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The Star Fraction and Mito Constellation

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The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.03 20:42:00 - [1] The Star Fraction and Mito Constellation In several threads of late, questions have been asked of Star Fraction: some suggesting Guristas affiliation, as well as other questions regarding the mass transit of starships and war-materiel into the area of the Mito Constellation in Caldari State claimed space. The answers to these questions are quite simple: Star Fraction remains an organisation firmly committed to combating repressive authoritarian structures in states and empires just as firmly as the would-be empires of tyrannical movements inhabiting nullsec regions. It is not only the ever-venal alliances of the frontiers that are committing treason against the potential of humanity by their perpetuation of the territorial meme (the notion that human society needs exclusionary zones of habitation to survive and grow). This taint is sourced in the old empires, its corruption spreads like a festering wound to contaminate the frontier. The hard truth is that humanity shackled firmly to the surface of planets is no true humanity at all. Refusing the gift of stars and immortality, the tyrant meme impels those whoÆd restrict their fellowÆs movement and act as jailors of the imagination, kidnappers of conscience and murderers of the spirit. The Star Fraction has therefore moved to the Mito constellation to diminish the threats of would-be expansionists loyal to the State, recognizing also that the area is used by nullsec imperialists as a gateway from their activities in State-policed space. Any forces, organizations and individuals recognized as hostile to the liberation and advancement of humanity's potential as a spacefaring, self-sufficient and free species may be considered targets. The Star Fraction ideology is not a soft and lilting melody to ease the troubles of the heart. It is a siren song of strife and revolution. Mankind dwells in bondage and weÆd see it free. There is no act nor duty so arduous and harsh that weÆd turn aside from the righteous toil. No hierarchy will be spared. No nationalist conceit left unburned. "In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." Jericho Fraction
Azador Kavian Amarr Royal Knights of Khanid Order of the Khanid Crown	Posted - 2006.10.03 21:05:00 - [2] So I'm assuming the Jericho Fraction is declaring war on both Kimotoro (State Megacorporation) And the Black Rabbits, as they are a sub-corporation of the Guristas (Pirate Megacorporation) and both lay claim to Mito constellation, the only difference between the two being that KD does not fire upon innocent people. Correct me if I am wrong? -------- Venerate the almighty Khanid, for without him we are nothing!
Nisaka Sivos Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.03 21:32:00 - [3] Originally by: Azador Kavian So I'm assuming the Jericho Fraction is declaring war on both Kimotoro (State Megacorporation) And the Black Rabbits, as they are a sub-corporation of the Guristas (Pirate Megacorporation) and both lay claim to Mito constellation, the only difference between the two being that KD does not fire upon innocent people. Correct me if I am wrong? Correction: Kimotoro Directive is a paramilitary alliance of Caldari corporations. Unlike the original TKI, it is not a megacorp, as the member corporations are all independent. And I don't think the Black Rabbits are a division of the Guristas, but rather an allied organization. But you'd have to ask them to be sure. Nisaka Sivos Lieutenant, Gilead's Bullet Chief Administrator
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2006.10.03 21:33:00 - [4] you expect them to declare a war? maybe to jump on the anti-black rabbit bandwagon. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think.
Takitoo	Posted - 2006.10.03 22:53:00 - [5] Join JF ! Fight the Power !* Legal Disclaimer: By "the Power" we mean any entity JF can reasonably take on in a direct fight. Do not fight any of the big mean territory claiming alliances and assorted other corporations who we oppose with our ideas proclaimed loudly at every turn, but happen to have a NAP with. ___________________________ Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.03 22:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Takitoo By "the Power" we mean any entity JF can reasonably take on in a direct fight. Do not fight any of the big mean territory claiming alliances and assorted other corporations who we oppose with our ideas proclaimed loudly at every turn, but happen to have a NAP with. Because of course we've never fought a 0.0 alliance before and we've got absolutely bazzillions of NAPS with people Maybe you'd like to substantiate your accusations ? _________________
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.03 23:19:00 - [7] Check this out, please, Takitoo.
Aran Cole Minmatar Xerxes Enterprises Aegis Militia	Posted - 2006.10.03 23:35:00 - [8] Why do I have the feeling now that JF invited the KD and the Black Rabbits to their "tournament" so that JF could execute both sets of pilots while they were weak? _______________________
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2006.10.04 00:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Takitoo By "the Power" we mean any entity JF can reasonably take on in a direct fight. Do not fight any of the big mean territory claiming alliances and assorted other corporations who we oppose with our ideas proclaimed loudly at every turn, but happen to have a NAP with. Because of course we've never fought a 0.0 alliance before and we've got absolutely bazzillions of NAPS with people Maybe you'd like to substantiate your accusations ? BoB End of Statement. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think.
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 00:51:00 - [10] I guess the link I shared is for you too, then, Tomahawk.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 00:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Tomahawk Bliss Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Takitoo By "the Power" we mean any entity JF can reasonably take on in a direct fight. Do not fight any of the big mean territory claiming alliances and assorted other corporations who we oppose with our ideas proclaimed loudly at every turn, but happen to have a NAP with. Because of course we've never fought a 0.0 alliance before and we've got absolutely bazzillions of NAPS with people Maybe you'd like to substantiate your accusations ? BoB End of Statement. Reading previous posts is a good idea. Sometimes it avoids you getting egg on your face. _________________
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 07:34:00 - [12] Originally by: The Cosmopolite No nationalist conceit left unburned. Careful which fires you choose to light Jericho, some battles are more worthy than others. ____
Chai N'Dorr Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 10:59:00 - [13] C'mon my old friend, you used to be lighter of heart! There's no battle more worthy than a battle for humanities freedom. _ Short Story: Planetside
Vlada Milani Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.10.04 11:15:00 - [14] I think the Star Fraction has dangerously oversimplified the nature of the Caldari State by quantifying it as being part of the same evil. It can hardly be compared to the illegal proto-states of the frontier, nor should it be viewed as being very similar to the three other core star-nations either. The borders of the State are not closed off, nor do its naval vessels summarily fire upon neutral parties. Should it be desired it is not even difficult to attain amicable standings with the State to secure a stable and favorable business relationship, either. One cannot simply state that the Caldari are this one way. The State is akin to the mythical hydra, with as many heads as it has corporations. Each of these ôheadsö has its own unique culture, strategy and ways of operation. In additional to providing a varying texture of culture, this allows for considerable leeway, as well as support, in personal expressions in ways that benefit yourself, your corporation and even society at large. The Caldari State is hardly a repressive, stifling influence on human development. Politically too, the Caldari represent a variety of competing views that nevertheless co-exist in harmony. The three terms we use û Liberals, Patriots and Practicals û are a way of categorizing that wealth of opinion that exists within our citizenry. Neither simple nationalistic interest û the cause of great harm throughout human history û nor archaic spiritual directives, or even an inefficient democratic review of popular opinion guides our evolution, which is instead shaped by sound economical principles and strategy that adds value across the various strata of society. Precisely because of our competitive impulses, the resulting technological advancement and our constant societal review, the Caldari State is a likely engine for human development everywhere, rather than a force of regression.
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 12:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Vlada Milani I think the Star Fraction has dangerously oversimplified the nature of the Caldari State by quantifying it as being part of the same evil. It can hardly be compared to the illegal proto-states of the frontier, nor should it be viewed as being very similar to the three other core star-nations either. Beyond... beyond there is no law and hence no illegality. The State is worse by far in the degree to which it succeeds in its statist project of control and repression. It squats obscenely in space, like any other core empire, administering a vast network of surveillance and enforcement, imposes trade restrictions through outmoded customs laws and seeks to dictate the behaviour in space of free capsuleers. In comparison, the capsuleer alliances of 0.0 space are frankly incompetent. The space they 'claim' is notoriously porous and the daring, independent capsuleer can make a handsome living under the noses of those who presume to set themselves up as petty barons in the Outer Worlds. As to the other empires, current events suggest the need for intervention is less pressing. The Gallente Federation is a chaos, riven by political strife, separatism and prey, delightfully, to all who would make their own way in life. The Minmatar Republic is moribund, barely holding itself together as its population leaks away and its frontiers are a rich field of opportunity for the free-spirited capsuleer. The Amarrian Empire is subject to the instability of an interregnum of extraordinary length and the in-fighting of capsuleer factions. So then, in the moment, we turn to the State and here we are. Quote: The borders of the State are not closed off, nor do its naval vessels summarily fire upon neutral parties. Should it be desired it is not even difficult to attain amicable standings with the State to secure a stable and favorable business relationship, either. The Caldari State arrogates for itself and for CONCORD, of which it is a governing member, a monopoly on force. If I see an enemy in Caldari space, I may not fire upon him without penalty unless I have paid vast fees to the CONCORD bureaucracy and by extension to the Caldari State. Moreover, the Caldari State presumes to judge me on the basis of who I work for and who I may fight even though those entities may have no direct connection with the State as member organisations of its empire. This is enclosurism. Quote: Politically too, the Caldari represent a variety of competing views that nevertheless co-exist in harmony. The three terms we use û Liberals, Patriots and Practicals û are a way of categorizing that wealth of opinion that exists within our citizenry. Neither simple nationalistic interest û the cause of great harm throughout human history û nor archaic spiritual directives, or even an inefficient democratic review of popular opinion guides our evolution, which is instead shaped by sound economical principles and strategy that adds value across the various strata of society. Yet the ugly face of gross nationalism is the one which the most vocal Caldari time and again present to the universe. The love of Mother State; the ludicrous attachment to a world that has no rational signficance any more for the Caldari people; the xenophobia of 'Caldari State for the Caldari'; the claim that the 'Caldari Way' is the best and only way. Yes, this is the battleground. Too many capsuleers are seduced by the apparent freedoms of the Caldari State and make it their model. They ignore the crushing of the human spirit that consists in the emphasis on territory, order and loyalty to a system rather than loyalty to one's own self. As to those who softly cry that some battles are not worth fighting. No. All battles are worth fighting if the free and the willing stand on one side while the tyrants and the cowed huddle on the other. The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction
Roy Gordon	Posted - 2006.10.04 12:47:00 - [16] I, Roy Gordon, do hereby invoke articles 503.35.2.1, 503.35.2.2 and 506.15.1 of the Caldari Articles of State. ‘503.35.2.1. Further, it shall be unlawful to impede, inhibit or otherwise prevent a citizen of the State from pursuing their lawful business. However, see article 506.15.1 for exemptions to this article.’ ‘503.35.2.2. Those who deliberately cause harm, distress or disruption to a citizen or citizens pursing their lawful business will be subject to penalities ranging from fines to execution. ‘506.15.1. Only those officials acting within the authority of their State body or organisation are exempt from these conditions and/or restrictions’
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 13:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Nooey Careful which fires you choose to light Jericho, some battles are more worthy than others. Now, now, Nooey, the Revolution may care for it's prodigal sons, but you cannot seriously mean that you did not see the Fractionist case against the State? It is a stifling monolithic structure erected to dominate the masses and lock us, the first generation of spacefaring humans with chances of breaking free in any true sense of the word, into servitude to it's higher echelons. It's purpose, it's origin, the fundamental mechanics of it's Machine are the same as the Federation, the Republic, the Empire, and the littered remnants of fallen empires. And it's future, is the same as those fallen empires. No battle can be more worthy than casting down the empires of man.
