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inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.14 14:59:00 - [1] Cross-pulled from general discussion: Clicky. Good that we're the first to hear of it.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:01:00 - [2] Like I said, potts will be happy (im growing rather fond of passive shield tanks myself). And it certainly makes them a lot more useful for large gang/fleetwork. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
without	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:03:00 - [3] will most definitly get a +xyz to shield recharge time too , but then again they are letting tux do the changes so who knows
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:14:00 - [4] Originally by: without will most definitly get a +xyz to shield recharge time too , but then again they are letting tux do the changes so who knows Hopefully, but I wouldn't be suprised to see it give just an increase to shield HP resulting in overpowered passive shield tanks.
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:23:00 - [5] Extra sheild is always nice. But when you are talking about a BS the extra boost is far better. I am just glad I didn't buy them yet. Will have to wait and see. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:30:00 - [6] To people saying they're over powered, they're really expensive for a full set. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:31:00 - [7] If they change it to a HP bonus it will be crap (mission runner so a buffer is worthless for me and my recharge rate gets nerfed) but bearable for me , but very overpowered on some setups. If they change it to a HP bonus AND shield recharge penalty, I want RMA on my implants . They would be quite a bit weaker than the armor HP boost ones too seeing how shields have 20 less total base resistance. They should just leave them as is and make the armor ones a boost-bonus as well. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.14 15:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Leandro Salazar If they change it to a HP bonus it will be crap (mission runner so a buffer is worthless for me and my recharge rate gets nerfed) Why? Your recharge rate will stay the same unless they specifically nerf it, so all it does is make passive setups very viable. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.14 16:00:00 - [9] Passive tank gimps non-drone DPS. A lot. So a the same time it nerfs mission efficiency. The best ship to use HP boosting crystals on would be the Dominix. Some really hilarious setups for AFK missioning there. But for a Raven, it would be harsh nerf. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.14 16:13:00 - [10] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Passive tank gimps non-drone DPS. A lot. That depends entirely on whether they release DC IIs and just how much of a shield recharge you can get with 2 PDU II + DC II + Full set of shield hp/regen boosting implants and a passive tank. So I'm going to reserve my judgement until the inevitable Pottsey report :) ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Care Blind Gallente Yumpalistic Industrial	Posted - 2006.10.14 16:17:00 - [11] change shield boost bonus on ships to shield hp and its all good
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Blood of the Innocents	Posted - 2006.10.14 16:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Snikkt To people saying they're over powered, they're really expensive for a full set. hmm...I wonder why they are really expensive... ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:33:00 - [13] Edited by: Pottsey on 14/10/2006 17:34:27 ôPassive tank gimps non-drone DPS. A lot.ö No they do not. There is no reason not to fit a few damage mods. Just because you have the option to using every single slot to boost the tank does not mean you have to. I normally use 2 to 4 slots that have nothing to do with tanking. In fact I recommend taking damage mods or other modules. You donÆt want 7 relays on a domi or cap will be a problem unless you use Nos. The difference between 5 or 7 relays is large so its useful to use 2 to 3 modules on something else. Saying that some ships like the Raven pretty poor even with every slots as a passive tank so you donÆt want to fit damage mods. Others like my Eos are ok great even if none tanking modules. O and the Crystal sets not a nerf its a boost :) Passive shield tanking guide click here
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.14 17:57:00 - [14] Originally by: Pottsey O and the Crystal sets not a nerf its a boost :) I somehow foresaw this post long before it was made.
Doragee Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:17:00 - [15] At least i will set back my timetable for cybernetics 5 for the last missing Epsilon... ...and i'm atm glad, i invested only in the Low Grade... --
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:37:00 - [16] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 14/10/2006 18:38:10 It depends entirely on perspective. Of course I got my crystals for my Raven/CNR. And that ones damage IS killed when you fit a passive tank that can survive L4s. And I am pretty certain I am not the only one in that boat. So yes, it is a nerf for many people. This wouldn't be so bad if I could unplug them, but if this goes through the things will be lost to me when I replace them with regular +4s because those will be more benefit for me. :( Just glad I only got low-grades. --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.14 18:47:00 - [17] just another reason not to specialize in someone because sooner or later it gets nerfed
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.10.14 19:45:00 - [18] The Vulture tank is going to be awesome now. Wherever you went - here you are.
FFGR Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.14 21:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Ghoest The Vulture tank is going to be awesome now. I'm going to be laughing at all the people that will be firing on my eagle if you think that's going to be awesome (Vulture setups are a bit borky when used as an anti-frig platform like the eagle in fleetbattles due to it's lock range) _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.14 21:31:00 - [20] Cross-posting is bad, but I think this deserves it... This new implant will require that the shield recharge time is increased by precisely the same modifier as the shield hit point amount is. And make sure that the nerf effect is also increased by the set-bonus Really. This set should be a boost to hit points, not to make shield tanking stupidly effective, but in a new way. Looking at Pottsey's thread, I can only deduce that unless the above is made true you will be able to build near unbeatable tanks (tanks that have no weak spot) - Three years old
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.15 00:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Ithildin Cross-posting is bad, but I think this deserves it... This new implant will require that the shield recharge time is increased by precisely the same modifier as the shield hit point amount is. And make sure that the nerf effect is also increased by the set-bonus Really. This set should be a boost to hit points, not to make shield tanking stupidly effective, but in a new way. Looking at Pottsey's thread, I can only deduce that unless the above is made true you will be able to build near unbeatable tanks (tanks that have no weak spot) hmm, if they don't increase recharge time an equal amount as the shield increase it will be a nice boost for any ship that can fit a passive shield tank. For a ship like the minmatar command bc's I rather see it as a nerf, no way i'll passive tank them. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:24:00 - [22] You don't need a crystal set for mission running. Many can do all of them (excepted Enemies abound) in a regular raven with tech II gear. Those who would need the crystal set to have it easier in missions don't have the skills to do them wihtout and so don't have the ISK to buy a set neither. I use crystals for PvP and that's a lot of isk on the table. I can't say they are overpowered by any means. There is no reason to change them, and if Tux screws with them, he better re-imburse who bought sets already because an increase in shields doens't interest me in the slightest. Either you go for active tanking and benefit from crystals, or you go for passive and extenders do the job nicely. Unless, of course, they increase shields by a lot in which case Vaga and Domi pilots will be very happy. ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Blind Man Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.10.15 03:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Ithildin Cross-posting is bad, but I think this deserves it... This new implant will require that the shield recharge time is increased by precisely the same modifier as the shield hit point amount is. And make sure that the nerf effect is also increased by the set-bonus Really. This set should be a boost to hit points, not to make shield tanking stupidly effective, but in a new way. Looking at Pottsey's thread, I can only deduce that unless the above is made true you will be able to build near unbeatable tanks (tanks that have no weak spot) hmm, if they don't increase recharge time an equal amount as the shield increase it will be a nice boost for any ship that can fit a passive shield tank. For a ship like the minmatar command bc's I rather see it as a nerf, no way i'll passive tank them. thats why it should be changed to shield hp bonus bwaahhah
Pottsey Gallente Acme Shipping Inc	Posted - 2006.10.15 06:10:00 - [24] I am fine with a recharge penalty but I would like it to be large enough not to make the implants overpowered but small enough so you do get a HP regen boost from the implants. It will take some playing around with but should be doable. Passive shield tanking guide click here
tiller Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:19:00 - [25] IMHO with low grade sets going for about 800m and full sets around 2bill they should be overpowered. 2bill isk should make you worth two normal pilots end of story. If you're going to risk that kind of isk and got the balls to do it then reaping the rewards of your bravery is only fair. Bringing EVERYTHING in game to the same level is turning what was a exciting game of extreme setups and risk into a dull level play field where everyrone is equal, noone has the upper hand it's all just luck. JUST LEAVE THINGS ALONE for the love of god. Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:53:00 - [26] Originally by: tiller IMHO with low grade sets going for about 800m and full sets around 2bill they should be overpowered. 2bill isk should make you worth two normal pilots end of story. If you're going to risk that kind of isk and got the balls to do it then reaping the rewards of your bravery is only fair. Bringing EVERYTHING in game to the same level is turning what was a exciting game of extreme setups and risk into a dull level play field where everyrone is equal, noone has the upper hand it's all just luck. JUST LEAVE THINGS ALONE for the love of god. You know... talisman implants doesn't make you 2 pilots, and their price is low since they suck at careberism. For pvp value, they turn certain ships into nightmares. You meet domi with lg. talismans and you know what happened to your cap in < 17.5s. And their price is close to ordinary t1 implants. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.15 08:56:00 - [27] Welcome to EVE ladies and gents... the game where the player market pricing has nothing to do with the developers decisions to balance broken modules. They are grossly overpowered in PvE. Plain and simple. To the nerf mobile tuxman. Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
tiller Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Kaylana Syi Welcome to EVE ladies and gents... the game where the player market pricing has nothing to do with the developers decisions to balance broken modules. They are grossly overpowered in PvE. Plain and simple. To the nerf mobile tuxman. I've got a great idea, for the ult balance once and for all. We can all fly exactly the same ship. Each ship has 1 launcher, 1 mining laser, 1 cyno generator, 1 cloak, 1 tracking disruptor, 1 smartbomb. Would be fun fun fun btw, generally those who shout BROKEN NERF IT fall into one of 3 cats... 1. they cannot use the item 2. they cannot afford the item 3. they got bbq'd because of the item nuff said Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:14:00 - [29] Originally by: tiller Originally by: Kaylana Syi Welcome to EVE ladies and gents... the game where the player market pricing has nothing to do with the developers decisions to balance broken modules. They are grossly overpowered in PvE. Plain and simple. To the nerf mobile tuxman. I've got a great idea, for the ult balance once and for all. We can all fly exactly the same ship. Each ship has 1 launcher, 1 mining laser, 1 cyno generator, 1 cloak, 1 tracking disruptor, 1 smartbomb. Would be fun fun fun btw, generally those who shout BROKEN NERF IT fall into one of 3 cats... 1. they cannot use the item 2. they cannot afford the item 3. they got bbq'd because of the item nuff said No, they're broke because they increase a tank which can run forever (Gist X- Large shield booster + hardners w/ pdus in lows) and make it 66% stronger, which IS overpowered. Wheras us armor reppers only get 66% more armor --- Praxitele's Inc. is Recruiting!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:14:00 - [30] Originally by: tiller Originally by: Kaylana Syi Welcome to EVE ladies and gents... the game where the player market pricing has nothing to do with the developers decisions to balance broken modules. They are grossly overpowered in PvE. Plain and simple. To the nerf mobile tuxman. I've got a great idea, for the ult balance once and for all. We can all fly exactly the same ship. Each ship has 1 launcher, 1 mining laser, 1 cyno generator, 1 cloak, 1 tracking disruptor, 1 smartbomb. Would be fun fun fun btw, generally those who shout BROKEN NERF IT fall into one of 3 cats... 1. they cannot use the item 2. they cannot afford the item 3. they got bbq'd because of the item nuff said 1. is usually most common reason, also known under name imbalance. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
tiller Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:20:00 - [31] Edited by: tiller on 15/10/2006 09:20:38 Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: tiller Originally by: Kaylana Syi Welcome to EVE ladies and gents... the game where the player market pricing has nothing to do with the developers decisions to balance broken modules. They are grossly overpowered in PvE. Plain and simple. To the nerf mobile tuxman. I've got a great idea, for the ult balance once and for all. We can all fly exactly the same ship. Each ship has 1 launcher, 1 mining laser, 1 cyno generator, 1 cloak, 1 tracking disruptor, 1 smartbomb. Would be fun fun fun btw, generally those who shout BROKEN NERF IT fall into one of 3 cats... 1. they cannot use the item 2. they cannot afford the item 3. they got bbq'd because of the item nuff said No, they're broke because they increase a tank which can run forever (Gist X- Large shield booster + hardners w/ pdus in lows) and make it 66% stronger, which IS overpowered. Wheras us armor reppers only get 66% more armor Ahhhhhhhhhhhh so no 1. :-) You use arm reps so thats why your upset. You can't compare arm tanking and shield tanking. They are totally unlike each other is so many ways. If anything the slave implants are broken edit: dont forget that gist x tank and full crystals would set you back maybe 5 bill isk.... Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage
tiller Beer and Kebabs Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:28:00 - [32] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: tiller Originally by: Kaylana Syi Welcome to EVE ladies and gents... the game where the player market pricing has nothing to do with the developers decisions to balance broken modules. They are grossly overpowered in PvE. Plain and simple. To the nerf mobile tuxman. I've got a great idea, for the ult balance once and for all. We can all fly exactly the same ship. Each ship has 1 launcher, 1 mining laser, 1 cyno generator, 1 cloak, 1 tracking disruptor, 1 smartbomb. Would be fun fun fun btw, generally those who shout BROKEN NERF IT fall into one of 3 cats... 1. they cannot use the item 2. they cannot afford the item 3. they got bbq'd because of the item nuff said 1. is usually most common reason, also known under name imbalance. Very true m8, but sometimes it all goes to far... Need to nerf oranges coz they not yellow like a bannana Click me for Pirate Coalition Website of Gankage
