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VengerZap The Devil's Rejects	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:11:00 - [1] I decided to do a quick experiment on how effective ECM and ECCM is. Using either a single tech1 Multi spec or a tech1 Racial I tried jamming an alt in a Megathron. I let the jammers run for 10 cycles each (200 seconds), recording when they jammed. I then repeated the exercise again with the Mega activating a ECCM module. The jammer char has signal dispersion lvl3. 1. Multi Spec against Megathron Megathron Signal Strength: 21 points. Multispec Strength 4.6 Cycle 1 Fail Cycle 2 Fail Cycle 3 Success Cycle 4 Fail Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Fail Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Fail Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate: 10% So far ECM isn't that scary, working only 1 in 10 isn't particularly overpowered. Let's try with racial. 2. Racial against Megathron Megathron Signal Strength: 21 points. Racial Strength 6.9 Cycle 1 Fail Cycle 2 Fail Cycle 3 Success Cycle 4 Fail Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Success Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Success Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate 30% As expected fitting racial jammers gives quite an improvement. On it's own, at 30% effectiveness a single racial jammer isn't particularly something to fear. So now let's try with the Mega using ECCM. 3. Multi Spec against Megathron using ECCM Megathron Signal Strength: 37 points. Multispec Strength 4.6 Cycle 1 Fail Cycle 2 Fail Cycle 3 Fail Cycle 4 Success Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Fail Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Fail Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate 10% So fitting an ECCM has had no effect against a Multispec 4. Racial against Megathron Megathron Signal Strength: 37 points. Racial Strength 6.9 Cycle 1 Success Cycle 2 Success Cycle 3 Fail Cycle 4 Fail Cycle 5 Fail Cycle 6 Success Cycle 7 Fail Cycle 8 Success Cycle 9 Fail Cycle 10 Fail Success Rate 40% Now this is confusing, during this round when fitting an ECCM module, the chances of being jammer have actually increased by 10%. (Yes, I did check I'd fitted the correct ECCM module.) What does all this mean? Well a single a ECM modules isn't as overpowered as perhaps alot of people think. However when 2-3 of them are used on a ship at once it's easy to see how devastating they can be, stripping a ship of all it's offensive abilities except for drones. And according to my crude experiment, ECCM is completely useless. I realized that this was just one experiment so I wouldn't take the results as any sort of final word on the effectiveness of ECM and ECCM.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:19:00 - [2] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 11/10/2006 14:19:09 Only making ten jam attempts will lead to all sorts of statistical anomalies. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:21:00 - [3] You should increase the tries, but I would have expected the number of jams to be much higher. At least they seem to work every time against me. :/ --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Taipan Gedscho Taipan Industries	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:23:00 - [4] does an eccm mod break the jam? so try to activate the eccm when youre jammed, and not before. -- Only you can save MMORPGS - Stop whining today!
DarkElf Caldari Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:28:00 - [5] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho does an eccm mod break the jam? so try to activate the eccm when youre jammed, and not before. no it does not break the jam, only increases ur chance of resisting it next cycle DE
VengerZap The Devil's Rejects	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:29:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim McGregor You should increase the tries, but I would have expected the number of jams to be much higher. At least they seem to work every time against me. :/ I was expecting the number of jams to be higher as well. Perhaps when you're jammed in a combat situation, getting shot to hell, the 20 seconds cycle seems alot longer. Or maybe I'm just no good at jamming.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:29:00 - [7] now do each test 1000 times and you might have some accurate results! Save Low-sec
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:36:00 - [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_significance
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:36:00 - [9] Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. --- New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide.

Tuxford	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:42:00 - [10] Originally by: GC13 Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. I love when people talk dirty on the forums. _______________

DubanFP Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:45:00 - [11] Imperial probability is not an accurate way of telling the jam probebility, especially with only 10 jam cycles.
Idara Caldari Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:45:00 - [12] 30 trials per variable is the minimum you should do, or so that's what Biology has taught me.
