1449] - Quote
[/quote]
I think what CODE does is perfect for the New Eden experience for high sec. War decs usually just make people stay docked up, not log in, and/or go to an NPC corp where they usually lose interest and stop playing.[/quote]
yarp. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13339
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:38:46 -
[1450] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
How would changing the mechanics of high sec war decs remove non consensual PvP?
The same way that "changing the mechanics" of awoxing removed non consensual PvP. In the end, there is much less non consensual PvP. That is, without exception, a bad thing.
Besides, I'd like to see your reasoning behind why wardecs, an already weak mechanic, would need to be made still weaker.
Quote:
It's one thing to war dec someone to take a bunch of POCOs, there's something tangible that the attacker is trying to obtain. Whenever the attacker is doing it solely for the lulz and it's clearly hurting NPE I'd say that's a problem.
Except that, per CCP themselves, doing it just for lulz increases net retention of new players. Those involved in PvP combat are an order of magnitude more likely to resub.
I'd say that's not only not a problem, but it's something that needs to be proliferated, since we know it has a net positive effect.
Quote:
There's a reason why Marmite and the like aren't out there war decing entities that have the experience necessary to put up a fight.
You mean like Goonswarm, one of the largest groups in the game, with some of the most experienced players, whom Marmite has had decced more often than not? Or how about when Marmite and CODE were deccing one another a while back?
Or maybe you just don't have a clue what you're talking about?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
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Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:41:19 -
[1451] - Quote
I think what CODE does is perfect for the New Eden experience for high sec. War decs usually just make people stay docked up, not log in, and/or go to an NPC corp where they usually lose interest and stop playing.[/quote]
yarp. by the way the average population is 20k accounts these days.[/quote]
I'm not blowing the Eve is dying horn. I've spent an obscene amount of money on CCP products. I'm a fan.
I just think you can have the greatest tutorial system ever dreamed up by a game developer, but it wouldn't matter if groups of veterans are there to stomp out their sandbox before they even understand the tools at their disposal to play in the sandbox. |
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:44:49 -
[1452] - Quote
Im not blowing the dying horn either. EVE is deader than it has been in several years, flat fact. Things don't have to live or die, they can just get really thin.
And no, "summer" isn't enough of an excuse for 20k. |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:46:45 -
[1453] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote:
How would changing the mechanics of high sec war decs remove non consensual PvP?
The same way that "changing the mechanics" of awoxing removed non consensual PvP. In the end, there is much less non consensual PvP. That is, without exception, a bad thing. Besides, I'd like to see your reasoning behind why wardecs, an already weak mechanic, would need to be made still weaker. Quote:
It's one thing to war dec someone to take a bunch of POCOs, there's something tangible that the attacker is trying to obtain. Whenever the attacker is doing it solely for the lulz and it's clearly hurting NPE I'd say that's a problem.
Except that, per CCP themselves, doing it just for lulz increases net retention of new players. Those involved in PvP combat are an order of magnitude more likely to resub. I'd say that's not only not a problem, but it's something that needs to be proliferated, since we know it has a net positive effect. Quote:
There's a reason why Marmite and the like aren't out there war decing entities that have the experience necessary to put up a fight.
You mean like Goonswarm, one of the largest groups in the game, with some of the most experienced players, whom Marmite has had decced more often than not? Or how about when Marmite and CODE were deccing one another a while back? Or maybe you just don't have a clue what you're talking about?
You are absolutely correct in that I don't know much relative to you about Eve. I'm just a dude that has seen the effects of the repeated war decs. I have no doubt that a group like Marmite could fight better players, they just choose not to. They'd rather troll newbros. It's a sandbox after all.
Have they not effectively nerfed the ability for people to make ISK in high sec with the changes to Industry? Why not do it more and make high sec safer for newbros? Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But I believe that player retention would go up. Players would be able to thrive and learn the game, but would likely want to seek better opportunities while understanding the risks of low and null sec.
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:49:02 -
[1454] - Quote
Incursions broke the hi-sec ISK faucet. It's broke until they fix it. Industry is kind of a joke unless you're ancient. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1677
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:51:49 -
[1455] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:And no, "summer" isn't enough of an excuse for 20k.
It depends of who you are talking with.... Some people always find reason why in this particular time there should be low number of players active.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13339
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 16:54:13 -
[1456] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
You are absolutely correct in that I don't know much relative to you about Eve. I'm just a dude that has seen the effects of the repeated war decs.
And I'm telling you that your anecdotes don't mean a thing compared to what CCP has told us about the matter.
Quote:
Have they not effectively nerfed the ability for people to make ISK in high sec with the changes to Industry?
Nope. Highsec is, beyond the rest of the game combined, the largest point of "creation" on that delightful dotted map they gave us some time ago.
Quote:
Why not do it more and make high sec safer for newbros?
If you make "highsec" less than two dozen systems, sure.
Quote:
Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But I believe that player retention would go up.
You are wrong. Space violence is directly correlated with increased retention. That's not up for debate.
Quote:
Players would be able to thrive and learn the game, but would likely want to seek better opportunities while understanding the risks of low and null sec.
That's what highsec has been for the past decade. It doesn't work.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
88
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:00:17 -
[1457] - Quote
Okay so people keep confusing wardec with "non consensual PVP". It is not non consensual PVP it is a change in the security status for a single corporation.
hat CODE does with high sec ganking is non consensual PVP. Wardes are a for of sec status change. setting the EVE Online criminal system to 0.0 sec criminal settings. In other words wardecs remove penalties from criminal activity making high sec PVP less harsh.
EVE is supposed to be harsh, why make it so easy on criminals? |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13339
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:11:07 -
[1458] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Okay so people keep confusing wardec with "non consensual PVP". It is not non consensual PVP it is a change in the security status for a single corporation.
One that they did not agree to. Or, put a different way, they did not consent to.
Quote:
EVE is supposed to be harsh, why make it so easy on criminals?
Because wars are not criminal activity. They are lawful activity.
Also because everyone is supposed to die, and no one is supposed to be exempt. Ships getting blown up turns the wheels of the economy.
Further, because wars act as a much needed isk sink.
Still further, whether you like it or not, highsec PvP combat is pretty much the only thing in highsec left with such restrictions and punishments on their playstyle. Yours certainly has none, now that standings have been decoupled from station use. Thus, we are enabled to be the risk that is lacking from your otherwise easymode playstyle(s).
We are what makes EVE harsh.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:14:15 -
[1459] - Quote
the only thing ccp did that was relevant with hisec was make incursions. Why do think every alt is battleship trained? To make the ISK to transfer to the main for "fun stuff" maybe in low or null.
This is part of why Industry is so stupid, or even serious mining. People are getting no-risk money with stupid incursions, meanwhile CODE thinks they're doing something so useful by griefing new players. It's a total joke, and this whole time the counts are dropping.
both CODE and CCP are horrible entities right now. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
88
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:18:11 -
[1460] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
You are absolutely correct in that I don't know much relative to you about Eve. I'm just a dude that has seen the effects of the repeated war decs. I have no doubt that a group like Marmite could fight better players, they just choose not to. They'd rather troll newbros. It's a sandbox after all.
Have they not effectively nerfed the ability for people to make ISK in high sec with the changes to Industry? Why not do it more and make high sec safer for newbros? Hey, maybe I'm wrong. But I believe that player retention would go up. Players would be able to thrive and learn the game, but would likely want to seek better opportunities while understanding the risks of low and null sec.
No you know more than this guy about EVE. Don't buy into the "I'm tough because I like to suffer" mentality these folks try to promote. They don't stay at war constantly, and their corps are drying up from a lack of player retention. That's why they want CCP to further nerf high sec so people will run to their silly alliances in the hopes of making isk. |
|
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
88
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:19:40 -
[1461] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:the only thing ccp did that was relevant with hisec was make incursions. Why do think every alt is battleship trained? To make the ISK to transfer to the main for "fun stuff" maybe in low or null.
This is part of why Industry is so stupid, or even serious mining. People are getting no-risk money with stupid incursions, meanwhile CODE thinks they're doing something so useful by griefing new players. It's a total joke, and this whole time the counts are dropping.
both CODE and CCP are horrible entities right now.
Incursions are fine man. The isk supply needs to keep up with inflation. |
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:21:31 -
[1462] - Quote
theyre arent fine. why run a POS and deal with CODE when you can run risk-free ISK pinatas. They aren't fine at all. but neither is CODE with cowardly harrassment.
It's effed at both ends. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13344
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:31:52 -
[1463] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:People are getting no-risk money with stupid incursions, meanwhile CODE thinks they're doing something so useful by griefing new players.
First of all, it's not "griefing" by the only definition that matters, CCP's definition.
Secondly, according to the only authority that matters, CCP, new players getting blown up directly correlates to their likelihood of subscribing to the game.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:33:36 -
[1464] - Quote
Honestly dude I dont care what you think, or what definitions you feel are so important to use. Your entity is a scourge to the game bottom line. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13344
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:36:20 -
[1465] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Honestly dude I dont care what you think, or what definitions you feel are so important to use. Your entity is a scourge to the game bottom line.
Except that we're not. In fact, by all indications, we're a distinct and noticeable positive, whether you like it or not.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Lupe Meza
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
134
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:37:47 -
[1466] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Honestly dude I dont care what you think, or what definitions you feel are so important to use. Your entity is a scourge to the game bottom line.
Just ignore them and engage in all the game activities that are evil and bad because..well, they give you options for not interacting with them.
They are only a threat to the bottom line if CCP actually listened to them. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
269
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:54:51 -
[1467] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ivant Sumboodi wrote:People are getting no-risk money with stupid incursions, meanwhile CODE thinks they're doing something so useful by griefing new players. First of all, it's not "griefing" by the only definition that matters, CCP's definition. Secondly, according to the only authority that matters, CCP, new players getting blown up directly correlates to their likelihood of subscribing to the game.
but to be blown up over and over doesn't directly correlate to their likelihood of unsubscribing from the game?
i'd agree what you bring to the game does add content, but who monitors the adverse affects of your actions? because you can't claim it's not caused players to quit.
good with the bad i guess, i just wanted to point out that you can't claim your actions have only had good reactions and not bad as far as subs go.
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6269
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 17:59:39 -
[1468] - Quote
Tao Dolcino wrote:I think that the main reason why players don't join a corpo is that the recruitment subforum is not at all representative of the wide choice of corporations in EVE. It's only representative of the corporations who advertise, and who are at 95% PvP oriented corpos (strong discipline, hierarchy, minimum SP, minimum commitment, TS3 obligatory, full API etc...)
There are a lot of corporations for people who don't wish to set PvP as their main goal, and who want a more relaxed and family atmosphere, but they are mostly invisible. The main reason they are invisible (at least in highsec, we have many in null) is that the moment a PvE corp is visible in highsec they are repeatedly wardecced. It's a pretty quick way of painting a target on your face as it's saying "hey, our members aren't interested in and likely not capable of fighting back, please kill us". This is why wardec mechanics need to reward people more for fighting challenging opponents and less for attacking the soft targets.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1677
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 18:04:05 -
[1469] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:We are what makes EVE harsh.
(makes notes)
Hm.... that's interesting... So to change nature of the game to something more popular and interesting CCP only needs to ban some people....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6269
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 18:10:26 -
[1470] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You mean like Goonswarm, one of the largest groups in the game, with some of the most experienced players, whom Marmite has had decced more often than not? Or how about when Marmite and CODE were deccing one another a while back?
Or maybe you just don't have a clue what you're talking about? Lol, as if you don't know that null sec groups are incredibly easy targets in highsec. To be fair, I can never tell if you're just playing ignorant.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You are wrong. Space violence is directly correlated with increased retention. That's not up for debate. This is a misrepresentation of facts. CCP have stated that interaction is what increases retention, and space violence is on a part of that. What you want is only space violence and to see the end of other styles of play. That's as bad as the exact opposite.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ivant Sumboodi wrote:People are getting no-risk money with stupid incursions, meanwhile CODE thinks they're doing something so useful by griefing new players. First of all, it's not "griefing" by the only definition that matters, CCP's definition. Secondly, according to the only authority that matters, CCP, new players getting blown up directly correlates to their likelihood of subscribing to the game. Of course it is, even devs have called it that, it's just that certain types of griefing are allowed in this game, which is fine, it's their choice. You literally shoot noobs and provoke them in chat and mail to havest tears for a blog. That's a textbook definition of griefing. It is what it is, nothing will change that.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13344
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 18:39:25 -
[1471] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:We are what makes EVE harsh. (takes notes) Hm.... that's interesting... So to change nature of the game to something more popular and interesting CCP only needs to ban some people....
Is this another of your "Flat Earth" theories?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13344
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 18:40:56 -
[1472] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but to be blown up over and over doesn't directly correlate to their likelihood of unsubscribing from the game?
Nope.
It's time for you carebears to conjure up a new bullshit narrative. That one's worn out.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 18:45:22 -
[1473] - Quote
The fact is that you're pissing in a smaller and smaller pool, and either you don't realize that or you don't care. That is why you are basically a cockroach. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13344
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 18:46:57 -
[1474] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:The fact is that you're pissing in a smaller and smaller pool, and either you don't realize that or you don't care. That is why you are basically a cockroach.
Tell me how you really feel.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
1868
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 18:57:57 -
[1475] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Honestly dude I dont care what you think, or what definitions you feel are so important to use. Your entity is a scourge to the game bottom line. Except that we're not. In fact, by all indications, we're a distinct and noticeable positive, whether you like it or not.
Getting ganked was litterally "the 1%" in the chart. Interaction is what CCP need to direct it's noob toward. Ganking can work but it's not a big driver. You could even be a statistical anomaly with data like that. Please remember that when making sweeping statement about how you are a distinct positive to the bottom line.
Your only proven positive positive as of right now is paying your sub one way or another. |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
269
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:05:53 -
[1476] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but to be blown up over and over doesn't directly correlate to their likelihood of unsubscribing from the game?
Nope.It's time for you carebears to conjure up a new bullshit narrative. That one's worn out.
LOL the silly CODE role player thinks i'm a carebear hahahahahaha.
thanks for the link. i stand corrected. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13347
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:07:31 -
[1477] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but to be blown up over and over doesn't directly correlate to their likelihood of unsubscribing from the game?
Nope.It's time for you carebears to conjure up a new bullshit narrative. That one's worn out. LOL the silly CODE role player thinks i'm a carebear hahahahahaha. thanks for the link. i stand corrected.
Carebear is a state of mind, my friend. The point stands regardless.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:13:47 -
[1478] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
but to be blown up over and over doesn't directly correlate to their likelihood of unsubscribing from the game?
Nope.It's time for you carebears to conjure up a new bullshit narrative. That one's worn out. LOL the silly CODE role player thinks i'm a carebear hahahahahaha. thanks for the link. i stand corrected. Carebear is a state of mind, my friend. The point stands regardless.
well you tell me so,, what's a carebear ?
and yes the points stands, care to share your feelings on that once more. go on,,, you guys love patting yourselves on the back
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13347
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:15:10 -
[1479] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
and yes the points stands, care to share your feelings on that once more.
Certainly. Counter to the assertions of some, including in this thread, ganking in general does not cost subs. And that's the end of it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:23:57 -
[1480] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
and yes the points stands, care to share your feelings on that once more.
Certainly. Counter to the assertions of some, including in this thread, ganking in general does not cost subs. And that's the end of it.
to say it costs none is a lie and you know it.
so you're not willing to go into what you think a carebear is? i wonder why
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13347
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:25:32 -
[1481] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
to say it costs none is a lie and you know it.
Net, obviously. And as before, regarding new players, as per the link I provided.
Quote:so you're not willing to go into what you think a carebear is? i wonder why
A carebear is someone who opposes the existence of non consensual PvP. Typically, they do so out of selfishness as they would stand to benefit from the removal of such.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
2481
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:26:10 -
[1482] - Quote
The existence of ganking also creates subs. |
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:35:08 -
[1483] - Quote
Ruminating on "carebears" ls literally 10 yrs ago tech. look at the population right now and be a real person. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13350
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:36:15 -
[1484] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Ruminating on "carebears" ls literally 10 yrs ago tech. look at the population right now and be a real person.
You mean the population that goes lower and lower, while highsec gets safer and safer?
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:38:17 -
[1485] - Quote
The population that is smaller, and safer in nullsec and all have incursion hisec alts. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:40:46 -
[1486] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Ruminating on "carebears" ls literally 10 yrs ago tech. look at the population right now and be a real person. You mean the population that goes lower and lower, while highsec gets safer and safer?
Did CCP map where those player no longer logging in were from/were doing in game before vanishing? |
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:41:02 -
[1487] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
A carebear is someone who opposes the existence of non consensual PvP. Typically, they do so out of selfishness as they would stand to benefit from the removal of such.
your idea of a carebear is a strange one.
there is no such thing as non consensual PVP in EVE, you undock your open to being shot at regardless of what space you're in.
only the very new players don't fully get this. by that logic a carebear is a newb.
that's not a carebear
try again.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
1870
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:43:30 -
[1488] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
A carebear is someone who opposes the existence of non consensual PvP. Typically, they do so out of selfishness as they would stand to benefit from the removal of such.
your idea of a carebear is a strange one. there is no such thing as non consensual PVP in EVE, you undock your open to being shot at regardless of what space you're in. only the very new players don't fully get this. by that logic a carebear is a newb. that's not a carebear try again.
Actually, a lot of people never get this. It's one of the issue with this game. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
2483
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:46:01 -
[1489] - Quote
A carebear then is someone who doesn't acknowledge that by undocking they are consenting to PVP. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11285
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:46:28 -
[1490] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Ruminating on "carebears" ls literally 10 yrs ago tech. look at the population right now and be a real person. You mean the population that goes lower and lower, while highsec gets safer and safer?
But dag nabbit, that should work the other way around. What should happen is that CCPs buffs to safety in EVE should have meant more 'new players' didn't get griefed out of the game but 'bad people', resulting in higher revenue for CCP, resulting further in more 'stuff' for all of us because obviously a company making more money means that company gives customers it already has more stuff...just like how cell phone and cable companies always give existing customers the same deals they do new customers!!
I mean, it can't be possible that CCP made the game safer, making it boring for people who don't need to be cuddled and protected while not enticing more 'carebears' to come play. It's almost as if all the safety buffing DEVALUED the experience for the 'good guy' players (previously, surviving in EVE was a point of pride, now safeties and pop ups do all the work for you, yay) while enraging the 'bad guy' players enough to make them adapt and keep on being bad. That simply cannot be, it's almost like things work the opposite of what people expect, with up being down and gankers being player retention agents!
CCP must have not done it right. Perhaps the answer is even more safety! Yea, that will do it, if CCP will just keep digging that hole deeper, it will work and thousands of new players will join and sub and we'll get the 'better stuff' we've been waiting for for years. It has to work!
hashtag screw your sarcasm meters |
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:48:09 -
[1491] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
A carebear is someone who opposes the existence of non consensual PvP. Typically, they do so out of selfishness as they would stand to benefit from the removal of such.
your idea of a carebear is a strange one. there is no such thing as non consensual PVP in EVE, you undock your open to being shot at regardless of what space you're in. only the very new players don't fully get this. by that logic a carebear is a newb. that's not a carebear try again. Actually, a lot of people never get this. It's one of the issue with this game.
ah now come on,, not a lot,, i'd say a few who are lucky enough to have not been shot at or just don't notice what's going on in local.
i'd think most after 6 months know well they can be shot at no matter where they are.
i've met a few over the years that didn't get it. but most know better after a while.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13353
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:49:47 -
[1492] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:A carebear then is someone who doesn't acknowledge that by undocking they are consenting to PVP.
Someone gets the point.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2984
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:50:37 -
[1493] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Except that, per CCP themselves, doing it just for lulz increases net retention of new players. Those involved in PvP combat are an order of magnitude more likely to resub.
Kaarous,
I think there might be a bit of an endogeneity problem here. For example if you are using some sort of logistic regression model to look at this you might have a model like this:
R = a + b*(PvP)
Where R is your probability of re-subbing (and in your data it is either a 0 or a 1) and PvP is also dichotomous (0 for no PvP, 1 for PvP). In this case noting that people who are more likely to resub their account because they PvP are people who like to PvP or to put it differently they came to Eve to PvP. The plentiful opportunities means they have a higher probability to stick around. People who don't like PvP, but try out Eve...yeah, they'll likely leave.
So, should the game be changed for those who don't like PvP to try and keep them subscribed? And is there something to discuss about people who want to PvP, but find the NPE insufficient for them to run up Eve's rather steep learning curve?
Personally, I don't want to change the game to keep non-PvP oriented players in game. The edge case PvP players...yeah I think one could make an argument there for some changes.
Lastly, trying to get those not interested in PvP to PvP to try increase subscriber retention probably wont work. So forget about that case altogether.
What do you think?
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2984
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:50:52 -
[1494] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs.
Was just thinking this.
Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:53:00 -
[1495] - Quote
it's not about making HS safer necessarily, but not making some HS careers so so so much better than all of Industry combined. And having CODE nolifes convinced that they have better things to do.
This fixes EVE completely. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2984
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 19:53:22 -
[1496] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
A carebear is someone who opposes the existence of non consensual PvP. Typically, they do so out of selfishness as they would stand to benefit from the removal of such.
your idea of a carebear is a strange one. there is no such thing as non consensual PVP in EVE, you undock your open to being shot at regardless of what space you're in. only the very new players don't fully get this. by that logic a carebear is a newb. that's not a carebear try again.
I can be both against non-consensual PvP (note, I am not) and still undock my ship. You can argue that undocking means you are giving implicit acceptance to non-consensual PvP, but I can still oppose it.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:01:40 -
[1497] - Quote
"Opposing non-consensual pvp" os OP in this thread. You can have anytime-PVP while balancing the risk and rewards. CODE are just cockroaches feeding on a literally dying Industry mechanic.
Incursions are an imba hi-sec money faucet.
These are both facts at the same time. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13354
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:02:47 -
[1498] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:
*snip*
What do you think?
"should the game be changed for those who don't like PvP to try and keep them subscribed?"
No. PvP is the founding pillar upon which EVE Online is based. They're welcome to their playstyle as much as anyone else, but never it they want to claim that their playstyle is "I shouldn't have to defend myself".
Furthermore, as CCP has demonstrated for us with the Burner rats content, any PvE that CCP devises can be math hammered out and made trivial in far, far less time than it took a CCP employee to generate that content.
New PvE content that is not fundamentally dynamic therefore, becomes a waste of effort, as it is trivialized entirely too quickly. Heck, these new multiplayer Drifter dungeons they have devised? They had to keep them a secret until launch, or people would have min maxed their way through that one too.
