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What about BM:s take up so much resources?

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Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:01:00 - [1] Well, I'm in a situation where I need to escrow myself 12 bookmarks. And escrow gets stuck on "Loading" for 20 minutes, before I just skip it, and instead go with both chars to same station, and trade it in-between them. What is it about instas, really, that takes up so damn much resources? In my head I would figure it's an item with a unique name, with 3 different coordinate values in it (XYZ). How does having 12 of that make you lag for 20 minutes? Has any of the devs ever expressed the reason for what's so demanding about it? [ore mongers, recruiting]
solidshot Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:05:00 - [2] Bm's never used to lag in the way that they do now, dunno if their coding has been messed with or something but they have become rediculously laggy in recent times
Dukath	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:13:00 - [3] Think about it like this: There aer 10 bookmarks in total in the game, you want to copy 1 of them. Its very easy to find one single bookmark out of 10. Takes almost no time. Now add 5 billion bookmarks of all the other players. You still want to copy just one. Now the database needs to find that one bookmark out of 5 billion and add one extra to the 5 billion. Of course databases are optimised but even then, the more bookmarks in total, the longer it will take and the more memory it needs. And if it needs too much memory you will start swapping and that is not something you want.
Templer Relleg Blood Inquisition Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:24:00 - [4] I think its becauseof the datatype, the bookmarks are stored in, theres like 4 parameters at least, that defines a bookmark. Compared to a static value, like a 1mn mwd, this have to retrieve 4 values, from the database. When you search in a SQL database, the larger it gets, the slower it is to retrieve frm. Thus the more bookmarks there are, the longer does it take, to retrieve this dynamic values.
TRYPTIC	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:41:00 - [5] I'm not so sure it's a coding issue anymore. If it is, then the several weeks we have had these traffic and node crash problems points to a pretty weak programming staff at CCP. I'm beginning to wonder if it might be a hardware problem. CCP ballyhooed the installation of all sorts of new hardware. Did they underestimate the demands that would be placed on the hardware? Did they underestimate the growth of the the subscription base? All I know is what I've seen on the starmap, which might not be a very good indicator, but that's all we have atm. Traffic advisories heat up every time the player count goes above approx. 17,000. And, the problem is stable at best, not lessening when there are that many players on-line. I've been playing for well over a year now, and it's becoming pretty discouraging. My hat is off to those of you who have been playing longer than that - you have the patience of a saint. I pay for 2 accounts and expect better service than what I'm receiving now.
Le Donkey	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:47:00 - [6] They could take 24hrs to escrow for all I care if we were to have a lag free game
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:26:00 - [7] Individual bookmarks as items don't take up a lot of resources, but the vast number of them now in the game does. So CCP have deliberately added a massive slowdown factor to all bookmark operations in an attempt to discourage people from copying them. There's no real reason for it other than CCP desperately trying to rescue their dying hardware
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:12:00 - [8] why don't they make a complete set of bookmarks for all high sec instas in the game, pass it out to everyone, and delete any other bookmark within 30km of a gate? that should take care of a hell of a lot of duplicates, while still not ****ing off the pirates who rely on a hauler without instas for their money. or as i'd like to do a galactic insta initiative. but yeah, pirates hate instas sig indecision...lol Gaming Laptop
Okkie2	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:16:00 - [9] If you jump into a new system the game has to check all your BM's to see if they are BM's for this system. If you have a few thousand BM's and a lot of people changing systems this might need a lot of resources. Don't know if this is what's causing the lag, but it will put some heavy load on the servers.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:25:00 - [10] ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day.

Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.15 21:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 15/10/2006 21:26:09 Sorry double post
MissileRus	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:12:00 - [12] Edited by: MissileRus on 15/10/2006 22:12:21 instas cause high cpu usage ccp have nerfed the abillety to copy lots of them, why it "hangs" when you copy 12 is because 10 is the max now you can copy at once, and even then theres a long wait and thats not lag that wait is there by purpous. theres a nice blogg that explains it all --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Taram Caldar ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day. Make it Rank 10 as well, so that people who REALLY care about this will spend time training it, but those who are just trying to skip a bit here and there won't bother :-) MY SIG: Linkage Funny thread.
Rehmes	Posted - 2006.10.15 22:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Taram Caldar ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day. /signed
Kinomoto Sakura Amarr Turanic Raiders	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Taram Caldar ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day. Great idea /signed ---------------- Game The World.
