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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
6
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Posted - 2015.02.14 12:38:54 -
[1] - Quote
Hi there.
I've tried to search for a LvL 4 Paladin thread, but I couldn't find one. Skipped through the first 20-30 pages of this forum and not finding anything and the search doesn't work for whatever reasons.
So, I'm thinking of moving my mission-running HQ into Amarr-space and was thinking of swaping my ship for a Paladin, because lazors
I've fiddled around in EFT for starters and fitting the Paladin is easy enough for either Mega Pulses or Tachyons.
The one thing I'm uncertain about is the ewar from Sanshas or Bloodraiders and therefore I'm not sure about what solution would be better suited against those.
With Pulses I can get closer and I'm better suited against trackingdisruption, but at 40km I think I'm running into the nos/neutralizers, and with Multifrequency you're only hitting upto 30km with the Mega Pulses. With the Tachyons I can stay allways out to a minimum of 60km (Multifrequency) but I don't know how much my tracking suffers, especially against frigs and cruisers approching me.
Another thing is, I don't really want to run from the NPCs keeping them at 60+ km if possible.
So what do you use on your Paladin... Pulses or Beams, and how does it work for you against Sansha and Bloods? |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
992
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 12:44:50 -
[2] - Quote
pulse cause bastion |
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
6
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Posted - 2015.02.14 13:01:16 -
[3] - Quote
The Bastion-module doen't make you immune to NOS/neuts tho. That's exactly the reason why I'm not sure about the Pulses. |
Gustav Mannfred
Summer of Mumuit
105
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 13:18:21 -
[4] - Quote
It depends on the mission, there are missions, where tachyons are better, like the blokade and missions, where pulses are better, like Worlds collide
i'm REALY miss the old stuff.-á
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=24183
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DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators Illuminantur Dominium Sicarioum
60
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Posted - 2015.02.14 13:21:28 -
[5] - Quote
Grytok wrote:The Bastion-module doen't make you immune to NOS/neuts tho. That's exactly the reason why I'm not sure about the Pulses.
T2 Pulses, period.
bastion mids: MJD , 2 TC with tracking speed, MWD (or if you are good at vector math, 3 TC and no MWD for jumping to accel gates)
ammo: scorch, you won't need anything else, ever.
missions go like this:
multi-room with close spawns to warp in: mjd out, bastion up, nuke everything, mjd to next gate. Repeat until no more rooms multi-room with far spawns: bastion up, nuke, do fancy math/mwd next gate single room: bastion up, nuke all, warp out.
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Soldier Forrester
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
11
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Posted - 2015.02.14 13:32:27 -
[6] - Quote
When I was flying a Paladin I wanted to be as efficient as possible, so I carried both Gun sets with me and refitted on a depo. I prefer Beams (+1k DPS @ +70km) I just refitted in missions with very close Spawns like Damsel in Distress where I needed more tracking.
This also gave me the ability to run a max gank fit with only one armor repair to tank. Fitted tank/MJD/mwd/web when it was needed. |
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
6
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Posted - 2015.02.14 13:42:35 -
[7] - Quote
Thanks so far, I'll try both setups I guess, but I'm not to keen on using a MJD, but rather go only with a MWD. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
992
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 13:53:21 -
[8] - Quote
bastion increases your scorch range to well over 60km, well far out of range of npc nos
If you're worried about neuting as well, you shouldn't really be. Paladins can solo c5 wormhole sites with far more neut pressure than any high sec mission.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8897
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Posted - 2015.02.14 14:29:34 -
[9] - Quote
its got a massive cargo hold.
carry a mobile depo and both sets of guns and crystals, switch as and when you see fit.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
6
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Posted - 2015.02.14 15:05:55 -
[10] - Quote
This massive cargohold is needed for looting the field. Otherwise I wouldn't even look for a Marauder other than it's big cargohold. I could simply a Rattlesnake or Ishtar etc, as they do just fine.
I don't want to come back for salvage and loot a second time tho, but do it all in one wash. I also don't want to think about refitting hardeners, weapons or whatever, but a ship that can do it all with a single setup.
Yes I'm lazy. |
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
423
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Posted - 2015.02.14 15:50:32 -
[11] - Quote
Grytok wrote:The Bastion-module doen't make you immune to NOS/neuts tho. That's exactly the reason why I'm not sure about the Pulses.
Your fears are not entirely unfounded, but consider this much; the Paladin has some ridiculous cap stats. Most L4's against blood raiders with capacitor warfare tend to boil down to having plenty of time to kill the neuting ships (assuming you know how to id the right rats) long before they are even in range to use neuts anyways, so on top of having a really sturdy cap pool, you rarely see it under any pressure.