As for, as you put them, "The edge case PvP players", I believe that there are more of them in the game than meets the eye. I don't think that everyone who mines or runs missions is a hopeless, iredeemable carebear. I think the NPE wrongly pushes players in that direction and ONLY in that direction, and that player conflict being so handcuffed in highsec is strongly contributing to that.
Consequently, I assign that as a large contributing factor as to why people unsub from boredom of chewing rocks. I hear time and again from miners and missioners that they "like" things the way they are, that they find such content "fun". Clearly, not all of them do, or they wouldn't be quitting in such numbers. Perhaps it's the very people who claim that they enjoy banality that are keeping this game from being improved for everyone else?
In summary, I believe that a PvE centric approach for the NPE, and highsec, is a proven failure. And I believe that CCP can't ignore that for too much longer, so the sacred cows of Concord, NPC corps and Incursions will find themselves approaching the guillotine.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:03:32 -
[1499] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:A carebear then is someone who doesn't acknowledge that by undocking they are consenting to PVP. Someone gets the point.
so a carebear is someone who doesn't understand the mechanics of PVP in EVE ?
or doesn't want too ?
2 totally different player types,,, both equally easy targets.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37890
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:06:14 -
[1500] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:i'd think most after 6 months know well they can be shot at no matter where they are.
i've met a few over the years that didn't get it. but most know better after a while.
Many that know, still oppose the idea.
They rage when they get shot at, they come and complain in the forum how pvp in highsec should be made harder (eg. -10s not allowed in highsec, high slot modules shouldn't work in highsec, non-consensual pvp should be removed from highsec because it's meant to be safe, etc) and they post ideas in the F&I forum designed to make themself safer while eliminating other people's play. They constantly call for nerfs to pvp and complain how pvp affect player retention without even attempting to understand whether that is true or not, just because they don't like it.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1081
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:07:43 -
[1501] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered.
That is exactly what CCP said at Fanfest and it makes perfect sense. It's not hard to imagine the thousands of players who started the trial expecting space battles and spent it mining or missioning solo and nothing at all interesting happens to them. All this bubble-wrapping of highsec in recent years has isolated most of them from even the hint of excitement and so they come to the conclusion that Eve is boring and do not subscribe.
CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6273
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:08:23 -
[1502] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered. Ganking is the most boring form of PvP however. It's literally shooting fish in a barrel. It's as likely to make people quit if its the main focus of the game as making the main focus of the game pure PvE. What CCP aim for, and what is generally created, is a balance. Ganking is alright, PvE is alright. Players like Kaarous are as bad as a carebear demanding pure safety, just on the other end of the spectrum, that's all.
Jenn aSide wrote:Opposing something is fine. Paying for a video game that enshrines the thing you oppose is stupid. Playing EVE while opposing non-consensual pvp is like playing WoW while harboring a rabid hatred of elves, orks and all such fantasy creatures. The problem you types fail to realise is that EVE is about a lot more that just that. Most games have something you don't like in it, that's the challenge, to avoid that. You play game with the intention of winning at whatever task it is you are aiming to accomplish and you avoid losing to the obstacles. Non-consensual PvP is simply an obstacle. There are ways to play EVE while reducing the risk of that obstacle, and there's no reason those should be removed, they are part of the game. The thing is, being in an NPC corp is just one of them. What makes me laugh is half the "hardcore" players like Kaarous are actively using another: remaining in highsec. "Grr, I hate people avoiding non-consensual PvP, yet I'm going to stay in a place that exists specifically to reduce exposure to non-consensual PvP". Makes no sense.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13354
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:11:55 -
[1503] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Ganking is the most boring form of PvP however.
Says the tireless defender of ISBotter?
You don't have anything to say but your usual drivel. Be gone.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:12:33 -
[1504] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered. Ganking is the most boring form of PvP however. It's literally shooting fish in a barrel. It's as likely to make people quit if its the main focus of the game as making the main focus of the game pure PvE. What CCP aim for, and what is generally created, is a balance. Ganking is alright, PvE is alright. Players like Kaarous are as bad as a carebear demanding pure safety, just on the other end of the spectrum, that's all. Jenn aSide wrote:Opposing something is fine. Paying for a video game that enshrines the thing you oppose is stupid. Playing EVE while opposing non-consensual pvp is like playing WoW while harboring a rabid hatred of elves, orks and all such fantasy creatures. The problem you types fail to realise is that EVE is about a lot more that just that. Most games have something you don't like in it, that's the challenge, to avoid that. You play game with the intention of winning at whatever task it is you are aiming to accomplish and you avoid losing to the obstacles. Non-consensual PvP is simply an obstacle. There are ways to play EVE while reducing the risk of that obstacle, and there's no reason those should be removed, they are part of the game. The thing is, being in an NPC corp is just one of them. What makes me laugh is half the "hardcore" players like Kaarous are actively using another: remaining in highsec. "Grr, I hate people avoiding non-consensual PvP, yet I'm going to stay in a place that exists specifically to reduce exposure to non-consensual PvP". Makes no sense.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2987
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:14:44 -
[1505] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
A carebear is someone who opposes the existence of non consensual PvP. Typically, they do so out of selfishness as they would stand to benefit from the removal of such.
your idea of a carebear is a strange one. there is no such thing as non consensual PVP in EVE, you undock your open to being shot at regardless of what space you're in. only the very new players don't fully get this. by that logic a carebear is a newb. that's not a carebear try again. I can be both against non-consensual PvP (note, I am not) and still undock my ship. You can argue that undocking means you are giving implicit acceptance to non-consensual PvP, but I can still oppose it. Opposing something is fine. Paying for a video game that enshrines the thing you oppose is stupid. Playing EVE while opposing non-consensual pvp is like playing WoW while harboring a rabid hatred of elves, orks and all such fantasy creatures.
I agree it is stupid, but you are daft if you think people don't do stupid things...even on purpose.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:17:36 -
[1506] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:i'd think most after 6 months know well they can be shot at no matter where they are.
i've met a few over the years that didn't get it. but most know better after a while.
Many that know, still oppose the idea. They rage when they get shot at, they come and complain in the forum how pvp in highsec should be made harder (eg. -10s not allowed in highsec, high slot modules shouldn't work in highsec, non-consensual pvp should be removed from highsec because it's meant to be safe, etc) and they post ideas in the F&I forum designed to make themself safer while eliminating other people's play. They constantly call for nerfs to pvp and complain how pvp affects player retention without even attempting to understand whether that is true or not, just because they don't like it.
oh i know, i've had to listen to more than a few of them over the years, priceless comedy, facts remain as they are though. players will play as they see fit and as long as it's fun they'll do it. when they grow bored of it or it's no longer fun most times they'll quit.
it's best to tell the new guys, you will lose more than a few ships before you get how things are. if you survive more than a year you'll stick around. for much longer. so how do we get more assholes in seats and get them to stay. i don't think the players are doing anything wrong at all.
more push from the sales team in CCP perhaps? we need more meat for the grinder! |
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:20:19 -
[1507] - Quote
Well... you could start by having them have something other Incursions and L4 missions to make them some damn money.
If they try industry, they're fking dead.
Also the assumption about people crying for HS to be made higher safety is now a bit of red herring. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37894
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:25:02 -
[1508] - Quote
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:
Many that know, still oppose the idea.
oh i know, i've had to listen to more than a few of them over the years, ...
Can I ask what was so strange about Kaarous's definition of a Carebear on the previous page then?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37896
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:29:42 -
[1509] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Also the assumption about people crying for HS to be made higher safety is now a bit of red herring.
It's not an assumption unfortunately. It's a very common thing around here.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6275
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:30:10 -
[1510] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:That is exactly what CCP said at Fanfest and it makes perfect sense. It's not hard to imagine the thousands of players who started the trial expecting space battles and spent it mining or missioning solo and nothing at all interesting happens to them. All this bubble-wrapping of highsec in recent years has isolated most of them from even the hint of excitement and so they come to the conclusion that Eve is boring and do not subscribe. It's not hard to imagine thousands of players who started the the expecting great PvE content and spent it getting shot at by vets either. Swings and roundabouts.
One thing that people tend to look at in a way that I find weird is the 2014 Fanfest new player stats. These stated that:
Of new players who sub -
50% leave in a month or so.
40% move into solo content, missioning/mining/etc
10% move into group/diverse play and those are the ones that stay (note, this does not just mean "pew pew PvP")
Now when a lot f people look at this they instantly start going on about how this means we must send noobies to get blown up, but I see it differently. What I see is that of the players who join and stick with the game (ie, the 2nd 50%), 4/5 of those players find PvE content in some way appealing, and they burn out or get bored. And it's because PvE content sucks. So rather than screaming "blow up more noobs!", expecting them to just fill out that 10%, like blowing them up is going to make them like the game more.
We should be screaming "make PvE content better and moreover better for groups". Encourage that 40% of new players into doing what they want but in a more social and interactive style. Thousands of people love mining and missioning. If PvE were more focussed on groups it would be a much bigger driver.
As it stands, in highsec there' no point in even attempting to make mining and missioning focussed groups since they instantly become targets for you lot, since you want easy kills. Remember that group content doesn't have to involve shooting anyone.
Black Pedro wrote:CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? How many of those people that state nothing? Is there even an option for that in the normal set of tickboxes, or is that something you have to pick "other" and type in. Even CCP themselves seemed to avoid making any concrete conclusions from that data.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6275
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:32:04 -
[1511] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Ganking is the most boring form of PvP however. Says the tireless defender of ISBotter? You don't have anything to say but your usual drivel. Be gone. At no point did I defend ISBoxer. Go ahead and check. Right back from the beginning I was suggesting better ways to make ISBoxer useless without having to risk banning manual multiboxers. Facts really aren't your strong point, are they?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13355
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:34:16 -
[1512] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Well... you could start by having them have something other Incursions and L4 missions to make them some damn money.
If they try industry, they're fking dead.
This is just funny, and it shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the market.
Incursions and L4s devalue everything else in the game, thanks to their sheer safety, ease of farming, and endless sustainability.
Meanwhile, you bitterly spit vitriol at the only people trying to do something about that, complaining that industry is "fking dead".
If more ships exploded, there would be a greater demand for industrially produced items. And if there wasn't one best, obvious choice for personal income above all else, people across disparate playstyle groups would have better purchasing power to drive sales.
It's really funny to see you scream about how you hate the way you've made your own bed.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37896
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:35:20 -
[1513] - Quote
Lucas, it might be worth going back and listening to CCP Rise in that 2014 presentation again.
From those stats, the 40% that go into solo play missioning/mining also tended not to stay with the game for very long.
So there was the 50% that left within a month or so, 40% that tended not to stay very long and 10% that end up as long term retained players.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13355
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:35:56 -
[1514] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:At no point did I defend ISBoxer.
Ha ha, what? That's damn near all you did for a solid month.
Quote: Right back from the beginning I was suggesting better ways to make ISBoxer useless without having to risk banning manual multiboxers.
They were never at risk, barring the obvious lies and smokescreen from the bot apologists in that thread, yourself included.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:41:25 -
[1515] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: stuff Black Pedro wrote:CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? How many of those people that state nothing? Is there even an option for that in the normal set of tickboxes, or is that something you have to pick "other" and type in. Even CCP themselves seemed to avoid making any concrete conclusions from that data.
I guess this does explain Incursions and the ridic payout, but did they have to sacrifice Industry to do it? I know the CODE cockroaches are more than happy to feed on the hapless, but it's depressing nonetheless. Also with population online and no newbies doing industrial stuff it just let's you know how centralized and controlled stuff is.
It's an old game so i guess "whatever". |
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:42:34 -
[1516] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Incursions broke the hi-sec ISK faucet. It's broke until they fix it. Industry is kind of a joke unless you're ancient.
Or just hate yourself |
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:43:36 -
[1517] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Incursions broke the hi-sec ISK faucet. It's broke until they fix it. Industry is kind of a joke unless you're ancient. Or just hate yourself
"lol" |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6275
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:44:12 -
[1518] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas, it might be worth going back and listening to CCP Rise in that 2014 presentation again.
From those stats, the 40% that go into solo play missioning/mining, which the old tutorial system led them towards, also tended not to stay with the game for very long.
So there was the 50% that left within a month or so, 40% that tended not to stay very long and 10% that end up as long term retained players. Yeah, that's my point. People are always saying "how can we turn that 40% into more for the 10%". What I'm saying is "what did that 40% want to do that can be improved so they stay on their own terms". To me they came in wanting a diverse PvE experience, and they got the barely passable red crosses and rocks that is EVE PvE. Make EVE PvE more varied and group friendly and they will get what they came for and likely stay longer.
Say for example you run a soup shop, and you sell an amazing chicken soup. You also sell a tomato soup from a tin.
50% of your walk ins don;t fancy soup and leave.
40% come in for tomato soup, but don;t come back because it's terrible.
10% come for the chicken soup and love it, returning every day.
Why try to find ways to make the 40% love chicken soup when you could simply make your tomato soup better? You've already done the hard part of getting them in the store, Now you just need to help them enjoy what they came in for.
Does that not make sense?
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13356
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:44:49 -
[1519] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
That's why I think ganking should be the danger in high sec. War decs would be to take over structures or something of high value.
I don't think any one thing should be "the" danger in highsec. (or just two things, either)
Only one thing is only one thing to watch out for. And I don't think it should be that simple, or that restricted.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
1874
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:50:18 -
[1520] - Quote
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:Lucas Kell wrote: stuff Black Pedro wrote:CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? How many of those people that state nothing? Is there even an option for that in the normal set of tickboxes, or is that something you have to pick "other" and type in. Even CCP themselves seemed to avoid making any concrete conclusions from that data. I guess this does explain Incursions and the ridic payout, but did they have to sacrifice Industry to do it? I know the CODE cockroaches are more than happy to feed on the hapless, but it's depressing nonetheless. Also with population online and no newbies doing industrial stuff it just let's you know how centralized and controlled stuff is. It's an old game so i guess "whatever".
Removing CODE. and all they do would not get more newbie into industry. What kills newbie with industry is how industry itself works. The vets are living off small margins the newbie needs weeks if not moth to get to even if they somehow instantly got the knowledge of how to.
Removing CODE. will not fix any "issue" with the game. Newbie need to be pushed toward any form of interaction with other players (yes players, not god damn alts) and this is true for every single "profession" in this game. Industry, mission, incursions, small gangs PVP, large fleet PVP,... This should all be geared toward taking new people to help you as opposed to one more "clone" of yourself.
You can't build ties to this game if all you do is play with yourself and the vast majority of player won't pay a monthly sub for a game they don't feel any attachment to. |
|
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Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:50:35 -
[1521] - Quote
CODE rips towers as fun, how would that make things diff? "Making stuctures important" or w/e |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1678
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:51:17 -
[1522] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:i'd think most after 6 months know well they can be shot at no matter where they are.
i've met a few over the years that didn't get it. but most know better after a while.
Many that know, still oppose the idea. They rage when they get shot at, they come and complain in the forum how pvp in highsec should be made harder (eg. -10s not allowed in highsec, high slot modules shouldn't work in highsec, non-consensual pvp should be removed from highsec because it's meant to be safe, etc) and they post ideas in the F&I forum designed to make themself safer while eliminating other people's play. They constantly call for nerfs to pvp and complain how pvp affects player retention without even attempting to understand whether that is true or not, just because they don't like it.
Truth be told lately i see a lot more whine and cry from Feyd, Kaarous and 'pro-pvp' company than from so called 'carebears'. Something happened....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:54:27 -
[1523] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:[quote=Ivant Sumboodi][quote=Lucas Kell] stuff
[quote=Black Pedro
You can't build ties to this game if all you do is play with yourself and the vast majority of player won't pay a monthly sub for a game they don't feel any attachment to.
Good point, I often forget such a thing.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13356
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:54:36 -
[1524] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:
Truth be told lately i see a lot more whine and cry from Feyd, Kaarous and 'pro-pvp' company than from so called 'carebears'. Something happened....
For my part, I never used to get on the forums at all until a few years ago.
Then I got tired of there being only one voice presented to CCP on the forums. If you'll notice, I'm not the one making threads. I just answer them.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:54:51 -
[1525] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote:
That's why I think ganking should be the danger in high sec. War decs would be to take over structures or something of high value.
I don't think any one thing should be "the" danger in highsec. (or just two things, either) Only one thing is only one thing to watch out for. And I don't think it should be that simple, or that restricted.
Right, I don't necessarily think it should be one thing.
I think making war decs cost prohibitive for just trolling would go a long way. Perhaps a better UI for corps to hire help if they are war dec'd? I wouldn't have a freakin clue how to get help.
From the sound of it CCP has data that's telling them the type of people I'm talking about protecting don't stay with the game anyway. Eve isn't a casual game, I'm sure that the new player retention is going to be low on any metric for such an in-depth game that has players with a 10 year head start.
From my perspective the playground where people MIGHT get attached to the game is full of mechanics that makes people play solo at a stage when they should be grouped up. If the answer to the problem is, leave your group of players that are teaching you the game, it seems like the root problem needs to be fixed. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1081
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:56:41 -
[1526] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered. That is exactly what CCP said at Fanfest and it makes perfect sense. It's not hard to imagine the thousands of players who started the trial expecting space battles and spent it mining or missioning solo and nothing at all interesting happens to them. All this bubble-wrapping of highsec in recent years has isolated most of them from even the hint of excitement and so they come to the conclusion that Eve is boring and do not subscribe. CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? If there's a large corp of high sec carebears that are socially playing the game together and exploring different avenues in Eve or the same group of players all in NPC corps derping around without a clue which is more likely to lead to subscriptions?
I have no idea what you are going on about. CCP Rise was talking about new players staying with the game. New players that experience combat, whether consensual or non-consensual like a gank are more likely to subscribe than players who spend the trial alone shooting rocks or levelling thier Raven.
Getting these new players out of the isolation of NPC corps and engaged with sandbox is the best path CCP sees to increase player retention. Whether that is into a PvP corp that preys on miners and industrialists with ganks and wardecs or into a highsec industrial corp that dodges these players while "exploring different avenues of Eve" is beside the point. The point is that it is player conflict which drives interactions is good for getting players, especially new players, engaged with the game. And in modern highsec, that conflict is an increasingly rare commodity.
What is demonstrably bad for the game is pandering to calls for increased safety by players out of self-interest who don't want to spend time or effort on thier defense. These "carebears" are not just confined to highsec however. They are in all spaces and deserved to be cleansed with fire (in-game of course) wherever they are found. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6276
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:58:55 -
[1527] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:At no point did I defend ISBoxer. Ha ha, what? That's damn near all you did for a solid month. You are mistaken. From the getgo the problem I had was with the way they were approaching the whole situation, not with them getting rid of ISBoxer. Here's a quote from me 5 days after the post started:
Lucas Kell wrote:At the end of the day CCP are treating a symptom here. The problem is that mining is boring as sin, bombers are too powerful, and the control system is far too simple all round. Fixing that by nuking out a single playstyle isn't fixing it.
The same was on my blog. I'd much rather CCP approached how easy and static the content is that ISBoxers tend towards. There's still solo players running incursions and mining in droves, so it's fixed nothing.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:They were never at risk, barring the obvious lies and smokescreen from the bot apologists in that thread, yourself included. You're wrong, Even CCP have admitted this. Unless of course you are claiming that CCP are completely infallible and never ever ever make mistakes.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 20:59:27 -
[1528] - Quote
best way to get out of isolation is getting your full API demanded. After all, it's the only way to run a legit corp. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37897
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:02:33 -
[1529] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah, that's my point. People are always saying "how can we turn that 40% into more for the 10%". What I'm saying is "what did that 40% want to do that can be improved so they stay on their own terms". To me they came in wanting a diverse PvE experience, and they got the barely passable red crosses and rocks that is EVE PvE. Make EVE PvE more varied and group friendly and they will get what they came for and likely stay longer.
Say for example you run a soup shop, and you sell an amazing chicken soup. You also sell a tomato soup from a tin.
50% of your walk ins don;t fancy soup and leave.
40% come in for tomato soup, but don;t come back because it's terrible.
10% come for the chicken soup and love it, returning every day.
Why try to find ways to make the 40% love chicken soup when you could simply make your tomato soup better? You've already done the hard part of getting them in the store, Now you just need to help them enjoy what they came in for.
Does that not make sense?
Ah ok. My slight misunderstanding on what you were getting at and I think in part Rise dealt with that some.
The aspect of that 40% wasn't that they were doing PvE as such (that was just what CCP recognised that the NPE directed that group towards). It was more that they moved into a very isolated playstyle (Rise's exact description if I remember correctly). It was more about them being isolated away from social experiences than it was about what they were actually doing.
PvE is rubbish in this game and I totally agree that any improvement in it would be welcome development for many, but I don't know that CCP would still want people to be doing it in an isolated manner. They'd much rather promote social interaction.
So with the soup example, I think what CCP might be seeing is:
50% don't buy
40% buy and eat on their own
10% shared their soup with someone else
that 10% isn't inly about pvp. PvE fits in there too. The whole thing was more about socialising than about the actual content, though improved content for everyone would be great and I think the whole sleeper/drifter coming invasion, new wirmholes accessible, new opportunities system, cruiser burner missions, shattered wormholes and development of the NPC AI show CCP are working on that.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13356
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:05:32 -
[1530] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
I think making war decs cost prohibitive for just trolling would go a long way.
CCP thought that too. Before they did precisely that, wardec groups were smaller and sporadic compared to these days.
Increasing costs just forced people to conglomerate into larger groups to preserve their playstyle. Now we have much larger groups.
It was much the same with ganking. People didn't used to min/max ganking down to minutiae, they did that in response to carebears crying for more "consequences" against their playstyle. Now they have to behave the way they do, if they want to preserve the way they play the game at all. And carebears still cry that ganking needs more punishments, and the only proof they offer is that ganking still happens at all, so it must need "just one more nerf", yet again. Their goal is not game balance, and it never was. Their endgame is the removal of PvP from highsec.
Restrictions are only going to raise the bar further, meaning that any wardec groups that survive the added restrictions are going to be increasingly impossible to take on for the average carebear group, who hasn't had to survive any adversity, because their playstyles don't have any. And so on until the only thing left is to ban it outright, or functionally remove it just like with awoxing.