GoGo Yubari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.04 13:40:00 - [18] Edited by: GoGo Yubari on 04/10/2006 13:43:47 I can't say I'm all surprised by this development. The vox populi was actually right for once when they said something was not right about the tournament. Imagine that.
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2006.10.04 13:43:00 - [19] how long did you sit before BoB and give them pleasure? You will always carry the slave mark of BoB branded on your face. You dared speak of Free Space and supported the most Iron Fisted Imperial regime. I don't care what you post now, you served in their shadow for more than a year. You helped form RKK back when you were imperialist dogs yourselves in Venal. Your past might be railed against now, and you might convince the newbies who did not see Taggart and Venal Alliance and all your attempts at imperial sovereignty before you were throw out, but I did, I was there. Therefore I repeat, BoB end of statement. Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think.
Vlada Milani Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.10.04 13:57:00 - [20] To the Cosmopolite (and other interested parties), You speak of Caldari regulation through enforcement of our rules as if we were claiming to guard the objective truth itself. Quite obviously, this is not what we endeavour to do and the things mentioned are instead proof that we are active and do what we can to bring more value to ourselves and our business partners. Any success in these pursuits are merely proof of our strength and should be verified by consulting the income statements of involved parties. Yet, our society does not feel restricted in conducting these practises, ever seeking new and more efficient models of behaviour. The agents in this activity are the countless corporations and their individual agendas, not a singular will of the State that seeks to repress the citizenry. You should also know that the innovative will always find ways of bending and working with the rules, so in truth all of our customs, laws and so forth are always adapting and in a state of flux, while continuing to add value to the our stakeholders, corporate citizens and our partners. We are, after all, human operators within the Caldari system, therefore there will necessarily be life within that structure lest it grow stale and die. You yourself first go on to comment that you are unable to attack your own enemies inside Caldari patrolled territory (which is entirely sensible, as it is rightly in our business and humanitarian interests to provide a certain extent of protection to allied and neutral parties), yet at the same time you comment that our system actually allows you to do this with some effort on your part. You present a perceived problem and the very solution that is inherent to our system all by yourself. In conclusion, I would like to state that while the liberals are likely to ignore the Star Fraction's memetic terrorism, any and all patriots should doubtlessly consider you a clear and present danger to the Caldari State, based simply on your own admissions here. Personally, my holistic view of the State and faith in the vitality of our way life allows me to consider you a useful tool in the on-going re-engineering of various business processes and institutions within the State.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 13:58:00 - [21] Flowery words and radical ideologies wont keep citizens safe or happy. While many parts of your ideology are noble, others are simply unrealistic and gratuitously radical. Progress can exist inside the stability of tradition and history. This is something the Caldari people have proved repeatedly throughout the ages. To think they would trade away the world they have strived for and the methods they used to get there, in exchange for some vague notions of utopia...it's foolish. You have little idea of what the Caldari people really want, the seeds you think you are sowing will be cast away by the cold wind of reason and truth. ____
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 14:11:00 - [22] You are quite a trinket, aren't you, Tomahawk? I'll put it simple: you don't have a clue. I thought we had already established that. "Imperial Sovereignty" through establishing the NVA constitution of free trade (as opposed to other's preferred NBSI) is a neat concept. If the opening of regions and promotion of free trade in frontier space is what you have to blame Jericho Fraction for, I think they will be thrilled. I'll give you a 2/10 for that attempt, though. The servitude of BoB's Iron Fist Imperial Regime(Ö)... Well, ask them how easy it was to get us to do what they wanted us to do. You'll find most saying "I dunno", since guess what - they didn't try. 0/10 for that attempt. Now, feel free to do something about us. You know where we are. Come kill our evil hides! Take a stand for your convictions! Make us pay! Or not... As usual. Empty Windbag. (end of statement?)
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 14:21:00 - [23] Originally by: Nooey You have little idea of what the Caldari people really want We're not in this for the Caldari People. The very notion of a Caldari People, or any division of the kind be it labelled race or bloodline or ethnicity or citizenry or whathaveyou, is the symptom of a disease that needs to be rooted out like any cancer. We're in this for the realization of humanity's potential. The pallid and cheap notion of a "Caldari People" is too small to register on the scales in comparison.
Hulemand Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 14:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Nooey Progress can exist inside the stability of tradition and history. This is something the Caldari people have proved repeatedly throughout the ages. To think they would trade away the world they have strived for and the methods they used to get there, in exchange for some vague notions of utopia...it's foolish. You have little idea of what the Caldari people really want, the seeds you think you are sowing will be cast away by the cold wind of reason and truth. The truth you say! Maybe it is just easiest for the Caldari citizens to forget where their luxury, their way of life come from? I will tell you - their state's many relationships and trade with Amarrian slavers! That is the truth, you live your rich and joyfull lifes because of these poor souls! Amusing how easy you can forget this!
Derrys Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.04 15:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Azador Kavian Correct me if I am wrong? One other correction: The Kimotoro Directive does not "lay claim" to any systems. We operate in Mito simply because it is the most convenient location from which to pursue our goals. The only ones to whom we have denied travel or access to resources are those who threaten violence against the many legitimate businesspeople, traders, explorers, and other independent pilots who seek to travel through the area. Free trade promotes a strong economy, and a strong economy is the foundation of the State's future. For this reason we are frankly baffled by the Star Fraction's hostile overtones, as well as their equally inexplicable support for Guristas terrorists who, by their own admission, are expansionistic, authoritarian, and attempting to carve out an empire for themselves. While our ideologies and motivations obviously differ, I would've thought the Star Fraction would be delighted by what we've accomplished in Mito, since the end result is compatible with their agenda as much as it furthers ours. As for the State, the arguments presented above are patently silly. The Federation, drowned in bureaucracy though it may be, actively suppresses the independence of an entire people who wish only to be free. The Empire enslaves -- literally! -- billions of people, and seeks to enslave billions more. And the Republic is dedicated to the cause of terrorism and murder in pursuit of vendetta. As the State wishes only to defend its borders, assure the safety of its citizens, and recover stolen territory, we are not only the most righteous of the major nations, but also the most compatible with the Fraction's agenda. For this reason we suspect there must be some personal motivation here which remains unspoken. We continue to hold out hope that hostilities will not be required -- we were under the impression that the Fraction's last war against us ended in an understanding -- but if they insist on concocting a flimsy excuse to go to war against us, we are fully prepared to defend ourselves. Disappointed though we are to see our suspicions confirmed, we have seen this coming for some time, and have prepared accordingly. As much as the Black Rabbits flatter themselves to believe they were responsible for our recent relocation of assets, the fact of the matter is that our consolidation was already well underway when they arrived on the scene, in order to prepare for a possible unprovoked attack from this direction. Our preparations are now complete. Any war you insist on pursuing against us will not be an easy one. Therefore we ask the Star Fraction to exercise the reason they claim to value so dearly. Surely we both have higher priorities than pointless loss of life, especially when murdering pirates fancy themselves tyrants right next door. We are ready to fight if we must, but we hope that rationality will prevail. -- Admiral Derrys Otireya Commander, Fleet Operations, Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Fleet Admiral, Kimotoro Directive
Sakura Yoshimitsu	Posted - 2006.10.04 15:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Tatsue Nuko The very notion of a Caldari People, or any division of the kind be it labelled race or bloodline or ethnicity or citizenry or whathaveyou, is the symptom of a disease that needs to be rooted out like any cancer. We're in this for the realization of humanity's potential. The pallid and cheap notion of a "Caldari People" is too small to register on the scales in comparison. I've heard words like this before. They were from a man named Sansha.
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:02:00 - [27] Tomohawk Bliss, you never fail to impress me. As soon as I think I have seen the lowest common denominator of a clue among people on Galnet you always seem to bring it down farther. Its no secret that Jericho Fraction was part of the NVA, but anyone with a memory will recall that the NVA was also the beacon of freespace at the time among the 0.0 Alliances. They will remember how Jericho worked to oust the piratical Taggart and form the NVA from the VA's ashes as an anti-pirate, NRDS freespace alliance and yet you are still stupid enough to pass this off as an attempt at imperial sovereignty? Not even the Taggartites tried that one. When it comes to BOB, you seriously cannot be more absolutely wrong about your assertation. Sure, we have supported BOB in the past, just as anyone would support someone who is working against a common enemy. Both during the formation of RKK when we supported them against our enemies in the Great Northern War, and when we later supported BoB against the imperialistic powers of the north, we simply worked towards the common goal of defeating a shared foe. You say this is wrong, when you yourself have gone farther, at a time making your 'Intaki Union' into nothing but slaves to do the dirty work of the Amarrian loyalists on the thin connection of shared enemies not even against the target they gave you but just in theory with the Federation? Even aside from that, anyone with the slightest clue will know that we have been hostile to Band of Brothers for pretty much a year now and you still claim we work in their shadow? Pardon me, Mr. Bliss, but how absolutely clueless can you get? Take your alternate history to a publisher next time, you might have a future in fiction, for your sense of what is actually going on is clearly lacking. Despite the Syndicate's affiliation with the market its probably still a bad idea to partake of Boosters yourself. Fear is the mind-killer.
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:13:00 - [28] You're supporting a pirate faction that closes borders and shoots neutrals in its space in order to war a faction that allows trade and free travel. You've been to Venal, Tenal, Pureblind, Vale of the Silent and so on? Guristas everywhere, they fire on sight, and they even claim Venal as theirs. Right at this moment, Star Fraction, you're a beacon of hypocrasy and this is an extremely poor excuse for revolutionary action. All you're doing is cutting out friends and past allies for no more than pointless violence in favour of a regime far, far more evil than the Caldari State could ever be. You're failing in what you design yourself to be, and i'm dissapointed. Website / Forums / Recruiting
Rhuu Gallente Es and Whizz	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:14:00 - [29] Edited by: Rhuu on 04/10/2006 16:14:41 ...
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Tatsue Nuko The servitude of BoB's Iron Fist Imperial Regime(Ö)... Well, ask them how easy it was to get us to do what they wanted us to do. You'll find most saying "I dunno", since guess what - they didn't try. Funny how that excuse didn't fly the other night in the face of you accusing Omerta of being tyrants, simply by being associated with an NBSI, Territory-claiming Alliance. Quote: Jade Constantine > the point being Nooey, a territorial alliance is an intrisically extorting entity, by joining such an alliance you took part in its extortion of neutrals For all of Jericho claims about espousing truth, you seem awfully reluctant to admit to your own grey areas. No doubt you will harp on about the fact that you did not actually join BoB, nor did you accept their Rules of Engagement, all the while pretending that you in no way furthered their own goals and helped support their own oppressive regime. Maybe you didn't, but it's an incredibly hard line to swallow. You would have us believe that BoB gained nothing from your presence in the region, and I find that to be extremely doubtful. ____
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:21:00 - [31] Yuki, you and yours are quite simply failing at understanding what we are doing, and why. No surprise, when you are too busy painting the Rabbits black for having the same engagement rules you have. Except that the Rabbits are engaged in a fight towards a good cause. You aren't. You've regressed to aimless nullsec piracy, returning to the table only for a chance to defend a ractionary system that would have humanity locked in collective shackles for all time. As for any purported Sansha connection, Sansha was a loon that completely lost track of the plot. You don't free the slave by making him a drone.