As far as picking pulses or tachs, just pick one that sounds like you honestly. The Paladin walked away from the Rubicon changes with some nice numbers. While it lost the web bonus it use to have, it got an even stronger and more resilient cap pool and nice projection buff which works incredibly well for either weapon system. Pulses may still need a prop mod to be complete, but with Scorch it can reach out quite a ways, and Tachs can stretch far and wide with Imperial Navy Multi-Frequency, pretty much removing any need to sacrific firepower for range.
In a Paladin, range is going to be one of your main strong points, being able to hit consistently well in excess of other comparable laser boats. It's literally the Stormcrow of Eve: Online's Marauders -- Highly flexible, great reach, and is one of the best laser vomit platforms around. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8904
|
Posted - 2015.02.14 16:56:04 -
[12] - Quote
Grytok wrote:This massive cargohold is needed for looting the field. Otherwise I wouldn't even look for a Marauder other than it's big cargohold. I could simply a Rattlesnake or Ishtar etc, as they do just fine.
I don't want to come back for salvage and loot a second time tho, but do it all in one wash. I also don't want to think about refitting hardeners, weapons or whatever, but a ship that can do it all with a single setup.
Yes I'm lazy. Dude , the hold is ****ing massive, you can still loot the stuff worth taking and have an entire other fit in there.
I have a paladin trust me on this, you don't need to carry much in the way of ammo, seriously **** all, even a bunch of navy cap 800's Will leave you room for anything worth taking.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Orlacc
785
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Posted - 2015.02.14 18:57:48 -
[13] - Quote
Grytok wrote:This massive cargohold is needed for looting the field. Otherwise I wouldn't even look for a Marauder other than it's big cargohold. I could simply a Rattlesnake or Ishtar etc, as they do just fine.
I don't want to come back for salvage and loot a second time tho, but do it all in one wash. I also don't want to think about refitting hardeners, weapons or whatever, but a ship that can do it all with a single setup.
Yes I'm lazy.
Mobile depot not very big. That is the most efficient way to go.
"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
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chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
188
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Posted - 2015.02.14 21:24:20 -
[14] - Quote
Pulse + use conflag as often as you can. Fit a MWD or a MWD + MJD to help ensure proper range.
There really isn't a good reason to take beams. You'll have higher average dps with pulse and will be in tractor range of most of your wrecks. It's a win-win |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
963
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 05:49:36 -
[15] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:this is your answer Both its got a massive cargo hold.
carry a mobile depo, switch as and when you see fit.
the only real answer. tachs out damage scorch at every range, ignoring tracking, although even with tracking vs NPCs I'd take tachs. and inside 30km or so Conflag is pretty awesome. Although if I know I'm going to be inside 30km for most of the mission I'll just use my kronos.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8925
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 09:44:26 -
[16] - Quote
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:this is your answer Both its got a massive cargo hold.
carry a mobile depo, switch as and when you see fit. the only real answer. tachs out damage scorch at every range, ignoring tracking, although even with tracking vs NPCs I'd take tachs. and inside 30km or so Conflag is pretty awesome. Although if I know I'm going to be inside 30km for most of the mission I'll just use my kronos. I'm only gal bs 5 away from one of those I just have way too much other useful stuff to train, ill get around to it eventually.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Mobbel Ernaga
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2015.02.15 16:56:52 -
[17] - Quote
Mhhhh...Pulse....and if they come to close use smartbombs....
tbh: If you run missions you're either not looking for a challenge (like most other mission runners including me) or you're totally wrong. Just put some Tachs, Bastion and a MJD on, learn to jump which may take a few weeks then simply kill the stuff from range while watching videos. If you disconnect while bastion is running you're most likely dead but that's the only thing you have to worry about. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8933
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 18:41:13 -
[18] - Quote
Mobbel Ernaga wrote: use smartbombs....
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Atomeon
The Scope Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2015.02.15 22:34:19 -
[19] - Quote
Mobbel Ernaga wrote:If you disconnect while bastion is running you're most likely dead but that's the only thing you have to worry about. I thought that has been fixed by now. It tries often to warp out until it does... ( I hope) |
Justin Zaine
179
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 05:06:39 -
[20] - Quote
Pulse.
Cause Scorch and Bastion.
900 dps out to like 70km. Can still kill stuff at 100km.
1300 dps out to like 40km with Conflag.
Mega Pulse II x 4 Bastion Salvager II x 3
Tracking Computer II x 2 100mn MWD Cap Recharger II
Heat Sink x4 LAR II 2 x mission specific hardeners
Wheeeeeee
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
180
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 07:26:57 -
[21] - Quote
if you are looting it you are limited to 48km range of the tractor beams (unless you are waiting for the slow slow MTU) so pulse with conflag will be your golden ticket |
John Ratcliffe
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
287
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 08:46:31 -
[22] - Quote
My Lvl 4 Paladin looks like this - 1274.6 DPS with less than perfect skills:
[Paladin, HMS Valiant - PVE] Large Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Large Micro Jump Drive
Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Bastion Module I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II Large Nanobot Accelerator II
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
Conflagration L x4 Scorch L x4 Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x4 Optimal Range Script x3 Tracking Speed Script x3
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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Ravasta Helugo
Republic University Minmatar Republic
298
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 21:10:46 -
[23] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote: Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II Large Nanobot Accelerator II
Those tanking Rigs are making me sad.
