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Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9909	Posted - 2015.02.27 01:29:58 - [61] - Quote Ilaister wrote: Rain6637 wrote: I'm wondering why this is being addressed right now, after all this time. A couple things that come to mind are Sov and Drifters. Possibly related. . Possibly. There has also been a spate of people sitting just outside their POS shields and assigning fighters to frigate camps in lowsec = instadeath for anyone jumping in without a cloak. Aggro was assigned to the carrier, so no gateguns for the frigs to worry about. I fail to see why everyone's so mad. It's a broken mechanic. If you want the effects of your ship to be felt, you should be on grid risking it. Asking every gang who wants to take frigs into low to bring a) enough people and b) the right ships to deal with bumping a carrier into it's POS is missing the point a little. Crappy gameplay for all involved despite the 'imagination' shown by the risk-averse in their caps. The problem is "standard CCP operating procedure" . Step one: create a problem that sees an old mechanic that no one complained about become massively overpower in a narrow set of circumstances. Step 2: Nerf the old mechanic but leave the new stuff THAT CREATED THE PROBLEM completely alone. Don't forget to use a jackhammer to nerf something that only requires a scalpel. They did it when they nerfed fighter scan res because a few people abused a bug (while not even touching the faulty mechanic/bug), and it's happening again. Not the end of the world, but it's damn annoying to see it happen again and again.
Rroff Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 904	Posted - 2015.02.27 01:45:18 - [62] - Quote Ilaister wrote: Rain6637 wrote: I'm wondering why this is being addressed right now, after all this time. A couple things that come to mind are Sov and Drifters. Possibly related. . Possibly. There has also been a spate of people sitting just outside their POS shields and assigning fighters to frigate camps in lowsec = instadeath for anyone jumping in without a cloak. Aggro was assigned to the carrier, so no gateguns for the frigs to worry about. I fail to see why everyone's so mad. It's a broken mechanic. If you want the effects of your ship to be felt, you should be on grid risking it. Asking every gang who wants to take frigs into low to bring a) enough people and b) the right ships to deal with bumping a carrier into it's POS is missing the point a little. Crappy gameplay for all involved despite the 'imagination' shown by the risk-averse in their caps. If it was just people sitting on the edge of the FF doing it there would have been a lot less complaints, techniques are being used so that the carrier is to all intents and purposes immune to repercussion either by sitting right by the control tower with the FF down and the dialog open to bring it online or other ways of "misusing" pos mods to a similar effect. There are ways to resolve it without having the knock on effect on people using carriers in completely unrelated ways.
Ilaister Absolutely Certain 148	Posted - 2015.02.27 01:53:46 - [63] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: The problem is "standard CCP operating procedure" . Step one: create a problem that sees an old mechanic that no one complained about become massively overpower in a narrow set of circumstances. Step 2: Nerf the old mechanic but leave the new stuff THAT CREATED THE PROBLEM completely alone. Don't forget to use a jackhammer to nerf something that only requires a scalpel. They did it when they nerfed fighter scan res because a few people abused a bug (while not even touching the faulty mechanic/bug), and it's happening again. Not the end of the world, but it's damn annoying to see it happen again and again. First legit argument I've seen against the changes, I hope you make your argument that well in the post when it goes live. You realise you will be drowned out by all the ouin ouin from those that only ever bought their carrier to rat though. Perhaps it's best we bear in mind with a game this complex, and players this - zealous? - CCP will never be able to see all ends, and we can't see the code that needs reworking to fix it, nor the number of petitions generated etc etc.
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 20070	Posted - 2015.02.27 01:57:01 - [64] - Quote Just in case you forgot while reading page 3, UaE will take those useless carriers of your hands. UaE cares for your stuffs. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?* Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9909	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:02:54 - [65] - Quote Ilaister wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: The problem is "standard CCP operating procedure" . Step one: create a problem that sees an old mechanic that no one complained about become massively overpower in a narrow set of circumstances. Step 2: Nerf the old mechanic but leave the new stuff THAT CREATED THE PROBLEM completely alone. Don't forget to use a jackhammer to nerf something that only requires a scalpel. They did it when they nerfed fighter scan res because a few people abused a bug (while not even touching the faulty mechanic/bug), and it's happening again. Not the end of the world, but it's damn annoying to see it happen again and again. First legit argument I've seen against the changes, I hope you make your argument that well in the post when it goes live. You realise you will be drowned out by all the ouin ouin from those that only ever bought their carrier to rat though. Perhaps it's best we bear in mind with a game this complex, and players this - zealous? - CCP will never be able to see all ends, and we can't see the code that needs reworking to fix it, nor the number of petitions generated etc etc. My experience with CCP is that they won't listen, by the time they announce a change they've made their mind up. Their game so all good. But you'd think they'd know better by now, taking away fighters ability to warp is going to mean less carrier ratters (some still will, hell I carrier rat sometimes with sentries and an inertia stab fit) and carrier ratters getting caught is the beginning of much hilarious content. It's like CCP doesn't know how their game 'fits' together.
