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Ituralde
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.05 15:51:00 -
[91]
Ah, of course, let me clarify, hauling sludge for the Caldri State is surely indeed a true service and furthers their goals, and I am sure you get paid quite well for it. The point remains that you are still accepting them as your masters by blindly swearing loyalty to them and are thus nothing but one of their little pet dogs they can order around. I am quite sure that you and your nationalist ilk would happily charge into battle were you so ordered by the state and would even take pride in your pointless death simply because someone in the Navy told you to. Unless, of course, you say you would refuse an order by the Navy if they called for you to assist them? Do you see now how blind loyalty inherrently destroys your personal freedoms?
Well, I won't fool myself. I am quite aware that such simple logic does not easily make its way into the square heads of the Loyalist extreme. So, I will speak in terms you can understand.
Jericho Fraction has and continues to stand up to the most powerful organizations in the galaxy. If you honestly think a hauler pilot telling us to bug off is going to make any sort of difference whatsoever in our resolve, then you are seriously mistaken.
Fear is the mind-killer. |
Vaslav Tchitcherine
Jericho Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.05 16:16:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Shanaya Venn
But the Truth is like a box. It has many sides.
My side is just as valid and true as yours. So bug off.
Ah, the razor insight of the tautological argument. I had heard that they don't teach logic in Caldari schools -- counterproductive, or some such nonsense -- but I had always dismissed it as arch-Federalist propaganda.
Originally by: Shanaya Venn
Bringing forceful enlightenment to the benighted, are we?
People keep getting this wrong. I almost think it's wilful.
We don't bring enlightenment to the benighted. We kill those who deliberately and wilfully obstruct the freedom of others.
Originally by: Shanaya Venn
(Random thought: Ideologues make me wanna puke. Especially the stateless kind, who embrace glorified anarchy as their raison d'etre.)
Strong words.
v.
jf | won't somebody think of the pandas?
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Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
Gilead's Bullet
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.05 16:18:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
I know its going to be near on impossible for you to see at this point currently Nikolai. I expect this. Its always the way. But I have faith that in time you'll come to see things differently.
Is this an admission that you're obviously wrong, seeing as you have no actual response to me other than to call me names like brainwashed and blind?
I'd like you to state it loudly and clearly for the cameras, please.
--------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans
Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
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Ituralde
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.05 16:55:00 -
[94]
Myself, I thought it was just an ackgnowledgement that talking logic to you will really get nowhere seeing as how your understanding of logic is far to tainted by your tender embrace(in the gallente sense of the term) of the State's hindquarters to be at all construed as sense. But alas, as Jasmine said, there is hope for everyone.
Fear is the mind-killer. |
Beringe
Raptus Regaliter
|
Posted - 2006.10.05 21:10:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Vaslav Tchitcherine
We don't bring enlightenment to the benighted. We kill those who deliberately and wilfully obstruct the freedom of others.
Well, since JF has stated several times in this thread that they will bring the system down, despite people's wishes, does that not mean you are taking away their freedom of choice?
Ergo, should you not kill yourselves?
Seriously, everyone obstructs freedom, in one way or another. A child being reared has its freedom taken away. Freedom to murder, steal and destroy is generally limited by society, yes? And don't give me that "its okay as long as noone is harmed" crap, either. That's just a matter of perspective.
Just more contradictive rethoric. You don't "stand up to the most powerful organizations in the galaxy". You, like most individuals who wish to cram their point of view down other's throats, are simply picking on those who are smaller than you are.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Nikolai Nuvolari
Caldari
Gilead's Bullet
Kimotoro Directive
|
Posted - 2006.10.05 21:22:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Ituralde
Myself, I thought it was just an ackgnowledgement that talking logic to you will really get nowhere [...]
Disappointing to see that the mighty intellectuals of Star Fraction are too scared to actually find out by listening to me.
But that's alright, when you're not scared of a discussion anymore, you can contact us any tome.
Nuvolari out.
--------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans
Nik = win. Period.
Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw
Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
|
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.05 21:35:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
Disappointing to see that the mighty intellectuals of Star Fraction are too scared to actually find out by listening to me. But that's alright, when you're not scared of a discussion anymore, you can contact us any tome. Nuvolari out.
