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Why, exactly, is logging in a bubble not an exploit?

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Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:11:00 - [1] I realize that this has been covered before, but I've just had an in game "experience" that has brought the question back big time. I speak of logging inside a interdictor bubble or warp bubble. I just had an engagement against a TCF dominix piloted by oth4l4 where after a fairly long chase I managed with a corp mate to catch him on the entry gate to 3A1P-N, where before he jumped in I dumped a bubble on the gate. When he jumped into system myself and the taranis grabbed him instantly and double webbed him making it so he couldn't go anywhere. As soon as the calvary shows up in system to finish him off he logs out, and warps away, because he's running fully stabbed and it's extremely difficult to stop a ship like this from normal means. This is not unfortunately unusual these days, but what happened next took it to the extreme. In our gang jumping into the system was a cov ops and we then proceeded to probe him down. However, what he did was then to log in, and before the screen would load he'd log out again. This would then warp him to another, different safespot 1m km from the other spot he just logged in from. He then proceeded to repeat this about 30 more times, each time logging in and out before a scan result could be recieved. After 15 minutes his timer then expired and I'm sure he was laughing his posterior off as he then stayed logged out as his ship dissapeared from the scanner. My understanding had been doing this would cause you to reset your timer each time you log and therefore this would not work. I was unfortunately wrong. The problem with this is that there is literally nothing that can be done to counter this lame tactic. It's a "I win" button in eve. All it takes is a individual with no personal honor or sense of sportsmanship and they can't be stopped. We of course petitioned this and the response from CCP was that this is a perfectly valid tactic that is allowed under the game's term of service. The question I'd like to know, why is it possible to log out from a bubble and warp away, but not possible to escape scrambling? Aside from the totally disgusting personal behavior of this individual, why do game mechanics as currently constituted exist in this manner? The current situation actually encourages this behavior, because there is no consequences to it and it is 100% effective. CCP needs to address this because frankly it's causing an enormous amount of fustration in 0.0 combat as this becomes more and more common. The current situation is a sad state of affairs which places a black mark on the game of eve, where someone can use out of game "tactics" to counter superior, in game tactics. I sincerely hope that CCP will do something about this in the near future but I'm afraid it will require people insisting that CCP do something to actually address this issue. Raptor and Ares Fix
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:15:00 - [2] Hmm, I was under the assumption that as soon as you attacked him he would get a fifteen minute agression countdown and wouldn't disappear from that location for fifteen minutes. Join Tharsis! - Get Sexy Sigs
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:17:00 - [3] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 10/10/2006 04:18:29 He's allowed to (not) play EVE any way he wants. This includes using obvious-but-unpunished exploits to save a ship that never should have survived due to his carelessness otherwise. Hopefully the bug with interdictor bubbles will get eventually fixed. Until then, well... bug abuse away. Originally by: Aeaus Hmm, I was under the assumption that as soon as you attacked him he would get a fifteen minute agression countdown and wouldn't disappear from that location for fifteen minutes. He was PvP flagged, but you still warp off if able. However, if you log, you'll warp off ignoring interdictor bubbles even though you should not be able. He then proceeded to log in and out while his timer ran down so the people probing him couldnt get a fix. Its basically several exploits all used at the same time to make him all but unkillable.
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:18:00 - [4] Edited by: Kai Lae on 10/10/2006 04:19:10 Originally by: Aeaus Hmm, I was under the assumption that as soon as you attacked him he would get a fifteen minute agression countdown and wouldn't disappear from that location for fifteen minutes. This was my understanding as well. Apparently it's wrong. You do get the 15 minute timer, but it lasts for 15 minutes. You apparently can log in and out for as many times as you like during this time until your ship disappears. This is what makes this tactic so wrong and "exploitative" IMO even if CCP does not consider it so, because there's no counter and nothing you can do to prevent it. Raptor and Ares Fix
Awox Minmatar Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:18:00 - [5] Because CCP don't have the balls to ban paying customers?
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Awox Because CCP don't have the balls to ban paying customers? Oh, they do. You cant really ban people for this, since it is possible that people crash (even though most situations are blatently obvious exploits of bugs in the logoff system). It would be left up to GM discretion in each case (of which there would be many), and most of the GMs just dont have judgement good enough to adjudicate these kinds of petitions. The real solution is to fix the bugs that make it possible, but dont hold your breath for that.
Lister Black The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:24:00 - [7] Originally by: Awox Because CCP don't have the balls to ban paying customers? The 2000+ accounts banned this year for exploiting beg to differ. ---------------------------- "Unshrink you?! Well that would require some sort of a REbigulator, which is a concept so ridiculous it makes me want to laugh out loud and chortle..." -Prof.Frink
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:34:00 - [8] What CCP needs the balls to fix id the lame mechanic of camp camping they introduced. It is weak and pathetic tactic that is shunned upon in most every other game. They caved in and made 0.0 ultra carebear land for those established out there. It shouldnt be that way 0.0 should be risky and dangerous for all not just the few willing to explore. Right now there is far too many advantages and sdafety nets for those supposedly claiming space, allowing them to reside in the space they control with too much safety, and controlling far mroe space that they deserve to hold simply due to poor design creating severe choke points. Sooner they grow a pair and remove this the soioner logging out of a gate camp will dissappear, and the sooner people will truly have to learn to be organised and handle real pvp.