Kenya Borgin	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:54:00 - [13] Edited by: Kenya Borgin on 11/10/2006 14:55:52 Edited by: Kenya Borgin on 11/10/2006 14:54:57 But since statistic stuff only is accurate when you do infinit number of tries, and since the random number generator (this really is not random) is an algorithm and not random at all...just appears to be random, you can not rely upon statistics.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.11 14:55:00 - [14] You're all wrong: When you absolutely have to jam that mofo, none of your attempts will succeed. No matter how many ships, with how many T2 ECMs trained on it. When you are holding the other end of the stick. A single T1 frig will jam the nads off of your T2 recon cruiser, whilst his corpmates laugh and take your last 20 remaining points of structure with their civilian railguns. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
GC13 Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: GC13 Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. I love when people talk dirty on the forums. Reminds me of this bumper sticker somebody has on campus: "Talk nerdy to me." Now guys, I've realized just how little work I've done with binomial distributions, and the sample is too small to make this intro to stats book (why did I have to sell the Social Statistics book?) happy. Now go forth and bringeth me a hundred samples, and I'll see what I can do. (For anybody who's ever seen Invader Zim) "We guarantee we'll see what we can do." --- New to Eve? Interested in manufacturing stuff, or doing research on blueprints? Check out my fully-updated Science and Industry guide.
Rorix Whitecloud Caldari Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:07:00 - [16] Originally by: FireFoxx80 You're all wrong: When you absolutely have to jam that mofo, none of your attempts will succeed. No matter how many ships, with how many T2 ECMs trained on it. When you are holding the other end of the stick. A single T1 frig will jam the nads off of your T2 recon cruiser, whilst his corpmates laugh and take your last 20 remaining points of structure with their civilian railguns. Absolute Truth. ~I don't remember. That's the second thing they teach you.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Jim McGregor You should increase the tries, but I would have expected the number of jams to be much higher. At least they seem to work every time against me. :/ I will call that bad luck. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:28:00 - [18] Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
murder one Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant. I like pie! \o/ Because I said so...
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.10.11 15:36:00 - [21] Cyclone vs. Rook. Busted-ass Cyclone. Cyclone + ECCM vs. Rook. Busted-ass Rook. True story. ---------------------------- Remember, killing a Goon isn't murder. They don't have souls.
Crellion Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.11 17:23:00 - [22] Actuallly ECCM is useless. An ECM has a chance of shutting down a target. An ECCM provides an equally valuable chance of resisting a jam. However an ECM can benefit the gang every single engagement and no matter who is primary on both sides. ECCM will only benefit if enemy is using EW and then only if you are the primary. So in a gang useless. Say you use it when you solo: Here it helps everytime the mofos have EW since ou will be the primary every time. However it doesnt help when they dont pack EW or when they pack serious EW. It only helps if they pack a multi or 2 or a single racial on a non-bonused ship. If they go for sensor dampening or target disrupting etc you waisted your slot. If you had fitted 1 multispec and they carry no EW you ll get some bemefit. If you have a multi and they carry damps and disrupts and stuff you might benefit. If they carry little EW you might benefit. if they carry loads of EW = no benefit. So solo v multiple useful in 1/4 whereas a multi would be usefull 3/4 In 1v1s If the guy is trying to get a small edge with 1 multi 1 ECCM will help a bit but you are wasting a slot each so no biggy. If he is carrying 2-3 multis or 1-2 racials then your ECCM might help a lot. If he is carrying no EW you wasted a slot. On the other hand 1 multi might help you if he is carrying no EW but will do nothing much for you if he is carrying more EW or ECCM... I ll call ECCM a mod of some value for 1v1s So in my own empirical and non-mathematical way of thinking ECCM useless unless if you are doing 1v1 with someone you expect to carry a couple of ECM mods. In every other conceivable situation its crap. The threads suggesting a qualified immunity but 100% of the time (like you can only lock 1 ship per activation of ECCM module for 20 secs and then your ECCM has to stay inactive for 15 secs etc) should have received more Dev attention. Meh...
