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Why, exactly, is logging in a bubble not an exploit?

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hydraSlav Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:28:00 - [61] Originally by: Kai Lae I realize that this has been covered before, but I've just had an in game "experience" that has brought the question back big time. I speak of logging inside a interdictor bubble or warp bubble. I just had an engagement against a TCF dominix piloted by oth4l4 where after a fairly long chase I managed with a corp mate to catch him on the entry gate to 3A1P-N, where before he jumped in I dumped a bubble on the gate. When he jumped into system myself and the taranis grabbed him instantly and double webbed him making it so he couldn't go anywhere. As soon as the calvary shows up in system to finish him off he logs out, and warps away, because he's running fully stabbed and it's extremely difficult to stop a ship like this from normal means. This is not unfortunately unusual these days, but what happened next took it to the extreme. In our gang jumping into the system was a cov ops and we then proceeded to probe him down. However, what he did was then to log in, and before the screen would load he'd log out again. This would then warp him to another, different safespot 1m km from the other spot he just logged in from. He then proceeded to repeat this about 30 more times, each time logging in and out before a scan result could be recieved. After 15 minutes his timer then expired and I'm sure he was laughing his posterior off as he then stayed logged out as his ship dissapeared from the scanner. My understanding had been doing this would cause you to reset your timer each time you log and therefore this would not work. I was unfortunately wrong. The problem with this is that there is literally nothing that can be done to counter this lame tactic. It's a "I win" button in eve. All it takes is a individual with no personal honor or sense of sportsmanship and they can't be stopped. We of course petitioned this and the response from CCP was that this is a perfectly valid tactic that is allowed under the game's term of service. The question I'd like to know, why is it possible to log out from a bubble and warp away, but not possible to escape scrambling? Aside from the totally disgusting personal behavior of this individual, why do game mechanics as currently constituted exist in this manner? The current situation actually encourages this behavior, because there is no consequences to it and it is 100% effective. CCP needs to address this because frankly it's causing an enormous amount of fustration in 0.0 combat as this becomes more and more common. The current situation is a sad state of affairs which places a black mark on the game of eve, where someone can use out of game "tactics" to counter superior, in game tactics. I sincerely hope that CCP will do something about this in the near future but I'm afraid it will require people insisting that CCP do something to actually address this issue. This is outrageous! If this is not an obvious meta-gaming exploit, i dont know what is . And even if "CCP cannot dictate when people can or cannot log off", CCP CAN dictate whether a ship warps out of a bubble or not. FIX FFS! =================================== Above comments are my personal views, and do not represent my corporation or alliance, unless otherwise indicated
Ellandrian D'Amerathe	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:48:00 - [62] Quote: Despite the server being theorically able to make the distinction between the client aborting (crashing or whatever) and a normal application shutdown by checking for a specific feedback (which obviously only could be sent & received when the application terminates normally), you still would not solve the problem of people ordering the operating system to abort the client (via the task manager for example). Wow, I had to read this twice to realize I actually agreed with you, on first glance I read this as another person thinking that some sort of coding could provide a magic wand to determine the nature of a client disconnect. This guy is absolutely on the mark, there are too many ways to simulate a client crash for any sort of coding solution to ever be effective. Supposing eventually a way to detect an end task being sent from task manager were developed, folks could just pull the plug on their router and simulate a network outage. Just pulling a DOS box and typing "ipconfig /release" (could also make a handy, clicky, shortcut) would appear to all the outside world as an actual failure instead of exiting the program. FYI, not in a bubble, not scrambled, totally different scenario, on an alt during a mission last night, I crashed 5 times in a row on a machine that never crashes Eve. It would have looked like I logged back on and off multiple times, I never even made it fully back from the emergency warp. It would annoy me greatly to lose a ship during such a scenario, which was also experienced by two other people in my corp, in entirely different regions.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:49:00 - [63] 1) A bubble won't stop you from warping out if you get dumped or log out. 2) Being Webbed won't stop you from warping out if you get dumped or log out. *** 3) Being Warp SCRAMBLED will stop you from warping out if you get dumped or log out. Simple fix: As soon as you lock, scramble, don't just web and trust your bubble. Even a 1 point scramble will stop instawarp. That said I don't really blame people who use the disconnect/logout "tactic" (which I personally won't use) because when you drop in and suddenly realize you're in a bubble there's really nothing you can do but die. And that's just not fun. And, after all, they're paying just as much as you are to have fun. So until CCP fixes the in-game mechanism allowing players to do this you're just going to have to suck it up and deal with link droppers. Bottom line: It's a feature of the game. CCP has not ruled it an exploit so people WILL use it. Oh, and, by the way: Continuing to gripe about it on the forums only makes sure more and more people learn about it faster so that they can use it too.