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.10.15 09:48:00 - [33] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 15/10/2006 09:48:42 Originally by: tiller edit: dont forget that gist x tank and full crystals would set you back maybe 5 bill isk.... Yeah. But game balance should never be dictated by price. Those modules are expensive because they are very, very good. ... and unfortunately, nowadays you can't even say "well, the people using them have earned the isk", because more often than not they've just bought the isk via GTCs and/or the character from eBay. I don't personally care one way or another about the crystal sets, don't use them myself -- but I do think Tux generally knows what he's doing and doesn't just nerf things on a whim. If there's a nerf incoming, it's because there is need. And of course, for some people this is actully a boost, not a nerf -- passive shield tanks ought to love this.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:02:00 - [34] Originally by: tiller You can't compare arm tanking and shield tanking. They are totally unlike each other is so many ways. If anything the slave implants are broken edit: dont forget that gist x tank and full crystals would set you back maybe 5 bill isk.... Erm... Armour and shield tanks are very alike. Only difference is what slots they use. How are slaves broken? They increase survivability by a fixed amount. Compared to Crystals which increase the tank by a fixed amount. It's about thresholds. Unless you are faced with overwhelming damage, a tank increase is always better than a survival time increase - no real point arguing that. Or, put in a slightly different way, a hit point amount implant set is better when time before death is less than S in the equation <hit points> = <Hit point boost> * S / <Implant effect>. Or in words: if you die before your shield booster has cycled enough times to fully repair your shields, if you remove the crystal implant effect. Generally, you can say that a hit point boost is better if you die within 20 seconds in a battleship. Well, depending on tank and extenders. edit: remember that a Chelm tank and full slave set will set you back tens of billions. That is to say, current crystal versus a slave set may be situational which is best, but only the crystal set can make you invulnerable. Repair tanks are significantly more volatile for game balance than survival tanks. Slave set is a survival tank, Crystal implant is a volatile repair tank and it backfires a lot. Oh, and wouldn't it be nice to have a crystal set that helps capital ships? - Three years old
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:38:00 - [35] Originally by: lofty29 No, they're broke because they increase a tank which can run forever (Gist X- Large shield booster + hardners w/ pdus in lows) and make it 66% stronger, which IS overpowered. Wheras us armor reppers only get 66% more armor It's your use of the word "us" that gives the true reason for your whine. "I can't use it, so it must be overpowered". You fall into category 1 as given earlier. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 10:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: lofty29 No, they're broke because they increase a tank which can run forever (Gist X- Large shield booster + hardners w/ pdus in lows) and make it 66% stronger, which IS overpowered. Wheras us armor reppers only get 66% more armor It's your use of the word "us" that gives the true reason for your whine. "I can't use it, so it must be overpowered". You fall into category 1 as given earlier. That category is called IMBALANCED. Otherwise there would be no wish and no whining about using it. ps. i can use it, have it, just don't want to stick it in, since i don't need it. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:56:00 - [37] Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 15/10/2006 18:00:25 Originally by: tiller Originally by: Kaylana Syi Welcome to EVE ladies and gents... the game where the player market pricing has nothing to do with the developers decisions to balance broken modules. They are grossly overpowered in PvE. Plain and simple. To the nerf mobile tuxman. I've got a great idea, for the ult balance once and for all. We can all fly exactly the same ship. Each ship has 1 launcher, 1 mining laser, 1 cyno generator, 1 cloak, 1 tracking disruptor, 1 smartbomb. Would be fun fun fun Your attempt at sarcasm is pretty pathetic. Quote: btw, generally those who shout BROKEN NERF IT fall into one of 3 cats... 1. they cannot use the item I can and they would go good on 2 of my main characters ( raven and sleipnir pilots ) Quote: 2. they cannot afford the item If I wanted to buy them I could buy them. Quote: 3. they got bbq'd because of the item You got to be kidding me right? It comes down to wanting pirate implants to be balanced. Crystals make life in a raven pretty imbalanced compared to the other battleships. Missions carry a large brunt of items that can soar corp and alliances into staggering isk advantages over their rivals. Crystals are a small investment compared to the gains that can be had. Simple as that. No other implant can ride that claim to fame. nuff said Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.15 18:02:00 - [38] Originally by: Blind Man Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: Ithildin ... ... thats why it should be changed to shield hp bonus bwaahhah So crystals have to be nerfed cause otherwhise minmatar are too good?! this coming from a guy with boost minmatar in the sig? I'm more concerned with what will happen with the caldari command ships when they change the crystals to boost shield hp tbh. A resist bonus from the ship, with HAC resists and ability to fit a mean passive tank that is made even better . Yeah I guess the caldari need the boost. I would prefer slave set to be changed to crystal equivalent personally. Originally by: Alex Harumichi Originally by: tiller edit: dont forget that gist x tank and full crystals would set you back maybe 5 bill isk.... Yeah. But game balance should never be dictated by price. Those modules are expensive because they are very, very good. ... and unfortunately, nowadays you can't even say "well, the people using them have earned the isk", because more often than not they've just bought the isk via GTCs and/or the character from eBay. I don't personally care one way or another about the crystal sets, don't use them myself -- but I do think Tux generally knows what he's doing and doesn't just nerf things on a whim. If there's a nerf incoming, it's because there is need. And of course, for some people this is actully a boost, not a nerf -- passive shield tanks ought to love this. I earned the isk for my lg crystal set on my own, I don't deserve to have something decent for my isk because some other people can't play the game "fairly"? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.15 18:12:00 - [39] Originally by: Kaylana Syi You got to be kidding me right? It comes down to wanting pirate implants to be balanced. Crystals make life in a raven pretty imbalanced compared to the other battleships. Missions carry a large brunt of items that can soar corp and alliances into staggering isk advantages over their rivals. Crystals are a small investment compared to the gains that can be had. Simple as that. No other implant can ride that claim to fame. hmm, I agree. However how can you balance something that is even in concept unbalanced? Because that is what the pirate implant sets do. Boost a particular stat to the point of unbalanced. snake set + vagabond? halo set + inty? talisman set + amarr recon? In every one of those instances it can grossly unbalance the already delicate balance and results in overpowering that particular ship. It's not different with the crystal set. Nor the slave set(arguably increasing armor is not extremely overpowering). Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
LVSOCOM Minmatar The Rat Pack	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:01:00 - [40] I'd rather see the Slave set get changed to an equivilant to the Crystal set, then any changes be made to the Crystals.