Ilaister Absolutely Certain 148	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:03:27 - [66] - Quote I also, am in the market for an Archon. Cap rigged though, not those weird Trimark fits.
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 297	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:06:56 - [67] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: I'm wondering why this is being addressed right now, after all this time. A couple things that come to mind are Sov and Drifters. Possibly related. CCP's motivation behind med clone cost removal was very self-serving. Yes, it was to the benefit of players, and for something new in the game (Drifters/Circadians podding us), but there was constant player support of their removal for years. That's why I call the change self-serving. Applying this possibility to other things on the horizon, like Sov and Drifters, the outcomes I imagine are comical. Killing Drifters will be necessary for maintaining Sov, or the new Sov system involves a grind mechanic that is exceptionally exploitable by something like fighter assist. If this is at all related to Drifters, I'm much rather see a different mechanic added to Drifters over just no more warping around.. Like, say, Drifters can seize control of Fighters/Bombers :) Or will aggres and one shot fighters on sight :) Personally I'm torn on it..The idea of Carriers launching fighters that can be assigned to a Frig and off to fight whatever is a little broken... Maybe some other changes could be, once they are beyond a Carriers control range, ALL Bonuses/SP that affects them is removed. So no bonus from the hull, no DDA's, no Fighters V, making them far weaker and less OP.. As for assign.. Maybe I donno.. one thought I had was make only some ships ABLE to use assigned drones. Like a role bonus, or as a module? Mod could be like polarized weapons, when enabled sets resists to 0? Or make only specific ships able to control them as a role bonus. That was you know what ship(s) to primary if you see a boatload of fighters and no carriers/supers? For the people complaining about SP.. HTFU. CCP has always said as long as you benefited from it before they won't give you back SP, not since Learning Skills were nuked. So we didn't get wasted SP back on things like Orca change (remind me, why did I need Mining Barge V?), or every other time they have nerfed a ship.. You got to use it for a while, or otherwise know that ships get changed..
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 41	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:08:39 - [68] - Quote CCP please reimburse carrier and supercarrier pilots. SP returned and isk returned. When you change a ship so much, it's only normal. After playing EVE since 2004, I still don't see CCP's thought process... A few abuse it, nerf it for all, instead of fixing the problem.
Ncc 1709 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Shadow of xXDEATHXx 125	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:09:53 - [69] - Quote well done... 2 years of skilling for a useless ship... just reduced my ratting income by 65% and you just forced all carriers back to using sentry drones (thought you were trying to avoid this one?)
Anhenka The Cult of Personality DARKNESS. 1117	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:10:41 - [70] - Quote d0cTeR9 wrote: CCP please reimburse carrier and supercarrier pilots. SP returned and isk returned. When you change a ship so much, it's only normal. No, it's not normal. It's never happened, it's never going to happen. Stop being such a baby and demanding everything because of a relatively minor nerf. (Except to ratting carriers, in which is it a significantly larger nerf)
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 41	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:13:00 - [71] - Quote Anhenka wrote: d0cTeR9 wrote: CCP please reimburse carrier and supercarrier pilots. SP returned and isk returned. When you change a ship so much, it's only normal. No, it's not normal. It's never happened, it's never going to happen. Stop being such a baby and demanding everything because of a relatively minor nerf. (Except to ratting carriers, in which is it a significantly larger nerf) Actually it has happened... But good try sounding smart. People have been telling CCP fix caps or reimburse, instead they chose nerf again so it's even more useless. That doesn't sound right to players that spent a long time training for them, even longer now, back in early eve caps skills weren't so intensive.
Sniper Smith Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 298	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:26:37 - [72] - Quote d0cTeR9 wrote: Actually it has happened... But good try sounding smart. SP has only ever been given back after a skill was removed from the game. Not just because they changed the ship and YOU (Or hell, everyone) think it's not useful anymore. CCP's made significant changes to lots of ships before, most of them had people cursing about how they were destroying it.. once or twice people were right, still, you never got your SP Back. It's not going to happen.
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 9910	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:28:06 - [73] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: d0cTeR9 wrote: Actually it has happened... But good try sounding smart. SP has only ever been given back after a skill was removed from the game. Not just because they changed the ship and YOU (Or hell, everyone) think it's not useful anymore. CCP's made significant changes to lots of ships before, most of them had people cursing about how they were destroying it.. once or twice people were right, still, you never got your SP Back. It's not going to happen. This is true, asking for SP back is a waste of time.