Kal'Kalagan Takahashi Syndicate Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.10 14:52:00 - [64] I was about to write a post on this exact same thing! 2 Hostile Raven pilots jumped into our camp within 10 minutes of each other last night. Both logged while cloaked to save their hides. I petitioned the incident immediately and the GMs said that logging in and out was not an exploit. I think that this basic view of the issue os damaging to the game. Logging while cloaked to save a pilots battleship from his own stupidity of not using a scout is in my opinion a bug that needs to be fixed ASAP!
Kal'Kalagan Takahashi Syndicate Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:09:00 - [65] Sorry for double post but I think that the more of us who complain about the loophole in the game mechanics the more likely CCP are to address it. Just keeping quiet about it in the hope that as few pilots as possible catch on is not the way to go!
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:10:00 - [66] Bubbles should catch all warps, period. There should be a 15 minute timer on your ship EVERY time you log off in space. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Crash in a mission? No change. Logging off because you are tired? No change. Logging off because you are trying to hide? You are screwed. Wouldn't fix it entirely, but it would help a lot. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
katz3 moon7empler Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:11:00 - [67] CCP should fix it. Logging off inside a bubble is kinda lame
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:12:00 - [68] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail It makes no difference if the disconnect was real or faked or a logoff. If your in a bubble or scrammed by a player then your ship shouldn't go anywhere. If your ship gets agressed by a player at any time then it gets the 15 minute timer. It sucks to lose a connection and lose a ship but so many people abuse this bug that it's time to stop it. NOTE: If you are Scrambled you don't warp off. Tested this several times.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:29:00 - [69] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 10/10/2006 15:30:28 Originally by: Nyxus Bubbles should catch all warps, period. There should be a 15 minute timer on your ship EVERY time you log off in space. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Crash in a mission? No change. Logging off because you are tired? No change. Logging off because you are trying to hide? You are screwed. Wouldn't fix it entirely, but it would help a lot. Nyxus Riiiight so if I log off, legitimately, my ship should sit there in space for 15 minutes, even though I've done nothing wrong, so high sec suicide squads can probe me and destroy me (or just destroy me if I'm at a gate) and get my things. Or if I crash in a mission, I should just lose my ship? Nevermind the fact that the servers are in europe and disconnects are not at all uncommon with the EVE clients from the US? Sorry, problem NOT solved. I personally have NEVER used the disconnect/logout tactic. I don't see why I should be penalized for playing within both the rules AND the mechanics just so you have an easier time ganking some poor SOB who was unfortunate enough to land in your damn bubble. Simple fix is this: CCP sets it so you don't warp out of a bubble when when you "log out" but will if you "Crash/disconnect unexpectedly". Sure this leaves a hole for people to 'cut the cord' to get away but it would reduce the phenomena a bit. What you people are proposing affects every single player in the game. Which is unfair. Which is probably why CCP has ignored you about it. You want it to be easier to kill people. The people avoiding you just want to play the game without getting ganked by a bunch of people with nothing better to do than camp a gate for the sheer joy of blowing some lone weak pilot up the second they jump in under your guns. Get over yourselves. The needs of the few do not outweigh the needs of the many. I personally have never used the log out tactic to get away. Even though I know about it. I don't find it honorable. Then again I don't find pirates using bubbles to make it easier for them to kill helpless pilots all that honorable either so my sympathy level is kind of low in this regard. I do think they should prevent people who log out inside a bubble from warping away though. THAT would be fair. But not legitimate disconnects. And it's very easy to just prevent anyone from warping who is sending the 'logout' signal instead of just vanishing. The next question would be: Does the client even send anything to the server when it logs out? If it doesn't then they need to patch the logout process so that it does. But preventing people who legitimately crashed from instawarping is unfair. Likewise preventing people who are logging out normally from being able to do so safely is also unfair. But I'm sure you'd love to have thousands of ships sitting around in space for 15 minutes so you can probe and pop them while they're utterly defenseless. Which is exactly what would happen if what you propose were done.