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Kantos Dal'mak	Posted - 2006.10.15 19:56:00 - [1] ok ive been fooling around with some different possible builds, and the only thing i could come up with for destroyers is the anti-frigate role. so my question is- how good are destroyers at frigate killing? other question if i were to go destroyers/interdictors, what's a good setup for them? im fairly new to the game, but i kinda like how the flycatcher looks. thanks in advance -Kantos
Foulis Minmatar Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:11:00 - [2] look at my thread on this page about the 'end game' thrasher and then go one volley some inties ---- Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT!
Ice Conch Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:13:00 - [3] right click, refine, sell mins, save up to buy a cruiser. Not very useful without some sp. Dictors are useful for 0.0 alliances. This is Samirol's alt.
Kantos Dal'mak	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:16:00 - [4] ok thanks guys this was slightly hypothetical, so thanks for taking it seriously -Kantos
Yamaeda	Posted - 2006.10.15 20:17:00 - [5] To answer your first question: Very. 8 guns instead of a frigates 3-4 can often instapop a frigate, they dont fire quite as often but even rail can track fast frigates due to ship bonus. You'll like them, until you face something bigger. :) /Y
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:05:00 - [6] Think the issue is that there are too few destroiers and all more or les sthe same stuff. 4 new destroiers with different settings like an EW destoier could be fun. Another idea, but this requires a noob question answered. Does defenders intercept only missiles incommingat you or at your frineds as well? IF the later so destroiers coudl be used for teh same thing they are in RL... fleet defense. A destroier that could fit several rocket launchers would be cool with bonus to defenders.
JustBlaze	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:14:00 - [7] oooo defender uberness^^
trimdonite	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:19:00 - [8] destroyers are made of paper, i wouldnt solo with one, but i wouldnt underestimate them in a gang, they would tear frigs to pieces
Kery Nysell Caldari Nysell Incorporated	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:20:00 - [9] Alas, the Defenders only target missiles that are locked on you ... and do a crappy job at it, on top of that. I had thought about a "screen" of Defender-ships too ... maybe if we could lock incomming missiles and then designate them as targets for the Defenders, but it's not possible at the moment.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.17 12:30:00 - [10] If at least defenders could target all incomming missles into your party.. Anyway I think destroiers would be far more usable if there were more variations. At least 3 per race. Its rather ridiculous that there re more BB (sorry but I must use the correct abreviation for Batleship :P ) variatiosn than destroiers that are from logic supposed to be a more common ship (scince form logic smaller ships should always be more common).
Saundra Fayid	Posted - 2006.10.17 13:25:00 - [11] I use my destroyers to kill ALL frig class vessels and I have an instalock pod killing version as well Thrasher has, thus far, tended to be best for me.
Aerich Vishkan	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:07:00 - [12] I love my Thrasher, but would like to see another Destroyer that could put some kind of a tank on, maybe Destroyer lvl 3 or 4 unlocks a new Teir I Destroyer. Destroyers essentially have the same defense as Frigates, without the ability to outrun incoming fire (much bigger sig radius than a frig, and appropriatley slower). Thus it falls to pieces way to easily to be of much use solo in low/no sec or beyond lvl 1 missions.
Angelic Resolution The Arcanum	Posted - 2006.10.17 16:12:00 - [13] A friend of mine gave me a rather amusing setup for destroyers, it was basically 4 small nos and 4 weapons of your choice.. tried it once and laughed my arse off for a while.
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2006.10.17 17:58:00 - [14] Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 17/10/2006 18:02:19 Destroyers are extremely useful in groups to protect against frigates, they can track small fast ships even with railguns and have extreme ranges (+50%). They also tear up t2 frigates (cov ops,inty,af). Small ships with webbers/scramblers/and ew modules can wreak havoc on larger ships in a fleet battle and even a single destroyer can remove large amounts of frigates from a battle because they can insta pop anything but the af's. They do amazing damage even on larger ships however if you get attacked by a cruiser you will most likely lose due to your larger sig radius compared to a frigate. Just dont bother even fitting a repper and stick close to a battleship with a large remote repper (chose a BC with a medium repper if possible since it better to use up a medium sized hardpoint on a BC than a large sized hardpoint on a BS in a fleet). If you want to solo lvl 2 missions or lvl 3 and under complex's then a Destroyer will allow you to finish faster than any other ship (since you most often end up fighting other frigates and destroyers can alwayse insta pop mission spawned frigs).