Dario Wall Caldari Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:04:00 - [23] Doesn't ECM work something like: ECM strength / Ship Sensor strength = % Chance to jam So, if an ECCM module increases the sensor strength of the ship, it would lower the % chance of said ship getting jammed. Atleast, that's how I always thought it worked. Of course I could be wrong... All your sigs are belong to us - Xorus
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:36:00 - [24] Originally by: murder one I like pie! \o/ Thank you. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Ebedar Gallente Primary Intelligence	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:37:00 - [25] A while back I did 100 test jams against a Megathron using both multis and racials (that's 100 with each) and found, surprisingly enough, that they jammed about the number of times you would expect them to. Didn't get to test with ECCM though as the person I was doing the testing with had had enough by then and had curled up into a ball and started to cry. I keep him as a pet and let him out when the sun shines. ~ Balls > WCS
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 18:43:00 - [26] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 11/10/2006 18:45:38 Originally by: Crellion Actuallly ECCM is useless. An ECM has a chance of shutting down a target. An ECCM provides an equally valuable chance of resisting a jam. However an ECM can benefit the gang every single engagement and no matter who is primary on both sides. ECCM will only benefit if enemy is using EW and then only if you are the primary. So in a gang useless. That's a load of rubbish. By that logic, sensor damps, tracking disruptors, sensor boosters, half your hardeners, microwarpdrives and a load of other modules are useless too because they don't always apply to every single combat situation you get into. Don't cry about getting jammed if you're unwilling to dedicate a slot to the counter. That's like crying about an opponent's shields because you refuse to fit a weapon. Further, this is one of the reasons ECM is chance-based. While it CAN benefit you in every engagement, it won't in reality. You'll have plenty of engagements where it fails to jam completely. THAT means that ECM does not benefit you in every engagement, just like all the modules listed above.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Further, this is one of the reasons ECM is chance-based. While it CAN benefit you in every engagement, it won't in reality. You'll have plenty of engagements where it fails to jam completely. THAT means that ECM does not benefit you in every engagement, just like all the modules listed above. ECCM is in the end also only chance-based. That was his whole point. Compared to ECM ECCM is useless. It is far better to fit ECM instead you do not only have a chance to "resist" and ECM attack (by shutting down an enemy ship which could use ECM), but also help your gang (by shutting down a ship). ECCM is one wasted slot unless someone is using a jammer on you. ECM is more universally useful and typically offers you as much "protection". In a gang situation. Also, as a sidenote: ECCM has never and will never balance ECM (unless 1 ECCM = ECM immunity perhaps). The problem is that ECM is far stronger and universally useable than the other EW systems. Arbis and curse/pilgrim setups typically use rather ECM than tracking disruptores for a reason. When ECM + no shipbonus > other EW + shipbonus there might be a slight balancing problem.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Aramendel ECCM is in the end also only chance-based. That was his whole point. Compared to ECM ECCM is useless. It is far better to fit ECM instead you do not only have a chance to "resist" and ECM attack (by shutting down an enemy ship which could use ECM), but also help your gang (by shutting down a ship). ECCM is one wasted slot unless someone is using a jammer on you. ECM is more universally useful and typically offers you as much "protection". In a gang situation. You're cutting your own throat with that logic chain. If ECM is so universally useful that everyone should fit it, then ECCM becomes just as useful because it can be used in every engagement against multiple ECM modules.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:27:00 - [29] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 11/10/2006 19:29:07 The real fun is that ECCM was inexplicably given a stacking penalty (while ECM doesnt have one). I was actually playing with a domi that had 3 96% ECCMs and 3 48% backup arrays (I really hate getting jammed). That got its sensor strength cut by a factor of 3 in one patch. Apparently blowing 6 slots on ECCM means the chance of getting jammed should still be 25% a cycle against someone with half as many slots spent on ECM. The problem with ECCM is that in gangs youre much better off with more ECM, since that completely disables a target, and solo you need to pack an absurd amount, since a single jam means that your target warps. Either way, youre better off just crossing your fingers, throwing your d20, and hoping to get lucky. I'm so glad that ECM has really made PvP more about luck then skill. I was tired of the whole 'better pilot wins' thing. Still, until it gets fixed, every midslot after the first 2 on any ship I ever fly gets ECM (ECM rifter 4tw). Its sad, but effective.
Adoro Reunited	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Tuxford Originally by: GC13 Dude, you need to do at least a hundred trials to even have a stab at reasonably accurate numbers. Now, just to prove what a nerd I am, I'm going to pull out my old statistics textbook and eyeball your statistical accuracy on that. And if I'm REALLY a nerd, I'll calculate it and your confidence interval and then edit it into my post. I love when people talk dirty on the forums. I thought..."O NOES! A Dev replies to a ECM topic. READ READ READ...!!" And thats whay you say? I thought ECM was finally going to be nerfed... Better luck next time on my side -------- Bailian Moxtain: Quote: Who needs pride when there's isk to be made
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Risien Drogonne You're cutting your own throat with that logic chain. If ECM is so universally useful that everyone should fit it, then ECCM becomes just as useful because it can be used in every engagement against multiple ECM modules. Only if you always be a target which gets ECM on it. Which won't happen in a gang situation (unless you are a scorpion or blackbird or something similar).
