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Why, exactly, is logging in a bubble not an exploit?

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mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.10 10:16:00 - [31] i had a raven log out on me while i was scrambling and killing it yesterday. when it died i didn't receive a killmail, maybe becuase he was logged out. Nothing else was near the raven that could have stolen the mail. corpmates probed out his pod afterwards. I'M IN YOUR SYSTEMS. I'M KILLING YOUR MANS!!!
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.10 10:35:00 - [32] To answer your question, its probably because CCP cannot distinguish between a crash and a deliberate log out and so they have taken the logical route and decided not to worry about the distinction at all. The alternative would be a lot of petitions you cannot really deal with, do you ban everyone that logs out in a bubble, even the ones who actually crash and ** people off or not ban them because its unprovable and ** people off? The Privateering Life
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.10 10:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Infinity Ziona To answer your question, its probably because CCP cannot distinguish between a crash and a deliberate log out and so they have taken the logical route and decided not to worry about the distinction at all. The alternative would be a lot of petitions you cannot really deal with, do you ban everyone that logs out in a bubble, even the ones who actually crash and ** people off or not ban them because its unprovable and ** people off? Then again, If I am pleasantly suprised if I end up in a hostile bubble alone and still manage to get my ship out. If I have buddies with me then it might be another kettle of fish but even then I am in a fight, if I get my ship out then it is a bonus. I like the idea of making bubbless agress all ships that they catch.... Even the campers, if Bobby camper is out and about he shouldn't mind this, he expects to be aggression flagged either way. Timmy disco shouldn't mind too much either, all he needs to do is log back on and get out to his safe in under what? 3 minutes? Now if his connection goes down just when he enters a bubble and he can't log back in, well that is really bad luck, and I mean that. However it has to be pretty unlikey unless he is having one of those bizare lag / disco days, if that is the case he should know better than being out somewhere dangerous.
Lo3d3R Implant Liberation Front Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.10 10:52:00 - [34] I recently had a freighter do this to me, there was no bubble but he did exactly the same, logging in and out. He managed to warp away a few times when scrambled !? When you bump him and keep him at 0 m/s when he logs out, my corp mates could not get a lock on him, when I unlocked, I could not lock him again, I had to wait till he warped to his 1 mil Km safe spot for the third time and probe him again. Finally we killed the bastard but really CCP has to take a look at this logging in and out crap, its exploitable as hell. ___________________ Eating Chopped Bear:
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2006.10.10 10:58:00 - [35] Kai, they are never going to understand. Let it go. And don't forget to log out. I'm gasping to log out on Camplaceny's Bane (typo intended) because I just --know-- his little temples will be throbbing. If they get their way on who gets to log out, and who doesn't, the next stop will be to force all accounts to log in and warp into his bubble even if they are out having a picnic with the kids. You can't make me play Eve with you, and nobody should make me do so either. Get over it. Again I ask you, camplacency, you never answered, should a miner be allowed to stop mining just because I stole his can? Are you ignoring it because it highlights the ridiculousness of your position? Because he CAN stop mining, and he CAN log out, and they often do, and that is THERE choice, not mine, and certainly not YOURS. YOU are NOT the most important man in Eve, get OVER it, once and for all GET OVER IT. I keep saying it, not because you will EVER understand, but because if there is nobody else to listen to, they might listen to YOU. And then, well, stuff would be weird.
Megan Ryder VentureCorp CORE.	Posted - 2006.10.10 11:08:00 - [36] bubbles should set the agress timer but not scram them. Seems a reasonable compromise between totally safe and totally ... well you get the idea Continuously logging on-off 30 odd times should be petitionable on grounds of un-due server load, let alone a completely lame-ass exploit to get around the aggro timer.
Fubear	Posted - 2006.10.10 11:33:00 - [37] This is not an exploit because CCP cannot tell me that I am not allowed to quit the game whenever I want to. If I want to quit, then I am allowed to quit. The problem is not that people quit when caught in a camp, it is that the emergency warp appears to ignore all bubbles and scrambling. If I am flying around in my battleship, and jump into a bubbled camp, I have two options: 1) Die and lose 50-200Mil worth of ships/fittings/cargo. 2) CTRL-Q and have a good chance of saving my ship. The bottom line is that I would rather save my ship and have a bunch of people whose opinions mean nothing to me think I am lame than lose my ship, fittings and cargo. Yes it is a bug, one I would like to see fixed, but since taking advantage of it has been confirmed by the GMs as a legitimate tactic, you bet I will consider it an option whenever I encoutner a camp.
xHoodx The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.10 11:44:00 - [38] If you can't handle people catching you fair and square without having to resort to exploiting a bug you have no business being in a part of space where you can be bubbled tbh, Fubear.
zoumau	Posted - 2006.10.10 11:46:00 - [39] 10 gankageddons with 3 sensorboosters, don't use webbers. Instapop the loggers. And now people ask why gatecamps need 10 gankageddons?
