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ECM and ECCM experiment

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Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Risien Drogonne You're cutting your own throat with that logic chain. If ECM is so universally useful that everyone should fit it, then ECCM becomes just as useful because it can be used in every engagement against multiple ECM modules. Only if you always be a target which gets ECM on it. Which won't happen in a gang situation (unless you are a scorpion or blackbird or something similar).
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:53:00 - [32] Originally by: Complacency's Bane Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 11/10/2006 19:29:07 The real fun is that ECCM was inexplicably given a stacking penalty (while ECM doesnt have one). I was actually playing with a domi that had 3 96% ECCMs and 3 48% backup arrays (I really hate getting jammed). That got its sensor strength cut by a factor of 3 in one patch. Apparently blowing 6 slots on ECCM means the chance of getting jammed should still be 25% a cycle against someone with half as many slots spent on ECM. The problem with ECCM is that in gangs youre much better off with more ECM, since that completely disables a target, and solo you need to pack an absurd amount, since a single jam means that your target warps. Either way, youre better off just crossing your fingers, throwing your d20, and hoping to get lucky. I'm so glad that ECM has really made PvP more about luck then skill. I was tired of the whole 'better pilot wins' thing. Still, until it gets fixed, every midslot after the first 2 on any ship I ever fly gets ECM (ECM rifter 4tw). Its sad, but effective. An ECM module affects one ship. An ECCM module affects an unlimited number of ECM modules. That's a pretty significant difference.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:54:00 - [33] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Risien Drogonne You're cutting your own throat with that logic chain. If ECM is so universally useful that everyone should fit it, then ECCM becomes just as useful because it can be used in every engagement against multiple ECM modules. Only if you always be a target which gets ECM on it. Which won't happen in a gang situation (unless you are a scorpion or blackbird or something similar). If you're never a target of ECM then ECCM doesn't matter and you have no point.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Risien Drogonne If you're never a target of ECM then ECCM doesn't matter and you have no point. Point is: Lets assume in 50% of all battles someone puts an ECM on you. So your ECCM is useful in 50% of all battles. ECM will be useful in 100% of all battles. Exept those in these 50% where you get jammed first, that is. But that won't happen in all of these battles. The overall helpfulness of ECM is still far over ECCM. Also, the very fact alone that you actually can easily assume that at least 50% of all battles will involve ECM tells you a thing or two about a balance problem.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:19:00 - [35] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 11/10/2006 20:20:19 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Risien Drogonne If you're never a target of ECM then ECCM doesn't matter and you have no point. Point is: Lets assume in 50% of all battles someone puts an ECM on you. So your ECCM is useful in 50% of all battles. ECM will be useful in 100% of all battles. Exept those in these 50% where you get jammed first, that is. But that won't happen in all of these battles. The overall helpfulness of ECM is still far over ECCM. You're doing it again. You're basing your argument on the idea that ECM works 100% of the time. It doesn't. It doesn't even work 50% of the time, which means in the end you're NOT getting more use out of it than you are out of the 50% (your number) ECCM. Quote: Also, the very fact alone that you actually can easily assume that at least 50% of all battles will involve ECM tells you a thing or two about a balance problem. Over 50% of all battles will involve shield boosters or armor reppers. Is that a balance problem?
Simon Jax Gallente Freelancing Corp	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant. 72.476% of all statistics are made up on the spot anyway. --Wherever you go, there you are.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:40:00 - [37] Edited by: Aramendel on 11/10/2006 20:41:15 Originally by: Risien Drogonne You're doing it again. You're basing your argument on the idea that ECM works 100% of the time. It doesn't. It doesn't even work 50% of the time, which means in the end you're NOT getting more use out of it than you are out of the 50% (your number) ECCM. sigh What you still miss is that ECCM will neither work 50% of all time. When you get ECM'ed. Lets even be generous, lets say it WILL help 50% of all time. 50% ecmed, ECCM will help in half these battles -> ECCM will be useful in 25% of all battles. 1 ECM will work in 30% of all battles -> ECM will be useful in 30% of all battles. Quote: Over 50% of all battles will involve shield boosters or armor reppers. Is that a balance problem? Shield boosters and armor reps are tanking devices. Together they should give you 100% (ignoring passive shield tanks). If the 100% are 50% shield boosters and 50% armor reps they are balanced vs each other. If they are 10% shield boosters and 90% armor reps they aren't. (Thats for assuming we have equal numbers of "natural" armor & shieldtankers, which we have not.) ECM is one electronic warfare module. One out of 4 to be exact. If we would have 25% ECM, 25% Damperners, 25% tracking dis, 25% target painters they would be balanced to each other. Having 50% ECM (at least) and 50% left for the other 3 modules together..well, do I need to draw you a diagram?