Naphtalia The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:26:00 - [32] It amuses me how everyone is trying to tell everyone else how the other should think based on that others beliefs and values? Maybe that is where the discusion should start? "Should I decide what O-Syn / JF / Rabbits / KD should do by trying to interpret their values?" recruitment
Selim Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:26:00 - [33] Edited by: Selim on 04/10/2006 16:27:34 Originally by: Derrys ... I would've thought the Star Fraction would be delighted by what we've accomplished in Mito, since the end result is compatible with their agenda as much as it furthers ours. ... As the State wishes only to defend its borders, assure the safety of its citizens, and recover stolen territory, we are not only the most righteous of the major nations, but also the most compatible with the Fraction's agenda. I'm sorry, but what agenda are you speaking of? I know of no such Star Fraction agenda that is even remotely compatible with the "Caldari Way". As far as I know, we have never and will never support any of the empires in their ways - especially the State, which represses individualism and stands only for corporate servitude and militaristic nationalism. I'm terribly sorry to inform you that such an 'ideal', no matter how much it is butterded up with tales of 'progress', 'righteousness' and 'freedom', is completely incompatible with true freedom. The only people that are truly free are us the pod pilots, the Caldari and Gallente CEO's, the politicians, the Amarr lords, and the Minmatar tribal leaders. Everyone else is enslaved to varying degrees. And what exactly have you accomplished in Mito? Originally by: Nooey And this is to say nothing of your current choice of friends... I don't recall anyone in Star Fraction ever declaring us friendly to the Guristas, my friend. We share a common foe, this is true, but who says we are, truly, on their side?
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:29:00 - [34] Originally by: Tatsue Nuko ...the Rabbits are engaged in a fight towards a good cause. You aren't. You've regressed to aimless...piracy Originally by: Naphtalia So this is what is going to happen. We will fly trough Mito and murder people you are supposed to protect and we will pillage their ships and fatten our wallets. Chaos is upon you, The Black Rabbits. What nonsense... ____
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:31:00 - [35] Edited by: Tatsue Nuko on 04/10/2006 16:32:06 Originally by: Nooey For all of Jericho claims about espousing truth, you seem awfully reluctant to admit to your own grey areas. No doubt you will harp on about the fact that you did not actually join BoB, nor did you accept their Rules of Engagement, all the while pretending that you in no way furthered their own goals and helped support their own oppressive regime. I can but sigh and reiterate: you don't get it. What I will "harp on about" is that we chose our avenues as we see fit. If at any time we deem it in the interest of the revolution to make common cause against a common enemy, we will do so and make no apologies for it, since no apologies are needed. Originally by: Nooey And this is to say nothing of your current choice of friends... As has been stated a multitude of times: what is our "friends" doing that you haven't? If you mean the Rabbits, and I assume our voiced approval of their decision to fight the agents of stasis, then the difference would be just that latter thing. A very important difference. Anything else that they are, you are too. Any claims to the contrary rings all the more hollow with every vessel you unprovokedly attack, each corpse of pilots never before hostile to you set floating in the void. You, Nooey, is a murderer, a pirate, and until quite recently willing defender of territorial exclusion zones. The day you commit to a productive cause helping the future of humanity is the day you might have something legitimate to say about the Rabbits. Until then, they are your betters.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:39:00 - [36] No apologies to be made huh? So you would have us all believe that the plethora of past involvements Star Fraction has had with oppressive territorial alliances has not in any way benefited or helped them? Thus perpetuating oppression and tyranny? Please, since I clearly don't get it. Explain how that could possibly be true... ____
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:44:00 - [37] Originally by: Tatsue Nuko If at any time we deem it in the interest of the revolution to make common cause against a common enemy, we will do so and make no apologies for it, since no apologies are needed. It's already in plain text for you.
Naphtalia The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:49:00 - [38] Nooey, Nooey. Since your Quoting machine has failed in your favour by taking out of context partial-text to your advantage, I will help you out. Quote: So this is what is going to happen. We will fly trough Mito and murder people you are supposed to protect and we will pillage their ships and fatten our wallets. We will do so until you either start protecting them again in force; or publically admit you are in no shape or form to protect this constellation anymore with your Phanthom Forces of Fascist Fallacies. First of all this shows the KD to be the real criminals, secondly it shows that we will murder for a reason, unlike yourself who only murder innocents in EC-P8R to boast your inflated ego's and quench your thirst for blood. I must agree with SF here. We are your betters. recruitment
Takitoo	Posted - 2006.10.04 16:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Nooey No apologies to be made huh? So you would have us all believe that the plethora of past involvements Star Fraction has had with oppressive territorial alliances has not in any way benefited or helped them? Thus perpetuating oppression and tyranny? Please, since I clearly don't get it. Explain how that could possibly be true... Don't bother Nooey. They'll just spill a large amount of text at you enhancing their own points (in different ways each time, sweep your arguments under the rug and after a while you'll give up and roll your eyes.. They'll turn around and proclaim victory and continue being just like any other non-NBSI roamer alliance. That's how JF works. ___________________________ Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:08:00 - [40] Edited by: Nooey on 04/10/2006 17:08:54 So...I ask you to please explain why no apology is necessary and the best you have is a quote that essentially means "Because we say so". Great work. ____
Bang Gunk	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:11:00 - [41] Edited by: Bang Gunk on 04/10/2006 17:12:26
Scorpio Dantes Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:14:00 - [42] Originally by: Naphtalia First of all this shows the KD to be the real criminals, secondly it shows that we will murder for a reason, unlike yourself who only murder innocents in EC-P8R to boast your inflated ego's and quench your thirst for blood. I've found that in our current political culture, dominated as it is by ultranationalistic corporations and fascist states, words like 'criminals' really don't have much meaning. Is it a bad thing to be considered a criminal by the dogmatic forces of reactionism and their sycophantic functionaries? Am I a criminal because I sympathize with the Rabbit cause? I choose to think not. The real criminals are those who would build prisons for the mind and body and their elimination is the just cause of revolution. ~Dantes ________
Edward Sarum	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:23:00 - [43] Originally by: Naphtalia Nooey, Nooey. Since your Quoting machine has failed in your favour by taking out of context partial-text to your advantage, I will help you out. Quote: So this is what is going to happen. We will fly trough Mito and murder people you are supposed to protect and we will pillage their ships and fatten our wallets. We will do so until you either start protecting them again in force; or publically admit you are in no shape or form to protect this constellation anymore with your Phanthom Forces of Fascist Fallacies. First of all this shows the KD to be the real criminals, secondly it shows that we will murder for a reason, unlike yourself who only murder innocents in EC-P8R to boast your inflated ego's and quench your thirst for blood. I must agree with SF here. We are your betters. Let me make sure I have this straight, the Black Rabbits said the second quote up there. They basically said we will kill innocents unless KD withdraws, that is extortion or KD has to fight. AND THIS proves KD is criminal? Can I please have some of what it is you are smoking and next time bring enough for the enitre class. =============================================== Edward Sarum "God and Empire are all we need..."
Naphtalia The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:37:00 - [44] Originally by: Edward Sarum Let me make sure I have this straight Yep you got it straight, they are criminals to their words, their beliefs and within their own system of laws. It is their duty to prevent the death of innocents which they have opportunity to do so. Out of greed and fear of being defeated they chose to sacrifice their charge to the Guristas. There is one organisation that can prevent the slaughter, all they have to do is fight or admit defeat. This organisation choses to do neither and thereby killing the Otsasai local. ... However I before I take this discussion Off Topic. It was really to show how The Black Rabbits fight for a reason, where Omerta Syndicate just fights to quench their thirst for blood and explosions to be able to tell themselves they are really good combat pilots. recruitment
The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 17:57:00 - [45] Originally by: Nooey Edited by: Nooey on 04/10/2006 17:08:54 So...I ask you to please explain why no apology is necessary and the best you have is a quote that essentially means "Because we say so". Forgive me, Nooey, but what offence do you imagine we have anything to apologise for? I await with interest the grave charges we must meet. On another matter, the Star Fraction has at no time in the past engaged in war with the Kimotoro Directive; no 'understanding' exists between the Kimotoro Directive and the Star Fraction; and there is no dark personal animus driving anything in particular so far as the Star Fraction is concerned. I should also say that no 'understanding' exists between CAIN corporation and the Star Fraction as a consequence of the war between CAIN and the Fraction following the Ullia Hnolku affair. I think it is telling that CAIN consider that any such 'understanding' between ourselves and they alone would have a bearing on the entirety of the Kimotoro Directive but no such agreement exists. I see also a claim to foresight and anticipation of some act of aggression on our part. This is interesting insofar as it suggests that the Kimotoro Directive is at some level aware that their activities are potentially cause for... an intervention of some kind on the part of freedom-loving capsuleers. Whatever transpires, let no-one say it is a sudden or random act if even those who oppose us are able to dimly grasp that there is ample motive here. The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 18:16:00 - [46] Originally by: Nooey So...I ask you to please explain why no apology is necessary How difficult can it be? If we judge that a course of action furthers the cause of the revolution, we will commit to it with no regret. Why would we apologise for doing what's necessary in the name of humanity's future? You, on the other hand, is a planless murderer and an agent of the status quo. You demanding explanations and even apologies from us is hilarious at best, and just plain sad any other day. The Black Rabbits are vastly greater agents of freedom and futures bright than you. Live with it.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 18:22:00 - [47] Originally by: The Cosmopolite Forgive me, Nooey, but what offence do you imagine we have anything to apologise for? I guess I'll just rephrase my question then.. ...That the plethora of past involvements Star Fraction has had with oppressive territorial alliances has benefited and/or helped them (the alliances) thus perpetuating oppression and tyranny. Not quite the same thing you accuse Omerta of (Joining said alliances and sharing their NBSI doctrine), but there is still the issue of the other ways in which Jericho is responsible for the perpetuation of tyranny. If it's a necessary means to your end then just say so... Anyhow it's not really on topic, but just something that I don't understand. On topic, Cos, I'd like to hear what you have to say about comments like this. Originally by: Naphtalia There is one organisation that can prevent the slaughter, all they have to do is fight or admit defeat. This organisation choses to do neither and thereby killing the Otsasai local. What possibly attracts a freespacer to this? It reeks of the very same entrenched memes you fight. Where is the individual freedom in comments like this, that assert that freedom lies in the hands of the sheperds and the wolves? ____
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.04 18:33:00 - [48] Quote: Yuki, you and yours are quite simply failing at understanding what we are doing, and why. No surprise, when you are too busy painting the Rabbits black for having the same engagement rules you have. Thankyou for completely avoiding my point, Tatsue, the same way you always do when you have no coherent answer. That said, most of your answers here thus far have been little more than hypocritical spin, but i expected that from you, it's all you know how to do - the actual truth isn't an option you'd ever consider. It still stands that The Star Fraction is supporting a territorial NBSI alliance - the Guristas. That's pretty difficult to get around, isn't it. Do you really think the Guristas would take over State space and turn it into some daydream utopian forest of happiness? No. The Guristas are not a cause worth following, you're lashing out because you have nothing better to do, and you're supporting Guristas because you're incapable of doing it by yourself. Website / Forums / Recruiting
Azador Kavian Amarr Royal Knights of Khanid Order of the Khanid Crown	Posted - 2006.10.04 18:39:00 - [49] The utter hypocrisy of all involved parties here simply... astounds me. -------- Venerate the almighty Khanid, for without him we are nothing!