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:43:00 - [70] Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 10/10/2006 15:30:28 Originally by: Nyxus Bubbles should catch all warps, period. There should be a 15 minute timer on your ship EVERY time you log off in space. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Crash in a mission? No change. Logging off because you are tired? No change. Logging off because you are trying to hide? You are screwed. Wouldn't fix it entirely, but it would help a lot. Nyxus Riiiight so if I log off, legitimately, my ship should sit there in space for 15 minutes, even though I've done nothing wrong, so high sec suicide squads can probe me and destroy me (or just destroy me if I'm at a gate) and get my things. Or if I crash in a mission, I should just lose my ship? Nevermind the fact that the servers are in europe and disconnects are not at all uncommon with the EVE clients from the US? Sorry, problem NOT solved. I personally have NEVER used the disconnect/logout tactic. I don't see why I should be penalized for playing within both the rules AND the mechanics just so you have an easier time ganking some poor SOB who was unfortunate enough to land in your damn bubble. Simple fix is this: CCP sets it so you don't warp out of a bubble when when you "log out" but will if you "Crash/disconnect unexpectedly". Sure this leaves a hole for people to 'cut the cord' to get away but it would reduce the phenomena a bit. What you people are proposing affects every single player in the game. Which is unfair. Which is probably why CCP has ignored you about it. You want it to be easier to kill people. The people avoiding you just want to play the game without getting ganked by a bunch of people with nothing better to do than camp a gate for the sheer joy of blowing some lone weak pilot up the second they jump in under your guns. Get over yourselves. The needs of the few do not outweigh the needs of the many. I personally have never used the log out tactic to get away. Even though I know about it. I don't find it honorable. Then again I don't find pirates using bubbles to make it easier for them to kill helpless pilots all that honorable either so my sympathy level is kind of low in this regard. I do think they should prevent people who log out inside a bubble from warping away though. THAT would be fair. But not legitimate disconnects. And it's very easy to just prevent anyone from warping who is sending the 'logout' signal instead of just vanishing. The next question would be: Does the client even send anything to the server when it logs out? If it doesn't then they need to patch the logout process so that it does. But preventing people who legitimately crashed from instawarping is unfair. Likewise preventing people who are logging out normally from being able to do so safely is also unfair. But I'm sure you'd love to have thousands of ships sitting around in space for 15 minutes so you can probe and pop them while they're utterly defenseless. Which is exactly what would happen if what you propose were done. While I don't subscribe to the notion of a 15 minute time for every log off, you are misinformed and not thinking this through. 1: Currently there is no way to distinguish between a crash and simply pulling the plug on the modem or computer. People that use these tactics would not hesitate to do this if they can not normally log off. Another method of making this behavior counter-productive needs to be implemented. 2: While bubble camps can be used by pirates in 0.0, the truth is that the vast majority of pirates live in low security systems, and therefore can not use bubbles. Pirates are usually ousted from 0.0 by the alliance that controls that space. This is a misconception that you need to be aware of. 3: In this incident, the alliance in question was defending their territory from a tresspasser. Good strategy was used to get ahead of him, lame tactics made it futile.

