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A question regarding the privacy of EVE-mail.

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Indahmawar Fazmarai 3743	Posted - 2015.02.14 11:52:59 - [1] - Quote I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Mag's the united 19030	Posted - 2015.02.14 11:55:19 - [2] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. I just read all your mails and you really have nothing to worry about. That rash should clear up in a week. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16097	Posted - 2015.02.14 11:56:11 - [3] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3743	Posted - 2015.02.14 12:08:03 - [4] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16098	Posted - 2015.02.14 12:12:58 - [5] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. I don't know what else you thought full API meant? TBH this is pretty common knowledge, and given that GMs can also read your evemails, I can't think why anyone would ever put anything personal into one. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3743	Posted - 2015.02.14 12:26:40 - [6] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. I don't know what else you thought full API meant? TBH this is pretty common knowledge, and given that GMs can also read your evemails, I can't think why anyone would ever put anything personal into one. Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years and never needing to give a full API to anyone. Now, I don't know whether I ever said anything personal on evemail, and also don't know if that is being warned anywhere by CCP. But I am upset that such a delicate matter is just left to be learned by chance. I never wrote evemail thinking that every last recruiter in EVE could read them. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Kaarous Aldurald Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 11771	Posted - 2015.02.14 12:31:33 - [7] - Quote It's not "by chance", there's a freaking tab for mail on the API page. It could not be more obvious. Stop trying to manufacture controversy. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16100	Posted - 2015.02.14 12:32:44 - [8] - Quote As you yourself say, you ignored the issue. That's not the same as it being any kind of deep dirty secret. Anyway, now you've asked about something you were concerned about, you've found out the information you needed, and you can act on your knowledge. Be careful that this doesn't set some kind of precedent you might later come to regret. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 8897	Posted - 2015.02.14 13:15:37 - [9] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years yes, even i knew that and im hammered most of the time "I'm also quite confident that you are laughing and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers." =]I[=
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 205	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:35:29 - [10] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. I don't know what else you thought full API meant? TBH this is pretty common knowledge, and given that GMs can also read your evemails, I can't think why anyone would ever put anything personal into one. Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years and never needing to give a full API to anyone. Now, I don't know whether I ever said anything personal on evemail, and also don't know if that is being warned anywhere by CCP. But I am upset that such a delicate matter is just left to be learned by chance. I never wrote evemail thinking that every last recruiter in EVE could read them. so it's everyones fault that you decided to read feck all over the last 6 years. you gave your full api key to poeple and couldn't be bothered asking why they need it. this is standard stuff in EVE recruitment, infact checks into players go a lot deeper than that. stop acting like you didn't know, i refuse to believe this shite.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3743	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:44:59 - [11] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years and never needing to give a full API to anyone. Now, I don't know whether I ever said anything personal on evemail, and also don't know if that is being warned anywhere by CCP. But I am upset that such a delicate matter is just left to be learned by chance. I never wrote evemail thinking that every last recruiter in EVE could read them. so it's everyones fault that you decided to read feck all over the last 6 years. you gave your full api key to poeple and couldn't be bothered asking why they need it. this is standard stuff in EVE recruitment, infact checks into players go a lot deeper than that. stop acting like you didn't know, i refuse to believe this shite. Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them? The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 91	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:46:27 - [12] - Quote My standard rule of thumb is pretty simple - if you don't want other people to know something, don't write it down. If you write it down, chances are, it will come back to bite you at some point. And let's be honest, it's not like Eve Mail was ever secret - the GMs can read them as can, I expect, the database team, the developers, and anyone else who has a modicum of access to anything at all at CCP. They were never private to begin with - just like your email and your IM's and your facebook messages. If you actually sat back and thought about all the people who have access to the items you put online, you'd never post anything again. Our network engineers could, in theory, read this post I am writing, as soon as I hit send, and it gets bounced through the company proxy server. If you just assume that anything you post anywhere on the internet will be readable by everyone in the world and will never ever get totally deleted, you'd make smarter decisions about this stuff. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 91	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:49:45 - [13] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them? What part of "A full API gives access to ALL evemails in a person's mailbox" is confusing you? You obviously understand the concept of a full API or you wouldn't be worried about it. Is the inbox part of the mailbox? Why yes, yes it is. As is the sent items box. The logic here is not herculean - as a picture, it pretty much paints itself. For the record, it also gives access to evemails they have sent to the trash bin,. assuming it hasn't been emptied. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Memphis Baas 161	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:50:52 - [14] - Quote Just like with real emails, they're possibly readable by a slew of routers that the message passes through, and by the NSA, and your recipient friend has a permanent copy and can fully post all your private info and photos on the internets for everyone to see. So, do not send private information through the in-game email. If you have, already, delete it, and ask your friend to delete it. He/she probably will, if they're your friend. And if they don't, a bunch of recruiters and directors, who are probably so swamped by join requests and corporate drama issues that they don't even have time to eat, may see your in-game mail and disregard it. They're typically looking for signs that you're a spy, corp thief, or awoxer, really, and probably won't even care to read whatever private info you've disclosed.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1110	Posted - 2015.02.14 14:51:18 - [15] - Quote On that same note: any 3rd party program that makes use of API is probably collecting info on your alts (which characters are added, your standings, money trails etc), your POS locations, any supers you may be building and whatnot.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4277	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:11:55 - [16] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. having 'no expectation of privacy' regarding any info you send through the service is somewhere in the tos or eula few people read those, and i don't consider it entirely their fault if they're ignorant of the information shared by the api i knew about the api and was still surprised when one of my mails turned up on a blog
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3743	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:12:01 - [17] - Quote Memphis Baas wrote: Just like with real emails, they're possibly readable by a slew of routers that the message passes through, and by the NSA, and your recipient friend has a permanent copy and can fully post all your private info and photos on the internets for everyone to see. So, do not send private information through the in-game email. If you have, already, delete it, and ask your friend to delete it. He/she probably will, if they're your friend. And if they don't, a bunch of recruiters and directors, who are probably so swamped by join requests and corporate drama issues that they don't even have time to eat, may see your in-game mail and disregard it. They're typically looking for signs that you're a spy, corp thief, or awoxer, really, and probably won't even care to read whatever private info you've disclosed. Maybe we're losing focus here. What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4277	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:12:44 - [18] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: On that same note: any 3rd party program that makes use of API is probably collecting info on your alts (which characters are added, your standings, money trails etc), your POS locations, any supers you may be building and whatnot. nah
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1110	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:14:36 - [19] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Maybe we're losing focus here. What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. Not really. Everyone's focus is "well duh" and "this took you 6 years to figure out?".
Erica Dusette Isogen 5 37446	Posted - 2015.02.14 15:58:12 - [20] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. I'm not much of a fan of it. Sure, over time I have discussed personal matters with friends in EVE, I often speak of family or personal goings-on in the forums threads I hang out in, and in mails I often go deeper into it with friends I trust. Like my dad's recent illness or troubles at work. RL stuff aside, as an RP'er it's also not unusual for me to send or receive mails of a.... err, personal nature Personal to my character, that is. I've had comments from leadership in prior corps about the contents of my inbox lmao, and as I mentioned in my corp's channel just recently in fact, if a complete non-RPer looked into my inbox they would prolly freak the **** out. So yeah, these days I never give full API access. You'll get my character details, wallet and contacts but that's about it. Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again! Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel The Endgame \| Wormhole Diaries
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 612	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:17:29 - [21] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years yes, even i knew that and im hammered most of the time So tempted to indulge in a stereotype @OP You agree to it when you "sign" the EULA and again when you create a full API. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Orlacc 785	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:38:57 - [22] - Quote EULA. Read it so you don't "assume" things. "Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3743	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:43:23 - [23] - Quote Erica Dusette wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. I'm not much of a fan of it. Sure, over time I have discussed personal matters with friends in EVE, I often speak of family or personal goings-on in the forums threads I hang out in, and in mails I often go deeper into it with friends I trust. Like my dad's recent illness or troubles at work. RL stuff aside, as an RP'er it's also not unusual for me to send or receive mails of a.... err, personal nature Personal to my character, that is. I've had comments from leadership in prior corps about the contents of my inbox lmao, and as I mentioned in my corp's channel just recently in fact, if a complete non-RPer looked into my inbox they would prolly freak the **** out. So yeah, these days I never give full API access. You'll get my character details, wallet and contacts but that's about it. Oh, but the issue is not my API. It's that anyone who exchanged mails with you, will get your emails along with his if he gives full API. The inbox should not be shared. And in any decent company, quoted mails would be censored before delivering them through API. My outgoing mail regarded as your incoming mail is nobody's business. You can not share it and certanly CCP can't make a shoddy work that forces you to share your inbox without warning everyone writing to you. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3743	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:48:11 - [24] - Quote Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years yes, even i knew that and im hammered most of the time So tempted to indulge in a stereotype @OP You agree to it when you "sign" the EULA and again when you create a full API. Take a stop and breathe deeply. I never created a full API. But anyone who received my mail and created one, shared my mail without my acknowledgement becasue I didn't knew that such thing would happen. If I share my mail, that's my business. If CCP forces you and me to share my mail with your potential employers, that's a serious deal for me. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Erica Dusette Isogen 5 37448	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:54:29 - [25] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Oh, but the issue is not my API. It's that anyone who exchanged mails with you, will get your emails along with his if he gives full API. Yeah I see what you mean there. Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: The inbox should not be shared. Totally agree. But it is what it is, and people in this game are paranoid on a unprecedented scale. They actually want to read peoples personal mails to feel secure and if they could somehow even look into your RL living room I'm sure they prolly would also. Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again! Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel The Endgame \| Wormhole Diaries
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 612	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:54:42 - [26] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years yes, even i knew that and im hammered most of the time So tempted to indulge in a stereotype @OP You agree to it when you "sign" the EULA and again when you create a full API. Take a stop and breathe deeply. I never created a full API. But anyone who received my mail and created one, shared my mail without my acknowledgement becasue I didn't knew that such thing would happen. If I share my mail, that's my business. If CCP forces you and me to share my mail with your potential employers, that's a serious deal for me. The issue is that you didn't read the EULA. Quote: A. Communications Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 280	Posted - 2015.02.14 16:56:38 - [27] - Quote One important thing to note in this discussion is that in American law and cultural coxtext sharing private communication without consent from BOTH involved parties is forbidden. HOWEVER, In Europe, probably including Iceland, the recipient of a message can share and publish it however he wants and with whoever he wants no matter where and from whom the message comes from. The sender has no right to argue about it, unless an NDA has been mutually agreed upon well beforehand. I am pretty sure this feels just as natural to CCP as it does to me, even if it might make Americans uncomfortable. Even without an EULA, european players would be well within their rights to share mails coming from you with their corp mates or recruiters. So, if you want to be sure no one ever publishes your mails, never send any messages to Europe ever.
M'pact Apotheosis of Caledvwich Dirt Nap Squad. 42	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:07:25 - [28] - Quote Godfrey Silvarna wrote: One important thing to note in this discussion is that in American law and cultural coxtext sharing private communication without consent from BOTH involved parties is forbidden. ...and those who are paranoid about such things should have read the EULA. They voluntarily gave away any and all right to privacy when they agreed to it. Like every single MMO out there, anything you type is no longer private. That includes regular chat, "private" chat, and in-game mail. This here's EVE. Just like when you press undock, you should consider your ship already dead ... when you press Enter/Send, you should consider the words you typed already public. And for the record, I'm an American. When I finally do make an *impact* on this universe, it will reverberate across the entirety of it, and no one will be able to truthfully claim they don't know me. - - Until then, I'll just sit quietly over here, minding my own business...
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 3707	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:09:28 - [29] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I guess you probably shouldn't trust people that are so careless in the first place. Generally speaking, I trust smart jerks much more than nice fools. But I don't provide sensitive info to either. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 257	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:13:51 - [30] - Quote EVEMail isn't EMail. Don't use it for personal thing.
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 282	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:22:11 - [31] - Quote M'pact wrote: Godfrey Silvarna wrote: One important thing to note in this discussion is that in American law and cultural coxtext sharing private communication without consent from BOTH involved parties is forbidden. ...and those who are paranoid about such things should have read the EULA. They voluntarily gave away any and all right to privacy when they agreed to it. Like every single MMO out there, anything you type is no longer private. That includes regular chat, "private" chat, and in-game mail. This here's EVE. Just like when you press undock, you should consider your ship already dead ... when you press Enter/Send, you should consider the words you typed already public. And for the record, I'm an American. I am European. I probably wrote that in a bit confusing way. The point of my message was not in reminding people about american law, but about the fact that here in europe the law is completely different and americans have no business arguing about OUR liberty. Only way to extend american law to my home would be to send a conquering army. It is extremely amusing when american corporations and lawyers send email to european citizens with pompous warnings about how they will be sued to hell and back if the contents of the mail are published. Naturally, mail like that will be published with much ridicule and there is nothing they can legally do about it. The same issue comes up often in international communities on the internets, and is always amusing. Just look at how many people try to internet lawyer about evemails published on minerbumping.com for example.
Erica Dusette Isogen 5 37450	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:25:08 - [32] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: EVEMail isn't EMail. Don't use it for personal thing. You could say the same about TS, it's not a secure phone line yet corpies talk about personal stuff on there all the time and can (and are) often recorded while doing so. Ideals are one thing, reality is another, and in every MMO people discuss and share personal stuff via mails, ingame chats, TS, you name it - all the time. The gaming company knows this and has a responsibility to protect their users privacy as best as possible in an environment that is not an ideal world. So when I discovered that here a way i actually provided by the company to breach that privacy it doesn't really sit well with me - especially when we see silly things like access for wormhole mappers API being restricted by CCP to help prevent people from being ganked while farming. I agree with the OP that mail access from API is wrong, but I deal with it personally. Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again! Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel The Endgame \| Wormhole Diaries
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 3708	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:34:23 - [33] - Quote Erica Dusette wrote: The gaming company knows this and has a responsibility to protect their users privacy as best as possible in an environment that is not an ideal world. I disagree. At most they could have the courtesy to remind people that in-game communication is not private, since apparently people make the mistake to assume otherwise. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Erica Dusette Isogen 5 37457	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:44:54 - [34] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Erica Dusette wrote: The gaming company knows this and has a responsibility to protect their users privacy as best as possible in an environment that is not an ideal world. I disagree. At most they could have the courtesy to remind people that in-game communication is not private, since apparently people make the mistake to assume otherwise. Sure, I mean at the end of the day there's nothing stopping me from screenshoting a mail and sending it to a thousand people, or even just forwarding it. But for the company themselves to provide an actual service to facilitate that is pretty damning, IMO. Just my personal opinion, having played a ton of games like most people, and worked in at least one, giving people that access is rather unprecedented and I can fully empathize with some people's discord with it. Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again! Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel The Endgame \| Wormhole Diaries
vccv 4	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:53:23 - [35] - Quote Yea, nobody needs a full api, especially the little half arse corps with only 4-7 people ever on at the same time. Tell them to stuff it. Be careful with the url parties as well.. your corp mates will hax your pc. Common knowledge learned the hard way, you arent alone in that boat. CCP has no responsibility either. Just dont give it out, and make a new one if you did. As for fellow pilots with nefarious intentions outside of game.. label them as isis recruiters and turn them in on ic3 if you find their scripts and wares on your box lol. A new api takes a few min to make, a new ssd is cheap too. Good luck!
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 8907	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:55:16 - [36] - Quote Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years yes, even i knew that and im hammered most of the time So tempted to indulge in a stereotype @OP You agree to it when you "sign" the EULA and again when you create a full API. Tis grand, I do make something of an effort to live up to it "I'm also quite confident that you are laughing and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers." =]I[=
Johan Civire The Lyran Empire 946	Posted - 2015.02.14 17:59:11 - [37] - Quote i`m just eating popcorn, move on please.....
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20792	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:16:37 - [38] - Quote Johan Civire wrote: i`m just eating popcorn, move on please..... Wow, popcorn is so YC 116. Haven't you heard now days it's all about the Tacos. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16106	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:26:12 - [39] - Quote How the hell is there even an arguement about this? "Guys it gets cold and rains a lot in winter and I'm pretty mad about that! Ima sue the government." "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Effect One Vengeful Swan Vengeful Swarm 174	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:47:49 - [40] - Quote Jesus Christ. People think way too highly of their personal information. Tip: No one cares about your life. Stop worrying about insignificant things and enjoy the game. 'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon

CCP Falcon 10637	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:57:17 - [41] - Quote Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system. Exactly the same with any real world email account you own. You can add any disclaimers you want to your email, but in the end, if someone wants to share it, then they can do and it's then up to you to action it or pick up the pieces. If you're dabbling with the API and don't want someone to be able to see mail, then create a custom API rather than giving out your full one. You can do so here. There are perfectly reasonable safeguards in place for you to protect the contents of your inbox, as seen here, and the strings "MailMessages", "MailingLists" and "MailBodies" are quite clearly displayed on the API Key Management page. Quote: "It is safe to provide your API key to applications and web sites as long as you are prepared to allow the application or web site to see your character and corporation information. You can specify which information is accessible for each customizable API key." In addition to this, also see here. you should not be transmitting personal details within the game. The EVE Online client and EVE Gate are there to facilitate gameplay within the EVE Universe, not for you to share personally sensitive materials of yourself or others. Quote: "Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms." Then you can also see here. We have specific rules in our Terms of Service relating to the transmission of personal information of yourself and others within our game client. You shouldn't be doing it. Specfically Article 19: Quote: 19. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriberGÇÖs personal information within the EVE Online game world or website. We specifically say in all of our documents that nothing you transmit within EVE Online via EVEmail or chat is private, because if security or safety concerns arise on our part, or the part of a member of the community, we may need to look at messaging or pass it on to the relevant authorities for action. In short, everyone else in this thread is right. You're forewarned of any privacy issues when you even join the game, let alone create an API key, and it's strongly suggested that you don't share anything that may be of a sensitive nature in the real world when playing EVE. Hope this explains things. CCP Falcon \|\| Community Manager \|\| @CCP_Falcon Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20792	Posted - 2015.02.14 18:58:21 - [42] - Quote Effect One wrote: People think way too highly of their personal information. Tip: No one cares about your life. Maybe you've found that's your personal experience. But tell that to the two people who openly told me recently they used to read my mails regularly for nothing but sh*ts and giggles. Not that it upset me, they're both awesome guys + friends, but it still goes to show that you're wrong. And it was enough to affirm I'm doing the right thing these days by refusing to give a full API. Didn't effect my joining this corp though. Dat vouch. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16107	Posted - 2015.02.14 19:22:49 - [43] - Quote CCP Falcon wrote: Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system. Sometimes it takes a CCP employee to carefully and politely explain that 2+2=4, big is more than small and that fire is hot. Thanks for stepping up. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3744	Posted - 2015.02.14 19:39:46 - [44] - Quote CCP Falcon wrote: Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system. Exactly the same with any real world email account you own. You can add any disclaimers you want to your email, but in the end, if someone wants to share it, then they can do and it's then up to you to action it or pick up the pieces. If you're dabbling with the API and don't want someone to be able to see mail, then create a custom API rather than giving out your full one. You can do so here. There are perfectly reasonable safeguards in place for you to protect the contents of your inbox, as seen here, and the strings "MailMessages", "MailingLists" and "MailBodies" are quite clearly displayed on the API Key Management page. Quote: "It is safe to provide your API key to applications and web sites as long as you are prepared to allow the application or web site to see your character and corporation information. You can specify which information is accessible for each customizable API key." In addition to this, also see here. you should not be transmitting personal details within the game. The EVE Online client and EVE Gate are there to facilitate gameplay within the EVE Universe, not for you to share personally sensitive materials of yourself or others. Quote: "Except for certain information in your Account (discussed below), all transmissions by you to the System are not private. You acknowledge and agree that you have no expectation of privacy regarding communications you make in the Game, whether through private in-Game messaging, during chat, or in chat rooms." Then you can also see here. We have specific rules in our Terms of Service relating to the transmission of personal information of yourself and others within our game client. You shouldn't be doing it. Specfically Article 19: Quote: 19. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriberGÇÖs personal information within the EVE Online game world or website. We specifically say in all of our documents that nothing you transmit within EVE Online via EVEmail or chat is private, because if security or safety concerns arise on our part, or the part of a member of the community, we may need to look at messaging or pass it on to the relevant authorities for action. In short, everyone else in this thread is right. You're forewarned of any privacy issues when you even join the game, let alone create an API key, and it's strongly suggested that you don't share anything that may be of a sensitive nature in the real world when playing EVE. Hope this explains things. Thanks for the clarification. I will repeat that I never created a full API, and certainly will never create one since it would compromise everything everyone ever entrusted me with, knowingly or don't. Dunno why CCP as a company should provide players with that tool, though, but that would be another question. Making EVE corporation recruitment less paranoid and intrusive than RL also would make sense to me... but I may be in a tiny minority here. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Vyl Vit 1049	Posted - 2015.02.14 19:58:12 - [45] - Quote Interesting point. Just because who you wrote to joins a corp which uses this API fascist management system, now anyone who happened to write the hapless player gets their message to him read as well, even though THEY aren't IN this corporation and have no prior knowledge, except in a very general way - meaning if you claim "prior knowledge/no foul" to be safe don't message ANYBODY EVER! Absurdity is hilarious, no? Trust no one as a logical course of action? The only reason we managed to civilize ourselves is because we learned to trust one another. Now, as we ride the decline of civilization into the sunset we see these sorts of conundrums rise up. Hilarious! "What do you think 'Full API' means?" Someone just had to say that. I certainly hope the question wasn't meant philosophically! I can't stop laughin'. Dial 911 for me. WHY WAS IT PEOPLE STAY IN NPC CORPs AGAIN?? bwaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaaaa suck on it purists. Anyone with any sense has already left town.