Loosening the decade of unreasonable restrictions is the way forward.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
|
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Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:10:50 -
[1531] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Orion Nex wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered. That is exactly what CCP said at Fanfest and it makes perfect sense. It's not hard to imagine the thousands of players who started the trial expecting space battles and spent it mining or missioning solo and nothing at all interesting happens to them. All this bubble-wrapping of highsec in recent years has isolated most of them from even the hint of excitement and so they come to the conclusion that Eve is boring and do not subscribe. CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? If there's a large corp of high sec carebears that are socially playing the game together and exploring different avenues in Eve or the same group of players all in NPC corps derping around without a clue which is more likely to lead to subscriptions? I have no idea what you are going on about. CCP Rise was talking about new players staying with the game. New players that experience combat, whether consensual or non-consensual like a gank are more likely to subscribe than players who spend the trial alone shooting rocks or levelling thier Raven. Getting these new players out of the isolation of NPC corps and engaged with sandbox is the best path CCP sees to increase player retention. Whether that is into a PvP corp that preys on miners and industrialists with ganks and wardecs or into a highsec industrial corp that dodges these players while "exploring different avenues of Eve" is beside the point. The point is that it is player conflict which drives interactions is good for getting players, especially new players, engaged with the game. And in modern highsec, that conflict is an increasingly rare commodity. What is demonstrably bad for the game is pandering to calls for increased safety by players out of self-interest who don't want to spend time or effort on thier defense. These "carebears" are not just confined to highsec however. They are in all spaces and deserved to be cleansed with fire (in-game of course) wherever they are found.
I'm not calling for safety out of self-interest. At least not in the way I think you are talking about.
But I'd like for you to honest answer the question. If new players were joining corps in high sec and being introduced to the game wouldn't it be better than what you have now? If this happens currently they are guaranteed to get dec'd and they will disband 9/10.
It's one of those deals where you can want people to behave differently, but you have to do something to change it. I don't think there is anything you can do to make 100 miners band together to fight against Marmite in Hek. It sounds good, hey guys defend yourselves. But it's simply not happening.
People are saying the same things over and over back and forth. I'll join a corp right now if some experienced person wants to teach 100 guys how to beat Marmite with high sec mechanics. Would Marmite show up in numbers and we'd eventually have a 1000 ship battle in high sec? No, they wouldn't show up that's not the kind of fight they are looking for. Am I being hyperbolic, yes.
If those high sec groups were able to operate a bit without getting shut down with war decs they'd soon find as others have pointed out that the margins suck and they'd need to find something better to generate ISK.
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13356
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:14:09 -
[1532] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:
If those high sec groups were able to operate a bit without getting shut down with war decs they'd soon find as others have pointed out that the margins suck and they'd need to find something better to generate ISK.
They can already, wars can be trivially dodged without consequence.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:16:16 -
[1533] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote:
If those high sec groups were able to operate a bit without getting shut down with war decs they'd soon find as others have pointed out that the margins suck and they'd need to find something better to generate ISK.
They can already, wars can be trivially dodged without consequence.
Exactly, players leave corps to avoid war decs. Play solo for a while and quit.
It's not a difficult concept. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6279
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:24:54 -
[1534] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Ah ok. My slight misunderstanding on what you were getting at and I think in part Rise dealt with that some.
The aspect of that 40% wasn't that they were doing PvE as such (that was just what CCP recognised that the NPE directed that group towards). It was more that they moved into a very isolated playstyle (Rise's exact description if I remember correctly). It was more about them being isolated away from social experiences than it was about what they were actually doing.
PvE is rubbish in this game and I totally agree that any improvement in it would be welcome development for many, but I don't know that CCP would still want people to be doing it in an isolated manner. They'd much rather promote social interaction.
So with the soup example, I think what CCP might be seeing is:
50% don't buy
40% buy and eat on their own
10% share their soup with someone else
That 10% isn't only about pvp. PvE fits in there too. The whole thing was more about socialising than about the actual content, though improved content for everyone would be great and I think the whole sleeper/drifter coming invasion, new wormholes accessible, new opportunities system, cruiser burner missions, shattered wormholes and development of the NPC AI show CCP are working on that. He said that they go into an isolated playstyle, yes, but specifically stating missionioning and mining, mostly missioning and he use words along the lines of "the classic thempark". The problem is that most PvE isn't a group activity. People are isolated because that's the way the PvE content is designed. Incursions are an exception but they are very elitist and generally dominated by multiboxers due to their ease of farming. IMHO, they need more earlier group PvE content to encourage people to play together (and prefereably ways for PvE corps to actually exist), it shouldn't constantly be about finding new ways to encourage them to get blown up since they just aren't interested in that. This new content all seems geared towards veteran players who already interact.
Edit: I think we're somewhere along the same lines of thinking here, this thread simply isn't. This thread is basically "grr NPC corps", as if nuking those would suddenly force people to socialise rather than just quit.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1679
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:35:04 -
[1535] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:March rabbit wrote:
Truth be told lately i see a lot more whine and cry from Feyd, Kaarous and 'pro-pvp' company than from so called 'carebears'. Something happened....
For my part, I never used to get on the forums at all until a few years ago. Then I got tired of there being only one voice presented to CCP on the forums. If you'll notice, I'm not the one making threads. I just answer them.
Yea, right. And even without making new threads you are winning by large margin.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Nevil Oscillator
202
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:39:49 -
[1536] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:
CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game?
Yeah but if you quit because of that then you invent some other reason rather than admit it.
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Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1082
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:41:09 -
[1537] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:I'm not calling for safety out of self-interest. At least not in the way I think you are talking about.
But I'd like for you to honest answer the question. If new players were joining corps in high sec and being introduced to the game wouldn't it be better than what you have now? If this happens currently they are guaranteed to get dec'd and they will disband 9/10.
It's one of those deals where you can want people to behave differently, but you have to do something to change it. I don't think there is anything you can do to make 100 miners band together to fight against Marmite in Hek. It sounds good, hey guys defend yourselves. But it's simply not happening.
People are saying the same things over and over back and forth. I'll join a corp right now if some experienced person wants to teach 100 guys how to beat Marmite with high sec mechanics. Would Marmite show up in numbers and we'd eventually have a 1000 ship battle in high sec? No, they wouldn't show up that's not the kind of fight they are looking for. Am I being hyperbolic, yes.
If those high sec groups were able to operate a bit without getting shut down with war decs they'd soon find as others have pointed out that the margins suck and they'd need to find something better to generate ISK.
Eve is a competitive PvP sandbox game. You cannot allow the inability or unwillingness to put up a defense be an actual defensive strategy or all that will happen is established players will abuse it to hide from aggressors and do thier industry under this free safety. You have to provide for your own defense - this is intended by the game mechanics - if you want the rewards the ability to influence the greater Eve economy provides, you also have to be exposed to the actions of other players, including those that want to stop you by force.
Sure, I'd love for more new players to join experienced, socially supportive and fun highsec corporations. But part of living in New Eden is defending yourself and if a corporation cannot handle operating under a wardec, then honestly it has little future in this dystopic universe. If you do not want the responsibility of belonging to or running a corporation and just want to shoot a few NPCs or mine with friends, then stay in the NPC corp and just make a chat channel until the new societies thing comes online. You can play the game free of wardecs.
What is not the answer is to nerf wardecs in some misguided move to "save the newbies". This will do nothing to help prepare them for experiences outside of highsec and will just give veterans even more safety to do their industry in and outcompete the new players. I am sure there is room to make wardecs more engaging, but nerfing them so even more new players end up in do-nothing highsec fail corps is not going to improve the new player experience. It just means more new players will end up in corps run by clueless or downright exploitative CEOs who keep them constantly mining and who will end up quitting the game out of boredom.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
90
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:55:05 -
[1538] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Okay so people keep confusing wardec with "non consensual PVP". It is not non consensual PVP it is a change in the security status for a single corporation.
One that they did not agree to. Or, put a different way, they did not consent to. Quote:
EVE is supposed to be harsh, why make it so easy on criminals?
Because wars are not criminal activity. They are lawful activity. Also because everyone is supposed to die, and no one is supposed to be exempt. Ships getting blown up turns the wheels of the economy. Further, because wars act as a much needed isk sink. Still further, whether you like it or not, highsec PvP combat is pretty much the only thing in highsec left with such restrictions and punishments on their playstyle. Yours certainly has none, now that standings have been decoupled from station use. Thus, we are enabled to be the risk that is lacking from your otherwise easymode playstyle(s). We are what makes EVE harsh.
Its not lawful activity. According to lore, you bribe CONCORD to look the other way. It makes no sense and is really one of those CCP shenanigans to make the game easier for the vocal minority
War decs are a mechanic structured around sec status manipulation essentially it is a buff to sec status enabling lawlessness. Wars are not a needed isk sink. The idea of isk sink is pointless because isk does very little outside market interactions(There are players who rarely interact with the market).Thats why people give away billions of it for game time.
In your opinion easymode = independence. Taking that away from players will break this game. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37901
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:59:06 -
[1539] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:]He said that they go into an isolated playstyle, yes, but specifically stating missionioning and mining, mostly missioning and he use words along the lines of "the classic thempark". The problem is that most PvE isn't a group activity. People are isolated because that's the way the PvE content is designed. Incursions are an exception but they are very elitist and generally dominated by multiboxers due to their ease of farming. IMHO, they need more earlier group PvE content to encourage people to play together (and prefereably ways for PvE corps to actually exist), it shouldn't constantly be about finding new ways to encourage them to get blown up since they just aren't interested in that. This new content all seems geared towards veteran players who already interact.
Ok, I give up trying to reason. Extrapolating the data to justify something it wasn't arguing doesn't make the point stronger.
Watching it from 16:06 on, the message in that was about rich experiences, not about the weakness of PvE and nothing there discussed how improving the PvE will turn that 40% into more of the 10%. It was about moving people to rich experiences as early as possible (including existing PvE).
Here is the whole relevant part of the presentation, which was on the slide What we can do better - Rich Experiences:
https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_&t=967
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Orion Nex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 21:59:49 -
[1540] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Orion Nex wrote:I'm not calling for safety out of self-interest. At least not in the way I think you are talking about.
But I'd like for you to honest answer the question. If new players were joining corps in high sec and being introduced to the game wouldn't it be better than what you have now? If this happens currently they are guaranteed to get dec'd and they will disband 9/10.
It's one of those deals where you can want people to behave differently, but you have to do something to change it. I don't think there is anything you can do to make 100 miners band together to fight against Marmite in Hek. It sounds good, hey guys defend yourselves. But it's simply not happening.
People are saying the same things over and over back and forth. I'll join a corp right now if some experienced person wants to teach 100 guys how to beat Marmite with high sec mechanics. Would Marmite show up in numbers and we'd eventually have a 1000 ship battle in high sec? No, they wouldn't show up that's not the kind of fight they are looking for. Am I being hyperbolic, yes.
If those high sec groups were able to operate a bit without getting shut down with war decs they'd soon find as others have pointed out that the margins suck and they'd need to find something better to generate ISK.
Eve is a competitive PvP sandbox game. You cannot allow the inability or unwillingness to put up a defense be an actual defensive strategy or all that will happen is established players will abuse it to hide from aggressors and do thier industry under this free safety. You have to provide for your own defense - this is intended by the game mechanics - if you want the rewards the ability to influence the greater Eve economy provides, you also have to be exposed to the actions of other players, including those that want to stop you by force. Sure, I'd love for more new players to join experienced, socially supportive and fun highsec corporations. But part of living in New Eden is defending yourself and if a corporation cannot handle operating under a wardec, then honestly it has little future in this dystopic universe. If you do not want the responsibility of belonging to or running a corporation and just want to shoot a few NPCs or mine with friends, then stay in the NPC corp and just make a chat channel until the new societies thing comes online. You can play the game free of wardecs. What is not the answer is to nerf wardecs in some misguided move to "save the newbies". This will do nothing to help prepare them for experiences outside of highsec and will just give veterans even more safety to do their industry in and outcompete the new players. I am sure there is room to make wardecs more engaging, but nerfing them so even more new players end up in do-nothing highsec fail corps is not going to improve the new player experience. It just means more new players will end up in corps run by clueless or downright exploitative CEOs who keep them constantly mining and who will end up quitting the game out of boredom.
Lol, it's funny because if you read my posts on the Dust forums I sound just like you. I get it man. I would freakin love to be a badass solo pvp dude with a twitch stream. I am not willing to dedicate the amount of time to Eve to get anywhere close to the level of skill and knowledge of the game it takes to get there. I'm not afraid to admit that.
I think you are 100% correct about the level of fail corps would pop up, how many exploitive CEOs there would be, and on and on and on. But you know what, those people are now involved in Eve meta. If they made a few friends in their first fail corp perhaps they'd start their own venture or join a better corp together. Crappy corps are better than no corps. War decs to me kill that aspect. It would be good for Eve for there to be a 1000 pilot derp corp that grabbed up every new pilot that undocks for the first time. This type of thing is just not doable in high sec. To me that's crazy. Every game has huge groups of scrubby newbs. And many of the good players in those games probably have one of those starter derp corps in their corp/clan history.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
90
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Posted - 2015.06.08 22:03:59 -
[1541] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:
I have no idea what you are going on about. CCP Rise was talking about new players staying with the game. New players that experience combat, whether consensual or non-consensual like a gank are more likely to subscribe than players who spend the trial alone shooting rocks or levelling thier Raven.
Getting these new players out of the isolation of NPC corps and engaged with sandbox is the best path CCP sees to increase player retention. Whether that is into a PvP corp that preys on miners and industrialists with ganks and wardecs or into a highsec industrial corp that dodges these players while "exploring different avenues of Eve" is beside the point. The point is that it is player conflict which drives interactions is good for getting players, especially new players, engaged with the game. And in modern highsec, that conflict is an increasingly rare commodity.
What is demonstrably bad for the game is pandering to calls for increased safety by players out of self-interest who don't want to spend time or effort on thier defense. These "carebears" are not just confined to highsec however. They are in all spaces and deserved to be cleansed with fire (in-game of course) wherever they are found.
TBH most players who mine, mission, and leave, have figured out EVE Online. Those who were PVP'd did not get a chance to figure it out. I think the folks that joined player corps are alts or RL friends of the alliance. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6279
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:07:30 -
[1542] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:]He said that they go into an isolated playstyle, yes, but specifically stating missionioning and mining, mostly missioning and he use words along the lines of "the classic thempark". The problem is that most PvE isn't a group activity. People are isolated because that's the way the PvE content is designed. Incursions are an exception but they are very elitist and generally dominated by multiboxers due to their ease of farming. IMHO, they need more earlier group PvE content to encourage people to play together (and prefereably ways for PvE corps to actually exist), it shouldn't constantly be about finding new ways to encourage them to get blown up since they just aren't interested in that. This new content all seems geared towards veteran players who already interact. Ok, I give up trying to reason. Extrapolating the data to justify something it wasn't arguing doesn't make the point stronger. Watching it from 16:06 on, the message in that was about rich experiences, not about the weakness of PvE and nothing there discussed how improving the PvE will turn that 40% into more of the 10%. It was about moving people to rich experiences as early as possible (including existing PvE). Here is the whole relevant part of the presentation, which was on the slide What we can do better - Rich Experiences: https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?list=PLldrBIEnJ5hMIXwk_e8-VZb0EldJqXmg_&t=967 Yeah and I've seen it, both there and in person. The problem is that a lot of people try to use that as ammo against people who want more from PvE, the "carebears" if you will. they act like the 10% are people who love to run around ganking and murdering each other and the 40% are PvE carbears, and that the only way to get people to stay is to force them into murdering, which is why you get threads like this crying for the end of NPC corps. All I'm saying is that supporting those players in the playstyles they like is an alternative way of thinking. The weird thing is it sounds like you agree, so I'm really not sure what it is you're trying to reason.
As it stands, decently sized PvE corps in highsec are simply not viable. That I think is a real shame.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:07:59 -
[1543] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered. Ganking is the most boring form of PvP however. It's literally shooting fish in a barrel. It's as likely to make people quit if its the main focus of the game as making the main focus of the game pure PvE. What CCP aim for, and what is generally created, is a balance. Ganking is alright, PvE is alright. Players like Kaarous are as bad as a carebear demanding pure safety, just on the other end of the spectrum, that's all.
It is the most boring if you don't count roams or gate camping.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6279
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Posted - 2015.06.08 22:10:37 -
[1544] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered. Ganking is the most boring form of PvP however. It's literally shooting fish in a barrel. It's as likely to make people quit if its the main focus of the game as making the main focus of the game pure PvE. What CCP aim for, and what is generally created, is a balance. Ganking is alright, PvE is alright. Players like Kaarous are as bad as a carebear demanding pure safety, just on the other end of the spectrum, that's all. It is the most boring if you don't count roams or gate camping. Even those are a little better, since you at lest get a challenging fight from time to time. Ganks target people with no guns, preferably AFK too.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
90
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Posted - 2015.06.08 22:19:11 -
[1545] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Orion Nex wrote:
That's why I think ganking should be the danger in high sec. War decs would be to take over structures or something of high value.
I don't think any one thing should be "the" danger in highsec. (or just two things, either) Only one thing is only one thing to watch out for. And I don't think it should be that simple, or that restricted.
Well thats good, but you have to dig in and say what you mean. CODE works because it is within the intentions of the game design. The stuff these others are suggesting is against the established game design. If not, why is there CONCORD, Empire, gate guns, sec status, criminal timers, bounties etc... You see, these are game mechanics. These are actions that declare the game designer's intentions. If they intend something else, they should develop it into the game. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:19:23 -
[1546] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Black Pedro wrote:CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? How many of those people that state nothing? Is there even an option for that in the normal set of tickboxes, or is that something you have to pick "other" and type in. Even CCP themselves seemed to avoid making any concrete conclusions from that data.
Why don't you quit then let us know.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
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Posted - 2015.06.08 22:21:07 -
[1547] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vimsy Vortis wrote:The existence of ganking also creates subs. Was just thinking this. Yeah, a guy who dislikes PvP gets ganked...sure he might quit. But could that ganking also lead to 1 or more new subs? If so, then a larger view of things needs to be considered. Ganking is the most boring form of PvP however. It's literally shooting fish in a barrel. It's as likely to make people quit if its the main focus of the game as making the main focus of the game pure PvE. What CCP aim for, and what is generally created, is a balance. Ganking is alright, PvE is alright. Players like Kaarous are as bad as a carebear demanding pure safety, just on the other end of the spectrum, that's all. It is the most boring if you don't count roams or gate camping. Even those are a little better, since you at lest get a challenging fight from time to time. Ganks target people with no guns, preferably AFK too.
No they aren't. With ganking you will get a target with a fairly high probability. Roams and gate camps can be quite boring once you watch the nth nullified T3 go by or the kth interceptor with warp core stabs and nanos zip off.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:23:30 -
[1548] - Quote
Nevil Oscillator wrote:Black Pedro wrote:
CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game?
Yeah but if you quit because of that then you invent some other reason rather than admit it.
Oh great, so in other words we are arguing about something that is absolutely unknowable because the data can't even be trusted.
It is at this point that people like you should, literally, shut up as you have nothing of value to add to the discussion. You are the kind of person that when the data cuts against your position, you come up with a reason to discount the data you are presented with.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6279
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:25:48 -
[1549] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:No they aren't. With ganking you will get a target with a fairly high probability. Roams and gate camps can be quite boring once you watch the nth nullified T3 go by or the kth interceptor with warp core stabs and nanos zip off. I guess that really depends on if you are looking for challenging gameplay or an easy kill. Personally I'd rather have a challenge.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
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Posted - 2015.06.08 22:27:21 -
[1550] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No they aren't. With ganking you will get a target with a fairly high probability. Roams and gate camps can be quite boring once you watch the nth nullified T3 go by or the kth interceptor with warp core stabs and nanos zip off. I guess that really depends on if you are looking for challenging gameplay or an easy kill. Personally I'd rather have a challenge.
Flying through empty systems isn't a challenge, its boring.
Watching nullified ships fly by isn't fun its boring.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
90
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Posted - 2015.06.08 22:27:57 -
[1551] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Black Pedro wrote:CCP Rise said that less that a fraction of a percent of people who quit cite ship loss as the reason. How many multiples of that number were just bored out of the game? How many of those people that state nothing? Is there even an option for that in the normal set of tickboxes, or is that something you have to pick "other" and type in. Even CCP themselves seemed to avoid making any concrete conclusions from that data. Why don't you quit then let us know.
lol you'll be hard pressed to find it. It is under in-game issues, and none of the options truly address the reasons why people leave the game. Sometimes it is multiple reasons, which you can not list unless you choose other and do it manually. Others quit for one of the listed items, but can not find them due to the multiple tiers in the questionnaire. Tiericide teams should look at that btw. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6279
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:31:54 -
[1552] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No they aren't. With ganking you will get a target with a fairly high probability. Roams and gate camps can be quite boring once you watch the nth nullified T3 go by or the kth interceptor with warp core stabs and nanos zip off. I guess that really depends on if you are looking for challenging gameplay or an easy kill. Personally I'd rather have a challenge. Flying through empty systems isn't a challenge, its boring. Watching nullified ships fly by isn't fun its boring. Catching and killing a PvP fit ship or fighting with one of the many other groups that shows up is challenging PvP. Shooting an industrial ship while flying around in highsec hiding behind concord's skirt isn't.
Look mate, you've made your position clear. You aren't interested in shooting ships that can shoot back. That's OK as is any playstyle someone chooses.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37901
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:39:08 -
[1553] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Yeah and I've seen it, both there and in person. The problem is that a lot of people try to use that as ammo against people who want more from PvE, the "carebears" if you will. they act like the 10% are people who love to run around ganking and murdering each other and the 40% are PvE carbears.
Like I said, no point trying to discuss it with reason since extrapolation of data is difficult to justify (and not needed since there is a lot of direct data to support other arguments anyway).
Of the 4 things mentioned in that part of the presentation that are example activities of the 10% group, pvp was only 1 of them.
They were:
- trading with other players more often
- in corps more often
- talking in fleet chat
- on pvp kills
Only the last of those are exclusive to pvp. All of the others can be PvE just as easily.
In the forum, CCP Rise has also added other non-pvp activities that are indicative of people having rich experiences - using contracts, using chat channels, using voice comms (and I'll go look up the others he has said).
So using the data to move from:
50% stick with the game ( here )
to
10% stick with the game and the rest come for PvE, so improve PvE and more will stay ( here )
to
Other people use it as ammo in the forum ( here )
Makes it impossible to hold a reasoned conversation.
CCP Rise was discussing rich experiences, not the failings of PvE, nor the advantages of PvP. He used both as examples relevant to rich experiences in that presentation.