GrumpyCat	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Complacency's Bane I'm so glad that ECM has really made PvP more about luck then skill. I was tired of the whole 'better pilot wins' thing. Still, until it gets fixed, every midslot after the first 2 on any ship I ever fly gets ECM (ECM rifter 4tw). Its sad, but effective. Eve's combat system is all chance based except for missiles. Wrecking shots, large weapons hitting a small sig ship, hitting passed optimal.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:48:00 - [39] Originally by: Aramendel sigh What you still miss is that ECCM will neither work 50% of all time. When you get ECM'ed. Lets even be generous, lets say it WILL help 50% of all time. 50% ecmed, ECCM will help in half these battles -> ECCM will be useful in 25% of all battles. 1 ECM will work in 30% of all battles -> ECM will be useful in 30% of all battles. That is some seriously messed up logic. You are trying to say that ECCM only works when ECM successfully jams. That's sorta backwards, don't you think? Quote: ECM is one electronic warfare module. One out of 4 to be exact. If we would have 25% ECM, 25% Damperners, 25% tracking dis, 25% target painters they would be balanced to each other. Having 50% ECM (at least) and 50% left for the other 3 modules together..well, do I need to draw you a diagram? Not when half the game is playing the race that specialized in ECM.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:04:00 - [40] Originally by: Risien Drogonne That is some seriously messed up logic. You are trying to say that ECCM only works when ECM successfully jams. That's sorta backwards, don't you think? No, I am not. ECCM only "works" when it sucessfully prevents one ECM jam. If 1 ECCM doubles you sensor strength (which 1 of the best named med ECCM barely does (96%)) you will be jammed (on average) only half as often. Meaning it reduces the sucessful jams on you by 50% Quote: Not when half the game is playing the race that specialized in ECM. Exept race distribution is not the same thing as ship distribution. CCP published BS numbers in EOS 02. Caldari ships were pretty much 30% of all BS. There are a good amount more caldari players than other races. But there are not significantly more caldari ships that other races ships. The ships have the ECM bonus, not the race.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:08:00 - [41] ECM and ECCM are both useful. If your FC forbids you to use ECCM, I think you should not join the gang. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:09:00 - [42] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 11/10/2006 22:10:07 Originally by: GrumpyCat Eve's combat system is all chance based except for missiles. Wrecking shots, large weapons hitting a small sig ship, hitting passed optimal. Yes, but because of the number of shots you take in combat, those values will all end up at statistical averages, or nearabouts. You can very easily figure out what the statistical averages are and use those to determine what actions you'll take. You'd need a lot of luck with shooting to even deviate from those statistical averages by more then a few percent. ECM does not roll often enough in combat to approach statistical averages. This means that, while there is a set chance per cycle of success, a little bit of random luck goes a long way. While 5/10 successful cycles against a battleship, where each cycle only has a 25% chance of success, isnt statiscally significant, it is significant in that it just got you ***-slapped due to random luck. Originally by:** Risien Drogonne An ECM module affects one ship. An ECCM module affects an unlimited number of ECM modules. That's a pretty significant difference. Steak and cheese are seperate food groups. Thats a pretty significant difference too - and just as relevant. ECCM stacking penalized means that you have a very specific maximum sensor strength. That maximum sensor strength is not sufficient to statistically avoid more jamming then you'd avoid by fitting ECM of your own and jamming the other person. The only value ECCM has is that fitting 1-2 of them decreases the chances that someone will get a lucky hit on you with a multispec of doom setup and warp. Going up against a ship with dedicated EW of its own (you know, any ship with 5 or more midslots) means that youre gimped by comparison.
