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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Splodger
Ausbruch HYDRA RELOADED
9
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Posted - 2011.12.05 12:00:00 -
[91] - Quote
[quote=Mr Kidd]CCP Greyscal wrote:
Quote: - I appreciate that this changes.....
Honestly what the hell do you want from wormhole space?
1) You want ccp to remove poses...fine but you dont need a pos to live in a a system - an orca will do....and make wormhole space look even more deserted.
2) You want to remove poco's - ok but what the hell are you going to do once your tired of chaining you static for pew or fancy a change this would create a wormhole system of c1-c3's that people can "farm" nomadically because basically thats what your asking for here.
removing team work from c5-c6 due to force needed - honestly do you want a c1-c4's that you can solo by yourself so you dont have to play with anyone?
3) Remove API data - why not it doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things. (your an idiot to think it favours attackers, carebears can use it aswell to see if anyone has jumped into their system).
You ask for removing API data in favour of attackers, but why not remove using probes to see if a new wormwhole signature is present or even ask for wormhole system to be greater than 24 au so those in a system under 14au are safer than those who arnt?
You have no sense of balance in your posting and i would not want it to ruin wormhole space beyond more than it needs to. |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
23
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Posted - 2011.12.05 12:42:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Blood Fart wrote:If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole? Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens. In this particular situation, ensuring that w-space starbase logistics would be "balanced" after this change would first require us to have a long discussion about how difficult w-space logistics should be in the first place, which would likely end up spilling across into a lot of other areas of w-space mechanics. Given how ingenious and adaptable w-space dwellers have proved to be in the past, and how minor this adjustment seemed when compared to the difficulties of setting up shop in w-space in the first place, we figured that the majority of these players would simply roll with the changes regardless, so we postponed the big balancing discussion until we have time to look at it properly, and implemented the starbase changes as-is in the meantime. Obviously we're not in a position to make authoritative statements about things that will occur in the future (due to a lack of time-travel technology), but our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.
Thumbs up. I think it's a good design philosophy.
I just want to say that when WH dwellers have difficulties with logistics, UI or other game mechanics, it is sometimes a symptom of issues that are universal but more profound in WHs. The bookmark situation is the perfect example. Corps in WHs had to make up some makeshift solutions, but the impracticality of bookmarks was universal. Some of the issues with POS'es and corp roles are also universal even if people in WHs feel it the most.
In regards to the API I always felt it was silly that the API exported data about WH traffic, and I applaud that this has been limited. I'd prefer if WHs were exempt from all public statistics that is normally available on the starmap. |
Shenra Twrin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 12:43:00 -
[93] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:@ Soundwave
PLS dont nerf WH-Space because some carebears get ganked and cry here.
I would say 80% of all WH kills are the product of bad or no scouting most of them dont even have probes out then they are farming sites.. its like lalalalala making bilions of isk and be secure just like in highsec im lonely in my system and nobody gank me lalala brain afk....
WH is an really cool space dont change it please. You need to scout a lot u need much team work and also a good logistic....
but many carebears only see the money in wh and get thier ass ganked like they should because they dont do it right....
I want to say that, I see SOOOOOOO many so ***** builded pos with no hardners or just a fkn fail setup or they fly without any probes... and wtf 3-6man coorps in whs they are supposed to get thier pos destoryed... ( in c3+)
WH-Space is not ISKmakingWonderland and if they dont know how to live there they shouldnt do... SO Carebears gtfo WH go in your cotton-sec and fly lvl4 or mine veldspar
tl:dr with less hate
WH-space is fine ( ok api stuff is questionable) but rest more than ok....To the Cap to escalate a site stfu ... yeah u need good logistics and just build it in wh or buy it in low/0.0 and fly it in.... you make more than enough money in wh....
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
60
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Posted - 2011.12.05 12:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.
Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Arklight Project Fade 2 Black
34
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Posted - 2011.12.05 12:53:00 -
[95] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.
Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind.
It's like forcing people into low/nullsec. They won't go, they will quit. I totally support this, don't nerf working w-space. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing. |
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CCP Soundwave
C C P C C P Alliance
278
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Posted - 2011.12.05 13:21:00 -
[96] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.
Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind.
I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed.
On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
665
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Posted - 2011.12.05 13:32:00 -
[97] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.
Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind. I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed. On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.
Hey Hey HEY!
Not too easy I hope. Be careful not to nerf the spirit out of them. Yeah, POS mechanics would be a nice change... more control over corp hangars, allowing people to have specific roles at one POS but not another, things like that. Being able to refit T3 subsystems at a POS... dude, we'd love ya for that.
