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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
932
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Posted - 2015.03.03 12:28:21 -
[871] - Quote
afkalt wrote: At the end of the day, people put faction fit marauders/T3/battleship on the line on field on a regular basis, but people are too scared to do the same with a capital which doesnt cost significantly more*....because why? Hell people fly in pods with multiple billions in low sec.
People need to get over the mental hurdles of committing caps to a fight, on grid.
*supers being stupid not withstanding
Somewhat its due to the logistics of replacing a capital and/or for some people a capital is the product of years of training and investment which is generally a higher order than even a pimp marauder.
You get over it a bit after losing the first capital - but I've still got my first thanny (survived 5-6 fights) and a bit of attachment to that particular one and while I'm not afraid to risk it on grid and have done so won't just throw it away. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
796
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 12:37:12 -
[872] - Quote
Rroff wrote:afkalt wrote: At the end of the day, people put faction fit marauders/T3/battleship on the line on field on a regular basis, but people are too scared to do the same with a capital which doesnt cost significantly more*....because why? Hell people fly in pods with multiple billions in low sec.
People need to get over the mental hurdles of committing caps to a fight, on grid.
*supers being stupid not withstanding
Somewhat its due to the logistics of replacing a capital and/or for some people a capital is the product of years of training and investment which is generally a higher order than even a pimp marauder. You get over it a bit after losing the first capital - but I've still got my first thanny (survived 5-6 fights) and a bit of attachment to that particular one and while I'm not afraid to risk it on grid and have done so won't just throw it away.
There is also the proclivity of the ENTIRE sector to dogpile - which no-one does for a mere pirate battleship. But that's because they are so rare, it becomes self-fulfilling.
The problems are psychological. I mean, let's take for example a common RnK hotdrop: 3 nestors, probably deadspace/faction fit. Half a dozen vindis in the same position, various other bits and bobs. I'd be willing to bet that the nestors alone would have an almost comparable cost to "cheaper" (i.e. not pimped) archons but are far squisher.
The barriers are purely in players minds - though you're right to mention the logistics of replacement, but that's not the end of the world.
I'd understand it more if there was skill point loss, nobody wants to retrain carrier V!
For me, I'm looking at it objectively, ignoring the cost and train (because that's NEVER a balance point - perhaps more specifically never a justification to something being broken) - imagine the reaction if high sec mission bears asked to project DPS from offgrid in essentially complete safety (given sufficient planning)? It would be an outrage - and rightly so.
The other acid test is - if these didn't exist today but people proposed adding them - what would the reaction be? You and I both know the answer to that. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
933
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 12:58:13 -
[873] - Quote
afkalt wrote: The other acid test is - if these didn't exist today but people proposed adding them - what would the reaction be? You and I both know the answer to that.
You'd never get an objective response to that proposal today anyhow a good bulk of players have no intention of flying capitals and/or only play eve in a disposable or flavour of the month manner and wouldn't be for anything that wasn't easy prey for an ishtar or stealth bomber. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
796
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:06:24 -
[874] - Quote
Very much so, if you consider it a carrier only thing.
However....."Gecko V2.0 - Super heavy drone 50m3, can be assigned to off grid fleet mates, battleship only drone".
Same mechanic, cost and skill time irrelevant (as they ought to be)...you honestly think people would go for that? I seriously doubt it. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
51
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:23:27 -
[875] - Quote
Kane Carnifex wrote: The removal of this feature will not increase the amount of battles as the most small gangs are totally unable to kill a carrier or even get through the active tank. So they will run away once they see a capital on Dscan or badphone for more people.
I think there are plenty of small gangs that could kill a full gank fit carrier on grid - i mean, if they are unable to kill it, why have it in/near the POS to start with? |
Cpt Patrick Archer
Quam Singulari Northern Associates.
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:24:46 -
[876] - Quote
afkalt wrote:Very much so, if you consider it a carrier only thing.
However....."Gecko V2.0 - Super heavy drone 50m3, can be assigned to off grid fleet mates, battleship only drone".
Same mechanic, cost and skill time irrelevant (as they ought to be)...you honestly think people would go for that? I seriously doubt it.
That discussion is not very relevant I don't think.
The fact is that we have this awesome feature, had it for years. Sure it's not very balanced and definitely needs tweaking, but removing is not the answer. As I hope to God, CCP can guess if they count the replies to this thread.