Providing improved PvE might well encourage more people to stay, but that data doesn't support that conclusion. Clearly CCP believe from the data that rich experiences are more important and the lessons they have learnt from the data (same presentation) are:
1. Text - improving the UI of the NPE to more contextual information and less linear text and clicking
2. Motivation - removing the reward based system of the NPE so that players become more self directed from the start
3. Expectation - removing the themepark aspect of the NPE so that new players find emergent, unpredictable, interactive experiences
4. Rich Experiences - encouraging meaningful experiences within the NPE as much as possible
5. Upkeep - making the entire NPE easier to modify and maintain from the developer perspective so it can be kept relevant
There was nothing in that presentation that justifies "PvE is bad", nor "Improve PvE and more people will stay".
Those are straight perversions of the information that was provided and discussed.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
90
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 22:52:12 -
[1554] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Like I said, no point trying to discuss it with reason since extrapolation of data is difficult to justify (and not needed since there is a lot of direct data to support other arguments anyway). Of the 4 things mentioned in that part of the presentation that are example activities of the 10% group, pvp was only 1 of them. They were: - trading with other players more often - in corps more often - talking in fleet chat - on pvp kills Only the last of those are exclusive to pvp. All of the others can be PvE just as easily. In the forum, CCP Rise has also added other non-pvp activities that are indicative of people having rich experiences - using contracts, using chat channels, using voice comms (and I'll go look up the others he has said). So using the data to move from: 50% stick with the game ( here ) to 10% stick with the game and the rest come for PvE, so improve PvE and more will stay ( here ) to Other people use it as ammo in the forum ( here ) Makes it impossible to hold a reasoned conversation. CCP Rise was discussing rich experiences, not the failings of PvE, nor the advantages of PvP. He used both as examples relevant to rich experiences in that presentation. Providing improved PvE might well encourage more people to stay, but that data doesn't support that conclusion. Clearly CCP believe from the data that rich experiences are more important and the lessons they have learnt from the data (same presentation) are: 1. Text - improving the UI of the NPE to more contextual information and less linear text and clicking 2. Motivation - removing the reward based system of the NPE so that players become more self directed from the start 3. Expectation - removing the themepark aspect of the NPE so that new players find emergent, unpredictable, interactive experiences 4. Rich Experiences - encouraging meaningful experiences within the NPE as much as possible 5. Upkeep - making the entire NPE easier to modify and maintain from the developer perspective so it can be kept relevant There was nothing in that presentation that justifies " PvE is bad", nor " Improve PvE and more people will stay". Those are straight perversions of the information that was provided and discussed.
It doesn't matter the data is flawed in the first place due to multiple accounts per player. And, how does he know who is on fleet chat?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37901
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:00:14 -
[1555] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:It doesn't matter the data is flawed in the first place due to multiple accounts per player. And, how does he know who is on fleet chat?
There is a chat channel for every fleet available when you join one. It automatically opens when you accept a fleet invitation. The messages you type in fleet chat are also relayed to the server (so they can be sent to everyone else too).
CCP clearly are able to track who types in fleet chat (to what extent they do, we don't know).
Why is the data flawed?
Where for example is this wrong, for subscribed players:
10% stick with the game long term
40% move into solo/mission play out of the NPE and many leave
50% leave within a month or so
Also the data from this year, looking at 80,000 unique new players (not alts), how is that not valid in the context that it was presented?
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
207
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Posted - 2015.06.08 23:04:40 -
[1556] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Even those are a little better, since you at lest get a challenging fight from time to time. Ganks target people with no guns, preferably AFK too. No they aren't. With ganking you will get a target with a fairly high probability. Roams and gate camps can be quite boring once you watch the nth nullified T3 go by or the kth interceptor with warp core stabs and nanos zip off.
Well, running security missions guarantees you plenty of targets too - ones that even shoot back - but they're dreadfully boring, IMO. To be honest I've never suicide ganked anybody, but it just sounds dull to me...
I do agree with you about gate camps - very boring indeed.
However, the CAS PvP SIG manages to get an average of 653 kills per month. Mostly in Syndicate, with a few dips into lowsec from time to time, from a group that rarely has more than 20 involved in any one fight (except for our occasional everybody's-welcome, large events.) Pewpew really isn't that difficult to find if you're in the right place.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6280
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:06:49 -
[1557] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:So using the data to move from: 50% stick with the game ( here ) to 10% stick with the game and the rest come for PvE, so improve PvE and more will stay ( here ) to Other people use it as ammo in the forum ( here ) That's because you misunderstand this. When I say 50% stick with the game, I mean for long enough to show an interet in it. The first 50% leave, those players I would consider to be unreachable, they are players with no interst in the game. The other 50% stay in the game for an indeterminate amount of time. He states than of that last 50%, one fifth goes to social play and most of those tend to stay. He also states that the other four fifths move into classic themepark and that many of them leave. We know not all of them leave, because we see them in game. That four fifths obviously have some interest in the game or they would leave right away, so take what they are interested in and make it more soical and more diverse. That's what I'm saying. If you can't hold a reasonable conversation about that, then that if your failing.
And yes, people take those stats as provided by Rise and they claim that to mean that players who don't leap into ganking or players who support PvE playstyles are bad for the game. You only have to read Kaarous' posts to see countless examples of that, but there are many others who have claimed exactly the same.
Scipio Artelius wrote:Clearly CCP believe from the data that rich experiences are more important and the lessons they have learnt from the data (same presentation) are:
1. Text - improving the UI of the NPE to more contextual information and less linear text and clicking
2. Motivation - removing the reward based system of the NPE so that players become more self directed from the start
3. Expectation - removing the themepark aspect of the NPE so that new players find emergent, unpredictable, interactive experiences
4. Rich Experiences - encouraging meaningful experiences within the NPE as much as possible
5. Upkeep - making the entire NPE easier to modify and maintain from the developer perspective so it can be kept relevant Have you used the NPE? All it does it give you pop up achievements whenever you do stuff and yet another list of things you may want to do. It's not a rich experience in itself and still requires a player to find their own content, and that's the problem, they don't.
Scipio Artelius wrote:There was nothing in that presentation that justifies "PvE is bad", nor "Improve PvE and more people will stay". No, but there's a clear idea of what type of gameplay people are looking for when they stumble into solo gameplay. They are looking for classic "level my raven" gameplay. Adding a bunch of achievements for rotating your camera and locking an asteroid won't suddenly make people social, and neither will adding content dominated by veteran players like NPC battleships that can oneshot capitals. IMHO changing the themepark PVE so it in itself leads to a diverse and social experience would be a far better way to steer people who are looking for that when they arrive.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37901
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:09:42 -
[1558] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Have you used the NPE? All it does it give you pop up achievements whenever you do stuff and yet another list of things you may want to do. It's not a rich experience in itself and still requires a player to find their own content, and that's the problem, they don't.
No. I never joined the game.
As to the NPE not being a rich experience, that was one of the major points CCP Rise made. The others being those other 4 that they can improve on.
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:There was nothing in that presentation that justifies "PvE is bad", nor "Improve PvE and more people will stay". No, but there's a clear idea of what type of gameplay people are looking for when they stumble into solo gameplay.
Not from that data there isn't.
The only correlation made in that section of the presentation is that CCP realise people move in that direction because the NPE pushes them that way.
No data or statement is available as to what people are actually looking for. That data suggests, not what people are looking for, but the type of experience (rich experiences) that are known to help keep people around.
In the earlier part (about expectations) there is a discussion of people coming to the game after peak events (eg. B-R5RB and other major news headlines) and then finding something totally different.
But I don't think CCP necessarily know why people come and join Eve. If I had to guess, I'd say there are many, many reasons and a lot of variety around that. But that's speculation and not something I would bet on.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
90
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:14:18 -
[1559] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:It doesn't matter the data is flawed in the first place due to multiple accounts per player. And, how does he know who is on fleet chat? There is a chat channel for every fleet available when you join one. It automatically opens when you accept a fleet invitation. The messages you type in fleet chat are also relayed to the server (so they can be sent to everyone else too). CCP clearly are able to track who types in fleet chat (to what extent they do, we don't know). Why is the data flawed? Where for example is this wrong, for subscribed players: 10% stick with the game long term 40% move into solo/mission play out of the NPE and many leave 50% leave within a month or so Also the data from this year, looking at 80,000 unique new players (not alts), how is that not valid in the context that it was presented?
Multiple accounts can be in the same fleet. How does CCP know they are 80,000 unique new players?
Sub /= new player
new character /= new player
TS3/mumble are more used by alliances than fleet chat. |
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
752
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:18:17 -
[1560] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:As it stands, decently sized PvE corps in highsec are simply not viable. That I think is a real shame.
More importantly they have no reason to attempt to be viable. When a decent and skilled PVE corp forms in highsec they leave highsec. They have little incentive to stay. If they are going to be wardecced by various PVP groups they are better off moving to a WH or deep null where they get higher rewards for putting themselves at risk for openly flagged combat.
I can't help but laugh when I see these kinds of mid sized mission running corps trying to deal with wardecs. It's always such a disaster. It's a kind of litmus test for the quality of the CEO.
Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No they aren't. With ganking you will get a target with a fairly high probability. Roams and gate camps can be quite boring once you watch the nth nullified T3 go by or the kth interceptor with warp core stabs and nanos zip off. I guess that really depends on if you are looking for challenging gameplay or an easy kill. Personally I'd rather have a challenge. Flying through empty systems isn't a challenge, its boring. Watching nullified ships fly by isn't fun its boring.
There is only so much potential enjoyment that can be reaped from a given activity. The potential enjoyment from highsec suicide ganking is just not very high for many players. It's gold if you're into metagaming/roleplaying/trolling but not so much if you aren't.
It can take awhile to find content on a roam but EVE is not for the impatient. Personally I'd rather wait 1 hour for 1 dose of highly enjoyable content then suicide gank a handful of AFK barges.
There are all our dominion
Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37901
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:23:01 -
[1561] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Multiple accounts can be in the same fleet. How does CCP know they are 80,000 unique new players?
Sub /= new player
new character /= new player
Go look at the presentation from this years FanFest by CCP Rise. He states that the data set he uses in that presentation (may not be the same as the data he used for the 2014 presentation) is 80,000 unique players.
If the basis of our discussion is that we believe CCP are either lying or don't know how to isolate unique users; but yet still say that is what the data was for, then we are totally up **** creek without a paddle.
Without individually going and varifying the actual data ourselves (and none of us have the resources to do so), then there is an element of trust that we have to place in the information that CCP provide and the statements they make.
If they are just fabricating everything, then nothing any of us say has any meaning if it relies on those statements.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6280
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:30:55 -
[1562] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:No. I never joined the game.
As to the NPE not being a rich experience, that was one of the major points CCP Rise made. The others being those other 4 that they can improve on. I mean the new NPE. and yes, he made that point, so they changed it, and it's still doing the exact same thing because it's not possible to force players to throw themselves into group content if that's not what they come for.
Scipio Artelius wrote:Not from that data there isn't.
The only correlation made in that section of the presentation is that CCP realise people move in that direction because the NPE pushes them that way. Of course there is! HE states what the majority of that 40% do. I don;t expect people show up, sub, then stay a few months missioning and what they were really looking for is shooting people in wormholes. They arrive expecting to be able to play some classic MMO gameplay with some "quests" and whatnot, and what they get is 30 or so missions that never ever ever change.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37901
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:38:47 -
[1563] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:No. I never joined the game.
As to the NPE not being a rich experience, that was one of the major points CCP Rise made. The others being those other 4 that they can improve on. I mean the new NPE. and yes, he made that point, so they changed it, and it's still doing the exact same thing because it's not possible to force players to throw themselves into group content if that's not what they come for.
We haven't seen any results, nor do we understand what timeframe CCP are expecting/hoping for change to occur.
Overnight turnaround is not going to happen, so whether it is a success or failure, we don't know yet.
CCP are not trying to force anyone to do anything and as the example of CCP Veritas shows, many players are perfectly happy with solo play and will be retained in the long term.
It's just not the norm and so many players leave, having never discovered the rich experience that will keep them around. That's what CCP is trying to change.
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Not from that data there isn't.
The only correlation made in that section of the presentation is that CCP realise people move in that direction because the NPE pushes them that way. Of course there is! HE states what the majority of that 40% do. I don;t expect people show up, sub, then stay a few months missioning and what they were really looking for is shooting people in wormholes. They arrive expecting to be able to play some classic MMO gameplay with some "quests" and whatnot, and what they get is 30 or so missions that never ever ever change.
Yes he states what they are doing, but not why (which was the extrapolation of the data made and the data was used to justify that conclusion).
It can be an opinion, no problem. But it can't be justified with that information.
The only thing that indicated a why was that CCP know the old NPE pushed players in that direction.
It's not a valid conclusion from that presentation to say that those plays came looking for that style of play.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6280
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:53:40 -
[1564] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:It can be an opinion, no problem. But it can't be justified with that information. Of course it can. You may still wish not to believe it but that doesn't mean I can't cite that data as my reasoning. I'd find it very odd if 40% of new subs were doing PvE against their will.
Scipio Artelius wrote:It's perfectly fine to have the opinion that people "arrive expecting to be able to play some classic MMO gameplay with some "quests" and whatnot", but you'd need to provide your own data to support that. Nothing CCP have said can be used to add weight to that argument. Except if you look at their data and see what they arrive doing, then you look at the wider MMO community for what people do in other games and what people expect in an MMO, it's not a big jump to suggest that what they are arriving for is space-based questing. I'll continue to believe that until I see compelling evidence suggesting otherwise.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
|
Posted - 2015.06.08 23:58:24 -
[1565] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No they aren't. With ganking you will get a target with a fairly high probability. Roams and gate camps can be quite boring once you watch the nth nullified T3 go by or the kth interceptor with warp core stabs and nanos zip off. I guess that really depends on if you are looking for challenging gameplay or an easy kill. Personally I'd rather have a challenge. Flying through empty systems isn't a challenge, its boring. Watching nullified ships fly by isn't fun its boring. Catching and killing a PvP fit ship or fighting with one of the many other groups that shows up is challenging PvP. Shooting an industrial ship while flying around in highsec hiding behind concord's skirt isn't. Look mate, you've made your position clear. You aren't interested in shooting ships that can shoot back. That's OK as is any playstyle someone chooses.
Ahhh there is the arrogant and self-aggrandizing Lucas we've all come to love and know. Also, and excellent example of your inability to comprehend the written medium. I did not say that ganking is my preferred activity in Eve, nor did anything I write indicate that ganking is not boringGǪfor some.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37902
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 00:03:46 -
[1566] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:It can be an opinion, no problem. But it can't be justified with that information. Of course it can. You may still wish not to believe it but that doesn't mean I can't cite that data as my reasoning. I'd find it very odd if 40% of new subs were doing PvE against their will.
You can try to cite the data as reasoning. It just isn't valid and never will be on the basis of that data.
There may be other data, but you are just fabricating conclusions out of the statements CCP Rise made.
No matter how you want to look at it, fabricating conclusions by extrapolating the data is a very weak argument.
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:It's perfectly fine to have the opinion that people "arrive expecting to be able to play some classic MMO gameplay with some "quests" and whatnot", but you'd need to provide your own data to support that. Nothing CCP have said can be used to add weight to that argument. Except if you look at their data and see what they arrive doing, then you look at the wider MMO community for what people do in other games and what people expect in an MMO, it's not a big jump to suggest that what they are arriving for is space-based questing. I'll continue to believe that until I see compelling evidence suggesting otherwise.
This is another shift.
No longer this data, but also now the wider MMO community.
So if you are looking at the wider MMO community, put the data here so anyone can also see it and see clearly how it relates to Eve.
Otherwise, it's just hot air with lots of volume, but no substance.
Opinion, which is perfectly fine. Just not supported by this data.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6280
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 00:13:44 -
[1567] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:You can try to cite the data as reasoning. It just isn't valid and never will be on the basis of that data. That is indeed your opinion. Ours seem to differ.
Scipio Artelius wrote:No matter how you want to look at it, fabricating conclusions by extrapolating the data is a very weak argument. I'm not. I have a hypothesis, this is the only data available, and the data could support it. Nobody can say for sure if it does or doesn't, but it's a viable assessment. I still think it's far less likely that 40% of players stumble by accident into a type of gameplay they weren't aiming to get in there and stay longer than the 50% "leave after a couple of months" crowd, and far more likely that layers used to other types of game come here seeking similar gameplay in a different style. You seem to be of the impression that I need reams of data to be allowed my pinion, while you can categorically declare mine as wrong without any evidence of your own. Funny that.
Lucas Kell wrote:This is another shift.
No longer this data, but also now the wider MMO community.
So if you are looking at the wider MMO community, put the data here so anyone can also see it and see clearly how it relates to Eve..
Clearly you are going to argue literally everything. Obviously you are right. Players come here seeking diverse and engaging social content, fall into PvE by accident, which happens to be very similar in style to other far more popular MMOs. They then stay trapped in that paying for a sub they don't actually want until they eventually leave.
Lol. You were right earlier, it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you over this, so I'm ending it.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 00:18:57 -
[1568] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:It doesn't matter the data is flawed in the first place due to multiple accounts per player. And, how does he know who is on fleet chat? There is a chat channel for every fleet available when you join one. It automatically opens when you accept a fleet invitation. The messages you type in fleet chat are also relayed to the server (so they can be sent to everyone else too). CCP clearly are able to track who types in fleet chat (to what extent they do, we don't know). Why is the data flawed? Where for example is this wrong, for subscribed players: 10% stick with the game long term 40% move into solo/mission play out of the NPE and many leave 50% leave within a month or so Also the data from this year, looking at 80,000 unique new players (not alts), how is that not valid in the context that it was presented?
You know I love these flawed data arguments. Is multiple accounts muddying things up? Maybe, but CCP can do somethings to clean the data. For example, look at the credit card that is paying for the account (if there is one). If it is the same across multiple accounts then they are likely alt accounts. You can flag those appropriately for later removal or include it as a variable in your analysis. You could also use other means of trying to identify when a character is likely an alt vs. a new player.
Also, when I make a fleet with my alts I tend not tooGǪchat with myself in fleet chat. That is particularly odd, but hey if chatting with yourself works for youGǪwell I do not judge. So, you could subset out those fleets where NOBODY talks.
And lastly, even the data isnGÇÖt perfect it can still be helpful. This attitude of well, this one minor thing could totally change the results is just errant nonsense. Yes, it could change the results, but at the same time it may not. It depends on how diligent CCP was at checking and cleaning their data. And even then, while it could change the results it is not a forgone conclusion.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2991
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 00:28:54 -
[1569] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Without individually going and verifying the actual data ourselves (and none of us have the resources to do so), then there is an element of trust that we have to place in the information that CCP provide and the statements they make.
Actually I have the resources to do it...just not the data.
And I bet I'm not the only one who has access to lots of computing power.
But I get what you are saying. We either go with this data being TruthGäó or we just stop talking about it completely.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25457
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Posted - 2015.06.09 00:29:17 -
[1570] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Maybe because they don't want to? Contrary to popular belief, there's a lot more to do in EVE than shoot people, and there are groups who want to exist to do something that isn't pew pew. If the answer is "learn to shoot people", that's effectively writing off players corps as only for people who want to shoot other people, which is pretty much an exaggeration of the problem there is now.
Lucas, your argument depends on mixing the idea that (1) people want to do different things, with (2) people want to be combat free. (1) and (2) are not related at all. People are free to do all kinds of things in EVE, and not a single person is debating their right to do so, even though you keep bringing it up as if people are against Explorers or Miners. No one is arguing that career choice.
What is objectionable is the expectation that you should be completely safe while you are Mining or Exploring or Hauling. People don't have to learn how to PVP at all, but at the very least they have to learn how to not be targets. You are absolving people of that responsibility by appealing to a "think of the kids" reasoning - how weak and incapable these people are, like helpless children. Is this characterization actually true? Are you advocating for coddling?
We would only hold on to let go
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
25457
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Posted - 2015.06.09 00:36:42 -
[1571] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:All I know is that every time I've settled into a group it's been destroyed by high sec war decs. I have no idea what the answer is. I've rarely posted on the forums and it hasn't gone well when I've decided to.
I like your post, but I will point out one thing which I believe is a fallacy. There is no expectation that 100% of corps out there will succeed. I don't see why it's a problem if 90% of the poorly run and poorly defended corps are destroyed by better organized and better armed ones. The non consensual PVP sandbox is a dog eat dog universe.
Does the dial on attackers vs. defenders need to be adjusted? I can be convinced of that, if someone can provide me some statistically backed argument as to why this is necessary. (Yes Lucas, I do see your wardec statistics, but I think the numbers are contrived).
Quote:I think the trolls that war dec high sec corps are similar to people in Dust that create alts to crush noobs in the Academy (a 3 or 4 match beginner mode for new players). It serves no good purpose.
This is a value judgment on your part.. made no less as part of the losing side of a conflict. I don't think this is an objective view. People do stuff in games for various reasons, and within the bounds of the EULA all of those reasons are equally as sound. Being noble, or a great tactician like Robert E Lee instead of like Ulysses Grant.. these are all personal values, not universal ones.
I agree with you, Wardecs need to be reimagined.. but not for reasons of rookie lambs dying to some imaginary slaughter, or because players should be safe anywhere in space (they shouldn't be).
We would only hold on to let go
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37914
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 01:52:13 -
[1572] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Actually I have the resources to do it...just not the data. And I bet I'm not the only one who has access to lots of computing power. But I get what you are saying. We either go with this data being TruthGäó or we just stop talking about it completely.
Yeah ok. When I said none of us have the capability, we are a big community and there are likely to be some that can.
According to CCP Quant, the CCP SQL database sits at about 2.5TB in active user state and they regularly archive data from it, giving an archive of about 3TB of user data. They collect about 300 million logs lines per day, they hold about 50GB of uncompressed logs data and 25 TB of compressed data at about 8:1 compression:
https://youtu.be/h-jfvjMoe9Y?list=PLQvKSs1k6DLOiGGb44McruXcndTtzUUlu&t=253
That's beyond most of us and it would be great if CCP made it available. I'm not sure how they would do so without shutting TQ down in the process if several of us started polling it.
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Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2015.06.09 02:00:08 -
[1573] - Quote
Looks like a lot of you guys are getting better at actually understanding others' positions and some of your own shortcomings in your arguments, however grudging it is to acknowledge. I still hate you though. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37914
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 02:01:33 -
[1574] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:You can try to cite the data as reasoning. It just isn't valid and never will be on the basis of that data. That is indeed your opinion. Ours seem to differ.
No. Not my opinion. Fact.