I'll have to agree... I don't see this as a nerf at all, what you've done so far. Yeah, it's wierd to have something taken away and easy to over-react before thinking things through... but most people I've talked to don't really care that the jump info is gone. Hey, if we lose it, so do they. We adapt.
You know what would be nice... ice. I'd love a supply of ice in wormholes. Maybe also getting rid of (or softening) the penalties on refining arrays... those are brutal. For the love of the gods, however, no moon goo. Leave the goo to the safe spaces, please. Not interested in the hassle.
You know... if you wanted to offer hints of what "related changes" you all are looking into, no one would complain... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Arklight Project Fade 2 Black
34
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Posted - 2011.12.05 13:33:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.
Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind. I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed. On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.
Granted if you remove the still existing APIs for w-space. I really appreciate the changes to POS management and especially the Corp BMs. Eve community: An angry mob of bright people hunting witches, more torches, more hay forks, growing and growing. |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
3
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Posted - 2011.12.05 13:47:00 -
[99] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Make WH kills information delayed by 48+ hours? You still get historical data on activity levels of the hole but no live intel. It's exploration space, you shouldn't get any data. Even delayed it's incredibly important information. The lack of intel means it's a dangerous place to be, but it should work both ways, it should also shield you from outsiders knowing about you. +1
The logic of "no local" (which is awesome by the way) should apply to the API too.
People in wormholes should be completely off of the grid, I'd even go as far as saying they should show as offline as soon as they go inside but I imagine that would cause all kinds of peculiar problems.
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Qual
Cornexant Research
5
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:13:00 -
[100] - Quote
Durzel wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Make WH kills information delayed by 48+ hours? You still get historical data on activity levels of the hole but no live intel. It's exploration space, you shouldn't get any data. Even delayed it's incredibly important information. The lack of intel means it's a dangerous place to be, but it should work both ways, it should also shield you from outsiders knowing about you. +1 The logic of "no local" (which is awesome by the way) should apply to the API too. People in wormholes should be completely off of the grid, I'd even go as far as saying they should show as offline as soon as they go inside but I imagine that would cause all kinds of peculiar problems.
Aye. This I how it was when it went out. I see the whole API thing as an oversight and by extension a bug. Good riddence with the part that is allready gone. Party when its all gone.
---
What I would like to see next was a few regions with 0.0 mechanics + no local added as alternative exits to wh space. This would be high end 0.0 with no local and no easy access to empire. Truely a "new world". |
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
60
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Rek Seven wrote:I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.
Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind. I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed. On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.
Oh, i have no problem with removing the API information from wormholes as long as everyone is on a level playing field... I just don't want to see w-space changed to suit your old design plans instead of you embracing what the players have turned them into.
However, i think we urgently need more tools and content in WH to enable them to continue being ideal homes for small but dedicated corporations... What's going to happen when every sub C3 WH is defended by a capital fleet? |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
60
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: You know what would be nice... ice. I'd love a supply of ice in wormholes. Maybe also getting rid of (or softening) the penalties on refining arrays... those are brutal. For the love of the gods, however, no moon goo. Leave the goo to the safe spaces, please. Not interested in the hassle.
Hey dude o/
I agree with this but i think it should be vary rare that you find a grav site with ice in it.. then perhaps i wouldn't instantly ignore any sig that wasn't a WH or combat site |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
665
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Posted - 2011.12.05 14:55:00 -
[103] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: You know what would be nice... ice. I'd love a supply of ice in wormholes. Maybe also getting rid of (or softening) the penalties on refining arrays... those are brutal. For the love of the gods, however, no moon goo. Leave the goo to the safe spaces, please. Not interested in the hassle.
Hey dude o/ I agree with this but i think it should be vary rare that you find a grav site with ice in it.. then perhaps i wouldn't instantly ignore any sig that wasn't a WH or combat site
That would work, or even adding the legendary comets.
Stay away from my badgers! Badger badger badger badger badger Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Kwashi
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
1
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:30:00 -
[104] - Quote
My 0.02 isk on removing API information from wormholes:
Jumping into a previous unexplored system and piecing together the recent history of the place from killboards, API and scan data and probe hits is pretty much the most interesting thing about wormspace for me. You get to play Sherlock Holmes! You see a wreck, who made it? What was the time of death? What was the murder weapon? Where is the perpetrator now? In my opinion having the API data in there to help tell the story is a good thing. Because nine times out of ten something has happened in there and you missed it, so if you're not going to get a fight you can at least play vicariously through the story :D |
Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
120
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:38:00 -
[105] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Stay away from my badgers! Badger badger badger badger badger
Mushroom, MUSHROOM! |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
75
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:39:00 -
[106] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:
On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.