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:50:00 - [16] Only BM fix I've seen that I like is the "Corp BM" option. A single set covers an entire corperation's needs without haveing 100+ copies of the exact same set clogging up the database doing the same thing as we have now. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Deven Sunstorm Security Forces Domain	Posted - 2006.10.16 01:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Rehmes Originally by: Taram Caldar ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day. /signed I agree with making it rank (8) or (10) /signed Deven Sunstorm ***Security Forces Domain -SecFo-
Traxman	Posted - 2006.10.16 02:16:00 - [18] BMs are with XYZ format, and for some system, wounder if there is some kind of exploit of having them client based instead, easy to copy, easy to send to friends and NO lag for servers. Just tell the client where we want to go (XYZ position...).. Anyone thinking about that ? Reinstall = loss of BMs but cant be that hard to restore..
Dax Bandar Gallente Guiding Star The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.16 02:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Taram Caldar ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day. No more needless skills are required, there are plenty of time sinks in this game already.
Sarpadeon Freedom Guard Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.16 02:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Traxman BMs are with XYZ format, and for some system, wounder if there is some kind of exploit of having them client based instead, easy to copy, easy to send to friends and NO lag for servers. Just tell the client where we want to go (XYZ position...).. Anyone thinking about that ? Reinstall = loss of BMs but cant be that hard to restore.. if they are on client side then people could modify bookmarks while out of game in the folder they are stored in and create insane offgrid safespots like the old "bookmark a constelation, then use it when i arive for a 200+ AU off from nearest object, unbreakable safe."

Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.16 03:46:00 - [21] remove instas altogether tho thats flaame bait so ignore it
Doc Brown Gallente Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.16 03:51:00 - [22] Hmm.. is it even possible to move BM's into a seperate system that isn't as effected by size as the present SQL solution? _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.
foolers	Posted - 2006.10.16 04:25:00 - [23] Quote: Hmm.. is it even possible to move BM's into a seperate system that isn't as effected by size as the present SQL solution? What do you propose as an alternative to an sql database?
Miss Overlord Gallente EUROPEANS	Posted - 2006.10.16 04:27:00 - [24] CCP keeping BMs server side to remain secure (security issue if client side)
Shiori Asukai	Posted - 2006.10.16 04:30:00 - [25] Edited by: Shiori Asukai on 16/10/2006 04:31:12 Originally by: Taram Caldar ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day. /Signed - but id rather have it called "Warp Trajectory Calibration" or something cool like ;b Edit - And also, rank 4 is a nice balance between time & effect.
Nunc F	Posted - 2006.10.16 06:47:00 - [26] /signed, but with the additional suggestion that it's a random offset (within the given range) from the target rather than a predictable one, so you can't work round it with instas.
Aaron Static Deep Space Consortium Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:26:00 - [27] couldnt I jus go 30km from the gate, make my insta.. then warp to it at 30km?
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Dax Bandar Originally by: Taram Caldar ALL CCP needs to do is this: 1) Get rid of BM's within 30km of Gates. Period 2) Implement a new skill (Make it a sub skill of Warp Drive Operation, make it require 3 skill in Warp Drive Operation to ulock it) called "Warp Accuracy" New Skill: Warp Accuracy 2.5 km Per Level reduction in distance from target that you can warp in Level 1: Warp within 12.5km becomes available Level 2: Warp within 10km becomes available Level 3: Warp within 7.5km becomes available Level 4: Warp within 5km becomes available Level 5: Warp within 2.5km becomes available Voila... nobody needs Instas anymore. Bubbles and 'dictors can still pull folks outta warp. Low Sec pirates can still prey on 'newbs' because most of them won't have the skill high enough to matter yet. This would allow removal of almost all 'object' oriented instas within the 15km range anywhere. No more need for gate instas or station instas or any other insta in the game because you would innately already have the ability to get them. The game wouldn't need to keep track of the BM's. Problem solved, lag gone. Have a nice day. No more needless skills are required, there are plenty of time sinks in this game already. Buuhuu I didnt train my learning skills and I wanne be able to be invulnerable anywhere? --- Praxitele's Inc. is Recruiting!
lofty29 Praxiteles Inc.	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:38:00 - [29] Originally by: Aaron Static couldnt I jus go 30km from the gate, make my insta.. then warp to it at 30km? Yep. Make it so there are no BMs within 150km of the gate. At this point it still allows snipers. --- Praxitele's Inc. is Recruiting!
