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ECM and ECCM experiment

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VengerZap The Devil's Rejects	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:11:00 - [1] I decided to do a quick experiment on how effective ECM and ECCM is. Using either a single tech1 Multi spec or a tech1 Racial I tried jamming an alt in a Megathron. I let the jammers run for 10 cycles each (200 seconds), recording when they jammed. I then repeated the exercise again with the Mega activating a ECCM module. The jammer char has signal dispersion lvl3. 1. Multi Spec against Megathron Megathron Signal Strength: 21 points. Multispec Strength 4.6 Cycle 1 Fail Cycle 2 Fail Cycle 3 Success Cycle 4 Fail Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Fail Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Fail Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate: 10% So far ECM isn't that scary, working only 1 in 10 isn't particularly overpowered. Let's try with racial. 2. Racial against Megathron Megathron Signal Strength: 21 points. Racial Strength 6.9 Cycle 1 Fail Cycle 2 Fail Cycle 3 Success Cycle 4 Fail Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Success Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Success Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate 30% As expected fitting racial jammers gives quite an improvement. On it's own, at 30% effectiveness a single racial jammer isn't particularly something to fear. So now let's try with the Mega using ECCM. 3. Multi Spec against Megathron using ECCM Megathron Signal Strength: 37 points. Multispec Strength 4.6 Cycle 1 Fail Cycle 2 Fail Cycle 3 Fail Cycle 4 Success Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Fail Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Fail Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate 10% So fitting an ECCM has had no effect against a Multispec 4. Racial against Megathron Megathron Signal Strength: 37 points. Racial Strength 6.9 Cycle 1 Success Cycle 2 Success Cycle 3 Fail Cycle 4 Fail Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Success Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Success Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate 40% Now this is confusing, during this round when fitting an ECCM module, the chances of being jammer have actually increased by 10%. (Yes, I did check I'd fitted the correct ECCM module.) What does all this mean? Well a single a ECM modules isn't as overpowered as perhaps alot of people think. However when 2-3 of them are used on a ship at once it's easy to see how devastating they can be, stripping a ship of all it's offensive abilities except for drones. And according to my crude experiment, ECCM is completely useless. I realized that this was just one experiment so I wouldn't take the results as any sort of final word on the effectiveness of ECM and ECCM.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:19:00 - [2] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/10/2006 14:19:09 Only making ten jam attempts will lead to all sorts of statistical anomalies. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:21:00 - [3] You should increase the tries, but I would have expected the number of jams to be much higher. At least they seem to work every time against me. :/ --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Taipan Gedscho Taipan Industries	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:23:00 - [4] does an eccm mod break the jam? so try to activate the eccm when youre jammed, and not before. -- Only you can save MMORPGS - Stop whining today!
DarkElf Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho does an eccm mod break the jam? so try to activate the eccm when youre jammed, and not before. no it does not break the jam, only increases ur chance of resisting it next cycle DE
VengerZap The Devil's Rejects	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim McGregor You should increase the tries, but I would have expected the number of jams to be much higher. At least they seem to work every time against me. :/ I was expecting the number of jams to be higher as well. Perhaps when you're jammed in a combat situation, getting shot to hell, the 20 seconds cycle seems alot longer. Or maybe I'm just no good at jamming.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:29:00 - [7] now do each test 1000 times and you might have some accurate results! Save Low-sec
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:36:00 - [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:36:00 - [9] Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. --- New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:42:00 - [10] Originally by: GC13 Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. I love when people talk dirty on the forums. _______________

DubanFP Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:45:00 - [11] Imperial probability is not an accurate way of telling the jam probebility, especially with only 10 jam cycles.
Idara Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:45:00 - [12] 30 trials per variable is the minimum you should do, or so that's what Biology has taught me.