Mark Weston Caldari The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Tiny Tove Edited by: Tiny Tove on 10/10/2006 14:19:33 But they are demanding that logging off guarantees a certain death. I level the same charge at you. Utter nonsense. No they are not. They are demanding that logging off should not allow an escape from certain death. I've read this thread quite carefully and I've seen no demand that a ship that logs off should instantly explode. Quote: (Don't tell Camplacency that I said this) I'm not actually against logging in or out. It would be fine if it was --impossible-- to EVER log out, and you remain where you were until you run out structure/pod, or you log back in. What I am against is people wanting all the cake and eating all of it, and crying a lot when nobody brings them more cake. I read a lot of the stuff. For most of it, I don't respond to, because there are people who know a lot more about it than I do, let them argue it out. As far as I can tell the "you can get past camps" argument is flawed, because although, yes you can, you probably CAN'T in the ship that you currently need to get past the camp. So the "I Win Button" arguement does apply. To compound it, the number of ships that have a very high chance of passing a camp are builds that are generally only any good for passing a camp, but not for achieving anything else you may wish to get done that evening, so the idea that I either a) achieve nothing tonight or b) lose my ship and achieve nothing tonight is not the sort of prospect I should be forced into. It's silly to argue that these are the only two alternatives open to you. Maybe you'll have to do something else that evening instead. Just because it wasn't originally what you planned, doesn't mean it isn't fun. Or maybe you and your friends can get together and break up the camp. Lots of fun there. One of the inevitable side-effects of playing a PvP game is that other players (especially if they have numbers and organisation) will always be able to limit the options available to you. Changing the mechanics of warp disruptors or interdictors isn't actually going to modify that basic fact. Other players will sometimes frustrate your plans. What are you going to do about it? Quote: Coupled again with the fact that camps are too often emlpoyed for collecting kill mails, rather than defending territory which I would agree "is not lame", it makes gate camping way too much of a problem to start making concessions to campers, and Eve is the only place I know of where campers have any support or following, every other game they are villified Hopefully CCP make a sensible decision on it. The current "it's not an exploit" is just a fluff as they're probably too busy to look at it right now. But in the end, I would hope for, no bubbles at gates you don't hold territorial claims over + stop logwarps on bubbles, but if they make it so a miner can't stop mining if I steal his jet can, the step too far would be complete. Sadly the people who enjoy carebear camping are asking for too much, and every effort should be made to resist them, and being extreme in the opposite direction hopefully causes a balance in the minds of the very people who are going to address the problem. I don't agree with your dislike of camping, but that's a separate issue anyway. Resorting to metagimng and exploiting bugs is a childish and pointless way to play. No objection to other current game mechanics justifies it. Abuse of the rules in an SP game is your own afair. Abuse of the rules in a game with other people is an abuse of those other people; it's antisocial behaviour. New to EVE? Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:57:00 - [72] So much crying. Best solution is make players understand the harshness of space. 1. You can instant "log-out" safely in stations and POS. Anywhere else, your ship/pod will stay persistent. 2. Cooldown logout timer. 5 minutes to cooldown, cap reaching 0, weapons slowly offline before disappearing. Log back in space will take 5 minutes to warm up. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
Lesferath	Posted - 2006.10.10 15:57:00 - [73] Edited by: Lesferath on 10/10/2006 15:57:43 Originally by: Ranger 1 1: Currently there is no way to distinguish between a crash and simply pulling the plug on the modem or computer. People that use these tactics would not hesitate to do this if they can not normally log off. Another method of making this behavior counter-productive needs to be implemented. Are you sure 'bout this? Afaik if you disconnect you remain in space for 30 seconds before the server realizes you are gone and will then warp away. If you log out (CTRL+Q) you will instantly warp out. That's the biggest issue here, it does not help the ppl that disconnect but only the "exploiters". Just put a 30 sec timer on log out as well - FIXED
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.10 16:08:00 - [74] Originally by: Taram Caldar Originally by: Ozzie Asrail It makes no difference if the disconnect was real or faked or a logoff. If your in a bubble or scrammed by a player then your ship shouldn't go anywhere. If your ship gets agressed by a player at any time then it gets the 15 minute timer. It sucks to lose a connection and lose a ship but so many people abuse this bug that it's time to stop it. NOTE: If you are Scrambled you don't warp off. Tested this several times. Yes and no. If your scrambled before you logout then yes, you stay scrambled. If your scrambled after you logout (for example logout wheile cloaked at jumpin) the your ship does not stay scrambled. Had this happen to me more than a few times. -----
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2006.10.10 16:10:00 - [75] Originally by: Mark Weston Originally by: Tiny Tove Edited by: Tiny Tove on 10/10/2006 14:19:33 But they are demanding that logging off guarantees a certain death. I level the same charge at you. Utter nonsense. No they are not. They are demanding that logging off should not allow an escape from certain death. I've read this thread quite carefully and I've seen no demand that a ship that logs off should instantly explode. That's not what I said, as well you know. But you know what? You've convinced me. I am a convert. I now love camping and hope they make it impossible to evade them. Good Day.