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.10.17 20:31:00 - [15] I might be lacking the needed gunnery skills but I have never had a use for my destroyer. My Kestel smokes Worlds Colide far faster than my commerant ever could. I don't know about them. I guess with a high number of SP in gunnery they would rock out. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Abye Caldari Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.17 23:01:00 - [16] Destryoers are good at what they are made for, pick off frigates in gang combat. A Cormorant with Tech2 150 Rails and Spike can hit frigates at crazy distances (Well, from frigate point of view ). Just be prepared to always chicken out when an eagle locks on you.
FFGR Maza Nostra Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.10.17 23:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Abye Destryoers are good at what they are made for, pick off frigates in gang combat. A Cormorant with Tech2 150 Rails and Spike can hit frigates at crazy distances (Well, from frigate point of view ). Just be prepared to always chicken out when an eagle locks on you. I would rather be in a Harpy tbh than a t2 fitted Cormorant (personal opinion) _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Abye Caldari Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.10.18 01:54:00 - [18] Originally by: FFGR Originally by: Abye Destryoers are good at what they are made for, pick off frigates in gang combat. A Cormorant with Tech2 150 Rails and Spike can hit frigates at crazy distances (Well, from frigate point of view ). Just be prepared to always chicken out when an eagle locks on you. I would rather be in a Harpy tbh than a t2 fitted Cormorant (personal opinion) No tracking bonus on Harpy, and my gunnery skills are far from being the best.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.10.18 02:20:00 - [19] Dessies are good for drone popping too, but drones will pop you pretty fast as well. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Rilder Caldari black viper corp	Posted - 2006.10.18 04:38:00 - [20] (on the cormy pov[My cormy is my baby])They seem to have better defenses and med slots the frigates so to me they seem like they'd be a real good ship for battle, but from what ive heard is there sig radius and slower speed makes them easy to target and hit which makes them week but other then that they seem pretty awesome
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.10.18 04:47:00 - [21] Imo if T1 destoyers get some HP tweaking and maysoem some slot reconfiguration they will be way much better . I still think the cormorant should have benn a missle boat. "There is no such thing as innocence , only different degrees of guilt"
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.18 06:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Imo if T1 destoyers get some HP tweaking and maysoem some slot reconfiguration they will be way much better . I still think the cormorant should have benn a missle boat. Yes,they need a HP boost so they can actually survive long enough vs. Frigs to kill some. They are anti-frigate ships, but if a Frigate sees them first, chances are the destroyer is going down.
Sev Renard Gallente Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.10.18 07:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Dessies are good for drone popping too, but drones will pop you pretty fast as well. 'tis what I use my cormorant for. Slap some 150mm II's on there, iridium charges, pick off heavy drones attacking your fleet.... then again, I have to stay alligned to survive more than a nasty look _________________________________________ I wonder which will come first, my portrait, or a sig hijack...
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.18 10:19:00 - [24] Edited by: Polinus on 18/10/2006 10:25:15 How much a shield/armor boost do you guys think would be needed to make the dest balanced? Since they are almost 2 times the signature of frigates they should have about 2 times more shiled .. i think.. so a 600-650 hp shield would be .. good. Also a possible solution would be an extra middle and more CPU to make it more EW viable defense? BTW.. almost forget.. please a boost on detection range is quite logical. Otherwis ethe 50% boost on weapons range looses a little bit of it's potential.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.18 10:26:00 - [25] Almost forgeot. Boost in detection range. otherwise the 50% weapon range bonus... is .. little bit off..