You should rip them out and replace them with a Rate of Fire and Warp Speed/Agility/AnythingButTankingOrCap. Watch your mission times become shorter, your Isk/Hour become bigger and, and your invulnerability to level IV rats remain unchanged. |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1004
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 21:15:42 -
[24] - Quote
and your ability to get ganked exponentially higher
always overtank your marauders
always. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8974
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 22:20:15 -
[25] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:and your ability to get ganked exponentially higher
always overtank your marauders
always. t2 suitcase + emperial navy enam (or two) gets silly numbers in bastion , silly i tell ye!
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Justin Zaine
182
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 23:01:17 -
[26] - Quote
If someone's fleet is committed to ganking you, no amount of nano pumps or nanobot accelerators will save you. They only have 11k armor and 10k structure to burn through assuming you're not buffer fit and they'll do it in seconds, long before you can react, activate your modules and finish a single cycle of reps.
What will save you, if anything, is not flying a loot pinata and fitting a DCU.
If you overtank, do it for the rats or because you wan't to be extra careful with your billion isk ship. Don't use gankers as the excuse for doing so
Wheeeeeee
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8974
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 23:45:47 -
[27] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:If someone's fleet is committed to ganking you, no amount of nano pumps or nanobot accelerators will save you. They only have 11k armor and 10k structure to burn through assuming you're not buffer fit and they'll do it in seconds, long before you can react, activate your modules and finish a single cycle of reps. What will save you, if anything, is not flying a loot pinata and fitting a DCU. If you overtank, do it for the rats or because you wan't to be extra careful with your billion isk ship. Don't use gankers as the excuse for doing so true, however you dont need to out tank the gankers
just the guy in the next mission pocket
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
|
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1005
|
Posted - 2015.02.16 23:56:48 -
[28] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:If someone's fleet is committed to ganking you, no amount of nano pumps or nanobot accelerators will save you. They only have 11k armor and 10k structure to burn through assuming you're not buffer fit and they'll do it in seconds, long before you can react, activate your modules and finish a single cycle of reps. What will save you, if anything, is not flying a loot pinata and fitting a DCU. If you overtank, do it for the rats or because you wan't to be extra careful with your billion isk ship. Don't use gankers as the excuse for doing so
making it not worth the gank is the point with overtanking, not whether or not it will stop them. |
Justin Zaine
183
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 01:21:25 -
[29] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:making it not worth the gank is the point with overtanking, not whether or not it will stop them.
I don't disagree. All i'm saying is that if you plan to do this by using mods or rigs that increase your rep speed/amount, you're doing it wrong. You want buffer or high resists to avoid a gank, not large rep cycles. In the case of the Paladin, increasing your resists is the best way to go because even if you can rep 5000 armor in a 10s cycle using repair rigs, the gank is over before you get to make use of those reps.
At least by having 90% + resists you'll be able to take much more punishment than you otherwise could.
Nano pumps or accelerators will not help you much when someone needs less than 10 seconds to destroy your ship.
Sorry for derailing the thread.
Wheeeeeee
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
964
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 01:57:54 -
[30] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:making it not worth the gank is the point with overtanking, not whether or not it will stop them.
I agree, I'm just not sure that armor rep rigs are the right way to do that. I suppose if you see them coming and overload the rep, best case you get 2 cycles in. Ah well, I'll just keep on keeping my value low and EHP high.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1128
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 09:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tachs allow for Gleam which is quite awesome short range. Also, as others stated earlier, Tachs outperform Scorch and the optimal of 70km (with MF) combined with a 1 min MJD makes it pretty much ideal to toy around shooting stuff with very low transversal.
But, as also stated, swap to pulses for specific missions where it just makes sense to do so. I would have Tachs as the default fit though. Here's a fitting idea for it.
[Paladin, New Setup 1] Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Heat Sink II
100MN Afterburner II Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I [empty high slot] Small Tractor Beam I Bastion Module I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I Large Energy Burst Aerator II
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Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8984
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 11:19:41 -
[32] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Tachs allow for Gleam which is quite awesome short range. Also, as others stated earlier, Tachs outperform Scorch and the optimal of 70km (with MF) combined with a 1 min MJD makes it pretty much ideal to toy around shooting stuff with very low transversal.
But, as also stated, swap to pulses for specific missions where it just makes sense to do so. I would have Tachs as the default fit though. Here's a fitting idea for it.
