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Why, exactly, is logging in a bubble not an exploit?

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reched Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:40:00 - [91] 1. 3 logins every 5 minutes 2. your aggress timer does not go down while you are logged out. and it should be an exploit to clog the login server with unnessasary logins. - reched
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:41:00 - [92] Originally by: Ariel Dawn I like how bubble-campers talk about honour and how logging off in a bubble is such a vile practice. If someone logs, they'll still have to warp back to continue playing at some point. If the camp is one being used to defend territory, you'll catch them. If its just a killmail camp, they'll live. Stop whining, EVE is a game and people don't have to play it your way. Unfortunately if they do it correctly, they don't end up back where they started. Once they're past the camp, the initiative is all on their side through safespots and more logging. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:42:00 - [93] Edited by: Plutoinum on 10/10/2006 19:42:23 Originally by: Complacency's Bane Its a bug, it needs to get fixed. There is no possible defense of it as anything but a bug. At least most of the people are defending their use of it as "well, as long as its here I'm going to exploit the hell out of it", which is lame, but not idiotic like "OMG GATECAMPZ R T3H SUK". Yes, agree. CCP should just change/fix it instead of labeling it an exploit that noone could prove anyway. Most people will adapt, also the people who are afraid to cdt in a bubble. If 1 or 2 people threaten to leave EVE, because they can't log off in bubbles anymore, who cares ? Guess a 'clean' game keeps more players in EVE after all. Many people would rather quit, because being annoyed/bored of lame borderline exploit tactics than quit, because those holes got fixed.
Ariel Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:45:00 - [94] Well, perhaps removing the deviation when logging back in from your log off spot to none instead of about 15km would solve this bubble-logging problem. Camps with legitimate reasons to be there would (defending territory) still catch the logger while those who soley play EVE to have a flashing evemail button would still be avoidable.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:47:00 - [95] Originally by: Ariel Dawn Well, perhaps removing the deviation when logging back in from your log off spot to none instead of about 15km would solve this bubble-logging problem. Camps with legitimate reasons to be there would (defending territory) still catch the logger while those who soley play EVE to have a flashing evemail button would still be avoidable. Ehh? The 15k difference on a legitimate logon is irrelevant - repeated logon/instalogoffs to create new 1m km safespots every 30 seconds is why you cant catch anyone who manages to log out of a bubble.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:53:00 - [96] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Christos Hendez Amazing how anyone can justify logging in a bubble to save their ship. For those that are trying to justify this then why are you playing this type of game? Eve IS risk versus reward in every format of pvp (all types). I play this game to have fun. Fun does not involve losing 100 million ISK in cargo, or 500 million ISK in ships and fittings and implants. I actually got a strange sense of enjoyment when I denied Red Alliance a chance to pop a badger 2. I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games. I wonder about that attitude applied to other games. Fun isn't losing a dice roll, so I use loaded dice? Fun isn't being checkmated, so I don't play chess with people who know how to play? Fun isn't having to work for items, so I dupe them? Fun isn't losing, so I'll flip the board if it looks like I'm about to lose. The things that make the LowSec game interesting are the constant possibility of getting knocked down, combined with the ability to pick yourself back up. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Smiffa Gallente Perpetual Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:56:00 - [97] Originally by: Nira Li Ppl who log in combat are ppl that never will be succesfull in eve and they only log becasue they suck and can't comprehend a loss in a game. I don't log, but I still suck bad. Good job I like the eye candy
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:07:00 - [98] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/10/2006 20:11:12 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/10/2006 20:10:05 Quote: I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games. Irrelevant. The only people that could even be close to the traditional definition of a PK in any other games terms would be a person in your own corp, alliance, or gang that suddenly opened fire on his mates. Wrong game, wrong genre. You don't call the members of your team in Battlefield 1942 PK's if they kill the enemy, and you don't call them that in EVE. Get a grip, and get back on topic.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:13:00 - [99] Edited by: Nyxus on 10/10/2006 20:16:46 Originally by: Taram Caldar so if I log off, legitimately, my ship should sit there in space for 15 minutes, even though I've done nothing wrong, so high sec suicide squads can probe me and destroy me (or just destroy me if I'm at a gate) and get my things. No, you have misunderstood my suggestion. When you log off or disconnect in space, your ship will still warp off (if you aren't scrambled or in a bubble), but then it will sit in that safespot for 15 minutes. If you crash from a mission, or just log off for the night in space there won't be any change. None. This only effects people who log off in space to avoid those looking for them with probes. Meta-gaming at its worst. And tbh this effects pirates WAY WAY more than anyone else. Those that attack a weak character, then bounce from SS to SS till they can log off and disapear, only to log back on later. Or those that log out at a gate and do the "log on, log off, repeat" to avoid those that are persuing them. Originally by: Taram Calder You want it to be easier to kill people. No, I want to stop people from abusing game mechanics to gain an advantage over others. Originally by: CCP Rules and Policies You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players. Dictionary of Computing defines "Bug" as: <programming> An unwanted and unintended property of a program. CCP's very own description of a bubble is "A Medium deployable self powered unit that prevents warping within its area of effect." CCPs own description of how the bubble functions determines and defines that warping out of the bubble is an uninteded property, and therefore a bug. Exploiting this bug breaks the Rules and Policies as explicitily published by CCP. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Ariel Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:14:00 - [100] Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Ariel Dawn Well, perhaps removing the deviation when logging back in from your log off spot to none instead of about 15km would solve this bubble-logging problem. Camps with legitimate reasons to be there would (defending territory) still catch the logger while those who soley play EVE to have a flashing evemail button would still be avoidable. Ehh? The 15k difference on a legitimate logon is irrelevant - repeated logon/instalogoffs to create new 1m km safespots every 30 seconds is why you cant catch anyone who manages to log out of a bubble. I was refering to the point to which you warp back to when you log in, not where you warp to when you log out. This would solve the problem of people escaping from legitimate territory control bubble camps, while killmail kiddies would be denied.

Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:17:00 - [101] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 10/10/2006 20:17:27 Originally by: Ariel Dawn Quote: Ehh? The 15k difference on a legitimate logon is irrelevant - repeated logon/instalogoffs to create new 1m km safespots every 30 seconds is why you cant catch anyone who manages to log out of a bubble. I was refering to the point to which you warp back to when you log in, not where you warp to when you log out. This would solve the problem of people escaping from legitimate territory control bubble camps, while killmail kiddies would be denied. Ok, youre not getting this - let me see if I can explain it in small words. 15k difference from where you logout-warped from is not important. If that was the issue, noone would care. When people logout, they warp out to a 1m km safespot. Still not a problem. When people login at those 1m km safespots, they should warp back to where they logged from. However, if they login and then logout immedietely, they will warp to a new 1m km safespot. From there, they can login and warp to a different bookmark (insta, high-quality safespot, etc), or they can just repeat the logon/logoff for 15 minutes, making it so they cant be probed down and will eventually disappear when their flagging timer runs down.
Raquel Smith Caldari Ferengi Commerce Authority	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:19:00 - [102] Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Raquel Smith I play this game to have fun. Fun does not involve losing 100 million ISK in cargo, or 500 million ISK in ships and fittings and implants. I actually got a strange sense of enjoyment when I denied Red Alliance a chance to pop a badger 2. I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games. Thats nice. You managed to log a badger against a few frigates/single interdictor and you think youre special. It was a little more substantial than that, but thanks for playing! My cargo made it to its destination after a slight delay. I have no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact I would encourage everyone to use it. I don't feel bad at all about logging out in a "PVP game" since I'm not playing this game (now) to PVP.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:22:00 - [103] Originally by: Raquel Smith It was a little more substantial than that, but thanks for playing! If it was more substansial then that they'd have killed you before you got to warp. But lying is fun too. If you ever need a replacement 500m badger II, I'll sell you one for 450m - its a steal, 10% off.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:27:00 - [104] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Raquel Smith I play this game to have fun. Fun does not involve losing 100 million ISK in cargo, or 500 million ISK in ships and fittings and implants. I actually got a strange sense of enjoyment when I denied Red Alliance a chance to pop a badger 2. I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games. Thats nice. You managed to log a badger against a few frigates/single interdictor and you think youre special. It was a little more substantial than that, but thanks for playing! My cargo made it to its destination after a slight delay. I have no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact I would encourage everyone to use it. I don't feel bad at all about logging out in a "PVP game" since I'm not playing this game (now) to PVP. How unfortunate you couldn't obtain the same result through skill or using your wits... oh wait, you could have if you possessed either. Man, they are coming out of the woodwork tonight.
Olgzr	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:43:00 - [105] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Raquel Smith I play this game to have fun. Fun does not involve losing 100 million ISK in cargo, or 500 million ISK in ships and fittings and implants. I actually got a strange sense of enjoyment when I denied Red Alliance a chance to pop a badger 2. I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games. Thats nice. You managed to log a badger against a few frigates/single interdictor and you think youre special. It was a little more substantial than that, but thanks for playing! My cargo made it to its destination after a slight delay. I have no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact I would encourage everyone to use it. I don't feel bad at all about logging out in a "PVP game" since I'm not playing this game (now) to PVP. Hopefully next time your caught they will have the firepower to instapop you before you have the chance to cheat.