What discussion Nikolai? You simply asserted that we were brainwashed drones of Jade, while I certainly believe you a brainwashed drone of the State? Not much room for the finer points of debate and rhetoric there really. There comes a time when persuasion with words must give way to persuasion with firepower and martial courage. We are immortals Nikolai, we never really die, and our reincarnations are nothing much more than the punctionation marks at the end of a particularly pertinent point.
Scared of discussion in general? No. Aware that discussion with you is pointless. Yes. We don't even speak the same language you and I.
_________________
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.05 21:36:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Beringe
Just more contradictive rethoric. You don't "stand up to the most powerful organizations in the galaxy". You, like most individuals who wish to cram their point of view down other's throats, are simply picking on those who are smaller than you are.
History is your friend.
_________________
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Beringe
Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.10.05 22:02:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
History is your friend.
I remember a time when Jericho fought for a free society in the north, making themselves a shining beacon of human potential against those who would rather isolate themselves and make isk. I remember being a little worried that some of the more fanatical idealism might bring them to dark places, but took solace in the fact that they all seemed to have their heads screwed on right.
I remember when I was in the JQA senate and we were getting flak from JF for our insular nature. It never came to blows, because JF was, back then, inheritly reasonable, and never saw us as a major threat. Sadly, we were never able to open our borders, and now that alliance is gone.
Is that the history you're talking about?
I don't ever recall Jericho Fraction fighting someone that could seriously hurt them. After all, you are nomadic now, aren't you? With nothing to defend, nothing to lose. We've certainly heard enough about how little it means for a pod-pilot to be killed (and damn the crew on board).
The most noble thing you've probably done since the old days is when you fought alongside Ushra'Khan agains the CVA. I don't care to say if you fought on the side of right, but at least you had allied yourself with those who had something to lose.
Perhaps that was the history you were talking about?
Please, enlighten me on what sort of standing up you are talking about. And Gal-Net doesn't count.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.05 22:12:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Beringe
I remember when I was in the JQA senate and we were getting flak from JF for our insular nature. It never came to blows, because JF was, back then, inheritly reasonable, and never saw us as a major threat. Sadly, we were never able to open our borders, and now that alliance is gone.
Familiar story that. "We wanted to open our borders but we never could." If I had a million isk for every time I'd heard that one I'd be very rich indeed. Its the primal excuse, the very definition of minds enslaved by the imperialist dogma exported from the core systems. If you'd wanted to do this thing and had the courage to do it you would have done it. Instead you didn't dare to dream and you failed anyway. Yet still here you are chiding us for taking the steps neccessary to challenge the stasis quo and unendurable treachery against humanities potential.
Quote:
I don't ever recall Jericho Fraction fighting someone that could seriously hurt them. After all, you are nomadic now, aren't you? With nothing to defend, nothing to lose. We've certainly heard enough about how little it means for a pod-pilot to be killed (and damn the crew on board).
Ever wondered why none of our enemies could seriously hurt us Beringe? Maybe just maybe its because we are living the ideals we espouse. We claim no space, we bar no transit, we don't build the fences and dogmatic enclosures in the frontier. We fight the reactionary relics of ages past given malformed birth in the present by twisted memetics. For you to call us on having no place to defend is to show nothing more than the absence of understanding for anything we've ever said.
_________________
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Beringe
Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.10.05 22:30:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Familiar story that. "We wanted to open our borders but we never could." If I had a million isk for every time I'd heard that one I'd be very rich indeed. Its the primal excuse, the very definition of minds enslaved by the imperialist dogma exported from the core systems. If you'd wanted to do this thing and had the courage to do it you would have done it. Instead you didn't dare to dream and you failed anyway. Yet still here you are chiding us for taking the steps neccessary to challenge the stasis quo and unendurable treachery against humanities potential.
Yes indeed. And if you wanted to knock me off any percieved high ground, that's the way to do it. I don't have any rebuttal for that.
Who am I to question you? I'm nobody. I can only hope you see some value in my words and warnings, for I am not your complete antithesis.