[Paladin, New Setup 1] Core C-Type Large Armor Repairer Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Heat Sink II
100MN Afterburner II Large Micro Jump Drive Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I [empty high slot] Small Tractor Beam I Bastion Module I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I Large Energy Burst Aerator II
Fairly close to mine actually, i have two medium neuts in the highs though.
and i couldnt be arsed with tracking computers (i have them in the cargo) i feel much better with a fednavy web and a longpoint, though my paladin has been in lowsec for a while now so it makes sense to keep them there
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Ruvin
178
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Posted - 2015.02.17 11:44:59 -
[33] - Quote
Ill probably get flamed but here it goes :
I wanted some standing for clones , decided to go for SOE as arc unlocked lvl 4 for me (also a profit could be made) I couldnGÇÖt decide between nightmare or paladin , decided to go for paladin (both look awesome but paladin has easier time fitting and is more forgivable) I readed everything I could find about paladin pve fits from last 2 years both on forums/reddit/eve uni/random blogs .
First fits were overtanked (2 adaptive 1 dmg ctrl 1 repper 3 sinks) Went for 2 adaptive 1 reper , 4 sinks . (if the 5 sink would be any good I prob could drop 1 adaptive tho not worth it) Ok here it starts to get GÇ£oddGÇ¥ Medium slots 2 tracker comps (thatGÇÖs common to every fit almost I saw) usually third slot is random a cap recharger , a cap booster (no clue what for) Anyway fourth slot goes to mwd or mjd GǪ. I went for mjd , great thing , apart those times when you need to burn to gates or somewhere (loot can be achieved by tractor unit) but still sometimes it gathers everything apart that GÇ£transportGÇ¥ you need . So I kept switching them , in the end I went for GÇ£BOTHGÇ¥ GǪ. Well it worked ehm great ? I land I jump , I kill stuff (frigs first) , I jump back and use gates . MWD for times when I need to fly to gates . 2 tracking comps and 100km distance is more then enough to shoot any frigate . Cap with everything on apart (mwd/mjd) is enough for 11 or 12 minutes (PERMA repped) So I just left it like that . (just give it a try rlly makes life easier)
Now on weapon part : I went for pulses as it was more advised , but I used to jump shoot with scorch , and kill everything before it went under 50km , last 1 2 ships I could switch to conflag , but that happened rarely GǪ Very . I end up using for 90% scorch ammo , conflag was used rarely , and also between 40-50 km range with 2 tracking comps with distance scripts . Then I thought wtf I kill stuff in 60-100km range . Why im using pulse weapons GǪ. So switched to tachyons , exactly same strategy tho it goes faster , and easier GǪ I hit with navy multi for same range as scorch for greater dmg . (Gleam seems not worth it , Aurora GǪ. it has 160-180 range afaik with TRACKING scripts , need to check aurora range with optimal range , dps sucks 550 I think , but it could shoot stuff from far away :D ) Oh and those are ranges without bastion on ! And that was while doing missions for SOE which had all rats GǣbadGǥ for me , as paladin is best vs amarr ones .
So thatGÇÖs my GÇ£newb mission runner GÇ£ experience .
TLDR mjd+mwd BOTH work great , Tachyons are better imho . No need to brawl vs small ships when you can snipe them for full dmg from distance .
EDIT : Gregor Parud , I agree with him , btw why an AB instead of MWD (I usually use it to get from point A to point B so just wondering why such choice) Also his fit is almost identical to mine .
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1145
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Posted - 2015.02.17 16:55:52 -
[34] - Quote
Ruvin wrote:EDIT : Gregor Parud , I agree with him , btw why an AB instead of MWD (I usually use it to get from point A to point B so just wondering why such choice) Also his fit is almost identical to mine .
Fitting issues, cap issues. This could be solved by removing the heavy nos but It's nice to have when you want to tank and spank shorter range stuff just because it's the better option at that moment. It's a choice, dropping it and fully relying on MJD for range (tank) and then swap to MWD also works.
Switching to gleam and tracking scripts with bastion and a nos on a shorter range target works just fine assuming, again, it's a useful tactic at that moment. |
Justin Zaine
189
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 21:10:34 -
[35] - Quote
Inspired by this thread, I've revisited the beam Pally for lvl 4 missions.
God it's awful.
Maybe it's just me, but I have yet to come across a situation where I would prefer beams over pulse.
Why?
1. Range. The main advantage that beams have over pulse is their ability to hit out to 160km. When do lvl 4 mission rats spawn anywhere near that far away? I've have yet to see it. Most rats spawn within the 30-70 km range and that's perfect for a pulse fit for a few reasons:
a. Tractor Beam range b. With 2 Tracking Computers, Conflag does 1000 dps up to ~40km and scorch does like 800 out to ~100km.