Effect One Vengeful Swan Vengeful Swarm 175	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:04:29 - [46] - Quote Candi LeMew wrote: Effect One wrote: People think way too highly of their personal information. Tip: No one cares about your life. Maybe you've found that's your personal experience. But tell that to the two people who openly told me recently they used to read my mails regularly for nothing but shts and giggles. Not that it upset me, they're both awesome guys + friends, but it still goes to show that you're wrong. And it was enough to affirm I'm doing the right thing these days by refusing to give a full API. Didn't effect my joining this corp though. Dat vouch. No, people reading your mail 'for **** and giggles' does not prove that people care about your life. Why you would even provide personal information to people by Evemail of all things is beyond me, but there we go. The juxtaposition between you being upset about personal information being viewable to others through Evemail access rights, and you even providing it in an Evemail to complete strangers within a video game in the first place, is quite frankly baffling. 'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20794	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:10:50 - [47] - Quote Effect One wrote: Candi LeMew wrote: Effect One wrote: People think way too highly of their personal information. Tip: No one cares about your life. Maybe you've found that's your personal experience. But tell that to the two people who openly told me recently they used to read my mails regularly for nothing but shts and giggles. Not that it upset me, they're both awesome guys + friends, but it still goes to show that you're wrong. And it was enough to affirm I'm doing the right thing these days by refusing to give a full API. Didn't effect my joining this corp though. Dat vouch. No, people reading your mail 'for **** and giggles' does not prove that people care about your life. Why you would even provide personal information to people by Evemail of all things is beyond me, but there we go. The juxtaposition between you being upset about personal information being viewable to others through Evemail access rights, and you even providing it in an Evemail to complete strangers within a video game in the first place, is quite frankly baffling. I'm not upset, nor was it personal information in my mails. What exactly was being read, well, that's none of your business, only the intended recipient's. I simply believe there's really no point in mail API even being a thing at all. If there was then why isn't every game doing it? In fact most take drastic steps in quite the opposite direction, both from fear of legalities and simple respect for their users. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Serene Repose 2236	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:12:45 - [48] - Quote I know. I shopped yesterday. If I tell someone I shopped, then they could tell someone else I shopped, then there's a strong likelihood people will discover I shop. Oh my. This is too close for comfort. I bought some shoes yesterday. Now, if I tell someone I bought some shoes, TWO bits of information slip that could seriously damage me; I shop and I buy SHOES!! How did things come to this pass? Wait....I just showed concern. Now people know I'm concerned. This gets sticky fast. I'm concerned about....shopping? telling someone I shopped? someone telling someone I shopped someone knowing I shopped, that I wear shoes, buy shoes bought shoes??? Maybe I should pay a security apparatus on obscene amount of money to protect me, and my personal information...like what do I eat, what color of shirts do I like, who's my favorite bowler....EEK! MODERN LIFE SUCKS! But...it's here. Treason never prospers. What is the reason? Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
Jimmy Farrere University of Caille Gallente Federation 15	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:24:25 - [49] - Quote I can 100% see the OP's point here and can only assume that the people saying this is acceptable are still missing the point. I never considered when communicating with someone I fully trust through Eve-mail that their future carelessness (not betrayal) could lead to them revealing personal information about me to entire swathes of people (including a load of people that might not like my in-game persona much!). Indeed, a quick look back through my Eve-mail shows that I've sent people I trust my personal phone number multiple times 'safe' in the knowledge that I would never allow people access to MY full API. This needs addressing in my opinion.
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 585	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:36:03 - [50] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Thanks for the clarification. I will repeat that I never created a full API, and certainly will never create one since it would compromise everything everyone ever entrusted me with, knowingly or don't. Dunno why CCP as a company should provide players with that tool, though, but that would be another question. Making EVE corporation recruitment less paranoid and intrusive than RL also would make sense to me... but I may be in a tiny minority here. Make your own EVE corp and run it however you want. Don't tell others how to run theirs. Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 615	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:38:39 - [51] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: Indeed, a quick look back through my Eve-mail shows that I've sent people I trust my personal phone number multiple times Which is an EULA breach as per CCP Falcons post, specifically: Quote: 19. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriberGÇÖs personal information within the EVE Online game world or website. Any subscriber includes yourself. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Pok Nibin Filial Pariahs 490	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:38:58 - [52] - Quote I wish to personally thank the OP for asking this question, and bringing up this point. I'm happy to learn CCP thinks so little of me, that even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I think I have the measure of these "people" now. Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 7774	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:39:15 - [53] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them? I can see your concern with this. I've never given much thought to the matter as I tend to only receive (hate) mail and not send it. Though there is stuff in some mails I have sent that, while not embarrassing or anything, is stuff I would not want known in general. Maybe CCP should come up with some kind of 'snapmail' that deletes itself after a period of time. It's one thing to expect no privacy if I give my full API to a corp, but it's a little concerning that my privacy will be compromised if somebody else gives theirs. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 585	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:42:22 - [54] - Quote Pok Nibin wrote: I wish to personally thank the OP for asking this question, and bringing up this point. I'm happy to learn CCP thinks so little of me, that even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I think I have the measure of these "people" now. No, you really don't. Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
Pok Nibin Filial Pariahs 490	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:43:20 - [55] - Quote Primary This Rifter wrote: Pok Nibin wrote: I wish to personally thank the OP for asking this question, and bringing up this point. I'm happy to learn CCP thinks so little of me, that even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I think I have the measure of these "people" now. No, you really don't. BS Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3749	Posted - 2015.02.14 20:49:24 - [56] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them? I can see your concern with this. I've never given much thought to the matter as I tend to only receive (hate) mail and not send it. Though there is stuff in some mails I have sent that, while not embarrassing or anything, is stuff I would not want known in general. Maybe CCP should come up with some kind of 'snapmail' that deletes itself after a period of time. It's one thing to expect no privacy if I give my full API to a corp, but it's a little concerning that my privacy will be compromised if somebody else gives theirs. Mr Epeen Kudos on getting the point, a rare thing in this thread. CCP's attitude is perfectly logical (they can't be responsible of what they can't control) but the API system, what it can be used for and how that could end for someone unaware, it's CCP's doing. Is the mail necessary for API? I don't know for sure. I think that a spy will never use the same account for getting his spy-mail, so it is a lame way to check prospect recruits. Yet then, in EVE things can go so horribly bad that nobody risks telling his corp mates that a spy infiltrated because cheking his evemails was a lame thing to do. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Gilbaron Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda 1627	Posted - 2015.02.14 21:17:25 - [57] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: EVEMail isn't EMail. Don't use it for personal thing. you shouldn't be using EMail for personal stuff aswell :D Build your empire ! Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist Contact me for details :)
Primary This Rifter 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 585	Posted - 2015.02.14 21:45:13 - [58] - Quote Don't use anything for personal stuff ever. Just don't be personal. Dissociate from your body. Upload your brain to the cloud. Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
Bloody Slave Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 193	Posted - 2015.02.14 21:50:12 - [59] - Quote Isn't the rule number 1 in EVE "TRUST NO ONE"? I don't know how many EVE players play alone or in NPC Corps or in 1 man Corps just because of that said "rule" but CCP Dev team, sure, have the answer and, if they don't bother much in changing it is because they think is working as intended. Once, when I left EVE for the 1st time, back in 2010 I guess, I answered a survey saying why I was leaving the game. It changed nothing and I'm back. I can't stay away from EVE more than 6 months, but I know a lot of people that don't come back and I miss them all. Player retention is a problem? CCP have that answer as well. If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD)
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 284	Posted - 2015.02.14 21:51:47 - [60] - Quote Pok Nibin wrote: even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I am fairly certain that the law in Iceland does not protect you or CCP from the risk that anyone you send mail to, electronic or physical, might publish your mutual communications. When someone shares messages you have sent them with someone else, trough the API or otherwise, it is between you and them and CCP has nothing to do with it and should not have anything to do with it.
SilentAsTheGrave Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.02.14 21:56:21 - [61] - Quote What I find perplexing is this: It is stated that becoming part of a group from the start is critical to enjoying the game. To join any group that is recommended, requires that I hand over my full API. This now allows these strangers to read every correspondence I have, see my every transaction, literally everything I do. Given the reputation of the game to not trust anyone, it puts me and I assume many new players, into an awkward position. I understand EVE did not always have the full API and players joined corporations just fine. Players had some form of privacy to correspond with other players without their corporation knowing everything down to the last cent of ISK they made. Now the standard it seems is you have to give up everything to join a group. Everyone is so passionate about me giving them my API so they can know every move I make and in the same breath telling me I have nothing to worry about. I ask them to give me their full API and they act like I'm crazy. My point is it just makes me a bit paranoid as well as other players to want to join a group. And if we are not joining a group, one of the key things needed to happen to stick with the game, we are more likely to stay in our non group corporation. Or just quit the game. Rookie channel doesn't seem to help very much as they just keep insisting to give away my full API and not be concerned. I think my private mails no longer being private is a concern. They said if I don't hand over the API key it means I am a spy, yet I just started. lol I was told the learning curve for EVE is steep, but it feels like it is the players over complicating things that is the problem.
shimiku Black VooDoo Asassins The Kadeshi 32	Posted - 2015.02.14 22:01:43 - [62] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Memphis Baas wrote: Just like with real emails, they're possibly readable by a slew of routers that the message passes through, and by the NSA, and your recipient friend has a permanent copy and can fully post all your private info and photos on the internets for everyone to see. So, do not send private information through the in-game email. If you have, already, delete it, and ask your friend to delete it. He/she probably will, if they're your friend. And if they don't, a bunch of recruiters and directors, who are probably so swamped by join requests and corporate drama issues that they don't even have time to eat, may see your in-game mail and disregard it. They're typically looking for signs that you're a spy, corp thief, or awoxer, really, and probably won't even care to read whatever private info you've disclosed. Maybe we're losing focus here. What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. i dont want to be a **** here but if a full API reads all of your mails what did you think they did on other ppl API dont read your mail or what ? or did you think it only grap out going mails ?
Jimmy Farrere University of Caille Gallente Federation 16	Posted - 2015.02.14 22:43:01 - [63] - Quote I think the issue here is that players who have no interest or experience with the API system are being exposed to this without explicit warning of what is actually being risked. Sure, most everyone will understand that if you send someone an Eve-mail they may then choose to forward that email on to other people. But what isn't so obvious is that simply by sending an Eve-mail to a player that communication is automatically and quite invisibly being exposed to anyone who that person has registered a full API with (at that time or in the future). To me the T&C's and EULA just read like standard corporate ass-covering waffle of 'we will not be held accountable for in game communications' blah de blah and not DO NOT USE EVE-MAILS FOR ANYTHING as anything you send is easily and legitimately circulated amongst the rest of the player base via the API system. There really should be a warning/disclaimer right on the top of the Eve-mail window explicitly stating what the situation is. You can't even find this information in game, and not even out of game without understanding the API system and reading between the lines of a massive document.
Serene Repose 2241	Posted - 2015.02.14 23:37:46 - [64] - Quote Godfrey Silvarna wrote: Pok Nibin wrote: even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I am fairly certain that the law in Iceland does not protect you or CCP from the risk that anyone you or CCP sends mail to, electronic or physical, might publish your mutual communications. Misconstrue...lead, or just miss the point much? If YOU go into my Icelandic mailbox, and retrieve a letter sent to me by Pok, I'll bet the Icelandic authorities wouldn't just continue munching donuts given that tidbit of information. Should YOU put a listening device on MY phone, a dime'll get you a dollar if the Icelandic FUZZ don't show you a new set of bracelets. I love it when people are profoundly ignorant, don't you? Oh, wait. Your post was supposed to be a slam dunk! Sowwy Treason never prospers. What is the reason? Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 289	Posted - 2015.02.14 23:45:35 - [65] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Godfrey Silvarna wrote: Pok Nibin wrote: even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I am fairly certain that the law in Iceland does not protect you or CCP from the risk that anyone you or CCP sends mail to, electronic or physical, might publish your mutual communications. Misconstrue...lead, or just miss the point much? If YOU go into my Icelandic mailbox, and retrieve a letter sent to me by Pok, I'll bet the Icelandic authorities wouldn't just continue munching donuts given that tidbit of information. Should YOU put a listening device on MY phone, a dime'll get you a dollar if the Icelandic FUZZ don't show you a new set of bracelets. I love it when people are profoundly ignorant, don't you? Oh, wait. Your post was supposed to be a slam dunk! Sowwy None of what you said have anything to do with the API. CEO's and recruiters don't crack other people's accounts to steal evemail. They are voluntarily given API keys by players who CHOOSE to share their private communications. None of this is illegal or suspicious from an outside perspective. It is up to the player who shares his mailbox to figure out if they should do it or not.
Aiwha Infinite Point Nulli Secunda 801	Posted - 2015.02.14 23:57:51 - [66] - Quote SilentAsTheGrave wrote: What I find perplexing is this: It is stated that becoming part of a group from the start is critical to enjoying the game. To join any group that is recommended, requires that I hand over my full API. This now allows these strangers to read every correspondence I have, see my every transaction, literally everything I do. Given the reputation of the game to not trust anyone, it puts me and I assume many new players, into an awkward position. I understand EVE did not always have the full API and players joined corporations just fine. Players had some form of privacy to correspond with other players without their corporation knowing everything down to the last cent of ISK they made. Now the standard it seems is you have to give up everything to join a group. Everyone is so passionate about me giving them my API so they can know every move I make and in the same breath telling me I have nothing to worry about. I ask them to give me their full API and they act like I'm crazy. My point is it just makes me a bit paranoid as well as other players to want to join a group. And if we are not joining a group, one of the key things needed to happen to stick with the game, we are more likely to stay in our non group corporation. Or just quit the game. Rookie channel doesn't seem to help very much as they just keep insisting to give away my full API and not be concerned. I think my private mails no longer being private is a concern. They said if I don't hand over the API key it means I am a spy, yet I just started. lol I was told the learning curve for EVE is steep, but it feels like it is the players over complicating things that is the problem. EVE has had API for a decade now. It used to be you had two API keys, a limited API key which told **** all, and a full API key that had naked photos of your character. Now we have these awesome customization API keys that let you choose access levels. Everybody wants a full API key because nobody trusts random strangers. You're the one approaching them, you're the one who needs to make the concession to build trust. I want to be your representative for CSMX! Please EVEmail me with any quesitons, comments or concerns you have about myself or EVE.