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Ever wondered why none of our enemies could seriously hurt us Beringe? Maybe just maybe its because we are living the ideals we espouse. We claim no space, we bar no transit, we don't build the fences and dogmatic enclosures in the frontier. We fight the reactionary relics of ages past given malformed birth in the present by twisted memetics. For you to call us on having no place to defend is to show nothing more than the absence of understanding for anything we've ever said.
You build nothing, either. No stations or orbiting harvesters. No homes, no homeland.
You're so far removed from those you seek to free that you no longer understand them! No longer understand what then want...or what they need.
I may be guilty of doing nothing (in fact, I'm guilty of far worse things than that, as I'm sure you suspect). But what I'm hearing from the Fraction now is bordering on madness. The progression from your past to your present is quite alarming from my perspective.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.05 22:53:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Beringe
You build nothing, either. No stations or orbiting harvesters. No homes, no homeland. You're so far removed from those you seek to free that you no longer understand them! No longer understand what then want...or what they need.
We build ships Beringe. Members of the Star Fraction movement are not called "free captains" for show. The starship is the symbol and actuality of freedom. Anyone in the planetary populations currently suffering under the yoke of failed imperialist systems and administrative corruption need only turn their eyes skywards to see the future. Its out there for the taking, freedom to be won, but a vast and violent renewal of the human spirit is required. We know that the systems of territorial control and imperial xenophobia don't work. They don't serve the interests of human potential. How else could the Empire hold billions enslaved by chain and drug, or the State crush the spirit of its own sons and daughters?
Quote:
I may be guilty of doing nothing (in fact, I'm guilty of far worse things than that, as I'm sure you suspect). But what I'm hearing from the Fraction now is bordering on madness. The progression from your past to your present is quite alarming from my perspective.
Your conscience is your own affair Beringe. Many fractionists have a colourful past and have come from nbsi organisations. But what you categorise as madness is hope and a daring facility to dream of a better future. Perhaps we are mad to start out on this road for most hands are turned against us and even if we are successful our names will doubtless live in infamy in the records of fallen tyrants. But there is a fine line between madness and inspiration and its better to try to break the stasis strangling our future than meekly accept it.
_________________
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.06 00:36:00 -
[103]
These things always bring people out of the woodwork to argue that things are fine just the way they are. Attempts are made to either blow off what's being said as naive, to argue with extreme eruditeness (hint: when I was in Jericho Fraction, I painted the names of people who said "ergo" on rounds of barrage ammunition) against what was said, or to argue that the Star Fraction really are just a bunch of terrorists that want to see everyone burn.
Thing is, those things never end up working. They never have, so it's really just primo futility to keep trying them. Instead, why not try and show that you're right and they're wrong.
No, not by arguing some more. C'mon, how many people do you really think read all the arguments. Seriously.
By actually proving that the system you're defending works.
Take this argument against the State. Some big, nasty things have been said about the Beloved State, and its Beloved Megacorporations. You can travel to quite a few areas (say, Mito, since it's in the news lately) and see that things aren't well in hand. So, make the system work. Think of it as a challenge. Pick an area, doesn't have to be big, that needs improvement, and work within the State system to clean it up. Do that, and you'll have the gratitude of millions. You'll have the admiration of all your fellow Citizens. And you'll have something you can wave around to people like the Star Fraction. Something you can use to prove that things would be better if they just moved along.
'Cos, what's the alternative? Making more JF pilots paint your name on rounds of barrage ammo?
The Red Mom of WarÖ
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Beringe
Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2006.10.06 03:41:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi
(hint: when I was in Jericho Fraction, I painted the names of people who said "ergo" on rounds of barrage ammunition)
Hah
Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi
to argue that the Star Fraction really are just a bunch of terrorists that want to see everyone burn.
I honestly really don't think so, or I wouldn't bother arguing.
Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi
Thing is, those things never end up working. They never have, so it's really just primo futility to keep trying them. Instead, why not try and show that you're right and they're wrong.
You're right. Just arguing is futile, and cowardly, and counterproductive.
That's why I'm in the business of trying to create, not exactly utopias, but better worlds - out there, in lawless space. Not with much success so far, but perhaps one day.