2. Tracking is **** with beams. Anything closer than 20km is difficult to hit even with 2 TC's running with Gleam/INMF. Your DPS might look nice but your application of that dps is baaaad.
3. Downfalls of the traditional Beam fit.
a. If you fit a MJD to your beam pally, my question is why?!?!? On ships like the CNR where you sacrifice tank for gank the MJD is totally cool, but on a ship where you have more than enough tank and dps to run any lvl 4 up close, what practical use is there for a MJD? It slows down your mission time when you jump all over the place and god forbid you ever get a mission where the next gate is ~50km away.
b. So you've got beams and can shoot out to 160km. That's might be cool if you could target that far, but your default targeting range is just over 100km. This means that you need to fit at least one sebo to make use of those long beams, assuming you ever needed to shoot that far, which again, never happens.
c. Sniping = No tractors = No salvaging or looting = ~ 3-10 mil lost per mission (Roughly?) I've never done the math but whenever my hull is full of loot I give it to my hauler alt to run to amarr and sell it off. I'd estimate that this accounts for anywhere between 20-30 mil per 5 missions with the occasional mission dropping something nice (3 pseudoelectron containment fields or a 20 mil implant, for instance.) If you MJD and snipe, you're probably losing out on this income. If you're MJD-ing and sniping and then closing range to go back in and salvage after the fight is over, you're wasting valuable time. The trick is to salvage/loot while you fight within tractor range, and pulse fits excel at this.
d. This may sound like nitpicking, but the way I deal with those missions that have 5-10 frigs spawn all at once amongst a larger group of rats is to split my guns up into 2 groups of 2. Load the appropriate ammo for the range they're at, turn on the TC with either tracking or optimal scripts respectively, and pop them all in quick succession by activating one gun group (2 guns) per frig. This eliminates any overkill and most of the time I one-shot them. With the slower cycle time of beams, it takes longer to do this. Sometimes a few of the frigs close distance and I'm unable to hit them due to the ****** tracking of beams. Not a big deal cause I've got drones, but something I noticed nonetheless.
I'm sure the beam pally has it's niche in belt ratting or running sites or something else that I don't have any experience with, but I fail to see how it outperforms the pulse fit paladin for typical lvl 4 missioning.
Wheeeeeee
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
183
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 21:37:16 -
[36] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:Inspired by this thread, I've revisited the beam Pally for lvl 4 missions.
God it's awful.
Maybe it's just me, but I have yet to come across a situation where I would prefer beams over pulse.
Why?
1. Range. The main advantage that beams have over pulse is their ability to hit out to 160km. When do lvl 4 mission rats spawn anywhere near that far away? I've have yet to see it. Most rats spawn within the 30-70 km range and that's perfect for a pulse fit for a few reasons:
a. Tractor Beam range
b. With 2 Tracking Computers, Conflag does 1000 dps up to ~40km and scorch does like 800 out to ~100km.
2. Tracking is **** with beams. Anything closer than 20km is difficult to hit even with 2 TC's running with Gleam/INMF. Your DPS might look nice but your application of that dps is baaaad.
3. Downfalls of the traditional Beam fit.
a. If you fit a MJD to your beam pally, my question is why?!?!? On ships like the CNR where you sacrifice tank for gank the MJD is totally cool, but on a ship where you have more than enough tank and dps to run any lvl 4 up close, what practical use is there for a MJD? It slows down your mission time when you jump all over the place and god forbid you ever get a mission where the next gate is ~50km away.
b. So you've got beams and can shoot out to 160km. That's might be cool if you could target that far, but your default targeting range is just over 100km. This means that you need to fit at least one sebo to make use of those long beams, assuming you ever needed to shoot that far, which again, never happens.
c. Sniping = No tractors = No salvaging or looting = ~ 3-10 mil lost per mission (Roughly?) I've never done the math but whenever my hull is full of loot I give it to my hauler alt to run to amarr and sell it off. I'd estimate that this accounts for anywhere between 20-30 mil per 5 missions with the occasional mission dropping something nice (3 pseudoelectron containment fields or a 20 mil implant, for instance.) If you MJD and snipe, you're probably losing out on this income. If you're MJD-ing and sniping and then closing range to go back in and salvage after the fight is over, you're wasting valuable time. The trick is to salvage/loot while you fight within tractor range, and pulse fits excel at this.
d. This may sound like nitpicking, but the way I deal with those missions that have 5-10 frigs spawn all at once amongst a larger group of rats is to split my guns up into 2 groups of 2. Load the appropriate ammo for the range they're at, turn on the TC with either tracking or optimal scripts respectively, and pop them all in quick succession by activating one gun group (2 guns) per frig. This eliminates any overkill and most of the time I one-shot them. With the slower cycle time of beams, it takes longer to do this. Sometimes a few of the frigs close distance and I'm unable to hit them due to the ****** tracking of beams. Not a big deal cause I've got drones, but something I noticed nonetheless.