Vyl Vit 1049	Posted - 2015.02.15 00:19:20 - [67] - Quote Godfrey Silvarna wrote: Serene Repose wrote: Godfrey Silvarna wrote: Pok Nibin wrote: even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I am fairly certain that the law in Iceland does not protect you or CCP from the risk that anyone you or CCP sends mail to, electronic or physical, might publish your mutual communications. Misconstrue...lead, or just miss the point much? If YOU go into my Icelandic mailbox, and retrieve a letter sent to me by Pok, I'll bet the Icelandic authorities wouldn't just continue munching donuts given that tidbit of information. Should YOU put a listening device on MY phone, a dime'll get you a dollar if the Icelandic FUZZ don't show you a new set of bracelets. I love it when people are profoundly ignorant, don't you? Oh, wait. Your post was supposed to be a slam dunk! Sowwy None of what you said have anything to do with the API. CEO's and recruiters don't crack other people's accounts to steal evemail. They are voluntarily given API keys by players who CHOOSE to share their private communications. None of this is illegal or suspicious from an outside perspective. It is entirely up to the player who shares his mailbox to figure out if they should do it or not. Any loss of trust or other consequences are also their private business if some of their correspondents disapprove of this. You make a good apologist. However, you answer none of the issues raised. You just make excuses and blame shift. A lot of text for that, too. You also missed the original point. Maybe if you reread you can catch up. Anyone with any sense has already left town.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 91	Posted - 2015.02.15 00:47:08 - [68] - Quote SilentAsTheGrave wrote: It is stated that becoming part of a group from the start is critical to enjoying the game. To join any group that is recommended, requires that I hand over my full API. This now allows these strangers to read every correspondence I have, see my every transaction, literally everything I do. Given the reputation of the game to not trust anyone, it puts me and I assume many new players, into an awkward position. I understand EVE did not always have the full API and players joined corporations just fine. That second bullet point is wrong. You don't HAVE to give out your API to anyone, and frankly, that isn't what the OP is complaining about. Not that the OP's complaint is an actual problem, or in any way surprising to anyone that bothers to think all the way through the process. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 91	Posted - 2015.02.15 00:50:47 - [69] - Quote Godfrey Silvarna wrote: If YOU go into my Icelandic mailbox, and retrieve a letter sent to me by Pok, I'll bet the Icelandic authorities wouldn't just continue munching donuts given that tidbit of information. Should YOU put a listening device on MY phone, a dime'll get you a dollar if the Icelandic FUZZ don't show you a new set of bracelets. There is a significant difference between me illegally wiretapping your phone, and you telling me it's ok to put the wiretap in there for a week, and at the end of that week, you can take it out and throw it away. What people keep missing is that you are choosing to use this system without understanding the implications of that use. That is YOUR problem, not ours, and not CCP's. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Sir Substance GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 681	Posted - 2015.02.15 01:30:42 - [70] - Quote Malcanis wrote: I don't know what else you thought full API meant? TBH this is pretty common knowledge, and given that GMs can also read your evemails, I can't think why anyone would ever put anything personal into one. I donno man, with 7.5 years in this game that never occurred to me. Now you mention it, I'm not surprised in the least, but it's one of those things that has to cross your mind before you consider it, and until now it hadn't crossed my mind. I do feel like it's something that should have an explicit warning on the API creation page. Maybe a discreet tag under api keys that give access to mail saying "caution: anyone with this key can read your evemail"? The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Kestrix Industrial Renaissance 154	Posted - 2015.02.15 01:58:44 - [71] - Quote This is why I delete all mails before giving my API key to anyone... also after they have had your API key and had their look change it.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4278	Posted - 2015.02.15 03:37:14 - [72] - Quote CCP Falcon wrote: Hope this explains things. it does, but i feel there's something missed i don't entirely blame someone who doesn't read through the eula and tos. they're long and boring and can be hard to comprehend. on the face of it, if one didn't know about the api, evemail looks private. i imagine everyone's aware that the addressee might share the mail, but the api isn't an everyday thing joe average'll be aware of when they join the game while it's mostly their personal fault, i feel it's understandable for a person to make the mistake of believing evemail is reasonably secure. i wonder how many are under this impression?
SilentAsTheGrave Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 2	Posted - 2015.02.15 04:01:27 - [73] - Quote Elenahina wrote: SilentAsTheGrave wrote: It is stated that becoming part of a group from the start is critical to enjoying the game. To join any group that is recommended, requires that I hand over my full API. This now allows these strangers to read every correspondence I have, see my every transaction, literally everything I do. Given the reputation of the game to not trust anyone, it puts me and I assume many new players, into an awkward position. I understand EVE did not always have the full API and players joined corporations just fine. That second bullet point is wrong. You don't HAVE to give out your API to anyone, and frankly, that isn't what the OP is complaining about. Not that the OP's complaint is an actual problem, or in any way surprising to anyone that bothers to think all the way through the process. I still stand by my point, even if it is not precisely what this thread is about. It is repeated over and over that to enjoy the game, one must join a corporation. Even further one should look to join a corporation that is not in high security space. Catch is ever where I have turned to ask about these groups that I have read about, ALL demand a full API. So you see, it is required. Unless of course I want to just hang out in secure space grinding missions and most likely become bored. Everyone is saying handing over your full API is nothing to worry about and no big deal, but I can't help but ask questions on why such a 'non-important thing' is so critical for a corporation to be able to function. I've already handed over my full API due to massive peer pressure and the fact I want to actually start enjoying the game. Ironically now I am being told it will be three to four days to 'process' the information. So now I have to twiddle my thumbs trying to entertain myself with proclaimed 'un-fun activities because I'm not in a corporation with other players' for days. All because everyone is super paranoid over me being a spy, traitor or something equally sinister. I just want to log in and play. Is that so bad?
Theodoric Darkwind Enlightened Industries Goonswarm Federation 318	Posted - 2015.02.15 05:15:14 - [74] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Maybe we're losing focus here. What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. It's no different than sending personal information to somebody's work email, you always assume the sysadmins can and will read it. Full APIs are a standard practice in most larger corps (and nearly all corps that operate outside of highsec). You should also assume that any RL info you put into an evemail will get googled by alliance recruiters and intel people. I ran HR for my previous corp for about a year. I caught several spais because of info they let slip in EVE-mails, some of that was even non-EVE related, I caught one spai because he let his steam ID slip in an EVEmail and I found that his steam ID was associated with a steam group belonging to a hostile alliance.
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20831	Posted - 2015.02.15 06:25:40 - [75] - Quote So devil's advocate - Why do we even need mail API? Can someone tell me the big positive it gives that makes it so necessary in EVE where 99% of other similar entities would never dream of allowing such a thing? Why don't we just get rid of mail API? =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Serene Repose 2244	Posted - 2015.02.15 06:28:35 - [76] - Quote Better idea. Don't join corps that expect a full API. Get rid of CEOs that think it's a good idea. Derp. All successful spais will tell you, it is so easy to beat, it's a joy to know a CEO is actually using it to catch them. Treason never prospers. What is the reason? Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6541	Posted - 2015.02.15 06:35:01 - [77] - Quote Theodoric Darkwind wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Maybe we're losing focus here. What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. It's no different than sending personal information to somebody's work email, you always assume the sysadmins can and will read it. Full APIs are a standard practice in most larger corps (and nearly all corps that operate outside of highsec). You should also assume that any RL info you put into an evemail will get googled by alliance recruiters and intel people. I ran HR for my previous corp for about a year. I caught several spais because of info they let slip in EVE-mails, some of that was even non-EVE related, I caught one spai because he let his steam ID slip in an EVEmail and I found that his steam ID was associated with a steam group belonging to a hostile alliance. Are you working for our internal security group now? The heroes we ~~deserve~~need ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears. Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3751	Posted - 2015.02.15 08:34:33 - [78] - Quote Candi LeMew wrote: So devil's advocate - Why do we even need mail API? Can someone tell me the big positive it gives that makes it so necessary in EVE where 99% of other similar entities would never dream of allowing such a thing? Why don't we just get rid of mail API? That's one interesting question, with a interesting answer: checking mails as a way to check for incompetent spies is necessary because CCP's corporation system is so incredibly shoddy that a single spy can dismantle a whole alliance and destroy irreversibly the work of thousands of people by clicking a single button. So CCP's bad corporation system leads to bad email API and players handing out on a regular basis information which is not of their property and does not matter to the persons receiving it. CCP tells me that I should not entrust evemail with personal information because they aren't legally responsible of that, but the point with communication services is to communicate and everyone and their father have certain expectations on mailing systems. Can a mail be copypasted or forwarded? Yes. Is it usual that people getting your mails are requested to share your mail to third persons if the addressees want as much as play a videogame "in the right way"? Hell, no! If, say, someone used evemail to aks for advice, or help, in a RL distressin situation, I would be forced to turn that person down if I as much as suspected that said person would give a full API with my answers to his evemails to a series of potential recruiters... "Sorry dude, this is EVE and even as I'd like to assist you, I can't because doing so could lead, potentially, to half of New Eden reading my answers if you as much as handed a full API to your next recruiter. Just take my word for it, as you can't look for that in the non-existant user manual of EVE; also you can deduce it yourself by looking at the EULA, the ToS, CCP's privacy policy and the evepedia article on API keys. Or just ask to other players to know in how many ways you're stupid to not know that just by subscribing." The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
SilentAsTheGrave Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2015.02.15 10:20:16 - [79] - Quote My personal favorite so far is one recruiter being able to deduce what subscription model I picked after seeing my transaction history and the clothing and cyber arms I received. I didn't buy them off the market. Call me paranoid, but I just feel like this whole API requirement as the bar to get into a group is, well... a bit too far. Groups were able to recruit players and grow before full API was a thing and now, standard practice for almost all non-high sec. The question I keep asking is; does the existence of the full API cause more harm than good? Instead of being able to join a corporation, I now have to wait days and days for the groups to run their API parsing 3rd party programs and going over every scrap of data. Why? To keep out day tripping spies. Meanwhile any spy who puts forth the slightest effort is still able to infiltrate and do their spy thing. The first few days playing a new game is pretty critical in hooking the player. For EVE, you spend those first few days in a waiting room. I think this is all I will say on the matter. Far too many people have expressed anger towards me because I think this whole full API to join a corporation is self destructive.
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 290	Posted - 2015.02.15 10:32:47 - [80] - Quote Candi LeMew wrote: So devil's advocate - Why do we even need mail API? Can someone tell me the big positive it gives that makes it so necessary in EVE where 99% of other similar entities would never dream of allowing such a thing? Why don't we just get rid of mail API? The Mail and other parts of API are incredibly useful for a lot of things. For example, if you want to make a mobile app that monitors your evemail inbox and notifies you of an incoming message, you need a mail API to make it work.
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20836	Posted - 2015.02.15 11:23:25 - [81] - Quote Godfrey Silvarna wrote: The Mail and other parts of API are incredibly useful for a lot of things. For example, if you want to make a mobile app that monitors your evemail inbox and notifies you of an incoming message, you need a mail API to make it work. I find it amazing that CCP provides us with such powerful tools for making third party applications that tie into their game. Don't blame the tools, blame the users. I just check EVEgate on my phone. vov I'm usually online shitposting anyway. I personally think removing the mail API could drastically change some of the sociology across EVE, especially when it comes to joining corporations and getting involved with other groups of players. It'd be good for the honest players, it'd also be good for the dishonest ones. Win win really. Except for the folks who're too lazy to login to check mails and want a notification on their phone instead. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1116	Posted - 2015.02.15 11:34:02 - [82] - Quote Malcanis wrote: CCP Falcon wrote: Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system. Sometimes it takes a CCP employee to carefully and politely explain that 2+2=4, big is more than small and that fire is hot. Thanks for stepping up. He did however fail to explain and state that water is wet, so the OP is right about not having been given all the necessary information.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 95	Posted - 2015.02.15 20:02:32 - [83] - Quote What it boils down to is it's no different than a modern email system. I have the ability, at work, to give other people access to my email account (managers use it to allow their admins to manage their calendars, for example). It's an incredibly useful tool. But that also means that this person you have granted access to can read every email that comes in and goes out, even presumably private ones. Hell some admins even have the ability to send emails on behalf of the managers, from their manager's account. Is it the system's fault that it doesn't warn the hundreds of thousands of users that send and receive email from it that anything they put on that system may be available to users they know nothing about, depending on the security settings of other users? Or is it OUR responsibility as the users of that system to have some grasp of what using that system might allow? Stop acting like a victim, and take some responsibility for being informed about your choices. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 8936	Posted - 2015.02.15 20:11:51 - [84] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Malcanis wrote: CCP Falcon wrote: Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system. Sometimes it takes a CCP employee to carefully and politely explain that 2+2=4, big is more than small and that fire is hot. Thanks for stepping up. He did however fail to explain and state that water is wet, so the OP is right about not having been given all the necessary information. Wait what ?! this changes things This changes everything! "I'm also quite confident that you are laughing and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers." =]I[=
Jimmy Farrere University of Caille Gallente Federation 17	Posted - 2015.02.15 20:34:39 - [85] - Quote So you don't think that CCP should make it much more clear (especially to new players) that the ingame mail system is far less secure than it first appears and indeed, much less secure than similar mail systems in other games? I find it kind of irksome that CCP forbid us to share any communications made with them and yet provide a way to share 'private' communications received from others so easily. IMO the sharing of Eve-mails through the API should be removed, it serves little purpose other than allowing wannabe private detectives to nose through other peoples business. Failing that, CCP need to add a warning to the 'Compose mail' window (not the API screen) to highlight exactly how insecure it is.
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20866	Posted - 2015.02.15 21:04:20 - [86] - Quote Elenahina wrote: What it boils down to is it's no different than a modern email system. I have the ability, at work, to give other people access to my email account (managers use it to allow their admins to manage their calendars, for example). It's an incredibly useful tool. But that also means that this person you have granted access to can read every email that comes in and goes out, even presumably private ones. Hell some admins even have the ability to send emails on behalf of the managers, from their manager's account. Is it the system's fault that it doesn't warn the hundreds of thousands of users that send and receive email from it that anything they put on that system may be available to users they know nothing about, depending on the security settings of other users? Very similar to where I work. Of course, using government systems, everything is monitored and 'big brother' can look at my mails anytime. I accept that, in the same way I accept that CCP might need to see people's mails in the event of complaints or incidents, just like CCP Falcon mentioned. However the social club at work doesn't have access to my emails, and I see no reason why they should just so I can go out drinking with them every Friday night. Elenahina wrote: If you don't ant to give out your API - don't. That's good advice, and I follow it personally. However in doing so one also cuts themselves off from 90% of the social content (corps) here that they can get involved in. Why does it have to be that way? Because of things like the mail API. Jimmy Farrere wrote: So you don't think that CCP should make it much more clear (especially to new players) that the ingame mail system is far less secure than it first appears and indeed, much less secure than similar mail systems in other games? Why bother implementing new warnings, disclaimers, etc. Just remove the mail API, as you suggest also in your last comment. Jimmy Farrere wrote: I find it kind of irksome that CCP forbid us to share any communications made with them and yet provide a way to share 'private' communications received from others so easily.. Well, as per CCP Falcon's post, CCP's view is that not only should "private" communications take place here, but it's not allowed. So let's change the game up on them a little, and instead of saying you're sharing "private info" let's say we're sharing "personal" info. That little change in terminology shifts the ballgame quite a bit imo. As Mr Epeen mentioned earlier, while there may not be anything "private" in some of these communications there is still plenty of "personal" things you wouldn't want to be exposed to anyone but the intended recipient. So we have "private" info, the transmission of which is regulated with rules and legalities. But we also have "personal" info, which is regulated by morals and respect. CCP are doing a good job in one of those aspects, a very poor one in the other. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Remiel Pollard Shock Treatment Ministries 6494	Posted - 2015.02.15 21:10:26 - [87] - Quote Candi LeMew wrote: So we have "private" info, the transmission of which is regulated with rules and legalities. But we also have "personal" info, which is regulated by morals and respect. CCP are doing a good job in one of those aspects, a very poor one in the other. Morality is subjective, and respect is irrelevant. The information you choose to share with people using this game as a medium is subject only to CCP's established policies and your own prerogative. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20866	Posted - 2015.02.15 21:14:05 - [88] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: Candi LeMew wrote: So we have "private" info, the transmission of which is regulated with rules and legalities. But we also have "personal" info, which is regulated by morals and respect. CCP are doing a good job in one of those aspects, a very poor one in the other. Morality is subjective, and respect is irrelevant. The information you choose to share with people using this game as a medium is subject only to CCP's established policies and your own prerogative. Well morality and respect are general concepts that, like your local laws, most people should have a general sense of. Though it's true a lot of people, and companies, still struggle with both concepts. And you're right. We're all responsible for whatever info or content we transmit. Being humans this means it's easy for us to trip over sometimes, and you'd like to think CCP have done all they can to not only cover their own asses but their users' too. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 7775	Posted - 2015.02.15 22:17:59 - [89] - Quote Here's something to think about. I sell characters. To transfer a character I need the persons acct name. If I were lazy or clueless and didn't bother deleting all transaction mails, like most that sell characters, and join a corp, they've now got 10 or 15 character names and their associated acct names. ISD is very quick to delete acct names when some doofus posts one in a CB thread, but apparently CCP is fine with spreading them across New Eden via API grabs. Don't mail info you don't want people to know, Falcon? How the hell does that work with character transfers where it's a rule to do exactly that? And then rely on the person you gave the info to to have the common sense to delete it. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Serene Repose 2248	Posted - 2015.02.15 22:45:22 - [90] - Quote The ones who don't really comprehend this issue aside, which should happen more frequently, it appears this glaring hole in the system (large enough to drive a truck through) needs to be plugged, but good. Therefore, noting an apparent apologetic tone from the powers that be, the remedy would be rather involved. (That's how they react when you point out the plumbing needs to be entirely replaced before the new toilet will work.) I'm forced to recall the handful of "other" games I play have a considerably better mail system than this. I'm also forced to speculate on why EVE is so behind in such a significant "social" tool if EVE (as all the pros will tell you) is supposed to be the be-all end-all to GROUP play. Those who claim you give up rights to privacy by joining corps, those who say failing to use caution puts the blame on me, and those who say "it's a matter of indifference I'm exaggerating" first fail to recall, the OP is referring to a condition outside all three of those considerations. This affects a third-person who made no decisions with regard to corporations and APIs. That aside, if you grant all three of those points, then the only INTELLIGENT thing for anyone to do is not use the message function at all. That of course puts us back to square one - the message system at present suffers from advanced sucktitude. Take this condition, and half dozen others which exist within the game and add to it the idiocy found in seriously continuing the WiS discussion and you see how disjointed the playerbase actually is with regard to the condition of this game. Suffice to say the majority look at it only in terms of a gaming smorgasbord. They lift what they wish from the tray and ignore the rest. SO....if you were a corporation....who would YOU listen to? Treason never prospers. What is the reason? Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
Serene Repose 2250	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:01:03 - [91] - Quote dadgum double post - ffs Treason never prospers. What is the reason? Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20871	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:06:21 - [92] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: The ones who don't really comprehend this issue aside, which should happen more frequently, it appears this glaring hole in the system (large enough to drive a truck through) needs to be plugged, but good. Therefore, noting an apparent apologetic tone from the powers that be, the remedy would be rather involved. (That's how they react when you point out the plumbing needs to be entirely replaced before the new toilet will work.) If that eventuates then just remind CCP of when they stopped API system kill data from being pulled by 3rd party wormhole mapping tools. A change that an enormous swathe of wormholers were against that resulted in some threadnaughts in that subforum. CCP went ahead and did it anyway with apparent ease. And yeah, I accept I'm coming at this whole thing from a different angle than OP, but we're looking at the same destination. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Thorn en Distel Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:10:37 - [93] - Quote I think it's a bit of a legal mess. European privacy law is pretty strict, especially where the privacy of minors is concerned, and I think this might actually be in violation or at the least close to being so. I think a more explicit warning about what exactly you're letting yourself into when you activate that option and give out your API is definitely in order.
Pok Nibin Filial Pariahs 498	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:14:24 - [94] - Quote The cowboy mentality of the Icelandic overseers could use a bit of adjustment, too. Mixing whiskey and Samuel Colt never did bode very well. Mixing Jaeger and iNTEL might be akin. Dont fight it; Rejoin your Amarrian patriarchs; You know you want to.