Semkhet The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.10 12:04:00 - [40] Edited by: Semkhet on 10/10/2006 12:06:07 From a conceptual logics perspective, the problem is simple: Despite the server being theorically able to make the distinction between the client aborting (crashing or whatever) and a normal application shutdown by checking for a specific feedback (which obviously only could be sent & received when the application terminates normally), you still would not solve the problem of people ordering the operating system to abort the client (via the task manager for example). Therefore checking a "normal shutdown" feedback is no solution against logging off after landing in a bubble/sphere. Of course, the game code could be altered so that when a disconnection occurs when a ship is within the effect area of a bubble/sphere, said ship doesen't warp out for a given amount of time. But you can easely imagine the amount of petitions this would induce if each time someones disconnects against his will in such situation, it automatically means loosing the ship and the pod... CCP has probably thought about this from all angles, and I suspect they simply choosed the status quo by preferring having from time to time a petition about this exploit rather than be bombarded by people saying that they lost their ship due to a disconnect, specially when CCP has no capacity whatsoever to find out if a disconnect is genuine or faked. End of story.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.10.10 12:20:00 - [41] If you can't handle people catching you fair and square without having to resort to exploiting a bug you have no business being in a part of space where you can be bubbled tbh, Fubear. --------------------------------------------- nice one noob. please come back here and tell me that again after loosing a expensive ship due to jumping into a bubbled gate with noway to escape. until ccp offers a viable solutiotion to jumping blind into a system without having to have another account as a scout, logoff tactic is going to be the solution. deal with it -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Karoth Tyu FATAL REVELATIONS	Posted - 2006.10.10 12:21:00 - [42] Originally by: Garia666 Its a lame tactic the only thing you can do is fraps it and confront the corp/alliance with it. The only problem with that is the corps/alliances which have members who do this on a regular basis, often don't care or encourage it
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 12:30:00 - [43] It makes no difference if the disconnect was real or faked or a logoff. If your in a bubble or scrammed by a player then your ship shouldn't go anywhere. If your ship gets agressed by a player at any time then it gets the 15 minute timer. It sucks to lose a connection and lose a ship but so many people abuse this bug that it's time to stop it. -----
Fubear	Posted - 2006.10.10 12:32:00 - [44] Originally by: xHoodx If you can't handle people catching you fair and square without having to resort to exploiting a bug you have no business being in a part of space where you can be bubbled tbh, Fubear. I can handle people catching me fair and square, I don't fly ships I can't afford to lose. That does not mean I will go out of my way to lose them. Give me one good reason why I should sit and watch my ship explode rather than CTRL-Q with a 90% chance to save it, bearing in mind that its a tactic explicitly allowed by CCP and I couldn't care less how lame you may think it is. If the bug gets fixed, then thats great, things will work as they should. In the mean time I will use every legal tactic in the book to ensure I come out as far ahead as possible.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Gemini Zero When you are aggressed and log off you ship warps randomly and will remain there for 15 min, possibly enough time for your aggressor to scan you out and kill you. If you are not aggressed and you log off your ship warps off and you disappear, no chance of scanning. The problem with the bubbles is if you drop a bubble on a gate to end a chase, the victim jumps in to the system directly inside the bubble. He's cloaked for a short while and thinks over his options. Then he cowards out and logs off. The problem in this situation is he logged off BEFORE he was aggressed since he was still cloaked inside the bubble, therefore he is not scannable. SIMPLE SOLUTION FOR CCP: Make warp disruption probes AGGRESS Actually, this is not the issue in this case. After the dommie jumped into my bubble both me and Vaughn locked him and we both webbed him, and I personally put about 60 bloodclaw fury missiles into him. While he didn't fire back, he definately had an agression timer. The issue (besides the actual behavior) is that logging out and back on apparently no longer resets your agression timer, so that the person in question can keep logging out and back in to keep moving safespots without being actuallly in game more than a few seconds until the original 15 minute timer elapses, where he then just stays logged out. For those who are not certian that I mean what I have just said I assure you that was the case in this situation, because each logout moved him to a different 1m km safe which we would then probe - he wouldn't be there any more, but we would keep up with his hijinks, since we expected that eventually he'd have to quit eve due to time restraints and we'd have his totally lame rear end. However after 15m he was totally gone from the scanner which was a total suprise and also rewarded him for this lame behavior. Raptor and Ares Fix
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:07:00 - [46] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Just fix the damn bug so bubbles\scrams and the agression timer works after logout. No need to ban people jsut fix the bug asap! QFT. End of discussion. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
xHoodx The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Gonada If you can't handle people catching you fair and square without having to resort to exploiting a bug you have no business being in a part of space where you can be bubbled tbh, Fubear. --------------------------------------------- nice one noob. please come back here and tell me that again after loosing a expensive ship due to jumping into a bubbled gate with noway to escape. until ccp offers a viable solutiotion to jumping blind into a system without having to have another account as a scout, logoff tactic is going to be the solution. deal with it What makes you think I haven't on several occasions, gonada? I would say I deal with it unlike you who seem to prefer to avoid the problem in any way possible. Also apart from using a scout there is the map that will provide some valuable information if you care to look at it. If I die I go down fighting at least instead of using every loophole I know of to weasel my way out of something I could have avoided if I had been less careless.