I'm sure the beam pally has it's niche in belt ratting or running sites or something else that I don't have any experience with, but I fail to see how it outperforms the pulse fit paladin for typical lvl 4 missioning.
you let things get within 20km is your problem. pulses suffer from lack of dps at the 40km+ range which is where you should kill all mission rats
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Justin Zaine
189
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Posted - 2015.02.17 23:27:36 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:Pulses suffer from lack of dps at the 40km+ range which is where you should kill all mission rats.
Says who?
Should you not kill rats wherever it's most efficient and practical to kill them? If that's at 30 km with pulses then do it. If it's at 70km with beams then do that. My point is that when most missions these days have rats spawning inside of 80km with the occasional spawn going out to ~ 100, there is nothing that beams can do that pulses can't do just as well, if not better. Pulses can still kill efficiently enough at that range, and are miles ahead of beams when it comes to killing things that are less than 30km away, which happens much, much more frequently than spawns at 100+ kms do.
The time you save by using pulse will more than make up for the extra bit of dps and range that you get out of beams.
Wheeeeeee
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
966
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 04:12:13 -
[38] - Quote
~50km is where it matters most to me. and from 45km out tachs win. many mission rats spawn in the 40-70km range. Sure there are some more short range missions, and I think I said earlier that it is good to have both short and long range weapons available. Although for short range missions I tend to fly a blaster kronos. easier to switch ships than switch weapons.
imo the most efficient place to kill rats is right where they spawn. yea I miss out on a bunch of loot but I don't care as I'm not stuck around waiting on tractors and have moved on to another mission. Although with marauder tractors, and a MTU I do get a bunch of loot. Although the value of loot is so meh, I'm really not bothered much either way.
I agree completely MJD to snipe is worthless. however in a few missions a MJD does put you in a better spot, plus with a MJD you can get to any point within 100km in 2 jumps. Worlds collide is a decent example. warp in start shooting, MJD, then MJD again back to the gate and by then you usually have cleared the battleships. in the second pocket just get full aggro, jump out 100km, and blap the frigs, then kill everything else and jump back to the gate. I barely see a time difference between that and just MWDing to the gates. Oh and the CNR is worse for MJDing as it totally messes with missile travel time, unless you are semi-afking with auto-targeting missiles.
As for a sebo, I almost always fit one, marauder scan res sucks. Also helps to blap frigs before they can get any transversial.
oh and I almost never group my guns on any marauder. usually one round is usually sufficient outside of a few elite frigs.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Bienator II
madmen of the skies
3181
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 04:25:31 -
[39] - Quote
i used tachyon beams on it. if i remember correctly it had 60+k range with multifrequency.
how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
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Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
425
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 06:50:02 -
[40] - Quote
Ultimately, what everyone's trying to say here is...just freakin pick one; you won't be making a wrong choice, since both weapon systems are in prime conditions on a Paladin. Try both and see for yourself what you want to throw on there, both have there merits and both have there limits. It may eventually be a mere matter of personal preference.
I personally prefer Tachs over Scor...uh, I mean Pulses. One thing I dissliked about Scorch was that I was having to use it constantly just to be able to get **** done and they were burning out SO MUCH faster than IN Multi. Some may not be bothered in the least bit by that, but I kinda like rolling through the Amarr Epic Arc without having to replace my main set of crystals -- twice over.
At the end of the day, neither are better than the other. Rather, both are excellent weapons but with separately different ups and downs. Fortunately, on the Pally, they both shine well enough that you're gonna see some of their best qualities quickly. |
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Justin Zaine
190
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Posted - 2015.02.18 07:13:41 -
[41] - Quote
Quote:At the end of the day, neither are better than the other
PULSE ARE BETTER YOU NUB!
Nah, just kidding. You're right It's all personal preference. I swear by pulse as my arguments have shown but it really just depends on your play style. If you're flying a Paladin you're already in one of the 4 best mission running ships in the game so it's hard to go wrong regardless of what you do.