Both in science and logic.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37915
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 02:15:13 -
[1575] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Clearly you are going to argue literally everything. Obviously you are right. Players come here seeking diverse and engaging social content, fall into PvE by accident, which happens to be very similar in style to other far more popular MMOs. They then stay trapped in that paying for a sub they don't actually want until they eventually leave.
No, I only argue where the evidence supports that argument.
I don't know why the majority of players fall into PvE personally. It's not what I do and I haven't asked others myself. They may well come to Eve for the PvE (and not surprisingly be very disappointed). There's just not the data in that presentation to support that view.
CCP seem to think it has more to do with rich experiences over isolated play and they've drawn that conclusion from the data they've analysed.
Whether it is PvE or PvP, it all has the potential to be a rich experience, since the experience is not about the actual task in a lot of cases, but about interaction, in CCPs conclusion.
I recently ran my first incursion sites in nullsec and being in a fleet for PvE was just as engaging as being in a fleet for PvP. The shooting of red crosses was dull, but the F1 isn't what makes a fleet engaging for me either. It's the group activity involved in it. It's the same when I run combat sites. It's not only quicker (which is a blessing), but also more engaging to run the sites with other people. But that's just me. I don't expect that is necessarily representative of everybody and it's clearly not what some people want. Each to their own. So it's difficult to extrapolate limited sets, or unrelated sets into some other purpose. The arguments are just not very strong.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11290
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 02:32:10 -
[1576] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas, it might be worth going back and listening to CCP Rise in that 2014 presentation again.
From those stats, the 40% that go into solo play missioning/mining, which the old tutorial system led them towards, also tended not to stay with the game for very long.
So there was the 50% that left within a month or so, 40% that tended not to stay very long and 10% that end up as long term retained players. Yeah, that's my point. People are always saying "how can we turn that 40% into more for the 10%". What I'm saying is "what did that 40% want to do that can be improved so they stay on their own terms". To me they came in wanting a diverse PvE experience, and they got the barely passable red crosses and rocks that is EVE PvE. Make EVE PvE more varied and group friendly and they will get what they came for and likely stay longer. Say for example you run a soup shop, and you sell an amazing chicken soup. You also sell a tomato soup from a tin. 50% of your walk ins don;t fancy soup and leave. 40% come in for tomato soup, but don;t come back because it's terrible. 10% come for the chicken soup and love it, returning every day. Why try to find ways to make the 40% love chicken soup when you could simply make your tomato soup better? You've already done the hard part of getting them in the store, Now you just need to help them enjoy what they came in for. Does that not make sense?
You analogy is wrong (as usual) It isn't different types of soup. EVE is a Steak House. The 40% are vegans. Sure you can try to add stuff they will like, but they will still be ticked off at all the meat eating going on, the meat eaters are going to be ticked off at all the complaining tofu eating slipper wearing hippes in their steak house and no one is happy.
EVE has SANDBOX PVE. It appeals to Sandbox PVErs (people like me) who like 'engineering challenges', unlike Themepark PVErs who 'want to be told a story, interact with that story and have that story confirm that they are 'special'. Like the rest of EVE, PVE in this game isn't for everyone and that's ok. CCp has tried the whole "broaden the game, be inclusive" crap and it failed. No more of that I say.
The other thing is CCP. CCP is HORRIBLE at creating content. When they have tried to do themepark like features (cough incursions cough epic arc missions) all they ended up doing was creating more boring farming content that was beaten within a week. When they create sandbox PVE (Burner missions, the perfect engineering challenge that they KNOW is going to be 'gamed' so the create them with that in mind) they do much better.
You're like those incarna people , CCP has proven time and time again that they aren't good at certain things, and actually good at others, yet folks like you think it's a good idea for CCP to bang it's head on brick wall and kep walking the road of fail. Screw that, CCP needs to work to it's strengths. Sandbox. Spaceships. And that's all.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
91
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Posted - 2015.06.09 05:26:50 -
[1577] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas, it might be worth going back and listening to CCP Rise in that 2014 presentation again.
From those stats, the 40% that go into solo play missioning/mining, which the old tutorial system led them towards, also tended not to stay with the game for very long.
So there was the 50% that left within a month or so, 40% that tended not to stay very long and 10% that end up as long term retained players. Yeah, that's my point. People are always saying "how can we turn that 40% into more for the 10%". What I'm saying is "what did that 40% want to do that can be improved so they stay on their own terms". To me they came in wanting a diverse PvE experience, and they got the barely passable red crosses and rocks that is EVE PvE. Make EVE PvE more varied and group friendly and they will get what they came for and likely stay longer. Say for example you run a soup shop, and you sell an amazing chicken soup. You also sell a tomato soup from a tin. 50% of your walk ins don;t fancy soup and leave. 40% come in for tomato soup, but don;t come back because it's terrible. 10% come for the chicken soup and love it, returning every day. Why try to find ways to make the 40% love chicken soup when you could simply make your tomato soup better? You've already done the hard part of getting them in the store, Now you just need to help them enjoy what they came in for. Does that not make sense? You analogy is wrong (as usual) It isn't different types of soup. EVE is a Steak House. The 40% are vegans. Sure you can try to add stuff they will like, but they will still be ticked off at all the meat eating going on, the meat eaters are going to be ticked off at all the complaining tofu eating slipper wearing hippes in their steak house and no one is happy. EVE has SANDBOX PVE. It appeals to Sandbox PVErs (people like me) who like 'engineering challenges', unlike Themepark PVErs who 'want to be told a story, interact with that story and have that story confirm that they are 'special'. Like the rest of EVE, PVE in this game isn't for everyone and that's ok. CCp has tried the whole "broaden the game, be inclusive" crap and it failed. No more of that I say. The other thing is CCP. CCP is HORRIBLE at creating content. When they have tried to do themepark like features (cough incursions cough epic arc missions) all they ended up doing was creating more boring farming content that was beaten within a week. When they create sandbox PVE (Burner missions, the perfect engineering challenge that they KNOW is going to be 'gamed' so the create them with that in mind) they do much better. You're like those incarna people , CCP has proven time and time again that they aren't good at certain things, and actually good at others, yet folks like you think it's a good idea for CCP to bang it's head on brick wall and kep walking the road of fail. Screw that, CCP needs to work to it's strengths. Sandbox. Spaceships. And that's all.
Lucas analogy is more accurate and fine. CCP offers many different things in EVE, and all players are welcome to enjoy the parts they do(after all, they pay the same as everyone else). You acknowledge that CCP needs to improve on content, and they should, like Lucas suggested. It is the difference between sandbox and litter box. You want a litter box, other players want a beach sand box. Don't bring up Incarna like you understand what that was about. |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6280
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 06:45:47 -
[1578] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Maybe because they don't want to? Contrary to popular belief, there's a lot more to do in EVE than shoot people, and there are groups who want to exist to do something that isn't pew pew. If the answer is "learn to shoot people", that's effectively writing off players corps as only for people who want to shoot other people, which is pretty much an exaggeration of the problem there is now. Lucas, your argument depends on mixing the idea that (1) people want to do different things, with (2) people want to be combat free. (1) and (2) are not related at all. People are free to do all kinds of things in EVE, and not a single person is debating their right to do so, even though you keep bringing it up as if people are against Explorers or Miners. No one is arguing that career choice. What is objectionable is the expectation that you should be completely safe while you are Mining or Exploring or Hauling. People don't have to learn how to PVP at all, but at the very least they have to learn how to not be targets. You are absolving people of that responsibility by appealing to a "think of the kids" reasoning - how weak and incapable these people are, like helpless children. Is this characterization actually true? Are you advocating for coddling? Nobdy (at least nobody relevant) is here demanding complete safety while mining. What people like myself atre advocating is the continuation of the current mechanics where certain types of risk are able to be avoided. It's no secret that I think the wardecs system is a pile of crap, and I don't think people should be forced out of NPC corps and into the firing line for that mechanic just so a bunch of whiners can have more easy targets. That's not what EVE is about.
The thing is, these people already know how to not be targets. One of the ways to reduce that is being in a NPC corp. You don't like that though and want them punished for making that choice and forced to be targets of veteran "merc groups" (I use that term very loosely). At the end of the day, this is a game. If you come here to shoot red crosses, you shouldn't be 100% safe, which right now your already aren't. What you shouldn't have though is to spend 99% of your time dodging people and hiding in stations rather than playing the game the way you find it entertaining. If people want to hide our in NPC corps to reduce the number of people they are targets for in the first place, good for them.
On a final note, removal of NPC corps would only cause people to create thousands of 1 man corps in an effort to remain less of a target, further reducing their social contact and increasing the likelihood they stop playing. No thanks. When the wardec mechancis stop making it most rewarding to go after the weakest targets, maybe this can be looked at again. Until then I'll support remaining as is and looking for better ways to people to socialise regardless of affiliation.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
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Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6280
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 06:50:37 -
[1579] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Does the dial on attackers vs. defenders need to be adjusted? I can be convinced of that, if someone can provide me some statistically backed argument as to why this is necessary. (Yes Lucas, I do see your wardec statistics, but I think the numbers are contrived). I've given you the tools you need to look at the data, so why don't you do your own analysis if mine is so flawed.
I believe the way I pulled the data was the fairest. ISK killed as a winning metric and eliminating wars with zero activity. In a balanced system I'd expect to see a roughly 50/50 split with that much data. It wasn't even close (90/10).
Do you at agree with my suggestion that wardec mechanic as they currently stand encourage players to go after the easier targets, the ones with lots of juicy ships and little combat ability rather than picking a fight with a group ready and willing to fight back in highsec?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1871
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 06:56:39 -
[1580] - Quote
My god.
That horse.
What have you done?
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6280
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 07:00:13 -
[1581] - Quote
Hey man, I didn't kill it. I just found it here.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
272
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 08:15:30 -
[1582] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
What is objectionable is the expectation that you should be completely safe while you are Mining or Exploring or Hauling. People don't have to learn how to PVP at all, but at the very least they have to learn how to not be targets. You are absolving people of that responsibility by appealing to a "think of the kids" reasoning - how weak and incapable these people are, like helpless children. Is this characterization actually true? Are you advocating for coddling?
coddling is already happening, there isn't a player in this thread right now who hasn't helped someone who needs to be coddled to some degree.
it's all about comfort zones,, even battle hardened PVPers have a comfort zone, you take them out of it and it's not long before they kick up, we've all been in a fleet where the FC died and not one person was willing to step up and take command, surely these tuff battlehardened vets are not scared are they? nope,, not at all,, just being expected to step out of their comfort zone.
there is no reason why a miner/hauler shouldn't expect this comfort zone to be provided when they join a corp, in most cases it's just not provided so they end up on the fourms whining about it and calling for a nerf of somekind.
advocating for coddling? lol come on,,, it's already in the game and you can bet it's the cause of most not getting the hell out of that comfort zone sooner.
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Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services
CAStabouts
250
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Posted - 2015.06.09 09:24:14 -
[1583] - Quote
This thread still?
Why do people stay in NPC corps? Caiuse this is Eve, and in Eve, trolling your angst is PvP for some people.
Omar Alharazaad wrote:My god. That horse. What have you done?
Don't ask... |
Valkin Mordirc
1104
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 09:30:03 -
[1584] - Quote
Omar Alharazaad wrote:My god. That horse. What have you done?
I said the same thing about 30 pages back.
It's not a horse.
It's a glue bottle.
#DeleteTheWeak
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Omar Alharazaad
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
1875
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 09:34:52 -
[1585] - Quote
Valkin Mordirc wrote:Omar Alharazaad wrote:My god. That horse. What have you done? I said the same thing about 30 pages back. It's not a horse. It's a glue bottle.
Oh well, at least I'll have something to sniff to help make all of this oooookaayy.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Lucy Lopez
Low Frequency
41
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Posted - 2015.06.09 10:16:59 -
[1586] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:This thread still?
Why do people stay in NPC corps? Caiuse this is Eve, and in Eve, trolling your angst is PvP for some people
Indeed. I often see people talking about 'delicious tears' etc, but from what I can see in these threads the most delicious of them all are those which flow so profusely from the eyes of self-styled tear extractors. |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1088
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 11:13:35 -
[1587] - Quote
Orion Nex wrote:I think you are 100% correct about the level of fail corps would pop up, how many exploitive CEOs there would be, and on and on and on. But you know what, those people are now involved in Eve meta. If they made a few friends in their first fail corp perhaps they'd start their own venture or join a better corp together. Crappy corps are better than no corps. War decs to me kill that aspect. It would be good for Eve for there to be a 1000 pilot derp corp that grabbed up every new pilot that undocks for the first time. This type of thing is just not doable in high sec. To me that's crazy. Every game has huge groups of scrubby newbs. And many of the good players in those games probably have one of those starter derp corps in their corp/clan history.
A crappy corp may be better than no corp, but from a new player perspective they are still terrible. Eve deserves to be shown to new players at its best, and that is not grinding away in highsec for a CEO taxing 50% of your income and giving you nothing in return. I have no problem with veteran players deciding to hang out in a do-everything/do-nothing corp in highsec, or realizing that the NPC corp is a better place for them as they have figured out what they like and are indeed subscribing, but new players deserve better or many of them will quit.
Wardecs weed out these fail corps just like highsec-awoxing used to. The solution isn't to continue to turn player corps into de facto invulnerable NPC corps by nerfing wardecs, but rather to buff player corps to make them desirable and worth being in so players want to defend them. This would foster conflict and engagement with the game. Are there some tweaks that could make wardecs less lopsided? I am sure there are, but the game is specifically designed so that players and corps will be routinely destroyed. It is not a bad thing that every corp does not make it and so wardecs should not be neutered to try to make every corp succeed "for the newbies". A corporation is something players should rally around and fight for in pursuit of a common goal and having meaning and value, not just be a glorified chat channel.
As for your assertion that 1000 pilot new corp is "not possible" this is exactly what Brave (AKA Brave Newbies Inc) did. They focused on grabbing a bunch of new players and set out to make a name for their corporation with little experience and low SP characters. This is completely possible under the current wardec mechanic. Further there are hundreds of smaller, high-quality highsec corporations that deal with wardecs and thrive everyday. Just because everyone does not succeed does not mean it is not possible.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 12:16:49 -
[1588] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Clearly you are going to argue literally everything. Obviously you are right. Players come here seeking diverse and engaging social content, fall into PvE by accident, which happens to be very similar in style to other far more popular MMOs. They then stay trapped in that paying for a sub they don't actually want until they eventually leave. No, I only argue where the evidence supports that argument. I don't know why the majority of players fall into PvE personally . . .
Then stop arguing it.
You are putting on a spectacular demonstration of the difference between a logical argument and a reasonable one.
People play MMORPGs for ::reasons::
EVE is an MMORPG.
People play EVE for ::reasons::
Sure, you could speculate that EVE is x, y, or z other things or that special people play EVE who don't have the same reasons as normal MMORPG players, but when you do that, it just makes you sound like an idiot. You're argument goes something like:
Gravity makes things fall to the ground. An apple fell to the ground, but I can't prove gravity made it fall, since there might be other possible causes.
Instead of saying that, why not just make the reasonable assumption that people do PVE in EVE, an MMORPG, for the same reason they do it in any other MMORPG? Or, if you have evidence to the contrary that is leading you to a different conclusion, share it with us so you don't sound so obtuse.
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DrSmegma
Smegma United
291
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 12:19:23 -
[1589] - Quote
Why does the chicken cross the road?
It's hard to say. It probably doesn't even know what a road is and it probably can't even see what's going on on the other side either. And I doubt it can actually think about this long enough to weigh off the benefits and drawbacks of going over there.
Eve too complicated? Try Astrum Regatta.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37926
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 12:24:17 -
[1590] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:blah...blah...
Once again you spectacularly fail to understand the discussion.
Yes, people might well PvE because they want to. You'll get no disagreement from me on that. The only thing is that the data being used to justify that opinion didn't.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11294
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 12:34:38 -
[1591] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:
CCP seem to think it has more to do with rich experiences over isolated play and they've drawn that conclusion from the data they've analyzed.
Yep, and they are right. Even miners will tell you that mining is 'better' when done in a group where people are chatting on comms.
The real issue here has nothing to do with 'new players', 'playstyles', or 'retention'. NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players who (like all human beings) found an exploitable advantage (war dec immunity) and ran with it. The talk about PVE is a deflection, most of the posters talking about PVE aren't even PVE players and wouldn't know the difference between their ass and an Outuni spawn. It's just more "you want me to play your way" BS, as if anyone cares what they personally do.
I personally don't care, I shoot things that used to be Red Xs (bring back my fracking Red Xs btw pls and/or thanks) for fun so I can't criticize. The issue has never been about forcing people into player corps so they can be shot at, it's about disliking the fact that CCP caters to these gross advantage seekers (Veteran NPC corp hiders) to the detriment of the rest of the game, on the false beleif that if you protect people, they will stay and eventually branch out and do other things.
CCP needs to re-adopt the old school "sink or swim" mentality they had in the beginning when you started the game in space and at the mercy of any passing a-hole. Those were the times that bred the hearty "it's just pixels" type community members that went on to make this game great. It's obvious to everyone with 2 brain cells to rub together that this era of safety (in a video game) hasn't worked at all. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 12:38:09 -
[1592] - Quote
Scipio Artemis wrote:Yes, people MIGHT well PvE because they want to.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37927
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 12:43:52 -
[1593] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Scipio Artemis wrote:Yes, people MIGHT well PvE because they want to.
Actually, might was the wrong word.
There are definitely people that PvE because they want to. They enjoy that and great for them. I hope everyone enjoys what they do in the game whether it is PvE, pvp, or both.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 13:39:31 -
[1594] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:There are definitely people that PvE because they want to.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
270
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 13:40:22 -
[1595] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players
So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage.
Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike? |
Aralyn Cormallen
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
1168
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 14:43:11 -
[1596] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Instead of saying that, why not just make the reasonable assumption that people do PVE in EVE, an MMORPG, for the same reason they do it in any other MMORPG? Or, if you have evidence to the contrary that is leading you to a different conclusion, share it with us so you don't sound so obtuse.
The question though, is what is that "same reason"?
- Is it because it is the part of the game they want to play?
- Is it because thats how you make isk/gold/donuts within that game and players like accumulating isk/gold/donuts?
- Is it because the game leads you to it, and humans being simple animals, tend to do what they are lead to do?
Scipio's arguement is to me, that we can't automatically assume it is the first reason. For some people it will be, but the other reasons are at least likely to equal that in the number of people who gravitate in to mission running for that reason (and other reasons I've not considered).
If there is some retention problem here (and we are agreed there is), we need to consider all the possibilities, and how to address those problems, not just put on the blinkers and focus on our personal prejudice.
- How do we make that part of the game more fun and rewarding for those who want to participate in it?
- How do we make isk/gold/donut accumulation more fun and rewarding for those who value their wallet/bank/donut-box balance?
- How do we ensure new players can easily get in to the part of the game they will find most enjoyment (and not be railroaded in to something that they do not)?
You might think its silly, but the third problem does happen. I joined for piracy, crime, and murder, and quit after three months of mission running. It took coming back nearly half a year later "with a plan" to get in to the side of the game I wanted to see, because first time round, I couldn't see the mayhem wood for the carefully-ordered wall of mission-trees. And of newbies I've tutored in to the game, nearly every one had to be peeled out of a mission-running dead-end because thats where the game funnelled them despite a variety of completely different goals they had when they first stepped in to the game. Hilariously, the only newbie I've tutored who didn't need that help is someone who had never played a single MMO before (barring a week of him frustrating my housemate by "not getting" WoW, and continually running off into places he "couldn't go"), and him I found running couriers contracts across Lowsec in a Destroyer, merrily exclaiming "its like being Han Solo". |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11297
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 14:47:36 -
[1597] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage. Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike?
A sure sign of knowing you argument fails is the act of 'over-broadening'. Playing smart (by having different clone sets, using alts etc) isn't nearly the same as a veteran inhabiting an NPC corp. Those other things come at a steep cost (alts tend to have fewer skill points, training time decreases if you use a PVP clone instead of a +5 implant high sec clone and so on). Being in an NPC corp comes at negligible cost (a few extra percentage points on tax that doesn't tax mining or loyalty points).
NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it.
If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6292
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 15:23:41 -
[1598] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it. Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec?
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11299
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 16:13:24 -
[1599] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it. Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec?
You mean the 2 guys (that just came back to the game last week) and their alts that left to form a wormhole corp 2 days before we got War Decced by marmite (our 1st war dec ever). I guess we all trained be psychic to 5 at some point lol.
The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
208
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 18:08:21 -
[1600] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
208
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Posted - 2015.06.09 18:15:17 -
[1601] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.
On the subject of risk and reward... if you believe that NPC corp players have too little risk of being shot at due to wardec immunity, how do you feel about station traders who have zero risk of being shot due to never needing to undock? Would a "rational gameplay situation" be something like allowing trades to be placed only when a pilot is undocked in an uncloaked ship, so that they can be shot at while making their ISK? |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11303
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 18:26:12 -
[1602] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.
So you literally asking "why aren't you hiding in an npc corp in a video game that allows you to form your own groups"? Because we don't need to, because our name means something to us and no amount of someone war deccing us is going to scare us away from that. And because we run incursions and ninja rat in SOV space when we aren't decced and paying npc tax when you don't need to is stupid when trying to make isk for other fun ventures.
Not everyone is a min/maxer, and some of us won't want/need to be coddled by video game mechanics in an open world mmo. What you said is the exact same thing as saying "If Ishtars are so unbalanced, why not just fly nothing but Ishtars".
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11303
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 18:31:44 -
[1603] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.
On the subject of risk and reward... if you believe that NPC corp players have too little risk of being shot at due to wardec immunity, how do you feel about station traders who have zero risk of being shot due to never needing to undock? Would a "rational gameplay situation" be something like allowing trades to be placed only when a pilot is undocked in an uncloaked ship, so that they can be shot at while making their ISK?
Station Traders don't make isk. Not in the EVE sense of the phrase.
And station trading comes with it's own risk of loss (being underbid by others to the point where you take a loss for example). Station Trading is always brought up as a dodge by people claiming that there is no problem (whether it's the incredibly skewed Combat PVE risk/reward imbalance or the inherent wrongness of Veterans exploiting NPC corps), but it's just a weak deflection, station trading has nothing to do with anything.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6294
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 18:40:34 -
[1604] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it. Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec? You mean the 2 guys (that just came back to the game last week) and their alts that left to form a wormhole corp 2 days before we got War Decced by marmite (our 1st war dec ever). I guess we all trained be psychic to 5 at some point lol. The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard. But the war started on the 4th, and all those members left on the 5th and 6th. You don't need to be psychic to predict the past. Seems like quite a coincidence that they all wanted to form a new corp just as a wardec rolled in.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 18:53:25 -
[1605] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Instead of saying that, why not just make the reasonable assumption that people do PVE in EVE, an MMORPG, for the same reason they do it in any other MMORPG? Or, if you have evidence to the contrary that is leading you to a different conclusion, share it with us so you don't sound so obtuse.