Happily, my corporation's alliance record is not public, so you can't scoff at my failures. But we're not done yet.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Edward Sarum
|
Posted - 2006.10.07 00:10:00 -
[105]
The sacred texts tell us you shall know if the words are a prophet are true by if a prophecy comes to pass. My first prophecy has come to pass...
Originally by: Edward Sarum
WOW, I thought the Minmatar had the sole rights to blaintly obvious and poorly concieved notions. Sorry but the Star Fraction response read like Minmatatr just replace State with Empire.
To the people of the Star Fractions, let me say your motivations are fairly obvious. I perdict a war dec by SF in the Mito Constellation within the next 96 hours. They will spin it as freeing the constellation while they will in fact limit traffic through the area and pretty much attack everything but their allies on sight.
I am curious however how much UK charged to train your people to use this type of propoganda and poorly concieved covert manuvering?
Know therefore that my other words are true as well. Star Fraction no longer can fool the people of the cluster, God has revealed your darkness to the light. Know that ALL of your deeds will be known soon and that you have no secrets no matter what you believe. You are an open book to those that will open their mind and look, your noble sentiments hide the evil in your heart, but even those sentiments cannot hide the truth any longer, the Light of God will come.
===============================================
Edward Sarum
"God and Empire are all we need..." |
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.08 23:10:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Edward Sarum
Know therefore that my other words are true as well. Star Fraction no longer can fool the people of the cluster, God has revealed your darkness to the light. Know that ALL of your deeds will be known soon and that you have no secrets no matter what you believe. You are an open book to those that will open their mind and look, your noble sentiments hide the evil in your heart, but even those sentiments cannot hide the truth any longer, the Light of God will come.
What is any revolutionary movement if it doesn't have a few religious nutters to doomsay the consequences? Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains.
_________________
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Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.09 02:25:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains.
I have a secret. You can kill us all day long and there will we still be. You simply can't kill us, and you can't stop us, and you can't make us turn from the State. Oh, the cat's out of the bag now.
Have a nice day. :)
|
Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 02:40:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains.
I have a secret. You can kill us all day long and there will we still be. You simply can't kill us, and you can't stop us, and you can't make us turn from the State. Oh, the cat's out of the bag now.
Have a nice day. :)
So your strategy is ... keep dying and claim the moral high ground? How very transcendent of you.
_________________
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Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 02:52:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Originally by: Karl Mattar
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine
Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains.
I have a secret. You can kill us all day long and there will we still be. You simply can't kill us, and you can't stop us, and you can't make us turn from the State. Oh, the cat's out of the bag now.
Have a nice day. :)
So your strategy is ... keep dying and claim the moral high ground? How very transcendent of you.
Why thank you.
And it's not moral high ground I'm claiming. It's victory.
You can't win. You lost all credibility when you paid Concord to allow you to commit to a war.
If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval.
The moment you kow-towed to Concord you lost.
|
Karl Mattar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 03:28:00 -
[110]
No.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2006.10.09 03:28:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval.
Or... they could lose all their ships in high-sec because the amount of firepower put on them would obliterate battleships in seconds. On the contrary, I think the very fact that they were able to bribe CONCORD proves at least one of their crazy posthumanist points.
No?
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 03:30:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval. The moment you kow-towed to Concord you lost.
I see so what you are saying is that its impossible (in your eyes) for us to ever attack you since if we bribe concord to look the other way that means we've failed before we begin?
I'm wondering if we've got the right targets to be honest. You are sounding more like an obscure pacifist religious cult rather than a Caldari State Militia.
_________________
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Ituralde
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.09 03:33:00 -
[113]
I wonder if the entire Caldari Navy maintains such an interesting policy. Hide and insult from a safe distance. What a spectacular way to win a war.
Let me let you in on a little secret.
Sit in a station all you like, enjoy your gallente-style pleasures (I don't mean that Dominix, either) and see how effective you are as a support for the Caldari state. Guess what, we don't ever have to leave. Maybe you did not read the memo, but we fully intend to remove you as an effective organization. If you are content to sit uselessly in a station constantly, then I guess you can call this a victory for yourself too.