Foznez	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Microsoft It is a feature. QFE
Kai Lae Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 What CCP needs the balls to fix id the lame mechanic of camp camping they introduced. It is weak and pathetic tactic that is shunned upon in most every other game. They caved in and made 0.0 ultra carebear land for those established out there. It shouldnt be that way 0.0 should be risky and dangerous for all not just the few willing to explore. Right now there is far too many advantages and sdafety nets for those supposedly claiming space, allowing them to reside in the space they control with too much safety, and controlling far mroe space that they deserve to hold simply due to poor design creating severe choke points. Sooner they grow a pair and remove this the soioner logging out of a gate camp will dissappear, and the sooner people will truly have to learn to be organised and handle real pvp. Are you saying that as long as you can camp gates, that logging out like this is a valid tactic? Raptor and Ares Fix

Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:50:00 - [11] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 What CCP needs the balls to fix id the lame mechanic of camp camping they introduced. It is weak and pathetic tactic that is shunned upon in most every other game. They caved in and made 0.0 ultra carebear land for those established out there. It shouldnt be that way 0.0 should be risky and dangerous for all not just the few willing to explore. Right now there is far too many advantages and sdafety nets for those supposedly claiming space, allowing them to reside in the space they control with too much safety, and controlling far mroe space that they deserve to hold simply due to poor design creating severe choke points. Sooner they grow a pair and remove this the soioner logging out of a gate camp will dissappear, and the sooner people will truly have to learn to be organised and handle real pvp. I'm sorry, you appear to have lost your way. Or, what makes you think this thread has anything to do with gatecamps again? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:50:00 - [12] It's just an easy way for ccp from dealing with it until they fix it. _______________ The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
Deros Minmatar Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:56:00 - [13] the simple easy and obvious answer is that he is not exploiting anything to do what he is doing, he simply logs out. the fact that its bent that this happens is a completely different point to discuss ;) D
GeekWarrior Gallente Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.10.10 04:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Deros the simple easy and obvious answer is that he is not exploiting anything to do what he is doing, he simply logs out. 30 times? and yes I was there. ----------------------------- EVE Addict, creator of the EVE Online Forms Greasemonkey Script \o/
Yoko Milan Phantom Squad iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.10 05:04:00 - [15] Ok, maybe someone can explain a little portion that I've missed here. Most people tell me that if you get disconected, logged or however it happens that you warp off and disapear instantly. I'm guessing from what I've read in this post so far is that yes you will just warp off and disapear unless you were agro'ed in which case you would warp off and disapear in 15 minutes? Am I correct in understanding this? But yes this guys tactics are dispicable I agree. I'm glad that the mechanics in the game exist that allow me to when I do get disconected by my lowly dialup connection that my ships warp off to safety. But doing that 30 times in a row does sound like an exploit to me. Unfortunatly my Blow Up <Insert Players Name> punishment button is disabled atm. RL "My front door is Gate Camped"
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 05:11:00 - [16] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 10/10/2006 05:12:37 Originally by: Yoko Milan Ok, maybe someone can explain a little portion that I've missed here. Most people tell me that if you get disconected, logged or however it happens that you warp off and disapear instantly. I'm guessing from what I've read in this post so far is that yes you will just warp off and disapear unless you were agro'ed in which case you would warp off and disapear in 15 minutes. The issue at hand is that interdictor bubbles, billed as one-stop shopping for preventing warps, do not prevent emergency warps initiated by logoffs. The in-and-out to avoid probing is also annoying, but less blatently bugged. Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 What CCP needs the balls to fix id the lame mechanic of camp camping they introduced. It is weak and pathetic tactic that is shunned upon in most every other game. They caved in and made 0.0 ultra carebear land for those established out there. It shouldnt be that way 0.0 should be risky and dangerous for all not just the few willing to explore. Right now there is far too many advantages and sdafety nets for those supposedly claiming space, allowing them to reside in the space they control with too much safety, and controlling far mroe space that they deserve to hold simply due to poor design creating severe choke points. Sooner they grow a pair and remove this the soioner logging out of a gate camp will dissappear, and the sooner people will truly have to learn to be organised and handle real pvp. Thats like saying that the solution to high-sec lvl 4 missions is to disable all weapons from working on anything in high-sec. Its stupid, ignorant, and causes far more problems then it solves.
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 05:22:00 - [17] Well, obviously it is an exploit, it's just not an illegal exploit untill a member of CCP says it is. Not all exploits are illegal (jet can mining, insta bookmarks come to mind). Sadly they don't seem willing to do so.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.10.10 05:23:00 - [18] Are you saying that as long as you can camp gates, that logging out like this is a valid tactic? -------------------------- yes -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.-
Ephemeron Crimson Crusaders Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.10 05:56:00 - [19] I want this fixed. I don't just dislike it when other people do it. I dislike it also because I have to do it too, to stay competitive. I have to use any legal, non-bannable means of winning. By allowing such bad tactics, CCP is forcing me to be a low life Just fix it already, should be easy and makes perfect sense.
