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New complaint thread: Caldari Ammo should be ranged based

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Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Benjamin Olson Originally by: Taram Caldar What IS it with the missile hatred? 1) A torp will do ZERO damange (or damn near zero) to an inty hell.. even a frig takes almost no damage from a torp. 2) A fast ship FURTHER reduces torp damage. 3) Even heavy missiles take tremendous damage penalties against smaller ships. 4) Cruisers take reduced damage verses cruise missiles (and torps) unless they have a ton of shield extenders on them. 5) Only BS+ take full dmg from cruise and/or torp weapons. 1: A torp is a Battleship weapon. So using that same logic, tell me the next time you hit an inty with a Mega Pulse Laser II. Doesnt matter, no BS weapon will hit an inty at that speed. Invalid. 2: Fast ships dont reduce turret damage...They just dont hit at all, id rather hit for 40 damage than miss every time. Invalid. 3: We've been over this in the first two, so far all three arguments are the same. Invalid. 4: My word mate all 5 are the same arguments. A BS weapon wont hit a small ship for good damage, missiles ot turrets alike! Invalid again. 5: Read previous 4...Same with turrets. So erm if this is all missile users have to offer as an excuse, im rather scared. But either way I actually support the fact that missiles are balanced and the other 3 races arent. I just like to prove that most caldari pilots dont have very valid arguments as to WHY missiles are leet. You're missing the main point: Missiles are NOT "Caldari". They are race independant. Any race is equally capable of fitting missile launchers. So exactly how is it imbalanced for Caldari? Because we happen to have ships that are designed by the devs to better fit launchers than rails? Sorry I'm not buying. Everyone I know is dying for the new BS that's going to be a rail boat. If missiles were so 'awesome' and 'uber' why would that be?
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Taram Caldar You're missing the main point: Missiles are NOT "Caldari". They are race independant. Any race is equally capable of fitting missile launchers. So exactly how is it imbalanced for Caldari? Because we happen to have ships that are designed by the devs to better fit launchers than rails? Sorry I'm not buying. Everyone I know is dying for the new BS that's going to be a rail boat. If missiles were so 'awesome' and 'uber' why would that be? Good point... goes to fit 6 torps on his apoc. Crap!! gets out his geddon Bah! moves on to domi @#%%#@ mega? Son of a.... where'd I put that tempest thats a little better how bout that phoon hmm not bad... hey.. whats that raven thing over there? holy mother... this thing has a ton of missles, who made it? they make other ships to? and most of them have lots of missles? cool, guess they must be some kind of missle race or something.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:09:00 - [33] I see a lot of clueless people in this thread that seem to be confusing t2 torps on a Raven with general missile balance. Javelin Torps are indeed unbalanced. Anyone who argues otherwise is also clueless. However, that single fact does NOT equate to all missiles being unbalanced. People need to pick up some critical thinking skills. All life is sacred... until the client says otherwise.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:19:00 - [34] Originally by: Taram Caldar You're missing the main point: Missiles are NOT "Caldari". They are race independant. Any race is equally capable of fitting missile launchers. Missiles, like all weapons except drones, are more or less useless without a ship bonus oriented towards them. Like hybrids and projectiles, this bonus is damage related... --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:32:00 - [35] Originally by: Hllaxiu Originally by: Taram Caldar You're missing the main point: Missiles are NOT "Caldari". They are race independant. Any race is equally capable of fitting missile launchers. Missiles, like all weapons except drones, are more or less useless without a ship bonus oriented towards them. Like hybrids and projectiles, this bonus is damage related... I'm sorry, that is just too much thinking and against the point a Pro-Caldari Zealot would like to make.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Tovarishch I see a lot of clueless people in this thread that seem to be confusing t2 torps on a Raven with general missile balance. Javelin Torps are indeed unbalanced. Anyone who argues otherwise is also clueless. However, that single fact does NOT equate to all missiles being unbalanced. People need to pick up some critical thinking skills. HMM good point. I have heard that the Javelin is imbalanced from folks I trust. But missiles in general, in my personal experience, generally have lower damage arcs than equivalent gun/laser rigs.