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:05:00 - [41] Originally by: LVSOCOM I'd rather see the Slave set get changed to an equivilant to the Crystal set, then any changes be made to the Crystals. Oi, leave the slave set alone. HP > repair ability on small ships.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:41:00 - [42] Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: LVSOCOM I'd rather see the Slave set get changed to an equivilant to the Crystal set, then any changes be made to the Crystals. Oi, leave the slave set alone. HP > repair ability on small ships. Ah, I see. It's okay to break the shield boosting implants, but the same "balance" applied in reverse would be somehow unfair? Thank you SO much for clearing that up... --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:57:00 - [43] Originally by: Snikkt To people saying they're over powered, they're really expensive for a full set. That's the most stupid type of comment that ppl use to throw at these boards. For standard tech 1 items, CCP set the price by the building reqs and then balance things. For other items, balance is set by CCP and then the players decide the price. A HAC "shouldn't be good because it costs so much". It costs so much because it's already so good that the players has set that price. Then there's some things disturbing the balance, like farming of Gist complexes that totally messed up the supply of Gist mods and kept the prices down. And in this case, I'm also sure there's alot more ppl running missions for Gursitas compared to the other factions. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: inSpirAcy Originally by: LVSOCOM I'd rather see the Slave set get changed to an equivilant to the Crystal set, then any changes be made to the Crystals. Oi, leave the slave set alone. HP > repair ability on small ships. Ah, I see. It's okay to break the shield boosting implants, but the same "balance" applied in reverse would be somehow unfair? Thank you SO much for clearing that up... Snip you are bitter since you will no longer be able to afk through lvl4? Buy apoc :P Or maybe do lvl4 in intys if slaves are that good. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Now Mary	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:06:00 - [45] As somebody who uses Snake implants, I think the pirate implants really should be removed from the game. In practice, they really throw the entire concept of balance right out the window. If you are reading a post by this character, it's probably because I'm too lazy to select my main. Try not to lose any sleep over it, mkay?
Roxanna Kell BURN EDEN	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:08:00 - [46] i just hope people would STFU with the overpowred shield tank talk. the damn implants cost billions. Quote: "Don't touch the red button!"
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:09:00 - [47] Originally by: LUKEC Snip you are bitter since you will no longer be able to afk through lvl4? Buy apoc :P Or maybe do lvl4 in intys if slaves are that good. Wrong again Lukec, I don't own ANY Crystal Implants. The point I was making, is that if it is GENUINELY about balancing one set of implants vs another, it shouldn't matter whether you nerf one or boost the other. And equally, since it's implants rather than a ship, there's no argument that it makes a certain ship ridiculously powerful...implants apply to all ships and all setups EQUALLY. But, the subtext is again clear to read. Crystal are more use on missions. CCP hate mission runners. Thus...nerf the crystal. And I know that this will prompt the normal flood of "PVP>PVE" posts. In that case, give me a free account and disable my ship from targetting any other player. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Roxanna Kell i just hope people would STFU with the overpowred shield tank talk. the damn implants cost billions. OMG!!!! Arrrrghhh. I just replied two posts above yours. Items are not good because they cost alot. Items cost alot because they are good. Try to get already. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:37:00 - [49] People need to actualy realize that Crystal implants are not over powered in PvP. Sure it gives shield tanking a greater sustainability (still nothing compared to an armor tank tho) but thats if you an NPC'er. A Caldari PvP'er has to fit a scrambler, (and if your a raven pilot a painter or web so you can actualy hit anything smaller than you) Once you take into account all the utilities you have to fit it really does not leave alot of room for a tank like the other races get. This implant set has allowed Caldari ships (and especialy the smaller ones with limited mid slots) to perform on par with their other racial counterparts. Change the implants and we may as well all go back to flying nothing but EW boats cos we sure as hell wont compete in a straight up fight.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:38:00 - [50] Originally by: dalman Gist boosters, pimped amps and crystals... All of them individually are very powerful, but it's due to the multiplicative way shield tanking works that they become so overpowered that it's ***** *****. Ballance should NEVER be based on faction items. Ballance has to be derived from T1 and T2 and in those cases the implants are fine as is.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:22:00 - [51] Edited by: LUKEC on 16/10/2006 16:23:05 Originally by: Rawthorm People need to actualy realize that Crystal implants are not over powered in PvP. Sure it gives shield tanking a greater sustainability (still nothing compared to an armor tank tho) but thats if you an NPC'er. A Caldari PvP'er has to fit a scrambler, (and if your a raven pilot a painter or web so you can actualy hit anything smaller than you) Once you take into account all the utilities you have to fit it really does not leave alot of room for a tank like the other races get. This implant set has allowed Caldari ships (and especialy the smaller ones with limited mid slots) to perform on par with their other racial counterparts. Change the implants and we may as well all go back to flying nothing but EW boats cos we sure as hell wont compete in a straight up fight. My raven works fine vs everything apart from intys orbiting at 25+km range. Spare us stuff about painter or web, you don't need it. I smacked blastertaranis that tried to tackle me in 1 volley everytime when he tried to do it. Hacs, cruisers die like there's no tomorrow and dual rep astarte died in 5 volleys(that makes 28s, t2 stuff only) (deimos with dual explo hardeners died in 7 :P). Plus argument about scrambler isn't that good, unless you fly raven alone... see where this is heading. Use javelins, till you can. Sig is not eve related Eve related? Copyright of ISD?
Mothmar Friedsquid	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:30:00 - [52] Why, exactly, do you deserve an i-win button for having more isk? Would someone explain this to me? I mean, in small words. Mothmar Friedsquid. Because SWG sucked and EVE doesn't require my entire life. Recruit me if you're part of a huge guild that rocks and is going to build a titan someday.
Jenstruant Fogg	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:42:00 - [53] I think that something people are missing is that some ships will have some insane passive tanks. Ok, it won't be as powerful as Crystals (ok, in some cases it will be: Jaguar comes to mind), but it's something to think about...