Gemini Zero Caldari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.10 08:38:00 - [20] When you are aggressed and log off you ship warps randomly and will remain there for 15 min, possibly enough time for your aggressor to scan you out and kill you. If you are not aggressed and you log off your ship warps off and you disappear, no chance of scanning. The problem with the bubbles is if you drop a bubble on a gate to end a chase, the victim jumps in to the system directly inside the bubble. He's cloaked for a short while and thinks over his options. Then he cowards out and logs off. The problem in this situation is he logged off BEFORE he was aggressed since he was still cloaked inside the bubble, therefore he is not scannable. SIMPLE SOLUTION FOR CCP: Make warp disruption probes AGGRESS ]

Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.10.10 08:42:00 - [21] make it so u have a 10-20% chance of escaping bubbles then peeps wouldnt use the tactic as much as it stands bubbles are 100% effective so yeah carebears are going to log. Petition him anyway see what happens
CyberGh0st	Posted - 2006.10.10 08:44:00 - [22] This is a pointless conversation, the day when CCP tells me when or when not to logoff, I quit, period. NO ONE is going to tell me when to logoff or when to logon, now stump that in the thick skull of yours. If this causes problems with game mechanics, then change the game mechanics. Bye.
Raquel Smith Caldari Ferengi Commerce Authority	Posted - 2006.10.10 08:50:00 - [23] Originally by: CyberGh0st Edited by: CyberGh0st on 10/10/2006 08:47:25 This is a pointless conversation, the day when CCP tells me when or when not to logoff, I quit, period. NO ONE is going to tell me when to logoff or when to logon, now stump that in the thick skull of yours. If this causes problems with game mechanics, then change the game mechanics. edit : My god you people are dumb, petitioning someone cause he logs off and on. Greetings, CyberGh0st. But, but, exploits!
CyberGh0st	Posted - 2006.10.10 08:52:00 - [24] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 10/10/2006 08:54:06 Originally by: Mak'shar Karrde Well, obviously it is an exploit, it's just not an illegal exploit untill a member of CCP says it is. Not all exploits are illegal (jet can mining, insta bookmarks come to mind). Sadly they don't seem willing to do so. You are a fool to think CCP wil ever make this a bannable offense. I think you need to step out of the game for a while and start to use your brain. What if I end up in a bubble, and have to log for some reason? I am not allowed to? What if I decide to log on again? I am not allowed to? Greetings, CyberGh0st.
Wild Rho Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.10 09:05:00 - [25] Originally by: Lister Black Originally by: Awox Because CCP don't have the balls to ban paying customers? The 2000+ accounts banned this year for exploiting beg to differ. Nearly all trial accounts, not paying accounts. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 09:12:00 - [26] Its a lame tactic the only thing you can do is fraps it and confront the corp/alliance with it. sadly all seems allowed in times of war. The problem is you can`t warp out from a bubble however when you log of you will warp out.. You just stay logged out until its safe.. They should make an extra counter When warp in bubble = 30sec delay in warping off .. ->My Vids<-
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 09:17:00 - [27] Just fix the damn bug so bubbles\scrams and the agression timer works after logout. No need to ban people jsut fix the bug asap! -----
Mak'shar Karrde Minmatar UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 09:24:00 - [28] Originally by: CyberGh0st Edited by: CyberGh0st on 10/10/2006 08:54:06 Originally by: Mak'shar Karrde Well, obviously it is an exploit, it's just not an illegal exploit untill a member of CCP says it is. Not all exploits are illegal (jet can mining, insta bookmarks come to mind). Sadly they don't seem willing to do so. You are a fool to think CCP wil ever make this a bannable offense. I think you need to step out of the game for a while and start to use your brain. What if I end up in a bubble, and have to log for some reason? I am not allowed to? What if I decide to log on again? I am not allowed to? Greetings, CyberGh0st. I am under no illusion. I have long since abandoned my hope of them clamping down on this. Nobody is telling you that you can't log off, just that, by doing so, it should not completely bypass the mechanics of the game by making you completely invulnerable to a bubble you have already jumped in to. The odd person logging off to avoid a bubble stopped being the main problem a long time ago now. Now entire fleets are logging off to avoid bubbles. PvP fleets at that. It's just gone beyond a joke.
The Snowman Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.10.10 09:31:00 - [29] I just think its because they dont have the man-power to enforce it, if this was made an exploit.. think of the amount of work they would give themselves in petitions.
RinaWers Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.10.10 09:34:00 - [30] Originally by: CyberGh0st Edited by: CyberGh0st on 10/10/2006 08:47:25 This is a pointless conversation, the day when CCP tells me when or when not to logoff, I quit, period. NO ONE is going to tell me when to logoff or when to logon, now stump that in the thick skull of yours. If this causes problems with game mechanics, then change the game mechanics. edit : My god you people are dumb, petitioning someone cause he logs off and on. Greetings, CyberGh0st. Please do it, ppl like u is what we dont need.



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