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:15:00 - [37] Cant snipe with missiles? If you try to snipe with torps are a fool, Cruise missiles doesnt take that long to hit, they hit hard and they hurt.
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:26:00 - [38] Originally by: Taram Caldar You're missing the main point: Missiles are NOT "Caldari". They are race independant. Any race is equally capable of fitting missile launchers. Missile launchers are 8 times out of 10 a Caldari weapon. Those two missing times the weapon is either the one-off Minmatar or a Stealth Bomber. You see, using the logic that launchers aren't Caldari weapons because other ships can fit them (by the way, in the T1 ship line up there's 5 launchers in the Gallente fleet and 6 launchers in the Amarr fleet), we have that projectiles are strictly not Minmatar weapons because every other ship in game can fit them with the explicit exception of: Kestrel, Manticore, all Mining Barges, the Deep Space Transports, and all Carriers. I might've missed a ship or two. You see, only Caldari ever get bonuses to missiles. That they are not balanced specifically for Caldari is a remnant of that missiles once actually were a race-less weapon. A remnant from the time when Caldari used railguns exclusively. - Three years old
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:40:00 - [39] Originally by: Ithildin You see, only Caldari ever get bonuses to missiles. Khanid ships? The 'phoon? The Ares? The Eris? Breacher, Inquisitor, Lachesis... ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Ithildin Gallente The Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:45:00 - [40] Originally by: keepiru Originally by: Ithildin You see, only Caldari ever get bonuses to missiles. Khanid ships? The 'phoon? The Ares? The Eris? Breacher, Inquisitor, Lachesis... Argh! You just HAD to pick out the only passage in my text where I wasn't careful. Originally by: Ithildin You see, only Caldari ever reliably get missile bonuses to each ship class. P.S. Ares and Eris... You just had to pick two of the three (Heretic) ships in game that suffer the most from getting missile bonuses, didn't you? - Three years old
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Godar Marak Cant snipe with missiles? If you try to snipe with torps are a fool, Cruise missiles doesnt take that long to hit, they hit hard and they hurt. What about sniping with t2 torps? Anyhow in the 20+ seconds or so it would take to hit someone over 150km away with t2 javalin torps, they will have already warped out. --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:51:00 - [42] Wow, I would just love for the missiles to be range based, ofcourse we would have to make them like turrets then, but that would be soo sweet.. your bane torp hits retard, wrecking for 3000 !!!11!one!!! OMG, that would be sweet... I vote the OP for president.
keepiru Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:58:00 - [43] Yes, if you look at it carefully you'll notice that bar a few exceptions (ships which are mostly strong for other reasons) non-caldari ships with launcher bonuses are prettty pathetic at pure combat. This is mostly, as youve noted, because of split weapons. The fact that launcher slots on minnie ships are left empty or used for launchers 99% of the time should tell you all you need to know really. Missiles as secondary (unbonused) weapons are a waste of time. (I believe a 5-launcher, 5/4/6 sacrilege would kick butt. But thats by the by.) Thats not that surprising though - launchers are usually balanced to do the same damage as a hybrid gun of the same class/range type with lead ammo, and hybrids need a damage bonus to compete. Whats the point of my post? I'm not sure myself. Still, you dont screw up often, so it was just too good an opportunity to pass up ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Nyxus Rage: slower, 1000m expl rad, meant for cap ships. But with 3 tps from a skilled player, they do omfg damage to BS. Please don't comment on things that you have never used, and dont have a clue about. Javelin torps roast hacs alive, except for an unwebbed Vaga (3800m/s+). Nyxus Just