The question though, is what is that "same reason"? - Is it because it is the part of the game they want to play? - Is it because thats how you make isk/gold/donuts within that game and players like accumulating isk/gold/donuts? - Is it because the game leads you to it, and humans being simple animals, tend to do what they are lead to do? Scipio's arguement is to me, that we can't automatically assume it is the first reason. For some people it will be, but the other reasons are at least likely to equal that in the number of people who gravitate in to mission running for that reason (and other reasons I've not considered). If there is some retention problem here (and we are agreed there is), we need to consider all the possibilities, and how to address those problems, not just put on the blinkers and focus on our personal prejudice. - How do we make that part of the game more fun and rewarding for those who want to participate in it? - How do we make isk/gold/donut accumulation more fun and rewarding for those who value their wallet/bank/donut-box balance? - How do we ensure new players can easily get in to the part of the game they will find most enjoyment (and not be railroaded in to something that they do not)? You might think its silly, but the third problem does happen. I joined for piracy, crime, and murder, and quit after three months of mission running. It took coming back nearly half a year later "with a plan" to get in to the side of the game I wanted to see, because first time round, I couldn't see the mayhem wood for the carefully-ordered wall of mission-trees. And of newbies I've tutored in to the game, nearly every one had to be peeled out of a mission-running dead-end because thats where the game funnelled them despite a variety of completely different goals they had when they first stepped in to the game. Hilariously, the only newbie I've tutored who didn't need that help is someone who had never played a single MMO before (barring a week of him frustrating my housemate by "not getting" WoW, and continually running off into places he "couldn't go"), and him I found running couriers contracts across Lowsec in a Destroyer, merrily exclaiming "its like being Han Solo".
It could be all those reasons. Why not let CCP decide as they have all the data, and authority to make changes. Hell if CCP would add a poll to the forums, you could ask the players directly and get an idea about things that way. It is better to be objective in these cases. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
2993
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Posted - 2015.06.09 18:54:39 -
[1606] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage. Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike? A sure sign of knowing you argument fails is the act of 'over-broadening'. Playing smart (by having different clone sets, using alts etc) isn't nearly the same as a veteran inhabiting an NPC corp. Those other things come at a steep cost (alts tend to have fewer skill points, training time decreases if you use a PVP clone instead of a +5 implant high sec clone and so on). Being in an NPC corp comes at negligible cost (a few extra percentage points on tax that doesn't tax mining or loyalty points). NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it. If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players.
I love it when somebody throws around the terms risk aversion as if it is a derogatory term, then turns right around and proclaims their own risk averse behavior as "playing smart".
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11304
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:00:38 -
[1607] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are refuges for weak willed and risk averse VETERAN players So is high sec, null sec, alliances, implants, skills, "PVP clones", Tengus, alts, etc. It is all just an attempt to gain advantage over our fellow players; is it not? Even this so-called "social interaction" is often just politics to gain an advantage. Which advantages do you approve of and what differentiates them from NPC corps and other advantages that you dislike? A sure sign of knowing you argument fails is the act of 'over-broadening'. Playing smart (by having different clone sets, using alts etc) isn't nearly the same as a veteran inhabiting an NPC corp. Those other things come at a steep cost (alts tend to have fewer skill points, training time decreases if you use a PVP clone instead of a +5 implant high sec clone and so on). Being in an NPC corp comes at negligible cost (a few extra percentage points on tax that doesn't tax mining or loyalty points). NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it. If nothing else, the cost of being in a npc corp should be higher (like a loyalty point gain penalty, and mining yield tax for starters), people won't leave and form player corps (safety is worth more than any potential penalties) but that isn't the goal in the 1st place the goal is a more rational gameplay situation, where people aren't rewarded for avoiding risk as they become veteran players. I love it when somebody throws around the term risk aversion as if it is a derogatory term, then turns right around and proclaims their own risk averse behavior as "playing smart".
The 2 are different things. No on says "go out there and Kamikaze", reasonable measures to protect your assets are reasonable measures. Nothing wrong with that.
It's when those measures (both mechanical and player created) are too good that they start having unintended consequences, such as rich veteran players hiding in NPC corps while amassing even more in game wealth in high sec. There should be a cost associated with such a move (such as the taxing methods I mentioned beofre, or something like "membership in a factions NPC corp makes you KOS with that factions enemy).
Funny thing is, if those kinds of costs did exist, I wouldn't have been so eager to make my own, because succeeding in an npc corp against such costs would be challenging and non-lame............................................................... gameplay.
Sorry for that pause there, I was dodging high sec war dec killmail whores while typing... Because it's not hard.
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Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:02:31 -
[1608] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves.
Agreed. Fun fact though, Jenn is a shameless multiboxer. Those three in the corp are alternate accounts or alts probably. Heck the characters that left to WH corps are probably alt accounts. |
Xaneth
P47
1
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:03:31 -
[1609] - Quote
Everything that makes isk in Eve has some sort of risk involved. I would say that the fact that many players are staying in NPC corps actually validates the Eve Universe principles. People want to safeguard their assets in RL. The fact that players see the in game assets of Eve as assets to be preserved is a victory for the CCP game strategy. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11307
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:08:03 -
[1610] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:NPC corps are probably a necessary evil, and in a way they are because some people are too weak willed to play an open world MMO without a crutch, and npc corps (and high sec) serve that purpose. But being necessary doesn't make it any less Evil. My little corp is war decced by Marmite RIGHT NOW and we're ok, means anyone can do it. Is it just a coincidence that third of your corp members left immediately following the war dec? You mean the 2 guys (that just came back to the game last week) and their alts that left to form a wormhole corp 2 days before we got War Decced by marmite (our 1st war dec ever). I guess we all trained be psychic to 5 at some point lol. The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard. But the war started on the 4th, and all those members left on the 5th and 6th. You don't need to be psychic to predict the past. Seems like quite a coincidence that they all wanted to form a new corp just as a wardec rolled in.
Believe what you like. I'm not in control of what others do (no matter the reason, but i've explained this one to you), those 2 just came back and wanted to do something different, even though they left were still R/L friends we will be wormhole daytripping this week (with their own corp they control their own POSs).
But you notice I'm still in my own war decced corp right? Look I get it, you're still..stung over me getting too close to the truth about you. That's fine, but rather than nitpicking me about the actions of other players who aren't me, you might want to work on your inability to recognize and embrace difficult truths.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11307
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:11:47 -
[1611] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves. Agreed. Fun fact though, Jenn is a shameless multiboxer. Those three in the corp are alternate accounts or alts probably. Heck the characters that left to WH corps are probably alt accounts.
And the problem with multiboxing in a game that allows multiboxing (as long as you don't automate it) is what exactly?
Oh i get it, you're one of those proud "I'm awesome because I play a video game with one account" bigots I see. Well lol, you got me there, I feel dirty, I'ma go wash my self off...in a bath of isk i made using FoF missile ravens that aren't against the rules.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
208
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:15:03 -
[1612] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:So you literally asking "why aren't you hiding in an npc corp in a video game that allows you to form your own groups"? Because we don't need to, because our name means something to us and no amount of someone war deccing us is going to scare us away from that. And because we run incursions and ninja rat in SOV space when we aren't decced and paying npc tax when you don't need to is stupid when trying to make isk for other fun ventures.
Not everyone is a min/maxer, and some of us won't want/need to be coddled by video game mechanics in an open world mmo. What you said is the exact same thing as saying "If Ishtars are so unbalanced, why not just fly nothing but Ishtars".
Indeed, I am literally asking you that question, and thank you for answering. Interestingly, your answer closely parallels what mine would be if I were asked "Why aren't you in a player corp in a video game that allows you to socialize in so many different ways?" Because I don't need to, because my corp name means something (CAS has been specifically mentioned in this thread numerous times so I hope you understand why that is without me going in to it further,) and because I live in nullsec where wardecs are never thought about. I too am not a min/maxer, and don't want/need to be coddled by 0% corp taxes.
(And "why not fly Ishtars" is a perfectly legit question to ask somebody IMO, and for all sorts of reason people do and don't fly them regardless of the current fleet meta.) |
Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
1090
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:19:39 -
[1613] - Quote
Xaneth wrote:Everything that makes isk in Eve has some sort of risk involved. I would say that the fact that many players are staying in NPC corps actually validates the Eve Universe principles. People want to safeguard their assets in RL. The fact that players see the in game assets of Eve as assets to be preserved is a victory for the CCP game strategy.
There is no problem if you want to stay in an NPC because you are risk-averse. You should be able to tune your risk level in the game. But if you want to play with a large amount of safety you should get only a small amount of reward. Conversely, if you accept a large amount of risk, you should be rewarded for that choice - or explode in a glorious fireball.
The problem with NPC vs. player corps currently is that this risk vs. reward balance is near non-existent. Veterans can make almost the same amount of ISK in a NPC corp, or the same amount if they are willing to shed a wardec by dropping corp and reforming, as they can in a player corp. This is inherently broken as it provides no incentive to take risks in this game and offer yourself up as a target.
This lack of respect for risk vs. reward is the most fundamental design problem with Eve these days and is a serious contributor to the general malaise that seems to be gripping New Eden. Players have little reason to join player corps, take and defend sov, or otherwise do something meaningful. Given the choice, players prefer to make their ISK in near 100% safety in highsec doing industry or incurions/mission neutering the conflict that is the lifeblood of this game. More and more it is just consensual and meaningless roams that seem to be the only fights left in New Eden and this is because players everywhere are too safe and have little incentive to take risks. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:20:55 -
[1614] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves. Agreed. Fun fact though, Jenn is a shameless multiboxer. Those three in the corp are alternate accounts or alts probably. Heck the characters that left to WH corps are probably alt accounts. And the problem with multiboxing in a game that allows multiboxing (as long as you don't automate it) is what exactly? Oh i get it, you're one of those proud "I'm awesome because I play a video game with one account" bigots I see. Well lol, you got me there, I feel dirty, I'ma go wash my self off...in a bath of isk i made using FoF missile ravens that aren't against the rules.
Never said it was against the rules, but all you arguments in this thread are hypocritical by the fact that you created a corp full of alts.
Its like a kid who decided to stay in his room an play with puppets instead of going outside to meet real friends. Then, when a lonely kid comes around he says: "I'm cooler than you because I associate with puppets rather than real kids. Go outside and make friends lonely kid!."
TL;DR: Your statements are hypocritical! |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11307
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 19:26:07 -
[1615] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:
Indeed, I am literally asking you that question, and thank you for answering. Interestingly, your answer closely parallels what mine would be if I were asked "Why aren't you in a player corp in a video game that allows you to socialize in so many different ways?" Because I don't need to, because my corp name means something (CAS has been specifically mentioned in this thread numerous times so I hope you understand why that is without me going in to it further,) and because I live in nullsec where wardecs are never thought about. I too am not a min/maxer, and don't want/need to be coddled by 0% corp taxes.
Where you live or for what reason you reside in an npc corp is irrelevant. No one 'needs' to choose. The problem here is the fact that NPC corp are a game damaging dodge for rich veteran players, most of whom reside in high sec. Ideally NPC corps should offer value to solo and casual high sec (and perhaps low sec) players and new(er) players, but be unattractive to established veteran 'hard core' players who are usualy the ones amassing wealth (like those crazy miner isboxers who used to clean belts before anyone else could, ideally , other miners would be able to war dec or pay mercenaries to war dec someone like that to give other miners breathing space).
Quote:
(And "why not fly Ishtars" is a perfectly legit question to ask somebody IMO, and for all sorts of reason people do and don't fly them regardless of the current fleet meta.)
This means you don't understand the saying or do and are still dodging. Telling someone to "just fly ishtars (or in the past, Drakes) doesn't address the game bending imbalances that lead to less enjoyable game experiences. In fact, it's just a deflection, usually by someone who wants to maintain a broken status quo for selfish reasons.
Ditto NPC corps are refuges for rich vets (like incursion runners in 5 bil isk Vindicators. NPC corps are literally the EVE online equivalent of offshore tax havens.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6294
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:29:51 -
[1616] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Believe what you like. I'm not in control of what others do (no matter the reason, but i've explained this one to you), those 2 just came back and wanted to do something different, even though they left were still R/L friends we will be wormhole daytripping this week (with their own corp they control their own POSs).
But you notice I'm still in my own war decced corp right? Look I get it, you're still..stung over me getting too close to the truth about you. That's fine, but rather than nitpicking me about the actions of other players who aren't me, you might want to work on your inability to recognize and embrace difficult truths. Lol, I'm not stung about anything being that I live in a section of space where wars are irrelevant since there's no concord. I just find it endlessly amusing that you're on your high horse about how daring you are when at war, when the only war your corp has ever been involved in has caused the loss of a third of your member count. The truth is you're no different from the "carebears" you look down on.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11307
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:35:46 -
[1617] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Aza Ebanu wrote:Eli Stan wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:The rest of us (3 real people) are still in corp, still flying in high sec and still not dying to marmite. It's not hard.
Why, exactly, are the three of you in a corp? Why not disband the corp, then play cooperatively as three NPC mains? If you consider being in an NPC corp to be a game mechanic that confers a large advantage, why not take advantage of it? It's like fitting a single gun on some Thrashers and then complaining about all the people who have fit multiple guns. You might consider yourselves better, tougher EVE players for it, but you appear simply to be artificially limiting yourselves. Agreed. Fun fact though, Jenn is a shameless multiboxer. Those three in the corp are alternate accounts or alts probably. Heck the characters that left to WH corps are probably alt accounts. And the problem with multiboxing in a game that allows multiboxing (as long as you don't automate it) is what exactly? Oh i get it, you're one of those proud "I'm awesome because I play a video game with one account" bigots I see. Well lol, you got me there, I feel dirty, I'ma go wash my self off...in a bath of isk i made using FoF missile ravens that aren't against the rules. Never said it was against the rules, but all you arguments in this thread are hypocritical by the fact that you created a corp full of alts. Its like a kid who decided to stay in his room an play with puppets instead of going outside to meet real friends. Then, when a lonely kid comes around he says: "I'm cooler than you because I associate with puppets rather than real kids. Go outside and make friends lonely kid!." TL;DR: Your statements are hypocritical!
Your inability to understand the situation is a personal problem. All of my characters aren't in the Aces, (in fact only 4 of the current 12 are 'me'). The other 7 are in other corps, 1 in RvB, several in a cyno corp belonging to my mull sec corp, 1 in my buddies new wormhole corp, a couple in the null sec corp I'm in etc.
I'm not sitting around playing with puppets, I'm sitting around plaything with people in multiple situations, i fly with EVE Radio every Thursday night for example.
But how I (or anyone one else) is playing is immaterial, I don't give a flip about what others do, I'm discussing the merits of currently existing game mechanics on the game world we are playing in (NPC corps in this instance). Sometimes, even mechanics and content I engage in is unbalanced (INCURSIONS) and that is what I discuss, but this one is about NPC corps.
As i learned a quarter of a centruy ago as a kid in a high school Debate club, when the opposition is left sputtering and have to resort to off topic things (like the membership of my high sec corp lol), you know you've struck an emotional chord, and that they are running on an empty tank.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
210
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:37:31 -
[1618] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Station Traders don't make isk. Not in the EVE sense of the phrase.
And station trading comes with it's own risk of loss (being underbid by others to the point where you take a loss for example). Station Trading is always brought up as a dodge by people claiming that there is no problem (whether it's the incredibly skewed Combat PVE risk/reward imbalance or the inherent wrongness of Veterans exploiting NPC corps), but it's just a weak deflection, station trading has nothing to do with anything.
Just like station trading comes with it's own form of risk, NPC characters hauling, mining and missioning face their own form of risk - billion ISK freighter losses for NPC corp pilots happen every day just about, for example, and NPC corp pilots lose mining barges in highsec every day too.
But station trading doesn't make ISK? I've been researching what it would take to get in to station trading with a market alt. People reportedly make hundreds of millions, even billions, of ISK per month via station trading - it can be extremely lucrative from what I've read. And because it's a form of gameplay that happens often in highsec and is immune to wardecs, It is closely related to the topic at hand. You appear to be concerned about people mining, hauling, running missions and such in highsec without the risk of being wardeced, but not concerned about doing economic transactions without the risk of being wardeced, and I'm not sure why you make such a distinction.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11307
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:39:42 -
[1619] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Believe what you like. I'm not in control of what others do (no matter the reason, but i've explained this one to you), those 2 just came back and wanted to do something different, even though they left were still R/L friends we will be wormhole daytripping this week (with their own corp they control their own POSs).
But you notice I'm still in my own war decced corp right? Look I get it, you're still..stung over me getting too close to the truth about you. That's fine, but rather than nitpicking me about the actions of other players who aren't me, you might want to work on your inability to recognize and embrace difficult truths. Lol, I'm not stung about anything being that I live in a section of space where wars are irrelevant since there's no concord. I just find it endlessly amusing that you're on your high horse about how daring you are when at war, when the only war your corp has ever been involved in has caused the loss of a third of your member count. The truth is you're no different from the "carebears" you look down on.
You wouldn't know the truth is it bit you on the exhaust of what ever unbalanced spacecraft you like to fly (probably ishtar). I explained to you that the war dec (our 1st) didn't 'cause' anything, and even if in some universe we don't reside in it did, what has that got to do with me?
The fact that you reject that proves what I already know about you, so no need to harp on it. You're grasping for straws and making a fool of yourself for doing it. And over a video game you claim "is not to be taken seriously".
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11308
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:51:43 -
[1620] - Quote
Eli Stan wrote:
Just like station trading comes with it's own form of risk, NPC characters hauling, mining and missioning face their own form of risk - billion ISK freighter losses for NPC corp pilots happen every day just about, for example, and NPC corp pilots lose mining barges in highsec every day too.
Thank you for illustrating the point. Those pilots face suicde gank risk. PLAYER CORP pilots face suicide gank AND WAR DEC risk.
The cost of war dec protection is 11% corp taxes. No mining yeild tax. No LP store penalty, no ship class restriction, no travel restrictions (you're a member of a Gallente NPC corp, but unless you screwed up your standings, all of Caldari space is yours to travel), no nothing. 11% corp tax and inability to own certain structures, that's it.
And that's the reason NPC corps become these RichVet havens like blinged out incursion runners (many of whom are alts of out-of-highsec players, creating a 'wealth funnel' that makes WH, Null sec and low sec conflict aimed at cutting supply lines totally irrelevant).
Good reform ups the cost of residing in an NPC corp for such rich vets while making them ok places to hang your hat if you are a true new player or casual.
Quote:But station trading doesn't make ISK? I've been researching what it would take to get in to station trading with a market alt. People reportedly make hundreds of millions, even billions, of ISK per month via station trading - it can be extremely lucrative from what I've read. And because it's a form of gameplay that happens often in highsec and is immune to wardecs, It is closely related to the topic at hand. You appear to be concerned about people mining, hauling, running missions and such in highsec without the risk of being wardeced, but not concerned about doing economic transactions without the risk of being wardeced, and I'm not sure why you make such a distinction.
Station trading doesn't produce new isk or materials, in space activities do. NPC corp members get to do this with reduced risk and negligible cost (11% tax and inability to place structures). people don't need to be forced out of npc corps, Veterans using npc corps as a refuge should face higher costs for the protection.
The risk of station trading is other station traders. not everyone makes isk doing it, sometimes there are losers. The inherent risk of loss makes market gameplay balanced. There is no inherent risk from being in an npc corp, in fact in high sec being in an npc corp cuts risk in have (by eliminating war decs, leaving only suicide ganking and tricking a -player into aggressing as the only in space risks)
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
274
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:53:29 -
[1621] - Quote
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:The question though, is what is that "same reason"?
- Is it because it is the part of the game they want to play?
- Is it because that's how you make isk/gold/donuts within that game and players like accumulating isk/gold/donuts?
- Is it because the game leads you to it, and humans being simple animals, tend to do what they are lead to do?
Scipio's argument is to me, that we can't automatically assume it is the first reason. For some people it will be, but the other reasons are at least likely to equal that in the number of people who gravitate in to mission running for that reason (and other reasons I've not considered).
You are calling into question the very concept of volition.
Can a person do something they don't WANT to do? Does there not have to be a willful intention in every act a person takes that must, at some level, be coherent with their desire? (Else, how could we call it THEIR act?) There may be a LONG chain of causality, but isn't farming ISK/gold/donuts ultimately in-line with what a person WANTS if that is what they are choosing to do?
We could posit the opposite, that people can be FORCED to make a particular CHOICE, but . . . well, that's crazy and complicated.
Rather than say they don't WANT to farm ISK/gold/donuts, we might be better off examining WHY they WANT to farm ISK/gold/donuts, and how their ultimate intentions (to PVP, to be admired/envied by others, to survive, etc.), expressed through their condition in the game (experience, skillpoints, social contacts, equipment/gear/game possessions, etc.), yield a specific outcome (whether they stay, how long they stay, how they affect the game, etc.).
TL;DR: People can only do what they want. Why would they want to do things that make them unhappy? How do we help them out of that situation in a way that doesn't break the game? |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
210
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Posted - 2015.06.09 19:54:14 -
[1622] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
Where you live or for what reason you reside in an npc corp is irrelevant. No one 'needs' to choose. The problem here is the fact that NPC corp are a game damaging dodge for rich veteran players, most of whom reside in high sec. Ideally NPC corps should offer value to solo and casual high sec (and perhaps low sec) players and new(er) players, but be unattractive to established veteran 'hard core' players who are usualy the ones amassing wealth (like those crazy miner isboxers who used to clean belts before anyone else could, ideally , other miners would be able to war dec or pay mercenaries to war dec someone like that to give other miners breathing space).
I totally disagree with your judgement that veteran players in NPC corps damage the game. I have not seen any data that supports that opinion. Would you mind sharing your reasons why you think that? You mention the specific case of multiboxing miners - which are no longer a factor, due to changes in the rules regarding multiboxers doing input broadcasting rather than changes to the NPC corp system. What else... Incursion runners? While I personally have no experience with that part of EVE and therefore can't say whether or not NPC corp characters running Incursions is damaging to the game or not, I'd suggest that if it is a problem, the solution for it, like with multiboxing, is to address the Incursion mechanic gameplay directly, rather than quite indirectly by modifying NPC corp mechanics.