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:53:00 - [32] Originally by: Complacency's Bane Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 11/10/2006 19:29:07 The real fun is that ECCM was inexplicably given a stacking penalty (while ECM doesnt have one). I was actually playing with a domi that had 3 96% ECCMs and 3 48% backup arrays (I really hate getting jammed). That got its sensor strength cut by a factor of 3 in one patch. Apparently blowing 6 slots on ECCM means the chance of getting jammed should still be 25% a cycle against someone with half as many slots spent on ECM. The problem with ECCM is that in gangs youre much better off with more ECM, since that completely disables a target, and solo you need to pack an absurd amount, since a single jam means that your target warps. Either way, youre better off just crossing your fingers, throwing your d20, and hoping to get lucky. I'm so glad that ECM has really made PvP more about luck then skill. I was tired of the whole 'better pilot wins' thing. Still, until it gets fixed, every midslot after the first 2 on any ship I ever fly gets ECM (ECM rifter 4tw). Its sad, but effective. An ECM module affects one ship. An ECCM module affects an unlimited number of ECM modules. That's a pretty significant difference.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 19:54:00 - [33] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Risien Drogonne You're cutting your own throat with that logic chain. If ECM is so universally useful that everyone should fit it, then ECCM becomes just as useful because it can be used in every engagement against multiple ECM modules. Only if you always be a target which gets ECM on it. Which won't happen in a gang situation (unless you are a scorpion or blackbird or something similar). If you're never a target of ECM then ECCM doesn't matter and you have no point.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Risien Drogonne If you're never a target of ECM then ECCM doesn't matter and you have no point. Point is: Lets assume in 50% of all battles someone puts an ECM on you. So your ECCM is useful in 50% of all battles. ECM will be useful in 100% of all battles. Exept those in these 50% where you get jammed first, that is. But that won't happen in all of these battles. The overall helpfulness of ECM is still far over ECCM. Also, the very fact alone that you actually can easily assume that at least 50% of all battles will involve ECM tells you a thing or two about a balance problem.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:19:00 - [35] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 11/10/2006 20:20:19 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Risien Drogonne If you're never a target of ECM then ECCM doesn't matter and you have no point. Point is: Lets assume in 50% of all battles someone puts an ECM on you. So your ECCM is useful in 50% of all battles. ECM will be useful in 100% of all battles. Exept those in these 50% where you get jammed first, that is. But that won't happen in all of these battles. The overall helpfulness of ECM is still far over ECCM. You're doing it again. You're basing your argument on the idea that ECM works 100% of the time. It doesn't. It doesn't even work 50% of the time, which means in the end you're NOT getting more use out of it than you are out of the 50% (your number) ECCM. Quote: Also, the very fact alone that you actually can easily assume that at least 50% of all battles will involve ECM tells you a thing or two about a balance problem. Over 50% of all battles will involve shield boosters or armor reppers. Is that a balance problem?
Simon Jax Gallente Freelancing Corp	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz Originally by: VengerZap What does all this mean? Your results are statisticly insignifigant. 72.476% of all statistics are made up on the spot anyway. --Wherever you go, there you are.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:40:00 - [37] Edited by: Aramendel on 11/10/2006 20:41:15 Originally by: Risien Drogonne You're doing it again. You're basing your argument on the idea that ECM works 100% of the time. It doesn't. It doesn't even work 50% of the time, which means in the end you're NOT getting more use out of it than you are out of the 50% (your number) ECCM. sigh What you still miss is that ECCM will neither work 50% of all time. When you get ECM'ed. Lets even be generous, lets say it WILL help 50% of all time. 50% ecmed, ECCM will help in half these battles -> ECCM will be useful in 25% of all battles. 1 ECM will work in 30% of all battles -> ECM will be useful in 30% of all battles. Quote: Over 50% of all battles will involve shield boosters or armor reppers. Is that a balance problem? Shield boosters and armor reps are tanking devices. Together they should give you 100% (ignoring passive shield tanks). If the 100% are 50% shield boosters and 50% armor reps they are balanced vs each other. If they are 10% shield boosters and 90% armor reps they aren't. (Thats for assuming we have equal numbers of "natural" armor & shieldtankers, which we have not.) ECM is one electronic warfare module. One out of 4 to be exact. If we would have 25% ECM, 25% Damperners, 25% tracking dis, 25% target painters they would be balanced to each other. Having 50% ECM (at least) and 50% left for the other 3 modules together..well, do I need to draw you a diagram?