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20871	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:15:45 - [95] - Quote Thorn en Distel wrote: I think it's a bit of a legal mess. European privacy law is pretty strict, especially where the privacy of minors is concerned, and I think this might actually be in violation or at the least close to being so. I think a more explicit warning about what exactly you're letting yourself into when you activate that option and give out your API is definitely in order. But why implement more warnings and disclaimers? Why not just remove the ability for 3rd party apps to pull mail API data? Regardless all the opinions and views put forward in this thread from any perspective, I've not seen a single argument put forward as to why having mail API accesible is such a fantastic idea that should be promoted, and is so necessary in EVE unlike 99% of other games. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3755	Posted - 2015.02.15 23:23:30 - [96] - Quote Thorn en Distel wrote: I think it's a bit of a legal mess. European privacy law is pretty strict, especially where the privacy of minors is concerned, and I think this might actually be in violation or at the least close to being so. I think a more explicit warning about what exactly you're letting yourself into when you activate that option and give out your API is definitely in order. Oh, CCP haves that very well covered, as the EULA forbids to share personal data through CCP's services. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
John Wolfsson BAND of MAGNUS 13	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:22:20 - [97] - Quote 5 pages and nobody post this ? , http://www.nexusfleet.org/user_files/images/cad-20120625-8bb4c.png .... , In some environments full api with mails , assets, standings ,wallet journals is necessary to corp security ... , and really why you send sensitive or personal data through evemail ?
Kaarous Aldurald Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 11787	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:25:32 - [98] - Quote Thorn en Distel wrote: I think it's a bit of a legal mess. European privacy law is pretty strict, especially where the privacy of minors is concerned, and I think this might actually be in violation or at the least close to being so. I think a more explicit warning about what exactly you're letting yourself into when you activate that option and give out your API is definitely in order. It has one already. That's what boggles me the most. How is this even being discussed at all? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Erica Dusette Isogen 5 37677	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:34:43 - [99] - Quote John Wolfsson wrote: 5 pages and nobody post this ? , http://www.nexusfleet.org/user_files/images/cad-20120625-8bb4c.png .... , In some environments full api with mails , assets, standings ,wallet journals is necessary to corp security ... , and really why you send sensitive or personal data through evemail ? No it's not. And in 5 pages it seems you haven't bothered to read the posts which already addresed pretty much every point you just wrote. Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again! Part-Time Wormhole Pirate pâä Full-Time Supermodel The Endgame \| Wormhole Diaries
Marsha Mallow 1951	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:35:26 - [100] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: Here's something to think about. I sell characters. To transfer a character I need the persons acct name. If I were lazy or clueless and didn't bother deleting all transaction mails, like most that sell characters, and join a corp, they've now got 10 or 15 character names and their associated acct names. ISD is very quick to delete acct names when some doofus posts one in a CB thread, but apparently CCP is fine with spreading them across New Eden via API grabs. Don't mail info you don't want people to know, Falcon? How the hell does that work with character transfers where it's a rule to do exactly that? And then rely on the person you gave the info to to have the common sense to delete it. Mr Epeen In character trades you request the ISK to the character being sold, so it makes sense to request the account name to be mailed to that character also to provide a clear trail for GMs in case of a dispute later on. In which case the mail is transfered along with the character, and after that point it's for the new owner to ensure their mailbox is clear before sending their full API to anyone. If you're trading characters and requesting the account name is sent to a different alt to the one being sold, or you are forwarding them on for record keeping, one would hope you have the sense not to generate an API for that alt which can be trawled. The character trading system could certainly be improved, and people should be careful about their account name, but the link you're trying to make between API keys and account name security is flimsy at best. Recruiters who have to do background checks are usually looking for specific flags and skimming multiple accounts, not snapping fingers at 40 blackops employees to sift through your bin and launch a satellite over your house. I'm not keen on groups who demand continuous API access, so I don't play with those neckbeards. You don't have to either. In reality, you should be more concerned about IP monitoring and yakking on across various platforms where you inadvertantly divulge personal info and create a trail which can be used to generate a database of intel. Most corps who ask for a full API key will ask for it once, at the point of recruitment (which you can set to expire). They might ask for a limited one later on to access certain services - some of which is set up for your protection to keep unknowns from joining comms, which you're arguably entitled to demand to protect your privacy. Personal responsibility or nanny state CCP? I can see why people have an issue with privacy to a degree on this (when I put pants on head and try to think seriously), although it makes me wonder exactly what you think is safely transmittable electronically in the first place? If CCP cull parts of the API to protect players who are breaching their own privacy, we all lose the ability to monitor our characters using 3rd party tools. You can't stop corps and alliances from demanding access to your API without a major policy change (which I'd be in favour of in spirit, but would be diabolically difficult to implement). Even if you protest loudly enough to enact some sort of review of this, *CCP still would not be able to guarantee your privacy if you use the client to transmit personal info.* DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20878	Posted - 2015.02.16 00:53:17 - [101] - Quote A nice post. Can only think of a couple things to reply to personally. Marsha Mallow wrote: I'm not keen on groups who demand continuous API access, so I don't play with those neckbeards. You don't have to either. In my experience so far it's been every large corp I've joined or wanted to join. Unless a special exception or vouch is made. Quote: They might ask for a limited one later on to access certain services - some of which is set up for your protection to keep unknowns from joining comms, which you're arguably entitled to demand to protect your privacy. Yeah, our corp does this too, for both comms and forum. Though it's a very, very limited character API needed to achieve this and essentially is harmless. Quote: Even if you protest loudly enough to enact some sort of review of this, *CCP still would not be able to guarantee your privacy if you use the client to transmit personal info.* Of course, but at least they can then say they've done everything they can to help their users achieve this. Unlike right now where they've left quite a gaping hole. Though judging by CCP Falcon's post user "privacy" isn't a concept recognized by CCP. =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Alruan Shadowborn InterSun Freelance SONS of BANE 30	Posted - 2015.02.16 01:19:13 - [102] - Quote Serene Repose wrote: Godfrey Silvarna wrote: Pok Nibin wrote: even though they live in a state that protects their right to privacy in their letters and other communication, which includes criminal penalties if violated (fines and prison time), that they can come here and create a system that not only entirely disregards my right to this, does this while I'm paying them money, and then blames me should anything untoward occur. I am fairly certain that the law in Iceland does not protect you or CCP from the risk that anyone you or CCP sends mail to, electronic or physical, might publish your mutual communications. Misconstrue...lead, or just miss the point much? If YOU go into my Icelandic mailbox, and retrieve a letter sent to me by Pok, I'll bet the Icelandic authorities wouldn't just continue munching donuts given that tidbit of information. Should YOU put a listening device on MY phone, a dime'll get you a dollar if the Icelandic FUZZ don't show you a new set of bracelets. I love it when people are profoundly ignorant, don't you? Oh, wait. Your post was supposed to be a slam dunk! Sowwy The same could be said for you. If YOU go into my Icelandic mailbox, and retrieve a letter sent to me by Pok, with a key that you gave me authorities will point and laugh and go back to their donuts and you call others "profoundly ignorant"
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20878	Posted - 2015.02.16 01:30:02 - [103] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Thorn en Distel wrote: I think it's a bit of a legal mess. European privacy law is pretty strict, especially where the privacy of minors is concerned, and I think this might actually be in violation or at the least close to being so. I think a more explicit warning about what exactly you're letting yourself into when you activate that option and give out your API is definitely in order. It has one already. That's what boggles me the most. How is this even being discussed at all? I think this is an awesome discussion. I try to avoid these kinds of discussions/debates like the plague these days but there's some really good stuff being raised here by a lot of people imo. I think I said earlier in the thread that while I don't like mail API I deal with it. But as this discussion has evolved I've begun to think "You know what, why is mail API even a thing?". The only responses to that I've seen have been 1) you can make a mobile phone app from it (lol) and 2) It's for corp security. Well we all know in reality that API won't hinder a corp spy at all. It's easy to step around for all but the most incompetent. So.... why does it exist? What positive purpose does it truly serve? =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
Jeaile OCBF 8	Posted - 2015.02.16 01:37:46 - [104] - Quote So in a nutshell: 1. Users are lazy and don't read the contract which they agree to in order to play 2. It is too difficult to write, "please delete this when you have read" or alternatively you don't trust the person you trust enough to send your personal information to, that they will delete it if asked 3. Thinking of the myriad of other communication methods at your disposal, the best you could come up with was the one method by which your messages can be tracked, read etc if all parties to it do not delete it. 4. One person states that because of someone's carelessness, their information could get out. Do not share information with people you cannot trust not to be careless. None of the above is CCP's fault, it is peoples. They are either too lazy, too careless, or too untrustworthy for you to share your personal details with. If you trust them enough to use your personal info, and you are sensible no-one ever needs find it. Start a conversation in game, that is not logged on any API. As for the assertions that no-one uses evemail for spying, bullsh!t there are some very stupid attempts at spying in Eve. OP take your supporters in this thread, clearly they are all too lazy or too stupid to do something in a sensible fashion because :effort: so they would likely use evemail for spying because it's easier.
Jimmy Farrere University of Caille Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2015.02.16 07:44:16 - [105] - Quote Jeaile wrote: So in a nutshell: 1. Users are lazy and don't read the contract which they agree to in order to play 2. It is too difficult to write, "please delete this when you have read" or alternatively you don't trust the person you trust enough to send your personal information to, that they will delete it if asked 3. Thinking of the myriad of other communication methods at your disposal, the best you could come up with was the one method by which your messages can be tracked, read etc if all parties to it do not delete it. 4. One person states that because of someone's carelessness, their information could get out. Do not share information with people you cannot trust not to be careless. None of the above is CCP's fault, it is peoples. They are either too lazy, too careless, or too untrustworthy for you to share your personal details with. If you trust them enough to use your personal info, and you are sensible no-one ever needs find it. Start a conversation in game, that is not logged on any API. As for the assertions that no-one uses evemail for spying, bullsh!t there are some very stupid attempts at spying in Eve. OP take your supporters in this thread, clearly they are all too lazy or too stupid to do something in a sensible fashion because :effort: so they would likely use evemail for spying because it's easier. So to answer your points (in a nutshell) 1. Dur, who plays a game without reading a massive legal document and then reading between the lines to interpret exactly how these systems they don't yet understand could affect them. 2. It is the players fault for not realizing exactly how non-private Eve-mails can be, despite never being warned and on the surface of it, Eve-mails appearing like a private messaging system. 3. Don't use Eve-mail, ever. 4. Again, it's the players fault for not knowing how insecure Eve's mail system is, despite never being warned. Other points included, a. Don't use Eve-mail, EVER! and b. We need Eve-mail API's so that we can easily track lazy spies by looking through all their correspondence in the mail system that any spy is going to know not to use, we're totally not just nosing through peoples personal business.
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3757	Posted - 2015.02.16 07:46:03 - [106] - Quote Jeaile wrote: So in a nutshell: 1. Users are lazy and don't read the contract which they agree to in order to play Don't forget to read the evepedia article on API, as the part with "yoru mails will be accessed through the adressee's API" isn't in the EULA. Quote: 2. It is too difficult to write, "please delete this when you have read" or alternatively you don't trust the person you trust enough to send your personal information to, that they will delete it if asked 3. Thinking of the myriad of other communication methods at your disposal, the best you could come up with was the one method by which your messages can be tracked, read etc if all parties to it do not delete it. 4. One person states that because of someone's carelessness, their information could get out. Do not share information with people you cannot trust not to be careless. None of the above is CCP's fault, it is peoples. They are either too lazy, too careless, or too untrustworthy for you to share your personal details with. If you trust them enough to use your personal info, and you are sensible no-one ever needs find it. Start a conversation in game, that is not logged on any API. As for the assertions that no-one uses evemail for spying, bullsh!t there are some very stupid attempts at spying in Eve. OP take your supporters in this thread, clearly they are all too lazy or too stupid to do something in a sensible fashion because :effort: so they would likely use evemail for spying because it's easier. That's very smart but please come back to the OP: in 6 years, I did not need to learn of mails and full APIs, and so I didn't learn of it until I accidentally stumbled on that precious little info... 6 years and a few hundred evemails too late. I bet you don't know may things I know about EVE, because they are not tools of your trade. Full API is not a tool of my trade and I never learned the implciations of it as iIdidn't needed to... ...and learning them on your own means reading no less than 3 different papers, or asking-the-guy-who-knows. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Sir Substance GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 681	Posted - 2015.02.16 08:54:37 - [107] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: That's very smart but please come back to the OP: in 6 years, I did not need to learn of mails and full APIs, and so I didn't learn of it until I accidentally stumbled on that precious little info... 6 years and a few hundred evemails too late. There are two lessons to be learned from this: If you are not a UI designer: Pretend that communication sent over the internet is going to end up publically on your facebook page, unless you've encrypted it. If you are a UI designer: Things which have the potential to do damage should always have attention explicitly drawn to them. Blaming the user is not acceptable design practice. The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Serene Repose 2253	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:02:06 - [108] - Quote Marsha Mallow wrote: Mr Epeen wrote: Here's something to think about. I sell characters. To transfer a character I need the persons acct name. If I were lazy or clueless and didn't bother deleting all transaction mails, like most that sell characters, and join a corp, they've now got 10 or 15 character names and their associated acct names. ISD is very quick to delete acct names when some doofus posts one in a CB thread, but apparently CCP is fine with spreading them across New Eden via API grabs. Don't mail info you don't want people to know, Falcon? How the hell does that work with character transfers where it's a rule to do exactly that? And then rely on the person you gave the info to to have the common sense to delete it. Mr Epeen In character trades you request the ISK to the character being sold, so it makes sense to request the account name to be mailed to that character also to provide a clear trail for GMs in case of a dispute later on. In which case the mail is transfered along with the character, and after that point it's for the new owner to ensure their mailbox is clear before sending their full API to anyone. If you're trading characters and requesting the account name is sent to a different alt to the one being sold, or you are forwarding them on for record keeping, one would hope you have the sense not to generate an API for that alt which can be trawled. The character trading system could certainly be improved, and people should be careful about their account name, but the link you're trying to make between API keys and account name security is flimsy at best. Recruiters who have to do background checks are usually looking for specific flags and skimming multiple accounts, not snapping fingers at 40 blackops employees to sift through your bin and launch a satellite over your house. I'm not keen on groups who demand continuous API access, so I don't play with those neckbeards. You don't have to either. In reality, you should be more concerned about IP monitoring and yakking on across various platforms where you inadvertantly divulge personal info and create a trail which can be used to generate a database of intel. Most corps who ask for a full API key will ask for it once, at the point of recruitment (which you can set to expire). They might ask for a limited one later on to access certain services - some of which is set up for your protection to keep unknowns from joining comms, which you're arguably entitled to demand to protect your privacy. Personal responsibility or nanny state CCP? I can see why people have an issue with privacy to a degree on this (when I put pants on head and try to think seriously), although it makes me wonder exactly what you think is safely transmittable electronically in the first place? If CCP cull parts of the API to protect players who are breaching their own privacy, we all lose the ability to monitor our characters using 3rd party tools. You can't stop corps and alliances from demanding access to your API without a major policy change (which I'd be in favour of in spirit, but would be diabolically difficult to implement). Even if you protest loudly enough to enact some sort of review of this, *CCP still would not be able to guarantee your privacy if you use the client to transmit personal info.* You sort of let your tirade get you off the point, assuming you were on it in the first place. Nobody's asking CCP to guarantee anything except that they don't present us with a leaky bucket. Now we know we have a leaky bucket, do we use it, or no? You want to use it? Use it. Who says no? The "intelligent" thing to do is NOT use it. So, if that's the case, what good is it? Can it be done better? SHOULD IT? These are legitimate questions even for just intellectual pursuit of a digital phenomena. SO, then...is your issue that it's being discussed at all? Think about it. Treason never prospers. What is the reason? Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
Vyl Vit 1054	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:09:39 - [109] - Quote This gets funnier and funnier with the spy crap. "Catch the lazy spy." You'd have to be an oaf to be reamed by a lazy spy. You'd deserve it, and the rest of the player base shouldn't have to endure faulty processes just 'cause the lazy CEO is an oaf and needs a crutch. It's a ridiculous argument, and I suggest any spy looking for a target use this thread to find people making this argument. API is anti-spy? There's your meat. Bon appetite. The real spy cannot be caught with the API. In fact, the real spy will feed the API in such a way as to create a footprint the so called intel-folks will not only fall for, but will be inclined to promote within the ranks and bestow with privileges and the keys to the kingdom. Anybody who doesn't understand this is really playing out of their depth, and the auto-feel good seeming security blanket this API seems to offer is just the thing to refer you to the paragraph above. That being said, and not as opinion but fact, there is no real reason to defend this other than to say, laziness should over rule logic. That's so 21st Century, too. We must be in vogue, no? "Ignorance is bliss," my momma always told me. Anyone with any sense has already left town.
Liafcipe9000 Critically Preposterous 33416	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:21:10 - [110] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them? What part of "A full API gives access to ALL evemails in a person's mailbox" is confusing you? You obviously understand the concept of a full API or you wouldn't be worried about it. Is the inbox part of the mailbox? Why yes, yes it is. As is the sent items box. The logic here is not herculean - as a picture, it pretty much paints itself. For the record, it also gives access to evemails they have sent to the trash bin,. assuming it hasn't been emptied. and you, as well as the other idiots verbally aggressing the OP, fail to understand that they were simply asking a question and that there is no complaint whatsoever. Founder of the Graycember movement and LAGL's pet cat.
Samsara Toldya Academy of Contradictory Behaviour 233	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:27:56 - [111] - Quote CCP Falcon wrote: Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system. As things are getting interesting: I do have several evemails from and to CCPs / GMs in my inbox. I am not allowed to share them (forbidden by EULA) I am allowed to share my full API. I can not control wether or not those with access to my API will publish those mails on platforms like reddit/pastebin using an anonymous account. So... if I want internal correspondence with CCP/GM to be published I simply give away my full API and won't risk a ban as I didn't break any rules. Simple as that?
Serene Repose 2254	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:42:38 - [112] - Quote Simple as that. Treason never prospers. What is the reason? Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
Falken Falcon 31572	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:50:56 - [113] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Don't forget to read the evepedia article on API, as the part with "yoru mails will be accessed through the adressee's API" isn't in the EULA. You need to realize that when you send mail, that mail is no longer only yours, it is now commonly your and the recievers mail. Aye, Sea Turtles
Candi LeMew Isogen 5 20905	Posted - 2015.02.16 09:55:27 - [114] - Quote Candi LeMew wrote: So.... why does it exist? What positive purpose does it truly serve? Still waiting... yawns =ƒÉÆ Bob Is Always Watching ... "I been kicked out of better homes than this" - Rick James Dusette SquadGäó endorses Corbexx for CSM X !
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 206	Posted - 2015.02.16 10:13:30 - [115] - Quote Vyl Vit wrote: This gets funnier and funnier with the spy crap. "Catch the lazy spy." You'd have to be an oaf to be reamed by a lazy spy. You'd deserve it, and the rest of the player base shouldn't have to endure faulty processes just 'cause the lazy CEO is an oaf and needs a crutch. It's a ridiculous argument, and I suggest any spy looking for a target use this thread to find people making this argument. API is anti-spy? There's your meat. Bon appetite. The real spy cannot be caught with the API. In fact, the real spy will feed the API in such a way as to create a footprint the so called intel-folks will not only fall for, but will be inclined to promote within the ranks and bestow with privileges and the keys to the kingdom. Anybody who doesn't understand this is really playing out of their depth, and the auto-feel good seeming security blanket this API seems to offer is just the thing to refer you to the paragraph above. That being said, and not as opinion but fact, there is no real reason to defend this other than to say, laziness should over rule logic. That's so 21st Century, too. We must be in vogue, no? "Ignorance is bliss," my momma always told me. well said.