Nervar Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:45:00 - [43] Originally by: FireFoxx80 You're all wrong: When you absolutely have to jam that mofo, none of your attempts will succeed. No matter how many ships, with how many T2 ECMs trained on it. When you are holding the other end of the stick. A single T1 frig will jam the nads off of your T2 recon cruiser, whilst his corpmates laugh and take your last 20 remaining points of structure with their civilian railguns. /QFT
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 23:40:00 - [44] Originally by: Complacency's Bane ECCM stacking penalized means that you have a very specific maximum sensor strength. That maximum sensor strength is not sufficient to statistically avoid more jamming then you'd avoid by fitting ECM of your own and jamming the other person. The only value ECCM has is that fitting 1-2 of them decreases the chances that someone will get a lucky hit on you with a multispec of doom setup and warp. Going up against a ship with dedicated EW of its own (you know, any ship with 5 or more midslots) means that youre gimped by comparison. So what you're saying is that ECCM is worthless because it doesn't provide you 100% immunity against a ship whose entire purpose is to jam you with ECM... Good luck bringing that one to the devs.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Shadows of Darkness	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:06:00 - [45] i take it ya'll r talking about trying to jam a BS, cuz i dont waste the the time trying. tho when u use a racial ECM on a frig, u get about 99% chance of jamming, destroyers about 75%, and cruisers about 60%. it gets worse from there. ECCM is only useful on a BS and in certain situations, and ECM is good all around, regardless of statistics. Solution, JAM THE SHYT OUT OF THE OTHER GUY!!!
Kendala Ciistu	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:20:00 - [46] One quick quibble with the original ECCM stats: a conjunctive module was not used. Conjunctive ECCM provides the greatest boost to sensor strength, and the modules are quite cheap. Thus, there is no reason NOT to use one. As for the general effectiveness of ECCM, in our current war we've found it to be very effective. Our opponents are usually EW heavy, yet, instead of spending the entirety of every fight jammed, I usually have lock for more than half of it.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Kendala Ciistu One quick quibble with the original ECCM stats: a conjunctive module was not used. Conjunctive ECCM provides the greatest boost to sensor strength, and the modules are quite cheap. Thus, there is no reason NOT to use one. As for the general effectiveness of ECCM, in our current war we've found it to be very effective. Our opponents are usually EW heavy, yet, instead of spending the entirety of every fight jammed, I usually have lock for more than half of it. Bah. Stupid 0-skillpoint placeholder alt. I cleared out my cookies and temporary internet files, and the default character got reset. The above post was me. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Flesh Eater	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:52:00 - [48] The test wasn't entirely realistic, you really should have used a Scorpion or Rook to do the jamming, and the best ECCM module. Or remote ECCM for the most extreme boost in sensor strength. I agree that fitting ECCM might not always be of use, vs ECM which is always useful is unfortunate. I think they should combine sensor booster/signal amplifiers and ECCM/sensor backup arrays. That way you get a useful mod even if noone is jamming you. Also, I like the idea that ECM is only really effective on ships with ECM bonusses, I got the impression that this was an official option they are considering? Though if you have put the time to train ECM (Signal dispersion level IV), maybe you should be able to use it on any ship also. Character specialisation is always nice.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:52:00 - [49] Quote: So what you're saying is that ECCM is worthless because it doesn't provide you 100% immunity against a ship whose entire purpose is to jam you with ECM. Or perhaps you're saying that ECCM is useless because 1 or 2 of them don't provide 100% protection vs a ship dedicating 5 times the number of slots to ECM? Good luck bringing those whines to the devs. If someone dedicates an entire ship to ECM, they deserve to successfully jam you. The ship would be useless and broken otherwise. I'm saying that ECCM is useless because youre restricted on the number of them that you can fit, while whoever youre fighting can hit you with as many ECM as he wants. Hence you're almost always better off fitting ECM, since you'll be unjammed more by employing ECM then by ECCM, and he'll have his combat effectiveness curtailed by being jammed. There are some people who say that a single ECCM mixed in with your own ECM is worthwhile, which may be true - its too situational to be able to really say for certain there. Beyond that, the stacking penalty and the loss of jamming paints a fairly clear picture of a worthless waste of midslots.
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:56:00 - [50] Please use 500 cycles next time.
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:34:00 - [51] Edited by: Stephar on 12/10/2006 02:34:14 1v1: If your ECCM resists a jam, it's still a 1v1 where nobody is jammed. If your ECM successfully jams, the fight turns into a 1v0 where you are pumping rounds into a target dummy while the jam is active. ECM is clearly superior. 2v1: If your ECCM resists a jam, you are still outnumbered 2v1. If your ECM successfully jams, the fight turns temporarily into a 1v1, where you have effectively reduced your opponents DPS by 50%. ECM wins again. It gets more complicated for larger numbers of participants. But all other things being equal, I'd put my money on the team with the most ECM's.