Marnix Gallente Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:47:00 - [106] Nyxus, i completely agree with a permanent 15minute timer, with a single exception. Logging off at a POS should either give you a 1 minute timer, or not warp you away from the POS shield. That is how the feature was advertised, btw. Stay the fck away from my sig, thx.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.10.10 20:51:00 - [107] It's not an exploit because they can't detect if someone disconnects from the internet, or their EVE client has crashed, or if they just hit the big ol' X in the top right hand corner. --- Cache Clearer Still waiting for a Wrangler-edit!
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.10 21:03:00 - [108] "Gates are not "spawn points". You choose to either go or not go a particular route, and you have tools in game to determine whether or not its a good idea." Uhm really your getting into semantics, to be honest gates are INFACT SPAWN POINTS. When I change systems where does my character appear in the new system? Ah yes a gate, so that is where my character SPAWNS in that system. No different than in a game like lineage2 which has NPC that can teleport you to different locations the location you apprear in after teleported is where you SPAWNED. It is a fixed point that people can know with 100% certainty you will appear at, which you have ZERO idea what will be there when you load in. IE any time you load into an area you spawned. The fact you get the choice of gates to use makes no difference to the FACT you spawn on that gate when you load into the system. Let's stop being silly, we all know why gates are camped, they are EASY because people who play by the rules spawn in blind and are thus DEAD on ARRIVAL, they are SAFE you can create effective gate camps that have extrmely low risk. It is a cheap exploit of game mechanics being camping spawn points. sure logging out of a bubble is cheap, but no cheaper than using alts to scout, or camping gates period. The true answer lies in CCP removing the ease and safety of camping spawn points AKA camping gates. Most games deal with this by implementing PVP immunity timers so that poeple can see the spawn point is camped and use the immunity to turn back or get away, for whatever reason CCP choose to make your ship cloaked which turns out NOT to be effective espcially with the addition of bubbles, all cloaking allows is for you to load in and get ganked lag free.
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.10.10 21:04:00 - [109] he that knows fear has nothing to lose ! he that knows hate has everything to gain ! lol are you guys still on this.... yarrn i don't like zonecamping(gatecamping) but however it's intented BS from ccp so it's not exploit or breaking of any game rules ! i still don't like zonecamping,,, however logg off tactic to prevent loss to a game feature(the lame zonecamping) is ofcause an exploit ! we been through this already, we all know this !, some just don't care that's all !
Sonlatur Minmatar Matari Raiders	Posted - 2006.10.10 21:20:00 - [110] Edited by: Sonlatur on 10/10/2006 21:20:32 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 sure logging out of a bubble is cheap, but no cheaper than using alts to scout, or camping gates period. I kind of agree. It is a problem that you can ALWAYS scan for hostiles, except when jumping into a new system. Where you are toast (if you dont log off) if there is a camp. I think what they should do is -make you jump to a random point in the system (increasing safety when jumping into the unknown) -and remove instas (decreasing security when you jump to a gate that you would be able to scan anyways). But people got used to instas and expect to always being able to cross a gate, so . -- "Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible."

Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.10 21:26:00 - [111] "i don't like zonecamping(gatecamping) but however it's intented BS from ccp so it's not exploit or breaking of any game rules !" Right but clearly right now the same can be said for logging out of a bubble, since CCP has repeatedly said logging when ever you want is not an exploit, the fact there is no log out timer shows it was intended BS :) Now these things always change so I would expect someday that logging when in a bubble might still result in being warp scrambled, but i also expect someday CCP will make changes to also change the intended BS that is gate camping :)
Xordus Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.10 21:32:00 - [112] I'm sorry but if you log in a bubble it is your own fault for being there. Even if it is a connection failure, you are the one that piloted into the bubble to be caught. The fact that logging out while in a bubble negates the effects of said bubble basically forces everyone to do just that. I refuse to log on principle but everyday I see it happen over and over, more and more. Frustration is building as this will not end until CCP fixes it. It will just get to the point that its a completlely accepted practice. "You get caught in a bubble? Why didn't you just log out?" If this is how CCP intends things to be, I do not want to be a part of EVE any longer. If it is something they will be finding a solution for, fine, I have patience, but I've seen nothing yet that even categorizes this as a problem. Xordus
Bjoern Bitter Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.10 21:55:00 - [113] Edited by: Bjoern Bitter on 10/10/2006 22:01:18 For all the people whinging about gatecamps: 1) this is a team game. get a scout. 2) in the absence of a scout - make a trial account and use a n00b character in a shuttle to scout your way. 3) not willing to run 2 accounts or get a buddy to scout? hire a capital ship pilot to cyno your goods in and bypass all the gate camps Travelling safely in 0.0 simply requires a bit of teamwork / planning / patience and should not require using lame exploits to "save your ship / cargo". If a pilot gets caught in a bubble, the sensible thing to do is to kill as many of the attackers as possible before going down. Fighting for a way out is honourable. Logging off and using out-of-game tactics is simply not acceptable behaviour. Once both sides do that it ends up being a game of soccer with no nets - neither team gets to "score". ------------- Bjoern Bitter CEO Dragons of Redemption -V- High Council -V- Logistics Officer
Sonlatur Minmatar Matari Raiders	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:05:00 - [114] Originally by: Bjoern Bitter 2) in the absence of a scout - make a trial account and use a n00b character in a shuttle to scout your way. [...] If a pilot gets caught in a bubble, the sensible thing to do is to kill as many of the attackers as possible before going down. Fighting for a way out is honourable. Logging off and using out-of-game tactics is simply not acceptable behaviour. Using an alt scout isnt less of an out of game tactic actually. It is poor game design if this is required (not saying that you should always be able to travel 00 safely). -- "Greetings fellow pod pilot. I am Sonlatur of the Sebiestor tribe and you have become a target in my war against the Evil Amarr Empire. Ransom negotiations are possible."