Kenya Borgin	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:54:00 - [13] Edited by: Kenya Borgin on 11/10/2006 14:55:52 Edited by: Kenya Borgin on 11/10/2006 14:54:57 But since statistic stuff only is accurate when you do infinit number of tries, and since the random number generator (this really is not random) is an algorithm and not random at all...just appears to be random, you can not rely upon statistics.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:55:00 - [14] You're all wrong: When you absolutely have to jam that mofo, none of your attempts will succeed. No matter how many ships, with how many T2 ECMs trained on it. When you are holding the other end of the stick. A single T1 frig will jam the nads off of your T2 recon cruiser, whilst his corpmates laugh and take your last 20 remaining points of structure with their civilian railguns. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: GC13 Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. I love when people talk dirty on the forums. Reminds me of this bumper sticker somebody has on campus: "Talk nerdy to me." Now guys, I've realized just how little work I've done with binomial distributions, and the sample is too small to make this intro to stats book (why did I have to sell the Social Statistics book?) happy. Now go forth and bringeth me a hundred samples, and I'll see what I can do. (For anybody who's ever seen Invader Zim) "We guarantee we'll see what we can do." --- New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide.
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:07:00 - [16] Originally by: FireFoxx80 You're all wrong: When you absolutely have to jam that mofo, none of your attempts will succeed. No matter how many ships, with how many T2 ECMs trained on it. When you are holding the other end of the stick. A single T1 frig will jam the nads off of your T2 recon cruiser, whilst his corpmates laugh and take your last 20 remaining points of structure with their civilian railguns. Absolute Truth. ~I don't remember. That's the second thing they teach you.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Jim McGregor You should increase the tries, but I would have expected the number of jams to be much higher. At least they seem to work every time against me. :/ I will call that bad luck. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:28:00 - [18] Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant. I like pie! \o/ Because I said so...
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:36:00 - [21] Cyclone vs. Rook. Busted-ass Cyclone. Cyclone + ECCM vs. Rook. Busted-ass Rook. True story. ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Crellion Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:23:00 - [22] Actuallly ECCM is useless. An ECM has a chance of shutting down a target. An ECCM provides an equally valuable chance of resisting a jam. However an ECM can benefit the gang every single engagement and no matter who is primary on both sides. ECCM will only benefit if enemy is using EW and then only if you are the primary. So in a gang useless. Say you use it when you solo: Here it helps everytime the mofos have EW since ou will be the primary every time. However it doesnt help when they dont pack EW or when they pack serious EW. It only helps if they pack a multi or 2 or a single racial on a non-bonused ship. If they go for sensor dampening or target disrupting etc you waisted your slot. If you had fitted 1 multispec and they carry no EW you ll get some bemefit. If you have a multi and they carry damps and disrupts and stuff you might benefit. If they carry little EW you might benefit. if they carry loads of EW = no benefit. So solo v multiple useful in 1/4 whereas a multi would be usefull 3/4 In 1v1s If the guy is trying to get a small edge with 1 multi 1 ECCM will help a bit but you are wasting a slot each so no biggy. If he is carrying 2-3 multis or 1-2 racials then your ECCM might help a lot. If he is carrying no EW you wasted a slot. On the other hand 1 multi might help you if he is carrying no EW but will do nothing much for you if he is carrying more EW or ECCM... I ll call ECCM a mod of some value for 1v1s So in my own empirical and non-mathematical way of thinking ECCM useless unless if you are doing 1v1 with someone you expect to carry a couple of ECM mods. In every other conceivable situation its crap. The threads suggesting a qualified immunity but 100% of the time (like you can only lock 1 ship per activation of ECCM module for 20 secs and then your ECCM has to stay inactive for 15 secs etc) should have received more Dev attention. Meh...