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 726	Posted - 2015.02.16 10:19:20 - [116] - Quote I always attribute this to a generation-thing; for all their tech-savvy, modern youngsters seem blithely oblivious to how easily things they post on the internet can get around. I for one have never assumed anything I've texted, emailed, facebooked, tweeted, put in the post, said on the phone, or written on a post-it stuck to the side of my monitor has only been read by the person I intended it for. I assume the nosey guy at work has took a browse through all the documents on my PC, and my browser history on my day off work (Hi if you're reading this Phil!), that my neighbour has took a look at that letter incorrectly stuck through the wrong letterbox, and that my, yours, and everyone elses government has read my emails discussing next weekends RP session that is filled with terms that could be hilariously misconstrued. It's like when governments are coming up with hilariously unsupportable laws about people sharing naked pictures of exes, and the afformentioned exes being shocked that if they send a naked picture to someone, it might get seen by someone who isn't the recipient. Well, duh. Human beings are humans. We are stupid, forgetful, inquisitive, nosey, possessed of inappropriate senses of humour, and occasionally spiteful and vindictive. Never attribute to malice what could be explained through stupidity. This **** is going to happen. It may not be what you intended, but you kinda have to take it with the territory; you don't want a photo of your parts posted on the internet, don't take the damn photo in the first place.
Thorn en Distel Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.02.16 10:54:49 - [117] - Quote Aralyn Cormallen wrote: I always attribute this to a generation-thing; for all their tech-savvy, modern youngsters seem blithely oblivious to how easily things they post on the internet can get around. I for one have never assumed anything I've texted, emailed, facebooked, tweeted, put in the post, said on the phone, or written on a post-it stuck to the side of my monitor has only been read by the person I intended it for. I assume the nosey guy at work has took a browse through all the documents on my PC, and my browser history on my day off work (Hi if you're reading this Phil!), that my neighbour has took a look at that letter incorrectly stuck through the wrong letterbox, and that my, yours, and everyone elses government has read my emails discussing next weekends RP session that is filled with terms that could be hilariously misconstrued. It's like when governments are coming up with hilariously unsupportable laws about people sharing naked pictures of exes, and the afformentioned exes being shocked that if they send a naked picture to someone, it might get seen by someone who isn't the recipient. Well, duh. Human beings are humans. We are stupid, forgetful, inquisitive, nosey, possessed of inappropriate senses of humour, and occasionally spiteful and vindictive. Never attribute to malice what could be explained through stupidity. This **** is going to happen. It may not be what you intended, but you kinda have to take it with the territory; you don't want a photo of your parts posted on the internet, don't take the damn photo in the first place. Unfortunately, it seems to cross generations. My generation grew up under the shadow of 1984, with the radiation of Chernobyl crossing the continent, and multiple someone-almost-hit-the-red-button events. You'd expect some paranoia, yet I see people my age too in the news doing the most insanely stupid things, like accidentally sending private messages with e.g. XXX rated content to everyone in their contacts. And don't get me started on social media. It is really disturbing to me that people reveal so very much about themselves so easily, without apparently using even one braincell.
Thorn en Distel Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.02.16 10:57:38 - [118] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Thorn en Distel wrote: I think it's a bit of a legal mess. European privacy law is pretty strict, especially where the privacy of minors is concerned, and I think this might actually be in violation or at the least close to being so. I think a more explicit warning about what exactly you're letting yourself into when you activate that option and give out your API is definitely in order. Oh, CCP haves that very well covered, as the EULA forbids to share personal data through CCP's services. Then they should enforce this and ban every corp that demands API keys from their recruits /shrug.
Thorn en Distel Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2015.02.16 10:59:37 - [119] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Thorn en Distel wrote: I think it's a bit of a legal mess. European privacy law is pretty strict, especially where the privacy of minors is concerned, and I think this might actually be in violation or at the least close to being so. I think a more explicit warning about what exactly you're letting yourself into when you activate that option and give out your API is definitely in order. It has one already. That's what boggles me the most. How is this even being discussed at all? Thing is, I don't really remember seeing it there explicitly on the page, and I've made API keys for multiple accounts. Maybe it's a bit too easy to skim over.
Kiandoshia Applied Anarchy SpaceMonkey's Alliance 2130	Posted - 2015.02.16 11:22:01 - [120] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy pulls space handbreak Putting stuff on the internet compromises your privacy. Putting stuff in a fake mailbox in a video game... yeah you get the idea. CCP can read your mail =p If you are worried about your privacy, you should also stop using bank accounts.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 99	Posted - 2015.02.16 12:58:15 - [121] - Quote Liafcipe9000 wrote: Elenahina wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Go back to reading comprehension 101. I've never needed a full API, so when should I have learned that OTHERS giving THEIR full APIs would compromise MY evemails to them? What part of "A full API gives access to ALL evemails in a person's mailbox" is confusing you? You obviously understand the concept of a full API or you wouldn't be worried about it. Is the inbox part of the mailbox? Why yes, yes it is. As is the sent items box. The logic here is not herculean - as a picture, it pretty much paints itself. For the record, it also gives access to evemails they have sent to the trash bin,. assuming it hasn't been emptied. and you, as well as the other idiots verbally aggressing the OP, fail to understand that they were simply asking a question and that there is no complaint whatsoever. It's a question based on their own personal lack of understanding about a system they are willingly using to share information they deem personal and sensitive. I have little sympathy. Here's a similar scenario. Bob tells Anna a bunch of super sekrit personal stuff in corp chat (or even in a private conversation). Anna lets Charlie user her laptop. Charlie copies all the chat logs, because :sekrit squirrel:. Is it CCP's fault that Charlie now has the information Bob only wanted Anna to have? Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 99	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:06:08 - [122] - Quote Aralyn Cormallen wrote: I always attribute this to a generation-thing; for all their tech-savvy, modern youngsters seem blithely oblivious to how easily things they post on the internet can get around. I for one have never assumed anything I've texted, emailed, facebooked, tweeted, put in the post, said on the phone, or written on a post-it stuck to the side of my monitor has only been read by the person I intended it for. I cannot possibly express how hard I have tried to make this same point with my kids. They expect the system to protect them and then act surprised when it fails. I literally had to tell my teenage daughter to take our home address off her facebook page. Forget drinking, you should have to be 21 to use the internet. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9782	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:06:31 - [123] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. I don't know what else you thought full API meant? TBH this is pretty common knowledge, and given that GMs can also read your evemails, I can't think why anyone would ever put anything personal into one. That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a video game software property you never personally 'own'
Ned Thomas Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 876	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:09:44 - [124] - Quote So....is OP also concerned about every other email service where anything you send to other people could be viewed by anyone else who has access to that other person's email account? (i.e. a business email account) Vote Sabriz!
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 99	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:12:15 - [125] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a ~~video game software property you never personally 'own'~~ on any computer system that you do not have direct physical control of (and if it's connected to the Internet, all bets are off). No offense, Jenna, but I adjusted your post to more closely match reality. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9782	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:13:30 - [126] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Memphis Baas wrote: Just like with real emails, they're possibly readable by a slew of routers that the message passes through, and by the NSA, and your recipient friend has a permanent copy and can fully post all your private info and photos on the internets for everyone to see. So, do not send private information through the in-game email. If you have, already, delete it, and ask your friend to delete it. He/she probably will, if they're your friend. And if they don't, a bunch of recruiters and directors, who are probably so swamped by join requests and corporate drama issues that they don't even have time to eat, may see your in-game mail and disregard it. They're typically looking for signs that you're a spy, corp thief, or awoxer, really, and probably won't even care to read whatever private info you've disclosed. Maybe we're losing focus here. What bothers me is not that "my" API gives "my" information but that "their" API will give out "my" information too, and I have not been warned of that before using the evemail service. As a side note, isn't this standard 'carebear' thinking. "A video game company didn't warn me about sending mails in their video game that I didn't bother to think about after 6 years of opportunities of thinking about it". It's as if these people don't have the ability to think in terms of taking care of themselves and their own interests, it's always someone else's job (so that they can then complain about what a crap job someone is doing for them when they should do it for themselves). Personally, i've never sent a single EVE mail that I would want read out loud to the world, because this is a video game.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9782	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:14:18 - [127] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a ~~video game software property you never personally 'own'~~ on any computer system that you do not have direct physical control of (and if it's connected to the Internet, all bets are off). No offense, Jenna, but I adjusted your post to more closely match reality. I happily stand corrected
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9783	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:22:23 - [128] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Aralyn Cormallen wrote: I always attribute this to a generation-thing; for all their tech-savvy, modern youngsters seem blithely oblivious to how easily things they post on the internet can get around. I for one have never assumed anything I've texted, emailed, facebooked, tweeted, put in the post, said on the phone, or written on a post-it stuck to the side of my monitor has only been read by the person I intended it for. I cannot possibly express how hard I have tried to make this same point with my kids. They expect the system to protect them and then act surprised when it fails. I literally had to tell my teenage daughter to take our home address off her facebook page. Forget drinking, you should have to be 21 to use the internet. I thought I was the only one who thought that, I had to do that with my own teenaged daughter. it's like they don't have a sense of danger, and they are honestly surprised when things that the rest of us can see light years away happen. This thread reminds me of my teenage daughter lol. What bothers me is the double standard. I don't do face book (and I honest to God only have twitter for CCP and a few other game companies, new outlets and TV shows I like to keep up with) and thus have never been embroiled in a 'Facebook argument. EVERY female in my family (and my elderly father.....) have Facebook pages and are ALWAYS in to it with each other.... .....and when they aren't fighting with each other and outsiders on facebook they are pestering about "why don't you have a Facebook page??!?!". My standard reply is "YOU, YOU are the reason!" lol
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 622	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:26:04 - [129] - Quote ^^ The worst thing about facebook is having to explain to your mother why you've turned down her friend requests. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Ned Thomas Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 877	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:28:14 - [130] - Quote Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: ^^ The worst thing about facebook is having to explain to your mother why you've turned down her friend requests. What does it say when your mom declines your friend request? Vote Sabriz!
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 622	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:34:43 - [131] - Quote Ned Thomas wrote: Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: ^^ The worst thing about facebook is having to explain to your mother why you've turned down her friend requests. What does it say when your mom declines your friend request? lol She doesn't want you to know that she's a closet twilight and 50 shades fan, or that she secretly writes risque Inspector Poirot fanfic. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Ned Thomas Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 878	Posted - 2015.02.16 13:38:48 - [132] - Quote Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: risque Inspector Poirot fanfic My little grey cells feel violated by this concept. Not necessarily in a bad way, of course. Vote Sabriz!
Jimmy Farrere University of Caille Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:00:20 - [133] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a ~~video game software property you never personally 'own'~~ on any computer system that you do not have direct physical control of (and if it's connected to the Internet, all bets are off). No offense, Jenna, but I adjusted your post to more closely match reality. So you don't have an 'expectation of privacy' of the computer systems operated by your bank, or your employer, or your doctor? Strange world you live in.
Janeway84 Def Squadron Pride Before Fall 139	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:03:47 - [134] - Quote Well if you really wanted eve mails secure and private you could make up your own language and write in that language?
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 627	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:09:39 - [135] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: So you don't have an 'expectation of privacy' of the computer systems operated by your bank, or your employer, or your doctor? Nope, nope and nope. Your bank will quite happily sell your personal details on to any interested parties, your employer generally keeps an eye on all activity carried out on their systems for security purposes, and your doctor shares some of your personal information with relevant authorities. Quote: Strange world you live in. That would be the real world, what world do you live in? ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Ned Thomas Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 880	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:10:33 - [136] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: Elenahina wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a ~~video game software property you never personally 'own'~~ on any computer system that you do not have direct physical control of (and if it's connected to the Internet, all bets are off). No offense, Jenna, but I adjusted your post to more closely match reality. So you don't have an 'expectation of privacy' of the computer systems operated by your bank, or your employer, or your doctor? Strange world you live in. Theoretically, no. Laws and privacy policies aside, digital media is digital media and if someone has access to it (either with your permission or without) then they can use it to whatever end they see fit. Vote Sabriz!
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3759	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:12:44 - [137] - Quote To all the people jumping to conclussions about my e-privacy: - I don't owe any account on social networks, and never owned them - I've uploaded exactly 3 pictures of myself to internet - Googling my real name produces 10 results, of which 6 aren't me but persons with a similar surname - I don't owe a smartphone. My cellular was bought in august 2006 and I still use it I consider myself a tech-luddite. And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation 732	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:14:52 - [138] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: So you don't have an 'expectation of privacy' of the computer systems operated by your bank How do you think your credit rating gets determined? Ever recieved a Credit Card application from a company you've never contacted a month before your Credit Card is due to expire? I have. Quote: , or your employer, If you think you boss, your HR department, and the guy on the desk next to you can't and don't read all manner of things on your work computer, you must live a very oblivious life. Quote: or your doctor? You see that pretty receptionist at the doctors? She knows about your erectile dysfunction. And you see the label on the bag with your tables it with your name on. If you think your doctor attached that label, you are going to be disappointed.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4278	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:15:40 - [139] - Quote Vyl Vit wrote: This gets funnier and funnier with the spy crap. "Catch the lazy spy." You'd have to be an oaf to be reamed by a lazy spy. You'd deserve it, and the rest of the player base shouldn't have to endure faulty processes just 'cause the lazy CEO is an oaf and needs a crutch. It's a ridiculous argument, and I suggest any spy looking for a target use this thread to find people making this argument. API is anti-spy? There's your meat. Bon appetite. The real spy cannot be caught with the API. In fact, the real spy will feed the API in such a way as to create a footprint the so called intel-folks will not only fall for, but will be inclined to promote within the ranks and bestow with privileges and the keys to the kingdom. Anybody who doesn't understand this is really playing out of their depth, and the auto-feel good seeming security blanket this API seems to offer is just the thing to refer you to the paragraph above. That being said, and not as opinion but fact, there is no real reason to defend this other than to say, laziness should over rule logic. That's so 21st Century, too. We must be in vogue, no? "Ignorance is bliss," my momma always told me. you know so much about apis and intel and the REAL SPY and the LAZY SPY you must be like the top intel guy of your one-man corp i am in total awe
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9786	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:16:58 - [140] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. Nor does there need to be one. It's on the individual to figure somethings out for themselves, Like I did 8 years ago (I actually asked the dude who brought me in to EVE about how secure EVEmail was and he said "it's e-mail in a computer game, what do you think?") and which you failed to do for 6 years up till now. Stop blaming others (like CCP) for personal failings.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 100	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:17:27 - [141] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: .....and when they aren't fighting with each other and outsiders on facebook they are pestering about "why don't you have a Facebook page??!?!". My standard reply is "YOU, YOU are the reason!" lol I have twitter for CCP, and facebook for family. I never update my own facebook page, I just read the updates that hit my inbox, and then call them or send a card as appropriate for whatever just changed. It's like an RSS feed for my family. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:19:04 - [142] - Quote Aralyn Cormallen wrote: It's like when governments are coming up with hilariously unsupportable laws about people sharing naked pictures of exes, and the afformentioned exes being shocked that if they send a naked picture to someone, it might get seen by someone who isn't the recipient. Well, duh. Human beings are humans. We are stupid, forgetful, inquisitive, nosey, prideful, jealous, possessed of inappropriate senses of humour, and occasionally spiteful and vindictive. Never attribute to malice what could be explained through stupidity. This **** is going to happen. It may not be what you intended, but you kinda have to take it with the territory; you don't want a photo of your parts posted on the internet, don't take the damn photo in the first place. uh, wow, shut up
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 8963	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:20:23 - [143] - Quote Samsara Toldya wrote: CCP Falcon wrote: Regardless of what you're doing in EVE, you should never EVEmail anything, to any player that you'd consider private or personal, because there's nothing to stop the other player forwarding it on to someone else or sharing it publicly via copypasta, or the API system. As things are getting interesting: I do have several evemails from and to CCPs / GMs in my inbox. I am not allowed to share them (forbidden by EULA) I am allowed to share my full API. I can not control wether or not those with access to my API will publish those mails on platforms like reddit/pastebin using an anonymous account. So... if I want internal correspondence with CCP/GM to be published I simply give away my full API and won't risk a ban as I didn't break any rules. Simple as that? if you have a verified email address attached to your account the gm/devs will correspond using that. i have emails from gm's and devs in response to support tickets in my out of game email and absolutely nothing in-game. they do ask you for one and its hardly their fault if you haven't provided it. "I'm also quite confident that you are laughing and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers." =]I[=
Indahmawar Fazmarai 3759	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:21:01 - [144] - Quote Sir Substance wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: That's very smart but please come back to the OP: in 6 years, I did not need to learn of mails and full APIs, and so I didn't learn of it until I accidentally stumbled on that precious little info... 6 years and a few hundred evemails too late. There are two lessons to be learned from this: If you are not a UI designer: Pretend that communication sent over the internet is going to end up publically on your facebook page, unless you've encrypted it. Amen. I learned through somebody else's experience that: a) if it's on Internet, everybody can know it b) Internet rarely loses information and never forgets it Quote: If you are a UI designer: Things which have the potential to do damage should always have attention explicitly drawn to them. Blaming the user is not acceptable design practice. Hey, it's CCP what we're talking here... The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! Ingame chat channel: The Greater Fool Bar
Ned Thomas Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 881	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:22:29 - [145] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: To all the people jumping to conclussions about my e-privacy: - I don't owe any account on social networks, and never owned them - I've uploaded exactly 3 pictures of myself to internet - Googling my real name produces 10 results, of which 6 aren't me but persons with a similar surname - I don't owe a smartphone. My cellular was bought in august 2006 and I still use it I consider myself a tech-luddite. And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. Same as any other email service: don't send it if you don't want the entire world to have access to it. Vote Sabriz!