Khetchi	Posted - 2006.10.18 10:55:00 - [26] Lets put things into perspective. Modern frigates ARE destroyers, albiet limited use destroyers. They were originally called "Escort Destroyers" and their main job was as picket ships for fleets and convoys. For those who don't know wat a picket ship does, it pretty much holds the enemy's attention while the fleet/convoy gets away. In the 70's "Escort Destroyers" were renamed "Frigates" for political reasons that are rather complicated to get into here, but their build as a light destroyer and their role as escort ships remains effectively unchanged. Eve apparently went at this backwords. They had the "frigate" as in the older system as the lightest "Ship of the Wall" (IOW the lightest of the heavy warships.) Destroyers appear to be an afterthought whose sole purpose is to have a light, cheap ship to allow people to practice multiple gun tactics before spending the massive ISK for a battlecruiser or battleship. The limitations destroyers have in the game are pretty effective at preventing them from becoming overpowered as a light platform. Imagine, for instance, how unbalancing a Crucifier would be with 8 weapon turrents, 4 medium slots, and 5 low slots. It would be way too powerful for it's intended role as a cheap "noobie" ship... It would basically be a Prophesy with small guns and faster top speed. If you think of an Eve destroyer as a frigate with great firepower it's a good intermediate ship, but if you try to use it as a light cruiser you're gonna be disappointed.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.18 11:09:00 - [27] You are using the ONE definition of frigates and destroiers. Many countries have completely different definitions. Currently destroiers are the ships used into fleet defense. Hunting Submarines and anti air defense. Frigates are non fleet ships, used for smal presence and patrol forces, and usually cannjot keep up in speed with teh rest of fleet). Some countries have the exact oposition definition of destroiers and frigates :) On other hand URSS built destroiers as anti ship missile boats capable of striking US carriers as an Hit an run like hell weapon. So I think destroiers should have far more variety in game! Also a little bit more defensive power is needed because they are indeed reeealy easy target. Not a huge change.. just a little bit. Anyway Eve definition of ship roles is no where near teh naval definition. BB on Naval definition should be things completely imune to Cruiser weaponry and lone kings of sea, unmatched to anyone at direct combat. Only drawback being stiting ducks to carriers. Naval combat is FAR more interesting than EVE combat. For example on roles. The main combatants (WWI and WW2 for example) were the BB. BB were imune to any gun fire form anything other than another CV or BC. But torpedoes, that could be lauched form even small ships were able to kill them.. but were so short range that were hard to be deployed. Fleet combat would be about cruisers trying to protec BB from enemy smalller ships getting into BB torpedoing range. While the smaller ships would fight to be able to enter on enemy formation and avoid enemy doing the same. At that time, destroiers were great Torpedo delivery weapons since they were fast and maneuverabe. A destroier that reached a BB at 2 Km range would have a high probability of killing the BB. But everything on field was employed to prevent that. Carriers screwed all this when planes can simply pop up form skuy and drop a torpedo right next to the BB. Eve combat unfortunately is too linear.
Khetchi	Posted - 2006.10.18 13:20:00 - [28] Polinus: Yes, It's the Blue-water Navy definition. I didn't go into the Brown-Water Navy definitions because there simply isn't enough continuity between the different brown-water navies to lock onto a single definition. What one country calls a destroyer another will call a corvette. But in Blue Water Navies (which there are five if I remember correctly) the types are pretty standardized. Destroyers (and frigates) are basically designed as escort vessels. Although there are some very powerful destroyers like the Spruance and Krivac classes, their basic function remains as escort vessels. Cruisers are designed for independant deployment. There are cruiser classes that are smaller than their destroyer counterparts in the same navies, but they have the endurance to operate completely independantly of fleets or battlegroups. They range from light cruisers designed for scouting missions, strike cruisers (otherwise known as attack cruisers) designed to enter enemy waters and attack targets, and heavy cruisers designed for firepower and bombardment (technically, US battleships were heavy cruisers.) Modern frigates were designed primarily to escort civilian convoys in wartime. They were made as cheaply as possible (they weren't designed to actually survive an engagement, merely to slow down the attackers) and were given just enough firepower that the enemy couldn't simply ignore them and attack the civilian ships. Contrary to what many people assume, it isn't the size of the ship that determines the class, but the mission(s) it was designed to perform. There have been relatively huge and powerful frigates, as well as tiny, lightly armed cruisers.
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.10.18 14:37:00 - [29] destroyers in EVE need some buffs honestly, more hitpoints a bigger power grid and cpu and some more slots in the mid and low. course the AF lobby will never allow destroyers to get the buff that they have due.