xHoodx The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:18:00 - [48] Originally by: Fubear Originally by: xHoodx If you can't handle people catching you fair and square without having to resort to exploiting a bug you have no business being in a part of space where you can be bubbled tbh, Fubear. I can handle people catching me fair and square, I don't fly ships I can't afford to lose. That does not mean I will go out of my way to lose them. Give me one good reason why I should sit and watch my ship explode rather than CTRL-Q with a 90% chance to save it, bearing in mind that its a tactic explicitly allowed by CCP and I couldn't care less how lame you may think it is. If the bug gets fixed, then thats great, things will work as they should. In the mean time I will use every legal tactic in the book to ensure I come out as far ahead as possible. Well, I guess in my opinion you made a mistake in jumping into the camp in the first place and it would be a credit to you if you live with it rather than sneak out of it through some loophole ccp obviously never intended to be there. Better to go down fighting than to log off like that in my opinion.
Rippey Minmatar hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:22:00 - [49] Imho, i'd like to see a solution where the only safe way to "hide" your ship is to dock in a station or leave it at a POS i.e. the ship always stays in space and "vanishes". Why? It's part of the 0.0 game. If you enter 0.0 you're placing yourself to a risk which shouldn't be avoidable by logging off in any way. The only way to be perfectly safe is to stay in 0.5 empire and hug those veld roids. The same goes for the sole uberstabbed TCF dominix, as for the whole goon fleet of frigs. As a backup, incase it's the server commiting the fault causing your client to crash, then your ship should be immedeatly "rescued" and re-placed into the game at a safe'ish spot upon the moment you're logging in. my 0.2 cents. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail It makes no difference if the disconnect was real or faked or a logoff. If your in a bubble or scrammed by a player then your ship shouldn't go anywhere. If your ship gets agressed by a player at any time then it gets the 15 minute timer. It sucks to lose a connection and lose a ship but so many people abuse this bug that it's time to stop it. This is IMO the actual issue here. Currently there are 2 game mechanics, which are closely related but in practice have different effects. The first is logging out while you are warp scrammed with a standard 20km or 7.5km scrambler. As long as you have more scramble strength than they have WCS, logging will accomplish nothing. You'll disconnect but the effect will be that your ship will go nowhere and it'll stay in space for the full 15 minutes, which should be more than enough time to finish someone off unless you're incompentent. This is different than what happens with bubbles. Logging off in a bubble causes someone to instantly warp off to a safe where they then sit there for 15 minutes, which you would think is more than enough time to get him with a prober but as seen from my OP actually does nothing if the logger is willing to take it to the next uncounterable step. The effects of this behavior are extremely detrimental to PvP in eve. What this does is encourage people like Fubear to log out whenever they find a bubble, since they can't be stopped from doing so, while ensuring that their ships are completely loaded out with warp core stabs in all their low slots so that in case there is someone at the gate with conventional scrambling equipment it is highly unlikely they will have enough to prevent the logoff "tactic" from succeeding. In short it encourages what most people consider to be the worst of eve PvP, logging off to avoid negative consequence and the use of WCS to the nth degree to make yourself nearly unstoppable in game. I am frankly very dissapointed to see how many think that this is perfectly acceptable behavior in this thread. Even if it is allowed by game mechanics, a personal sense of responsibility should stop you from doing what is clearly inappropriate. I would personally define an exploit as a tactic that gains a individual an unfair advantage by the use of either in game or (especially) out of game means. While it may be allowed by CCP this does not mean that it does not conform to this description and I find it disappointing that some cannot or will not see the distinction. In the game previously that I played the server was a private server hosted by a friend, where if you lost a battle and disconnected to save yourself from death you were required to log back in and self destruct - failing to do this would lead to a server ban. While I doubt this would ever happen here I could at least wish that the spirit of sportsmanship that is reflected in this rule would be respected in this game. Unfortunately this is not the case. Raptor and Ares Fix