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 19:11:00 - [50] Nooey, as per your claimed offense as per us aparrently leading directly to the spread of imperialism - Surely you refer to us working against common enemies with those who keep NBSI doctrine - I see no basis for your claims. Its really as simple as using what resources are available to bring the enemy down. If that means using one pigdog to kill another, then so much the better, that still is one less imperialist faction in lawless space to prey on the innocent. To make it really simple, look at it this way. Faction A shoots us, and Faction B does not shoot us but shoots Faction A. Isn't it logical for us to help Faction B kill Faction A? Is there something wrong with this, when what we are helping is simply the destruction of Faction A when not actually increasing the territorial influence of Faction B? Unless I am mistaken as I have not been with Jericho forever, but everything I know about our corporation's history since the GNW has not involved the assistance of NBSI-ing alliances in imperialistic objectives. Somehow I doubt you will be able to find hard evidence to the contrary. Frankly I don't see why you think you have any right to challenge our ideology until you forsake NBSI yourselves. The minute you all stop shooting innocent neutrals on a whim is where you can start to have any sort of moral high ground to speak from. Now, I can't speak for all of Jericho but I see the Black Rabbits as directly challenging the same sort of imperialistic and nationalistic policies we also challenge. Simply enough, Kimotoro Directive has claimed the role of protector for the Mito Constellation and when push comes to shove, all Black Rabbits wants them to do is stand down and throw away a claim fueled by their overinflated pride. I think this is a worthwhile objective to support. So, in other terms, the end they seek coincides with our policy. Myself, I find their methods of holding the locals hostage questionable, though given how incredibly simple their demands are, I would place some responsibility on Kimotoro Directive for not casting aside their nationalistic pride for the sake of those they claim to care about. I support their actions taken against the State nationalists, not all of their policies. Frankly, if you honestly think that Jericho Fraction is about to jump out and help the Guristas conquer anything then really, you need to brush up on what we are about. As I said earlier, from everything I know Jericho Fraction has never supported anyone's enclosurist territorial claims, certainly not within any of my own experience, and that is one policy we will never back away from. Quote: No. The Guristas are not a cause worth following, you're lashing out because you have nothing better to do, and you're supporting Guristas because you're incapable of doing it by yourself. And that is really not a very nice thing to say. It hurts my industrialist sensibilites and insults my ability to help the corp prepare for conflict. It also insults my combat abilities. It makes me sad. Though, given that the last time I was in contact with ANYONE from Omerta was not in Jericho Fraction (I was in Fate. at the time, you can thank me Nooey for ordering the gang to spare you and your buddy) I really don't see how you are in any position to appraise this. Perhaps in due time you may learn of your error. Fear is the mind-killer.
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 19:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Nooey If it's a necessary means to your end then just say so... Originally by: Tatsue Nuko If at any time we deem it in the interest of the revolution to make common cause against a common enemy, we will do so and make no apologies for it, since no apologies are needed. Why did that take several reiterations? Originally by: Nooey Not quite the same thing you accuse Omerta of (Joining said alliances and sharing their NBSI doctrine) Omerta's decision to commence aggression on non-hostiles pre-dates joining forces with organizations such as PURE. The best and only explanation offered is yourself recently stating that there is no such thing as a neutral, and the definition of innocent pilot being State Citizenry or Residency. As for your comment on Rabbit policy, there are regrettable elements. But they have stated their reason, being that the Kimotoro Directive have labelled themselves shepherds, and the Rabbits are showing them that Kimotoro lacks the ability to make good on that. My personal opinion is quite simple: anyone that relies on a shepherd has given up all freedom already. You cannot be free and reliant on a would-be police force at the same time. He who calls upon the "law" against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. He who cannot take care of himself without that "law" is both. On to Yuki... Originally by: Yuki Li It still stands that The Star Fraction is supporting a territorial NBSI alliance - the Guristas. The Star Fraction holds no allegiance or support of the Guristas. We applaud the corporation Black Rabbits for their initiative against the State-loyal militias present in Mito Constellation. That's it. If you made a similar commitment against reactionary forces you'd get applauded for it too. You don't, however. You have been quite content shooting neutral entities at every opportunity, leaving that as your only agenda and purpose. Originally by: Yuki Li you're supporting Guristas because you're incapable of doing it by yourself. Is this a fact? Are you calling upon us to attack Kimotoro Directive? I'll take it under consideration. End of the matter for Omerta is this, though: you're murderers. That's all. The Black Rabbits may be murderers too, but they are killing the right people, with many of the right reasons. The gulf between the two of you is vast and in their favour. If your above quoted statement is to be interpreted as claims of weakness, I will welcome a war declaration. I would lobby to have it made mutual to avoid evasions on grounds of economy. You are currently at war with the Black Rabbits, and apparently we are "supporting" them and being generally naughty. Punish us or shut it.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.04 19:33:00 - [52] Edited by: Gorion Wassenar on 04/10/2006 19:32:57 Originally by: Ituralde Myself, I find their methods of holding the locals hostage questionable, though given how incredibly simple their demands are, I would place some responsibility on Kimotoro Directive for not casting aside their nationalistic pride for the sake of those they claim to care about. The Gallente tried that. Didn't work. What makes you think anything's changed since then? ------------------ CEO of TKI
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:20:00 - [53] Frankly Gorion, I don't see how you can be not responsible if your claims are directly related to the death of innocents. This is not to judge your actions, it simply means that if innocents do fall at the hands of the Black Rabbits, it is partly your repsonsibility as you could both not maintain your pledge of protection and also for that same pledge incurring their wrath. In very simple terms, you have to either be able to do what you say or you need to abandon the claim to spare those who your actions endanger. Such pledges anyhow are the results of nationalistic pride anyhow, and inherrently puts the claimant in the position of overlord. Such claims are the sort that Star Fraction does not support. Myself, I would rather risk death at the hands of pirates than submit to the 'protection' of the Caldari State. It is better to die free than to live as the dog of another. Fear is the mind-killer.
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:31:00 - [54] I think the reponsibilty lies entirely on the person doing the killing. I don't see police officers getting charged with murder when a hostage is killed by criminals. This is exactly the same. As for backing it up, I belive we're at war and would be shooting those people responsible if they were around. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:33:00 - [55] I have to admit that much of the interchange of words and accusations and such between free captains of the Star Fraction and officers of Omerta Syndicate in this discussion topic have been rather pointless. The issue here is the Star Fraction's presence and intentions in the Mito Constellation. What Omerta Syndicate choose to do over the Kimotoro vs Black Rabbits engagement is entirely down to them. What Star Fracton might do in the immediate future is entirely down to us. Raking over the past coals of old campaigns and prior allegiences serves no-one. The Star Fraction is known for its idealism and mission. This continues. I've never once doubted my involvement the posthumanist cause and none of my experiences on the frontier, nullsec or patrolled militia space have persuaded me that the cluster is in any way free from constraining influence and significant restriction. Whatever happens remember this. Star Fraction does not make war on planetary populations or the machinary of open trade. We do make war on those who wish to be the jailers of other's dreams, and chaos is better than stasis and strangulation. _________________
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.04 20:37:00 - [56] But you support those that do? Rubbish. ------------------ CEO of TKI
Darina Rea True Core	Posted - 2006.10.04 21:05:00 - [57] Sooooo, the Fraction is putting themselves up as messegers of peace hoping to get the territorial factions to work together and prosper? Somehow, that sounds like a real contradiction, both of the parties involved in the confict and the Fraction. But please, keep creating chaos in the Empires space. It's so much fun. Time is on our side.
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 21:38:00 - [58] Originally by: Darina Rea Sooooo, the Fraction is putting themselves up as messegers of peace hoping to get the territorial factions to work together and prosper? Somehow, that sounds like a real contradiction, both of the parties involved in the confict and the Fraction. But please, keep creating chaos in the Empires space. It's so much fun. Are we reading the same thread? _________________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 21:39:00 - [59] Originally by: Gorion Wassenar But you support those that do? Rubbish. What? _________________
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:14:00 - [60] I, for one, am seeing Star Fraction's efforts as increasingly anti-humanitarian. As always, fighting for ideals first and people second results in tragedy. If you really wanted nothing but freedom, you would be leading by example, creating just such a society (or lack of one). You do not fix a broken system by destroying it. The revolution eats her children. But then, this isn't a revolution. In order to be classified thus, it would need to be bigger, and have an actual following amongst the people. What we are seeing is a small band of individuals making war based on rethoric that is contradictive, unpopular and far too flowery for my taste. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Jonny Damordred Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:17:00 - [61] Originally by: Beringe You do not fix a broken system by destroying it. You don't build a new house on top of unsound ruins, you tear down the ruins and build on solid ground. Cheers, Jonny D.
Roy Gordon	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:24:00 - [62] When you have the FULL backing of the citizens of the State you can then start talking about tearing it down. Your just a bunch of seditionist scum who the State will enjoy crushing underfoot like the worms you are!
