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New complaint thread: Caldari Ammo should be ranged based

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Azaeren AWFUL INDUSTRIES LMTD GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.15 14:06:00 - [1] While chatting it up with fellow Goons earlier, I realized something. Missiles and the like, dont have ranges. With all the other races, the ammo type you use either gives you longer range<Carbonized Lead, Iridium, Microwave>, or shorter range <EMP, Antimatter, Multifreq>. While missiles, the only difference is the damage they do. They get ZERO range penalty, no matter how far from the target they are. They still do full damage, of course depending on the size of the target. To counter the caldari complaint of, but guns can still insta pop frigates, while torps take a few shots, Transversal for a gun to target pretty much means, ZERO damage dealt. Especially if using T2 ammo. Torps would still atleast, do SOME damage. Ease of NPCing/Missioning. A pilot in a raven can pretty much npc in any area of the game, be damned the damage type he needs. Just change the missile type and bam, instant cash flow. An amarr pilot fighting down south against angels is pretty useless, Being that angels tank the damage type used by laser guns. cant just change a crystal out, and do whatever you want, depending on where you are. You gotta train up for a new weapon type to fit on your ship. So, justify with some type of proof, as to why caldari dont have it easy? Not just "Well my opinion blablabla so we need this!" ____________________________________________________ Now accepting donations for capital ship skillbooks :X
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.10.15 14:23:00 - [2] Edited by: Azerrad InExile on 15/10/2006 14:23:13 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Caldari are not overpowered. They are balanced. They used to be overpowered though. Other races are not balanced and that is the reason Caldari appear to be overpowered at the moment. That about sums it up really. Linkage
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 14:26:00 - [3] Missile is not Caldari ammo, it's missile ammo. Caldari use both missile and railguns and there are ships from the other races that use missiles as well. Missiles get no range penalty but also no range bonus. It's one of the things that make them different, not one of the things that make them better.
Azaeren AWFUL INDUSTRIES LMTD GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:11:00 - [4] Originally by: Hoshi Missile is not Caldari ammo, it's missile ammo. Caldari use both missile and railguns and there are ships from the other races that use missiles as well. Missiles get no range penalty but also no range bonus. It's one of the things that make them different, not one of the things that make them better. They can still hit out to 100km+ depending on fitting and skills. Thats in sniper distance with large gun ships. So the No range bonus doesnt mean crap. And, caldari are STILL the main missile raise. Hence the reason why they dont have a railgun battleship. And you cant really say the Moa/eagle are worth two craps. Sure they can reach far, but are still horrid damage dealers. I am minmatar, the other supposed missile race. Ive got more skills in drones then missiles. Most of the other T2 flyable minmatar people i know, hace **** missiles skills also. ____________________________________________________ Now accepting donations for capital ship skillbooks :X
karrak Ruffians	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:25:00 - [5] A turret ship will get of 2-3 salvos heck maybee even 4 or more depending on turret size, before a misille will hit, balancing out the damage difference inn long range ammos.
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:26:00 - [6] Raven has no dmg bonuses. thron, tempest does. laser do the most dmg with the disadvanatge of using cap so the apoc gives large bonuses to cap use. also you will find like where i npc that npc rats shoot down your torps. i believe only the bs use defenders on you but i may be wrong. i have found that sometimes only 3 or 4 torps are hitting, the others have been shot down. though missiles can get some serious range, Guns hit instantly missiles take time. bigger the missile longer it takes. For ceptors, the crow is verstile, can go close range or long range. i believe my crow can hit at 30km with missiles. what ceptor can hit that far however you will find that the crow has poor armor hp. not saying that armor reps are better than shield boots but in a ceptor your mid slots are important. point is, missiles are fine as they are, if anything defender missiles for pvp purposes need to be better.
Zakgram Apocalyptic Raiders Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Azaeren They can still hit out to 100km+ depending on fitting and skills. Thats in sniper distance with large gun ships. Except it takes minutes for the missiles to reach the target... sort of a sniper who doesn't snipe. Originally by: Azearen Ive got more skills in drones then missiles. Most of the other T2 flyable minmatar people i know, hace **** missiles skills also. I've got crap gun skills. I don't get your point... you need better skills if you want to use missiles? Or? And we get the rail battleship "soon(tm)". Rokh on baby!