The problem with the figher assists is that the carrier can't be killed, apart from a very lucky and welltimed drive-by. If this is changed I think the feature is perfectly balanced. Sure the fighters will still be powerful, but that is no different than a frigate being less powerful than a well-fit/well-flown destroyer or cruiser that is specifically designed to kill those frigates. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
5013
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:33:11 -
[877] - Quote
Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again.
@ccp_rise
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
934
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:40:52 -
[878] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again.
I really wish you actually meant assist.
Good job on ignoring everything said here and going along with what you originally planned all along. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
1102
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:42:03 -
[879] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again.
boo!!! , always relenting on the tougher decisions, things that just need deleting like drone assist and fighter warping, i mean seriously they are just drones aren't they? why should they warp? what is the point of them being able too warp?
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists.
ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone/fighter assist mechanic.
Nerf web strength ..... Make the blaster eagle worth using please.
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Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1110
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:44:48 -
[880] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm still waiting for even one of these risk averse cowards to explain why, in a world where people are against off grid boosting, they think off grid DPS is somehow "ok"....Cost and training time are not a reason. Man up, put it on grid. If you don't have the fortitude for that risk, stop flying it. Hell you get change out 1.5b for an archon these days. People lose ships worth that on a daily basis. It has been explained countless times in this thread, but we forgive you for not reading. All one has to do is look at the Revenant KM to be able to laugh at anyone saying skynetting is 100% safe, but we are willing to sacrifice a bit; namely, have a bubble around a POS from which you cannot delegate fighters from.
Yup. I'll just make sure to have my 700,000,000,000 worth of Titans around to camp the guys log off spot with bubbles and yolo him :-).
Also it was a revenant. Skynet or not people want to kill those.
100% is an absolute, nothing is 100%. 99.9 is the correct option :-)
Yaay!!!!
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Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
51
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:46:11 -
[881] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
What about being able to point Fighters to prevent them warping? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1027
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:47:49 -
[882] - Quote
disappoint |
Phoenix Jones
Isogen 5
1110
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:47:58 -
[883] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again. boo!!! , always relenting on the tougher decisions, things that just need deleting like drone assist and fighter warping, i mean seriously they are just drones aren't they? why should they warp? what is the point of them being able too warp?
I can understand why CCP would bend on that. It's a smaller issue to be honest and beyond this sole point, nobody's really complained about it. One side wanted to keep it because it saves them a few hundred million, the otherside saw it as a way to get a few hundred million of lost fighters. Really it's semantics atm. The bigger issue was addressed.
If an abusive issue can be found with warping fighters, say your piece (or it should have been said already). We didn't hear it. The only thing I would request is to slow fighter warp if they are warping at the speed of a frigate (battle cruiser warp speed would work for these). That would be the only thing I would change. They keep warp, just warp slower.
Yaay!!!!
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
934
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:54:37 -
[884] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Kane Carnifex wrote: The removal of this feature will not increase the amount of battles as the most small gangs are totally unable to kill a carrier or even get through the active tank. So they will run away once they see a capital on Dscan or badphone for more people.
I think there are plenty of small gangs that could kill a full gank fit carrier on grid - i mean, if they are unable to kill it, why have it in/near the POS to start with?
Also means with this change you've gone from having a usually safe carrier (that can occasionally be caught if the user gets lazy/messes up) to the carrier not being there at all with the feature removed... some of the options give a bit more balance where people would continue to use carriers for this kind of thing but with reduced effectiveness and a higher chance of being caught by the prepared :S |
Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
617
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 13:54:56 -
[885] - Quote
I love that people are complaining about Rise not removing fighter warping when literally no good arguments have been presented for doing so.
I'd wager that for most of these people, the real reason they want it removed is to spite carrier/supercarrier pilots.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Cpt Patrick Archer
Quam Singulari Northern Associates.
33
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Posted - 2015.03.03 13:59:38 -
[886] - Quote
It's obvious that something needed to changed, but CCP clearly doesn't have the funds/priority/isn't pro-acitve towards fixing a feature. It's better to remove it completely because that saves a lot of hours/days of programming, and people will stay subscribed nontheless..