Aaron Static Deep Space Consortium Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.16 08:50:00 - [30] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Aaron Static couldnt I jus go 30km from the gate, make my insta.. then warp to it at 30km? Yep. Make it so there are no BMs within 150km of the gate. At this point it still allows snipers. fair enuff... /signed then

GoddessHekate	Posted - 2006.10.16 10:48:00 - [31] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Aaron Static couldnt I jus go 30km from the gate, make my insta.. then warp to it at 30km? Yep. Make it so there are no BMs within 150km of the gate. At this point it still allows snipers. Typical comment from a pirate. Lets change the game so it feck every one else but I can still do my job.
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2006.10.16 11:58:00 - [32] 0km warp to option is already reality for most people, where they really need to go and need to have that option. Thats why we have bookmark hell. CCP should acknowledge that fact and implement the 0km warp to option as standard and kill all bms within 25k of the gates. And then set to work to make active countermeasures work better and in empire space against war targets too(and whathaveyous). And implement some options for the low sec pirates too ofc. Set auto to still warp to the 15k or even 20k mark for all I care. It might for a while benefit what some might percieve as the carebeary side of Eve. But I think its a worthwhile trade off for a while if it eliminates perhaps 75+% of bm juggling.
Temujin Shamen	Posted - 2006.10.16 12:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Trak Cranker 0km warp to option is already reality for most people, where they really need to go and need to have that option. Thats why we have bookmark hell. CCP should acknowledge that fact and implement the 0km warp to option as standard and kill all bms within 25k of the gates. And then set to work to make active countermeasures work better and in empire space against war targets too(and whathaveyous). And implement some options for the low sec pirates too ofc. Set auto to still warp to the 15k or even 20k mark for all I care. It might for a while benefit what some might percieve as the carebeary side of Eve. But I think its a worthwhile trade off for a while if it eliminates perhaps 75+% of bm juggling. i think a lot of people have a similar attitude. i left the game and gave up my character. i've trained up another but, tbh, the thing that is really stopping me coming back is the prospect of having to copy all those bm's again. I dont think gate instas serve any purpose anymore as anyone that needs them has them, which surely makes them about as pointless as an insta type skill? Just allow everyone to jump to gets at zero and make interdictors and warp bubbles more useful.
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.10.16 12:17:00 - [34] Originally by: Okkie2 If you jump into a new system the game has to check all your BM's to see if they are BM's for this system. If you have a few thousand BM's and a lot of people changing systems this might need a lot of resources. Don't know if this is what's causing the lag, but it will put some heavy load on the servers. This can be done on a client side, without lagging out other players. The only thing you have to do on server side is creating/copying/deleting bookmarks. And CCP stated their implementation of bookmarks is far from perfect. I think they are going to replace it in Kali.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.16 12:31:00 - [35] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Okkie2 If you jump into a new system the game has to check all your BM's to see if they are BM's for this system. If you have a few thousand BM's and a lot of people changing systems this might need a lot of resources. Don't know if this is what's causing the lag, but it will put some heavy load on the servers. This can be done on a client side, without lagging out other players. The only thing you have to do on server side is creating/copying/deleting bookmarks. And CCP stated their implementation of bookmarks is far from perfect. I think they are going to replace it in Kali. If they are client side then they are editable. That's why they're server side. They need to remove them from the game, at least around celestial objects (and I like the idea of removing them from within 115km of a celestial object). Still lets you make safe spots etc and bookmarks to complexes, etc. But removes the VAST majority of them. Im all for just getting 'warp within 2.5' free of charge. but I don't see it happening. Which is why I proposed the skill.