Dynast Knights of Red Mars	Posted - 2006.10.16 16:58:00 - [54] Originally by: Roxanna Kell i just hope people would STFU with the overpowred shield tank talk. the damn implants cost billions. Something being expensive does not make it balanced, or in any way enter the equation when it comes to the question of game balance. If anything, truely obscene prices could be considered a symptom of obscene imbalance, which players recognize and are willing to pay a premium for.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.16 17:03:00 - [55] Originally by: Rawthorm Originally by: dalman Gist boosters, pimped amps and crystals... All of them individually are very powerful, but it's due to the multiplicative way shield tanking works that they become so overpowered that it's ***** ***. Ballance should NEVER be based on faction items. Ballance has to be derived from T1 and T2 and in those cases the implants are fine as is. Yes and no. Ofc balance is to be based on T2 stuff. But how do you decide the stats on the pimped stuff? Not** like it is at the moment. Surely you must see the problem. Armor tank is 2 reps: x+x= 2x Shield tank is booster * amp: yz= yz And per T2 balance 2x = yz Then you pimp all the stuff with 1.5. And it becomes 1.5x + 1.5x = 3x And 1.5y 1.5z = 2.25 yz. And whoop deee doo all of a sudden shield tanking is 50% better than armor tanking. The pimped boosters, amps and crystal sets all need to be nerfed a bit. They are not balanced at all the way it is atm. Period. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.16 18:52:00 - [56] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Rawthorm Originally by: dalman Gist boosters, pimped amps and crystals... All of them individually are very powerful, but it's due to the multiplicative way shield tanking works that they become so overpowered that it's ***** ***. Ballance should NEVER be based on faction items. Ballance has to be derived from T1 and T2 and in those cases the implants are fine as is. Yes and no. Ofc balance is to be based on T2 stuff. But how do you decide the stats on the pimped stuff? Not** like it is at the moment. Surely you must see the problem. Armor tank is 2 reps: x+x= 2x Shield tank is booster * amp: yz= yz And per T2 balance 2x = yz Then you pimp all the stuff with 1.5. And it becomes 1.5x + 1.5x = 3x And 1.5y 1.5z = 2.25 yz. And whoop deee doo all of a sudden shield tanking is 50% better than armor tanking. The pimped boosters, amps and crystal sets all need to be nerfed a bit. They are not balanced at all the way it is atm. Period. 3x is not 50% better then 2.25 yz though. it's 33% better. From concept the pirate implants are already unbalanced. Combine one set with a particular set and it becomes overpowered. Curse + talisman? Zealot(with tank) + slave set? Vagabond + snake set(or halo)? Crystals merely make active shield tanking ships stronger and the intended change could make passive shield tanks stupidly powerfull. Like the Nighthawk or the Vulture with a passive shield tank combined with the +25% shield resist from T1 bonus and the Hac-resists. If the only reason for nerfing the crystal implants is from experiences from last tourney, that is silly. The tournament isn't real pvp, it is an arena with set rules, where ships can use all their mids to full effect for tanking rather then holding targets in place. If you want to make the tourney more about skill and less about who has the most isk, don't allow the implants, no matter how you spin it, all pirate implants have the potential of overpowering certain ships. I can imagine we'll see curses be quite popular in tourney too, of course they'll be packing talismans(why the heck not?). So should talismans be nerfed for next tourney just because they make one ship(or ship type) extremely strong? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Aleis Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:38:00 - [57] few things to say i'll keep it short and to teh point. One hand I think it would be cool to have them be a HP boost and in most cases it wouldstill be worth it, Definatly makes them more viable for teh slug fest pvp scenario. However As a Claymore pilot They fit so nicely now that I just bought a set I'd hate to see it change. BC lvl 5 + shield amp + crystal set and wow thats a lot of shields. For the people that whine about the price being a ballencing force, You don't know what your talking so about so please stay quite. The price is only ungodly expensive because everyone wants them, all pirate implants are equaly easy/difficult to get, the only reason one cost more than another is because people want them more. Even at teh discusting price they are at, the market is still almost always short on crystal plants.
inSpirAcy The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:13:00 - [58] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: inSpirAcy Oi, leave the slave set alone. HP > repair ability on small ships. Ah, I see. It's okay to break the shield boosting implants, but the same "balance" applied in reverse would be somehow unfair? Thank you SO much for clearing that up... Really, just stop posting in this thread. Your dire seriousness about the whole matter is clouding your ability to see humour for what it is, and it's making you look really stupid.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:19:00 - [59] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Aleis few things to say i'll keep it short and to teh point. One hand I think it would be cool to have them be a HP boost and in most cases it wouldstill be worth it, Definatly makes them more viable for teh slug fest pvp scenario. However As a Claymore pilot They fit so nicely now that I just bought a set I'd hate to see it change. BC lvl 5 + shield amp + crystal set and wow thats a lot of shields. For the people that whine about the price being a ballencing force, You don't know what your talking so about so please stay quite. The price is only ungodly expensive because everyone wants them, all pirate implants are equaly easy/difficult to get, the only reason one cost more than another is because people want them more. Even at teh discusting price they are at, the market is still almost always short on crystal plants. Some are much harder to get, trust me. They suck so much more though. To add to that... Looking at how implants drop from officer/commander NPCs, Gamma implants are more rare than Epsilons. Also, Willpower (gamma) is considered more important than Charisma (Epsilon) to most players. Hence the price on full grade Gamma (higher demand and lower supply) should be "alot" higher than the price on full grade Epsilon. But it is not. Because there's a whole lot more mission runners who do the Gamma-implant offer. Yet another example of how CCP wield their magic to mess up the supply/demand on some stuff, and thereby also the prices. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:28:00 - [60] Originally by: Ohmy Fugod Edited by: Ohmy Fugod on 16/10/2006 21:12:21 Hmm I can see not everyone knows about economy here... 1) CCP Controls prices. As much as they want. Examples? No more carriers running missions, the result: some faction or officer stuff skyrocketing. Another example? T2 items. So little bpo's out there, so expensive they've always been. Just like any mmorpg programming company, they DIRECTLY affect prices with their decisions. 2) If someone works hard for something, they deserve the reward. If someone believes somebody got isk off of ebay or whatever, either report it or SHUT UP. If someone has isk, then they deserve what they can get off of it. All those comments about "Why does he have to be good if he has isk" can't come from nothing else than envy. Simply because If working hard isn't rewarded, then there's no reason to work hard at all. Face these facts, admit them, live with them. Just like in real life, the guy who worked or studied his ass off deserves to live better than those who slack day and night. So if you don't care about growing in the game, you do definitely deserve to be a Bantam veldspar miner for life. 3) I don't have any of these implants, and still can feel their owners. This isn't just some small tweak to some gun or module. We're talking about items that can't be disposed of without being totally lost, and about items whose prices represent HOURS of playing time. If there's no compensation for their owners, then talk about balance or any reasons you want, but these folks would still be getting ripped off. They'd simply watch how the last month or two of playing for that crystal omega simply disappears fruitlessly. And a final recommendation: Laughing because some guy crashed his Ferrari will never never get you a Ferrari yourself. Dude, I don't think you get it. Take myself for example. I got myself a slave-set before RMR-patch. The changes in the RMR patch totally OMGWTFBBQ-NERFED my slave set. And I still always said that the changes in the RMR patch were necessary cause the situation pre-RMR was totally messed up. In this case, the situation with pimped shield gear is totally messed up and needs a nerf. (or, in fact it should have been sorted 2 years ago, but then again we're dealing with soon(tm) CCP) Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Ohmy Fugod Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:53:00 - [61] I should probably acquaint myself with the Slave set case before posting, however, with the crystal set I see the following facts: 1) Not everyone has them. Heck not even I would buy them, even if I had the cash. 2) Probably no one uses them for pvp, not even a low grade one. And IF somebody does, then odds are it's just one or two "somebodies". So I don't see how it affects PVP balance at all, which takes us to the last point; 3) It can be safely said that it would only affect mission running. Now, I do run lvl 4's quite succesfully without them. So why would you spend time working on code to nerf something that ain't affecting the whole game, when there're so many other way more important issues to take care of first? I won't deny there must be some folks with a full set reaping it in like crazy. But man, then it's up to CCP to introduce better challenges then. They got what they deserve, so let em benefit from it, and if they still believe a handful of folks affects the Eve economy even more than, cough macrominers, then nerf or remove the set from the game, but give them their isk back. If the Slave set nerf was just as bad, then you definitely deserved some sort of compensation as well. No one should be a martyr here, it's just a game and everybody's playing time deserves it's respect. To conclude: It's very important to notice how different this nerf is from any other. It's not just a combat rules change, it's something that would directly affect the game economy of probably a handful players, and most probably a bunch of loyal-to-the-game folks who stuck through their ups and downs while saving those billions to become great at it. Coldly nerfing the set would, in some part, mean "we don't care about long lasting customers" as well as any other legitimate reason they might have. Just like they did with all those guys who spent MONTHS doing nothing but training for carriers, to have their usefulness halved within a single day. Definitely not fair. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ *Quod Natura non da, Salamantica non praesta*