GrumpyCat	Posted - 2006.10.11 20:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Complacency's Bane I'm so glad that ECM has really made PvP more about luck then skill. I was tired of the whole 'better pilot wins' thing. Still, until it gets fixed, every midslot after the first 2 on any ship I ever fly gets ECM (ECM rifter 4tw). Its sad, but effective. Eve's combat system is all chance based except for missiles. Wrecking shots, large weapons hitting a small sig ship, hitting passed optimal.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 21:48:00 - [39] Originally by: Aramendel sigh What you still miss is that ECCM will neither work 50% of all time. When you get ECM'ed. Lets even be generous, lets say it WILL help 50% of all time. 50% ecmed, ECCM will help in half these battles -> ECCM will be useful in 25% of all battles. 1 ECM will work in 30% of all battles -> ECM will be useful in 30% of all battles. That is some seriously messed up logic. You are trying to say that ECCM only works when ECM successfully jams. That's sorta backwards, don't you think? Quote: ECM is one electronic warfare module. One out of 4 to be exact. If we would have 25% ECM, 25% Damperners, 25% tracking dis, 25% target painters they would be balanced to each other. Having 50% ECM (at least) and 50% left for the other 3 modules together..well, do I need to draw you a diagram? Not when half the game is playing the race that specialized in ECM.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:04:00 - [40] Originally by: Risien Drogonne That is some seriously messed up logic. You are trying to say that ECCM only works when ECM successfully jams. That's sorta backwards, don't you think? No, I am not. ECCM only "works" when it sucessfully prevents one ECM jam. If 1 ECCM doubles you sensor strength (which 1 of the best named med ECCM barely does (96%)) you will be jammed (on average) only half as often. Meaning it reduces the sucessful jams on you by 50% Quote: Not when half the game is playing the race that specialized in ECM. Exept race distribution is not the same thing as ship distribution. CCP published BS numbers in EOS 02. Caldari ships were pretty much 30% of all BS. There are a good amount more caldari players than other races. But there are not significantly more caldari ships that other races ships. The ships have the ECM bonus, not the race.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:08:00 - [41] ECM and ECCM are both useful. If your FC forbids you to use ECCM, I think you should not join the gang. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:09:00 - [42] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 11/10/2006 22:10:07 Originally by: GrumpyCat Eve's combat system is all chance based except for missiles. Wrecking shots, large weapons hitting a small sig ship, hitting passed optimal. Yes, but because of the number of shots you take in combat, those values will all end up at statistical averages, or nearabouts. You can very easily figure out what the statistical averages are and use those to determine what actions you'll take. You'd need a lot of luck with shooting to even deviate from those statistical averages by more then a few percent. ECM does not roll often enough in combat to approach statistical averages. This means that, while there is a set chance per cycle of success, a little bit of random luck goes a long way. While 5/10 successful cycles against a battleship, where each cycle only has a 25% chance of success, isnt statiscally significant, it is significant in that it just got you ***-slapped due to random luck. Originally by:** Risien Drogonne An ECM module affects one ship. An ECCM module affects an unlimited number of ECM modules. That's a pretty significant difference. Steak and cheese are seperate food groups. Thats a pretty significant difference too - and just as relevant. ECCM stacking penalized means that you have a very specific maximum sensor strength. That maximum sensor strength is not sufficient to statistically avoid more jamming then you'd avoid by fitting ECM of your own and jamming the other person. The only value ECCM has is that fitting 1-2 of them decreases the chances that someone will get a lucky hit on you with a multispec of doom setup and warp. Going up against a ship with dedicated EW of its own (you know, any ship with 5 or more midslots) means that youre gimped by comparison.
Nervar Exotic Dancers Club	Posted - 2006.10.11 22:45:00 - [43] Originally by: FireFoxx80 You're all wrong: When you absolutely have to jam that mofo, none of your attempts will succeed. No matter how many ships, with how many T2 ECMs trained on it. When you are holding the other end of the stick. A single T1 frig will jam the nads off of your T2 recon cruiser, whilst his corpmates laugh and take your last 20 remaining points of structure with their civilian railguns. /QFT
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.11 23:40:00 - [44] Originally by: Complacency's Bane ECCM stacking penalized means that you have a very specific maximum sensor strength. That maximum sensor strength is not sufficient to statistically avoid more jamming then you'd avoid by fitting ECM of your own and jamming the other person. The only value ECCM has is that fitting 1-2 of them decreases the chances that someone will get a lucky hit on you with a multispec of doom setup and warp. Going up against a ship with dedicated EW of its own (you know, any ship with 5 or more midslots) means that youre gimped by comparison. So what you're saying is that ECCM is worthless because it doesn't provide you 100% immunity against a ship whose entire purpose is to jam you with ECM... Good luck bringing that one to the devs.