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:38:00 - [51] I think a much better question is: Why is it possible to escape through logging in a bubble. To call it exploit is... well, slightly riddled with problems. It is a strange programming solution, however, that bubbles do not catch log-warps (same goes for scramblers activated on ships after they logged, I believe). - Three years old
Maltrox Minmatar The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:42:00 - [52] Originally by: Rippey The only way to be perfectly safe is to stay in 0.5 empire and hug those veld roids. Even Veldroids can be dangerous As for the topic: I am pleasantly amused at the flaming :). It shows the maturity and logic process of some of our community in extravagant colors. As for my two bits, I sit on the fence. 1) I can see CTRL + Q-on-a-bubble mentioned by Fub there as being a "valid" tactic. Carpet bombing wasn't "fair" in WWII, but it was effective. Logging out on a bubble isn't "fair", but it's effective. 2) Mr. Login-Logout-Login repeatedly is quite different from Mr. MyPCorGame Just Crashed help! The former has no excuse and is being lame in my personal opinion. To most pilots, that doesn't matter. The latter has every right in the book to get away from any bubble. The question is, how is the server going to determine between a legitimate disconnect and someone who is just running scared? It isn't. It's not smart enough to do it on it's own. Not until it's been programmed and re-programmed and tweaked will it detect the difference. And then guess what? There's going to be bugs with THAT as well. Unplugging a modem anyone? ;)
Mark Weston Caldari The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:45:00 - [53] Originally by: Tiny Tove Kai, they are never going to understand. Let it go. And don't forget to log out. I'm gasping to log out on Camplaceny's Bane (typo intended) because I just --know-- his little temples will be throbbing. If they get their way on who gets to log out, and who doesn't, the next stop will be to force all accounts to log in and warp into his bubble even if they are out having a picnic with the kids. You can't make me play Eve with you, and nobody should make me do so either. Get over it. Again I ask you, camplacency, you never answered, should a miner be allowed to stop mining just because I stole his can? Are you ignoring it because it highlights the ridiculousness of your position? Because he CAN stop mining, and he CAN log out, and they often do, and that is THERE choice, not mine, and certainly not YOURS. YOU are NOT the most important man in Eve, get OVER it, once and for all GET OVER IT. I keep saying it, not because you will EVER understand, but because if there is nobody else to listen to, they might listen to YOU. And then, well, stuff would be weird. This is just nonsense. No-one is demanding the right to stop you logging out whenever you want. They just don't see why logging out should save you from certain death. New to EVE? Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Ma'Kur Pridar	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:49:00 - [54] have you thought of the possibility that he may have had login troubles, ive had this happen to me before, where you get stuck with a blank screen after character selection. This happened on my main character. However, this may not have been the case, but it is a possibility.
xHoodx The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.10 13:59:00 - [55] Originally by: Ma'Kur Pridar have you thought of the possibility that he may have had login troubles, ive had this happen to me before, where you get stuck with a blank screen after character selection. This happened on my main character. However, this may not have been the case, but it is a possibility. While it's entirely possible does it not seem odd to you he stopped trying to log in right after the 15 minute aggro timer was gone? Up until this point he could still be scanned down using probes, after the timer is up his ship will simply disappear and he can no longer be scanned down. Mission accomplished it would seem.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:08:00 - [56] 1: Warp bubbles should hold a logged/disconnected ship in the same manner that sufficient jammers do. 2: The only solution to the reapeatedly logging in/logging off tactic would be to either fix the aggression time to work properly (and this would frankly still not solve the problem if the pilot has the endurance to keep it up until everyone has given up), or make it so that you can only log in once every 5 minutes or so. With the latter solution if you lose connection you can log back in freely the first time and continue. If you are repeately losing connection or playing games your adversaries would have a fair chance of finding you if they were quick enough. I'm sorry, but in the extremely rare situation of someone repeatedly losing connection in the presence of a very well organized enemy force, that should be chalked up to bad luck and a lost ship. That's just the way it has to be, it's too easy to exploit otherwise.