curious, but have you ever used Rage torps? It takes 3 TPS, and the target to be a stationary BS. If the target is anything other than a BS, or it's moving, you're not doing that uber damage. Realistically, you have to triple/quadruple paint AND web the BS to get that full damage. Simply painting a moving BS doesn' always cut it. And that uber damage is still only 66-70% of a neutron gank mega, and the gank mega can do that damage to a BC or HAC, you will never do uber rage torp damage to a BC or HAC, unless they flood their mids with extenders. He's also talking about Rages against HACS it looks like, not Javelins. Javelins are good against HACs, but they're not godly, and they're certainly not as effective as an AC or blasterboat ripping into the webbed HAC. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:09:00 - [45] Originally by: Benjamin Olson Originally by: Taram Caldar What IS it with the missile hatred? 1) A torp will do ZERO damange (or damn near zero) to an inty hell.. even a frig takes almost no damage from a torp. 2) A fast ship FURTHER reduces torp damage. 3) Even heavy missiles take tremendous damage penalties against smaller ships. 4) Cruisers take reduced damage verses cruise missiles (and torps) unless they have a ton of shield extenders on them. 5) Only BS+ take full dmg from cruise and/or torp weapons. 1: A torp is a Battleship weapon. So using that same logic, tell me the next time you hit an inty with a Mega Pulse Laser II. Doesnt matter, no BS weapon will hit an inty at that speed. Invalid. 2: Fast ships dont reduce turret damage...They just dont hit at all, id rather hit for 40 damage than miss every time. Invalid. 3: We've been over this in the first two, so far all three arguments are the same. Invalid. 4: My word mate all 5 are the same arguments. A BS weapon wont hit a small ship for good damage, missiles ot turrets alike! Invalid again. 5: Read previous 4...Same with turrets. So erm if this is all missile users have to offer as an excuse, im rather scared. But either way I actually support the fact that missiles are balanced and the other 3 races arent. I just like to prove that most caldari pilots dont have very valid arguments as to WHY missiles are leet. Your inty will get blown apart at range by a sniper BS every time. stuff like lead might not have the damage of T2 or the range, but it doesn't take alot to pop one. Lead from a 425mm or 1400mm arties will make a small ship go pop from far away. Missiles won't, and you will also do bad missile damage whether the ship is moving or sitting still. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:10:00 - [46] This kind of post should be banned from forums. It is like discussing religions. Some players worship missiles. Some players worship turrets. Some players worship drones. Some players worship drones and nosferatus. I am a missretologist and this thread offends me. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Pax Caldaria.
Hephaesteus Gallente	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:21:00 - [47] I'd like to see the ranges changed a little. Have torps as short range ammo, because you sacrifice propellent (range) for the size of the charge in the warhead and vice versa for cruise. Would add more in the way of tactics when using missles. Before anyone asks, yes I do sometimes use torps at long range. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Dagnis The Priory Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.10.15 23:01:00 - [48] Edited by: Dagnis on 15/10/2006 23:02:28 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Your inty will get blown apart at range by a sniper BS every time. stuff like lead might not have the damage of T2 or the range, but it doesn't take alot to pop one. Lead from a 425mm or 1400mm arties will make a small ship go pop from far away. Missiles won't, and you will also do bad missile damage whether the ship is moving or sitting still. There are no way in hell u would hit an inty with a sniper bs. The only way would be if the inty was sitting still, if he was webbed or if he was stupid enuff to head straight for u and any inty pilot with a little bit of intelligance wouldent do that.