InsanlyEvlPerson Gallente Shadows of Darkness	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:06:00 - [45] i take it ya'll r talking about trying to jam a BS, cuz i dont waste the the time trying. tho when u use a racial ECM on a frig, u get about 99% chance of jamming, destroyers about 75%, and cruisers about 60%. it gets worse from there. ECCM is only useful on a BS and in certain situations, and ECM is good all around, regardless of statistics. Solution, JAM THE SHYT OUT OF THE OTHER GUY!!!
Kendala Ciistu	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:20:00 - [46] One quick quibble with the original ECCM stats: a conjunctive module was not used. Conjunctive ECCM provides the greatest boost to sensor strength, and the modules are quite cheap. Thus, there is no reason NOT to use one. As for the general effectiveness of ECCM, in our current war we've found it to be very effective. Our opponents are usually EW heavy, yet, instead of spending the entirety of every fight jammed, I usually have lock for more than half of it.
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Kendala Ciistu One quick quibble with the original ECCM stats: a conjunctive module was not used. Conjunctive ECCM provides the greatest boost to sensor strength, and the modules are quite cheap. Thus, there is no reason NOT to use one. As for the general effectiveness of ECCM, in our current war we've found it to be very effective. Our opponents are usually EW heavy, yet, instead of spending the entirety of every fight jammed, I usually have lock for more than half of it. Bah. Stupid 0-skillpoint placeholder alt. I cleared out my cookies and temporary internet files, and the default character got reset. The above post was me. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Flesh Eater	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:52:00 - [48] The test wasn't entirely realistic, you really should have used a Scorpion or Rook to do the jamming, and the best ECCM module. Or remote ECCM for the most extreme boost in sensor strength. I agree that fitting ECCM might not always be of use, vs ECM which is always useful is unfortunate. I think they should combine sensor booster/signal amplifiers and ECCM/sensor backup arrays. That way you get a useful mod even if noone is jamming you. Also, I like the idea that ECM is only really effective on ships with ECM bonusses, I got the impression that this was an official option they are considering? Though if you have put the time to train ECM (Signal dispersion level IV), maybe you should be able to use it on any ship also. Character specialisation is always nice.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:52:00 - [49] Quote: So what you're saying is that ECCM is worthless because it doesn't provide you 100% immunity against a ship whose entire purpose is to jam you with ECM. Or perhaps you're saying that ECCM is useless because 1 or 2 of them don't provide 100% protection vs a ship dedicating 5 times the number of slots to ECM? Good luck bringing those whines to the devs. If someone dedicates an entire ship to ECM, they deserve to successfully jam you. The ship would be useless and broken otherwise. I'm saying that ECCM is useless because youre restricted on the number of them that you can fit, while whoever youre fighting can hit you with as many ECM as he wants. Hence you're almost always better off fitting ECM, since you'll be unjammed more by employing ECM then by ECCM, and he'll have his combat effectiveness curtailed by being jammed. There are some people who say that a single ECCM mixed in with your own ECM is worthwhile, which may be true - its too situational to be able to really say for certain there. Beyond that, the stacking penalty and the loss of jamming paints a fairly clear picture of a worthless waste of midslots.
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.12 01:56:00 - [50] Please use 500 cycles next time.
Stephar The High Priest	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:34:00 - [51] Edited by: Stephar on 12/10/2006 02:34:14 1v1: If your ECCM resists a jam, it's still a 1v1 where nobody is jammed. If your ECM successfully jams, the fight turns into a 1v0 where you are pumping rounds into a target dummy while the jam is active. ECM is clearly superior. 2v1: If your ECCM resists a jam, you are still outnumbered 2v1. If your ECM successfully jams, the fight turns temporarily into a 1v1, where you have effectively reduced your opponents DPS by 50%. ECM wins again. It gets more complicated for larger numbers of participants. But all other things being equal, I'd put my money on the team with the most ECM's.
X ChaosX Caldari Panzershrek	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:39:00 - [52] You can't use statistics on a random module. If I fail 10 jams in a row against a target with no eccm and hit 10 jams in a row on a target with eccm, that doesnt mean that eccm doesn't work, it just means that the guy was one helleva unlucky guy ______________________________________________ Originally by: Bill Shankly i see your another one of those lousy pirates that cant fight fair and call yourself apvper, what a joke u are.
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 02:41:00 - [53] Originally by: X ChaosX You can't use statistics on a random module. ... .... ..... Thats like saying you cant use your eyes if you dont already know what you see.