Quote:Quote:
(And "why not fly Ishtars" is a perfectly legit question to ask somebody IMO, and for all sorts of reason people do and don't fly them regardless of the current fleet meta.)
This means you don't understand the saying or do and are still dodging. Telling someone to "just fly ishtars (or in the past, Drakes) doesn't address the game bending imbalances that lead to less enjoyable game experiences. In fact, it's just a deflection, usually by someone who wants to maintain a broken status quo for selfish reasons.
I'm not telling you to join an NPC corp or to fly an Ishtar, I'm asking you why you don't so I can better understand your position.
Quote:Ditto NPC corps are refuges for rich vets (like incursion runners in 5 bil isk Vindicators. NPC corps are literally the EVE online equivalent of offshore tax havens.
I find it odd you state that, when it's the NPC corps who are subject to 11% tax (which realistically is an ISK sink since it never returns to the game) while it's player corps that can have a 0% tax, or if there is a tax it all goes to other players who then have the ability to put it back into the game. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
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Posted - 2015.06.09 20:00:00 -
[1623] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:
But how I (or anyone one else) is playing is immaterial, I don't give a flip about what others do,
Yeah you do. Don't try to make it about game mechanics or I'll have to submit links and make you look like a bigger hypocrite. |
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
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Posted - 2015.06.09 20:03:49 -
[1624] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: PLAYER CORP pilots face suicide gank AND WAR DEC risk.
The cost of war dec protection is 11% corp taxes. No mining yeild tax. No LP store penalty, no ship class restriction, no travel restrictions (you're a member of a Gallente NPC corp, but unless you screwed up your standings, all of Caldari space is yours to travel), no nothing. 11% corp tax and inability to own certain structures, that's it.
And that's the reason NPC corps become these RichVet havens like blinged out incursion runners (many of whom are alts of out-of-highsec players, creating a 'wealth funnel' that makes WH, Null sec and low sec conflict aimed at cutting supply lines totally irrelevant).
Plenty of folks in player corps run incursions. The only thing NPC corps are protected from is "sec status enforcement manipulation" because, the NPC corp pays CONCORD more. Why can't you understand that? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37933
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 20:39:36 -
[1625] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: How do we help them out of that situation in a way that doesn't break the game?
CCP are already doing what they think can help. The best we can do is:
1. Support rather than fight against CCP and complain that what they are doing doesn't make sense;
2. Form more engaging, active and new-player friendly Corps where all the members provide content for each other
3. Turn the NPC Corps into effective social environments (eg. Setup team speak/mumble servers, corp forums, slack/irc, run regular Corp fleets, run Corp training sessions...all the things that CCP acknowledge that player Corps do well in providing rich experiences for their members)
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37933
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 20:53:35 -
[1626] - Quote
Phone fail.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6294
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:02:09 -
[1627] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You wouldn't know the truth is it bit you on the exhaust of what ever unbalanced spacecraft you like to fly (probably ishtar). I explained to you that the war dec (our 1st) didn't 'cause' anything, and even if in some universe we don't reside in it did, what has that got to do with me?
The fact that you reject that proves what I already know about you, so no need to harp on it. You're grasping for straws and making a fool of yourself for doing it. And over a video game you claim "is not to be taken seriously". Lol, you're the one doing all the damage control following the exodus cause by your first wardec. You can point fingers and tell me it's all my fault, but the facts remain that your corp got wardecced and immediately afterwards a third of the members left.
And no, a game isn't to be taken seriously. You however like to insult people to no end about how carebearish you think they are and how amazing and hardcore you and all your friends are, and it's evidently not so true. That I find very entertaining. No need to get all upset about it.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13375
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:03:33 -
[1628] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Lol, you're the one doing all the damage control following the exodus cause by your first wardec.
"The truth is whatever I feel like it should be!"
~Lucas Kell, 2015.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1681
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:09:19 -
[1629] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"The truth is whatever I feel like it should be!"
Yea
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Aza Ebanu
Old Spice Syndicate
Intrepid Crossing
93
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:15:50 -
[1630] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote: How do we help them out of that situation in a way that doesn't break the game? CCP are already doing what they think can help. The best we can do is: 1. Support rather than fight against CCP by complaining that what they are doing doesn't make sense, or is a fail, or isn't based on sound decision making; 2. Form more engaging, active and new-player friendly Corps where all the members provide content for each other; 3. Turn the NPC Corps into effective social environments (eg. Setup team speak/mumble servers, corp forums, slack/irc, run regular Corp fleets, run Corp training sessions...all the things that CCP acknowledge that player Corps do well in providing rich experiences and training for their members) If you are doing the first and neither of the others, then your just part of the problem. That's my only issue with players who sit in NPC Corps and never contribute to making those Corps effective, and yet ***** and moan here that player run Corps just open people up to wardecs and should be avoided. They are players that know the game has an issue with retention but don't do anything actively to help. Self interest rules for them over shared interest but they complain that it's others that contribute to retention problems.
#3 is redundant. CAS has proven that all of that can be done without player corp status.
CCP should be thinking of ways to enhance player corps in the first place.
Suggestions:
1. Clean up the corp name database so people can use "now defunct " corp names.
2. Extend missions to corps. Can use copr mission levels to scale with corp size . lvl 1 is 10 members, etc...
3. Remove wardecs, and add incursion/FW bonus and penalties for common corporate operations based on corporate standings.
4. Add a partial SOV mechanic to low sec.
5. More in-game events for null sec space.
Q. Why these suggestions are not essentially PVP focused?
A. CCP is still balancing ships, ore, sov mechanics, etc. These things can be implemented in game with far less financial cost to the devs, and far less re-balancing issues to PVP.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6294
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:16:13 -
[1631] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Lol, you're the one doing all the damage control following the exodus cause by your first wardec. "The truth is whatever I feel like it should be!" ~Lucas Kell, 2015. Generally when neither side of an opinion can be trusted I tend to go with the facts. In this case the facts show that a wardec starts then a third of the members leave. If this wasn't someone you particularly like and was instead one of the players you hate so much, you'd likely point out the same. Instead, like Jenn you're just attempting to discredit me so that people don't look at the fully verifiable facts.
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37933
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:30:57 -
[1632] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:#3 is redundant. CAS has proven that all of that can be done without player corp status.
Hardly. What can be done versus what is actually being done are two very different things.
There are 12 starter Corps and then the other NPC Corps players end up in.
That CAS is an example that sticks out from the others. It's is a perfect example of the self interest shown by the people here who don't contribute to their NPC Corp, but whinge here in the forum that others and CCP should be doing something.
Start contributing to make the NPC Corps great and that's where the issues of retention will really start to be reversed. CCP can only provide the game environment. The social environment needs people being social. That's not what most NPC Corps do.
Quote:CCP should be thinking of ways to enhance player corps in the first place.
Suggestions:
1. Clean up the corp name database so people can use "now defunct " corp names.
2. Extend missions to corps. Can use copr mission levels to scale with corp size . lvl 1 is 10 members, etc...
3. Remove wardecs, and add incursion/FW bonus and penalties for common corporate operations based on corporate standings.
4. Add a partial SOV mechanic to low sec.
5. More in-game events for null sec space.
Q. Why these suggestions are not essentially PVP focused?
A. CCP is still balancing ships, ore, sov mechanics, etc. These things can be implemented in game with far less financial cost to the devs, and far less re-balancing issues to PVP.
Have you actually made these suggestions to CCP as well constructed threads in F&I?
Some I can see merit in, others have more downsides than ups, but without them being properly proposed to CCP, they won't see them.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
274
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:35:38 -
[1633] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:1. Support rather than fight against CCP by complaining that what they are doing doesn't make sense, or is a fail, or isn't based on sound decision making;
2. Form more engaging, active and new-player friendly Corps where all the members provide content for each other;
3. Turn the NPC Corps into effective social environments (eg. Setup team speak/mumble servers, corp forums, slack/irc, run regular Corp fleets, run Corp training sessions...all the things that CCP acknowledge that player Corps do well in providing rich experiences and training for their members)
1. Yes! Support . . . CCP made NPC corps to help. Support them.
2. It's not that simple:
A) It's not my job to create content for others. Doing the work for others may even be counter-productive.
B) What if I don't WANT to create content for others?
C) What if I don't KNOW how to create content for others?
D) What if others don't WANT or KNOW how to create content for themselves or don't WANT me to create it for them?
E) I don't control anyone but myself. Trying to control others leads to abuse.
F) Some players are intentionally out to disrupt the creation of such a corp, if it is not a "PVP" corp or it is otherwise not conforming to what they think a corp should be.
3. You are essentially suggesting that NPC corps get buffed, if not by CCP then by the players themselves. Is that what you MEAN to say? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37933
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 21:44:13 -
[1634] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Scipio Artellius wrote:1. Support rather than fight against CCP by complaining that what they are doing doesn't make sense, or is a fail, or isn't based on sound decision making;
2. Form more engaging, active and new-player friendly Corps where all the members provide content for each other;
3. Turn the NPC Corps into effective social environments (eg. Setup team speak/mumble servers, corp forums, slack/irc, run regular Corp fleets, run Corp training sessions...all the things that CCP acknowledge that player Corps do well in providing rich experiences and training for their members)
1. Yes! Support . . . CCP made NPC corps to help. Support them. 2. It's not that simple: A) It's not my job to create content for others. Doing the work for others may even be counter-productive. B) What if I don't WANT to create content for others? C) What if I don't KNOW how to create content for others? D) What if others don't WANT or KNOW how to create content for themselves or don't WANT me to create it for them? E) I don't control anyone but myself. Trying to control others leads to abuse. F) Some players are intentionally out to disrupt the creation of such a corp, if it is not a "PVP" corp or it is otherwise not conforming to what they think a corp should be. 3. You are essentially suggesting that NPC corps get buffed, if not by CCP then by the players themselves. Is that what you MEAN to say?
Yes, CCP made NPC Corps and they are a needed mechanic. They are still a Corp, but most older NPC sitting players just treat them as a safe haven for their own activity rather than a group of people.
Of course it isn't your job. Even for many players in player Corps, they consume rather than create content for others. But they also aren't here whinging that CCP and others should be doing more. They aren't here whining and complaining for nerfs to others play styles to suit their own self interests and they aren't here complaining that CCP is failing just because they are trying to make changes that will help.
Even those that don't often create content in player corps still regularly contribute to the social environment of the corp just by taking part in the activities that the Corp runs. NPC sitters rarely do the same.
No one is suggesting you try to control anyone other than yourself. Most NPC sitting complainers don't even do that though. Rather than take personal responsibility for things and try to offer what they can, it constantly comes back to externalising the problems as being CCPs fault, or some other player or groups fault. Never, what can they do to help other players. Only, what can they complain about that helps themselves.
You don't need buffs for players to get active. It just needs players to get active.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
275
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 22:34:21 -
[1635] - Quote
Scipio Artellius wrote:Yes, CCP made NPC Corps and they are a needed mechanic. They are still a Corp, but most older NPC sitting players just treat them as a safe haven for their own activity rather than a group of people.
Of course it isn't your job. Even for many players in player Corps, they consume rather than create content for others. But they also aren't here whinging that CCP and others should be doing more. They aren't here whining and complaining for nerfs to others play styles to suit their own self interests and they aren't here complaining that CCP is failing just because they are trying to make changes that will help.
Even those that don't often create content in player corps still regularly contribute to the social environment of the corp just by taking part in the activities that the Corp runs. NPC sitters rarely do the same.
No one is suggesting you try to control anyone other than yourself. Most NPC sitting complainers don't even do that though. Rather than take personal responsibility for things and try to offer what they can, it constantly comes back to externalising the problems as being CCPs fault, or some other player or groups fault. Never, what can they do to help other players. Only, what can they complain about that helps themselves.
You don't need buffs for players to get active. It just needs players to get active
Yes, CCP made Player Corps and they are a needed mechanic. They are still a social group, but most older Player Corp sitting players just treat them as a safe haven for their own activity rather than a group of people.
Of course it isn't your job. Even for many players in NPC Corps, they create rather than consume content from others. And they also aren't here whining that CCP and others should be doing more. They aren't here whining and complaining for nerfs to others play styles to suit their own self interests and they aren't here complaining that CCP is failing just because they are trying to make changes that will help.
Even those that don't often create content in NPC corps still regularly contribute to the social environment of the corp just by taking part in the activities that the Corp runs. Player Corp sitters rarely do the same.
No one is suggesting you try to control anyone other than yourself. Most Player Corp sitting complainers don't even do that though. Rather than take personal responsibility for things and try to offer what they can, it constantly comes back to externalising the problems as being CCPs fault, or some other player or groups fault. Never, what can they do to help other players. Only, what can they complain about that helps themselves.
You don't need buffs for players to get active. It just needs players to get active. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37933
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 22:44:12 -
[1636] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:3Yes, CCP made Player Corps and they are a needed mechanic. They are still a social group, but most older Player Corp sitting players just treat them as a safe haven for their own activity rather than a group of people.
Of course it isn't your job. Even for many players in NPC Corps, they create rather than consume content from others. And they also aren't here whining that CCP and others should be doing more. They aren't here whining and complaining for nerfs to others play styles to suit their own self interests and they aren't here complaining that CCP is failing just because they are trying to make changes that will help.
Even those that don't often create content in NPC corps still regularly contribute to the social environment of the corp just by taking part in the activities that the Corp runs. Player Corp sitters rarely do the same.
No one is suggesting you try to control anyone other than yourself. Most Player Corp sitting complainers don't even do that though. Rather than take personal responsibility for things and try to offer what they can, it constantly comes back to externalising the problems as being CCPs fault, or some other player or groups fault. Never, what can they do to help other players. Only, what can they complain about that helps themselves.
You don't need buffs for players to get active. It just needs players to get active.
Typical bullshit, except for the last line. That's exactly what's needed.
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11313
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 23:22:04 -
[1637] - Quote
Aza Ebanu wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
But how I (or anyone one else) is playing is immaterial, I don't give a flip about what others do,
Yeah you do. Don't try to make it about game mechanics or I'll have to submit links and make you look like a bigger hypocrite.
Submit what you like, you do know we're talking about a game right?
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Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11313
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 23:25:51 -
[1638] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Lol, you're the one doing all the damage control following the exodus cause by your first wardec. "The truth is whatever I feel like it should be!" ~Lucas Kell, 2015. Generally when neither side of an opinion can be trusted I tend to go with the facts. In this case the facts show that a wardec starts then a third of the members leave. If this wasn't someone you particularly like and was instead one of the players you hate so much, you'd likely point out the same. Instead, like Jenn you're just attempting to discredit me so that people don't look at the fully verifiable facts.
You simply don't have a drop of decency in you, and nothing we say about this game is going to change that. I told yo why 2 of my friends who just came back to the game left my corp. You think I need to lie to some nobody on a forum? None of this stuff is real man. If you think that, you really should step back from this game and forum and think about things.
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
210
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 23:42:47 -
[1639] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Eli Stan wrote:
Just like station trading comes with it's own form of risk, NPC characters hauling, mining and missioning face their own form of risk - billion ISK freighter losses for NPC corp pilots happen every day just about, for example, and NPC corp pilots lose mining barges in highsec every day too.
Thank you for illustrating the point. Those pilots face suicde gank risk. PLAYER CORP pilots face suicide gank AND WAR DEC risk.
Indeed. And the point is risk vs reward, right? Since we've discussed the different levels of risk, we should then also discuss the different levels of reward. Namely, NPC corp pilots cannot jointly hold property with other pilots, which includes items like POCOs, POSes and SOV, and NPC corp pilots are subject to an 11% corporation tax while corp pilots can chose 0% tax.
Seems to me to be a reasonable balance between the two. There's no need for things to be monolithic. Just like an Atron is a fast but fragile frigate while an Incursus is a slower but tankier frigate with more DPS - the Atron and the Incusus are different yet balanced, just like the NPC corp and player corp character are different but balanced, with different bonuses and penalties such that different players can make different choices between the two based on their preferences.
Quote:The cost of war dec protection is 11% corp taxes. No mining yeild tax. No LP store penalty, no ship class restriction, no travel restrictions (you're a member of a Gallente NPC corp, but unless you screwed up your standings, all of Caldari space is yours to travel), no nothing. 11% corp tax and inability to own certain structures, that's it.
Yep. Sounds good to me. (YMMV, obviously. )
Quote:And that's the reason NPC corps become these RichVet havens like blinged out incursion runners (many of whom are alts of out-of-highsec players, creating a 'wealth funnel' that makes WH, Null sec and low sec conflict aimed at cutting supply lines totally irrelevant).
If your issue is that nullsec players can make ISK via highsec alts (or, transversely, that highsec players can make ISK via nullsec carrier ratting alts in, say, CFC in Deklein) then you should be looking to address the alt system.
If your issue is that highsec Incursions are too lucrative in your opinion, you should be looking to address the Incursion system. (For what it's worth, looking through a couple week's worth of Vindicator losses on zKill I see a number of highsec losses of such ships worth close to 2 billion each, some in NPC corps, many in player corps, so it's not an endeavor without risk, regardless of what type of corp the pilot is in.)
Quote:Station trading doesn't produce new isk or materials, in space activities do. NPC corp members get to do this with reduced risk and negligible cost (11% tax and inability to place structures). people don't need to be forced out of npc corps, Veterans using npc corps as a refuge should face higher costs for the protection.
The risk of station trading is other station traders.
Wouldn't it then follow that the risk of NPC characters is... other NPC characters? If simple competition between station traders who effectively cannot be wardeced means station trading is balanced, it seems that competition between NPC corp characters means being in an NPC corp is balanced as well. I'm reminded of a post many pages ago where somebody complained about being out-competed for asteroids, so because he couldn't hack it he wanted to shoot people. If he had been outcompeted in the marketplace, I wonder if he would have been calling for the ability to wardec and shoot traders as well... If you then think that there's too much ISK to be made in highsec for competition to be a factor, then I think you need to be looking at discussing with CCP the balance of ISK availability in the game.
Anyway, I don't see why it matters where the ISK comes from, whether the ISK springs out of CCP programed spawns, or from transaction with another player, or from picking up a freighter's loot after a gank. And what's the difference between a new player highsec mining in a Retriever and a veteran player highsec mining in a Retriever? Same for running L4 missions, which new players can do via a BS somewhat soon after joining if that's what they focus on. Your only complaint that I have some sympathy with is in regards to Incursion running, but I'm quite unfamiliar with that aspect of EVE so won't discuss.
Really, the only two objections to NPC corps I see often are:
a) "I want to shoot them in highsec but I cant," and
b) Incursion runners (or miners, or whomever) make too much ISK for the lack of risk of being shot by other players.
For a) I say HTFU and come to low/null. There's plenty of us NPC types there for folks to shoot. For b) I say start a thread discussing Incursions or mining or general ISK-making opportunities in highsec.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6294
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 23:49:50 -
[1640] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:You simply don't have a drop of decency in you, and nothing we say about this game is going to change that. I told yo why 2 of my friends who just came back to the game left my corp. You think I need to lie to some nobody on a forum? None of this stuff is real man. If you think that, you really should step back from this game and forum and think about things. Lol, one of us certainly does need to take a step back. Seriously guy, don't take it so seriously. So your corp falls apart under a wardec just like the many carebears you like to talk down to. It's no big deal. It certainly does seem like the opinion of "some nobody on a forum" is very important to you or you wouldn't be doing full on damage control, so yes, I think you'd lie. But still, chill out.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13376
|
Posted - 2015.06.09 23:55:13 -
[1641] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:So your corp falls apart under a wardec just like the many carebears you like to talk down to.
Ignore the rebuttal, repeat the lie and hope it sticks. Reminds me of one of the most left-wing of my old college professors. I bet you'll vote for Hilary, too.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11317
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 00:22:53 -
[1642] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:So your corp falls apart under a wardec just like the many carebears you like to talk down to.
Ignore the rebuttal, repeat the lie and hope it sticks. Reminds me of one of the most left-wing of my old college professors. I bet you'll vote for Hilary, too.
Seems more a Bernie type |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11317
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 00:28:53 -
[1643] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:You simply don't have a drop of decency in you, and nothing we say about this game is going to change that. I told yo why 2 of my friends who just came back to the game left my corp. You think I need to lie to some nobody on a forum? None of this stuff is real man. If you think that, you really should step back from this game and forum and think about things. Lol, one of us certainly does need to take a step back. Seriously guy, don't take it so seriously. So your corp falls apart under a wardec just like the many carebears you like to talk down to. It's no big deal. It certainly does seem like the opinion of "some nobody on a forum" is very important to you or you wouldn't be doing full on damage control, so yes, I think you'd lie. But still, chill out.
It doesn't really matter that's true, it's just funny to image a person sitting behind a computer knowing he's trolling (because honestly, we both know that despite your obvious issues you're not really stupid, simply emotional over another poster telling you something uncomfortable).
After this last bit you have my word that I'll leave this alone even though we now you won't (because you think you have a wedge over someone who hurt your feelings, when what you should have done is wonder why your feelings are exposed over a forum lol). I listened to your CSM interviews, you could actually contribute something if you could get past your issues. Your problem is your ideological bent, not your intelligence.
Feel free to continue, I'll simply say good luck bro. |
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
550
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 00:37:49 -
[1644] - Quote
Quote:7. Discussion of real life religion and politics is prohibited.
Discussion of real life religion and politics is strictly prohibited on the EVE Online forums. Discussions of this nature often creates animosity between forum users due to real life political or military conflicts. CCP promotes the growth of a gaming community where equality is at the forefront. Nationalist, religious or political affiliations are not part of EVE Online, and should not be part of discussion on the EVE Online forums.
I have removed a post and one quoting it. Please keep real life politics and religion off of our discussion boards.
ISD Decoy
Commander
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Kaarous Aldurald
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec
CODE.
13378
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 00:39:58 -
[1645] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote: I listened to your CSM interviews, you could actually contribute something if you could get past your issues.
Between the military and the financial industry before that, I've dealt with enough intellectually dishonest people to know irredeemable when I see it.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
880
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 01:50:46 -
[1646] - Quote
Why do players stay in NPC corps?
Play time constraint/real life issues
For fun
You trust no one in-game
You trust everyone in-game
You're very social in-game
You're anti-social in-game
You like to role-play
A break from 0.0/CTA's
A break from lo sec
A break from lunch break
You're comfortable in an NPC corp. No appeal go go anywhere else.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
At the end of the day some will not like that you choose stay in an NPC corp. But it's your subscription, your play style. Don't worry about it. As long as you're playing by the rules you're good to go... Or in this case, good to stay.