Kraft Ogburn Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.02.27 02:57:00 - [74] - Quote Rain6637 wrote: I'm wondering why this is being addressed right now, after all this time. A couple things that come to mind are Sov and Drifters. Possibly related. CCP's motivation behind med clone cost removal was very self-serving. Yes, it was to the benefit of players, and for something new in the game (Drifters/Circadians podding us), but there was constant player support of their removal for years. That's why I call the change self-serving. Applying this possibility to other things on the horizon, like Sov and Drifters, the outcomes I imagine are comical. Killing Drifters will be necessary for maintaining Sov, or the new Sov system involves a grind mechanic that is exceptionally exploitable by something like fighter assist. Give that man a cookie. I think he got it.
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 30619	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:11:34 - [75] - Quote Triage carriers will still be a thing, and lowsec PVP will remain a cesspool of gotcha game mechanic shenanigans. Outside of lowsec, triage carriers are still beast. Even if they only had ONE of their current capabilities of Triage, Drones, and Jump Drive, I still think they're underpriced. Their role of bailing out supercapitals is still valid. I'm not sorry to see any other capabilities of carriers get nerfed. Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 41	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:20:56 - [76] - Quote Sniper Smith wrote: d0cTeR9 wrote: Actually it has happened... But good try sounding smart. SP has only ever been given back after a skill was removed from the game. Not just because they changed the ship and YOU (Or hell, everyone) think it's not useful anymore. CCP's made significant changes to lots of ships before, most of them had people cursing about how they were destroying it.. once or twice people were right, still, you never got your SP Back. It's not going to happen. 2006, 2008, i got SP back when some changes were done. I'm sure other time's, but i recall those because it affected me :) Back to ceptor-online. Edit: 2004 too. Rain6637 wrote: Triage carriers will still be a thing, and lowsec PVP will remain a cesspool of gotcha game mechanic shenanigans. Outside of lowsec, triage carriers are still beast. Even if they only had ONE of their current capabilities of Triage, Drones, and Jump Drive, I still think they're underpriced. Their role of bailing out supercapitals is still valid. I'm not sorry to see any other capabilities of carriers get nerfed. So let's recapitulate: ceptor-online, aka catch me if you can online. noob ship > supers, aka bait super's online and blob them to death. don't be moving... anything via cyno/bridge. ishtar-online (maybe not anymore?... Gila online!!!). Well at least we got a cool shuttle out of this, and NPC's with real... balls :)
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 30622	Posted - 2015.02.27 03:59:14 - [77] - Quote Get-tackle-and-undock-triage online Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
Zekora Rally Negative Density 10	Posted - 2015.02.27 04:04:30 - [78] - Quote Rroff wrote: Gypsien Agittain wrote: Given that in a recent post you declared that you fly a Niddhogur, there's nothing else to be said as you're clearly disabled to discuss about capital ships. Nids have their niche - their local burst rep capabilities and bonused remote rep can be pretty useful for surprise attacks outnumbered where your working on the premise of crippling the other fleet before they are organised enough to turn the tables i.e. log on ambushing a multi-dread escalation fleet. A Chimera does that much better. Nids have been proven time and time again to be lackluster unless you are repping a structure. 99.9% of the time, one would be better of with an Archon.
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 2759	Posted - 2015.02.27 04:52:48 - [79] - Quote I'm getting tired of calling capital nerfs bullshit. I'm gonna start labeling this game as such now. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Rain6637 GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 30626	Posted - 2015.02.27 05:07:51 - [80] - Quote Here's a thought everyone is sure to like: Disallow capital things from affecting subcaps. Susceptible to subcaps, but helpless against them. Capitals business becomes restricted to structure grinding, and in turn, anti capital PVP. Want to pew subcaps? use subcap modules and drones. End fly-by-night capital gameplay forever. Don't post on the forums, devs don't read it. Send GMs your questions with support tickets. Don't be silent.