Yamaeda	Posted - 2006.10.18 15:14:00 - [30] I like the destroyer, it's a sweet ship that's a little underpowered and very underappreciated. It's good against frigates, as should be, and rather bad against ships bigger than itself. A cruiser has a chance against a BC, but a destroyer has very little chance against a cruiser, and that's the main part that'd need some buffing. Although you might need some armor/shield twinking i'd say destroyers need to be smaller instead. Smaller as in reduced signature. With their current power vs weapon balance 100m is simply too big. It's a 2,5 times bigger than a frigate and it certainly isn't 2,5 times more powerful. Change the destroyer to 80m signature! The frigate vs destroyer balance would be the same, but it'd get a buff against larger ships/missiles where i feel the main imbalance lies. What'ya think? /Y
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.18 16:46:00 - [31] That, or increase speed slighlty. they should be consistently faster than cruisers.
Tarazed Aquilae	Posted - 2006.10.18 18:23:00 - [32] Back in the (real world) old days, battleships were the ultimate naval unit. With their heavy guns and incredibly thick armor they were capable of simply brushing any lesser ship aside. The problem was that battleships were hideously expensive. No nation could afford to build more than a handful and many smaller nations would risk financial ruin if they tried to build even one battleship. This made a battleship into a weapon that the admirals were unwilling to risk lightly. (Sound familiar.) And there was a new weapon, the torpedo. A single torpedo hit probably wouldnÆt sink a battleship, but it would cause damage. and that damage might take months, or even years, to repair. Multiple torpedoes could easily sink a battleship too. So, some nations began to experiment with the torpedo boat. This was a cheap, fast, and easy to build boat which could launch a few torpedoes. These boats werenÆt usually capable of staying with a fleet on the high seas. But they could operate in costal areas, hiding near the shore, and rushing out to attack any battleship that got close. These cheap and easy to replace boats could potentially sink battleships that cost a fortune and took years to manufacture. Obviously something needed to be done about this. And the Torpedo Boat Destroyer was born. A Torpedo Boat Destroyer was a ship that was big enough to keep up with the fleet and small enough to steam into coastal areas. It had small guns that were just big enough to wreck a torpedo boat. Soon these ships simply became known as destroyers. Destroyers didnÆt have the firepower to take on a cruiser, much less a battleship. They didnÆt have the armor to survive a cruisers guns either. But against a wave of torpedo boats or small craft they would be devastating. That is the role destroyers play in Eve. They can quickly kill the frigates (torpedo boats) that can lock down and slowly kill battleships and cruisers. But they are a big target for battleships and donÆt have the armor cruisers do. Back in real life, destroyers were given torpedoes so they could also attack the big ships. Then they were given depth charges and sonar to deal with the threat of submarines. When aircraft became a threat, destroyers were given anti aircraft guns. (And their main guns were given AA capability as well.) By WWII, destroyers had become the backbone of the Navy.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.19 04:49:00 - [33] tier 2 destroyer name here 6 hi slots 3 med slots 3 low slots - 6 turret hardpoints 2 missle hardpoints - 200 something cpu 70 something pg - 80m sig radius 34 km targeting range 5 max targets locked 8-10 sensor strength - 270 m/s speed whatever cpu/pg mods it takes to fit 2 torpedo launchers 1.05 multiplier for ship maximum volicity and torpedo damage per destroyer level 1.10 multiplier for small projectile turret optimal range per destroyer level 1.25 multiplier for all turret reload times fast attack boat and general battleship buster. probably totaly unbalanced but you get the idea. "so you though that i was just a puny destroyer? well say hello to my oversized friends" FA-WHOOOSH starts playing heavy metal music as he watches a cruiser go up in flames --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.10.19 06:27:00 - [34] Destroyers suck and are easy targets, you should always engage them when you are in a T2 frigate.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:15:00 - [35] The issue is.. in real life torpedoe boats were no match for a destroier. Not even 3 or 4 of them. But in Eve the advan ced frigates can crush a destroier. So we need a) little bit better destroierd (current ones maybe but much betterwould be new ones enabled by level IV fdestroier skill) b)t2 destroiers
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.19 10:54:00 - [36] I almost forgot. I thing 10-15 m2 of drone space would be a good adition to destroiers (would in fact match with current RL destroiers usage pattern)