Ginger Magician Minmatar OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2006.10.16 12:40:00 - [36] I'm in favour of removal of bookmarks in 0.8 and above and implementation of warp to 0km for these systems.This measure would surely help reduce lag with minimal interference in gameplay but whether it is possible to implement or not I dont know.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.16 13:14:00 - [37] Edited by: Taram Caldar on 16/10/2006 13:13:47 Originally by: Ginger Magician I'm in favour of removal of bookmarks in 0.8 and above and implementation of warp to 0km for these systems.This measure would surely help reduce lag with minimal interference in gameplay but whether it is possible to implement or not I dont know. No offense but that would be a very very very small drop in the bucket. It wouldn't even be a blip on the radar. They need a solution that eliminates the need for instas. Period. Most people have them already or quickly get them or make them themselves as it is. All they are is a player-developed work-around to fix a game mechanic that is both annoying and broken. "Warp distance". Fix it so players have a way around it and one of the biggest causes of lag in the game goes away.
llIIIll	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:15:00 - [38] Originally by: Sarpadeon Originally by: Traxman BMs are with XYZ format, and for some system, wounder if there is some kind of exploit of having them client based instead, easy to copy, easy to send to friends and NO lag for servers. Just tell the client where we want to go (XYZ position...).. Anyone thinking about that ? Reinstall = loss of BMs but cant be that hard to restore.. if they are on client side then people could modify bookmarks while out of game in the folder they are stored in and create insane offgrid safespots like the old "bookmark a constelation, then use it when i arive for a 200+ AU off from nearest object, unbreakable safe." I'd like to see gate bm's removed but a very simple solution does exist to remove the bm lag, store them client side w/ a hashcode. All you have to do is when you bm a spot, store (X,Y,Z) and a Hash(X,Y,Z) on the client. So basically 100,200,300 goes through a crazy CCP algorythm and becomes 89128712. When you say you want to warp to 100,200,300 and the 'password' is 89128712. This way you can't modify the bookmarks. If you change the X,Y,Z the hash won't match, so you don't warp the person and you log them as trying to use an invalid bm. You obviously keep the hash server side only. Now this will let people distribute bm's offline, or create shared bm resources on the web. If this is a problem, include playerID in the hash to prevent it. This does raise some other problems, but it's literally 20 minutes to implement and would negate all the server side lag associated w/ bm's.
DeTox MinRohim Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:21:00 - [39] According to some 3rd party apps, there is already a non-public skill (Is it on Sisi or something ?) : Warp Navigation Skill at navigating in warp. 10% Bonus to warp accuracy and 10% less max range from desired warp location per level. Training (with my current stats) Warp Navigation I (27 minutes, 8 seconds) Warp Navigation II (2 hours, 6 minutes, 22 seconds) Warp Navigation III (11 hours, 54 minutes, 52 seconds) Warp Navigation IV (2 days, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 57 seconds) Warp Navigation V (15 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes, 59 seconds) Total time: 19 days, 7 hours, 8 minutes, 19 seconds ------ My EVO Stuff I am an Alt... get over it ! I take no responsability for your paranoia.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:28:00 - [40] dont even need the hash, keep them totally client side. the negatives of client side BMs are far out weighed by the positives to system load and sharing of them. you could move them between your other account easier, corps could just have the BM file up on their website for members to have the latest version. heck even the BM sellers could work better. you send them ISK and they send you a link to their web server and you DL the bookmarks.

evistin Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:30:00 - [41] Crud another another skill, make it 15% per level and I think we have a deal actually. ----------- Management and Leadership û The Eve-online Guide
omghax0r	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:32:00 - [42] $$plug$$ Guess what this week's eve.coldfront.net poll is on? :D $$endplug$$
llIIIll	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker dont even need the hash, keep them totally client side. the negatives of client side BMs are far out weighed by the positives to system load and sharing of them. you could move them between your other account easier, corps could just have the BM file up on their website for members to have the latest version. heck even the BM sellers could work better. you send them ISK and they send you a link to their web server and you DL the bookmarks. if you don't store a hash, people can modify the bms at any time, so you could effectively create bm's as you go to gate's etc. this prevents that, and this does keep them entirely client side, so not sure what you're saying