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.10.10 16:10:00 - [76] Logging out can never be an exploit because CCP can't tell the difference between a logout and a disconnect (and if they could, people would just pull the plug...) The only solution is to make bubbles work they way they were intended. I filed a bug report at least 5 months ago. Get on it you bastards. Shamis
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.10 16:11:00 - [77] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Taram Caldar Edited by: Taram Caldar on 10/10/2006 15:30:28 Originally by: Nyxus Bubbles should catch all warps, period. There should be a 15 minute timer on your ship EVERY time you log off in space. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Crash in a mission? No change. Logging off because you are tired? No change. Logging off because you are trying to hide? You are screwed. Wouldn't fix it entirely, but it would help a lot. Nyxus Riiiight so if I log off, legitimately, my ship should sit there in space for 15 minutes, even though I've done nothing wrong, so high sec suicide squads can probe me and destroy me (or just destroy me if I'm at a gate) and get my things. Or if I crash in a mission, I should just lose my ship? Nevermind the fact that the servers are in europe and disconnects are not at all uncommon with the EVE clients from the US? Sorry, problem NOT solved. While I don't subscribe to the notion of a 15 minute time for every log off, you are misinformed and not thinking this through. 1: Currently there is no way to distinguish between a crash and simply pulling the plug on the modem or computer. People that use these tactics would not hesitate to do this if they can not normally log off. Another method of making this behavior counter-productive needs to be implemented. 2: While bubble camps can be used by pirates in 0.0, the truth is that the vast majority of pirates live in low security systems, and therefore can not use bubbles. Pirates are usually ousted from 0.0 by the alliance that controls that space. This is a misconception that you need to be aware of. 3: In this incident, the alliance in question was defending their territory from a tresspasser. Good strategy was used to get ahead of him, lame tactics made it futile. I agree with most of what you're saying(but there absolutely are pirate groups that use bubble camps exactly for the purposes I mentioned, they are NOT just used for empire defenses). Heck, I'd even buy off on just making bubbles prevent warping altogether, regardless of disconnect status. Scramblers already do (as long as you actually get the scramble in before the server detects the disconnect)
xHoodx The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.10 16:40:00 - [78] Originally by: Fubear At the end of the day, I still have my ship, fittings, and cargo while you lose it all and end up starting at the clone bay walls. Overall I come out ahead. I am not a shining internet space knight bound by a code of e-honour. Faced with the choice between fighthing a futile battle and dying, or escaping with my ship intact, I choose the latter. How about taking responsibility for your mistake and take it like a man? You might even have some fun along the way. Not all camps are 30 ppl with EW coming out of their rear ends.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 17:15:00 - [79] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/10/2006 17:15:49 Originally by: Tiny Tove Originally by: Mark Weston Originally by: Tiny Tove Edited by: Tiny Tove on 10/10/2006 14:19:33 But they are demanding that logging off guarantees a certain death. I level the same charge at you. Utter nonsense. No they are not. They are demanding that logging off should not allow an escape from certain death. I've read this thread quite carefully and I've seen no demand that a ship that logs off should instantly explode. That's not what I said, as well you know. But you know what? You've convinced me. I am a convert. I now love camping and hope they make it impossible to evade them. Good Day. Camps are far from impossible to evade, in fact the ability to evade a gate camp is heavily weighted in favor of the potential victim. We simply would like the ability to CIRCUMVENT a legitamate and neccessary game mechanic to be dealt with in a fair and even handed manner. Logging off in a game should never be a best, or even a good option. The person can, of course, log off while jumping through a gate (as most freighter pilots do to ensure invulnerability)... but I really do think a mandatory pause between log in attempts is a fair way to prevent the exploitive behavior outlined above. It does not penalize the person that looses connection, but it makes it much less effective to continually log in and out if hotly pursued.