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Complacency's Bane Originally by: X ChaosX You can't use statistics on a random module. ... .... ..... Thats like saying you cant use your eyes if you dont already know what you see. I'm not sure what the analogy is supposed to mean, but I agree the the origionally-quoted statement is false.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:35:00 - [55] Originally by: Complacency's Bane I'm saying that ECCM is useless because youre restricted on the number of them that you can fit, while whoever youre fighting can hit you with as many ECM as he wants. Hence you're almost always better off fitting ECM, since you'll be unjammed more by employing ECM then by ECCM, and he'll have his combat effectiveness curtailed by being jammed. There are some people who say that a single ECCM mixed in with your own ECM is worthwhile, which may be true - its too situational to be able to really say for certain there. Beyond that, the stacking penalty and the loss of jamming paints a fairly clear picture of a worthless waste of midslots. That one ECCM module works against an infinite number of ECM modules at the same time, while the ECM module works against only one target. ECCM works, it really does. The problem is no one wants to "gimp their setup" to fit it, which is pitiful because getting jammed will gimp your setup more.
Nebuli Caldari Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2006.10.12 03:50:00 - [56] That test realy proves nothing tbh. Tried 5 Medium ECM drones from a rax against my Megathron once and was permanently jammed for over a minute. 5 Medium ECM is statisticaly less likely to jam a Megathron than a Multispec is lol. CEO - Art of War
Complacency's Bane Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.12 04:40:00 - [57] Edited by: Complacency''s Bane on 12/10/2006 04:40:32 Originally by: Risien Drogonne That one ECCM module works against an infinite number of ECM modules at the same time, while the ECM module works against only one target. ECCM works, it really does. The problem is no one wants to "gimp their setup" to fit it, which is pitiful because getting jammed will gimp your setup more. Yes, getting jammed gimps your setup. So what exactly do you think is better - fitting ECM and counterjamming (resulting in exactly what you said - gimped setp for your opponant), or fitting ECCM and getting jammed anyway. ECCM works on a single offensive module - ECM works on ALL the offensive modules. Which just by itself isnt a strong case for using ECCM, but in practice you'll be unjammed just as long by employing your own ECM as you will by employing ECCM. Plus, youre negating the rest of his offensive modules by using ECM. The best case scenerio for ECCM is that its not less useless then ECM. I cant imagine you possibly remember the old (far superior) ECM system if youre defending how ECCM works in this one.
Ephemeron Crimson Crusaders Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.10.12 05:16:00 - [58] A single ECCM module (96%) has the effect of "halfing" effective number of offensive ECM on your enemies. For example, lets say you and your enemy are in same type of battleship with 4 slots for EW. Your enemy fits 4 ECM mods, you fit 1 ECCM and 3 ECM. Your ECCM doubles your sensor strength, those enemy ECM becomes half as effective. It boils down to your enemy having 2 ECM and you having 3 ECM. You have better chances of success. There are certain situations where ECCM is very useful. Not too long ago I was confronted with this enemy group: Falon, megathron, dominix, vexor I had: dominix, blackbird My dominix had 3 slots for EW, but I chose to fit 2 ECCM and 1 ECM. This decision allowed me to win the battle. Their Falcon started trying to jamm both my blackbird and dominix. My blackbird got permajammed for entire 1-2 minutes of the battle. I had 5 ECM mods on it and they were completely useless. My dominix didn't get jammed at all. I was able to kill their dominix, vexor, and megathron. If I followed the common logic here that ECM is always more useful then ECCM, then my dominix would have surely been jammed and I would lose the battle.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.10.12 07:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Risien Drogonne That one ECCM module works against an infinite number of ECM modules at the same time, while the ECM module works against only one target.... Logic error modules <-> target. If a target has 3 ECM & 4 NOS my single ECM just disabled these 7 modules. Chances of a single ECM working are higher than me not getting jammed by 3 hostile ECM even with an ECCM of my own.
Grytok	Posted - 2006.10.12 09:34:00 - [60] I don't know, why you all complain about, that ECM is too _BER?!? If I'm using a 'Hypnos' Multispectral ECM I with 4.8 strength against a Megathron with 21 sensor-strength. My chance is at 22.8% to jam the Thron. But, no guarantee about that. It can happen that I fail in this fight totally, while in the next fight every cycle is successful. Sure ECM is a PITA, but everyone can use them with little effort, so use ECM yourself instead of complaining about it. .
Beringe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2006.10.12 10:02:00 - [61] Everyone always bringing ECM to a fight is zero fun. And right now, everyone is. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.10.12 10:15:00 - [62] Originally by: Beringe Everyone always bringing ECM to a fight is zero fun. And right now, everyone is. It's fun for the person jamming you.