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:05:00 - [115] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 What CCP needs the balls to fix id the lame mechanic of camp camping they introduced. It is weak and pathetic tactic that is shunned upon in most every other game. They caved in and made 0.0 ultra carebear land for those established out there. It shouldnt be that way 0.0 should be risky and dangerous for all not just the few willing to explore. Right now there is far too many advantages and sdafety nets for those supposedly claiming space, allowing them to reside in the space they control with too much safety, and controlling far mroe space that they deserve to hold simply due to poor design creating severe choke points. Sooner they grow a pair and remove this the soioner logging out of a gate camp will dissappear, and the sooner people will truly have to learn to be organised and handle real pvp. How is chasing someone, then catching them at a gate, a gate camp? Answer - its not, you just liek troll because you can't figure out how to play eve out side of .9 space.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:06:00 - [116] Originally by: Lord Draco How is chasing someone, then catching them at a gate, a gate camp? Answer - its not, you just liek troll because you can't figure out how to play eve out side of .9 space. Honestly, hes so absurd I really think he's just some Pirate Coalition alt taking the ****. There's almost no way he could be serious and he could manage to put his pants on in the morning.
Afonso Henriques Minmatar Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:23:00 - [117] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 10/10/2006 18:25:22 "Amazing how anyone can justify logging in a bubble to save their ship." I would say it is no more amazing then how people justify gate camping as some sort of pvp of territory defense. It is the msot low life form of PVP, and most every other game out there severely frowns upon it for that reason. CCP needs to get moving and make the changes needed to remove gate camping period. I mean you goto understand gate camping is just a form of spawn camping which is TERRIBLE excuse for PVP and is considered an exploit is most every other game because once you camp a spawn point correctly everyone who spawns ends up with near certain death. With each post you make, you get more and more clueless. You clearly have no idea how to play this game. Every post is a gate-camp whine. Don;t like the camp? Go around or stfu a;ready.
Afonso Henriques Minmatar Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:24:00 - [118] Originally by: Raquel Smith Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Raquel Smith I play this game to have fun. Fun does not involve losing 100 million ISK in cargo, or 500 million ISK in ships and fittings and implants. I actually got a strange sense of enjoyment when I denied Red Alliance a chance to pop a badger 2. I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games. Thats nice. You managed to log a badger against a few frigates/single interdictor and you think youre special. It was a little more substantial than that, but thanks for playing! My cargo made it to its destination after a slight delay. I have no regrets and would do it again in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact I would encourage everyone to use it. I don't feel bad at all about logging out in a "PVP game" since I'm not playing this game (now) to PVP. All ccp needs to do is read this post. Once they see your post and others like it, you can bet your ass they will fix it. So, thank you for your post.
Lord Draco Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:25:00 - [119] Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: Lord Draco How is chasing someone, then catching them at a gate, a gate camp? Answer - its not, you just liek troll because you can't figure out how to play eve out side of .9 space. Honestly, hes so absurd I really think he's just some Pirate Coalition alt taking the ****. There's almost no way he could be serious and he could manage to put his pants on in the morning. lol, you're probably right.
Scoundrelus Unseen Jihad	Posted - 2006.10.10 22:45:00 - [120] Game Mechanics. To be honest I don't even see why you care, it's not like you get any profit from killing pods. =============================================== We are Watching You.



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