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.16 00:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Realistically, you have to triple/quadruple paint AND web the BS to get that full damage. Simply painting a moving BS doesn' always cut it. Hughinns 4tw baby. Alternatively you can do webbing drones + tps and an armor tank, or just split the TPs between your ship and a couple of others. The other night I was in a gang where the typhoon had 3 TPs and I had 1. Full tanks for us both, massive damage. Webbing drones work suprisingly well with missile ships, but take FOREVER to come back to the hold. Quote: And that uber damage is still only 66-70% of a neutron gank mega, and the gank mega can do that damage to a BC or HAC, you will never do uber rage torp damage to a BC or HAC, 70% of a Neutron Gank Mega, king of damage that sacrifices range, tank, sustainability, and needs a tackler to get that damage? Why would ANYONE complain about that? (HINT: They aren't) Quote: He's also talking about Rages against HACS it looks like, not Javelins. Javelins are good against HACs, but they're not godly, and they're certainly not as effective as an AC or blasterboat ripping into the webbed HAC Honestly, he doesn't know what he is talking about. The discussion was about Javs, he started spouting about "Banes" having 1000 expl rad, and that torpedos couldnt hurt hacks. He was sorely confused. Hopefully differentiating them for him helps. TBH I just don't think he has ever used T2 torps in PVP and was trying to "forum war" without any first hand knowledge. And Javs aren't as effective as a webbed hac in blaster range. But then again, Javs don't require the HAC to be anywhere near blaster range. Javs + webdrones + TP = HACs in pain. But the OP has a good point. Turret weapons with different damage are forced to lessen the damage at range, and only do certain damages at specific ranges. EMP L vs Phased, etc. If missile ships don't get a damage specific (ie kinetic) bonus then the Ammo should vary by range/speed. For Example: EMP: more damage, slower speed, larger expl rad. Thermal: Less damage, medium speed, small expl rad Kin: moderate damage, high speed, medium sig rad EXPL: less damage, high speed, small expl rad Or something like that. It would force more tactical decisions on ammo type. As it stands now, the time of impact of the first salvo is all that Javelins sacrifice in a dps sense. After that it's just the ROF. And the fact that Javs go 100km+ is just silly. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Azaeren AWFUL INDUSTRIES LMTD GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.16 00:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Nyxus words This. ____________________________________________________ Now accepting donations for capital ship skillbooks :X
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 00:41:00 - [51] Originally by: Nyxus And the fact that Javs go 100km+ is just silly. I think the whole T2 ammos idea is silly. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Pax Caldaria.
Tyler Lowe Minmatar DROW Org Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 15/10/2006 19:26:40 Originally by: Retrax Just wait until Assault Cruise Missiles come out. Then it will be balanced. Yeah. Train for months to get tech 2 guns, and still do less damage than newbies in Ravens. That kind of balance. I tried 1200 artillery on my typhoon today and ive never been so disappointed by Eve before. My gunnery skills are pretty good, and my missile skills suck. Yet the cruise missiles I was firing was doing almost double the damage of a normal artillery hit. I was using the same damage type on missiles and ammo too. And about the same rof. I ran the numbers in NB's excel spread sheet too, and seems Im right.. artillery dps is really, really low compared to cruise missiles. Not even the 1400's are close to even cruise missiles, not to mention torpedoes. I knew they had low dps, but.. this is just silly. Put them on a Tempest instead. You're trying to use an alpha strike weapon without the alpha strike bonus. Arty doesn't need much more adjustment. Better tracking, about a 50% increase in clip size and they are pretty much good to go IMO. The damage mod on them is fine. If there is any tweeking done with dps, it needs to be an adjustment to the RoF bonuses on Minny ships, and that should be examined case by case not a blanket change. J.A.F.O.
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:38:00 - [53] The previous few arguments stating missiles are not just a caldari weapon are false. For all intents and purposes that is. Think for two seconds, what race gets ships with 6 missile slots alone? Caldari. What race gets more bonuses to missiles than an old man can shake a stick at? Caldari. Now this goes both ways, who gets laser bonuses? Amarr. Are lasers amarr weapons? Yes. Are missiles Caldari weapons? Yes. Now occasionaly do cross races get missile bonuses? Yes. All their high slots filled with them? No... Do Caldari occasionaly get turret hardpoints? Yes. Missiles go to Caldari like Lasers to Amarr. Quote: Basically we've established, EVE physics > Amarr
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Azaeren Originally by: Yumi Katanawe Quote: Well my opinion blablabla so we need this That pretty much sums up your post. No, it is a fact that missile ships have choice of damage type without any penalty what so ever. But you point blank refuse to see the very significant weaknesses that go with being a missile pilot, you're only moaning because you don't use them and you're bitter. Why do people want everything to be the same? Too many people are under the illusion that because Caldari are different, they're better. I'll say to you the same thing to you that I say to everyone who thinks Caldari ships and weapon systems are the be all and end all, try flying them. Originally by: anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Dagnis Edited by: Dagnis on 15/10/2006 23:02:28 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Your inty will get blown apart at range by a sniper BS every time. stuff like lead might not have the damage of T2 or the range, but it doesn't take alot to pop one. Lead from a 425mm or 1400mm arties will make a small ship go pop from far away. Missiles won't, and you will also do bad missile damage whether the ship is moving or sitting still. There are no way in hell u would hit an inty with a sniper bs. The only way would be if the inty was sitting still, if he was webbed or if he was stupid enuff to head straight for u and any inty pilot with a little bit of intelligance wouldent do that. uhm , yes you will, and it will be quite painful. 5 km/s at 220 km isn't that much transversal.