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:40:00 - [63] Originally by: Beringe I, for one, am seeing Star Fraction's efforts as increasingly anti-humanitarian. As always, fighting for ideals first and people second results in tragedy. If you really wanted nothing but freedom, you would be leading by example, creating just such a society (or lack of one). You do not fix a broken system by destroying it. You don't fix a broken system by getting used to it either. Get too comfortable and soon the irritations fade away and you can't even see the bars of your prison any longer. But its still a prison and you are still a slave. _________________
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:42:00 - [64] Originally by: Tatsue Nuko Now, now, Nooey, the Revolution may care for it's prodigal sons, but you cannot seriously mean that you did not see the Fractionist case against the State? It is a stifling monolithic structure erected to dominate the masses and lock us, the first generation of spacefaring humans with chances of breaking free in any true sense of the word, into servitude to it's higher echelons. As always, you're blinded by the mindless raging that you have made into a way of life. The Caldari State isn't trying to dominate you or lock you into servitude...you're completely free to never set foot in State territory, or have any dealings with the State if you so desire. No, the State GAVE YOU the freedom that you scream about every day. If the State were everything you say it is, the only people with access to these capsules that you think make you different from other humans would be State military personnel. Instead, in the great wisdom of letting "free" economics guide our society, the State allowed and encouraged the proliferation of the technology that you hold so dear. So instead of railing against that which granted you your way of life, why don't you sit back and see if YOU can learn something? And all this talk of revolution is getting absurd. A revolution replaces something old with something new. Everybody knows that Star Fraction does nothing but destroy (and create their own jargon as a hobby). Maybe you should start calling yourselves "apocalyptics" instead of "revolutionaries". --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine You don't fix a broken system by getting used to it either. Get too comfortable and soon the irritations fade away and you can't even see the bars of your prison any longer. But its still a prison and you are still a slave. I don't disagree on any point. But none of them fail to validate what I said: If you want change, you're doing it wrong. Am I doing any better? I'm afraid I can't answer that at this point. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:46:00 - [66] Don't you understand yet Nikolai, its not our freedom we're fighting for. It's yours. _________________
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.04 23:54:00 - [67] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Don't you understand yet Nikolai, its not our freedom we're fighting for. It's yours. Whether or not he wants it, right? Sort of like "Be a good boy and eat your revolution, or you won't get any posthumanism!", yeah? At that price, who wants it. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 00:18:00 - [68] Originally by: Beringe Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Don't you understand yet Nikolai, its not our freedom we're fighting for. It's yours. Whether or not he wants it, right? Sort of like "Be a good boy and eat your revolution, or you won't get any posthumanism!", yeah? At that price, who wants it. Well its more the case that the poor fellow is programmed by his life and upbringing in the State. Nobody is entirely worthless. There is a secret core of individuality in even the most downtrodden of collectivist drones. But the point is a serious one. We aren't at war against people and individuals, we are at war against the system of ideas that perpetuates the stasis of empires and territorial conceit. We honestly see people like Nikolai as brainwashed into the service of tyranny by pervasive memes and compromised customs - why else does an otherwise rational posthuman dwell forever on the sins of past centuries and a meaningless hunk of rock and tawdry scrap of nationalist pride? And if Nikolai is freed. Why not the thousands and millions of his homeworld? Who knows where the revolution will stop. One just needs the courage to dream. _________________
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.05 00:25:00 - [69] I see. It's quite similar to the cult member thinking that it's just the rest of the world that is brainwashed. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 00:52:00 - [70] Originally by: Beringe I see. It's quite similar to the cult member thinking that it's just the rest of the world that is brainwashed. Yes, because its normal to forsake human freedom and become a dog of the Caldari State. Sadly, it actually does seem the natural thing to do, even as soon as you undock from the University after receiving your pilot's liscence is make a last effort to drag you into service of the empire you were born in. The Caldari State is certainly not alone in this, by any means, though I must say they certainly have one of the larger populations of new pod pilots around. They suck pilots in and make it seem right to blindly do as they are told by their agents, and the agents reward just enough to bind pilots to their sides. Its the easy thing to fall into as a Pod Pilot. Certainly others do seek their own freedom, but not many really leave the empire that first cradled them. Most of those who do end up signing up for a new sort of slavery - servitude to one of the large capsuleer alliances and selling thier independence, their personal views and their opinions for the riches of lawless space, simply because it is the easy way of doing it. Many do not even think of doing things another way, many sacrifice their freedom without even seeing a glimmer of an alternative. I will admit freely to doing this myself. As a young pilot I was given an offer to join CyberDyne Industries, drawn in by the promise of what I thought of at the time as uncountable riches. I lived at fought for the Forsaken Empire for over 6 months, never considering life outside of servitude of the alliance. I was as brainwashed as one could get and threw everything I had at the enemies of Forsaken Empire. However I did learn. I did cast aside imperialistic dogma. I did cast aside NBSI policy. I joined Jericho Fraction because I saw that despite my former staunch arguments to the contrary, that what Jericho fights for is indeed true. I figure that if I can free any pilot from the bonds of nationalism and avoid the path that I myself took then I will have done something of a service to the galaxy. That, is why I fight. We are right, freedom is worth every hardship required to gain it, it is worth being in the gunsights of almost every powerful faction in the galaxy to maintain it and free people from the clutches of blind servitude. I firmly beleive that even the most staunch and unquestioning servants can one day be made to see the path of freedom. And when they do, they will most definately walk it. Fear is the mind-killer.
Taes Valkiir Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.05 00:52:00 - [71] Edited by: Taes Valkiir on 05/10/2006 00:56:19 First, let me make this cutting clear. I speak for myself and myself alone. Originally by: Tatsue Nuko If at any time we deem it in the interest of the revolution to make common cause against a common enemy, we will do so and make no apologies for it, since no apologies are needed. Conceded. Too much of this 'verse is being painted in black and white of late. The star cluster has always been better seen in shades of grey, and in that you and I see eye to eye. Originally by: Tatsue Nuko End of the matter for Omerta is this, though: you're murderers. That's all. The Black Rabbits may be murderers too, but they are killing the right people, with many of the right reasons. The gulf between the two of you is vast and in their favour. It is here, Tatsue, that you have chosen to see things as cut and dry again. You are willing to blur the line in the sand for the Black Rabbits, but not for Omerta. Who are you to decide the "right" reasons for murder? EC-P8R is a choke system under FoF sovriegnty. If the Black Rabbits are committing so-called righteous murder in the Mito constellation, then Omerta has become a kind of ally in your revolution. We have shown the innocents of Pure Blind that nullsec is not safe, that it is lawless, that there are no rules, and we have shown them that there is no one to protect them but themselves. Originally by: Tatsue Nuko He who calls upon the "law" against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. He who cannot take care of himself without that "law" is both. I would say that I was simply illustrating your point with every interceptor, hauler, shuttle, and yes, even rookie ship that I took down. There is no such thing as innocence in nullsec. It is lawless. Those that cannot take care of themselves without the law are truly foolish cowards, and I have simply accentuated your point with force. Understand, I was once a freecaptain in Jericho's ranks. Their rules of engagement are strict and specific. If a Star Fraction pilot happens upon a pirate engaged with a defenseless neutral hauler, he is not to interfere. Why? Because in saving the hauler, you are giftwrapping their freedom. You are, as Tatsue so aptly put it, becoming a shepherd. I am not damning the Star Fraction for their RoE. But in standing aside as the innocent are destroyed, you are giving the destroyers permission. In a way, the Star Fraction is letting the pirate corporations do their dirty work for them. Omerta does not hide behind the rhetoric of permission. Nullsec is lawless, and we are unafraid to fly in that sky. That said, I do not attribute this "righteousness" to the pilots of Omerta, nor do I credit it to the capsuleers of the Black Rabbits. If your eyes choose to see this righteousness, you cannot see Omerta in black and white with your left and the Rabbits in shades of gray with your right. That is something much like hypocrisy, is it not? We have never claimed to be more than "murderers," if that is what you choose to call those that kill. We are a ragtag group of pilots on the run, burned by everyone we once trusted and seeking revenge in a bloodied void. That is who we are. I shall see you in the sky. _________________________________________________________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 01:06:00 - [72] Originally by: Taes Valkiir Understand, I was once a freecaptain in Jericho's ranks. Their rules of engagement are strict and specific. If a Star Fraction pilot happens upon a pirate engaged with a defenseless neutral hauler, he is not to interfere. Why? Because in saving the hauler, you are giftwrapping their freedom. You are, as Tatsue so aptly put it, becoming a shepherd. All the difference in the world depending on whether the "pirate" in question was -10 to us of course. If so, then they are a target at the free captain's discretion. If not then its a dispute between neutrals and not our business. Whether or not the rest of the cluster sees fit to label either neutral as a pirate or not has no effect on our rules of engagement. But this discussion has gone on long enough. We will not resolve differences in motivation and ideology here. Omerta Syndicate pilots should act as their conscience dictates as Star Fraction pilots will do likewise. Endless wrangling about the fine distinctions between NBSI and piracy will convince nobody. _________________
Taes Valkiir Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.05 01:52:00 - [73] Edited by: Taes Valkiir on 05/10/2006 01:53:09 Originally by: Jasmine Constantine But this discussion has gone on long enough. We will not resolve differences in motivation and ideology here. Omerta Syndicate pilots should act as their conscience dictates as Star Fraction pilots will do likewise. Endless wrangling about the fine distinctions between NBSI and piracy will convince nobody. How fitting that once a legitimate argument is raised, it is suddenly paramount that the issue cannot be resolved. Is this the end of the Star Fraction's ferverent arguing of freespace ideology? Will you now lay down arms? If you believe we are all to do as our conscience dictates, then it strikes me that there is no need for this revolution. Indeed, if Omerta is to do as it pleases, then cannot the Kimotoro Directive do as it pleases? And the Caldari State as well? Perhaps even Band of Brothers? Ah, but this rhetoric is somewhat flawed, as I cannot criticize you for declaring war on any so-called "pigdog alliances" (who, perhaps, are free do as their conscience dicates?) if only for the very fact that the Star Fraction is, indeed, free to do as its conscience dictates. Interesting. Originally by: Jasmine Constantine All the difference in the world depending on whether the "pirate" in question was -10 to us of course. If so, then they are a target at the free captain's discretion. If not then its a dispute between neutrals and not our business. Whether or not the rest of the cluster sees fit to label either neutral as a pirate or not has no effect on our rules of engagement. Of course, and rightly understood. On the flip side of the coin, if that innocent hauler happened to be -10 to you, you would join the pirate in the destruction of the vessel. Fascinating, isn't it, just how much your point of view can determine the "rightness" and "wrongness" of your actions. In a way, NBSI strikes me as a potential logical conclusion of your revolution. If nullsec is lawless, then who will say who I can and cannot shoot? The Star Fraction, in saying it is wrong to shoot neutrals, is bringing law and order to freespace. You would say, of course, that you do not enforce these "laws," if i may be so bold to call them such. However, you do enforce them. Every time you set a corporation or alliance to -10, you are enforcing the ideology (yes, laws) of the Star Fraction. You are declaring their actions to be wrong, and are enforcing your opinion of their actions. Is that not what you damn the very territorial alliances you claim to be the antithesis of for doing? They have set themselves up as enforcers of what is right and what is wrong in their eyes. You have done the same. Some would say that I am not taking my own advice, that I am looking at the cluster in terms of black and white. Perhaps I am. However, I think I am simply looking at the black of the alliances and the white of the Star Fraction and refuse to see them strictly as such. There is much more gray than they would have you think. I am through playing devil's advocate. I seek discussion, not debate; I urge you to think, not assume. [I shall see you in the sky.] _________________________________________________________
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.05 01:57:00 - [74] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine We honestly see people like Nikolai as brainwashed into the service of tyranny by pervasive memes and compromised customs - why else does an otherwise rational posthuman dwell forever on the sins of past centuries and a meaningless hunk of rock and tawdry scrap of nationalist pride? And I honestly see you as brainwashed by Jade into the service of her mindless crusade. See? I can disregard everything you say based on claims of "brainwashing" as easily as you can claim it of me. It doesn't make the argument any more substantial, legitimate, or relevant. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Tatsue Nuko Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 05:19:00 - [75] Originally by: Taes Valkiir In a way, NBSI strikes me as a potential logical conclusion of your revolution. If nullsec is lawless, then who will say who I can and cannot shoot? So, just like Nooey, the definition of an innocent depends on someone having planted a flag of "law" in the area? Now, EC-P8R is not FoF sovereignty, it is ISS sovereignty. It is "lawless" insofar as CONCORD is concerned, being given a null rating by them. It is not lawless insofar as ISS are concerned. The question, however, is why you have a need for a "law" to recognize someone as neutral and therefore, in the absense of provocation, not a worthy target? Why is CONCORDs word scripture? Originally by: Taes Valkiir The Star Fraction, in saying it is wrong to shoot neutrals, is bringing law and order to freespace. Pointing out the illogical and counter-productive nature of unprovoked aggression on trade lanes is lawmaking? I believe you are confusing the subject. Originally by: Taes Valkiir You would say, of course, that you do not enforce these "laws," if i may be so bold to call them such. However, you do enforce them. Every time you set a corporation or alliance to -10, you are enforcing the ideology (yes, laws) of the Star Fraction. You are declaring their actions to be wrong, and are enforcing your opinion of their actions. Considering that the general requierement for someone to be set at -10 by Star Fraction is aggression without compensation, your statement rings hollow. We are not "enforcing our opinion", we are doing unto others as they do unto us. We are also driving home the point that a conflict that is none of our business is none of our business, another reason why we refuse to be the shining knights and shepherds. We do not see ourselves as fit to be the judges just as we don't see anyone as fit to be the judges, which is precisely the reason to let other people's conflicts be their conflicts. One man's "pirate" is another's "freedom fighter", and one man's "friendly neighbor" is the other man's "hostile raiding party". We only "judge" people in the one and only jurisdiction an individual can ever have - their dealings with oneself. If someone agresses against us or prepares a cage of slavery against us, we will do what is necessary for us and ours. If someone agresses against someone else, we can well have opinions but it is only when they are an enemy that it can be called our business. Either way, I did not quite realize that Omerta considered itself teachers in nullsec. Although I would point out that just that line is one that so far I have only seen self-admitted pirates use. (Which is, admittedly, not quite a damning argument, since guilt by association is weak, but I would like to have it pointed out to you.) In general, though, what nullsec needs is not necessarily more "teachers" to the general population. It is more "teachers" to the empires and territorial monopolists. Even if I were to buy your "teacher" line, which I don't, I would point out that the comfortable opportune targets you choose are not the one's in the greatest need of being "educated". Go teach the exclusionists that their territorial exclusion zones are void instead, and I will applaud you. Then you'll be doing something good, for a change.