X ChaosX Caldari Panzershrek	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:39:00 - [52] You can't use statistics on a random module. If I fail 10 jams in a row against a target with no eccm and hit 10 jams in a row on a target with eccm, that doesnt mean that eccm doesn't work, it just means that the guy was one helleva unlucky guy ______________________________________________ Originally by: Bill Shankly i see your another one of those lousy pirates that cant fight fair and call yourself apvper, what a joke u are.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:41:00 - [53] Originally by: X ChaosX You can't use statistics on a random module. ... .... ..... Thats like saying you cant use your eyes if you dont already know what you see.
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: X ChaosX You can't use statistics on a random module. ... .... ..... Thats like saying you cant use your eyes if you dont already know what you see. I'm not sure what the analogy is supposed to mean, but I agree the the origionally-quoted statement is false.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Complacency's Bane I'm saying that ECCM is useless because youre restricted on the number of them that you can fit, while whoever youre fighting can hit you with as many ECM as he wants. Hence you're almost always better off fitting ECM, since you'll be unjammed more by employing ECM then by ECCM, and he'll have his combat effectiveness curtailed by being jammed. There are some people who say that a single ECCM mixed in with your own ECM is worthwhile, which may be true - its too situational to be able to really say for certain there. Beyond that, the stacking penalty and the loss of jamming paints a fairly clear picture of a worthless waste of midslots. That one ECCM module works against an infinite number of ECM modules at the same time, while the ECM module works against only one target. ECCM works, it really does. The problem is no one wants to "gimp their setup" to fit it, which is pitiful because getting jammed will gimp your setup more.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:50:00 - [56] That test realy proves nothing tbh. Tried 5 Medium ECM drones from a rax against my Megathron once and was permanently jammed for over a minute. 5 Medium ECM is statisticaly less likely to jam a Megathron than a Multispec is lol. CEO - Art of War
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 04:40:00 - [57] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 12/10/2006 04:40:32 Originally by: Risien Drogonne That one ECCM module works against an infinite number of ECM modules at the same time, while the ECM module works against only one target. ECCM works, it really does. The problem is no one wants to "gimp their setup" to fit it, which is pitiful because getting jammed will gimp your setup more. Yes, getting jammed gimps your setup. So what exactly do you think is better - fitting ECM and counterjamming (resulting in exactly what you said - gimped setp for your opponant), or fitting ECCM and getting jammed anyway. ECCM works on a single offensive module - ECM works on ALL the offensive modules. Which just by itself isnt a strong case for using ECCM, but in practice you'll be unjammed just as long by employing your own ECM as you will by employing ECCM. Plus, youre negating the rest of his offensive modules by using ECM. The best case scenerio for ECCM is that its not less useless then ECM. I cant imagine you possibly remember the old (far superior) ECM system if youre defending how ECCM works in this one.
Ephemeron Crimson Crusaders Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.12 05:16:00 - [58] A single ECCM module (96%) has the effect of "halfing" effective number of offensive ECM on your enemies. For example, lets say you and your enemy are in same type of battleship with 4 slots for EW. Your enemy fits 4 ECM mods, you fit 1 ECCM and 3 ECM. Your ECCM doubles your sensor strength, those enemy ECM becomes half as effective. It boils down to your enemy having 2 ECM and you having 3 ECM. You have better chances of success. There are certain situations where ECCM is very useful. Not too long ago I was confronted with this enemy group: Falon, megathron, dominix, vexor I had: dominix, blackbird My dominix had 3 slots for EW, but I chose to fit 2 ECCM and 1 ECM. This decision allowed me to win the battle. Their Falcon started trying to jamm both my blackbird and dominix. My blackbird got permajammed for entire 1-2 minutes of the battle. I had 5 ECM mods on it and they were completely useless. My dominix didn't get jammed at all. I was able to kill their dominix, vexor, and megathron. If I followed the common logic here that ECM is always more useful then ECCM, then my dominix would have surely been jammed and I would lose the battle.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.10.12 07:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Risien Drogonne That one ECCM module works against an infinite number of ECM modules at the same time, while the ECM module works against only one target.... Logic error modules <-> target. If a target has 3 ECM & 4 NOS my single ECM just disabled these 7 modules. Chances of a single ECM working are higher than me not getting jammed by 3 hostile ECM even with an ECCM of my own.
Grytok	Posted - 2006.10.12 09:34:00 - [60] I don't know, why you all complain about, that ECM is too _BER?!? If I'm using a 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I with 4.8 strength against a Megathron with 21 sensor-strength. My chance is at 22.8% to jam the Thron. But, no guarantee about that. It can happen that I fail in this fight totally, while in the next fight every cycle is successful. Sure ECM is a PITA, but everyone can use them with little effort, so use ECM yourself instead of complaining about it. .

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