Dario Wall Caldari Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:04:00 - [23] Doesn't ECM work something like: ECM strength / Ship Sensor strength = % Chance to jam So, if an ECCM module increases the sensor strength of the ship, it would lower the % chance of said ship getting jammed. Atleast, that's how I always thought it worked. Of course I could be wrong... All your sigs are belong to us - Xorus
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:36:00 - [24] Originally by: murder one I like pie! \o/ Thank you. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Ebedar Gallente Primary Intelligence	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:37:00 - [25] A while back I did 100 test jams against a Megathron using both multis and racials (that's 100 with each) and found, surprisingly enough, that they jammed about the number of times you would expect them to. Didn't get to test with ECCM though as the person I was doing the testing with had had enough by then and had curled up into a ball and started to cry. I keep him as a pet and let him out when the sun shines. ~ Balls > WCS
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:43:00 - [26] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 11/10/2006 18:45:38 Originally by: Crellion Actuallly ECCM is useless. An ECM has a chance of shutting down a target. An ECCM provides an equally valuable chance of resisting a jam. However an ECM can benefit the gang every single engagement and no matter who is primary on both sides. ECCM will only benefit if enemy is using EW and then only if you are the primary. So in a gang useless. That's a load of rubbish. By that logic, sensor damps, tracking disruptors, sensor boosters, half your hardeners, microwarpdrives and a load of other modules are useless too because they don't always apply to every single combat situation you get into. Don't cry about getting jammed if you're unwilling to dedicate a slot to the counter. That's like crying about an opponent's shields because you refuse to fit a weapon. Further, this is one of the reasons ECM is chance-based. While it CAN benefit you in every engagement, it won't in reality. You'll have plenty of engagements where it fails to jam completely. THAT means that ECM does not benefit you in every engagement, just like all the modules listed above.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Further, this is one of the reasons ECM is chance-based. While it CAN benefit you in every engagement, it won't in reality. You'll have plenty of engagements where it fails to jam completely. THAT means that ECM does not benefit you in every engagement, just like all the modules listed above. ECCM is in the end also only chance-based. That was his whole point. Compared to ECM ECCM is useless. It is far better to fit ECM instead you do not only have a chance to "resist" and ECM attack (by shutting down an enemy ship which could use ECM), but also help your gang (by shutting down a ship). ECCM is one wasted slot unless someone is using a jammer on you. ECM is more universally useful and typically offers you as much "protection". In a gang situation. Also, as a sidenote: ECCM has never and will never balance ECM (unless 1 ECCM = ECM immunity perhaps). The problem is that ECM is far stronger and universally useable than the other EW systems. Arbis and curse/pilgrim setups typically use rather ECM than tracking disruptores for a reason. When ECM + no shipbonus > other EW + shipbonus there might be a slight balancing problem.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Aramendel ECCM is in the end also only chance-based. That was his whole point. Compared to ECM ECCM is useless. It is far better to fit ECM instead you do not only have a chance to "resist" and ECM attack (by shutting down an enemy ship which could use ECM), but also help your gang (by shutting down a ship). ECCM is one wasted slot unless someone is using a jammer on you. ECM is more universally useful and typically offers you as much "protection". In a gang situation. You're cutting your own throat with that logic chain. If ECM is so universally useful that everyone should fit it, then ECCM becomes just as useful because it can be used in every engagement against multiple ECM modules.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:27:00 - [29] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 11/10/2006 19:29:07 The real fun is that ECCM was inexplicably given a stacking penalty (while ECM doesnt have one). I was actually playing with a domi that had 3 96% ECCMs and 3 48% backup arrays (I really hate getting jammed). That got its sensor strength cut by a factor of 3 in one patch. Apparently blowing 6 slots on ECCM means the chance of getting jammed should still be 25% a cycle against someone with half as many slots spent on ECM. The problem with ECCM is that in gangs youre much better off with more ECM, since that completely disables a target, and solo you need to pack an absurd amount, since a single jam means that your target warps. Either way, youre better off just crossing your fingers, throwing your d20, and hoping to get lucky. I'm so glad that ECM has really made PvP more about luck then skill. I was tired of the whole 'better pilot wins' thing. Still, until it gets fixed, every midslot after the first 2 on any ship I ever fly gets ECM (ECM rifter 4tw). Its sad, but effective.
Adoro Reunited	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: GC13 Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. I love when people talk dirty on the forums. I thought..."O NOES! A Dev replies to a ECM topic. READ READ READ...!!" And thats whay you say? I thought ECM was finally going to be nerfed... Better luck next time on my side -------- Bailian Moxtain: Quote: Who needs pride when there's isk to be made

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