Taes Valkiir Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.05 06:26:00 - [76] Originally by: Tatsue Nuko In general, though, what nullsec needs is not necessarily more "teachers" to the general population. It is more "teachers" to the empires and territorial monopolists. Even if I were to buy your "teacher" line, which I don't, I would point out that the comfortable opportune targets you choose are not the one's in the greatest need of being "educated". Go teach the exclusionists that their territorial exclusion zones are void instead, and I will applaud you. Then you'll be doing something good, for a change. First, I specifically said that Omerta did not claim the role of the teacher. However, I would point out that the Black Rabbits are currently engaging so-called comfortable and opportune targets in an attempt to prove to those innocents that the Kimotoro Directive cannot protect them. And if memory serves correctly ... Originally by: Tatsue Nuko End of the matter for Omerta is this, though: you're murderers. That's all. The Black Rabbits may be murderers too, but they are killing the right people, with many of the right reasons. The gulf between the two of you is vast and in their favour. ... you have applauded them. Interesting. That said, this isn't about the moral high ground you are so determined to keep. To hell with that. The Omerta Syndicate is an organization bent on revenge. We never claimed otherwise. Call us murderers, call us outlaws, but never call us cowards. [see you in the sky.] _________________________________________________________
Vaslav Tchitcherine Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 06:28:00 - [77] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari And I honestly see you as brainwashed by Jade into the service of her mindless crusade. Jade and Tats offered to help me 'relax' if I signed up... they're so purdy... -- There is quite frankly too much personal history and vitriol being tossed around in this thread for anyone to make a meaningful contribution. As such, I doubt anyone will take any notice of this post. v. jf \| won't somebody think of the pandas?
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.05 06:49:00 - [78] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Beringe I, for one, am seeing Star Fraction's efforts as increasingly anti-humanitarian. As always, fighting for ideals first and people second results in tragedy. If you really wanted nothing but freedom, you would be leading by example, creating just such a society (or lack of one). You do not fix a broken system by destroying it. You don't fix a broken system by getting used to it either. Get too comfortable and soon the irritations fade away and you can't even see the bars of your prison any longer. But its still a prison and you are still a slave. The difference between a prison and an apartment is whether the occupant ever wants to go outside. If you accept your limited freedom, paint the walls, make your cell nice and cozy, it becomes a rent free apartment with a 24 hour doormen, food service staff, and free access to a gym. The essence of freedom is choice. Including the freedom to accept one's cell and thank the warden. You're not knocking down the cell doors to "free" the prisoners. You're destroying their homes and disrupting their comfortable lives.
Hulemand Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 06:58:00 - [79] Originally by: Cipher7 The difference between a prison and an apartment is whether the occupant ever wants to go outside. If you accept your limited freedom, paint the walls, make your cell nice and cozy, it becomes a rent free apartment with a 24 hour doormen, food service staff, and free access to a gym. The essence of freedom is choice. Including the freedom to accept one's cell and thank the warden. You're not knocking down the cell doors to "free" the prisoners. You're destroying their homes and disrupting their comfortable lives. You wont know true freedom untill you have tasted it. Yes you might accept your conditions, even grow to live with them, maybe even like it! Security is a basic need for many, and so they settle with that they have, not knowing what they actually can obtain. We want them all to taste, first then can they decide!
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.10.05 07:12:00 - [80] Originally by: Hulemand Originally by: Cipher7 The difference between a prison and an apartment is whether the occupant ever wants to go outside. If you accept your limited freedom, paint the walls, make your cell nice and cozy, it becomes a rent free apartment with a 24 hour doormen, food service staff, and free access to a gym. The essence of freedom is choice. Including the freedom to accept one's cell and thank the warden. You're not knocking down the cell doors to "free" the prisoners. You're destroying their homes and disrupting their comfortable lives. You wont know true freedom untill you have tasted it. Yes you might accept your conditions, even grow to live with them, maybe even like it! Security is a basic need for many, and so they settle with that they have, not knowing what they actually can obtain. We want them all to taste, first then can they decide! Nobody can give anybody freedom or rights. Freedom is taken, not given.
Hulemand Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 07:22:00 - [81] Originally by: Cipher7 Nobody can give anybody freedom or rights. Freedom is taken, not given. Freedom is for the most stolen across the universe, and the thiefs will not give it up. True, the slave might takehis freedom, but likely for the cost of his life. You need to help the slaved by removing the slaver, give him the oppotunity to choose freedom.
Scorpio Dantes Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 07:29:00 - [82] Edited by: Scorpio Dantes on 05/10/2006 07:31:00 Originally by: Cipher7 Nobody can give anybody freedom or rights. Freedom is taken, not given. This thread is so far off track, that I don't feel the least compunction in giving it one more nudge. I would posit that man is born free, and with certain innate rights. He can be deprived of these things only by force, fraud, or willing surrender. Freedom is not something that has to be taken or earned - it is our natural state. Likewise, rights do not spring from the pen of a lawmaker, or dribble out from the mouth of a king, but are part of who we are - completely inseparable from the human condition. Woe to those who surrender their birthright in the name of comfort and security, and death to those vandals of the soul who seek to deny its existence. A semantic difference perhaps, but an important one, I think. ________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 13:40:00 - [83] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari And I honestly see you as brainwashed by Jade into the service of her mindless crusade. See? I can disregard everything you say based on claims of "brainwashing" as easily as you can claim it of me. It doesn't make the argument any more substantial, legitimate, or relevant. I know its going to be near on impossible for you to see at this point currently Nikolai. I expect this. Its always the way. But I have faith that in time you'll come to see things differently. And if in the interim we have cause to try to murder each other's current clones then lets have a little faith besides that multiple reincarnation will only feed the tempo of debate. _________________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 13:42:00 - [84] Originally by: Cipher7 Nobody can give anybody freedom or rights. Freedom is taken, not given. Very true. _________________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 13:48:00 - [85] Originally by: Taes Valkiir How fitting that once a legitimate argument is raised, it is suddenly paramount that the issue cannot be resolved. Is this the end of the Star Fraction's ferverent arguing of freespace ideology? Its the end of our fervent arguing of such matters with past companions in Omerta Taes. There is too much pride and personal feeling involved. It does no good. I'll happily discuss these things directly by private channels but will not take part in this argument on the summit. Be well and enjoy whatever you do. _________________
Edward Sarum	Posted - 2006.10.05 13:49:00 - [86] WOW, I thought the Minmatar had the sole rights to blaintly obvious and poorly concieved notions. Sorry but the Star Fraction response read like Minmatatr just replace State with Empire. To the people of the Star Fractions, let me say your motivations are fairly obvious. I perdict a war dec by SF in the Mito Constellation within the next 96 hours. They will spin it as freeing the constellation while they will in fact limit traffic through the area and pretty much attack everything but their allies on sight. I am curious however how much UK charged to train your people to use this type of propoganda and poorly concieved covert manuvering? =============================================== Edward Sarum "God and Empire are all we need..."
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 13:54:00 - [87] I hope you fall into a food processor Slaver scum. _________________
Tomahawk Bliss	Posted - 2006.10.05 14:18:00 - [88] all this talk of Mito made me visit, what a waste of my time. Mito is a crud hole, JF or anyone are welcome to it. the only significant numbers there are from the CDC alliance, everyone else including JF/SF, Kimotoro, Black Rabbits, Krom and Bastage are a vast minority. there was a small Kimotoro fleet escorting a Pezco Apoc at one point but other than that no other group besides CDC alliance was even out in force. Every system has at elast 2 or 3 CDC and some systems have five or more. Obviously CDC use the area as a staging ground. Quite a boring area of space. I was offered a sexual encounter by Davos from Kimotoro, odd that. but other than that and two long range pirates taking pot shots at people nothing of intrest was occuring. I'll make another pass later in a different timezone and see if there is anything worth all this hubub, but so far Mito is a yawn fest with barely any resources or isk making oportunities. the only thing this dirty hole can offer is access to P3N, but that does not make it worth holding. Oh and I found out Krom is selling Hugins, they have an 11 back stock so they say. so contact Trevedian if you want to buy hugins. also don't get in Yuki's way when Vagabons are beng offered, that woman is insane! Tomachu Mito Tourist Gogo Yubari> You can't destroy your enemy with the power of thought alone like many forum-warriors seem to think.
Shanaya Venn Caldari Racing Turtle Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.05 14:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Beringe Sort of like "Be a good boy and eat your revolution, or you won't get any posthumanism!", yeah? HA!!! :::glurg-sputter::: claps hand over mouth, trying not to lose that last sip of Quafe through the nostrils. Disconnecting before the laugh-choke-cough thing gets transmitted live....