Daerrol Furtherance. 34	Posted - 2015.02.27 05:39:39 - [81] - Quote I find it interesting the only people I have seen IN GAME complain about skynet are notorious station campers and gang bangers. Whenever I found a skynet system, I just didn't go in there unless I wanted to die. I suppose it's annoying in the way it's annoying to a three year old to be told not to go into his parents room, but there are literally thousands of systems to visit, many uninhabited. If you were looking for a fair fight, Skynet users were never going to give you one to begin with... Those fighters will become an ECM Alt fast enough (Something I personally despise FAR more than assigned fighters)
Iudicium Vastus Incognito Holdings and Savings 318	Posted - 2015.02.27 05:50:08 - [82] - Quote Daerrol wrote: I find it interesting the only people I have seen IN GAME complain about skynet are notorious station campers and gang bangers. Whenever I found a skynet system, I just didn't go in there unless I wanted to die. I suppose it's annoying in the way it's annoying to a three year old to be told not to go into his parents room, but there are literally thousands of systems to visit, many uninhabited. If you were looking for a fair fight, Skynet users were never going to give you one to begin with... Those fighters will become an ECM Alt fast enough (Something I personally despise FAR more than assigned fighters) Yeah, people whined even though the tactic was severely limited in scope. I don't think I ever once saw someone freely roaming around in that sort of setup with a gang wrecking anything in their path making sure no one was safe. Nope, it's just limited to a defensive position in an entity's home system. And instead of just going around, they have to cry. [u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Gorski Car 489	Posted - 2015.02.27 06:15:33 - [83] - Quote Nothing of value was lost. Collect this post
HarlyQ Amok. Goonswarm Federation 64	Posted - 2015.02.27 06:23:26 - [84] - Quote d0cTeR9 wrote: CCP please reimburse carrier and supercarrier pilots. SP returned and isk returned. When you change a ship so much, it's only normal. After playing EVE since 2004, I still don't see CCP's thought process... A few abuse it, nerf it for all, instead of fixing the problem. Lol I'll buy your carriers off you if you don't want them anymore.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6548	Posted - 2015.02.27 06:31:47 - [85] - Quote Iudicium Vastus wrote: Daerrol wrote: I find it interesting the only people I have seen IN GAME complain about skynet are notorious station campers and gang bangers. Whenever I found a skynet system, I just didn't go in there unless I wanted to die. I suppose it's annoying in the way it's annoying to a three year old to be told not to go into his parents room, but there are literally thousands of systems to visit, many uninhabited. If you were looking for a fair fight, Skynet users were never going to give you one to begin with... Those fighters will become an ECM Alt fast enough (Something I personally despise FAR more than assigned fighters) Yeah, people whined even though the tactic was severely limited in scope. I don't think I ever once saw someone freely roaming around in that sort of setup with a gang wrecking anything in their path making sure no one was safe. Nope, it's just limited to a defensive position in an entity's home system. And instead of just going around, they have to cry. Doubtless it was because it was a timer ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears. Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers.
Jori McKie TURN LEFT The Camel Empire 204	Posted - 2015.02.27 07:01:36 - [86] - Quote I love all those tears from Skynet pilots, keep them coming. But as I'm a nice guy here is a hint: Get your **** on grid, it will still work, you can still use a full DPS/tracking Carrier but with much less tank compared to a full combat one. Choices guys, it is all about choices. "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." --áAbrazzar
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6319	Posted - 2015.02.27 07:40:20 - [87] - Quote Interesting nerf. I think this is a nerf that preceeds some new content Bring back DEEEEP Space!
McDarila Delusions of Adequacy Get Off My Lawn 15	Posted - 2015.02.27 07:45:32 - [88] - Quote I mixed on this, In a way I think overall its a good thing for pvp. The bad part is the pve in low/null only a complete idiot would take a carrior into a anom. Asign fighter(s) gave a 300 to 400 jump in dps, with out them your looking at deflation
Nasar Vyron S0utherN Comfort DARKNESS. 4	Posted - 2015.02.27 07:49:44 - [89] - Quote So does this mean the scan res nerf will get repealed? I do think taking the ability to assign fighters is yet another case of nerfing without thinking out every angle first it first like CCP has shown many times in the past. The nerf should have been to the number of fighters a super can assign. I.E. - Fighters take 25 bandwidth to control. The ship being assigned said fighters should have a minimum of 25 bandwidth to accept that fighter. So on and so forth until that ship is out of bandwidth. You can limit this further by causing a penalty to assigning, such as they lose the actual bonus provided by the super's passive, effectively turning them back into basic fighters w/module boosts. Is the carrier/super still "safe"? Yes. But it severely limits how many you will see on field. Outside of massive combat where slow cats or triage carriers are fielded (which while in triage bye bye fighter control) They can already put their fighters on field, so.. moot point. Just wanting to throw that out there as another option to look at before completely obliterating yet another aspect of a class of ships that takes a lot of time and effort to obtain and fly properly. Too many things in this game are getting hit by the recent actions of CCP making our time and assets less and less valuable of a resource.
Baneken Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light 477	Posted - 2015.02.27 08:08:43 - [90] - Quote Only cool thing about carrier was having special drones that follow you around as you warp but hey who likes cool things anyway and sentries/gecko's do a far better job then fighters in any case.

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