Christos Hendez The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.10 17:49:00 - [80] Amazing how anyone can justify logging in a bubble to save their ship. For those that are trying to justify this then why are you playing this type of game? Eve IS risk versus reward in every format of pvp (all types). If you can't handle the loss then you need to totally rethink why you are playing. I would also say that these bubbles have been introduced by CCP, not by some random so called griefer and can only be used in 0.0. Which implies that CCP want people to get stuck in these bubbles. No arguing can get away from that fact. Fight your way out or die trying, that's eve. I'm sure CCP are working on a fix for this, but I would say they have a few rather larger issues going on. p.s Gonada maybe 0.0 isn't for you, as you seem to want a no loose senario for yourself. Try sticking to empire as their are no CCP introduced bubbles there

Marcus Alkhaar Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.10.10 18:01:00 - [81] cant CCP just make people able to login 5 times every 1? 2? 3? 4? 5 minute? and make a lame excuse that you're using to much of the server load bla bla bla and make buble agress or something like that (it prevents the campers to jump in and log off too ) this is all for 0.0 though - dont know what you do in low sec... sit and watch?
Olgzr	Posted - 2006.10.10 18:12:00 - [82] If your ship is caught in a bubble it should not warp if you log off. It should be an exploit. The excuse that "what if I really ctd" is also lame for several reasons. Out of all the hours that you play, how much time is spent in a bubble. What are the odds that in those few seconds you disconnect? Even if you do have a legit ctd you would probably have lost the ship anyway. As for those who say thay will quit if ccp makes it an exploit or "fixes" it..good, the game is better off without people like you. CCP should consider how many accounts they lose anyway, by people that are frustrated by crap like this.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.10.10 18:24:00 - [83] Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 10/10/2006 18:25:22 "Amazing how anyone can justify logging in a bubble to save their ship." I would say it is no more amazing then how people justify gate camping as some sort of pvp of territory defense. It is the msot low life form of PVP, and most every other game out there severely frowns upon it for that reason. CCP needs to get moving and make the changes needed to remove gate camping period. I mean you goto understand gate camping is just a form of spawn camping which is TERRIBLE excuse for PVP and is considered an exploit is most every other game because once you camp a spawn point correctly everyone who spawns ends up with near certain death.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.10 18:36:00 - [84] Edited by: Ranger 1 on 10/10/2006 18:39:04 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 10/10/2006 18:25:22 "Amazing how anyone can justify logging in a bubble to save their ship." I would say it is no more amazing then how people justify gate camping as some sort of pvp of territory defense. It is the msot low life form of PVP, and most every other game out there severely frowns upon it for that reason. CCP needs to get moving and make the changes needed to remove gate camping period. I mean you goto understand gate camping is just a form of spawn camping which is TERRIBLE excuse for PVP and is considered an exploit is most every other game because once you camp a spawn point correctly everyone who spawns ends up with near certain death. Gates are not "spawn points". You choose to either go or not go a particular route, and you have tools in game to determine whether or not its a good idea. The only "spawn points" in EVE are stations, of which there are several thousand to pick and choose from. And if you happen to get camped in a station it's nearly impossible to get killed before you can redock, or if you have prepared properly you can simply jump clone to a different station. Additionally, the episode in question has nothing to do with a gate camp. Even if it did, how do you propose that an alliance control entrance into territory that they claim? You've completely missed the point.