Delwin Amber	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:37:00 - [44] One of my corpmates asked me to post this so I guess I will. The basic concept for insta-replacement should not require a massive BP downtime. Trying to remove all BMÆs within X km of a gate is the wrong way to go. Instead make them unneeded and then tell everyone about the fact that most of the lag youÆre seeing is directly related to the number of bookmarks you have in your P&P. One of the reasons you lag out so much entering a grid has to do with the game having to parse your P&P û and that includes the 10K bookmarks you have in there. So to replace instas we come up with Scanlogs. If you have access to a Scanlog you can jump to dock/jump range of any celestial object in the log. With the change in Kali of asteroid belts from static celestial objects to mobile entities we would really only have the star, planets, moons, outposts/stations and gates in this scan log. Now on to the details: Topic 1: Types 1. Original Scanlogs 2. Copied Scanlogs Topic 2: Scanlog Storage 1. Corp/Alliance Scanlogs 2. Personal Scanlogs Topic 3: Scanlog Compiling 1. System Scanlogs 2. Constellation Scanlogs 3. Region Scanlogs Scanlog Types 1.1 Original Scanlogs SLOÆs are generated from a new high slot module called the System Log Scanner. This would be like a Cloak in that a crappy version could be mounted on almost anything but a T2 efficient version could be mounted on a unique class of ship û the Explorer. This ship would get bonuses for the System Log Scanner, T2 Probe Launchers, etc. A lot of the new systems in Kali would be used by this ship. SLOÆs are like bookmarks in that they live in your P&P. Unlike bookmarks however you can only copy them in Blueprint Copying slots to get SLCÆs. You cannot just copy them out by hand. 1.2 Copied Scanlogs The only difference between SLOÆs and SLCÆs is that SLCÆs cannot be copied and they can only be Personal Scanlogs (see below). This means they can be Copied into P&P but cannot be copied back out in any way. Scanlog Storage 2.1 Corp/Alliance Scanlogs SLOÆs can be donated (permanently) to the Corp or Alliance. If a Corp joins an Alliance they may donate their SLOÆs up the chain, but they can never be donated down the chain. All members of a Corp (or Alliance) can make use of all SLOÆs that entity has as if they were Personal Scanlogs. These SLOÆs however cannot be copied in any way and access to them is removed when the player is no longer part of that corp/alliance. Additionally an Alliance automatically gets an SLO for every system it has Sovereignty over. When Constellation Sovereignty it will bet a Constellation SLO for every Constellation it has Sovereignty over. Finally, Corps and Alliances cannot use SLCÆs in this manner, only SLOÆs 2.2 Personal Scanlogs Any Scanlog the player has (either SLO or SLC) is a Personal Scanlog and can be used no matter what. Scanlog Compiling 3.1 System Scanlogs A System Scanlog is a Log of all entities in a System and allows Warp to Dock/Jump range for any Celestial Object in that system. Note that come Kali 1 Asteroid Belts are no longer Celestial Objects. 3.2 Constellation Scanlogs If an Alliance has sovereignty over a Constellation or any entity (player, corp or Alliance) has SLOÆs for every system in a Constellation they may use a manufacturing station and an NPC sold template (or dropped off Officer spawns for those without NPC stations) to compile all the system SLOÆs into a Constellation SLO. This is a single object that allows Dock/Jump range warpins to every celestial object in all systems in that constellation. 3.3 Regional Scanlogs The rarest of Scanlogs they are created via the same method as the Constellation Scanlogs. You get the template from an NPC vendor in that region (or dropped off Officer spawns for those without NPC stations) and use current manufacturing methods to create a Regional SLO. This allows 1.5K warpins to every celestial object in all systems in that region.
Ralus eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:47:00 - [45] Edited by: Ralus on 16/10/2006 15:47:12 well since were posting about bm fixes now I personally liked the Starmap solution.
Taram Caldar Caldari Acheron Vanguard Armada The Shadow Ascension	Posted - 2006.10.16 15:52:00 - [46] Originally by: DeTox MinRohim According to some 3rd party apps, there is already a non-public skill (Is it on Sisi or something ?) : Warp Navigation Skill at navigating in warp. 10% Bonus to warp accuracy and 10% less max range from desired warp location per level. Training (with my current stats) Warp Navigation I (27 minutes, 8 seconds) Warp Navigation II (2 hours, 6 minutes, 22 seconds) Warp Navigation III (11 hours, 54 minutes, 52 seconds) Warp Navigation IV (2 days, 19 hours, 23 minutes, 57 seconds) Warp Navigation V (15 days, 21 hours, 15 minutes, 59 seconds) Total time: 19 days, 7 hours, 8 minutes, 19 seconds This skill would suck as a replacement for BM's 1) At max it would only give you "warp within 7.5km" because you'd only get 50% reduction in warp range at level 5. 7.5km is a long long way to fly when targetted by a gang. Nobody will like this. Just my 2.5 cents.