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.19 13:30:00 - [37] i just want to fit a seige launcher to my thrasher. it could converth them into fast attack boats instead of screen ships. keeping both around would be cool. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec
Galen Silas Gallente Digital assassins	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:00:00 - [38] Destroyers will be a lot better once they get the HP increase, and i amnot sure if they geta nother bonus on top of that but i think CCP realized that the detroyers played a pretty short role and they were to fragile for any serious combat, so this should help them out a bit, i also think each destroyer should get about a 6 or 10 unit pg increase.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:08:00 - [39] No NO.. The HP boos will finnaly kill it!! HP boost is better for ones with already a lot of HP. Now the destroiers won't even be abe to pop frigates. But.. as for now.. I made some number crunshing. And Destroiers can make more damage per ISK spent than a Cruiser T1. Although they die too fast. So large grups os destroiers could be a very funny fleet. Since 10 fully armed destroiers cost about 17M and with that force ypu can pretty much jump into 2 cruiser POP one (combined alpha of 3300 damage :P) and run away loosing at most 1 dest. :P
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:09:00 - [40] Edited by: Rafein on 23/10/2006 15:11:45 to answer your question, Yes, they are amazing frigate killers. If they fire first. They die fast if the frigate fires first. But it seems with the HP buff coming, Destroyers and BC's were going to get more than the proposed 50% boost, so they may be able to withstand a bit of getting shot at. but yeah, they could also use a nice 10% bonus to fittings and cap as well
Khetchi	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:29:00 - [41] I like the Eve destroyer as well, but I would definately like to see more variety. The destroyer's role is pretty well defined, it's designed to kill frigates and drones... and it does a **** good job of it. The problem most people have with Destroyers is they train Destroyer to level 1 and expect it to be able to insta-pop enemy frigates. Then they go up against an inty or af and wonder what happened. Train destroyer to level 5 and you have the range, firepower, and turrent speed to turn almost any frigate into rubble in a very short time. The problem is that with it's hig sigh and slow speed, the destroyer is simply no match for anything with a medium gun and half-decent armor. A cheap cruiser has very little trouble killing an uber-fitted destroyer. Destroyers require dedication in order to train the SP for and obtaining the skills needed to fly it effectively. It can be frustrating because although everyone can give you really good advice on frigate and cruiser tactics, there are just not very many people who spend the time working out the best destroyer tactics so there is very little advice to be had. My dream? A new Amarr destroyer with 2 medium power slots.
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 15:35:00 - [42] We would need at least a second type of T1 dest for each race and a non interdictor T2 dest for each reace as well. Also dest are udnerused because their skill branch stops there.. helps nothing on getting any other skill
Yamaeda	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:12:00 - [43] I love the destroyer, it's a fun little ship, but just like the BC they suffer from only 1 choice. Make a Tier 2 destroyer, preferrably +1 slots and slightly larger, right in between current destroyer and cruiser but with the same focus on small turrets. A little slower, but able to tank some, to be able to do it's role while under fire. Or, if fitted differently able to easier fit a full set of the biggest small turrets. +10-20MW (caldari - amarr) +40-20cpu (caldari - amarr) +1 slot, (low: caldari, minnie - mid: amarr, gal) Would be fun. :) /Y
Polinus	Posted - 2006.10.23 17:41:00 - [44] It can keep the current HP if they get boosted speed (about 30 m/s more of base speed)
pewpewpewpewBOOOM	Posted - 2006.10.23 20:27:00 - [45] Originally by: Polinus Carriers screwed all this when planes can simply pop up form skuy and drop a torpedo right next to the BB. NERF IRL CARRIERS! Destroyers seem to be most useful in fleet situations, where they can pick and choose their frig targets while being less likely to be targeted by anything. Dictors are kind of inefficient for this sort of thing imho, they're much more expensive than t1's and not THAT much more effective. If you wanted to spend real money on a frig killer, I'd personally go with caldari HACs or minnie recons.
Jones Maloy Minmatar	Posted - 2006.10.24 00:43:00 - [46] i was really dissappointed to see the minmatar interdictor was just a sphere deployer. i want a 8 x 280mm arty, mwd, jaming, nanodestroyer. a full rack of 280's would be sweet. from my experience a destroyer can be taken to half sheilds in 1 second by a cruiser rat. it took me 15 mins pounding on it with 7 250's to kill it. --- WCS Nerf boycott low-sec

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