Shanaya Venn Caldari Racing Turtle Enterprises	Posted - 2006.10.05 14:46:00 - [90] Originally by: Ituralde ...I saw that despite my former staunch arguments to the contrary, that what Jericho fights for is indeed true. How nice for you, that you had a personal epiphany. But the Truth is like a box. It has many sides. My side is just as valid and true as yours. So bug off. Quote: ...even the most staunch and unquestioning servants can one day be made to see the path of freedom. Bringing forceful enlightenment to the benighted, are we? So who died and made you (or your cohort) ghod? At the risk of being redundant: Bug off. (Random thought: Ideologues make me wanna puke. Especially the stateless kind, who embrace glorified anarchy as their raison d'etre.)
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 15:51:00 - [91] Ah, of course, let me clarify, hauling sludge for the Caldri State is surely indeed a true service and furthers their goals, and I am sure you get paid quite well for it. The point remains that you are still accepting them as your masters by blindly swearing loyalty to them and are thus nothing but one of their little pet dogs they can order around. I am quite sure that you and your nationalist ilk would happily charge into battle were you so ordered by the state and would even take pride in your pointless death simply because someone in the Navy told you to. Unless, of course, you say you would refuse an order by the Navy if they called for you to assist them? Do you see now how blind loyalty inherrently destroys your personal freedoms? Well, I won't fool myself. I am quite aware that such simple logic does not easily make its way into the square heads of the Loyalist extreme. So, I will speak in terms you can understand. Jericho Fraction has and continues to stand up to the most powerful organizations in the galaxy. If you honestly think a hauler pilot telling us to bug off is going to make any sort of difference whatsoever in our resolve, then you are seriously mistaken. Fear is the mind-killer.
Vaslav Tchitcherine Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 16:16:00 - [92] Originally by: Shanaya Venn But the Truth is like a box. It has many sides. My side is just as valid and true as yours. So bug off. Ah, the razor insight of the tautological argument. I had heard that they don't teach logic in Caldari schools -- counterproductive, or some such nonsense -- but I had always dismissed it as arch-Federalist propaganda. Originally by: Shanaya Venn Bringing forceful enlightenment to the benighted, are we? People keep getting this wrong. I almost think it's wilful. We don't bring enlightenment to the benighted. We kill those who deliberately and wilfully obstruct the freedom of others. Originally by: Shanaya Venn (Random thought: Ideologues make me wanna puke. Especially the stateless kind, who embrace glorified anarchy as their raison d'etre.) Strong words. v. jf \| won't somebody think of the pandas?
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.05 16:18:00 - [93] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine I know its going to be near on impossible for you to see at this point currently Nikolai. I expect this. Its always the way. But I have faith that in time you'll come to see things differently. Is this an admission that you're obviously wrong, seeing as you have no actual response to me other than to call me names like brainwashed and blind? I'd like you to state it loudly and clearly for the cameras, please. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 16:55:00 - [94] Myself, I thought it was just an ackgnowledgement that talking logic to you will really get nowhere seeing as how your understanding of logic is far to tainted by your tender embrace(in the gallente sense of the term) of the State's hindquarters to be at all construed as sense. But alas, as Jasmine said, there is hope for everyone. Fear is the mind-killer.
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.05 21:10:00 - [95] Originally by: Vaslav Tchitcherine We don't bring enlightenment to the benighted. We kill those who deliberately and wilfully obstruct the freedom of others. Well, since JF has stated several times in this thread that they will bring the system down, despite people's wishes, does that not mean you are taking away their freedom of choice? Ergo, should you not kill yourselves? Seriously, everyone obstructs freedom, in one way or another. A child being reared has its freedom taken away. Freedom to murder, steal and destroy is generally limited by society, yes? And don't give me that "its okay as long as noone is harmed" crap, either. That's just a matter of perspective. Just more contradictive rethoric. You don't "stand up to the most powerful organizations in the galaxy". You, like most individuals who wish to cram their point of view down other's throats, are simply picking on those who are smaller than you are. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari Gilead's Bullet Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.05 21:22:00 - [96] Originally by: Ituralde Myself, I thought it was just an ackgnowledgement that talking logic to you will really get nowhere [...] Disappointing to see that the mighty intellectuals of Star Fraction are too scared to actually find out by listening to me. But that's alright, when you're not scared of a discussion anymore, you can contact us any tome. Nuvolari out. --------------------- Originally by: Herko Kerghans Nik = win. Period. Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 21:35:00 - [97] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Disappointing to see that the mighty intellectuals of Star Fraction are too scared to actually find out by listening to me. But that's alright, when you're not scared of a discussion anymore, you can contact us any tome. Nuvolari out. What discussion Nikolai? You simply asserted that we were brainwashed drones of Jade, while I certainly believe you a brainwashed drone of the State? Not much room for the finer points of debate and rhetoric there really. There comes a time when persuasion with words must give way to persuasion with firepower and martial courage. We are immortals Nikolai, we never really die, and our reincarnations are nothing much more than the punctionation marks at the end of a particularly pertinent point. Scared of discussion in general? No. Aware that discussion with you is pointless. Yes. We don't even speak the same language you and I. _________________
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 21:36:00 - [98] Originally by: Beringe Just more contradictive rethoric. You don't "stand up to the most powerful organizations in the galaxy". You, like most individuals who wish to cram their point of view down other's throats, are simply picking on those who are smaller than you are. History is your friend. _________________
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.05 22:02:00 - [99] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine History is your friend. I remember a time when Jericho fought for a free society in the north, making themselves a shining beacon of human potential against those who would rather isolate themselves and make isk. I remember being a little worried that some of the more fanatical idealism might bring them to dark places, but took solace in the fact that they all seemed to have their heads screwed on right. I remember when I was in the JQA senate and we were getting flak from JF for our insular nature. It never came to blows, because JF was, back then, inheritly reasonable, and never saw us as a major threat. Sadly, we were never able to open our borders, and now that alliance is gone. Is that the history you're talking about? I don't ever recall Jericho Fraction fighting someone that could seriously hurt them. After all, you are nomadic now, aren't you? With nothing to defend, nothing to lose. We've certainly heard enough about how little it means for a pod-pilot to be killed (and damn the crew on board). The most noble thing you've probably done since the old days is when you fought alongside Ushra'Khan agains the CVA. I don't care to say if you fought on the side of right, but at least you had allied yourself with those who had something to lose. Perhaps that was the history you were talking about? Please, enlighten me on what sort of standing up you are talking about. And Gal-Net doesn't count. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 22:12:00 - [100] Originally by: Beringe I remember when I was in the JQA senate and we were getting flak from JF for our insular nature. It never came to blows, because JF was, back then, inheritly reasonable, and never saw us as a major threat. Sadly, we were never able to open our borders, and now that alliance is gone. Familiar story that. "We wanted to open our borders but we never could." If I had a million isk for every time I'd heard that one I'd be very rich indeed. Its the primal excuse, the very definition of minds enslaved by the imperialist dogma exported from the core systems. If you'd wanted to do this thing and had the courage to do it you would have done it. Instead you didn't dare to dream and you failed anyway. Yet still here you are chiding us for taking the steps neccessary to challenge the stasis quo and unendurable treachery against humanities potential. Quote: I don't ever recall Jericho Fraction fighting someone that could seriously hurt them. After all, you are nomadic now, aren't you? With nothing to defend, nothing to lose. We've certainly heard enough about how little it means for a pod-pilot to be killed (and damn the crew on board). Ever wondered why none of our enemies could seriously hurt us Beringe? Maybe just maybe its because we are living the ideals we espouse. We claim no space, we bar no transit, we don't build the fences and dogmatic enclosures in the frontier. We fight the reactionary relics of ages past given malformed birth in the present by twisted memetics. For you to call us on having no place to defend is to show nothing more than the absence of understanding for anything we've ever said. _________________
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.05 22:30:00 - [101] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Familiar story that. "We wanted to open our borders but we never could." If I had a million isk for every time I'd heard that one I'd be very rich indeed. Its the primal excuse, the very definition of minds enslaved by the imperialist dogma exported from the core systems. If you'd wanted to do this thing and had the courage to do it you would have done it. Instead you didn't dare to dream and you failed anyway. Yet still here you are chiding us for taking the steps neccessary to challenge the stasis quo and unendurable treachery against humanities potential. Yes indeed. And if you wanted to knock me off any percieved high ground, that's the way to do it. I don't have any rebuttal for that. Who am I to question you? I'm nobody. I can only hope you see some value in my words and warnings, for I am not your complete antithesis. Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Ever wondered why none of our enemies could seriously hurt us Beringe? Maybe just maybe its because we are living the ideals we espouse. We claim no space, we bar no transit, we don't build the fences and dogmatic enclosures in the frontier. We fight the reactionary relics of ages past given malformed birth in the present by twisted memetics. For you to call us on having no place to defend is to show nothing more than the absence of understanding for anything we've ever said. You build nothing, either. No stations or orbiting harvesters. No homes, no homeland. You're so far removed from those you seek to free that you no longer understand them! No longer understand what then want...or what they need. I may be guilty of doing nothing (in fact, I'm guilty of far worse things than that, as I'm sure you suspect). But what I'm hearing from the Fraction now is bordering on madness. The progression from your past to your present is quite alarming from my perspective. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.05 22:53:00 - [102] Originally by: Beringe You build nothing, either. No stations or orbiting harvesters. No homes, no homeland. You're so far removed from those you seek to free that you no longer understand them! No longer understand what then want...or what they need. We build ships Beringe. Members of the Star Fraction movement are not called "free captains" for show. The starship is the symbol and actuality of freedom. Anyone in the planetary populations currently suffering under the yoke of failed imperialist systems and administrative corruption need only turn their eyes skywards to see the future. Its out there for the taking, freedom to be won, but a vast and violent renewal of the human spirit is required. We know that the systems of territorial control and imperial xenophobia don't work. They don't serve the interests of human potential. How else could the Empire hold billions enslaved by chain and drug, or the State crush the spirit of its own sons and daughters? Quote: I may be guilty of doing nothing (in fact, I'm guilty of far worse things than that, as I'm sure you suspect). But what I'm hearing from the Fraction now is bordering on madness. The progression from your past to your present is quite alarming from my perspective. Your conscience is your own affair Beringe. Many fractionists have a colourful past and have come from nbsi organisations. But what you categorise as madness is hope and a daring facility to dream of a better future. Perhaps we are mad to start out on this road for most hands are turned against us and even if we are successful our names will doubtless live in infamy in the records of fallen tyrants. But there is a fine line between madness and inspiration and its better to try to break the stasis strangling our future than meekly accept it. _________________
Shintoko Akahoshi Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.06 00:36:00 - [103] These things always bring people out of the woodwork to argue that things are fine just the way they are. Attempts are made to either blow off what's being said as naive, to argue with extreme eruditeness (hint: when I was in Jericho Fraction, I painted the names of people who said "ergo" on rounds of barrage ammunition) against what was said, or to argue that the Star Fraction really are just a bunch of terrorists that want to see everyone burn. Thing is, those things never end up working. They never have, so it's really just primo futility to keep trying them. Instead, why not try and show that you're right and they're wrong. No, not by arguing some more. C'mon, how many people do you really think read all the arguments. Seriously. By actually proving that the system you're defending works. Take this argument against the State. Some big, nasty things have been said about the Beloved State, and its Beloved Megacorporations. You can travel to quite a few areas (say, Mito, since it's in the news lately) and see that things aren't well in hand. So, make the system work. Think of it as a challenge. Pick an area, doesn't have to be big, that needs improvement, and work within the State system to clean it up. Do that, and you'll have the gratitude of millions. You'll have the admiration of all your fellow Citizens. And you'll have something you can wave around to people like the Star Fraction. Something you can use to prove that things would be better if they just moved along. 'Cos, what's the alternative? Making more JF pilots paint your name on rounds of barrage ammo? The Red Mom of WarÖ
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.06 03:41:00 - [104] Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi (hint: when I was in Jericho Fraction, I painted the names of people who said "ergo" on rounds of barrage ammunition) Hah Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi to argue that the Star Fraction really are just a bunch of terrorists that want to see everyone burn. I honestly really don't think so, or I wouldn't bother arguing. Originally by: Shintoko Akahoshi Thing is, those things never end up working. They never have, so it's really just primo futility to keep trying them. Instead, why not try and show that you're right and they're wrong. You're right. Just arguing is futile, and cowardly, and counterproductive. That's why I'm in the business of trying to create, not exactly utopias, but better worlds - out there, in lawless space. Not with much success so far, but perhaps one day. Happily, my corporation's alliance record is not public, so you can't scoff at my failures. But we're not done yet. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Edward Sarum	Posted - 2006.10.07 00:10:00 - [105] The sacred texts tell us you shall know if the words are a prophet are true by if a prophecy comes to pass. My first prophecy has come to pass... Originally by: Edward Sarum WOW, I thought the Minmatar had the sole rights to blaintly obvious and poorly concieved notions. Sorry but the Star Fraction response read like Minmatatr just replace State with Empire. To the people of the Star Fractions, let me say your motivations are fairly obvious. I perdict a war dec by SF in the Mito Constellation within the next 96 hours. They will spin it as freeing the constellation while they will in fact limit traffic through the area and pretty much attack everything but their allies on sight. I am curious however how much UK charged to train your people to use this type of propoganda and poorly concieved covert manuvering? Know therefore that my other words are true as well. Star Fraction no longer can fool the people of the cluster, God has revealed your darkness to the light. Know that ALL of your deeds will be known soon and that you have no secrets no matter what you believe. You are an open book to those that will open their mind and look, your noble sentiments hide the evil in your heart, but even those sentiments cannot hide the truth any longer, the Light of God will come. =============================================== Edward Sarum "God and Empire are all we need..."