Dax Bandar Gallente Guiding Star The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2006.10.16 18:19:00 - [47] Originally by: lofty29 Buuhuu I didnt train my learning skills and I wanne be able to be invulnerable anywhere? I have all my advanced learning skills trained to 4 or better thanks. There have been many acceptable solutions already posted on this topic that do not require another needless skill to train. Go crawl back to your troll cave now.
Coran Ordus Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:06:00 - [48] Please no more rehashed BM ideas. (warp to 0km, skill to train, etc.) They have been shot down before. As to why it's so slow, it's due to the database. Each BM made by someone is a unique 3-d point with a name and some info. So each one requires a row in a db to track that info. (at least, that's what I've gathered from dev posts on the subject of implementation.) The thing about DBs is that they have to be consistent. A ton of effort is put into keeping the data in them 'correct'. What it works out to is the need to lock certain rows when they're being used. Preventing other people from using them. So now you have a system where no matter how fat the network pipe or how fast the disk drive, there are certain operations where you just have to queue up and wait your turn. These are called bottlenecks, and they're the bane of performance. Now, there are tricks DB makers have done to make it more efficient. Everyone can safely read a row at the same time, since no changes are made. But the instant someone wants to write to it, every single reader has to go wait until the writer is done. Which is why reading BMs causes some load, but isn't thaaat bad, but copying/writing them is brutally slow. This is why instas take up resources.
Gut Punch Gallente The Revenant	Posted - 2006.10.16 19:40:00 - [49] Originally by: Coran Ordus Please no more rehashed BM ideas. (warp to 0km, skill to train, etc.) They have been shot down before. What is wrong with a skill that allows you to warp closer to the gate/station? Look, this is a whole carrot vs stick problem. The carrot: Spend a little time and train another skill which speeds up your travel time. The stick: CCP restricts bookmark placement within 100km of gates/stations. While the carrot will reduce overall travel times, it will provide a method to reduce resource bottlenecks without hurting players. If CCP implements the stick, we all get the shaft. It will also fix the problem, however, you just ****ed off your player base. Gut Punch The Revenant
llIIIll	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:02:00 - [50] Originally by: Coran Ordus As to why it's so slow, it's due to the database. Each BM made by someone is a unique 3-d point with a name and some info. So each one requires a row in a db to track that info. (at least, that's what I've gathered from dev posts on the subject of implementation.) The thing about DBs is that they have to be consistent. A ton of effort is put into keeping the data in them 'correct'. What it works out to is the need to lock certain rows when they're being used. Preventing other people from using them. So now you have a system where no matter how fat the network pipe or how fast the disk drive, there are certain operations where you just have to queue up and wait your turn. These are called bottlenecks, and they're the bane of performance. Now, there are tricks DB makers have done to make it more efficient. Everyone can safely read a row at the same time, since no changes are made. But the instant someone wants to write to it, every single reader has to go wait until the writer is done. Which is why reading BMs causes some load, but isn't thaaat bad, but copying/writing them is brutally slow. This is why instas take up resources. This is in general true of databases but it doesn't really apply here. Nothing should be locking the database, the only modifications you can make are changing the name of a BM, deleting, and adding them. None of these need to lock the database to ensure data integrity. I suspect the lag is coming from some collection of the following mistakes: 1. Retransmitting all the bookmarks every time a client reconnects (could be avoided w/ caching/hashing) 2. Bad keys on the data (Based on the data exports I've seen from CCP this is possible) 3. Hitting the BM database anytime someone jumps to a new system to recalculate 'Jumps to Bookmark' (I'm not sure if CCP is doing this server side, I really hope not, but the market seems to do this server side, so who knows)

Coran Ordus Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:12:00 - [51] Originally by: Gut Punch Originally by: Coran Ordus Please no more rehashed BM ideas. (warp to 0km, skill to train, etc.) They have been shot down before. What is wrong with a skill that allows you to warp closer to the gate/station? Look, this is a whole carrot vs stick problem. The carrot: Spend a little time and train another skill which speeds up your travel time. The stick: CCP restricts bookmark placement within 100km of gates/stations. While the carrot will reduce overall travel times, it will provide a method to reduce resource bottlenecks without hurting players. If CCP implements the stick, we all get the shaft. It will also fix the problem, however, you just ****ed off your player base. The skill approach is identical to the warp at 0km approach. Everyone who isn't a total idiot will train it to 5. You just made everyone waste a month of training time, adding no variety or depth to the playerbase. New players _must_ spend this time training or they're dead ducks. Warp to 0km makes you too safe, encourages afk travel, and nerfs pirates too hard. And shrinks the universe. There are some decent ideas in the features & ideas forum (corp bookmarks, starmaps, etc.).