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 100	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:23:40 - [146] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: Elenahina wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a ~~video game software property you never personally 'own'~~ on any computer system that you do not have direct physical control of (and if it's connected to the Internet, all bets are off). No offense, Jenna, but I adjusted your post to more closely match reality. So you don't have an 'expectation of privacy' of the computer systems operated by your bank, or your employer, or your doctor? Strange world you live in. Point 1 - No. My bank routinely shares my information with departments within that I have no interest in talking to. It will also share that information with the relevant authories with (or without) my knowledge (read up on the Bank Secrecy Act if you think your finanancial records are private - they are required toi report certain things to the government and it is ILLEGAL for them to tell you they do it - how's that for privacy?) Point 2 - LOL. Do you honestly think anything you do on your employer's system is private? Even your HR data is viewable by, at the very least, your mangement chain, your HR rep, and anyone the company deems has a "business need to know". Point 3 - No. My doctor routinely shares my health information with my insurance company, other doctors, and the relevant authorities. That's what all those forms you sign and don't read say. It is a strange world we live in, but unfortunately, it's the only one we have. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9787	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:24:21 - [147] - Quote On Another side note, anyone view this thread and get the "Gee, I didn't know McDonalds coffee and my private parts don't mix and now I'm surprised, I should sue someone because i didn't know coffee was hot" feel from this thread
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:26:46 - [148] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. Nor does there need to be one. It's on the individual to figure somethings out for themselves, Like I did 8 years ago (I actually asked the dude who brought me in to EVE about how secure EVEmail was and he said "it's e-mail in a computer game, what do you think?") and which you failed to do for 6 years up till now. Stop blaming others (like CCP) for personal failings. it's a bit different when the issue might involve personal information, and it becomes less about Eve Is Hard, Deal With It at the point where someone's ignorance might lead to them revealing personal information, even if it is partially or fully their fault, and where it really has nothing to do with the game, it's fine to idiot-proof it a little more. especially considering they're paying customers. failing to provide full information where it might become a real-life matter (and where it's not obvious the info you enterisn't designed to be secure from other users) is deffo the service provider's fault
Ned Thomas Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 884	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:27:11 - [149] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: On Another side note, anyone view this thread and get the "Gee, I didn't know McDonalds coffee and my private parts don't mix and now I'm surprised, I should sue someone because i didn't know coffee was hot" feel from this thread Seems more comparable to some of the warnings you see on power tools, like "do not operate chainsaw while intoxicated and holding a muskrat". Vote Sabriz!
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 102	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:29:47 - [150] - Quote Ned Thomas wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: On Another side note, anyone view this thread and get the "Gee, I didn't know McDonalds coffee and my private parts don't mix and now I'm surprised, I should sue someone because i didn't know coffee was hot" feel from this thread Seems more comparable to some of the warnings you see on power tools, like "do not operate chainsaw while intoxicated and holding a muskrat". Please do not attempt to stop chain with your leg. My favorite are the ones that say : !!!!!!WARNING!!!!!! Saw blade is sharp. No ****? Is that how those new fangled things work? I mean I would expect a warning if the handle was wrapped in rusty razor wire, but... Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:30:37 - [151] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: On Another side note, anyone view this thread and get the "Gee, I didn't know McDonalds coffee and my private parts don't mix and now I'm surprised, I should sue someone because i didn't know coffee was hot" feel from this thread that person suffered third-degree burns and was hospitalised for a week during the case mcdonalds was shown to have known about the hazard for years mcdonalds also admitted that the coffee wasn't suitable for human consumption
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9789	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:32:22 - [152] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. Nor does there need to be one. It's on the individual to figure somethings out for themselves, Like I did 8 years ago (I actually asked the dude who brought me in to EVE about how secure EVEmail was and he said "it's e-mail in a computer game, what do you think?") and which you failed to do for 6 years up till now. Stop blaming others (like CCP) for personal failings. it's a bit different when the issue might involve personal information, and it becomes less about Eve Is Hard, Deal With It at the point where someone's ignorance might lead to them revealing personal information, even if it is partially or fully their fault, and where it really has nothing to do with the game, it's fine to idiot-proof it a little more. especially considering they're paying customers. failing to provide full information where it might become a real-life matter (and where it's not obvious the info you enterisn't designed to be secure from other users) is deffo the service provider's fault At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game?
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 630	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:35:38 - [153] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: To all the people jumping to conclussions about my e-privacy: - I don't owe any account on social networks, and never owned them Forums are a form of social network so you're mistaken. - I've uploaded exactly 3 pictures of myself to internet Irrelevant, if your friends use social networks you'll probably find that there's way more than 3 pictures of you on the internet. - Googling my real name produces 10 results, of which 6 aren't me but persons with a similar surname Googling my real name, with or without my unusual middle name, returns between 42k and 15 million+ results (depending on the exact search terms). I'm pretty sure none relate to me, because A: I use pseudonyms and B: when I do use my real name I make damn sure that I can lock it down so it's not publically available. - I don't owe a smartphone. My cellular was bought in august 2006 and I still use it Which makes no difference at all, smartphones don't automagically put your information on the internet, they require user interaction for that to happen I consider myself a tech-luddite. It shows in your expectations of privacy on the internet. If you want privacy on the internet you have to take steps to ensure it, not rely on others to do it for you. And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. It bothers me that you have an expectation of privacy in a virtual environment where nothing belongs to you, but actually belongs to a third party who can, and will share your details if they see fit. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. There is, it's in the EULA as has been posted elsewhere in this thread. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Ned Thomas Hellbound Turkeys Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 884	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:35:43 - [154] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Ned Thomas wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: On Another side note, anyone view this thread and get the "Gee, I didn't know McDonalds coffee and my private parts don't mix and now I'm surprised, I should sue someone because i didn't know coffee was hot" feel from this thread Seems more comparable to some of the warnings you see on power tools, like "do not operate chainsaw while intoxicated and holding a muskrat". Please do not attempt to stop chain with your leg. My favorite are the ones that say : !!!!!!WARNING!!!!!! Saw blade is sharp. No ***? Is that how those new fangled things work? I mean I would expect a warning if the handle was wrapped in rusty razor wire, but... I've honest to god seen "this drill is not intended to alleviate or cure any known medical condition". At least they left open the possibility* that the drill could have medicinal value in the future. Vote Sabriz!
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:36:55 - [155] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? just because it's not entirely obvious - it looks like a normal mail client i think people'll have a basic degree of trust with the service provider and are aware of the possibility the other person will have access to the mail it's not at all obvious that the mail may appear to another user e: durr. that should say "are aware the other person may share the contents of the mail"
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9791	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:38:16 - [156] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: On Another side note, anyone view this thread and get the "Gee, I didn't know McDonalds coffee and my private parts don't mix and now I'm surprised, I should sue someone because i didn't know coffee was hot" feel from this thread that person suffered third-degree burns and was hospitalised for a week during the case mcdonalds was shown to have known about the hazard for years mcdonalds also admitted that the coffee wasn't suitable for human consumption McDonalds made it's coffee hot enough to still be hot when you get home. They still do, but it's 158 degrees instead of 185. At no point (even now) is holding a cup of hot liquid WITH YOUR KNEES a good idea. That a Civil Jury awarded someone money for their stupidity (and that wasn't the 1st time) isn't an indicator of McDonalds wrong doing, it's an indicator that at least 12 suckers are born every minute.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:39:43 - [157] - Quote Ned Thomas wrote: I've honest to god seen "this drill is not intended to alleviate or cure any known medical condition". At least they left open the possibility that the drill could have medicinal value in the future. i heard drills are used in brain surgery. i guess it's to cover the manufacturer's arse in case some dumb surgery's procerer tries to save a few bucks?
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:42:39 - [158] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: McDonalds made it's coffee hot enough to still be hot when you get home. They still do, but it's 158 degrees instead of 185. At no point (even now) is holding a cup of hot liquid WITH YOUR KNEES a good idea. i googled it and it sounds like most people just drank it drank coffee that the company knew was insuitable for human consumption mcdonalds has an eat-in area and was fully aware people would drink it when it was served to them that makes it mcdonald's fault
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9791	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:44:04 - [159] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? just because it's not entirely obvious - it looks like a normal mail client So did the user forget that they had to login to EVE to use it? At some point, people have to have some kind of responsibility for their own well being. The more you make excuses for dumb behavior, the more if it you get.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 207	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:47:53 - [160] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: To all the people jumping to conclussions about my e-privacy: - I don't owe any account on social networks, and never owned them - I've uploaded exactly 3 pictures of myself to internet - Googling my real name produces 10 results, of which 6 aren't me but persons with a similar surname - I don't owe a smartphone. My cellular was bought in august 2006 and I still use it I consider myself a tech-luddite. And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. no warnings anywhere yea,,,, https://community.eveonline.com/support/api-key/
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:48:00 - [161] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? just because it's not entirely obvious - it looks like a normal mail client So did the user forget that they had to login to EVE to use it? At some point, people have to have some kind of responsibility for their own well being. The more you make excuses for dumb behavior, the more if it you get. it looks like a normal mail client. those aren't designed to release information to other users. in eve, it is. that's not obvious. the api system is not obvious. i don't expect people to know about such out-of-the-way things right when they begin the game. that's an unreasonable expectation it's not at all dumb behaviour to be ignorant of some things when you begin the game
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 296	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:49:02 - [162] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? just because it's not entirely obvious - it looks like a normal mail client Well, it IS a normal mail client. It is easy and quite normal for recipients of email to have their email clients set up to forward all incoming mail to all kinds of places and third party applications. An eve user having an API key set up to forward their mail to third party applications is exactly the same as what a lot of people do with their "real" email. Do you people run around screaming that Mozilla should remove all options dealing with automatic mail forwarding from Thunderbird, because a recipient might forward your mails to someone else? Quote: It looks like a normal mail client. those aren't designed to release information to other users. This is the dumbest thing I have read all day. Sending information to other users is LITERALLY the purpose of a mail client.
Soldarius Kosher Nostra The 99 Percent 1095	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:50:24 - [163] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. You sent your personal info to someone, and then complain that someone might be able to read it via an API call. Do you even realize what you're saying? You yourself released that information. If you didn't want it released, why did you release it? Internetz 101, m8. http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 633	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:51:10 - [164] - Quote Is it too early for this? ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9792	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:52:17 - [165] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: To all the people jumping to conclussions about my e-privacy: - I don't owe any account on social networks, and never owned them - I've uploaded exactly 3 pictures of myself to internet - Googling my real name produces 10 results, of which 6 aren't me but persons with a similar surname - I don't owe a smartphone. My cellular was bought in august 2006 and I still use it I consider myself a tech-luddite. And it bothers me that CCP's shoddy corporation mechanics and questionable API pulls end up with anyone reading my answers to other people asking for personal matters if those persons don't understand what "full API" means to my privacy and not just theirs. Specially since there is no warning anywhere. no warnings anywhere yea,,,, https://community.eveonline.com/support/api-key/ yea, how dare they not warn anyone! [quote=CCP]What is an API key? What do I use it for? The API key is a private code that identifies your account and allows third party programs and web sites to access information about your characters and corporations. Using this data, such utilities can improve your EVE experience by providing useful functionality such as wallet exports, skill training notifications, and other tools. Is this safe? Can someone steal my account? It is safe to provide your API key to applications and web sites as long as you are prepared to allow the application or web site to see your character and corporation information. You can specify which information is accessible for each customizable API key. Sharing an API key does NOT give people access to your account while sharing your account password would. Therein lies the whole purpose of API keys. An API key only allows the recipient to view your character and corporation data but gives them NO control over it. They are NOT able to log in to the game or post on the forums with the API information. No part of the API key information is in any way generated from your account password - there is no way to calculate your password using this information. This is the only safe way to give programs and web sites access to your data. Do not give out your account username or password to any person, program, or web site. Please keep in mind that doing so is a violation of the EULA and can lead to account termination. I still don't like it. If you are not certain that the web site or program asking for your API key is safe, please do not give it to them! You are responsible for any usage of the information obtained by using your API keys. I gave someone my API key and now I want them to stop using it! If you believe that someone is misusing your API key, you can delete it from the list above or simply change the Verification Code. Please note that all programs and web sites that are using your old API key information will no longer be able to access your data unless you provide them with the updated info or a new API key. You can view API activity on your account by using the API Access Log. If you believe someone is misusing one of your API keys, please change the Verification Code or delete the API key from the list above.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 207	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:52:32 - [166] - Quote Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: Is it too early for this? no not at all,, if you ask me it's late.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:53:38 - [167] - Quote Godfrey Silvarna wrote: This is the dumbest thing I have read all day. Sending information to other uses is LITERALLY the whole purpose of a mail client. 'other' being third-party users. don't be dense. Quote: Do you people run around screaming that Mozilla should remove all options dealing with automatic mail forwarding from Thunderbird, because a recipient might forward your mails to someone else? did i suggest that api functions be removed? no. don't be dense. did i suggest that most users of mail are aware of the possibility that the intended recipient may do something with the contents of the mail? yes. learn to read.
Jallukola 39	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:53:41 - [168] - Quote That is why you always keep the EVE Mail cleared everytime you move to another corporation, wipe it all and tell contacts to stay in touch via third party. The greatest battle music of all time. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67MPxnPHBNk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16RCvtziXj0
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9792	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:55:05 - [169] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? just because it's not entirely obvious - it looks like a normal mail client So did the user forget that they had to login to EVE to use it? At some point, people have to have some kind of responsibility for their own well being. The more you make excuses for dumb behavior, the more if it you get. it looks like a normal mail client. those aren't designed to release information to other users. in eve, it is. that's not obvious. the api system is not obvious. i don't expect people to know about such out-of-the-way things right when they begin the game. that's an unreasonable expectation it's not at all dumb behaviour to be ignorant of some things when you begin the game The OP didn't begin the game, he's been here for 6 years. Still that excuse making is useless. If someone is dumb enough to not understand it's email in a video game, whatever happens is on them. Being old enough to us a computer means being old enough to take at least some responsibility for yourself.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:56:38 - [170] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: yea, how dare they not warn anyone! most people don't read every single piece of documentation related to the service. in fact, i'm willing to bet you haven't read all the documentation and eulas you've ever signed. there's too much and normal people only have so much time ~~in the day~~ to live their damn lives at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9792	Posted - 2015.02.16 14:59:43 - [171] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: yea, how dare they not warn anyone! most people don't read every single piece of documentation related to the service. in fact, i'm willing to bet you haven't read all the documentation and eulas you've ever signed. there's too much and normal people only have so much time ~~in the day~~ to live their damn lives at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api I know you're smarter than this. The thing I quoted IS ON THE API PAGE. You literally cannot access your apis without seeing what i quoted. Why are you championing irresponsibility and clueless-ness.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:01:34 - [172] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: The OP didn't begin the game, he's been here for 6 years. i seriously don't care about the op Quote: Still that excuse making is useless. If someone is dumb enough to not understand it's email in a video game i've said repeatedly that it's not entirely the users' fault if they misinterpret the security of evemail. that implies some fault. i am saying it's an understandable mistake to make, and one that's ok to compensate for. it's not a case of being dumb, it's a case of being ignorant. where the information is not obviously accessible or hidden in ten pages of legal bullshit, that can be considered a fault of the provider
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:02:22 - [173] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: yea, how dare they not warn anyone! most people don't read every single piece of documentation related to the service. in fact, i'm willing to bet you haven't read all the documentation and eulas you've ever signed. there's too much and normal people only have so much time ~~in the day~~ to live their damn lives at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api I know you're smarter than this. The thing I quoted IS ON THE API PAGE. You literally cannot access your apis without seeing what i quoted. Why are you championing irresponsibility and clueless-ness. evemails can be accessed from the recipient's api. if you ever need me to help you understand eve online, i'm here to help.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:02:35 - [174] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: yea, how dare they not warn anyone! most people don't read every single piece of documentation related to the service. in fact, i'm willing to bet you haven't read all the documentation and eulas you've ever signed. there's too much and normal people only have so much time ~~in the day~~ to live their damn lives at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api most people are stupid.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:05:45 - [175] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: yea, how dare they not warn anyone! most people don't read every single piece of documentation related to the service. in fact, i'm willing to bet you haven't read all the documentation and eulas you've ever signed. there's too much and normal people only have so much time ~~in the day~~ to live their damn lives at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api most people are stupid. which is a good case for our services being designed to cater to our stupid needs
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:06:59 - [176] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: where the information is not obviously accessible or hidden in ten pages of legal bullshit, that can be considered a fault of the provider it's the providers fault that someone refused to read ? or it's the providers fault for not explaining it barney style ? because this is pretty clear.
Godfrey Silvarna Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 300	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:07:53 - [177] - Quote If you call someone, they can record your phone call and send it to FOX News. Should phones have warnings about other telephone users? If you send someone a letter, they can take a BILLION photocopies of it and scatter them all over the continent if they wish. Should mailboxes have warnings that you should not send mail to people you don't trust? If you send someone an email, they can forward it to their entire contact list and all the mailing lists of the world. Should all computers come with warning stickers about not sending sensitive information to suspicious people? If you send someone an EVEmail, they can copy paste it to anywhere, forward it to anyone or make it readable by anyone if they wish. Should EVE come with warnings about not trusting random people with sensitive information?
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9793	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:08:35 - [178] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: yea, how dare they not warn anyone! most people don't read every single piece of documentation related to the service. in fact, i'm willing to bet you haven't read all the documentation and eulas you've ever signed. there's too much and normal people only have so much time ~~in the day~~ to live their damn lives at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api I know you're smarter than this. The thing I quoted IS ON THE API PAGE. You literally cannot access your apis without seeing what i quoted. Why are you championing irresponsibility and clueless-ness. evemails can be accessed from the recipient's api. if you ever need me to help you understand eve online, i'm here to help. You think you're helping, all who 'think of the (stupid) children' think that. What really helps is telling someone "you are responsible for yourself". Anyone with any brains knew from day one ( day two at the most) that video game email isn't secure in any way , even if the video game company doesn't tell you. Talking to you is exactly like talking to my kids about this. With one, i decided to let them be hard-headed since he wanted to argue with me. Their is still an....unflattering....picture of him floating around the internet forever. He is no longer hard-headed on the issue.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:10:20 - [179] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: where the information is not obviously accessible or hidden in ten pages of legal bullshit, that can be considered a fault of the provider it's the providers fault that someone refused to read ? or it's the providers fault for not explaining it barney style ? because this is pretty clear. where most people don't read it before using the evemail service, which i'm willing to bet occurs, yes, it needs to be more obvious. the issue is not comprehending the information, it is an issue of the information being delivered to the users effectively
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:11:36 - [180] - Quote Godfrey Silvarna wrote: If you call someone, they can record your phone call and send it to FOX News. Should phones have warnings about other telephone users? If you send someone a letter, they can take a BILLION photocopies of it and scatter them all over the continent if they wish. Should mailboxes have warnings that you should not send mail to people you don't trust? If you send someone an email, they can forward it to their entire contact list and all the mailing lists of the world. Should all computers come with warning stickers about not sending sensitive information to suspicious people? If you send someone an EVEmail, they can copy paste it to anywhere, forward it to anyone or make it readable by anyone if they wish. Should EVE come with warnings about not trusting random people with sensitive information? if you want to read my posts again, you can go to eve-search and see all the posts made just by me. please do so before replying again, and try to comprehend them this time
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:12:44 - [181] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: which is a good case for our services being designed to cater to our stupid needs what one post shows up talking bollox about API keys and how the OP didn't know what it does, even though it clearly explains on the API key management page what it does, so now the sky is falling? what exactly do you want?