It's a damn ******* shame, but at least we've got pretty much 43 pages of people protesting this 'improvement'. If subscriptions decade we can just say "I told you so" even though it probably won't be the cause
In any case; remote sebo and tracking/dmg thanny's here we come! Add a triage archon and all the infidels coming into my system will still go out in pods. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
796
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 14:00:47 -
[887] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm still waiting for even one of these risk averse cowards to explain why, in a world where people are against off grid boosting, they think off grid DPS is somehow "ok"....Cost and training time are not a reason. Man up, put it on grid. If you don't have the fortitude for that risk, stop flying it. Hell you get change out 1.5b for an archon these days. People lose ships worth that on a daily basis. It has been explained countless times in this thread, but we forgive you for not reading. All one has to do is look at the Revenant KM to be able to laugh at anyone saying skynetting is 100% safe, but we are willing to sacrifice a bit; namely, have a bubble around a POS from which you cannot delegate fighters from.
So because bad players are bad; unbalanced broken mechanics should stay?
I assume you're well aware of the deadspace method of protecting supers? |
Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1613
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 14:02:02 -
[888] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm still waiting for even one of these risk averse cowards to explain why, in a world where people are against off grid boosting, they think off grid DPS is somehow "ok"....Cost and training time are not a reason. Man up, put it on grid. If you don't have the fortitude for that risk, stop flying it. Hell you get change out 1.5b for an archon these days. People lose ships worth that on a daily basis. It has been explained countless times in this thread, but we forgive you for not reading. All one has to do is look at the Revenant KM to be able to laugh at anyone saying skynetting is 100% safe, but we are willing to sacrifice a bit; namely, have a bubble around a POS from which you cannot delegate fighters from.
Yeah we should totally all setup logoff traps over a week and then wait for our watchlist to go blinky a few days later to hot drop some titans so a roaming gang can jump a gate after their scout got wrecked by assisted fighters... |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
796
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 14:04:03 -
[889] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:afkalt wrote:I'm still waiting for even one of these risk averse cowards to explain why, in a world where people are against off grid boosting, they think off grid DPS is somehow "ok"....Cost and training time are not a reason. Man up, put it on grid. If you don't have the fortitude for that risk, stop flying it. Hell you get change out 1.5b for an archon these days. People lose ships worth that on a daily basis. It has been explained countless times in this thread, but we forgive you for not reading. All one has to do is look at the Revenant KM to be able to laugh at anyone saying skynetting is 100% safe, but we are willing to sacrifice a bit; namely, have a bubble around a POS from which you cannot delegate fighters from. Yeah we should totally all setup logoff traps over a week and then wait for our watchlist to go blinky a few days later to hot drop some titans so a roaming gang can jump a gate after their scout got wrecked by assisted fighters...
None of which matters a single iota if the super is 5000km deep in deadspace.
But bless, they're really trying to show that because people not doing it properly die, it is therefore balanced. |
Cpt Patrick Archer
Quam Singulari Northern Associates.
33
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 14:16:44 -
[890] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Appreciate all the feedback very much.
We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again.
I think we are all looking forward to that day.
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Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
311
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:19:32 -
[891] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
So, Fighters warping in to do ... WHAT? |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
660
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 14:21:19 -
[892] - Quote
Well I am glad to see fighter warping still in which means carriers will still be viable for PvE, I would have face palmed for 10 minutes if you had removed fighter warping, and my face has only just recovered from the D-scan immunity on combat recons....
EDIT: For those of you who do not understand the issue carriers often warp in and align and the fighters are quite slow and often end up being many KM away, so if you get someone come for you you warp out. Without the warp you would lose 300m of fighters each time which means using a carrier is stupid based on the amount of times that you will have to warp out in the majority of 0.0 space.
Ella's Snack bar
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Kane Carnifex
Yard Evolution The Kadeshi
14
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:22:04 -
[893] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again.
Hello CCP Rise,
I didn't saw any good point against it but many for it. Is it a real problem which small/medium gangs get raped when they search for juice ganks? As this was my first time in a Forum trying to raise my voice i am disappointed neither i got a good discussion running or good feedback about my points. I have the feeling my voice just died under all these small scale pvp player which have a problem with fighters as they search for easy kills.
Why does CCP always thinks in grey zones and in this time you go Black or White and nothing between....
This is the 3rd nerf i see in my capital time and i still don't have the feeling which my capitals are OP.
Thank you for opening this Thread, unfortunately it doesn-Št has any impact if you write in it or not.
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Aiyshimin
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
422
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:26:20 -
[894] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again.
Removing it compeletely is not the right solution. Please spend some actual effort in solving the risk-free aspect of POS skynet, and go ahead with rebalancing capital ships. No reason to wait with that.