Successfully doinitwrongGäó since 2006.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6295
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 07:07:19 -
[1647] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:we both know that despite your obvious issues you're not really stupid, simply emotional over another poster telling you something uncomfortable).
Jenn aSide wrote:because you think you have a wedge over someone who hurt your feelings
Jenn aSide wrote:if you could get past your issues. Your problem is your ideological bent, not your intelligence. You realise that you are the one constantly insulting and attacking me, claiming I have issues and I'm a carebear and a whole host of other colourful terms, right? The truth is I have no feelings about this game neither do I have any feelings about your existence, I simply find it entertaining when people decide to target me for their unrelenting feelings of hatred. I have no "issues" as you say, you're simply projecting whatever problem it is you've got against me, as you always have. Obviously, like Kaarous, I've said something or done something at some point in the distant past that has made you decide that I'm a horrible horrible person, that's obvious from your response to anything I post being hostile and insulting, regardless of what or where I post. Whatever issues exist here, they are yours. I doubt you shall ever see me getting emotional over either a game or posting on the internet.
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Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Ima GoodGirl
Black Ballers
13
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 07:17:07 -
[1648] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Blah about what a good job NPC Corps are doing and how bad player corps are. If this were true, there wouldn't be recent quotes from CCP around like this: CCP Bettik wrote:...we are teaching people that it's safer in an NPC corporation than a player corporation. We know that it is better for them to join a player corporation, ... CCP Punkturis wrote:For many players, their optimal choice is therefore to avoid signing up to a corp altogether, and so they inevitably miss out on many of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique. CCP Rise wrote:...We have this other small group of 5-10% that do move into a really wide range of experiences. They move into you know...they're trading with other players a lot, they're in corps much more often, they're talking in fleet chats more often and they're on pvp kills more often. And these people tend to stick with us... There are a lot more examples. There's nothing inherently wrong with NPC Corps. For some players they are perfect. But there is no comparison between the social environment created by the players in a player Corp and the near non-existent social environment in almost all of the NPC Corps. To try to suggest that " Even those that don't often create content in NPC corps still regularly contribute to the social environment of the corp just by taking part in the activities that the Corp runs." is laughable for how easy it is to prove wrong. 100% of us in the game have experience in NPC Corps. We all know how little there is in the way of corp activities in them. It could all be there, but for nearly all of them, it isn't; and it would be fine if everyone could just join CAS, but they can't. Anyone not out already creating content or being social in other ways could take steps themselves to change that. But whinging in the forum about how player Corps are fail is just the easier option.
Your just making quotes up. Stop inventing prove for your fail points.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6295
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 07:27:53 -
[1649] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:There are a lot more examples. There's nothing inherently wrong with NPC Corps. For some players they are perfect. But there is no comparison between the social environment created by the players in a player Corp and the near non-existent social environment in almost all of the NPC Corps. I don't disagree with this, but the answer doesn't lie in kicking NPC corp players in the nuts. Players need to want to move out, not to be forced out.
Scipio Artelius wrote:Anyone not out already creating content or being social in other ways could take steps themselves to change that. But whinging in the forum about how player Corps are fail is just the easier option. It's easier said that done though. The problem is that social tools do not exist (yet) so getting people from NPC corps on board with doing something they wouldn't necessarily do on a normal day is quite difficult. Player corps obviously do have their problems too though. Its impossible to create a sizable highsec corp that operates without the heavy use of NPC alts where the primary focus isn't PvP. It's quite sad that is the case, but it's true. It's why groups like red frog only use their corp as a contract pool and do everything else with NPC characters. Personally I think the mechanics around wardecs need to be completely revamped so that non-PvP corporations are more viable and not instantly the prime targets, and I think that we need the social tools discussed in the other thread to overlay both player and NPC corp affiliation to give a better way for people to group up and play cooperatively without fully committing.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23903
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 07:59:41 -
[1650] - Quote
Ima GoodGirl wrote:Your just making quotes up. Stop inventing prove for your fail points. Actually he's not. CCP staff actually said those things, it is you that is making stuff up.
CCP Bettik wrote:...we are teaching people that it's safer in an NPC corporation than a player corporation. We know that it is better for them to join a player corporation, ... Page 81 CSM 9 Summer minutes
CCP Punkturis wrote:For many players, their optimal choice is therefore to avoid signing up to a corp altogether, and so they inevitably miss out on many of the meaningful social interactions that make EVE unique. Corp little things and friendly fire toggle dev blog
CCP Rise wrote:...We have this other small group of 5-10% that do move into a really wide range of experiences. They move into you know...they're trading with other players a lot, they're in corps much more often, they're talking in fleet chats more often and they're on pvp kills more often. And these people tend to stick with us... Fanfest 2014 NPE vision presentation
Now apologise to the man for calling him a liar when he was in fact quite truthful.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
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Nevil Oscillator
203
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 09:41:47 -
[1651] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Ima GoodGirl wrote:Your just making quotes up. Stop inventing prove for your fail points. Now apologise to the man for calling him a liar when he was in fact quite truthful.
It's just someone's trolling Alt having a laugh |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
276
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 11:02:02 -
[1652] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Now apologise to the man for calling him a liar when he was in fact quite truthful.
Jonah Gravenstein defending someone's honest character is like Bernie Madoff endorsing an investment product.
He's not being honest. He's being obtuse. We've already gone over two of those quotes. They don't say what he says they say.
If he wanted to be honest, he would have left that post unedited. It originally contained a statement by him essentially saying that his own words were "typical bullshit". I happened to agree with him on that point.
You're both liars. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23905
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 11:11:55 -
[1653] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Now apologise to the man for calling him a liar when he was in fact quite truthful. Jonah Gravenstein defending someone's honest character is like Bernie Madoff endorsing an investment product. That's rich coming from you.
Quote:He's not being honest. He's being obtuse. We've already gone over two of those quotes. They don't say what he says they say. The interpretation of the meaning of the quotes is irrelevant; those quotes exist, so how is he not being honest?
Quote:If he wanted to be honest, he would have left that post unedited. It originally contained a statement by him essentially saying that his own words were "typical bullshit". I happened to agree with him on that point. You're the expert so I'll bow down to your superior knowledge of bullshit.
Yes, I'm a liar for presenting evidence that those quotes are correctly attributed to their authors and that they exist
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Nevil Oscillator
203
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Posted - 2015.06.10 11:29:01 -
[1654] - Quote
I pity anyone who has to read a 79 page thread full of personal bickering |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
276
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 12:00:26 -
[1655] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Yes, I'm a liar for presenting evidence that those quotes are correctly attributed to their authors and that they exist; and he's a liar for presenting those quotes in the first place
Those quotes exist.
Those people did say them.
He did present those quotes.
You are still liars.
Anything else? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
23909
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 12:16:48 -
[1656] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Those quotes exist.
Those people did say them.
He did present those quotes.
You are still liars.
Would you care to expand on the 4th statement; bearing in mind that in the context of this thread the first 3 statements prevent the 4th from being true.
Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business.
Nil mortifi sine lucre.
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37953
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 12:19:48 -
[1657] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Jonah Gravenstein defending someone's honest character is like Bernie Madoff endorsing an investment product.
He's not being honest. He's being obtuse. We've already gone over two of those quotes. They don't say what he says they say.
If he wanted to be honest, he would have left that post unedited. It originally contained a statement by him essentially saying that his own words were "typical bullshit". I happened to agree with him on that point.
You're both liars.
On no. I edited a post.
Quotes aren't lies. They're just quotes.
What did I say those quotes say, other than what they say?
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
11331
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 12:39:30 -
[1658] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Yes, I'm a liar for presenting evidence that those quotes are correctly attributed to their authors and that they exist; and he's a liar for presenting those quotes in the first place
Yes yall are liars, if Liar means "someone who presented evidence that drastically contradicts someones already (and usually foolishly) established world view, which tends to generate this niffy reaction.".
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LifeisagameCH Thellere
9
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Posted - 2015.06.10 13:04:33 -
[1659] - Quote
Wow take my quite some Time to Read (most of) all of That
Most of my Points are here Explained well more then enoth,
but one thing that Personaly holds me in NPC i dont Read:
- I Like to Help Noobs
Times where the new Player peaks was high, we had a lot of Questions to answer - with the Opportuneties and kick out of the AURA Tutrial there is defently more Work now too
Dont know why but i always enjoyed helping others, maybe it came from my Job as a GM in another Game
Defently never will meet that lot Noobs in a Player Corp
o7 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
276
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 13:09:39 -
[1660] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:the first 3 statements being true means that the 4th is a falsehood.
That sounds like a fun game. Let me know who wins.
Scipio Artellius wrote:Quotes aren't lies. They're just quotes.
Words aren't lies. Letters aren't lies. Numbers aren't lies. Ideas aren't lies. People aren't lies. Pixels on a screen aren't lies. Modulated sound waves aren't lies. Works of fiction aren't lies. Knives, spoons, and forks aren't lies. Acts of God aren't lies. Colors aren't lies . . . where are we going with this?
Jen aSide wrote:Yes yall are liars, if Liar means "someone who presented evidence
evidence
"Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion."
What are those quotes evidence of? What is the assertion they are presented to support? |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37967
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 15:28:19 -
[1661] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:There are a lot more examples. There's nothing inherently wrong with NPC Corps. For some players they are perfect. But there is no comparison between the social environment created by the players in a player Corp and the near non-existent social environment in almost all of the NPC Corps. I don't disagree with this, but the answer doesn't lie in kicking NPC corp players in the nuts. Players need to want to move out, not to be forced out.
I don't particularly think it lies in kicking NPC Corp players in the nuts either.
To me, the fact that all players start the game in NPC starter corps suggests that the best place to try to make things more social to begin with is in those 12 starter Corps (not the other NPC Corps. Players should very much take ownership of the lack of socialising in those Corps).
The structures really aren't there in the starter corps to help support social play in the same way that they are for the player Corps and it isn't clear to me why.
For example, see this image:
http://puu.sh/ijBwX/f722b29d8e.png
The left had side is the Corp chat of a starter Corp for an alt I rolled today. The right hand side is the Corp chat of one of my other characters.
The starter Corp has no indication of the number of Corp members online and doesn't even show anyone in the window until they type something. In a player Corp, all logged in members are visible to each other by default and the number of members is visible even from the channel tab at the top. I can see all the logged in members faces and names by default.
A new player gets the new player channel, but no indication outside that, that they belong to a large social group. No indication that there are other Corp members there to help them if they need.
I don't know why the starter Corp chat channel is setup so antisocially. It seems to me that if social interaction helps retention, then why not make the starter corp chat channel more like the player corp chat channel by default?
That's the sort of thing that is not about kicking anyone in the nuts, but about helping new players to actually discover that there is a Corporation they are a member of from the very second they start the game.
From there, it's really down to the players in the Corp to take action. As an experiment, I left that character logged in. An hour later, the chat channel was still blank. No posts. So I posted a quick hello and suddenly saw that there were 158 Corp members online (but still not who) and a few people posted back. Then that was it. It went quiet again.
I'd love to see if there would be any difference if the starter Corp chat channel showed everyone online and had an MOTD that veterans could volunteer to administer (like veteran players can volunteer for access to the new player channel).
To me, that would seem to be one way that veteran players still in the starter Corp could actually help foster a more social experience, right in the NPC corporation.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Nevil Oscillator
203
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 16:13:42 -
[1662] - Quote
Does it matter what CCP Rise said ? |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 16:35:20 -
[1663] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:For example, see this image: http://puu.sh/ijBwX/f722b29d8e.png
The left had side is the Corp chat of a starter Corp for an alt I rolled today. The right hand side is the Corp chat of one of my other characters. The starter Corp has no indication of the number of Corp members online and doesn't even show anyone in the window until they type something. In a player Corp, all logged in members are visible to each other by default and the number of members is visible even from the channel tab at the top. I can see all the logged in members faces and names by default. A new player gets the new player channel, but no indication outside that, that they belong to a large social group. No indication that there are other Corp members there to help them if they need. I don't know why the starter Corp chat channel is setup so antisocially. It seems to me that if social interaction helps retention, then why not make the starter corp chat channel more like the player corp chat channel?
That's really odd, and possibly a bug - whenever I log on, I see the online member count for CAS corp chat. It ranges from 200 to 800 online members depending on the time of day. If it's not a bug - I guess it's possible that the starter corp you joined had, for real, no online members? To test, I'd suggest biomassing this particular new character of yours, and create a new one in CAS.
And yes, starter corp's corp chat is configured for the delay membership display option, or whatever it's called. I just logged on and saw 444 CAS members online, although only those sending chats were showing up in the member list.
(Edit - I logged off then back on and it took a while this time - a couple minutes - for the online member count to display, but it eventually did. 420 online now. I guess the online count doesn't update until somebody, anybody, posts something. CAS corp chat is so active that it's rarely a long wait for that to happen.) |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
6297
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 16:54:14 -
[1664] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:There are a lot more examples. There's nothing inherently wrong with NPC Corps. For some players they are perfect. But there is no comparison between the social environment created by the players in a player Corp and the near non-existent social environment in almost all of the NPC Corps. I don't disagree with this, but the answer doesn't lie in kicking NPC corp players in the nuts. Players need to want to move out, not to be forced out. I don't particularly think it lies in kicking NPC Corp players in the nuts either. Players should kick each other in the nuts. Not mechanics. To me, the fact that all players start the game in NPC starter corps suggests that the best place to try to make things more social to begin with is in those 12 starter Corps (not the other NPC Corps. Players should very much take ownership of the lack of socialising in those Corps). The structures really aren't there in the starter corps to help support social play in the same way that they are for the player Corps and it isn't clear to me why. For example, see this image: http://puu.sh/ijBwX/f722b29d8e.png
The left had side is the Corp chat of a starter Corp for an alt I rolled today. The right hand side is the Corp chat of one of my other characters. The starter Corp has no indication of the number of Corp members online and doesn't even show anyone in the window until they type something. In a player Corp, all logged in members are visible to each other by default and the number of members is visible even from the channel tab at the top. I can see all the logged in members faces and names by default. A new player gets the new player channel, but no indication outside that, that they belong to a large social group. No indication that there are other Corp members there to help them if they need. I don't know why the starter Corp chat channel is setup so antisocially. It seems to me that if social interaction helps retention, then why not make the starter corp chat channel more like the player corp chat channel? That's the sort of thing that is not about kicking anyone in the nuts, but about helping new players to actually discover that there is a Corporation they are a member of from the very second they start the game. From there, it's really down to the players in the Corp to take action. As an experiment, I left that character logged in. An hour later, the chat channel was still blank. No posts. So I posted a quick hello and suddenly saw that there were 158 Corp members online (but still not who) and a few people posted back. Then that was it. It went quiet again. I'd love to see if there would be any difference if the starter Corp chat channel showed everyone online and had an MOTD that veterans could volunteer to administer (like veteran players can volunteer for access to the new player channel). To me, that would seem to be one way that veteran players still in the starter Corp could actually help foster a more social experience, right in the NPC corporation. Fully agree with the vast majority of that. The only bit I'd differ on is that changes are needed in some circumstances, such as the implementation of better social tools, though I suppose you agree to some changes as NPC corp chat would need to be changed. I'd love to see people's behaviour driving the social changes needed, but that isn't going to happen without a push.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
|
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
603
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 18:15:13 -
[1665] - Quote
The last post inspired me to an idea, what if in starter corps you get notifications about opportunity completions of other corp members (maybe aggregated to reduce spamming and limited to starter systems)? Get to know about things your fellow newbies are doing ...to break isolation from first second in game.
I'm my own NPC alt.
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xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
274
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 18:37:55 -
[1666] - Quote
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
At the end of the day some will not like that you choose to stay in an NPC corp. But it's your subscription, your play style. Don't worry about it. As long as you're playing by the rules you're good to go... Or in this case, good to stay.
it's so true and i can't understand why this thread is still going. people play as they want, they pay,, they want fun,, when the funs not there they leave, sometimes a corp, sometimes the game. i've said it a few times in this silly thread now.
why do players stay in NPC corps?
because they can.
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Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services
CAStabouts
251
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 20:34:22 -
[1667] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:There are a lot more examples. There's nothing inherently wrong with NPC Corps. For some players they are perfect. But there is no comparison between the social environment created by the players in a player Corp and the near non-existent social environment in almost all of the NPC Corps. I don't disagree with this, but the answer doesn't lie in kicking NPC corp players in the nuts. Players need to want to move out, not to be forced out. I don't particularly think it lies in kicking NPC Corp players in the nuts either. Players should kick each other in the nuts. Not mechanics. To me, the fact that all players start the game in NPC starter corps suggests that the best place to try to make things more social to begin with is in those 12 starter Corps (not the other NPC Corps. Players should very much take ownership of the lack of socialising in those Corps). The structures really aren't there in the starter corps to help support social play in the same way that they are for the player Corps and it isn't clear to me why. For example, see this image: http://puu.sh/ijBwX/f722b29d8e.png
The left had side is the Corp chat of a starter Corp for an alt I rolled today. The right hand side is the Corp chat of one of my other characters. The starter Corp has no indication of the number of Corp members online and doesn't even show anyone in the window until they type something. In a player Corp, all logged in members are visible to each other by default and the number of members is visible even from the channel tab at the top. I can see all the logged in members faces and names by default. A new player gets the new player channel, but no indication outside that, that they belong to a large social group. No indication that there are other Corp members there to help them if they need. I don't know why the starter Corp chat channel is setup so antisocially. It seems to me that if social interaction helps retention, then why not make the starter corp chat channel more like the player corp chat channel? That's the sort of thing that is not about kicking anyone in the nuts, but about helping new players to actually discover that there is a Corporation they are a member of from the very second they start the game. From there, it's really down to the players in the Corp to take action. As an experiment, I left that character logged in. An hour later, the chat channel was still blank. No posts. So I posted a quick hello and suddenly saw that there were 158 Corp members online (but still not who) and a few people posted back. Then that was it. It went quiet again. I'd love to see if there would be any difference if the starter Corp chat channel showed everyone online and had an MOTD that veterans could volunteer to administer (like veteran players can volunteer for access to the new player channel). To me, that would seem to be one way that veteran players still in the starter Corp could actually help foster a more social experience, right in the NPC corporation.
Try typing something next time, pop comes right up.
The reason your PC count comes right up is becuase of the MOTD. It's considered to be a post. If you took down the MOTD, you wouldnt get a member count until you or someone posted in PC chat either. So...nothing special going on here. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
37984
|
Posted - 2015.06.10 21:18:28 -
[1668] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:Try typing something next time, pop comes right up.
The reason your PC count comes right up is becuase of the MOTD. It's considered to be a post. If you took down the MOTD, you wouldnt get a member count until you or someone posted in PC chat either. So...nothing special going on here.
Yes the count (not full list of online members though) will come right up if I type (I did type, it's in the post but it's a long post so easy to miss).
Is that a behaviour you would expect a new player to know? And why delayed corp chat in NPC Corps anyway?
It's less social right form the start. That's not the only difference between NPC Corp vs Player Corp as far as the available mechanics assisting/discouraging social interaction. I'll drop them all into F&I rather than GD.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Ursula Thrace
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
353
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 00:00:15 -
[1669] - Quote
Shailagh wrote:I believe people stay in npc corps (and therefor quit more often) to evade wars.
this...and just laziness.
eve online original intro
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Vex Aubaris
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 08:55:28 -
[1670] - Quote
Tipa Riot wrote:The last post inspired me to an idea, what if in starter corps you get notifications about opportunity completions of other corp members (maybe aggregated to reduce spamming and limited to starter systems)? Get to know about things your fellow newbies are doing ...to break isolation from first second in game.
Christ no. Can you imagine it? That was one of the worst things about being in a guild in WoW.
Noscopez 4lyfe has looked at his ship!
"gz"
"grats dude"
lowercase First Initial has locked a target!
"gz"
"gz!"
Eve Injoke McPrimary has orbited an asteroid!
"grats m8"
"Guys im new, how do i into space?"
"wd"
Cyberminx69 has docked at a station!
"gz"
"grats!"
"gz"
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Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services
CAStabouts
252
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 09:16:04 -
[1671] - Quote
Vex Aubaris wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:The last post inspired me to an idea, what if in starter corps you get notifications about opportunity completions of other corp members (maybe aggregated to reduce spamming and limited to starter systems)? Get to know about things your fellow newbies are doing ...to break isolation from first second in game. Christ no. Can you imagine it? That was one of the worst things about being in a guild in WoW.
Noscopez 4lyfe has looked at his ship!"gz" "grats dude" lowercase First Initial has locked a target!"gz" "gz!" Eve Injoke McPrimary has orbited an asteroid!"grats m8" "Guys im new, how do i into space?" "wd" Cyberminx69 has docked at a station!"gz" "grats!" "gz"
Wurm much?
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
276
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 09:25:48 -
[1672] - Quote
Vex Aubaris wrote:Tipa Riot wrote:The last post inspired me to an idea, what if in starter corps you get notifications about opportunity completions of other corp members (maybe aggregated to reduce spamming and limited to starter systems)? Get to know about things your fellow newbies are doing ...to break isolation from first second in game. Christ no. Can you imagine it? That was one of the worst things about being in a guild in WoW.
Noscopez 4lyfe has looked at his ship!"gz" "grats dude" lowercase First Initial has locked a target!"gz" "gz!" Eve Injoke McPrimary has orbited an asteroid!"grats m8" "Guys im new, how do i into space?" "wd" Cyberminx69 has docked at a station!"gz" "grats!" "gz"
Mayhaw Morgan has disabled Corporation Member Achievements notifications
"ahhh, much better"
"you can do that?"
"-+-+-Å -ü-¦-ü-é-Ç-¦ -¦-+-Ç-+-¦-+"
"Mayhew how do I shut those off?"
"Is bestiality legal in Canada?"
. . . or something like that.
You can already see corp members kill and lossmails. It's quite a useful feature, honestly, both in explaining to noobs what can/did happen to them and just as fodder for conversation. |
Nevil Oscillator
203
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 10:10:11 -
[1673] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
You can already see corp members kill and lossmails. It's quite a useful feature, honestly, both in explaining to noobs what can/did happen to them and just as fodder for conversation.
I already know what I didn't do ..
Get out alive |
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
5800
|
Posted - 2015.06.11 11:44:18 -
[1674] - Quote
Quote:Forum rules5. Trolling is prohibited.Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. 23. Post constructively.Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. 27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
Thread closed.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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