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:15:07 - [182] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Anyone with any brains knew from day one ( day two at the most) that video game email isn't secure in any way , even if the video game company doesn't tell you. where the system looks like a normal mail client, but is designed to allow someone you didn't expect to have access to your information? no, when someone encounters something familiar, they'll assume it has the same qualities as what they're familiar with that's why this in particular needs to be explained properly
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:15:35 - [183] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: where the information is not obviously accessible or hidden in ten pages of legal bullshit, that can be considered a fault of the provider it's the providers fault that someone refused to read ? or it's the providers fault for not explaining it barney style ? because this is pretty clear. where most people don't read it before using the evemail service, which i'm willing to bet occurs, yes, it needs to be more obvious. the issue is not comprehending the information, it is an issue of the information being delivered to the users effectively what ?? it's on the fecking page you get the API keys from. if dumb fecker No.1 refuses to read it that's their own stupid fault. you're making no sense at all, what do you want ? someone from CCP to phone the new user and walk them through it? ffs.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9795	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:16:15 - [184] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Godfrey Silvarna wrote: If you call someone, they can record your phone call and send it to FOX News. Should phones have warnings about other telephone users? If you send someone a letter, they can take a BILLION photocopies of it and scatter them all over the continent if they wish. Should mailboxes have warnings that you should not send mail to people you don't trust? If you send someone an email, they can forward it to their entire contact list and all the mailing lists of the world. Should all computers come with warning stickers about not sending sensitive information to suspicious people? If you send someone an EVEmail, they can copy paste it to anywhere, forward it to anyone or make it readable by anyone if they wish. Should EVE come with warnings about not trusting random people with sensitive information? if you want to read my posts again, you can go to eve-search and see all the posts made just by me. please do so before replying again, and try to comprehend them this time lol, I don't think it's everyone else with comprehension problems here.After time has passed, you've gotten up from your computer and thought about it for a while, You'll realize your in the wrong here, you fell into an enlargement trap (it happens to all of us). You are basically defending indefensible stupidity on the part of users of video game software (not at all unlike the dumb people who put personal info on face book or teens who 'sext' each other and expect that to be 'private'). I'm sorry, but it's obvious to everyone who can think clearly, this is a video game, it's email is even less secure than real email, and you should have known that before using it (6 years prior if we're talking about the OP).
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:16:19 - [185] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: which is a good case for our services being designed to cater to our stupid needs what one post shows up talking bollox about API keys and how the OP didn't know what it does, even though it clearly explains on the API key management page what it does, so now the sky is falling? what exactly do you want? i want you to read and comprehend my posts before replying again, please
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:17:59 - [186] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: which is a good case for our services being designed to cater to our stupid needs what one post shows up talking bollox about API keys and how the OP didn't know what it does, even though it clearly explains on the API key management page what it does, so now the sky is falling? what exactly do you want? i want you to read and comprehend my posts before replying again, please I'm sorry, i can't understand what you're saying, you're providing this point of view, so provider. make it so i can understand
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5110	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:18:03 - [187] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: The inbox should not be shared. And in any decent company, quoted mails would be censored before delivering them through API. My outgoing mail regarded as your incoming mail is nobody's business. You can not share it and certanly CCP can't make a shoddy work that forces you to share your inbox without warning everyone writing to you. Uh, no. Once you send a mail to someone, the contents of that mail are theirs too. If you sent me an evemail for example, I can create a website about it, pop it up in pink comic sans with a sparkly border if I want to. Erica Dusette wrote: You could say the same about TS, it's not a secure phone line yet corpies talk about personal stuff on there all the time and can (and are) often recorded while doing so. Which they also shouldn't treat as private. Erica Dusette wrote: I agree with the OP that mail access from API is wrong, but I deal with it personally. Well I like being able to read all my mails through the API, since it means I can serve them up to myself - for example on my phone. At the end of the day EVEmails aren't private. Accept that and use them accordingly. Benny Ohu wrote: at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api Out of curiosity, how would you do this without disrupting the API? The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9795	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:18:28 - [188] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Anyone with any brains knew from day one ( day two at the most) that video game email isn't secure in any way , even if the video game company doesn't tell you. where the system looks like a normal mail client, but is designed to allow someone you didn't expect to have access to your information? no, when someone encounters something familiar, they'll assume it has the same qualities as what they're familiar with that's why this in particular needs to be explained properly See, you're clinging to nonsense. Like I said, you're smarter than this, you're probably just haivng a bad day. As I said, unless the user FORGOT they logged in to EVE of EVE-gate to use evemail (due to some medical condition lol), there is no excuse for not knowing, and CCP hasn't done anything wrong. People like you are why we live in this sue happy world btw.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 104	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:19:22 - [189] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Anyone with any brains knew from day one ( day two at the most) that video game email isn't secure in any way , even if the video game company doesn't tell you. where the system looks like a normal mail client, but is designed to allow someone you didn't expect to have access to your information? no, when someone encounters something familiar, they'll assume it has the same qualities as what they're familiar with that's why this in particular needs to be explained properly If they're familar with an email client, then they should be familar with the idea that if the recipient of your email allows other people to freely access their email, they have access to the mail you sent. This is no different, despite the mental gymnastics. Let me break it down for you. Bob sends Alice an mail containing their home address and phone number. Alice allows Charles access to her mail account. Charles can see Bob's mail. There is literally no difference between a normal email client and in game mail. Hell it doesn't matter if it was sent in a letter via the postal system. If Alice allows access to her mail, anyone with that access can read anything inside it, regardless of the Bob's personal privacy concerns. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp? Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Jimmy Farrere University of Caille Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:20:08 - [190] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? That's exactly my point. The mail system in every other online game I have ever come across works exactly as you'd expect. It is secure as long a. No one gains access to my account b. No one gains access to the recipients account and c. No one gains access to the data stored on the servers of the game operator. That is a security level I am happy enough to share certain personal information under (eg. my real name, my email address or possibly my mobile phone number). My problem is with Eve's in game mail system being several steps less secure than it first appears to be and not explicitly telling you about it. There is no reason for a new player to think that Eve-mail is any less secure than the mail system in any other game, or their facebook or twitter accounts and nowhere are they told it is. That is the problem.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5110	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:21:21 - [191] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: what ?? it's on the fecking page you get the API keys from. if dumb fecker No.1 refuses to read it that's their own stupid fault. you're making no sense at all, what do you want ? someone from CCP to phone the new user and walk them through it? ffs. While not agreeing that evemail should be treated like email, you have missed the point Benny was making. Take for example, Tim and Bob. They are friends and start EVE together. Tim EVEmails Bob something personal and private. Later, Bob signs up for the API key and joins the corp owned by Dave submitting his full API key. At this point Dave has access to Tim's personal information which he sent to Bob though Bob's API, even though Tim has never visited the API page, thus has never read the API key terms. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9795	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:23:24 - [192] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? That's exactly my point. The mail system in every other online game I have ever come across works exactly as you'd expect. It is secure as long a. No one gains access to my account b. No one gains access to the recipients account and c. No one gains access to the data stored on the servers of the game operator. That is a security level I am happy enough to share certain personal information under (eg. my real name, my email address or possibly my mobile phone number). My problem is with Eve's in game mail system being several steps less secure than it first appears to be and not explicitly telling you about it. There is no reason for a new player to think that Eve-mail is any less secure than the mail system in any other game, or their facebook or twitter accounts and nowhere are they told it is. That is the problem. It's not a problem if you do the smart thing and treat ALL email as if it wasn't secure. Somehow, expecting people to be smart about the internet (or life, or playing EVE) is considered being mean and uncaring lol.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5110	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:23:54 - [193] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: At what point does a person using EVE mail not know it's mail....in a video game? That's exactly my point. The mail system in every other online game I have ever come across works exactly as you'd expect. It is secure as long a. No one gains access to my account b. No one gains access to the recipients account and c. No one gains access to the data stored on the servers of the game operator. That is a security level I am happy enough to share certain personal information under (eg. my real name, my email address or possibly my mobile phone number). My problem is with Eve's in game mail system being several steps less secure than it first appears to be and not explicitly telling you about it. There is no reason for a new player to think that Eve-mail is any less secure than the mail system in any other game, or their facebook or twitter accounts and nowhere are they told it is. That is the problem. It's actually just as secure, just in the case of B, the recipient is explicitly supplying access to his account to a third party. The same would be true in any game if someone you sent a mail to provided a third party access to their mails. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9795	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:24:19 - [194] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: what ?? it's on the fecking page you get the API keys from. if dumb fecker No.1 refuses to read it that's their own stupid fault. you're making no sense at all, what do you want ? someone from CCP to phone the new user and walk them through it? ffs. While not agreeing that evemail should be treated like email, you have missed the point Benny was making. Take for example, Tim and Bob. They are friends and start EVE together. Tim EVEmails Bob something personal and private. Later, Bob signs up for the API key and joins the corp owned by Dave submitting his full API key. At this point Dave has access to Tim's personal information which he sent to Bob though Bob's API, even though Tim has never visited the API page, thus has never read the API key terms. I knew that commander save-the children would arrive eventually
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5110	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:25:24 - [195] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: what ?? it's on the fecking page you get the API keys from. if dumb fecker No.1 refuses to read it that's their own stupid fault. you're making no sense at all, what do you want ? someone from CCP to phone the new user and walk them through it? ffs. While not agreeing that evemail should be treated like email, you have missed the point Benny was making. Take for example, Tim and Bob. They are friends and start EVE together. Tim EVEmails Bob something personal and private. Later, Bob signs up for the API key and joins the corp owned by Dave submitting his full API key. At this point Dave has access to Tim's personal information which he sent to Bob though Bob's API, even though Tim has never visited the API page, thus has never read the API key terms. I knew that commander save-the children would arrive eventually Indeed, commander save-the children is here and AGREEING WITH YOU, genius. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:26:42 - [196] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api Out of curiosity, how would you do this without disrupting the API? one-time suppressable info message with a link to api info on the first time eve-mail is opened. the main issue is the idea that someone other than the recipient can access the mail without the recipient sharing the contents directly, and that it's plausible for an average user to believe that evemail is reasonably secure from third parties (assuming a basic degree of trust between the sender and the service provider) providing additional info on a game mechanic in this manner i wouldn't usually advocate, but it's also plausible the average user'll mail something personal to a friend or something if they're in the belief that third-party users wouldn't have access. the plausible real-life link is why it's partially on the service provider to ensure as far as is practical that the user is aware of the true functions of the mail service i don't think anything more than a warning message is practical without causing disruption to others. at least, i can't think of anything vOv
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:28:14 - [197] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: what ?? it's on the fecking page you get the API keys from. if dumb fecker No.1 refuses to read it that's their own stupid fault. you're making no sense at all, what do you want ? someone from CCP to phone the new user and walk them through it? ffs. While not agreeing that evemail should be treated like email, you have missed the point Benny was making. Take for example, Tim and Bob. They are friends and start EVE together. Tim EVEmails Bob something personal and private. Later, Bob signs up for the API key and joins the corp owned by Dave submitting his full API key. At this point Dave has access to Tim's personal information which he sent to Bob though Bob's API, even though Tim has never visited the API page, thus has never read the API key terms. i get his point.. this is my point.. tim sent personal information to bob (stupid person) who gave access to a third party. did bob read the API key terms? maybe,, maybe not,, it's not CCP's fault. don't you think the fault is with Tim and Bob ? lol
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9796	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:28:29 - [198] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: what ?? it's on the fecking page you get the API keys from. if dumb fecker No.1 refuses to read it that's their own stupid fault. you're making no sense at all, what do you want ? someone from CCP to phone the new user and walk them through it? ffs. While not agreeing that evemail should be treated like email, you have missed the point Benny was making. Take for example, Tim and Bob. They are friends and start EVE together. Tim EVEmails Bob something personal and private. Later, Bob signs up for the API key and joins the corp owned by Dave submitting his full API key. At this point Dave has access to Tim's personal information which he sent to Bob though Bob's API, even though Tim has never visited the API page, thus has never read the API key terms. I knew that commander save-the children would arrive eventually Indeed, commander save-the children is here and AGREEING WITH YOU, genius. Upon seeing Lucas Kell agree with me I have discovered that i am wrong (must be if Lucas agrees) and surrender peacefully to Benny Ohu in exchange for protect from commander Save'Em Kell!!!
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4280	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:29:12 - [199] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: See, you're clinging to nonsense. Like I said, you're smarter than this, you're probably just haivng a bad day. As I said, unless the user FORGOT they logged in to EVE of EVE-gate to use evemail (due to some medical condition lol), there is no excuse for not knowing, and CCP hasn't done anything wrong. People like you are why we live in this sue happy world btw. Jenn aSide wrote: lol, I don't think it's everyone else with comprehension problems here.After time has passed, you've gotten up from your computer and thought about it for a while, You'll realize your in the wrong here, you fell into an enlargement trap (it happens to all of us). fallacious garbage
Lors Dornick Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet 1181	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:36:10 - [200] - Quote The security of any form of electronic communication whether it be e-mail, eve-mail, eve-chat or any other chats is bordering close to none. With very few and special exceptions everything you type, say or display on the Internet is about as secure as a postcard, with the possible addition of a padlock on a siblings diary that can be picked with a paper clip. If you want security, apply it _outside_ the channel, encrypt locally, use AAA pinpads and so on. But most of all, ponder what information your are willing to share, with whom and over what channel. Never ask why someone else isn't protecting your privacy if you can't be arsed to keep those 3 questions in your head before transmitting. Information Security isn't about technology or corporate rules, it's a process that starts in the mind of every single user. CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4281	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:36:41 - [201] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Lucas Kell wrote: Benny Ohu wrote: at this point it's acceptable for the service provider to respond to how people might actually be using the service. this can easily be done without disrupting the function of the api Out of curiosity, how would you do this without disrupting the API? one-time suppressable info message with a link to api info on the first time eve-mail is opened. the main issue is the idea that someone other than the recipient can access the mail without the recipient sharing the contents directly, and that it's plausible for an average user to believe that evemail is reasonably secure from third parties (assuming a basic degree of trust between the sender and the service provider) providing additional info on a game mechanic in this manner i wouldn't usually advocate, but it's also plausible the average user'll mail something personal to a friend or something if they're in the belief that third-party users wouldn't have access. the plausible real-life link is why it's partially on the service provider to ensure as far as is practical that the user is aware of the true functions of the mail service i don't think anything more than a warning message is practical without causing disruption to others. at least, i can't think of anything vOv what's practical is a question of how common this 'plausible situation' is like, if it doesn't happen at all, obviously there's no action that needs to be taken if it happens all the time (it doesn't), then the function of the api would probably need to be removed i don't know how to discover how commonly this mistake is made
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5111	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:40:42 - [202] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: one-time suppressable info message with a link to api info on the first time eve-mail is opened. the main issue is the idea that someone other than the recipient can access the mail without the recipient sharing the contents directly, and that it's plausible for an average user to believe that evemail is reasonably secure from third parties (assuming a basic degree of trust between the sender and the service provider) providing additional info on a game mechanic in this manner i wouldn't usually advocate, but it's also plausible the average user'll mail something personal to a friend or something if they're in the belief that third-party users wouldn't have access. the plausible real-life link is why it's partially on the service provider to ensure as far as is practical that the user is aware of the true functions of the mail service i don't think anything more than a warning message is practical without causing disruption to others. at least, i can't think of anything vOv That seems reasonable. While I'm of the opinion that people should take a bit of responsibility for themselves, I'm fine with information being presented to a user like this, and if they then choose to ignore it, that's their issue. Probably wouldn't be much work to add in either. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5111	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:43:57 - [203] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: i get his point.. this is my point.. tim sent personal information to bob (stupid person) who gave access to a third party. did bob read the API key terms? maybe,, maybe not,, it's not CCP's fault. don't you think the fault is with Tim and Bob ? lol yeah, I think the issue is with Tim for sending it and Bob for sharing it, though it's more understandable that Tim wouldn't know as he hasn't set up a key and that's where that info is given out. I like Bennys idea of just giving that notification when you first open you mail however. That to me is a better place to say "hey, anything you send in here may be shared, so don't be a douche and send personal information", as you see it before you send the mail, not just if and when you choose to set up a key. That said, I don't think it's a particularly large problem and like you say, it's their own faults, so it's more of a "nice to have" than a "need to have" thing. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5111	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:44:55 - [204] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Upon seeing Lucas Kell agree with me I have discovered that i am wrong (must be if Lucas agrees) and surrender peacefully to Benny Ohu in exchange for protect from commander Save'Em Kell!!! It's OK, I've been won over by his simple idea for a solution now, so you can go back to hating. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:48:29 - [205] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: i get his point.. this is my point.. tim sent personal information to bob (stupid person) who gave access to a third party. did bob read the API key terms? maybe,, maybe not,, it's not CCP's fault. don't you think the fault is with Tim and Bob ? lol yeah, I think the issue is with Tim for sending it and Bob for sharing it, though it's more understandable that Tim wouldn't know as he hasn't set up a key and that's where that info is given out. I like Bennys idea of just giving that notification when you first open you mail however. That to me is a better place to say "hey, anything you send in here may be shared, so don't be a douche and send personal information", as you see it before you send the mail, not just if and when you choose to set up a key. That said, I don't think it's a particularly large problem and like you say, it's their own faults, so it's more of a "nice to have" than a "need to have" thing. yes i guess it would be nice to have, but i still think most will not read the warning and click accept and tick the do not show again box.
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5111	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:52:07 - [206] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: yes i guess it would be nice to have, but i still think most will not read the warning and click accept and tick the do not show again box. That's fine, if you did that you'd have absolutely no excuse, just like if you jump into lowsec when you're not ready and ignore the warning. I'd definitely be firmly on the "against" side if the suggestion was a mechanics change to limit it, but more info is fine. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Warp to Cyno. 4281	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:53:46 - [207] - Quote xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: yes i guess it would be nice to have, but i still think most will not read the warning and click accept and tick the do not show again box. at that point i don't give a damn, there's no way this happens commonly enough or severely enough to justify modifying the api function
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9796	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:54:37 - [208] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Upon seeing Lucas Kell agree with me I have discovered that i am wrong (must be if Lucas agrees) and surrender peacefully to Benny Ohu in exchange for protect from commander Save'Em Kell!!! It's OK, I've been won over by his simple idea for a solution now, so you can go back to hating. lol, 'simple solution to something that isn't a problem in the least. This is why EVE online now has pop ups for every single event Pop ups if you want to destroy a rig, or jettison a can, or jump in to low sec, or even try to undock with a 'mission critical item' not being in your cargo hold (that last one is particularly egregious , NOTHING teaches you to check your cargo like forgetting the mission item you came for and having to back track 6 jumps to get it, now new mission runners don't have to even do that much...). I'll ask again, why is the idea of expecting (mostly) grown folks to look after their own interests like sunshine on a vampire to some people? EVE used to treat us like adults now it's "prophylactic pop ups and safeties online". I'm surprised I don't get a "don't forget to flush" pop up in the bathroom nowadays.
xxxTRUSTxxx Galactic Rangers 208	Posted - 2015.02.16 15:54:59 - [209] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: xxxTRUSTxxx wrote: yes i guess it would be nice to have, but i still think most will not read the warning and click accept and tick the do not show again box. That's fine, if you did that you'd have absolutely no excuse, just like if you jump into lowsec when you're not ready and ignore the warning. I'd definitely be firmly on the "against" side if the suggestion was a mechanics change to limit it, but more info is fine. agreed
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5111	Posted - 2015.02.16 16:01:42 - [210] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: lol, 'simple solution to something that isn't a problem in the least. It's not really a problem, I'd agree, but more info doesn't hurt. It would only show up once too, so meh. Jenn aSide wrote: This is why EVE online now has pop ups for every single event Pop ups if you want to destroy a rig, or jettison a can, or jump in to low sec, or even try to undock with a 'mission critical item' not being in your cargo hold (that last one is particularly egregious , NOTHING teaches you to check your cargo like forgetting the mission item you came for and having to back track 6 jumps to get it, now new mission runners don't have to even do that much...). But that's how EVE works. Pretty much everything is dont by them spitting scraps of info at you and saying "That's how it works, figure out how to use it". It's not like other games where they walk you through basically everything you'll ever do again in the game forever step by step. I have no problem with popups telling you what stuff does and how stuff works. Jenn aSide wrote: I'll ask again, why is the idea of expecting (mostly) grown folks to look after their own interests like sunshine on a vampire to some people? EVE used to treat us like adults now it's "prophylactic pop ups and safeties online". I'm surprised I don't get a "don't forget to flush" pop up in the bathroom nowadays. It's still asking them to look after themselves, it's just moving the information from when you set up the API key to when you send the mail, since it's reasonable to suggest that players who send mails with personal info won't have read the API key page. It's not even adding the info, it really is just copying a snippet of it from the page to the game. I certainly wouldn't want it to be some kind of safety, like an anti-personal-info filter or a change to the API system. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9796	Posted - 2015.02.16 16:07:47 - [211] - Quote Lucas Kell wrote: But that's how EVE works. Pretty much everything is dont by them spitting scraps of info at you and saying "That's how it works, figure out how to use it". It's not like other games where they walk you through basically everything you'll ever do again in the game forever step by step. I have no problem with popups telling you what stuff does and how stuff works. You are aware that missions basically tell you how to run themselves now right.. I simply have no sympathy for people who can't burn 1 brain cell in their own defense, whiich is why I asked a stupid question about EVemail 8 years ago instead of just assuming that everything will be ok because "someone is supposed to help me take care of myself".