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:25:00 - [62] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: dalman Ofc balance is to be based on T2 stuff. But how do you decide the stats on the pimped stuff? Not like it is at the moment. Surely you must see the problem. Armor tank is 2 reps: x+x= 2x Shield tank is booster * amp: yz= yz And per T2 balance 2x = yz Then you pimp all the stuff with 1.5. And it becomes 1.5x + 1.5x = 3x And 1.5y 1.5z = 2.25 yz. And whoop deee doo all of a sudden shield tanking is 50% better than armor tanking. The pimped boosters, amps and crystal sets all need to be nerfed a bit. They are not balanced at all the way it is atm. Period. 3x is not 50% better then 2.25 yz though. it's 33% better. If you're gifted enough to know that 3/2.25 = 1.333 I'd figure you'd also realize you were supposed to calculate 2.25/1.5 = 1.5 ah good point but that would be wrong to compare a tank that uses 1 slot with a tank that uses 2 slots. Yes a 2-slot tank is better then a 1 slot tank, surprise surprise... If you want to compare a shield tank with amp with an armor tank use 2 slots in both cases. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:41:00 - [63] Edited by: Vmir Gallahasen on 16/10/2006 22:44:59 Can't help myself 2 slot Shield Tank (XL II + Amp): 780 hp over 5s = 156 hp/s 400 cap (-10%) over 5s = 72 cap/s 2 slot Armor Tank (LAR II x 2): 800 hp over 11.25s * 2 = 142 hp/s 400 cap over 11.25s * 2 = 71 cap/s So at this point, we know that a shield tank boosts (156/142) 9.85% better than a similar max-skills armor tank for (72/71) 1.4% more cap. Now let's pretend we plug in relevant implants to the armor and shield tank pilots (slave and crystals) and recalculate tanks: 2 slot Shield Tank (XL II + Amp + Crystal set): note: Shield tank now boosts 53.88% better 1199 hp over 5s = 240 hp/s 400 cap (-10%) over 5s = 72 cap/s 2 slot Armor Tank (LAR II x 2 + Armor Tank): note: Slave set has no effect upon armor tank HP/S 800 hp over 11.25s * 2 = 142 hp/s 400 cap over 11.25s * 2 = 71 cap/s Now we see that the shield tank boosts (240/142) 69% better than a similar armor tank for (72/71) 1.4% more capacitor/s. This is crap. If you think slaves and crystals are balanced, then explain why I want to live 10 seconds longer in pvp instead of being able to tank the damage permanently? P.S. Shield tanks take 1.4% more cap with good skills than an armor tank ship but don't forget that most armor tank ships need cap to fire guns, and most shield tank ships don't. Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip New sig coming soonÖ
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:55:00 - [64] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen ... Now we see that the shield tank boosts (240/142) 69% better than a similar armor tank for (72/71) 1.4% more capacitor/s. This is crap. If you think slaves and crystals are balanced, then explain why I want to live 10 seconds longer in pvp instead of being able to tank the damage permanently? P.S. Shield tanks take 1.4% more cap with good skills than an armor tank ship but don't forget that most armor tank ships need cap to fire guns, and most shield tank ships don't. So ask for a boost to slave set instead of a nerf to crystal set? That would put the numbers at 240hp/s for 72 cap/s for shield and 218.62 hp/s for 71 cap/s for armor tank. Shield tank then is only 9% better. BTW you forget about the Vulture, Eagle, Moa, Harpy, Rokh(soonÖ)? All shield tankers that need cap for their guns. If crystal set is getting nerfed because of previous experiences from the tourney. I think that is a silly reason. Just don't allow implants in tourney then. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.16 23:36:00 - [65] Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: dalman Originally by: Reatu Krentor Originally by: dalman Ofc balance is to be based on T2 stuff. But how do you decide the stats on the pimped stuff? Not like it is at the moment. Surely you must see the problem. Armor tank is 2 reps: x+x= 2x Shield tank is booster * amp: yz= yz And per T2 balance 2x = yz Then you pimp all the stuff with 1.5. And it becomes 1.5x + 1.5x = 3x And 1.5y 1.5z = 2.25 yz. And whoop deee doo all of a sudden shield tanking is 50% better than armor tanking. The pimped boosters, amps and crystal sets all need to be nerfed a bit. They are not balanced at all the way it is atm. Period. 3x is not 50% better then 2.25 yz though. it's 33% better. If you're gifted enough to know that 3/2.25 = 1.333 I'd figure you'd also realize you were supposed to calculate 2.25/1.5 = 1.5 ah good point but that would be wrong to compare a tank that uses 1 slot with a tank that uses 2 slots. Yes a 2-slot tank is better then a 1 slot tank, surprise surprise... If you want to compare a shield tank with amp with an armor tank use 2 slots in both cases. By ghad learn to read. 2 repairers vs boosteramp = balanced at T2 stage. And when CCP pimps them, the repairers gets 1.5x as good, but the booster and amp each gets 1.5x as good and as they're multiplied the end result is 2.25x as good. As in, T2 armor vs shield tank is balanced. With pimped stuff the shield tank is "pimped twice". And then you add in the current Crystal implants and all of a sudden the shield tank has been pimped three times, making it 1.51.5*1.5 = 3.375x as good as the balanced T2 tank while the armor only is pimped once. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.17 00:13:00 - [66] Originally by: dalman By ghad learn to read. 2 repairers vs boosteramp = balanced at T2 stage. And when CCP pimps them, the repairers gets 1.5x as good, but the booster and amp each gets 1.5x as good and as they're multiplied the end result is 2.25x as good. As in, T2 armor vs shield tank is balanced. With pimped stuff the shield tank is "pimped twice". And then you add in the current Crystal implants and all of a sudden the shield tank has been pimped three times, making it 1.51.51.5 = 3.375x as good as the balanced T2 tank while the armor only is pimped once. Armor tank and* shield tank are both pimped once per module(you use dual rep tank in your example). What you are claiming is that the shield booster is pimped twice while armor repper is pimped only once. That's bull. To get to the "pimped twice" You're using 2 modules. so compare it to 2 pimped modules not one. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Snikkt Gallente Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2006.10.17 00:28:00 - [67] Originally by: dalman Originally by: Roxanna Kell i just hope people would STFU with the overpowred shield tank talk. the damn implants cost billions. OMG!!!! Arrrrghhh. I just replied two posts above yours. Items are not good because they cost alot. Items cost alot because they are good. Try to get already. Good things cost good money. ------------------- If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. My opinions are not my corporations.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.17 06:50:00 - [68] Originally by: Reatu Krentor actual numbers of pimped armor tank and pimped shield tank in post 67. (interestingly the actual percentage that shield tank is better over armor tank is much closer to my initial number(which was attained in a semi brain fart though ) then to your 50% value. Yes, pith shieldtanking (without implants) only boosts 36% more than best armor and not 50%. As I never used any exact numbers. Because my sole point was to highlight how stupidly it's been designed, resulting in overpowered shield tanks. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.17 07:50:00 - [69] Quote: So ask for a boost to slave set instead of a nerf to crystal set? I don't want a boost to slave set, because I am 100% opposed to having an "uber" implant set. I don't want to hear about "raids" on a complex and Sword-of-a-Thousand-Truths like pirate implants as they are. All the pirate implants are too good in my opinion, with perhaps an exception to the halo set which isn't widely used anyway. Implants are meant to give you a bit of an edge, not give you an automatic win button. Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip New sig coming soonÖ
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.17 08:43:00 - [70] Originally by: LVSOCOM I'd rather see the Slave set get changed to an equivilant to the Crystal set, then any changes be made to the Crystals. It is not a case of Slave versus Crystal. These are the cases: * Crystal versus none * Crystal versus Slave * Crystal versus Halo * Crystal versus Snake * Crystal versus Talisman * Crystal versus +5 set * Crystal versus +4 set etc. etc. In essence, it's a question of "how good can an implant set be, when the drop rates and availability is similar to other, not quite as good, implants?" as well as "how good can an implant set be allowed to be?" Tuxford's team has indicated that their answer is that a standard amount pirate implant set boost to tanking is too good - regardless if it is shield or armour or hull. And I agree with them. Hull tanking can be made as good as a medium shield booster before implants! Omg! - What am I listening to?