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.08 23:10:00 - [106] Originally by: Edward Sarum Know therefore that my other words are true as well. Star Fraction no longer can fool the people of the cluster, God has revealed your darkness to the light. Know that ALL of your deeds will be known soon and that you have no secrets no matter what you believe. You are an open book to those that will open their mind and look, your noble sentiments hide the evil in your heart, but even those sentiments cannot hide the truth any longer, the Light of God will come. What is any revolutionary movement if it doesn't have a few religious nutters to doomsay the consequences? Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains. _________________
Karl Mattar Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.09 02:25:00 - [107] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains. I have a secret. You can kill us all day long and there will we still be. You simply can't kill us, and you can't stop us, and you can't make us turn from the State. Oh, the cat's out of the bag now. Have a nice day. :)
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.09 02:40:00 - [108] Originally by: Karl Mattar Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains. I have a secret. You can kill us all day long and there will we still be. You simply can't kill us, and you can't stop us, and you can't make us turn from the State. Oh, the cat's out of the bag now. Have a nice day. :) So your strategy is ... keep dying and claim the moral high ground? How very transcendent of you. _________________
Karl Mattar Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.09 02:52:00 - [109] Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Originally by: Karl Mattar Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Seriously, if you have "secrets" speak them aloud - otherwise we'll be happy to categorise you with the Caldari nationalist windbags dying in droves against our Free Captains. I have a secret. You can kill us all day long and there will we still be. You simply can't kill us, and you can't stop us, and you can't make us turn from the State. Oh, the cat's out of the bag now. Have a nice day. :) So your strategy is ... keep dying and claim the moral high ground? How very transcendent of you. Why thank you. And it's not moral high ground I'm claiming. It's victory. You can't win. You lost all credibility when you paid Concord to allow you to commit to a war. If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval. The moment you kow-towed to Concord you lost.
Karl Mattar Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.09 03:28:00 - [110] No.
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.10.09 03:28:00 - [111] Originally by: Karl Mattar If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval. Or... they could lose all their ships in high-sec because the amount of firepower put on them would obliterate battleships in seconds. On the contrary, I think the very fact that they were able to bribe CONCORD proves at least one of their crazy posthumanist points. No?
Jasmine Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.09 03:30:00 - [112] Originally by: Karl Mattar If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval. The moment you kow-towed to Concord you lost. I see so what you are saying is that its impossible (in your eyes) for us to ever attack you since if we bribe concord to look the other way that means we've failed before we begin? I'm wondering if we've got the right targets to be honest. You are sounding more like an obscure pacifist religious cult rather than a Caldari State Militia. _________________
Ituralde Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.09 03:33:00 - [113] I wonder if the entire Caldari Navy maintains such an interesting policy. Hide and insult from a safe distance. What a spectacular way to win a war. Let me let you in on a little secret. Sit in a station all you like, enjoy your gallente-style pleasures (I don't mean that Dominix, either) and see how effective you are as a support for the Caldari state. Guess what, we don't ever have to leave. Maybe you did not read the memo, but we fully intend to remove you as an effective organization. If you are content to sit uselessly in a station constantly, then I guess you can call this a victory for yourself too. I sure hope APEX's arrival strengthens your resolve. Else, I hope for the Navy's sake that they never have to call on their Independent Navy Reserve. And you don't like that we paid off Concord? Does that mean that it would take a full Concord Battlefleet as escort for you to risk combat? Amazing, given that you insult us for not giving you even odds in every engagement. You really are an utter hypocrite and a fool. Unless you of course mean that you would otherwise enter Low Security space - which is laughable given the amount of trouble we have getting any of you to undock - Even your Carrier - in the first place. Fear is the mind-killer.
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.10.09 03:37:00 - [114] Damn, that was fast Karl. We'll have to agree to disagree. By the way, if you couldn't see it coming already, the point I was going to make is that if they can be bribed, CONCORD really doesn't give a crap about you or your alliance. But then you're gonna say, "oh, but we don't need CONCORD." I'm sure the liberals are going to love that.
Father Abel Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.09 04:38:00 - [115] Quote: But then you're gonna say, "oh, but we don't need CONCORD." I'm sure the liberals are going to love that. Concord can be quite a nuisance. Consider our first engagement with the Black Rabbits, for instance. Concord penalized our security rating and had the sentries turn on us, even though it is clearly lawful to attack Guristas at any time, anywhere. If the Rabbits truly are a subsidiary of the Guristas, then this should not have been an issue. And the control tower at the Otsasai CNAP was sleeping on the job, too. They allowed Guristas to dock and maintenance their ships inside the hangar. Don't you just hate bureaucratic snafus? _____________________ Father Abel - Lieutenant Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive "Private property makes a free man a free man."
Logan Xerxes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.09 11:54:00 - [116] The State and the the Kimotoro Directive have my full backing in this affair. Unfortunately, I am currently out in the boder worlds gaining combat expiriance and i'm unable to help the state directly. All for the good of many! "Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion." -Sun Tzu It's all fun and games, until you feel the second hand on your shoulder... - Tirg
Atandros Gallente Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.09 12:33:00 - [117] Originally by: Karl Mattar Why thank you. And it's not moral high ground I'm claiming. It's victory. ...It is? Huddling in stations to hide from our guns? For an organization called the "Caldari Navy Independent Reserve"? Victory...? Quote: You can't win. You lost all credibility when you paid Concord to allow you to commit to a war. If JF was truly so evolved, you'd be fighting this war true to your ideals, and that would mean you'd be saying "screw Concord" and fight us without their approval. The moment you kow-towed to Concord you lost. That would be true if we were slavishly committed to abstract virtues that had no relationship to reality. But our ideal is a vision: we wish to free the future from the chains of the past and rid humanity of the cancer of statism. And we are acting in the service of our ideal if we strive to bring it about. One does not halt a juggernaut by throwing oneself in front of it in the name of some absurd and hazy principles. Remember, monsieur Mattar, that it is our goal above all else to halt or impede the juggernaut, and we thus use any means at our disposal to do so. -------
Sable Schroedinger Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.09 13:18:00 - [118] One does not need to Kill or Destroy you in order to defeat you. Yes you will cling to your ideals and history. Nothing will change with you. However, humanity will see that they do not need to fear you and will see they have the choice to reach higher -------------------------------------------- Nothing is as cruel as the righteousness of innocents
Kilwen	Posted - 2006.10.10 17:29:00 - [119] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger One does not need to Kill or Destroy you in order to defeat you. Yes you will cling to your ideals and history. Nothing will change with you. However, humanity will see that they do not need to fear you and will see they have the choice to reach higher Humanity never needed to fear us, we seek to help those around us acheve THEIR dreams. Which differs from you, who seek to make those around you realize YOUR dreams, willingly or not. Would not the proper course of action be to show people the light of your dreams, not show yourselves as agressors to their beliefs, making people cling tighter to them?
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.10 17:55:00 - [120] Originally by: Sable Schroedinger However, humanity will see that they do not need to fear you and will see they have the choice to reach higher Ah, wordgames. I loves those. Don't you mean posthumanity? Haha, I'm here all week. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Van Cleef Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:27:00 - [121] For all the fancy talk and witty retorts, Star Fraction is no different than The Black Rabbits in that they are claiming State territory and declared war against the Directive to effect that. The "Designs" for the territory are different, mind you, but the end result is the same. The Mito Constellation is not yours to take, and not ours to give to you. CAIN came to Mito to allow the Caldari people to thrive and be free from the constant pirate tyranny that infests the area. We have fought many battles to that effect and the Constellation has improved greatly. The recent duo war dec by The Black Rabbits and Star Fraction simply means that pirates will now have the opportunity to once again return in force. I ask Star Fraction, is this a war for Mito or a war against the Directive? You claim that you are here to free Mito from our imperialist ways - and yet we are not the government. If we fall, do you plan on staying in Mito to help the enlightment of its people - or are they back on their own to fend against the pirate menace? ------------------------------------------------ CEO and Admiral of the Fleet Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive Serve the State Join Channel CAINCOM
Unuthiel Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:35:00 - [122] Quote: Don't you understand yet Nikolai, its not our freedom we're fighting for. It's yours. Ahhhh, apparently you are in fact fighting for the right to indulge your messiah complex. Perhaps you might have a more receptive audience on the finges of the Empire.

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