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Primary This Rifter
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
618
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:32:29 -
[895] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again. Removing it compeletely is not the right solution. Please spend some actual effort in solving the risk-free aspect of POS skynet, and go ahead with rebalancing capital ships. No reason to wait with that. I don't think you understand. Rise only has the ability to change about a dozen values in between releases.
Reminder: CCP thinks you have no right to your alliance logos.
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Gypsien Agittain
University of Caille Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:33:15 -
[896] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again. boo!!! , always relenting on the tougher decisions, things that just need deleting like drone assist and fighter warping, i mean seriously they are just drones aren't they? why should they warp? what is the point of them being able too warp?
Because they're drones but more expensive than the average shitp you fly, because on the lore they've pilots, because they're the size of a cruiser, because how they're constructed. You should shut up and keep on flying cruisers John Snow.
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Cpt Patrick Archer
Quam Singulari Northern Associates.
33
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:36:05 -
[897] - Quote
Kane Carnifex wrote: Hello CCP Rise,
I didn't saw any good point against it but many for it. Is it a real problem which small/medium gangs get raped when they search for juice ganks? As this was my first time in a Forum trying to raise my voice i am disappointed neither i got a good discussion running or good feedback about my points. I have the feeling my voice just died under all these small scale pvp player which have a problem with fighters as they search for easy kills.
Why does CCP always thinks in grey zones and in this time you go Black or White and nothing between....
This is the 3rd nerf i see in my capital time and i still don't have the feeling which my capitals are OP.
Thank you for opening this Thread, unfortunately it doesn-Št has any impact if you write in it or not.
This reply is spot-on sir. Couldn't have said it any better. |
Kane Carnifex
Yard Evolution The Kadeshi
17
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:47:12 -
[898] - Quote
Primary This Rifter wrote: I don't think you understand. Rise only has the ability to change about a dozen values in between releases.
The Value is assign fighter 0 or 1. As i already said this is black and white and i am used from CCP about 50 shades of grey.
Cpt Patrick Archer wrote: This reply is spot-on sir. Couldn't have said it any better.
Thanks, my last hope are some good arguments from CCP which explains their black/white decisions and helps me to understand.
CCP, i appreciate which you allow us to give you a feedback but this is not how i imagine a constructive discussion.
IMHO: A lot of people just trolled in this thread and didn-Št really helped to find a solution. |
afkalt
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
796
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 14:50:58 -
[899] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again. Removing it compeletely is not the right solution. Please spend some actual effort in solving the risk-free aspect of POS skynet, and go ahead with rebalancing capital ships. No reason to wait with that.
Because they'll spend time and money sorting POS mechanics and people will just hide in dead space pockets and nothing will change. They don't do that today because the POS is mechanically easier but if there's one thing we know about EVE players - effort knows no bounds when it gives a stupid advantage.
So the list is actually stations, POS AND deadspace - and you can bet your bottom dollar that's some legacy ass code so old it's probably haunted. |
Dictateur Imperator
Babylon Knights DARKNESS.
12
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:53:28 -
[900] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Hello
Appreciate all the feedback very much.
Based on what you've said here we are planning to leave Fighter warping in, but stick with removing assist.
We hear the concerns about the state of capitals and loss of return on investment from training towards them and we absolutely want to make sure that caps of all kinds are not only viable but exciting and powerful. We still feel this change is necessary, but we are looking into ways to improve on the state of capitals and capital balance. No news on that front for now but it's something we are committed to improving.
Thanks again.
So i have the solution for you to remove skynet and have all player happy: MAKE CHANGE THE DAY WHO YOU REBALANCE CAPITAL NOT BEFORE.
I start to think you don't have a game design diploma... sorry to said this but you want risk vs reward, make this. Proof to me scent is bad on risk vs reward, and i can proof to you is not. Player can kill carrier/super near pos (yes yes they can if they are not just 10 in inty...). So yes they need to have more of 1 is for 10-20 is kill on the grid.
I think the more important problem for CCP developer is you see ris vs reward for people who want create ressources... BUT for some people the good ressource is KM. So make more ris vs reward to have a good KM.
Player want follow CCP to have more strategical game, so not only more difficult for people who rat/mining/explo, but for ALL player, means bad roam can only trap ship with little value, and people with more preparation better player, who are ready to take risk can have good KM.
Really i don't care about player who cry because they die cause of skynet actually. You have a lot of target without skynet. And if you are skynet it's a luck : find the carrier, make into to other roam and go to tackle/kill the carrier near is pos by surprise, nothing else. If you are very little roam : just change system to roam. |
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