Wheeeeeee
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1157
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 08:02:49 -
[42] - Quote
The difference between pulses and beams becomes apparent when you have to shoot targets that aren't weak to EM while they're at range like Guristas. Scorch is mostly EM and will suck hard vs those, beams with MF still won't be amazing but at least it'll be better than Scorch. |
Ruvin
178
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Posted - 2015.02.18 13:39:34 -
[43] - Quote
ill reply to the post with numbers :
1 range , i didnt went for tachyons cos i wanted to shoot targets at 160km . I went for them because i kill stuff in 45,50 - 80 km Range . (and on this distance tachyons win) I dont salvage , i dont loot , LP per mission are worth way more then salvage . 2 Tracking is bad , but be it beam or pulses i kill stuff way before they get under 20 km (even with Pulse, so its not a issue for me) 3 a. You dont need to snipe , you can brawl everything in l4 in close range , but i find dmg aplication is way better from far , be it a BS or a frigate , an example : you may be muhhamed Ali or Tyson but why you need to punch someone when you can use a pistol )) b. i dont need them to shoot from 160 , but from 50 to 80 with MF . c. i dont salvage , i blitz missions for reward and lp . (as for mjd : i mjd out kill and mjd in , if need while im away i can adjust my distance with mwd to be exactly 100km from acceleration gate while killing frigates with full dps aplication) d. i do the same with tachyons , dont see any difference here , target frigates and one shoot em . while theyre far away .
to put it in another way : Conflag-pulse >>> Tachyon-MF>>>Scorch-Pulse (dmg wise) <40 km 45<--->100 45<--->100
So conflag wins dmg wise , but rats usually spawn in a different range group , so usually its tachyons vs Scorch not conflag . As you personally said you kill stuff , most of it , before it gets close to you . So conflag dps is wasted .
Also about tracking i consider beam tracking at 70km is better then pulse in close range . So considering all variables i found tachyons perform better .
By no means one of those is bad , its just matter of taste i guess .
Opportunities multiply as they are seized.
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
183
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Posted - 2015.02.18 13:43:42 -
[44] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:The difference between pulses and beams becomes apparent when you have to shoot targets that aren't weak to EM while they're at range like Guristas. Scorch is mostly EM and will suck hard vs those, beams with MF still won't be amazing but at least it'll be better than Scorch.
that and at the end of scorch range (95km) tachs will pull 100 more dps with gamma. or 150 dps more at 75km with mf
pulse only out dmg tachs when they are loaded with mf or conflag at 35km range or shorter. |
Justin Zaine
192
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Posted - 2015.02.18 14:35:18 -
[45] - Quote
You guys have a lot of good points regarding beams.
Just curious...What kind of dps are you getting at various beam ranges?
On my setup with 3 Imperial Navy Heat Sinks, I'm getting 1007 dps with gleam
993 dps with Multi with an optimal of 45 (58 with 2 TC's running.)
910 dps with Gamma with an optimal of 56 (73 with TC's)
827 dps with Xray with an optimal of 68 (88 with TC's)
Don't really need to use anything longer range than that but I have Standard in cargo just in case.
Comparing this to pulse dps off the top of my head...
Conflag is about 1200 dps out to 30km
Multi is about 1000 and is good to about 45km.
I think I was getting at least 750 with scorch, and I'd be using that for anything past the 45km mark. Yeah, I go through a lot of scorch crystals but I don't mind because they're much cheaper than INMF. I still find that lots of things get in close really fast, and that's obviously where conflag shines.
If you're not salvaging then I can see why you'd go with beams.
Wheeeeeee
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1160
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 14:48:20 -
[46] - Quote
How the #$%# are you getting 45km optimal from tachs with MF? Any decent fit hits 70km with it.
Same fits (listed above), just tachs vs pulse. 2 Pulse fits, faction MF and Scorch. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
183
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Posted - 2015.02.18 14:54:27 -
[47] - Quote
I run 3 TC's 4 navy HS no rigs (normally have a tracking rig and either range or more tracking)
I get (first range number is no range scripts 2nd number is all range scripts modify on the fly depending on the npc range) 28-36km gleam with 973dps 57-73km for INMF with 959dps 71-91km for gamma with 879dps
my pulse fit is the same as my beam one numbers without rigs
27-35 conflag 1111 dps 27-35 INMF 996 dps 34-43 IN gamma 913 dps 41-52 IN xray 830 dps 76-97 scorch 794 dps
i find I shoot things at the 40-70km range most of the time and thus use beams
note: No implants at all in those numbers. Bastion on in all of them. |
Justin Zaine
192
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Posted - 2015.02.18 14:55:09 -
[48] - Quote
That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99.
Wheeeeeee
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1160
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 14:59:57 -
[49] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99.
... |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
183
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 15:08:44 -
[50] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99.
do you have no support skills at all? 35km optimal on tachs in the base range with no bonuses skill or ship effecting it. |
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Justin Zaine
192
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Posted - 2015.02.18 15:14:52 -
[51] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Justin Zaine wrote:That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99. do you have no support skills at all? 35km optimal on tachs in the base range with no bonuses skill or ship effecting it.
Lol. I have all relevant gunnery skills to 5 except for large laser specialization, which currently sits at 4.
We are talking about T2 Tachs with Imperial Navy Multifreq loaded, right?
Wheeeeeee
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Justin Zaine
192
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Posted - 2015.02.18 15:24:57 -
[52] - Quote
****
Multi optimal with my skills is 56 without TC's. 69km with TC's.