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:30:00 - [71] Edited by: Rawthorm on 17/10/2006 11:33:56 Im quite amazed about all the referances to it being over powered, when its only the case for mission runners/npc'ers who can dedicate their mids to a total tank. This set has always allowed me to drop my amp for a scrambler and has never overpowered my raven but simply allowed it to compete in the field. I mean at heart all this implant set is, is a 2.4 billion ISK shield amp...one we wont get refunded if they nerf it.
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.17 11:56:00 - [72] Edited by: Choi on 17/10/2006 11:59:04 Originally by: Rawthorm I mean at heart all this implant set is, is a 2.4 billion ISK shield amp...one we wont get refunded if they nerf it. good point rawthorm Pith B type amp 400 mill ~41% shield boost Crystal Set 2.7 bill ~ 53% shield boost yea.... CCCP should just take shield tanking out of the game. They are way to overpowered, especially if you wanna pimp out your ship with all faction gear that would still die to nos and ecm and or a ganksquad. And correct me if im wrong but the crystal set stacks with the other amps too?
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:31:00 - [73] Quote: This set has always allowed me to drop my amp for a scrambler Your tacklers should be scrambling for you so this isn't really needed, unless you're solo'ing in a bs and think you should for some reason be a solo pwnmobile. Also, it irritates me that you can fit a scrambler, have an implant set effectively give you another mid slot+, and have a gank fitting in your low slots. And yet people are still here whining that it's unfair you're going to be brought in line with other pirate implants (don't forget your tank will still be far above standard). Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip New sig coming soonÖ
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:54:00 - [74] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Quote: This set has always allowed me to drop my amp for a scrambler Your tacklers should be scrambling for you so this isn't really needed, unless you're solo'ing in a bs and think you should for some reason be a solo pwnmobile. Also, it irritates me that you can fit a scrambler, have an implant set effectively give you another mid slot+, and have a gank fitting in your low slots. And yet people are still here whining that it's unfair you're going to be brought in line with other pirate implants (don't forget your tank will still be far above standard). Oh so armor tanking people can have their free low slot(slave set is like a 1600mm plate on thron, only without the mass penalty) but shield tankers can't? Also you can't always assume you'll have tacklers at your disposal however, on occasion you're forced to go with just bs as you lack the pilots to match the other group and have tacklers. Besides if you're within 20k of the targets anyway, why not get as much scrambling power as possible... Regardless, I still think it's silly to push through this nerf just because of performance of crystal set in a tourney that doesn't even come close to pvp on TQ, from the comment LeMonde made about it, that seemed to be the case. I'm also concerned about how it will affect myself(minmatar) and how it will affect other things. Like for example, sleipnir which is by virtue of the bonus "forced" to tank shield actively(doesn't mean it can't fit a passive tank though, but you'd ignore a good bonus) won't benefit (actively) from the new crystals. On the other hand, Ferox and by extension the Vulture and the Nighthawk which with their resist bonus don't have to ignore a bonus to have a passive tank will get a 30-50% boost of their passive tank. Vagabond with the new crystals, lots and lots of shield hp. Jaguar, the same. Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug... oh well Rabble rabble ra...(meh)
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Quote: This set has always allowed me to drop my amp for a scrambler Your tacklers should be scrambling for you so this isn't really needed, unless you're solo'ing in a bs and think you should for some reason be a solo pwnmobile. Also, it irritates me that you can fit a scrambler, have an implant set effectively give you another mid slot+, and have a gank fitting in your low slots. And yet people are still here whining that it's unfair you're going to be brought in line with other pirate implants (don't forget your tank will still be far above standard). So you dont fit a scrambler on your mega or apoc then? Sramblers are essential on a BS in small scale combat because more often than not your tackler cant last the duration and has to bail. He should only need to get the tackle until your BS can take over. As for the "free mid slot item", what about the no penilty plate the slaves give you? Have you ever seen what a Neutron fitting mega can do to you with 2 "vurtual 1600mm plates" that the slave set gives you? Not to mention the boost safety barrier they give to hacs command ships and recons.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 18:39:00 - [76] Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 18:42:26 Edited by: LUKEC on 17/10/2006 18:41:04 Originally by: Rawthorm Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Quote: This set has always allowed me to drop my amp for a scrambler Your tacklers should be scrambling for you so this isn't really needed, unless you're solo'ing in a bs and think you should for some reason be a solo pwnmobile. Also, it irritates me that you can fit a scrambler, have an implant set effectively give you another mid slot+, and have a gank fitting in your low slots. And yet people are still here whining that it's unfair you're going to be brought in line with other pirate implants (don't forget your tank will still be far above standard). So you dont fit a scrambler on your mega or apoc then? Sramblers are essential on a BS in small scale combat because more often than not your tackler cant last the duration and has to bail. He should only need to get the tackle until your BS can take over. As for the "free mid slot item", what about the no penilty plate the slaves give you? Have you ever seen what a Neutron fitting mega can do to you with 2 "vurtual 1600mm plates" that the slave set gives you? Not to mention the boost safety barrier they give to hacs command ships and recons. "2 virtual plates" are exactly 3520 armor (mega after skills has cca 6600 armor, so you get 0.53 more... ) For comparison, 1600mm rolled tungsten gives 4200 armor after skills. So based on your logic, you are complaining implants better than best officer boost amp are inferior to implants between 2. and 3. named t1 plate?