CptEagle Gallente Stargate Command...	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:32:00 - [8] /signed.
Pestillence Chav-Scum	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:37:00 - [9] They DO get a range penalty. The penalty is that most people can dock up by the time they would have hit.
Azaeren AWFUL INDUSTRIES LMTD GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.15 15:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Pestillence They DO get a range penalty. The penalty is that most people can dock up by the time they would have hit. Thats moronic. As in, Anyone can dock before someone attains a lock and fires. If a gunner does get hits on a docker, itll be shield damage, which means nothing. So far, no one has come up with any sortof real point, other then 'range'. Thats why there are tacklers. Also, Missile ships should be used up close anyway, not far away. See Burn eden raven gangs. ____________________________________________________ Now accepting donations for capital ship skillbooks :X
Yumi Katanawe Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:08:00 - [11] Quote: Well my opinion blablabla so we need this That pretty much sums up your post.
Azaeren AWFUL INDUSTRIES LMTD GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Yumi Katanawe Quote: Well my opinion blablabla so we need this That pretty much sums up your post. No, it is a fact that missile ships have choice of damage type without any penalty what so ever. ____________________________________________________ Now accepting donations for capital ship skillbooks :X
FFGR Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:21:00 - [13] For the 2356275th time : Missiles are nice when PvEing cause you get full damage against NPCs because they are dependent on what the target is doing (webbed/painted/mwding ect) and have a delayed damage at range that you don't care much about (since they aren't going to warp away). They are easier to use when PvEing than guns are. In PvP, missiles are good only in low speed targets and fairly close range because of their nature having to follow (or intercept) a target. The fact that scramble range is 20km, together with most missile boats having a speed bonus on their missiles pretty much makes them instahit. Guns and Missiles are 2 different systems that work differently both in the aspect of how damage is calculated and how damage is done. Oh and we are waiting for Tuxford's handywork on Defender missiles _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Yumi Katanawe Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:26:00 - [14] It is a fact missile ammo is comparatively less convenient to use. It is a fact that when facing turret users one must pilot to keep transversal while facing missile boats all one needs is to just keep moving. Moving fast enough will totally negate missile damage. It is a fact missile DPS is lower than turret DPS (under optimal conditions). The real fact here is that both turret and missiles have advantadge and disadvantadges when compared with each other and thus are situationally better. The only situation where missiles are just plain better is against NPC's. However this is more because of the Raven compared against other races BS's - but there is a price to pay for that: there are no thoraxes, mallers or ruptures in the caldari T1 line up.
Lucas Garin Caldari Shadows of the Dead Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:28:00 - [15] Originally by: Azaeren No, it is a fact that missile ships have choice of damage type without any penalty what so ever. So what. Missiles are different than guns. Missiles have their strengths and weaknesses same as guns, they're just different. If people like you had your way, we'd all be firing different weapons that all acted the same way. BORING.
Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:38:00 - [16] Well, the thing is that guns have the capability to do more damage (or a ton more damage at close range) than missiles. Also, guns will hit their targets instantly, which is extremely important in sniping battles (as we've noticed). Missiles have no damage-range penalty but the fact that their damage is lower to begin with as well as the fact that it takes 30 seconds to reach your max range (a BS can align and warp well within that time) is enough of a hassle. However, I do agree with you that in PvE, missiles are easy street. In PvP though, real long range snipers use guns. ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Ismern In PvP though, real long range snipers use guns. No, really? (sorry, the voices made me do it) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:54:00 - [18] They do have it easy. And with the current implementation of precision and Javelin and the ROF bonus on the Raven, it's no wonder that they are just hands down better. Originally by: Depp Knight Raven has no dmg bonuses. Umm....did you even look? See that ROF bonus? Yea, thats the equivalent of a 33% damage bonus. Quote: Except it takes minutes for the missiles to reach the target... sort of a sniper who doesn't snipe. Thats pretty much a gross exaggeration isn't it? And Javelin Ravens do the same damage as a close range BS at long ranges. All long range ships need a tackler/bubbler in order to get kills on people who are half awake, otherwise the targets just warp out. If the target is tackled, T2 Ravens are just plain better for all ranges outside of EXTREME 200km sniping. Missiles in general are easier to train, and more effective outside of long range sniping. The Raven is even moreso since it didn't get a Kinetic damage bonus like ALL the other missile ships, but rather an ROF bonus to all damage types. I will continue to abuse my T2 Raven till they finally give it the good nerf it deserves. FYI I fly: Amarr BS 5, large beam t2, large pulse T2 Gall BS 4, t2 large drones Caldari BS 4, t2 torps, t2 heavies, t2 rockets I have the breadth of sps that allows me to make a good comparison by actully flying them all in pvp. Raven is just plain better for anything outside of extreme sniping, which is a very small part of actual pvp. Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:55:00 - [19] What IS it with the missile hatred? 1) A torp will do ZERO damange (or damn near zero) to an inty hell.. even a frig takes almost no damage from a torp. 2) A fast ship FURTHER reduces torp damage. 3) Even heavy missiles take tremendous damage penalties against smaller ships. 4) Cruisers take reduced damage verses cruise missiles (and torps) unless they have a ton of shield extenders on them. 5) Only BS+ take full dmg from cruise and/or torp weapons. furthermore: ALL RACES are capable of mounting missiles. It's not a Caldari skill! We just happen to use them more than most since most of our ships have more friggin missile fittings than gun fittings. Frankly a LOT of caldari pilots wind up speccing for Minmatar or Galente ships anyway. I've even considered it. Guns are better for PVP any day. I use Missiles because I'm a relatively newer player and training missiles up to be effective (not powerful... effective) in PVP was quicker. I fully plan to switch to rails or blasters eventually. Also: Caldari ships are, on average, much slower than any other ship in the game. All our ships fly as if they were 1 class bigger. The Kestrel and Merlin are right around the same speed as most other race's cruisers. Our cruisers are comparable to most other race's Battle Cruisers and on up the line. Hell a RAVEN flies a whopping 130mps or so, AFTER adding in navigation 5.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.15 16:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 15/10/2006 16:58:10 Originally by: Azaeren Originally by: Pestillence They DO get a range penalty. The penalty is that most people can dock up by the time they would have hit. Thats moronic. As in, Anyone can dock before someone attains a lock and fires. If a gunner does get hits on a docker, itll be shield damage, which means nothing. So far, no one has come up with any sortof real point, other then 'range'. Thats why there are tacklers. Also, Missile ships should be used up close anyway, not far away. See Burn eden raven gangs. Hmm Missile ships shouldn't be used 'up close'. Rocket ships should. Rockets and Blasters. Missiles are for mid-range combat. Not close-range.
Cosmo Raata Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:21:00 - [21] Torps should be with max skills a 50km max range weapon....then add mods to game like tracking computers are with optimal range to guns...to allow someone to hit with torps at a max of 100km. Cruise Rage should hit at 100km max, normals at 130max and precisions at 175. With the range mods you can extend the precisions to 250km. You can figure out what to do with the rest.
Yumi Katanawe Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:22:00 - [22] Edited by: Yumi Katanawe on 15/10/2006 17:24:14 Originally by: Nyxus And Javelin Ravens do the same damage as a close range BS at long ranges No, bane ravens do that damage - and bane torps have a 1000m explosion radius - how many painters you need to hit a hac for full?