I sure hope APEX's arrival strengthens your resolve. Else, I hope for the Navy's sake that they never have to call on their Independent Navy Reserve.
And you don't like that we paid off Concord? Does that mean that it would take a full Concord Battlefleet as escort for you to risk combat? Amazing, given that you insult us for not giving you even odds in every engagement. You really are an utter hypocrite and a fool.
Unless you of course mean that you would otherwise enter Low Security space - which is laughable given the amount of trouble we have getting any of you to undock - Even your Carrier - in the first place.
Fear is the mind-killer. |
Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
The Black Rabbits
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 03:37:00 -
[114]
Damn, that was fast Karl. We'll have to agree to disagree.
By the way, if you couldn't see it coming already, the point I was going to make is that if they can be bribed, CONCORD really doesn't give a crap about you or your alliance.
But then you're gonna say, "oh, but we don't need CONCORD." I'm sure the liberals are going to love that.
|
Father Abel
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
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Posted - 2006.10.09 04:38:00 -
[115]
Quote:
But then you're gonna say, "oh, but we don't need CONCORD." I'm sure the liberals are going to love that.
Concord can be quite a nuisance. Consider our first engagement with the Black Rabbits, for instance. Concord penalized our security rating and had the sentries turn on us, even though it is clearly lawful to attack Guristas at any time, anywhere. If the Rabbits truly are a subsidiary of the Guristas, then this should not have been an issue. And the control tower at the Otsasai CNAP was sleeping on the job, too. They allowed Guristas to dock and maintenance their ships inside the hangar.
Don't you just hate bureaucratic snafus? 
_____________________
Father Abel - Lieutenant
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Kimotoro Directive
"Private property makes a free man a free man." |
Logan Xerxes
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 11:54:00 -
[116]
The State and the the Kimotoro Directive have my full backing in this affair. Unfortunately, I am currently out in the boder worlds gaining combat expiriance and i'm unable to help the state directly. All for the good of many!
"Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion."
-Sun Tzu
It's all fun and games, until you feel the second hand on your shoulder... - Tirg |
Atandros
Gallente
Tabula Rasa Systems
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 12:33:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Karl Mattar
Why thank you.
And it's not moral high ground I'm claiming. It's victory.
...It is? Huddling in stations to hide from our guns? For an organization called the "Caldari Navy Independent Reserve"? Victory...?
Quote:
You can't win. You lost all credibility when you paid Concord to allow you to commit to a war.
If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval.
The moment you kow-towed to Concord you lost.
That would be true if we were slavishly committed to abstract virtues that had no relationship to reality. But our ideal is a vision: we wish to free the future from the chains of the past and rid humanity of the cancer of statism. And we are acting in the service of our ideal if we strive to bring it about.
One does not halt a juggernaut by throwing oneself in front of it in the name of some absurd and hazy principles. Remember, monsieur Mattar, that it is our goal above all else to halt or impede the juggernaut, and we thus use any means at our disposal to do so.
-------
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Sable Schroedinger
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2006.10.09 13:18:00 -
[118]
One does not need to Kill or Destroy you in order to defeat you. Yes you will cling to your ideals and history. Nothing will change with you.
However, humanity will see that they do not need to fear you and will see they have the choice to reach higher
--------------------------------------------
Nothing is as cruel as the righteousness of innocents |
Kilwen
|
Posted - 2006.10.10 17:29:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
One does not need to Kill or Destroy you in order to defeat you. Yes you will cling to your ideals and history. Nothing will change with you.
However, humanity will see that they do not need to fear you and will see they have the choice to reach higher
Humanity never needed to fear us, we seek to help those around us acheve THEIR dreams. Which differs from you, who seek to make those around you realize YOUR dreams, willingly or not. Would not the proper course of action be to show people the light of your dreams, not show yourselves as agressors to their beliefs, making people cling tighter to them?
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Beringe
Raptus Regaliter
|
Posted - 2006.10.10 17:55:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
However, humanity will see that they do not need to fear you and will see they have the choice to reach higher
Ah, wordgames. I loves those.
Don't you mean posthumanity?
Haha, I'm here all week.
-------------------------------------------
"Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
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