Dario Wall Caldari Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:09:00 - [57] Want to stop the spread of log-off tactics? Stop posting about it on the forums, and send an email to CCP instead, or bug report it. All you do by posting this here is tell even more people how to use these tactics, and until people learn to NOT post them, they will continue to spread. How many people do you think read these forums each day? Now, how many people will have read this thread, and found out they have a new way to stay alive? All your sigs are belong to us - Xorus
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:10:00 - [58] we been through this already ! anyone can and shall be able to log off when he/she wants too, however the game mechanic from doing soo could use a fix.. if some one that is inside a boubble or simple warp scrambled and than loggs off should not warp away,,, their should be a 5-10mins delay for ship to leave game after loggin out when under a target lock from another ship, if one has no lock(s) on his/hers ship, the logg off(ship leaves) should be instant. as for boubbles that is another discusion, however let me still share my opinien on that too: boubbles are not an exploit, but a very very lame game mechanic that also needs to be changed. to summen it up.: logg off tactic: game mechanic when doing so is wrong ! peaplo who used this(exploits it): are honerless and lame ! boubbles: a game feature that needs to be changed ! peaplo who used this game feature: is using a lame game feature which makes them lame, although slighty less than the above lamers.
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:15:00 - [59] Edited by: Tiny Tove on 10/10/2006 14:19:33 Originally by: Mark Weston This is just nonsense. No-one is demanding the right to stop you logging out whenever you want. They just don't see why logging out should save you from certain death. But they are demanding that logging off guarantees a certain death. I level the same charge at you. Utter nonsense. (Don't tell Camplacency that I said this) I'm not actually against logging in or out. It would be fine if it was --impossible-- to EVER log out, and you remain where you were until you run out structure/pod, or you log back in. What I am against is people wanting all the cake and eating all of it, and crying a lot when nobody brings them more cake. I read a lot of the stuff. For most of it, I don't respond to, because there are people who know a lot more about it than I do, let them argue it out. As far as I can tell the "you can get past camps" argument is flawed, because although, yes you can, you probably CAN'T in the ship that you currently need to get past the camp. So the "I Win Button" arguement does apply. To compound it, the number of ships that have a very high chance of passing a camp are builds that are generally only any good for passing a camp, but not for achieving anything else you may wish to get done that evening, so the idea that I either a) achieve nothing tonight or b) lose my ship and achieve nothing tonight is not the sort of prospect I should be forced into. Coupled again with the fact that camps are too often emlpoyed for collecting kill mails, rather than defending territory which I would agree "is not lame", it makes gate camping way too much of a problem to start making concessions to campers, and Eve is the only place I know of where campers have any support or following, every other game they are villified. Hopefully CCP make a sensible decision on it. The current "it's not an exploit" is just a fluff as they're probably too busy to look at it right now. But in the end, I would hope for, no bubbles at gates you don't hold territorial claims over + stop logwarps on bubbles, but if they make it so a miner can't stop mining if I steal his jet can, the step too far would be complete. Sadly the people who enjoy carebear camping are asking for too much, and every effort should be made to resist them, and being extreme in the opposite direction hopefully causes a balance in the minds of the very people who are going to address the problem.
Fubear	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:24:00 - [60] Edited by: Fubear on 10/10/2006 14:26:03 Originally by: xHoodx Originally by: Fubear Originally by: xHoodx If you can't handle people catching you fair and square without having to resort to exploiting a bug you have no business being in a part of space where you can be bubbled tbh, Fubear. I can handle people catching me fair and square, I don't fly ships I can't afford to lose. That does not mean I will go out of my way to lose them. Give me one good reason why I should sit and watch my ship explode rather than CTRL-Q with a 90% chance to save it, bearing in mind that its a tactic explicitly allowed by CCP and I couldn't care less how lame you may think it is. If the bug gets fixed, then thats great, things will work as they should. In the mean time I will use every legal tactic in the book to ensure I come out as far ahead as possible. Well, I guess in my opinion you made a mistake in jumping into the camp in the first place and it would be a credit to you if you live with it rather than sneak out of it through some loophole ccp obviously never intended to be there. Better to go down fighting than to log off like that in my opinion. At the end of the day, I still have my ship, fittings, and cargo while you lose it all and end up starting at the clone bay walls. Overall I come out ahead. I am not a shining internet space knight bound by a code of e-honour. Faced with the choice between fighthing a futile battle and dying, or escaping with my ship intact, I choose the latter.

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