Sorry, don't know what I was looking at earlier.
Wheeeeeee
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
183
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 15:25:17 -
[53] - Quote
Justin Zaine wrote:Lady Rift wrote:Justin Zaine wrote:That's just optimal. Falloff is 70km and with 2 tracking computers with range scripts running, optimal becomes 58 and falloff becomes 99. do you have no support skills at all? 35km optimal on tachs in the base range with no bonuses skill or ship effecting it. Lol. I have all relevant gunnery skills to 5 except for large laser specialization, which currently sits at 4. We are talking about T2 Tachs with Imperial Navy Multifreq loaded, right?
why are you flying without TC's and bastion?
edit: you where looking at without bastion |
Justin Zaine
192
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Posted - 2015.02.18 15:26:57 -
[54] - Quote
I'm not, see post above
Edited previous posts to reflect improved reading skills
Wheeeeeee
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Justin Zaine
192
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Posted - 2015.02.18 15:48:34 -
[55] - Quote
Guess i'm extra tired this morning or perhaps just ********...
Okay, so just to get this straight...
Paladin 3 faction HS in the lows 2 tracking computers in the mids 4 T2 tachs and a bastion in the highs
All relevant large gunnery skills to 5 except for Large turret specialization which is at 4.
WITH NOTHING RUNNING (No bastion, no TC's): Optimal with INMF is at 45km.
WITH EVERYTHING RUNNING (Bastion, TC's with range scripts): Optimal with INMF is 69km.
So what I said in my first post about range is still true.
Perhaps you were thinking that the optimal of 45km was with everything running.
Sorry for the confusion.
Wheeeeeee
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Gregor Parud
Ordo Ardish
1162
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 16:27:56 -
[56] - Quote
Yes, that would just make too much sense. It couldn't be because you're clueless, made some dumb statements and are now back pedalling. |
Justin Zaine
192
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Posted - 2015.02.18 16:32:16 -
[57] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Yes, that would just make too much sense. It couldn't be because you're clueless, made some dumb statements and are now back pedalling.
Lol. Yeah i'm back pedalling, I made a mistake.
Now it's fixed.
And your point is...?
Wheeeeeee
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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
732
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 16:44:46 -
[58] - Quote
Grytok wrote:Thanks so far, I'll try both setups I guess, but I'm not to keen on using a MJD, but rather go only with a MWD. MJD lets you escape scrams. Used to use a MWD on my Vargur with 800mm autos, but after coming back to EVE I found that 1200mm artty + MJD worked better with bastion since its like driving up hill with the parking brake on (aka bastion roots you, MWD makes you go fast, they don't work well together, but when bastion is off MJD works to get to sniping position for 60km sniping and a simple AB is all you need to get gate to gate).
You are missing out if your not using a MJD. Good escape tool when you screw up triggers and can even get range on scramming frigs by jumping out. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
427
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 06:37:52 -
[59] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Grytok wrote:Thanks so far, I'll try both setups I guess, but I'm not to keen on using a MJD, but rather go only with a MWD. MJD lets you escape scrams. Used to use a MWD on my Vargur with 800mm autos, but after coming back to EVE I found that 1200mm artty + MJD worked better with bastion since its like driving up hill with the parking brake on (aka bastion roots you, MWD makes you go fast, they don't work well together, but when bastion is off MJD works to get to sniping position for 60km sniping and a simple AB is all you need to get gate to gate). You are missing out if your not using a MJD. Good escape tool when you screw up triggers and can even get range on scramming frigs by jumping out.
It is nice that the cool-down lines up so well with the Bastion's cycle time. It is especially useful on some Blood Raider's missions, since they do seem to like spawning out at ranges perfect for "Bastion bouncing" (someone said it in chat one day and I thought it sounded kind of catchy, can't really remember who though). I don't use it often, but I do carry one with an MDU.
And, you're right. It is a pretty awesome back-up in-case dps gets hot and **** starts rolling down the hill. A nice final little "F-you" and middle finger for the rare moments when rats actually put a Marauder's tank to the test, no? I almost feel sorry for the poor buggers, at least until I remember that it's what puts food on the table and isk in my pocket, so "NO MERCY!" |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
188
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 11:33:26 -
[60] - Quote
Pulse will outperform beams; however, pulse require more effort. You won't outperform beams by sitting back, and loading scorch. You really need to plan your aggro, primaries, and route/mobility to help ensure you get the most out of conflagration.
Another thing to consider is that with a pulse fit, you will almost always be in tractor range of the wrecks you create. Tractoring your wrecks during combat it a nice way to add a bit to your isk per hour, but again, requires more effort.
I prefer pulse on my pally, but IMO, it really depends on what your priorities are and how much effort you're wanting to put into it. |
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