Lucas Kell Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance 5111	Posted - 2015.02.16 16:18:23 - [212] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: You are aware that missions basically tell you how to run themselves now right.. It's not really much different from how it use to be, other than now you have that on your screen rather than having to open up a window. Jenn aSide wrote: I simply have no sympathy for people who can't burn 1 brain cell in their own defense, whiich is why I asked a stupid question about EVemail 8 years ago instead of just assuming that everything will be ok because "someone is supposed to help me take care of myself". Neither do I, but I don't think it's unreasonable to present people with relevant information early on. You could say the entire tutorial and career system is pointelss too. It wasn't there when I joined, I just had to fly into space and figure out what was what. But that system is very beneficial, as it can teach people the basics so they'll adapt to the game better. Admittedly it needs some work on explaining PvP and piracy, but it gives people a starting point. As I said before, I'm always happy for more info. If people choose to ignore it, that's their problem, but it should be there for those who want to take the time to read it and try to improve. This particular instance is almost nothing, it's barely a problem at all, but if a viable solution is "give them a quick message to read", I'm all for it. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
Vyl Vit 1057	Posted - 2015.02.16 18:31:34 - [213] - Quote Just putting stuff "on the internet"? No such animal. Case in point - secure transactions. A secure transaction is done using the internet, but can't be legally or otherwise considered to be broadcasting your credit card information. There is a right of expectation that the one receiving the information - all verifications of legitimacy being met - will remain confidential. Violation of this NOW opens the recipient to legal ramifications. This "putting things on the internet" statement is an -ism that can now take its place beside "the boogyman." It is understood by all legitimate legal authority there are many types of information which receive various considerations in law, and law expects from professionals specific sorts of treatment for this. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in the U.S. is keen on paying visits to people who would challenge this, and U.S. federal sentencing has no plea bargaining for sentence reductions. Certain transactions have always been circumventable, or open to felonious obstruction. Law enforcement has always seen itself as responsible for making strides in keeping up with new criminal inventions, and even anticipating potential areas of criminal exploitation whenever possible. The internet is no different. It is not viewed as a wide-open, anything goes environment. I'm not familiar with Europe's approach to this through the EU, but I'd be willing to bet all YOUR stuff it's quite similar with Scotland Yard and Interpol. I think Iceland even has police. (Right?) This is CCP's responsibility, with their legal beagles, the Icelandic Legislature and the legal structure within which EVE can be said to operate under statutory obligation. It is neither a matter for speculation by a playerbase, nor the jurisdiction of armchair legal experts. The framework under which this sort of thing is bound by law to function is established. No amount of our getting on our high horses here and declaring what the superior reality must be has any standing. The way things like this are tested, if the powers that be refuse to make their own examination of it, is by filing a legal case and forcing the issue in a court of law; probably civil or tort law, but especially with how internet laws intended to protect minors are being written (these days) quite possibly criminal, as well. I know this won't stop anybody from expounding their mighty pontifications. I just thought I'd MENTION IT. If you don't like how the LAW is written, vote. Vote early, and often! Anyone with any sense has already left town.
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 931	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:06:33 - [214] - Quote Relevant Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 635	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:27:36 - [215] - Quote Vyl Vit wrote: Just putting stuff "on the internet"? No such animal. Case in point - secure transactions. A secure transaction is done using the internet, but can't be legally or otherwise considered to be broadcasting your credit card information. There is a right of expectation that the one receiving the information - all verifications of legitimacy being met - will keep the data confidential. Violation of this NOW opens the recipient to legal ramifications. This "putting things on the internet" statement is an -ism that can now take its place beside "the boogyman." It is understood by all legitimate legal authority there are many types of information which receive various considerations in law, and law expects from professionals specific sorts of treatment for this. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in the U.S. is keen on paying visits to people who would challenge this, and U.S. federal sentencing has no plea bargaining for sentence reductions. Certain transactions have always been circumventable, or open to felonious obstruction. From the time someone could dip a quill into a bottle of ink, forgery was possible, for instance. Law enforcement has always seen itself as responsible for making strides in keeping up with new criminal inventions, and even anticipating potential areas of criminal exploitation whenever possible. The internet is no different. It is not viewed as a wide-open, anything goes environment. I'm not familiar with Europe's approach to this through the EU, but I'd be willing to bet (all YOUR stuff) it's quite similar with Scotland Yard and Interpol. I think Iceland even has police. (Right?) This is CCP's responsibility, with their legal beagles, the Icelandic Legislature and the legal structure within which EVE can be said to operate under statutory obligation. It is neither a matter for speculation by a playerbase, nor the jurisdiction of armchair legal experts. The framework under which this sort of thing is bound by law to function is established. No amount of our getting on our high horses here and declaring what the superior reality must be has any standing. The way things like this are tested, if the powers that be refuse to make their own examination of it, is by filing a legal case and forcing the issue in a court of law; probably civil or tort law, but especially with how internet laws intended to protect minors are being written (these days) quite possibly criminal, as well. I know this won't stop anybody from expounding their mighty pontifications. I just thought I'd MENTION IT. If you don't like how the LAW is written, vote. Vote early, and often! You appear to be forgetting that Eve characters are fictional in the sense that they don't exist outside of the Eve universe or it's associated media. If we were talking about an actual real life privacy breach then you'd have a point, but we're not, we're talking about fictional characters in a fictional universe where the only physicalities those characters have is as database entries and as avatars. If somebody is daft enough to give out information, that may be used in real life, to others within the Eve universe then that's their lookout. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 3715	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:34:39 - [216] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: Relevant +1, re: that comic, I'm half nihilist, half burrito. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Cara Forelli Green Skull LLC 932	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:36:42 - [217] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Relevant +1, re: that comic, I'm half nihilist, half burrito. Me too! Adventures New player with questions? Join my public channel in game: *House Forelli* Titan's Lament
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 635	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:37:34 - [218] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Relevant +1, re: that comic, I'm half nihilist, half burrito. Is a burrito like a kebab, only edible when you're mashed? ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Paranoid Loyd 3885	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:39:11 - [219] - Quote Cara Forelli wrote: Relevant Now I want a burrito and I don't have one. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
Orlacc 790	Posted - 2015.02.16 19:42:06 - [220] - Quote Vyl Vit wrote: Just putting stuff "on the internet"? No such animal. Case in point - secure transactions. A secure transaction is done using the internet, but can't be legally or otherwise considered to be broadcasting your credit card information. There is a right of expectation that the one receiving the information - all verifications of legitimacy being met - will keep the data confidential. Violation of this NOW opens the recipient to legal ramifications. This "putting things on the internet" statement is an -ism that can now take its place beside "the boogyman." It is understood by all legitimate legal authority there are many types of information which receive various considerations in law, and law expects from professionals specific sorts of treatment for this. The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in the U.S. is keen on paying visits to people who would challenge this, and U.S. federal sentencing has no plea bargaining for sentence reductions. Certain transactions have always been circumventable, or open to felonious obstruction. From the time someone could dip a quill into a bottle of ink, forgery was possible, for instance. Law enforcement has always seen itself as responsible for making strides in keeping up with new criminal inventions, and even anticipating potential areas of criminal exploitation whenever possible. The internet is no different. It is not viewed as a wide-open, anything goes environment. I'm not familiar with Europe's approach to this through the EU, but I'd be willing to bet (all YOUR stuff) it's quite similar with Scotland Yard and Interpol. I think Iceland even has police. (Right?) This is CCP's responsibility, with their legal beagles, the Icelandic Legislature and the legal structure within which EVE can be said to operate under statutory obligation. It is neither a matter for speculation by a playerbase, nor the jurisdiction of armchair legal experts. The framework under which this sort of thing is bound by law to function is established. No amount of our getting on our high horses here and declaring what the superior reality must be has any standing. The way things like this are tested, if the powers that be refuse to make their own examination of it, is by filing a legal case and forcing the issue in a court of law; probably civil or tort law, but especially with how internet laws intended to protect minors are being written (these days) quite possibly criminal, as well. I know this won't stop anybody from expounding their mighty pontifications. I just thought I'd MENTION IT. If you don't like how the LAW is written, vote. Vote early, and often! As I mentioned earlier, my armchair friend, read the EULA. You own nothing in the game. Just like the states where emails sent through a company's system using a company address are owned by the company, not you. Common sense folks, common sense. "Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Eugene Kerner TunDraGon Cynosural Field Theory. 1522	Posted - 2015.02.16 20:33:01 - [221] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. omg, what are you? 4? TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] " -á CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 105	Posted - 2015.02.16 20:36:31 - [222] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Relevant +1, re: that comic, I'm half nihilist, half burrito. I'm more of an exhibitionist Crypto Nut. I'll heavily encrypt a text file containing potential dog names, label it Login Passwords, and then leave it on a random file sharing service, just because it makes me feel warm inside to think of someone trying to crack it open. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
rofflesausage State War Academy Caldari State 198	Posted - 2015.02.16 21:29:28 - [223] - Quote This a 11/10 thread. 12 pages, a dev response and still growing. I know this is Eve GD, but come on....
Paranoid Loyd 3889	Posted - 2015.02.16 21:31:40 - [224] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Relevant Now I want a burrito and I don't have one. Update: I went to lunch and got a burrito, it was delicious. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!!!
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 3716	Posted - 2015.02.16 21:34:10 - [225] - Quote Concord Guy's Cousin wrote: Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Cara Forelli wrote: Relevant +1, re: that comic, I'm half nihilist, half burrito. Is a burrito like a kebab, only edible when you're mashed? Hey don't ask me, I'm Italian. ... Sh*t! I just gave out personal information! On GD! Quick! Everybody clear their browser cache, while I edit out this post...! And Chribba, your Veldsparness, yes, I'm looking at you: turn off EVE Search, save my privacy! Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 14007	Posted - 2015.02.16 21:55:11 - [226] - Quote What you do in life, echoes in eternity. -- Thanks Google! > So how do YOU want to be remembered? /c GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Twitter @Chribba

Jeaile OCBF 13	Posted - 2015.02.17 03:41:40 - [227] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: Elenahina wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a ~~video game software property you never personally 'own'~~ on any computer system that you do not have direct physical control of (and if it's connected to the Internet, all bets are off). No offense, Jenna, but I adjusted your post to more closely match reality. So you don't have an 'expectation of privacy' of the computer systems operated by your bank, or your employer, or your doctor? Strange world you live in. Well given you admit you don't read legal speak, which for you is likely to be anything with more than 2 syllables, you shouldn't either. even if whatever country you reside in has decent privacy laws, they all become moot when you give them permission to distribute to "third parties" (ie marketing companies and anyone else they can get a dollar from) by not explicitly denying them permission, in writing. Your laziness and decision, yes that's right, in not reading something presented to you, you are making a decision, are what lead to the issues. Stop blaming everyone else for the fact that you are lazy, everyone celebrates the learning cliff in eve, yet because you were lazy it's CCP's fault
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 637	Posted - 2015.02.17 04:11:28 - [228] - Quote For those among us that have given out a full API without actually realising what it reveals give APIJackknife a full API key and take a look; delete the key when you're done. I've given my full API to a corp once, I made damn sure that Evemail was completely empty before I did so, just as I did when I sold a character. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
Glathull Warlock Assassins 940	Posted - 2015.02.17 04:30:14 - [229] - Quote I don't really understand how this can be a real question or discussion. Think about this for a moment: what happens in real life when you send someone an email? That person is, wait for it . . ., able to read your email. And if someone gains access to their credentials, then that someone can read the email you sent to that person. It's true. There's even an API of sorts. If I have someone's email address and password, I can download their email in whatever format I want! The shock! Do we really need an explanation telling you that if you send a message to someone in the game that, just like in real life, WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! THE RECIPIENT WILL BE ABLE TO READ THIS MESSAGE!! Honestly, people. You're complaining about the fact that EvEMail actually works exactly the way it is supposed to work. I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon Shut up, Anslo. --everyone
Sir Substance GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 682	Posted - 2015.02.17 07:20:01 - [230] - Quote Glathull wrote: It's true. There's even an API of sorts. If I have someone's email address and password, I can download their email in whatever format I want! The shock! That's not an API, not even of sorts. API's are designed for digestion by software, not people. Having a login screen is a waste of good clockcycles that's only needed if you're a human who doesn't know the login protocol. Don't be intellectually dishonest. The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Jimmy Farrere University of Caille Gallente Federation 18	Posted - 2015.02.17 07:44:16 - [231] - Quote Jeaile wrote: Jimmy Farrere wrote: Elenahina wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: That's right. There is not such thing as an 'expectation of privacy' in a ~~video game software property you never personally 'own'~~ on any computer system that you do not have direct physical control of (and if it's connected to the Internet, all bets are off). No offense, Jenna, but I adjusted your post to more closely match reality. So you don't have an 'expectation of privacy' of the computer systems operated by your bank, or your employer, or your doctor? Strange world you live in. Well given you admit you don't read legal speak, which for you is likely to be anything with more than 2 syllables, you shouldn't either. even if whatever country you reside in has decent privacy laws, they all become moot when you give them permission to distribute to "third parties" (ie marketing companies and anyone else they can get a dollar from) by not explicitly denying them permission, in writing. Your laziness and decision, yes that's right, in not reading something presented to you, you are making a decision, are what lead to the issues. Stop blaming everyone else for the fact that you are lazy, everyone celebrates the learning cliff in eve, yet because you were lazy it's CCP's fault Yes, I've hit the bingo! Was waiting for some mouth-breathing, self-professed intellectual to come in and tell us that we need gross insecurities in Eve's mail system because it's 'a hard game' and we shouldn't 'hand-hold people' by telling them how insecure it is up front.
Gregor Parud Ordo Ardish 1127	Posted - 2015.02.17 08:38:28 - [232] - Quote Jimmy Farrere wrote: Yes, I've hit the bingo! Was waiting for some mouth-breathing, self-professed intellectual to come in and tell us that we need gross insecurities in Eve's mail system because it's 'a hard game' and we shouldn't 'hand-hold people' by telling them how insecure it is up front. You understood that wrong. He didn't say "this is EVE lol, you don't get to have secure mail". What he's saying is "people who didn't use their brain cells to figure out that some things just aren't smart to do are going to have a difficult time in EVE". Not getting that is kinda telling, I guess.
Nerath Naaris Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy 953	Posted - 2015.02.17 10:50:40 - [233] - Quote If you habe problems concerning your privacy on the Internet now, I suggest you call back some 5, 10 years from today. Boy, I will have some bad news for you then! Forum-unbanned since 2011.10.20.
Elenahina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 109	Posted - 2015.02.17 14:21:32 - [234] - Quote Iain Cariaba's Signature wrote: EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
Concord Guy's Cousin State War Academy Caldari State 641	Posted - 2015.02.17 15:24:46 - [235] - Quote Elenahina wrote: Iain Cariaba's Signature wrote: EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. Albert Einstein wrote: Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe Frederick S. Perls wrote: But what is much more widespread than the actual stupidity is the playing stupid, turning off your ear, not listening, not seeing. All three are equally relevant in Eve, and life in general. ISD LackOfFaith ~ "Your Catalyst was a hamster, and your Retriever smelt of elderberries" NPC Forum Alt, because reasons.
KrakizBad Section 8. Fatal Ascension 1418	Posted - 2015.02.17 16:03:09 - [236] - Quote Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: Malcanis wrote: Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote: I just read that apparently full API access allows corporations to read the EVE-mail of potential new recruits. I wonder if that includes any EVE-mails sent to that person, or being quoted by that person. Yep. Any evemail. That's interesting, as nobody CCP warned me that full APIs would compromise my privacy if I as much as sent a evemail to someone and that someone intended to join a player corporation and provided a full API. Let's say that for some reason, I trust someone and evemail him some personal data, and that someone joins a corporation unaware of what a full API does mean to any personal data being shared through CCP's services... I really wonder now whether CCP warns of that, somewhere. I don't know what else you thought full API meant? TBH this is pretty common knowledge, and given that GMs can also read your evemails, I can't think why anyone would ever put anything personal into one. Is a "pretty common knowledge" which I ignored until just 20 minutes ago, after playing the game for most of 6 years and never needing to give a full API to anyone. Now, I don't know whether I ever said anything personal on evemail, and also don't know if that is being warned anywhere by CCP. But I am upset that such a delicate matter is just left to be learned by chance. I never wrote evemail thinking that every last recruiter in EVE could read them. Nobody cares about your sexting. www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6543	Posted - 2015.02.17 17:18:12 - [237] - Quote [quote=Chribba]What you do in life, echoes in eternity. -- Thanks Google! > So how do YOU want to be remembered? /quote] As a series of jabber logs. ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears. Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
Glathull Warlock Assassins 940	Posted - 2015.02.17 20:11:37 - [238] - Quote Sir Substance wrote: Glathull wrote: It's true. There's even an API of sorts. If I have someone's email address and password, I can download their email in whatever format I want! The shock! That's not an API, not even of sorts. API's are designed for digestion by software, not people. Having a login screen is a waste of good clockcycles that's only needed if you're a human who doesn't know the login protocol. Don't be intellectually dishonest. What do you think POP and IMAP are? They are protocols for third party software to access your mailboxes. I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon Shut up, Anslo. --everyone

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