Eve Hel	Posted - 2006.10.10 18:47:00 - [85] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Edited by: Nanobotter Mk2 on 10/10/2006 18:25:22 "Amazing how anyone can justify logging in a bubble to save their ship." I would say it is no more amazing then how people justify gate camping as some sort of pvp of territory defense. It is the msot low life form of PVP, and most every other game out there severely frowns upon it for that reason. CCP needs to get moving and make the changes needed to remove gate camping period. I mean you goto understand gate camping is just a form of spawn camping which is TERRIBLE excuse for PVP and is considered an exploit is most every other game because once you camp a spawn point correctly everyone who spawns ends up with near certain death. Gates are not "spawn points". You choose to either go or not go a particular route, and you have tools in game to determine whether or not its a good idea. Additionally, the episode in question has nothing to do with a gate camp. Even if it did, how do you propose that an alliance control entrance into territory that they claim? You've completely missed the point. correct they are not spawn points,, however they are zone in zones which is practicly the same, and as for the tools yes they help alot to see if its a good idea to "zone in" the problem with this however is that in many situations this means you can get nowere or risk the surtent death haha which is kinda crap feature, but thats another discustion agree this post is not directly about gate camps, however the above problem is the rod for the problem is this post ! both is a problem but you can't fix only 1 doesn't work that way. for the territory claim thing... thats easy its been sayd before... haha by me... boubbles should simple only work in a system that you have a territory claim over ! very simple actually. beside that, yes ofcause log off tactics is a exploit of a broken game mechanic. however the boubbles are a lame rediceless game feature inprinted by ccp ofcause its a valid game tactics cause ccp say soo ! however just because ccp says soo doesn't make it a good feature, infact its the lamest game feature i have seen in all my PC life. rather you hardcore pvp'er or pirates like it or not the fact is that this whole problem is a 2sided problem theirs not a single fix that can fix it !,,, atlest 2 fixes are required to fix it.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:03:00 - [86] Edited by: Plutoinum on 10/10/2006 19:04:48 To be honest I give a fu** about the risk to cdt in a bubble. Get real ! How often do you cdt in small gangs after jumping through a gate ? How often is there a bubble exactly at that gate ? How often are you not that outnumbered in that case that it makes a difference, if you could fight, have a cdt or just commit suicide ? The bug should be fixed. Someone, who logs in a bubble should die, because that's what usually would happen anyway. The tiny chance that a cdt might happen that really has an impact on the outcome is too low to allow people to further exploit this game mechanics. And if you want to log, then do it where you are safe or expect to die. It's imho as simple as this.
Raquel Smith Caldari Ferengi Commerce Authority	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:08:00 - [87] Originally by: Christos Hendez Amazing how anyone can justify logging in a bubble to save their ship. For those that are trying to justify this then why are you playing this type of game? Eve IS risk versus reward in every format of pvp (all types). I play this game to have fun. Fun does not involve losing 100 million ISK in cargo, or 500 million ISK in ships and fittings and implants. I actually got a strange sense of enjoyment when I denied Red Alliance a chance to pop a badger 2. I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Raquel Smith I play this game to have fun. Fun does not involve losing 100 million ISK in cargo, or 500 million ISK in ships and fittings and implants. I actually got a strange sense of enjoyment when I denied Red Alliance a chance to pop a badger 2. I always love(d) evading wannabe PKs in games. Thats nice. You managed to log a badger against a few frigates/single interdictor and you think youre special. I get it - nobody wants to think of themselves as incompetent and pathetic. The logging bugs, both the PvP flag not starting after you log, and the bubble failures, need to be fixed. They've needed to be fixed for a very long time. I dont care that people on a gate will now be able to kill you if youre incompetent and you fly into them like a suicidal hummingbird. I particularly dont care if youre flying around with a (faction?) fit badger worth 500m. Its a bug, it needs to get fixed. There is no possible defense of it as anything but a bug. At least most of the people are defending their use of it as "well, as long as its here I'm going to exploit the hell out of it", which is lame, but not idiotic like "OMG GATECAMPZ R T3H SUK".
Nira Li Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:29:00 - [89] Ppl who log in combat are ppl that never will be succesfull in eve and they only log becasue they suck and can't comprehend a loss in a game. You Will Cry My Name
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2006.10.10 19:39:00 - [90] The first topics on this matter are roughly one year old, now it's a feature. Eve would be better off if logging off did not give you super power , but since it's so widespread at the moment, you'd be stupid to not do it. So let's hope this bug get enough attention and gets FINALY fixed after one year.



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