Lord Da'Korr	Posted - 2006.10.12 11:34:00 - [63] Salute! Read the whole thread trough. Funny People talking about funny stuff. EWAR is simple. Use it and kick asses or just refuse to use it. It's all a matter of personal taste and preference. ECM is by far not _BER if u want my opinion. Well, this is said by a guy who has fallen in love with ECM right from the beginning. I think it can be concluded to a few lines here: If you are on your own, venturing all alone through 0.0 space, you might find a multispec (or a racial one if you know what kind of enemy you will face) come in handy eventually when the odds are not against you. Within a fleet of 10 frigs ECM and of course all the other nasty EWAR mods too are simply a MUST (fullstop). It kills your opponent right within the first seconds of engagement, leaving him as hapless sitting spectator till he popps, whatever kind of ship he might sit in. This is even true for 2 or three of them depending of the size of the frig fleet and the leading abilities of the FC in charge. Dacor?
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2006.10.12 12:23:00 - [64] electronic counter measures are currently making the tackiling of ecm using targets pretty hard since a ceptor has a low base sensor strenght. i think ecm should be harder to use or at least be combined with a procedure like tracking too make this kind of EW more complicated and harder to perform given the fact that a single successful jam renders ur ship totally useless for 20 seconds and more while it also seems that a successful jam will result in more successful jamming attempts on the same target afterwards. imo jamming shouldnt be chance based as it seems to be pretty easy to jam someone even with medicore ecm skills. imo jamming should work like this: an ecm needs a clear and undisrupted amout of time to overwhelm the targets sensor (say same as lockingtime or a base amout of time which is modified by skill) in this period of time the jammer performs a calibration of its sensors to match the same sensor calibration of its target. this attempt is something the enemy can see in form of a timer (like "enemy ecm calibration XY% complete") now to the function: an ecm, be it a racial or a multi has a base strenght. this strength determines besides skills and calibartaion time vs the diffrent sized shipclasses the success of an ecm vs the base strenght of the enemies sensors. so if a target has a 4 times bigger sensor strenght the whole jamming porcess needs 4 times longer to perform a successful jam (plus base amout of ecm calibration time according to shipsize). an ecm is therefore always able to jam a target. the only factor which neglets the use of jammers is the time which is needed to do so. also a target which knows that the enemy is trying to jam it can see when his sensors are going to fail and can act before he is rendered defenceless. therefore the use of ecm will need further support like scrambling or webbing to ensure that the ecm will do its job and mess up the enemies strategy. using this porcedure a skilled ecm user can jam his enemy a lot faster than someone who is new to EW. also this factors in signature radius and ships size which one the one hand benefits the ecm user by the disadvantage of small ships sensor strength towards strong ecm, but on the other hand gives the pilots of smaller ships an advatage since the process of jamming is calculated by locking time duration. Duration limitations: after a successfull jam cycle the jam needs to be repeated. so u can jamm the enemy for 20 seconds but after wards u need to go through the whole process to jam the enemy again giving the enemy the chance to reaquire lock and deal some dmg. ofc u can use several ecm on the same target and time cycles so that the timewindow of a new jamming attempt is covered with another successful ecm. calculation BS vs BS: EW user Battleship EW receiver Battleship time needed for jammer to calibrate (according to locktime) 3 seconds enemy ships sensors 21 base strenght of ecm 6 21/6 = 3,5 multiplicator for jamming time calibration =3,5 time to successfully jam the target 3 sec* 3,5 =10,5 seconds to jam an enemy bs for 20 seconds so u can jam the target all the time giving it a time window of 10,5 secs to reaquire lock and fire at u every 20 seconds. another calculation bs vs frigate: EW user BS EW receiver Frig time needed to calibrate (according to lockingtime) 11,2 enemy sensors 9 ecm strenght 6 9/6 =1,5 multiplicator for jamming time calibration =1,5 time to successfully jam the target 11,2 sec* 1,5 = 16,8 seconds to jam an enemy Frig for 20 seconds as u can see it needs longer to jam a smaller vessel since ur ecm needs longer to calibrate due to the smaller target. duration depentant ecm would also make eccm modules effectively increase ecm calibration time giving the EW receiver more time to act before a jam is successful. ok i hope this suggestion makes any sense to u so feel free to add ur ideas and suggestions. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2006.10.12 12:31:00 - [65] ^ i also wanted to mention that there was a proposal to add a cooldown phase to ecm modules some time ago and keeping the current chance based system so it might work similar giving the opponenet the chance of some spare time before the EW user can reactivate his ecm and start another chance based jam attempt. maybe my idea is going the same way but is too complicated to balance. so feel free to add ur opinion. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".

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