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:34:00 - [77] Originally by: LUKEC "2 virtual plates" are exactly 3520 armor (mega after skills has cca 6600 armor, so you get 0.53 more... ) For comparison, 1600mm rolled tungsten gives 4200 armor after skills. So based on your logic, you are complaining implants better than best officer boost amp are inferior to implants between 2. and 3. named t1 plate? boosting % and plates are 2 different things. Plates stack every time you put those 1600mm rolled tungstens u get that amount of armor and IIRC the slaves will stack after you put more 1600's on. So after you put that 1600 plates on and your mega has 10k armor with skills and the mod the slaves should pop it up to 15k and so on. The shield amping is based on percent, which has a stacking penalty that takes the crystal set into account.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Choi Originally by: LUKEC "2 virtual plates" are exactly 3520 armor (mega after skills has cca 6600 armor, so you get 0.53 more... ) For comparison, 1600mm rolled tungsten gives 4200 armor after skills. So based on your logic, you are complaining implants better than best officer boost amp are inferior to implants between 2. and 3. named t1 plate? boosting % and plates are 2 different things. Plates stack every time you put those 1600mm rolled tungstens u get that amount of armor and IIRC the slaves will stack after you put more 1600's on. So after you put that 1600 plates on and your mega has 10k armor with skills and the mod the slaves should pop it up to 15k and so on. The shield amping is based on percent, which has a stacking penalty that takes the crystal set into account. So you are telling me that... raven with t2 xl booster, boost amp and crystals won't boost 600x1.3x1.53? (1.53 beeing crystal set factor) Or will the stacking penalty kick in once you fit 2 boost amps? Well also mass will go up and there isn't many ships that easily fit more than 2 plates anyway(ok lolergeddon with 5x plates, 3x hs II ... ). Like you can't fit more than 2 amps effectively(effectively = there can be better effect achieved by using other modules of similar price) Yes i'm well aware what your point is, but plates and pimp wagons are ugh... WTB chelm's modified plate...
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.17 19:55:00 - [79] Originally by: LUKEC So you are telling me that... raven with t2 xl booster, boost amp and crystals won't boost 600x1.3x1.53? (1.53 beeing crystal set factor) Or will the stacking penalty kick in once you fit 2 boost amps? Well also mass will go up and there isn't many ships that easily fit more than 2 plates anyway(ok lolergeddon with 5x plates, 3x hs II ... ). Like you can't fit more than 2 amps effectively(effectively = there can be better effect achieved by using other modules of similar price) Yes i'm well aware what your point is, but plates and pimp wagons are ugh... WTB chelm's modified plate... yes more than 2 amps is pointless and a waste or in this case including the crystals in your head fitting more than 1 amp is far less effective. Basicly its a nicer amp that frees up a midslot. Essentially the slaves and crystals are not comparable because they are performing two different functions for two different types of tanks. And I do enjoy my pimp wagons so yes, where's my 1600 corpum-A type plate for my alt? CCP GET ON IT
Ampoliros Phantom Knights	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:14:00 - [80] I'd just like to point out, though, that aside from faction/deadspace gear, its much easier to get a perma-sustainable armor tank than a shield tank. 5x PDSs and 2x cap recharger 2s still isn't sustainable with an XL SB2 (on a raven/scorp), whereas 2-3x CPRs and 4-5x cap recharger (best named) will run 2x LAR2s forever. ------------------------------------ Tech2 Superweapon ftw:
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.17 21:01:00 - [81] Originally by: Ampoliros I'd just like to point out, though, that aside from faction/deadspace gear, its much easier to get a perma-sustainable armor tank than a shield tank. 5x PDSs and 2x cap recharger 2s still isn't sustainable with an XL SB2 (on a raven/scorp), whereas 2-3x CPRs and 4-5x cap recharger (best named) will run 2x LAR2s forever. You don't need permatank for anything. Not that you will tank all that well with all those relays. Ps.only battleship with viable permatank dual lar is apoc.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.10.17 21:51:00 - [82] Edited by: dalman on 17/10/2006 21:53:23 Originally by: Choi Originally by: LUKEC So you are telling me that... raven with t2 xl booster, boost amp and crystals won't boost 600x1.3x1.53? (1.53 beeing crystal set factor) Or will the stacking penalty kick in once you fit 2 boost amps? Well also mass will go up and there isn't many ships that easily fit more than 2 plates anyway(ok lolergeddon with 5x plates, 3x hs II ... ). Like you can't fit more than 2 amps effectively(effectively = there can be better effect achieved by using other modules of similar price) Yes i'm well aware what your point is, but plates and pimp wagons are ugh... WTB chelm's modified plate... yes more than 2 amps is pointless and a waste or in this case including the crystals in your head fitting more than 1 amp is far less effective. Basicly its a nicer amp that frees up a midslot. Essentially the slaves and crystals are not comparable because they are performing two different functions for two different types of tanks. And I do enjoy my pimp wagons so yes, where's my 1600 corpum-A type plate for my alt? CCP GET ON IT Eh, the implants aren't subject to stacking penalty. Your reasoning about how many to fit is flawed. On the other hand, it is usually a bad idea to fit more than one amp anyway, as you've also got those invulnerability fields that... errr.... makes you invulnerable. And btw, a 'Corpum' mod would be a medium sized mod, not a 1600 :p Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.10.17 22:08:00 - [83] Originally by: dalman [ Eh, the implants aren't subject to stacking penalty. Your reasoning about how many to fit is flawed. On the other hand, it is usually a bad idea to fit more than one amp anyway, as you've also got those invulnerability fields that... errr.... makes you invulnerable. And btw, a 'Corpum' mod would be a medium sized mod, not a 1600 :p yup your right never noticed how small the penalty was to a second amp. just noticed that there was a small one and chalked it up to the implants. oh and btw I would make corpum the large mods and btw
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.18 20:33:00 - [84] Originally by: inSpirAcy Really, just stop posting in this thread. In case you didn't know, no one actually EVER takes advice given in forums. Originally by: inSpirAcy Your dire seriousness about the whole matter is clouding your ability to see humour for what it is, and it's making you look really stupid. I may LOOK stupid. I fear you may have taken things somewhat further. --- Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums; Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?" Cleese: "I've told you once."
B0rn2KiLL MicroFunks	Posted - 2006.10.20 21:52:00 - [85] couldnt give a rats ass about mission runners, or mega shield tankers all it says to me is cheaper t2 implants :) bring it on wee. <3 --- new sig, Hijack it and ill eat u. *Imaran hands B0rn2KiLL a fork - Come get some!11

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