JoCool Caldari Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:28:00 - [23] Edited by: JoCool on 15/10/2006 17:29:24 Missiles do not do the same damage at far range as close range. They have a build in damage modifier related to ranges, based on the speed of the missiles. Less damage the further they travel. You just have to use your brain a bit and consider that the time of an engagement is not infinite. Calculate the DPS done by a Torpedo for 30 seconds from 10km and then 30km, then 80km. People just relying on knowledge based on numbers and paper should not be allowed to post here. Just do influence the amorph mass. _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Yumi Katanawe Edited by: Yumi Katanawe on 15/10/2006 17:24:14 Originally by: Nyxus And Javelin Ravens do the same damage as a close range BS at long ranges No, bane ravens do that damage - and bane torps have a 1000m explosion radius - how many painters you need to hit a hac for full? Do you actually USE T2 torps? They come in 2 varieties. Javelin: fast as a cruiser missile, torpedo damage, 300m expl rad Rage: slower, 1000m expl rad, meant for cap ships. But with 3 tps from a skilled player, they do omfg damage to BS. Please don't comment on things that you have never used, and dont have a clue about. Javelin torps roast hacs alive, except for an unwebbed Vaga (3800m/s+). Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Nyxus GALAXIAN Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:38:00 - [25] Originally by: JoCool Edited by: JoCool on 15/10/2006 17:29:24 Missiles do not do the same damage at far range as close range. They have a build in damage modifier related to ranges, based on the speed of the missiles. Less damage the further they travel. You just have to use your brain a bit and consider that the time of an engagement is not infinite. Calculate the DPS done by a Torpedo for 30 seconds from 10km and then 30km, then 80km. People just relying on knowledge based on numbers and paper should not be allowed to post here. Just do influence the amorph mass. LOL. They do the SAME damage @ 2km that they do @ 150km. The only difference in hte DPS calcs comes from the time it takes for the first salvo to reach the target. So it starts off a little low, then climbs to the 2km DPS number as the time of the fight gets longer. You are confusing DPS and damage done by the weapon when it impacts. They are different. Thats why forum jockeys like yourself say look at the speed and say "omg it does less" when people who actually fly them in PVP say "it's just plain better". JoCool: I posted what I can fly. Why don't you post yours and we can find out who is the nub and talking about things he knows nothing about? Nyxus Originally by: Tux The thought of a missile spewing armor tanking cool black looking ship makes me happy in the pants
Benjamin Olson	Posted - 2006.10.15 17:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Taram Caldar What IS it with the missile hatred? 1) A torp will do ZERO damange (or damn near zero) to an inty hell.. even a frig takes almost no damage from a torp. 2) A fast ship FURTHER reduces torp damage. 3) Even heavy missiles take tremendous damage penalties against smaller ships. 4) Cruisers take reduced damage verses cruise missiles (and torps) unless they have a ton of shield extenders on them. 5) Only BS+ take full dmg from cruise and/or torp weapons. 1: A torp is a Battleship weapon. So using that same logic, tell me the next time you hit an inty with a Mega Pulse Laser II. Doesnt matter, no BS weapon will hit an inty at that speed. Invalid. 2: Fast ships dont reduce turret damage...They just dont hit at all, id rather hit for 40 damage than miss every time. Invalid. 3: We've been over this in the first two, so far all three arguments are the same. Invalid. 4: My word mate all 5 are the same arguments. A BS weapon wont hit a small ship for good damage, missiles ot turrets alike! Invalid again. 5: Read previous 4...Same with turrets. So erm if this is all missile users have to offer as an excuse, im rather scared. But either way I actually support the fact that missiles are balanced and the other 3 races arent. I just like to prove that most caldari pilots dont have very valid arguments as to WHY missiles are leet.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.15 18:14:00 - [27] Originally by: Azaeren stuff Wellcome to EVE, I hope you enjoy your free trial and stay for exciting new experiences ____________________ Darko1107 > does anything in ascn space have tech II fittings? Quillan Rage > Iron ships
Yumi Katanawe Caldari Demon Womb Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.15 18:24:00 - [28] You didn't read the post. I'm calling your claim that javs do close range dps bs. What you are saying is that jav torps do blasterthron damage. You need banes to pump that dps and 3 painters ain't enough to flare up a hac up to 1000m
Retrax Caldari The Forge Association of Science and Industry	Posted - 2006.10.15 18:33:00 - [29] Just wait until Assault Cruise Missiles come out. Then it will be balanced. "Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." - Dr. Wernher von Braun
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.10.15 18:49:00 - [30] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 15/10/2006 18:54:42 Originally by: Retrax Just wait until Assault Cruise Missiles come out. Then it will be balanced. Yeah. Train for months to get tech 2 guns, and still do less damage than newbies in Ravens. That kind of balance. I tried 1200 artillery on my typhoon today and ive never been so disappointed by Eve before. My gunnery skills are pretty good, and my missile skills suck. Yet the cruise missiles I was firing was doing almost double the damage of a normal artillery hit. I was using the same damage type on missiles and ammo too. Not sure what the hell is going on... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

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