So we have to wait until the next major patch to be able to fit our ships at SMAs again? As it is now, Crucible effectively broke SMAs by introducing a huge bug affecting everybody where there's a giant amount of lag removing/putting on one module to the point the OS shuts down the client for not responding. |
Malkev
22
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:46:00 -
[107] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:So we have to wait until the next major patch to be able to fit our ships at SMAs again? As it is now, Crucible effectively broke SMAs by introducing a huge bug affecting everybody where there's a giant amount of lag removing/putting on one module to the point the OS shuts down the client for not responding. Maybe they can get a quick fix out that also includes the ability to reconfigure T3's at SMA's! /extremewishfulthinking |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
43
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Posted - 2011.12.05 18:59:00 -
[108] - Quote
Personally I think WH space is fine. I understand the dev's arguments (which don't seem to be that WH's are not to be colonized, but instead they didn't make them specifically with that in mind). WH space is very much a place of "here it is, make due with whatever is there".
And the big thing I guess is the definition of long term habitation. I tend to disagree with the OP's seeming argument that "daytripping" is the converse of long term living in a WH.
To put it in perspective I look at Null, which may be the closest compariston. In null, corps and alliances can take over systems, upgrade them and do all kinds of things to make it "theirs". And as such they do this for the long term generally, fighting to keep those systems etc.
WH space doesn't have any of this. And while higher class WH's may have more "permanent" residents, many C3's and down are much more transient in nature. Sure a corp may take up residence for 6 months, even a year. But many will still pull out after awhile. Then maybe move back at a later date to a new WH.
Personally I think keeping WH space for this kind of life is perfect. Make it too easy and WH space will just get even more crowded than it already is. |
sembur
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 19:54:00 -
[109] - Quote
Hathrul wrote:All id like in wormhole space is to be made more dangerous. less intel, less warning. I know I'm not the only one who prefers to spin a large web and wait for flies to pass through. Quite simply, removing API data from wspace will make it less dangerous, not more. It was easier finding targets when I could count jumps from the API, even if it didn't make sense. I'll adapt, but I won't have as sensitive a web. If you remove kills data, I'll adapt, but I won't have as sensitive a web.
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Malkev
22
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Posted - 2011.12.05 20:11:00 -
[110] - Quote
sembur wrote:Quite simply, removing API data from wspace will make it less dangerous, not more. It was easier finding targets when I could count jumps from the API, even if it didn't make sense. You contradict your original statement immediately after making it. If it's harder for you to find targets, doesn't that make your possible targets safer? How will not having any intel handed to you make it less dangerous? The unknown is what makes w-space dangerous in the first place.
The majority of kills come from being in the right place at the right time anyways. I don't think I've gotten a kill because the API data showed me jumps or NPC kills; I've gotten kills because I see wrecks and ships on scan without a tower in range, or I've been bouncing in and out of the constellation throughout the day and finally catch sight of something.
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Trainwreck McGee
Ghost Ship Inc.
145
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Posted - 2011.12.05 20:15:00 -
[111] - Quote
Its really sad to me that the greatest feature added by CCP is MUCH better then they intended. And now they want to nerf it down to the usual mediocre state of added EVE features.
And especially with intrusions being so horribly balanced why the **** are you nerfing WH?
CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool |
Erestas Drake
Pirannha Corp
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 22:02:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cant sympathize with OP. Lived in WHs on and off since Apocrypha came out, from small trips to dozen of billions in permanent settlements.
API info should be removed completely, its laughable easy to assess potential targets and evaluate security of your home system with this info.
Same goes for logistics. Now it depends ofc where you choose to live, but if you know what your doing logistics are easily managable. You need more time, more ppl and have greater risks to steadily supply a 40 man 0.0 corp even with JFs and JBs then a 60 man C5 settlement.
There is no question that living in a WH is tedious at times, but this is "by design" (even if it is probably not consciously done by ccp) Placing guards because of lack of local. Return to scanning every time you have a new connection (at least BM distribution is now "fixed") Waiting for sizeable groups to be online to run sites. Waiting for a few pvp kills.