Coran Ordus Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2006.10.16 20:18:00 - [52] Originally by: llIIIll This is in general true of databases but it doesn't really apply here. Nothing should be locking the database, the only modifications you can make are changing the name of a BM, deleting, and adding them. None of these need to lock the database to ensure data integrity. I suspect the lag is coming from some collection of the following mistakes: 1. Retransmitting all the bookmarks every time a client reconnects (could be avoided w/ caching/hashing) 2. Bad keys on the data (Based on the data exports I've seen from CCP this is possible) 3. Hitting the BM database anytime someone jumps to a new system to recalculate 'Jumps to Bookmark' (I'm not sure if CCP is doing this server side, I really hope not, but the market seems to do this server side, so who knows) Hmm, good point. Although in theory, they may have put in locks to ensure game integrity. Meaning that while the DB won't be corrupt no matter what BMs you copy, it's best for everyone if the game always reflects a consistent state. Which it might not if you let the DB handle things at it's own speed. I also seem to recall there being a problem with running out of item indexes as well. I think only 16 bits were used, meaning they were running short. Thousands of BMs per char weren't helping. There's almost certainly a lot of stuff happening server-side that could be done quicker on the client (or at least cached). Problem being, clients are cheating, thieving, hacking, lying bastards who can't be trusted. I'd take lag over h4x any day.
Gut Punch Gallente The Revenant	Posted - 2006.10.16 21:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Coran Ordus Originally by: Gut Punch Originally by: Coran Ordus Please no more rehashed BM ideas. (warp to 0km, skill to train, etc.) They have been shot down before. What is wrong with a skill that allows you to warp closer to the gate/station? Look, this is a whole carrot vs stick problem. The carrot: Spend a little time and train another skill which speeds up your travel time. The stick: CCP restricts bookmark placement within 100km of gates/stations. While the carrot will reduce overall travel times, it will provide a method to reduce resource bottlenecks without hurting players. If CCP implements the stick, we all get the shaft. It will also fix the problem, however, you just ****ed off your player base. The skill approach is identical to the warp at 0km approach. Everyone who isn't a total idiot will train it to 5. You just made everyone waste a month of training time, adding no variety or depth to the playerbase. New players _must_ spend this time training or they're dead ducks. Warp to 0km makes you too safe, encourages afk travel, and nerfs pirates too hard. And shrinks the universe. There are some decent ideas in the features & ideas forum (corp bookmarks, starmaps, etc.). Do you have links to the proposals of corp bookmarks, starmaps, or others you think are worth while? I don't have all the facts and proposed solutions, but I think something needs to be done about the lag. I've seen too many of my corp mates lose ships to the lag and it just isn't worth fighting. Gut Punch The Revenant
bunghole1	Posted - 2006.10.16 22:53:00 - [54] Quote: why don't they make a complete set of bookmarks for all high sec instas in the game, pass it out to everyone, and delete any other bookmark within 30km of a gate? that should take care of a hell of a lot of duplicates, while still not ****ing off the pirates who rely on a hauler without instas for their money. or as i'd like to do a galactic insta initiative. but yeah, pirates hate instas Your right pirates would love it.Except that the crappy economies in most low sec and most 0.0 would get even more retarded than it is now. I bet 90% of Haulers would not even try anymore.
ArtemisEntreri Turbulent	Posted - 2006.10.16 23:08:00 - [55] To everyone proposing insta replacements, instas are borked And to answer the OP, because instas are absolutely lowest of the low priorities on the server because bm copying were causing a lot of lag on TQ.
Doc Brown Gallente Tyrell Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.17 05:06:00 - [56] Originally by: foolers Quote: Hmm.. is it even possible to move BM's into a seperate system that isn't as effected by size as the present SQL solution? What do you propose as an alternative to an sql database? How about a modified version of the Google File System (GFS) http://labs.google.com/papers/gfs.html _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.


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