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:50:00 - [56] You guys realize that torpedos, rockets and such do high damage, at ranges that are comparable to long-range turrets with medium-range ammo? AND you don't need to use a mwd to do it? Nor do you need to worry about tracking or transversal. If you're moving toward a rocket crow, for instance, its rockets may only technically have a 15km range, but because you are moving toward the rockets they can effectively get a 30km range, and the same applies to torpedos. Missiles are overpowered because they are so easy to use and yet are just as effective and more so, than turrets. You don't have to switch your setup to deal with different situations. You guys just don't realize how good you have it. One launcher to win them all.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.10.16 02:00:00 - [57] The whole missiles always hit argument is a crock of ** also. Get slight velocity in your frigate and you're basically invulnerable to anything bigger than a precision cruise missile. Javelins do bugger all to a useful inty pilot. The fact that people are suggesting that a torp Raven should be completely unable to fight at range is silly. "But what about blastersthrons and AC pests?", you scream! They do masses more damage at the cost of range. Javelins hit for average damage and are averagely useful at long range. Nothing spectacular there then? Remember, range is a hell of a lot easier to dictate than damage. If you nerf Javelins you nerf the entire point in being a torp combat pilot. Tech I torps are hideous in pvp and to use Rage you have to gimp your setup ridiculously. Javelins are the only useful torpedo ammo. Correction, the only useful tech II Caldari ammo. Originally by:** anonymous If you're being chased by a police dog, try not to go through a tunnel, then on to a little seesaw, then jump through a hoop of fire. They're trained for that.
Hayabusa Fury Caldari Wu-Tang Financial Mordus Angels	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:24:00 - [58] Another balance issue that is not being discussed is the speed and sig radius of caldari boats. They are slow and big! That means there is no listed stat/bonus for turrets getting better tracking agaist caldari ships, but it is a fact. Since every race can dictate distance and speed against caldari ships, it seems reasonable that caldari would use a weapon that can be used at any range. The changing ammo type at will is a misnomer as well. It takes forever to change missle type. It takes forever to get the damn things to stop firing after a kill. Any bonus to DPS by picking the best damage type is lost in the RoF and firing at a new target. They're balanced well enough. I personally fly Caldari only and have gone to all the hybrid ships because of the frustration with the ineffectiveness of missles overall. I seem to notice that the good caldari PvE boats are missle while the good PvP are Hybrid. ---------------- "I can not recall the number of times my superior intellect has got me knee deep in ****!" --Harely Hayes
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:35:00 - [59] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire This kind of post should be banned from forums. It is like discussing religions. Thats the most inaccurate statement from you yet, Jenny... Discussing game balance isnt anywhere close to discussing religion. You just dont want to hear more of the missile whine, because you are tired of it. But the forums are for discussing the game, you know... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zixxa	Posted - 2006.10.16 09:20:00 - [60] Originally by: Nyxus FYI I fly: Amarr BS 5, large beam t2, large pulse T2 Gall BS 4, t2 large drones Caldari BS 4, t2 torps, t2 heavies, t2 rockets I have the breadth of sps that allows me to make a good comparison by actully flying them all in pvp. Raven is just plain better for anything outside of extreme sniping, which is a very small part of actual pvp. Try a bit of PvP, dude. Fleet battle, big gang battle. May be you understand something. Raven is useless in fleet battle, useless as sniper(and FYI, dude, it is quite important part of pvp) and not shine as solo PvP. So raven is only for PvE and small gang.

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