And it damn well should be tedious. The amount of money that WHs spew out when run effectively is ludicrous (ofc you can loose it fast as well), and when your sick of scanning, and bookmarking and waiting for kills after 6 months and want things to improve, then get a vacation from WHs. By then you will have enough ISK to pay for your account a couple of years anyway.
WHs dont need "personal storages", dont need moon mining, or god forbid upgradable systems and stations or any other "major" improvments. There fine and balanced for the amount of work they need and ISKs they pay out.
Granted things that should improve are the small mechanic problems that drive one insane, like T3 refits, beeing unable to open containers from inside the CHAs, hangar rights and role management that actually makes sense, repacking in CHAs and so on. |
sembur
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
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Posted - 2011.12.05 22:07:00 -
[113] - Quote
Now that you're done editing...
Malkev wrote:sembur wrote:Quite simply, removing API data from wspace will make it less dangerous, not more. The majority of kills come from being in the right place at the right time anyways. I don't think I've gotten a kill because the API data showed me jumps or NPC kills; I've gotten kills because I see wrecks and ships on scan without a tower in range, or I've been bouncing in and out of the constellation throughout the day and finally catch sight of something.
Just because you don't use a tool to get kills, doesn't mean that I don't get more kills because the tool is there. As I said, I know I'm not the only person in wspace who uses more sophisticated means of locating targets than simply tripping over them.
As I said, I'll adapt if this is removed, but CCP should not harbor the illusion that this will make space more dangerous. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
382
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Posted - 2011.12.05 22:31:00 -
[114] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Hauling Hal wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Another thing that's used a lot to create information on WH people is the killmails which they produce. Maybe look into removing location data from that as well, or would that be one step too far? If I kill someone in a wormhole, please don't prevent me from telling anyone. I don't care if the person that died doesn't want me to. Agreeing with this.
KM location may has well be the Constellation name where the WH entry is. Doesn't provide the system and so the actual location. |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
39
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:01:00 -
[115] - Quote
While you're fixing wormhole related stuff:
How does concord magically find my ship when I jump into K-space from a wh system ? That intel should be unavailable from local until I land on a gate
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Hauling Hal
The Black Ops
29
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:04:00 -
[116] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Hauling Hal wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Another thing that's used a lot to create information on WH people is the killmails which they produce. Maybe look into removing location data from that as well, or would that be one step too far? If I kill someone in a wormhole, please don't prevent me from telling anyone. I don't care if the person that died doesn't want me to. Agreeing with this. KM location may has well be the Constellation name where the WH entry is. Doesn't provide the system and so the actual location.
Err, I know where I killed him, so why can't I post that on my killmail? Like I said, I don't care if the dead person doesn't want anyone to know where he died. Likewise, if I die, why can't I let people know? |
Hauling Hal
The Black Ops
29
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:08:00 -
[117] - Quote
Ya Huei wrote:While you're fixing wormhole related stuff: How does concord magically find my ship when I jump into K-space from a wh system ? That intel should be unavailable from local until I land on a gate
Because you are in K-space. DUH! |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
39
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:24:00 -
[118] - Quote
Hauling Hal wrote:Ya Huei wrote:While you're fixing wormhole related stuff: How does concord magically find my ship when I jump into K-space from a wh system ? That intel should be unavailable from local until I land on a gate Because you are in K-space. DUH!
According to CCP local is constructed from intel gathered by pilot's use of the stargates. ergo, no use of stargates, no popping up in local.
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L Salander
Bite me inc. Narwhals Ate My Duck
11
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:27:00 -
[119] - Quote
I distinctly remember CCP talking about wormholes as a new kind of space that would promote "nomad" styles of play from corps, rather than giant mega-alliance kingdoms and the like in nullsec. Now they're backpeddling on that and trying to pretend wormholes were intended to be day-trip style pockets? That's BS, maybe c1s and c2s count for that, but c5/c6 were clearly never meant to be like that - nothing about them suggests that. To be honest, using API calls for intel is something I don't much care for, it seems kind of 'cheap' or an unintended side effect, so I'd be fine with removing that... but remove all of the API intel for wormholes as OP said, rather than making it one-sided by leaving equally 'cheap'/unintended API calls that benefit only attacking fleets. |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
39
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Posted - 2011.12.12 15:38:00 -
[120] - Quote
No decent WH corp is going to care much about the removal of API info for wormholes.
We're all used to providing our own intel and security. This change might be bad for the tiny operations or the people that log their WH alts once a week to farm sites.
to be honest, the motto should be: work for your intel, or get out of w-space.
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